Leaked CDC document exposes Biden administration’s COVID-19 cover-up

Quote the paragraph or sentence to which you wish to reply. Then respond with supporting reasons when possible. Ex:

'The deliberate promotion of false advice by US health authorities helped drive a massive resurgence of the pandemic, with cases now surging 50 percent per week.'

'In the leaked report, CDC scientists call for an urgent reversal of this catastrophic guidance, declaring in bold, “universal masking is essential to reduce transmission of the Delta variant.”'

The decision to lift restrictions was premature and dangerous. Yet it was and is supported by BOTH sections of the ruling class. Damon's charge of 'the deliberate promotion of false advice by US health authorities' is extremely grave and damning. It bespeaks a policy of social murder.

This charge requires a substantive, principled response.

The deliberate promotion of false advice by US health authorities helped drive a massive resurgence of the pandemic, with cases now surging 50 percent per week.

It was not "false" advice.  The advice was for vaccinated people, who are at almost no risk from the disease, even if they get it.  Absolutely all of the data reinforces the statement "we are in a pandemic of the unvaccinated".  The ERs are filling with unvaccinated people.  The morgues are filling with unvaccinated people.

If people are too stubborn/stupid/politically devoted/whatever to go get a free shot just like the one we all got for polio, then that is their decision.  I wish they would make a different one, but I wish a lot of people made a lot of decisions differently.  It is not the responsibility of the US Govt to force all of us to change behavior because some people are determined to put themselves at great risk.

'It was not "false" advice.  The advice was for vaccinated people, who are at almost no risk from the disease, even if they get it.'

I read the piece as a warning that 'there are 35,000 symptomatic COVID-19 infections every week among vaccinated people.'

Of course the fully vaccinated are able to be infected; that's not the point. The point is that the body's response to the vaccination is to produce antibodies which fight the virus so that although infected, one ought not to become seriously sick. The word 'symptomatic' is somewhat elastic, which introduces a ambiguity [as in degree of symptoms among the vaccinated] into the statement. But even so, that doesn't contradict the point that infections do occur, and that the vaccinated can transmit the infection.

While the virus may for the time turn from the fully vaccinated, there is concern that it will attack not only the un-vaccinated, but also the partially vaccinated. There, it may have a platform from vaccine-resistant strands may develop. Needed is a global strategy to eradicate this virus.

I read the piece as a warning that 'there are 35,000 symptomatic COVID-19 infections every week among vaccinated people.'

This is actually a very low number.

The vaccine is not a guarantee that a person will not get sick or have symptoms. Generally, vaccinated people are protected against the virus. But breakthrough infections or reinfections can and do occur. But such occurrences are relatively low and many who do experience infection generally have milder symptoms or are even asymptomatic. This is not new. The real danger comes from variants where the vaccine is less effective. Also from the unvaccinated who may serve as walking laboratories for the virus to mutate into different strains in which the vaccine may be less effective or even ineffective. The Delta variant is an example of this.

It's too bad so many folks don't understand or refuse to to see, that there is no such thing as 100% efficacy with vaccines.

The Delta variant is an example of this.

Yep, which originated in India.   Completely out of the control of the US or any other country.

Too many folks are looking for a silver bullet to kill this COVID threat and there simply isn't one.   This virus is now added to our annual virus threats just like the regular "Flu" that has been around for over a hundred years and it is never going away either.

Vaccinated or not some folks will catch it.  Vaccinated or not some will get better and some will die.   Just like the Flu.   People need to start accepting it for what it is and stop looking for a magic pill to fix it all.   That magic pill may be found someday but it isn't today.

"Get busy living or get busy dying."

- Andy Dufresne

What gets me is that many people also don't understand how science in general works. When the pandemic started, we had little to no information about covid. Science had to learn about it and deal with it in real time. As science learned more, guidelines and recommendations changed to reflect the new information and circumstances. This caused the scientifically inept to mistrust science, direct anger and hatred at science and especially Dr. Fauci, which resulted in people spreading misinformation about covid and/or the vaccine, refusing to be vaccinated, and hold a general animosity towards science which still persists in the country today. It's a sad state of affairs and doesn't speak we of our country. 

What cover up under the Biden Administration?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

'What cover up ...?

My guess is that the author's title refers to this:

'The secret report contradicts nearly every public statement by the White House over the course of the past two months. Bringing together a broad range of public research—including some that was previously unpublished—the report warns that there are 35,000 symptomatic COVID-19 infections every week among vaccinated people.'

Sure enough -- infections appear to be rising. I take it we can agree that this is not a good thing.

Edit: Include graph.

What is the source of the graph?

Microsoft Bing. Search COVID-19 statistics.

Wow. A re-direct. Whatever comes of a direct response? Bad form, Trotsky's S'.

Really?

A link is required.

That way 'our reader's don't have to wade through the CDC

or some banned source to see where you found your chart.

Guys:

Sorry but I discovered this just now.

Microsoft Bing is the source of the graph.

Go to bing.com and type in those parameters and you get the chart.
The graph that comes up IS on the Microsoft bing search engine page.

Note the normal All/News/Images/Videos/etc options at the top.

I can't send you to that specific graph since the data is always updating.
Below the graphs, you get a source list for the graphed information.

Sorry for the confusion. I thought this would be clear when I indicated 'Microsoft Bing' as the source.

Following the graphs and related information, you get all the normal stuff -- hits from the CDC, John Hopkins, several map sites, several news sites -- it's all listed as the 'hits' you get from a regular search.

When you go to Microsoft Bing and enter --> COVID-19 statistics, that is what you get.
The URL line [for the moment, at least] displayed

bing

A shortened form is ... is.gd . Still, you get the [most recently] revised version of the chart.
Change it to your state, or go 'United States' for the latest national stats.

Edit: I just checked the 'links.' The first [long] one didn't take me to the page. The short one [based on the first] did. No idea why.

I hope this is satisfactory. Breaking protocol wasn't my intent.

CB:

Please see my explanation of this in 1.2.6 ...
Trust this makes sense and helps.

No problem, thanks.

Excuse me, but Trosky's Spectre, what stock do you put into the actions of President Biden, a man in his late 70's and vaccinated, going about "town' and business setting without a mask? Do you contend that knowing the dire consequences of going maskless (not even masking up on his earlier trip to the G7)., that Biden did so to purposely deceive his own nation?

Do you know how indulgent that sounds? Do you realize how much death is in Biden's past and recent history? What exactly are you saying about this president? Is this a deliberate manipulation of the facts? Or, do you think so little of us on NT?

It is one thing to want your aspirations to come to some fruition in your lifetime, it is another thing to use similar tactics as those you criticize in order to advance toward a new goal.

‘Do you know how indulgent that sounds?’

Even if your reply is not serious, it raises a serious point requiring a serious reply. 

When we interpret and explain with reference to perception and motives, we invariably classify men as noble or ignoble. We then find that as a rule, the noble are defrauded, and the ignoble are victorious. That simply isn’t doing good work. History is not a morality tale and it ought not to be treated as such. Personal motives – mine, yours, Biden’s Trump’s – are only of very secondary importance.

The real questions to be asked are, ‘what driving forces stand behind the motives of men.’ And it must be asked ‘what are the historical and social causes which transform themselves into these motives in the minds of men who act.’ So to what pressures was the CDC subjected first by the Trump administration and then by Biden’s, and in each case – why? 

What socio-economic forces led BOTH administrations criminally to encourage ‘measures that they knew would lead to a resurgence of the pandemic?’ Damon’s closing word answers this by saying that the pandemic response has followed not science but Wall Street.

But Damon’s piece does not opt between Capitalist parties. He notes that whistleblower Rick Bright indicated that ‘public health officials were fully aware of the emerging threat of COVID-19 by early January 2020.’ Also see the confidence with which Damon writes:

‘Future whistleblowers will show the CDC knew almost everything in the newly released report months ago, based on the publicly available data cited by Feigl-Ding and the World Socialist Web Site.’

Here, the question which forces itself on our minds is, ‘what, why and how did objective conditions produce essentially the same response under both administrations.’ I contend that this commonality can be explained solely by the hostile yet necessary alliance of BOTH ruling class sections as they are arrayed against the proletarian class.

Damon reminds us that two months past, the WSWS told us that:

'In a rational society, the reduction of COVID-19 cases would be used to strengthen protections ahead of what public health experts warn will be a new resurgence in the fall. But the Biden administration is squandering what health officials call a temporary reprieve to abandon measures to monitor and contain the disease.'

Time will give this statement painful vindication. Meanwhile, the WSWS, its supporters, and yours truly will articulate the DEMAND that this virus be ERADICATED. Were you half as progressive as you'd like us to think, you'd be onboard with this and affirm our demand for closure of schools, on-line learning and closure of all non-essential work places until this happy condition is achieved.

Were you half as progressive as you'd like us to think, you'd be onboard with this and affirm our demand for closure of schools, on-line learning and closure of all non-essential work places until this happy condition is achieved.

Whatever factors in my discussions give you the image that I am some 'lock and stock' progressive?! To be clear. I am Christian, Homosexual, Black American, Veteran, Old—er, Pragmatist, Realist, and the remainder Progressive + Conservative, irrespective of order. Those are a partial list of my intersectionalities. 

Truth, rightness, and peace (as much as it lies in me) rules the path I cut through life (and make comment) towards.

Incidentally, I can have appreciation for conservatives and conservatism. I simply will not accept lies and half-baked ideas and compellings from this bulk group (takeover!) of uncompromising republicans/conservatives.

Please note the nuances (above).

Actually Trotsky's S, your reply attempts to not see the man, Joe Biden over the position of leader, even though President Biden 'intersects' the office through a life time of service. I conclude that in @2 paragraph one is a case of begging the question.

Moreover, as far as 'isms' go in the case of SARS-2 and its destructive efficacies, the U.S. dropping out of its preeminence (second to none) over this pandemic would be seen as a failure of capitalism and the nation. The vaccination programs were designed to work and resolve our national grief and restore faith in government, and restoration of national financial stability. We simply may not be able to make the drastic shift you aspire to at this time. Does not mean we can never do it-but we are not in the best position as a nation to 'unpack and change horses' in this rapidly changing stream.

'... your reply attempts to not see the man, Joe Biden...'

Dear CB:

I didn't see the article as being about President Biden, not primarily at any rate.

The name ‘Biden’ is referenced exactly 12 times where this article appears on the WSWS. Of those, seven refer to his administration. Of the remaining 5, one accompanies his photo [on the originating website but is not included here]. Another refers to those who voted for Biden based on a ‘follow the science’ pledge.

Of the article's remaining 3 ‘Biden’ references, one is based on his July 22 claim that vaccinated persons won’t get COVID. The next occurs in the following paragraph which notes that his claim is rebutted by CDC data ‘definitely proving the opposite.’ The final ‘Biden’ reference attributes to him his ‘take your mask off, you’ve earned the right.’

I don't take President Biden to be the article's 'center of gravity.' That said, we are aware of the President's career. He was elevated 4 decades ago in the attempt to peel off more moderate elements from the Republican Party. In other words, Joe Biden's political career was initiated on the premise that he was sufficiently 'right' as to appeal to at least some Republicans.

Given the trajectory of the emerging fascist movement, it isn't exactly clear to me how any of this makes President Biden the choice for navigator at a time when the ship of state is rolling onto its starboard side.

[I]t isn't exactly clear to me how any of this makes President Biden the choice for navigator at a time when the ship of state is rolling onto its starboard side.

What choice shall you present for us to consider? Share with us the Socialist Party strategic planning outline for ending SARS-2 in the U. S. A. —if only to be celebrated and rewarded for its efforts with honor and recognition.

In this game, put your palms in the 'dirt.'

Time will give this statement painful vindication. Meanwhile, the WSWS, its supporters, and yours truly will articulate the DEMAND that this virus be ERADICATED.

Utopia, not possible.  Even Smallpox & Polio have resistant strains and flareups. 

And that's after 60 plus years of vaccinations.

The WSWS and it's supporters will not likely see this in their lifetimes.

CB:

You've rejected this already.

When you brushed off an entire continent the other day with 'they've got to get their own act together' or some similarly meaning phrase, you indicated that you have no interest in a global response. Nothing short of a sustained, uniform, scientifically based and socially funded global strategy will eradicate this virus. I doubt that there is one person in your Party who supports the closure of schools, the retention of remote learning, rigorous testing and contact tracing, mandatory universal [global] inoculation, closure of all non-essential work places with pay from pandemic profits, etc. President Biden won't support this . And unless or until you're willing directly to challenge Kapital's rule over the pandemic response , you won't support such a plan. By way of contrast, the SEP never left those landmarks. You can peruse various statements from the WSWS coronavirus pandemic topic page. But from what you've said [to say nothing of what I've said] there's no point.

You once made the point that some of us have done quite well and are comfortable with what this [Capitalist] system has given us. You're a good guy, CB; you're a good guy who is not anywhere near ready for the kind of class challenge and change that we're facing.

I've been riding you harder than I ought, CB, and for that I can only ask your apology.

On another matter, you noted recently that my writing joins urgency with an economy of words. That, Sir, is high praise. You have my thanks.

Thank you for the seeing me as "a good guy." Yet, you are begging the question x 2 a this point:

1. @2  Excuse me, but Trosky's Spectre, what stock do you put into the actions of President Biden, a man in his late 70's and vaccinated, going about "town' and business setting without a mask? Do you contend that knowing the dire consequences of going maskless (not even masking up on his earlier trip to the G7)., that Biden did so to purposely deceive his own nation?
2. @2.1.4  What choice shall you present for us to consider?

You consistently (of recent) remark on the global scale of achieving 'world socialism' without any explanation how you plan to root out capitalism in the U. S. A! I would like to understand how your 'league' plans to remove our two party system in our lifetimes, because both parties will fight to survive. Please proceed.

As for Africa. . . that's a red-herring outside of this monumental, insurmountable, dilemma socialism has in our country. Against odds, merits, and misunderstandings. I just don't see it. How using SARS-2 is the opportunistic opening that gets you all there!

Back later. . . .

The persistence of these illnesses doesn’t argue the impossibility of their eradication. The circumstances, conditions and reasons for their persistence must rather be identified.

Poliomyelitis [for example] is endemic only to Nigeria, Pakistan and Afghanistan. In some regions of Afghanistan [also for example] inoculation has been resisted on religious grounds. In Nigeria, an Islamic fatwa was issued against its use in the country’s North. It was not resistance to fighting polio; but anti-vaccination movements are a venue to channel suspicion against Western aid. A number of vaccination workers in that country were shot for that reason.

In the US, no poliomyelitis cases have originated in 40+ years, though infected persons have entered [the last in ’93?]. Still, a US anti-vaccination movement has presented. If 97% effective, the Salk vaccine had issues and was replaced. Even so, Jonas Salk, born into humble circumstances, could have made billions [7 billion, says Forbes] from his vaccine. He refused to do this. Asked by Edward R. Murrow about patent ownership, Salk replied, ‘well, the people, I would say. There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?’

Salk’s sentiment is not shared at this late-stage of Capitalist development. Patent rights are retained and distribution of vaccines is subjected to the profit motive not only at the cost of human life, but with the result that more walking labs will develop ever more virulent and successful mutations.

Crucial to grasp is that behind ‘impossible to eradicate’ stands the demand to produce profits by coercing hundreds of millions in the US and billions globally into factories and workplaces where they face exposure to a deadly contagion. Kapital has no alternative but to weaponize this virus with its successive mutations against the global population.

Why should we agree?

Dear CB:

I’ve been involved in an online protest which has prevented me from replying sooner. That said, several points are to be addressed.

First: I have no idea to what event you are referring re: President Biden's mask-less downtown stroll.

Second: how, pray tell, can Africa be a ‘red herring?’ You’ve heard of the South African variant. You’ve also heard of the India variant. You’ve heard of the Brazilian variant. We now have the Eta, Iota and Kappa variants. And there is the Lambda [Peruvian] mutation. If anything is to be learned it is that no part of the world is irrelevant. I direct you to note the word ‘ global ’ in ‘global pandemic.’ Global pandemic means that NO part of the world is irrelevant or a ‘red herring.’ I can’t grasp how you, an intelligent man, could suppose otherwise.

Third: I have stated in posts on multiple threads – what is required. You know this. In addition to universal, global inoculation, there must be non-pharmaceutical interventions to end this accursed pandemic – masking, testing, contract tracing, isolation, and the closure of schools and all non-essential businesses.

Fourth: socialism offers not fixed set of standards, but is instead the means to find solutions. The changing environment, the evolution of new mutations, the advance of scientific understanding, the availability of resources, the conditions needed to implement measures as those in point three – only an evolving pandemic response can redress evolving pandemic conditions. Kapital can't do that. All Kapital can do is order the working class back into unsafe factories to generate more wealth for the ownership class. And Kapital stands ready and willing to use all means at its disposal to coerce a reluctant world to do just that.

Why should the world agree?

Lastly, a word on ‘intersectionalities.’ These things don’t constitute one a ‘progressive.’ Elaine Chao is an arch-reactionary. She was Secretary of Labor under Bush and Secretary of Transport under Trump. Is she any less a reactionary because she is Asian-American, or because she is a woman? Chao is only the latest grotesque example of intertwined US corporations and the very government ‘regulators’ responsible for monitoring them! She has supported many reactionary campaigns, having held numerous, high-level government positions as well as Fortune 500 posts.

So one can be a reactionary Asian [as Chao], a reactionary woman [also as Chao], a reactionary black [as the late Herman Cain who succumbed to the pandemic that doesn't exist] or a reactionary gay [as Log Cabin Republicans where good gay conservatives go]. Chao was just elected to the Kroger board of directors. Kroger CEO Rodney McCullen could barely conceal his elation and cast her appointment as a progressive creation of a ‘diverse’ board of directors. Among Kroger employees, her appointment very understandably stoked deep revulsion and widespread anger. Being Asian and woman isn’t enough to overcome being a reactionary. That would be so even if she wasn't married to an equally reactionary Mitch McConnell.

I couldn't care less what you or anyone else looks like or who you love. Not my business! But when these identities supplant CLASS and substitute in place OF class issues, the result is NEVER 'progressive' but is ALWAYS reactionary. That explains why Kroger employees were sickened with the placement of Chao on the board -- NOT because she is a woman, NOT because she is an Asian American, NOT because of any other intersectionalities, but because she is an arch-reactionary.

Second: how, pray tell, can Africa be a ‘red herring?’ You’ve heard of the South African variant. You’ve also heard of the India variant. You’ve heard of the Brazilian variant. We now have the Eta, Iota and Kappa variants. And there is the Lambda [Peruvian] mutation. If anything is to be learned it is that no part of the world is irrelevant. I direct you to note the word ‘ global ’ in ‘global pandemic.’ Global pandemic means that NO part of the world is irrelevant or a ‘red herring.’ I can’t grasp how you, an intelligent man, could suppose otherwise.

What I stated was this: As for Africa. . . that's a red-herring outside of this monumental, insurmountable, dilemma socialism has in our country. Against odds, merits, and misunderstandings. I just don't see it.

Question: Where do you place emphasis:

1. To establish socialism in the U. S.?

2. To establish world-wide socialism?

3. To fix Africa's and the world's pandemic health crisis?

Because this pandemic (and vaccine delivery) damaging as it is, will not  get your organization anywhere close to global socialism! In my opinion, that is. So, why keep 'pushing' it towards my direction?

NOTE: My train of thought @2.1.7 (Six days ago) is 'shot' and I am not willing to reconstitute it. You will simply have to go forward from here. I am sorry you had other pressing comments to engage - but I don't have the time to review all those comment (above) looking for nuance. (Smile.)

Re: 1] Socialism in the US, 2] world-wide socialism, or 3] fix global pandemic [including Africa, Asia, etc.]?

Strike off # 1. Socialism no more than Capitalism can exist in one country. That is a misnomer. Nor can one country stem pandemic. All countries together cannot stem pandemic – IF infection is uncontrolled in any one place. The Maldives, the Federal Republic of Togo, Pingelap Island – if infection exists anywhere, it will soon enough exist everywhere.

But the paramount concern is not so easily identified. Beyond inoculation, masking, testing, contract tracing, isolation, and the closure of schools and all non-essential businesses are required. That’s where we hit an axle-breaker pothole.

Those measures are impossible where Kapital rules. Why?
It is because Capitalism must extract profit or else collapse.

So the ruling class had decided from the very start THAT …

> Adults must return to factories and workplaces to create profit.
> To make parents work-available, children must return to school. 

Kapital’s profit-imperative requires just such conditions.
Yet these conditions ensure maximum pandemic spread.
That’s the rub! No resolution to that contradiction exists.

The defense of children and families require measures which Kapital cannot allow.

Masking, testing, contract tracing, isolation, and closure of all schools/non-essential businesses IS the defense of children, families and communities.
They also strike a direct blow against the entire profit system.

Without those measures, children, families and communities will perish.
With the measures, the profit-based system of global Kapital will perish.

Children, families and communities cannot be defended except in opposition to Kapital’s profit diktats.
Production – let it not be forgotten – is a SOCIAL process. 

The Social Equality Party [SEP] is not tasked to implement global socialism.
Global socialism can be implemented SOLELY by the global working class.

The SEP’s responsibility is to inform and explain events and their meaning.
Only the working class can impose on Kapital the measures needed to defend the life of their children and families.

Production is SOCIAL. It involves people and resources from many paths of life to make profit for the ruling class. Given a choice between that or sparing your children, which seems better? Kapital must resolve those contradictory interests if it wishes to control access to resources and the productive system. I realize that my answers may not be what your questions seek. Sometimes that’s me. But at times it is necessary to ask other questions. 

Edit: Remove duplicate paragraph.

Kapital’s profit-imperative requires just such conditions.
Yet these conditions ensure maximum pandemic spread.
That’s the rub! No resolution to that contradiction exists.

Capitalism does require profit. And beyond saying it you have yet to demonstrate that capitalism can not work during or actually end a pandemic. Moreover, there is a 'flaw in your logic that begs for some deliberation: How do the Social Equality Party plan to 'herd' all these nations (think autocratic-dictatorship-hybrid communism  U.S./North Korea/Pakistan/India/Russia/China/Iran/Afghanistan) into 'the fold'?

'...you have yet to demonstrate that capitalism can not work during or actually end a pandemic.'

I'm somewhat surprised to read this. Effectively, I'm required to believe that beyond vaccination, inoculation, masking, testing, contract tracing, isolation, and the closure of schools and all non-essential businesses are not required to stay pandemic illness. Why else would I be asked to demonstrate that Capitalism cannot end pandemic? I feel as if I've been asked to demonstrate the validity of Louis Pasteur's Germ Theory.

If one doesn't see these measures as necessary to end this pandemic, perhaps they should consider supporting the Republican Party.

If one does see these interventions as essential, how can affirm returning to work to produce profit as always?

'How do the Social Equality Party plan to 'herd' all these nations (think autocratic-dictatorship-hybrid communism  U.S./North Korea/Pakistan/India/Russia/China/Iran/Afghanistan) into 'the fold'?'

How does the SEP plan to 'herd' nations? It doesn't.

As I said, the SEP serves to 'inform and explain.' That includes pointing out that Stalinism has naught to do with socialism. And as China, Cuba, et. al. are patterned after that model, we have no responsibility to defend their actions whatsoever. Nor do we. We are Stalin's worst critic. There is a reason Stalin murdered Trotsky.

The next thing to be explained is that workers of the world have no country but the international working class. In fact proletarians world wide have NOTHING common with their respective leaders and they have EVERYTHING common with their working class proletarians around the world. We raise consciousness to that fact.

It belongs to the world-wide proletarian class to draw the necessary conclusions and to take it from there. Kapital certainly has a global perspective. Why should the working class do any less?

Why do you think it is proper to ask capitalist countries, (afterall according to SEP they are profit-driven 'mongers') to fix the pandemic 'response' of poor countries?

We raise consciousness. . . .

How is consciousness raising going in say,. . . North Korea?  (That may sound facetious, but its not. The country is a a part of the 'community' SEP seeks world-wide.

CB: I'm dismayed!

I call for a uniform, global response including inoculation, masking, testing, contract tracing, isolation, and the closure of schools and all non-essential businesses. That is how pandemic spread is countered. You know that.

Yet I am asked to explain the propriety of asking capitalist countries 'to fix the pandemic "response" of poor countries.' How is that? What is happening here?

I presume that you prefer that pandemic be controlled, curtailed and eventually eliminated. Am I wrong? What is happening here?

You can't possibly think it is possible to eliminate a virus in one country while it rages out of control elsewhere. You know better. You can't possibly NOT know that. You know that a virus knows no boundaries. You know that it follows no laws. You know that it uses no passport. So what is really happening here?

You also know that the response for which I call is not that some countries 'fix' others. That is as foolish as it is impossible. Required is JOINT effort based on a common strategy. That said, yes -- wealthier countries forego patent requirements as Jonas Salk did.

Most of the world's population wants this pandemic curtailed and eventually eliminated. Is it presumptuous to assume that some nations need help? If so, is it presumptuous to assume that they don't want help? Why would we assume that? Where is the sense of common humanity and/or human decency?

What is this really about, CB? What's really happening here? Is it that you are willing to consider ONLY 'Capitalist compatible' countermeasures, and lacking that, you are quite content to see pandemic rip even if it tens, scores or hundreds of millions of lives? Is that acceptable? If it is proper for us to wash our hands of responsibility, why should we ourselves be spared this scourge?

If you refuse to strive and struggle to curtail and eventually eliminate this global threat, you demonstrate the correctness of the socialist assessment that no section of the ruling class will propose a solitary, viable, progressive solution even to the most damning of world crises.

This demonstrates the necessity that the 90%, the world proletarian class, take the decision-making process from ruling-class hands, and assume direct responsibility for their own governance so they can implement the pandemic response needed.

This is far more democratic participation than any ruling class supporter would care to allow. But as socialists say -- the difference between the bourgeoisie [1%] and petty-bourgeoisie [Next 9%] sections of the ruling class is not one of AIMS but of MEANS.

The bourgeoisie section insists on the authoritarian imposition of 'back to school/work/etc.' diktats and squelching resistance with armed force. The petty-bourgeoisie section withholds principled resistance, pleads the impossibility of doing otherwise, rationalizes ineffectiveness and compromises most of what the 1% demands of it [most recently, Trump's 'back to school' policy, Trump's defense of the Lafayette Police sweep, resurrecting Trump's Wuhan lab lie, courting favor with the Insurrectionist Party -- the list continues].

To the extent that this analysis is correct, a genuinely socialist perspective represents a problem for the petty-bourgeoisie. I get the impression that the plan is to reject ny motion toward a solution which it is known will be unacceptable to the 1%. You have the native intelligence to grasp the need for a uniform, global response to this global pandemic. Yet I see raised objection after objection after objection after objection. If I'm misreading what's happening, say so. Otherwise, I have little choice but to conclude that I'm being played -- the idea being that this the best bet to reduce the effectiveness of a socialist voice on the board.

I don't know enough about North Korea to answer that. We have people in South Korea. North and South Koreans do communicate. Family relations don't end at the border. The World Socialist Web Site publishes in 25+ languages, including Korean. Of course China is also in communication with North Korea for its own reasons.

North Korean workers are not exempt from labor unrest or from attacks by their own ruling class. At times, hunger is deep. China also faces labor unrest. Ditto for Iran, which has seen substantial worker strikes over gas prices and staple foods. A wave of US worker strikes rises such as has not been seen in half a century. The same is happening in so-called democratic countries no less than authoritarian regimes. People are not stupid. US citizens don't need Putin to tell them that workers are not doing so well these days. North Koreans are not stupid either.

People will try to work through established institutions and processes of state. When that effects no remedy, they spurn the same and establish new venues for social change. And when that affects class interests, the US response is no different. No nation on earth has repressed worker struggles more violently than the US. And it will attempt to do so again -- especially as workers begin rejecting the UAW/USW/UMW/etc. and calling for mass decertification of Democratic Party run unions.

For decades, worker struggles have been suppressed. But they cannot be eliminated. Workers are breaking the union stranglehold which has hindered and shut down powerful strikes at every stage of struggle. The human spirit is not so easily repressed. That is true in the US; it is true in North Korea. And remember -- the US worker and North Korean worker have EVERYTHING in common with each other as WORKERS; neither has anything in common with their respective ruling classes.

You begged the question at @2.1.14. That said, I am going to let that indulgent rant of yours (above) stand without additional comment.

So your 'efforts' at consciousness raising  of the "world-wide proletarian class is. . . aspirational? Since 1928 in this country, nearly a hundred years, an this is the 'big opportunity' - "piggy-back" on a world-wide pandemic?

Interestingly, I view myself being drawn into a frame by you (as a spoiler -intentionally or unintentionally), when what I am really after is for you, the representative of your worldview (Socialist Equality Party) to come here and communicate in simply terms what it is you want, in simple terms - without the "teeth pulling."

I can see your point of view - even as TiG (I hope he does not mind the invoking) has often pointed out in numerous articles on proper socialism. Though, I see world-wide socialism as remote to achieve and world-wide agreement as an odyssey for some brave souls.  Therefore, I am not against SEP. I want to understand why and how now!

'You begged the question...'

Actually, I reversed the question.

'Is it presumptuous to assume that some nations need help? If so, is it presumptuous to assume that they don't want help?'

A ship floundering at sea requires assistance whatever the nationality of the seamen. Or does propriety require discussion of whether men want rescue as they drown?

Moreover, you choose to ignore the global nature of pandemic and the subsequent necessity of a universal response which alone can eradicate this virus.

The ruling class has told us that we must live with the virus. Do you agree in principle, or are you prepared to join in the fight to rid the world of this virus?

'... communicate ... what it is you want ... '

A society which uses resources to serve the need of all, not the greed of a few.

'I see world-wide socialism as remote to achieve and world-wide agreement as an odyssey for some brave souls.'

Stalin would not disagree. Marx does, i.e., 'workers of the world -- UNITE!

'I want to understand why and how now!'

Why? So resources may serve the need ALL.

How? The international working class -- which is the 90% -- make the decisions regarding the allocation of resources and production.

@2.1.14 Why do you think it is proper to ask capitalist countries (afterall according to SEP they are profit-driven 'mongers') to fix the pandemic 'response' of poor countries?

Really Trotsky's S, you are not dealing with the issue. Yes! Help nations that need aid. Yes! Yes! Yes! But, let's not kid ourselves we have a "Houston-sized" problem here in the U.S. A. with some of our own citizens not trusting "the good" we do with the vaccines. Why do you ignore what is happening here to make such "grand ideology statements" accusing me of not being in-touch? This problem is difficult and is only magnified across the 'globe.'

I am working to keep this discussion focused on what you offer: Socialism.

You introduced "Capitalism," global/pandemic," a foreign country (Africa), world-wide socialism, and finally SEP as aspiration to the working class of the world. You have not delineated any model of how to get any of SEP's "agenda" accomplished on a global scale.

It seems you now want to ASK/argue incessantly for capitalism to do what it does on its own (without worldwide socialist impetus): help poor countries out of predicament and dire straits - in this case - vaccinations for Covid-19.

Aside: I do not know who (if any) took the lead in vaccinating the Taliban of Afghanistan, or if it is true that Israel aided the vaccination efforts of the Palestinian people - but in either case capitalism may have reared its 'ugly' head to participate!

And lastly, don't subtly state that I am against helping the world get rid of this virus, simply because I point out that we have yet to persuade our own house to accept vaccine order. That would be exploitation on your part of my focus on SEP and socialism, and I don't like that and I won't allow it to go uncontested. . . from here forward.

Okay, I can see that as a goal.

Let's try this a different way: Socialist Equality Party realizes (I feel sure) the entrenched capitalist systems of this world will fight it to survive to its last dying breath?

Bluntly, how do SEP plan to kill (mature) capitalism? What is the planned, "shot to its head"?

' Yes! Help nations that need aid.'

Thank you. Know only that this is not 'aid' to other nations [although they would be aided by it] but it is mandatory policy to shut down this virus permanently.

'...we have a "Houston-sized" problem here in the U.S. A. with some of our own citizens not trusting "the good" we do with the vaccines. Why do you ignore what is happening here to make such "grand ideology statements" accusing me of not being in-touch? This problem is difficult and is only magnified across the 'globe.'

Yes. We do have a very substantial pandemic problem. The measures I named will reduce infection rates. But without applying the same metrics globally, 'Huston' soon enough will be reinfected with even more aggressive mutations. If the necessary measures are not applied everywhere, whatever 'relief' actions create domestically will be but temporary reprieve.

'I am working to keep this discussion focused on what you offer: Socialism.'

I posted an article discussing the failure of the petty-bourgeoisie serve an effective pandemic response. A deadly pandemic should not and will not wait for a shift toward socialism. The pandemic must be addressed now. I merely point out that the profit-imperative is fundamentally incompatible with this. With people required to work in close proximity, with company refusals to identify areas in which infections have occurred, if companies refuse to shut down to let professional cleaners sanitize affected areas, if they refuse to use qualified public health professionals to identify infections, do contact tracing and isolation -- infections will continue. An example of this is the meat-packing industry.

Must one declare for socialism to see that this interferes with the extraction of profit? Of course not. Those who don't at this time embrace socialism must be allowed to demand these policies essential to ending pandemic. At the same time, I'm pointing out that Kapital equally demands that these lifesaving measures not be allowed to interfere with the extraction of profit. Be aware of what you're facing. And be ready to face it with us.

'...global/pandemic," a foreign country (Africa)...'

Of course I introduced this. Unless the pandemic is defeated everywhere, it will resurface everywhere. That's how pandemic works.

'You have not delineated any model of how to get any of SEP's "agenda" accomplished on a global scale.'

... because the SEP's role is to inform and politically educate the working class. It belongs to the working class ALONE to demand/implement sound, science-based policies necessary to stop the spread of pandemic illness. The SEP has a platform and a perspective. But the party role is to win the working class for that perspective.

When a crisis erupts -- be it a breakout of COVID-19 infections, the super-exploitation of workers, a UAW betrayal which seeks to impose a sellout contract -- the SEP puts party members on location to discussion the situation with affected workers. Our people research the crisis, gather information, identify the issues, explain their import, and develops specific demands to counter whatever the company and/or union is doing which undermines the working class position. This comes with a call for the workers THEMSELVES to organize a Rank-and-File Committee in order to lead the workers' struggle AGAINST that breakout or that betrayal or the super-exploitation of workers in a given situation. The party informs and educates. The party encourages organization. The party publishes necessary materials.

But if socialism it to mean anything -- it must be the working class ITSELF which takes ownership of what the party provides. Where this happens, there is principled opposition to attacks on workers -- in the auto plant, in the school district, in the mine, in the field, etc. Where no Rank-and-File Committee emerges to lead the struggle of those involved, workers flounder and are quickly isolated and defeated. The SEP is a vanguard party in that it stands ready to prepare workers to struggle in the manner just described. But the leadership MUST come from the workers themselves. Without this, the party is nothing.

Know only that this is not 'aid' to other nations [although they would be aided by it] but it is mandatory policy to shut down this virus permanently.

Yes, it is aid, period.

we have a "Houston-sized" problem here in the U.S. A..

"But" won't get you clear of what is happening inside this country with anti-vaxxers, aggressively argumentative politicians and news shows, and poorly informed superstitious citizens. We are a clear and present problem for the world.

I posted an article discussing the failure of the petty-bourgeoisie serve an effective pandemic response. A deadly pandemic should not and will not wait for a shift toward socialism. The pandemic must be addressed now. I merely point out that the profit-imperative is fundamentally incompatible with this. With people required to work in close proximity, with company refusals to identify areas in which infections have occurred, if companies refuse to shut down to let professional cleaners sanitize affected areas, if they refuse to use qualified public health professionals to identify infections, do contact tracing and isolation -- infections will continue. An example of this is the meat-packing industry

Isn't this line of discussion a bit 'dated'?  We have vaccines now. Companies are following this president's guide of requiring employees to get vaccines before being allowed to come in to work. Can the meat packing industry be far behind other industries?

A bit of sarcasm: Perhaps companies have realized just how much "kapital" an at home, sick and hospitalized, or death benefitted employee cost and think they can "profit" from keeping them all as well as can be.

because the SEP's role is to inform and politically educate the working class. It belongs to the working class ALONE to demand/implement sound, science-based policies necessary to stop the spread of pandemic illness. The SEP has a platform and a perspective. But the party role is to win the working class for that perspective.

Now that is fair. An advocacy group has legitimacy, per se.  Welcome to the day-to-day grind of democratic thinking. Looking forward to see how this worldview does on the world stage!

But the leadership MUST come from the workers themselves.

There are border "blockages" on that singular and 'musclar' leadership model developing. Sorry.

'[The] Socialist Equality Party realizes ... the entrenched capitalist systems of this world will fight it "to survive to its last dying breath?'"

Never were truer words spoken. Not one concession -- abolition of child labor, end mandatory overtime and 40 hour work week, pensions, shop-floor safety -- nothing progressive was ever won anywhere that was not wrest from the clutching grasp of an indolent ruling class screaming 'bloody murder.'

'...how do SEP plan to kill (mature) capitalism?'

It doesn't. The working class ALONE can do that by transferring ownership of resources and the means of production to itself, and putting them under worker control.

'Yes, it is aid, period.'

OK you're using this in the more technical sense that we normally discuss foreign aid.

I'm using the term in the sense of it being beneficial to remove patent rights to vaccine production so that poorer nations worldwide could produce vaccine themselves. Pharmaceutics would not profit from this, but any nation with the capacity to produce vaccine could produce it. That would certainly 'benefit' the world's nations but not in a way bestowing 'aid' monetarily as is normally the case. That said, we would hardly be the only 'beneficiary' in that unless pandemic spread is rolled back in nations around the world, it will be pounding on our door and reinfecting the US over and over and over and over and over again.

That is an outcome with which no nation, including our own, should consent to accept. We have the means to stop this thing. Lift the patent restrictions so that other nations can fight pandemic there as we fight pandemic here. Do this, and we won't have to fight the same battle here in 2023/2024 or for however long the US stands.

Interesting. How do you resolve issues of Rule of Law and its consequences?

Interesting. Patent control keeps control over counterfeits to some extend right? That is, there are good reasons to have patent (legal)  constraints on Emergency Use Authorization products like SARS-2 vaccines. These vaccines are new to us as scientists and intellectuals. What becomes of a world-wide "mimicking" process that makes missteps which make a horrid scenario of out of control SARS-2 mutation (or a brand new contagion) based on inappropriate usages or dosage appllications?

(Just trying to feel you out on some potential concerns.)

' Isn't this line of discussion a bit 'dated'? '

Not so long as pandemic still spreads in ways that can be mitigated by these strategies.

' Companies are following this president's guide... '

Are they? Perhaps I should start posting some statement from autoworkers/Healthcare workers/Transport-logistics workers/Steelworkers/Mining workers/etc. as Rank-and-File Committees continue to be formed. And what of schools? What of un-vaccinated children? Administrators and physicians at pediatric hospitals are speaking. I think we should listen.

Whatever else the President's Guide may indicate, this is what I'm seeing.

My guess is that as schools reopen, this isn't going anywhere good. That's why the WSWS is publishes on this daily.

'A bit of sarcasm: Perhaps companies have realized just how much "kapital" an at home, sick and hospitalized, or death benefitted employee cost and think they can "profit" from keeping them all as well as can be.'

I'm afraid the sarcasm is lost behind your legitimate and very necessary point. Companies are astutely aware of the cost of at home/sick/hospitalized/dead employees. That is why Amazon and other workers find themselves summarily fired if they cannot perform or are injured on the job -- even if company refusal to implement proper safety is clearly at issue. Union reps listen and take no action. The corporation recognizes no obligation to the employee. As Marx said, Kapital requires that an army of exploitable workers be available to appear on the market as needed. The moral? You are expendable! Nor is Amazon by any means the only racketeer involved.

That this happens demonstrates that all the gains 'wrest' from Kapital in past worker struggles are being taken back. The 8 hour day is under attack. Pensions are under attack. Wages are under attack. Safety is under attack. Health care is under attack. Every impediment to profit must be removed! This is where [on all such issues] and why workers must organize to revive the great, worker struggles of the past.

'There are border "blockages" on that singular and 'musclar' leadership model developing...'

No idea what you intend by this. Trotsky identified leadership as the critical issue on which worker struggles stand or fall. If you mean to say that this represents an obstacle, we are agreed. The training of leadership as one of socialism's most necessary goals.

Under your category heading: "Amazon and other workers" is FACEBOOK Inc. summarily firing people who can not perform or are injured on the job during the pandemic? Have you checked with FACEBOOK Inc.? Or, is the "other workers" just a gloss-over encompassing expression meant to internalized by readers without any factual support?

I'm sorry. As I agree in theory with what I have been 'given' about socialism, I remain with questions on if this is simply 'head knowledge' without any impetus to succeed worldwide in practice. 

If you care to, we shall continue to discuss this subject matter for what it is worth.

Trotsky identified leadership as the critical issue on which worker struggles stand or fall. If you mean to say that this represents an obstacle, we are agreed.

We are agreed. World-wide leadership means cooperation world-wide. Socialism is far from achieving this first 'steps.'

'How do you resolve issues of "Rule of Law and its consequences?"'

I think you're after an explanation of 'no nation ... should consent to accept.' I'll continue on that assumption, and if I'm mistaken, correct me. Since you seem to prefer succinct answers [and I tend toward longer perspectives}, I’ll give you the short reply first.

I support law, and law must proscribe consequences or it becomes mere suggestion. And further, law must also be just.

To put some flesh on this ...

Thursday evening, I attended a committee meeting. We prepared a statement by and for educators and their families. It included a call for full investigation of and criminal and civil prosecution of organizations, institutions and public officials that promote or implement policies contributing to pandemic spread as acts of social murder.

As I see it [and committee would not disagree] failure/refusal to investigate and prosecute public officials and others responsible for pandemic spread is an abandonment of law and an abdication of justice. It is reprehensible that any society would deliberately endanger the public, and school children particularly. That is heinous criminality.

With schools about to reopen, we are walking into a disaster. Public officials know that many children will contract COVID-19. Many will experience long COVID and sustain organ injury. Those implementing this policy should understand that they will not be allowed to pronounce cheap, self-absolution. They will be held answerable for implementing homicidal policies.

To that end, I support justice and demand that law be vindicated.

'Under your category heading: "Amazon and other workers..."'

I'm not up on Facebook policy. SEP members and supporters are in touch with workers across the US and many places around the world. An Amazon Rank-and-File Committee exists, and our people have communication with it. Educator Rank-and-File Committees exist in a number of states and in countries around the world.

On May 1 of this year, the International Committee of the Fourth International announced the founding of the International Workers Alliance of Rank and File Committees [IWA-RFC]. The intent is to create a global network of worker-run Rank-and-File Committees. The World Socialist Web Site is at the disposal of these committees. It publishes worker statements, demands and appeals to a world-wide readership, giving workers a voice, a venue, and breaking their isolation. This is only the slightest beginning. From May 1, only 14 weeks have passed. However IWA-RFC support is growing. And it will continue to grow.

We have covered worker struggles for years. We have supporters in logistics [Amazon], medicine and health care, law, autoworkers, steelworkers, miners, educators and more. In short, other workers. I wouldn't offer an exhaustive list even if I did have that information, which I don't. But the point is that workers everywhere tell us that they face the same struggles. When we hear that a big contract has come up for renewal, or that a factory is closing, or that some issue [including but certainly not limited to COVID-19] has risen, we put people on the ground with a perspective on that struggle. Usually, they are very willing to explain what happens on the shop floor. As they inform us that way, we use their issues to teach the socialist perspective. We tell them how they can contact us. We encourage them to form a Rank-and-File Committee, explain how to do this, and offer expertise if it is desired. But the workers must come forward. Otherwise, no committee will be formed.

We will put a couple of members and supporters on a committee if such is desired. We can have someone chair if it is desired. We can arrange for a physician or other professional to bring a report or discuss an issue on some or another subject. But the backbone of a Rank-and-File Committee must always be the rank and file -- the workers in the plant, city, state or region in question. The Amazon Rank-and File Committee IS the Committee of the Amazon workers. Ditto for the Volvo R&FC, the MACK R&FC, the Chicago Educators' R&FC, the NYC Educators' R&FC, the Texas Educators' R&FC [yes, Texas] and so forth.

The SEP can we inform, educate and otherwise facilitate; but ONLY rank-and-file workers in every industry in every city and country can transition to socialism.

And they will.

@2.1.30  The working class ALONE can do that by transferring ownership of resources and the means of production to itself, and putting them under worker control. @2.1.32  How do you resolve issues of Rule of Law and its consequences?

In my mind, these two themes go together. The statement and the question. How do you simply 'blow away' centuries of capitalistic 'rules' and case laws? A revolution (in each essential country)? Is it probable that the whole world can shift into revolt mode at the same time?

In May 1 of this year, the International Committee of the Fourth International announced the founding of the International Workers Alliance of Rank and File Committees [IWA-RFC]. The intent is to create a global network of worker-run Rank-and-File Committees.

[W]e put people on the ground with a perspective on that struggle. Usually, they are very willing to explain what happens on the shop floor. As they inform us that way, we use their issues to teach the socialist perspective. We tell them how they can contact us. We encourage them to form a Rank-and-File Committee, explain how to do this, and offer expertise if it is desired.

Now a model is coming into focus: A strategy, goals, and action planning. A trifecta! I can see it.

NOTE: FACEBOOK has many benefit packages for its rank and file employees. Even kept many on during our continuing pandemic of 2020 - 2021. Similarly with Tesla. Even is holding on to its "people" when they fall to illnesses (other than SARS-2) and life's pitfalls. I know some people who speak 'highly' of their Facebook and Tesla employers. Walmart is doing 'swell' for its people in wage increases and benefits (moreso since the start of this pandemic onslaught!) Of course, there is coming talk of 'negotiations' over benefits and compensation due to the indefinite remote worker model. It is to be an inevitable business conversation due to unrelenting health crises.

'Patent control keeps control over counterfeits to some extend right?'

I suspect that money overwhelmingly drives the patenting process. But particularly under these pandemic conditions, it is imperative that genuinely safe and effective vaccines be available to all. Of course if this WAS freely available, there would be no money in a counterfeit.

My answer would be that this should be no problem. For example, Kuala Lumpur [Malaysia] or may not have the capability to develop a vaccine [I can't say either way]. But if the labs are not a problem, a lack of knowledge should not hinder its production. Make the knowledge available, and the Malayan government can oversee the project. Lilongwe [Republic of Malawi] may have neither the capacity nor the expertise to produce vaccine. Again, I just don't know. But if not, neither should be allowed to stop the manufacture and distribution of vaccine. A pandemic virus anywhere is [soon enough] a pandemic virus everywhere. Malawi needs that vaccine as much as we need Malawi and Malaysia to have it. I don't care from where it comes. Kenya may well have both the capacity and expertise to produce vaccine. The Republic of South Africa certainly has it. Lilongwe can hire expertise, and someone can surely show them how to set up a production process. But unless the patent issue is redressed, this process is going nowhere.

Related, you were in an important sense correct to say that 'Africa must get its collective act together.' The process I have described [or something like it] must happen if ever we are to be rid of COVID. And I'm sure that 'snags' in my very inexpert plan exist. That also shows why the working class everywhere must be freed up to find solutions to issues. The people who know these problems best are those who live with them daily. But these are anything but insurmountable. But some simply are not able to produce vaccine -- let alone to make one from scratch. This must not be allowed to hinder vaccine production and distribution. It doesn't require moving heaven and earth to put competence and supervision in place. And we should be ready to give the knowledge and means to produce it by addressing this patent issue.

But there's more. We're not alone in this. Germany should also give the nations this expertise. So should India [a world leader in pharmaceuticals] and Russia, and so on. Mind, we're not responsible for what France or China or South Africa does. We are responsible for what we do -- or don't do. And by our action or our inaction, we demonstrate to the world what and who we are, and whether we value people over profit, or the reverse. Ditto for other nations. And yes, we must do all this without losing site of the need to convince our countrymen to take the shot. I learned yesterday that my fishing buddy hasn't. He's scared, and it stabs my heart. I must talk with him. You talk to people in your own life who need this. Don't let them down. And don't let down the people in Malaysia or Malawi or the [tiny] Maldives.

Wherever this thing isn't stopped will become the global epicenter of the next wave ... and the next ... and the next ... and the next.

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'In my mind, these two themes go together.'

... because property relations are sanctioned by law. You’re not wrong to see them that way.

'How do you simply 'blow away' centuries of capitalistic 'rules' and case laws?'

These ‘rules and case laws’ matter far more to the ruling class than the working class. And while I wouldn't call it 'simple,' it is certainly possible. It has happened already. Example: 

On the eve of the 1789 Revolution, the Royal Court had no relevance to life or the struggles of the masses. The masses bore its weight but expected from it no relief, direction, leadership, involvement or justice. For all it mattered, the Royal Court of France may as well have existed on another planet. Resentment turned to disgust and [at times] unrest. The king lost all authority in the eyes of the masses. But legitimacy/authority isn’t the whole picture.

The masses knew that their political and moral convictions were right, true and necessary. It was the strength of said convictions that defeated the monarchy. And for its differences, the October Revolution evidenced similar dynamics.

The lessons and insights of these experiences [and all worker struggles] are incorporated continually into socialist work.

Capitalist rules/laws serve to enshrine/perpetuate class privilege. It is class privilege which must go. Only the creation of a new order of rules and laws will allow the relief, direction, involvement, leadership and justice the working masses need to survive and thrive.
 
On 'revolution.'

Trotsky defined it as the moment the masses begin to participate in politics to take their lives and destinies into their own hands. So far as it informs and educates the masses, and develops mass leadership, the SEP is a revolutionary party.

On world revolution:

Once started, revolution must continue until it is accomplished globally – thus Trotsky’s theory of Permanent Revolution.

This stands in answer to global Capitalism. The working class and less privileged ruling-class layers doubt that this can be. The most privileged ruling-class layers are acutely aware that it can, and that is their worst nightmare.

WHY world-wide revolution is possible is simple; Kapital creates the conditions for it. Everywhere, workers must sell their labor power for a wage. Everywhere, the same corporate strategies are implemented, the same crises emerge, and the same, repressive policies enforce the same, social relations. Common experience unites workers everywhere. That recognition must and will unite workers of the world against all attempts to divide and thereby conquer them.

Worker struggles have tremendous potential to sweep the earth. When a genuine, worker struggle emerges anywhere, the question is, ‘will it be broadened – or isolated and defeated.’ Corporate and trade union strategies aim to isolate and defeat it. The SEP intercepts and counters those efforts by striving to extend and broaden worker struggles. Our people find that hearing of others’ struggles, workers respond immediately by recognizing solidarity and expressing support.

A recent example of the potential for global, worker action:

When Dublin VA Volvo workers went on strike this summer, we did not stop with that story. We sent people to Mack truck. Although they belong to the same union, the UAW local had told Mack workers nothing of the strike. So we did. We told them that Volvo Workers organized a Rank-and-File Committee,’ and gave them VWRFC statements on the contract sellout. Mack workers said that ‘if they do that in Dublin, they’ll do it here when our contract expires!’

We said that the Dublin UAW local made no objection to Volvo’s using scabs to defeat the strike. They were unsurprised. Their local does them no good either. When we told them of the scab cabs bound for completion at their plant – Mack workers were FURIOUS. A Mack Workers’ Rank-and-File Committee formed. One of its first statements published on the WSWS stated – we stand by the VWRFC! Mack workers defiantly REFUSED to complete the scab cabs from Dublin Volvo!

Similar support statements came from across the US including Ford workers and other automakers. Automakers in Chicago and Detroit were outraged by the UAW local 2069 role in shutting down the Dublin strike. Statements also came from other sector industries. And as all face the same issues and conditions, support statements came from the world.

SEP people went to the Volvo plant in Ghent, Belgium. Again, they’d heard nothing of the Dublin strike. Ghent Volvo workers organized wildcat strikes supporting Dublin Volvo workers. They made statements which the WSWS published. Support statements also came from Australia, Germany, the UK, India, Canada and other nations.

Parliaments, congresses, constitutions, elections, etc somewhat conceal the reality of common worker experiences. But as workers unite and step directly into the stream of political events, so-called Western style liberal democracies – no less than totalitarian regimes – stand fully ready to deploy whatever means are needed to crush worker initiatives.

This is done under the banner of ‘preserving our way of life’ and ‘defending democracy from the hordes of barbarism. The real intent is to preserve ‘our’ [ruling-class] order of ‘rules and case laws’ which enshrine/perpetuate class privilege.

Kapital is generating global crisis; pandemic is but one manifestation of this. Others include but are not limited to militarism, the drive to war and world war, and the assault on civil rights – without which workers will refuse that war.  In light of such crises, the massive ranks of the working class are awakening to the reality that their political and moral convictions are right, true and necessary. On the strength of said convictions, they must prevail.

It has taken me two days to return to this comment which I saw and 'forgot' due to busi-ness. You wrote:

So far as it informs and educates the masses, and develops mass leadership, the SEP is a revolutionary party.

What does the Socialist Equality Party (USA) want as a 'reward' for its offerings and services?

NOTE: With your comment above I notice a shift away from the heavy emphasis on the pandemic. (It was what threw me off two days ago.)  Was it to do with the fact that the USA is acting to sent out 500 million plus doses of vaccine (using a capitalist model)?

The tone of this writing seems to want to chase a way capitalism in systematic stages or swaths. Whether than with urgency. Am I wrong?

Why does capitalism have to be a 'horned monster' for socialism to exist?

What about hybrid capitalism and socialism models? (Could it be the best of both worlds?) Do you consider such an 'animal' as having meaning and/or value - or do you dismiss it as altogether?

'It has taken me two days to return to this comment which I saw and 'forgot' due to busi-ness.'

Good! Real-time [life] comes first. Always!

'So far as it informs and educates the masses, and develops mass leadership, the SEP is a revolutionary party.' What does the Socialist Equality Party (USA) want as a 'reward' for its offerings and services?'

I’ve never once heard that addressed or even asked. 

My answer [and socialists I know would agree] – is a world at peace; hunger/homelessness/ignorance/poverty/treatable disease and their attending miseries are a thing of the past. Education, employment, human and cultural development are there for all who desire it, and self-governance, democracy, and human rights are hallmarks of public life. Make this world be, and that will be more than enough. We ask nothing for ourselves that we do not also demand for all others!

'NOTE: With your comment above I notice a shift away from the heavy emphasis on the pandemic. (It was what threw me off two days ago.)  Was it to do with the fact that the USA is acting to sent out 500 million plus doses of vaccine (using a capitalist model)?'

Forwarding ½ billion vaccines is well and good. As this happened on the Capitalist model, we expect the manufacturers will be well compensated. For them, this is a boon. It also leaves billions unvaccinated. Lift the patent restrictions and let the world produce this life-saving vaccine to contain and reduce pandemic and repress potential for new variants! That demand still stands. That is the way forward.

'The tone of this writing seems to want to chase a way capitalism in systematic stages or swaths. Whether than with urgency. Am I wrong?'

Capitalism itself unfolds in stages; it constantly reviews profit levels, their impediments, and seeks out new potentials for exploitation of material and human resources as it deepens its ongoing attacks on the working class. Of course it also needs to contain, derail or misdirect worker opposition which these actions generate inevitably.

Socialists analyze the day-to-day twists and turns of the capitalist economy, to get a grip on the complex array of data and statistics on everything from the latest figures on GDP to the gyrations in financial markets. We also look to long-term processes, break them down into periods, and identify strategies and lessons deriving from them. All this is critical to socialist education. We do that from the standpoint that these things in the final analysis are expressions of social forces and class relations.

We use Marx’ method to do this. We follow the development of contradiction between productive forces [which are social], and the relations of production [based on the private ownership of means of production and the market. This is the key to the answer re: your next question:

'Why does capitalism have to be a 'horned monster' for socialism to exist?'

‘Monster’ suggests personality; that’s not at issue. The point is that the separation of the social forces of production [those who provide labor] from the means of production [private ownership of factories, resources, etc.] -- that separation establishes the basis of a system of malevolent, adversarial social relations.

Owners can now decide who will work [have bread, shelter, etc.] and who will starve. Owners decide the terms of employment – hours, wages, production levels, benefits, shop conditions, safety, job security – everything involved. The worker has one thing – labor power, exchanged for a wage. Now, a worker can sometimes refuse offered terms. It is said that this is why substandard offers can’t happen. Under Kapital, owners accrue no profit without laborers!

But being wealthy, owners can wait for workers to buckle to their demands. The workers must have bread, so owners can rely on social conditions to coerce workers to kneel before them. Second, owners must compete with each other for an ever greater share of the market. To remain profitable, workers must accept ever increasing downward pressure [longer hours, wage cuts, fewer benefits, etc.]. ‘We can’t compete’ is the cry. Kapital devolves into a downward race. The owner wins whose workers are coerced to accept the most meager terms, thereby maximizing said owner’s profits. Third, particularly in times of social crisis, regimes will order workers back into workplaces to produce profits for owners and investors. We have seen this as recently as the pandemic. Of course police stand ready to enforce all this.

At the end of the day, Kapital will have profit even if the working class must be assaulted by police and Guard backed by the military. Civil liberties will be suspended under the banner of 'preserving our democracy' [oddly exposed by these very tactics] which requires the rule of law and public order [you can't protest/strike] and 'we 'will not allow ...' [ruling class demands], and 'freedom and our way of life inherited from our fathers' [the exorbitance to which the ruling class is accustomed].

These dynamics result directly from the separation of the ownership from the operation of the means of production. Kapital makes these demands necessary for an economy based on profits and competition to survive. These ‘dynamics’ are unavoidable; they operate with the effective force of economic laws under Kapital.

That comes to your last point – 

'What about hybrid capitalism and socialism models? (Could it be the best of both worlds?) Do you consider such an 'animal' as having meaning and/or value - or do you dismiss it as altogether?'

Like the previous question, this one is extraordinarily important. And this is somewhat like what we have now, although the tendency is toward Kapital, not socialism. Those who protest otherwise do so because it is in the economic interests of the ownership social class [the 1%] to promote that illusion.

First, SOME limited concessions to the working class can be made WHEN the economy is growing. When profits are good and the market is comparatively stable, some concessions in wages/benefits/safety/etc. can be made. But in times of economic contraction – when the market menaces investors and profits [inevitably] drop, even those concessions must be taken back. Attacks on the working class deepen and become vicious – mass layoffs, shifts terminated, plant closures, wages slashed, pensions eliminated, etc. Again – this has nothing to do with malevolent personality; it follows economic law as it emerges when ownership and operation of productive means are sundered.

Even in times of economic expansion, attacks on the working class occur. They take the form of ongoing campaigns to overturn regulations, downgrade safety and similar policy raised against ‘creeping socialism.’

This much is correct – socialist were the impetus for all of the gains of the working class – the elimination of child labor, the 8 hour day/40 hour work week, etc. In so far as this has impeded profit interests, socialism is regarded as a sworn enemy by Capitalist overlords.

The ownership class demands [and MUST! demand under Kapital] the complete subjection of the working class to its whims. Marx saw that the value of commodities is determined by the value of the resources determined for its production. Under Kapital, the worker is a commodity. Her/his worth is determined the same way. What is necessary to preserve the worker's life as [s]he rears a family of future workers determines the value of the worker. Wages are calculated accordingly, and the rest of the surplus value created by the worker is never seen; it is kept by the Capitalist as 'profit.'

My answer [and socialists I know would agree] – is a world at peace; hunger/homelessness/ignorance/poverty/treatable disease and their attending miseries are a thing of the past. Education, employment, human and cultural development are there for all who desire it, and self-governance, democracy, and human rights are hallmarks of public life. Make this world be, and that will be more than enough. We ask nothing for ourselves that we do not also demand for all others!

Sounds "utopian." Is chronic homelessness a social-economic problem or mental illness? (How many people who truly desire it -  can't get off the streets in a timely manner?)

"Pure" socialism" may assist mightily in near-ending hunger, poverty, and treatable diseases. Socialism may assist in 'world' peace for a time due to being "on one accord." At this point I must remind you of the balance in this world:  

Our world is "spectrum-centric," That is, the very instance full bellies, total housing, intellectual sufficiency, wealth, and equitable healing appear on the spectrum - hunger, homelessness, ignorance, poverty, treatable diseases and their attending miseries will remanifest in varying dynamic degrees!  Do you agree?

Forwarding ½ billion vaccines is well and good. As this happened on the Capitalist model, we expect the manufacturers will be well compensated. For them, this is a boon. It also leaves billions unvaccinated. Lift the patent restrictions and let the world produce this life-saving vaccine to contain and reduce pandemic and repress potential for new variants! That demand still stands. That is the way forward.

Let the process play out. Why try to speak ahead of it? Certainly, we know the U.S. president does not hold control over vaccine patents. Is this criticism justified?

'Sounds "utopian."'

The required material and human resources exist to do this. At fault is a system of political economy which cannot allow this to happen.

Some utopians have claimed to be socialist, but Marx, Engels and others had [and we have] no delusions about a perfect world to emerge when a worker state is implemented. But rather than relying on Market somehow to resolve social issues, socialism demands that families, communities and professionals and other leaders skilled in matters needing resolution be lead the planning process. Elected officials would be tasked to implement the plan.

'Is chronic homelessness a social-economic problem or mental illness?'

Again, resources exist to put everyone in a home. Also again, our system of political economy will never allow this.Homes may be vacant in communities where there are homeless people. But KAPITAL won't allow it.

We understand that mental illness, which manifests in varying degrees of severity, can prevent people from functioning at a level necessary to meet the requirements of home ownership under Kapital. This touches on 'treatable' illnesses. This is not to say that everyone will be able to function at the necessary level under Kapital -- even with greatly expanded mental health services. But no one -- and certainly no family -- should have to live on the streets.

'"Pure" socialism" may assist mightily in near-ending hunger, poverty, and treatable diseases. Socialism may assist in 'world' peace for a time due to being "on one accord." At this point I must remind you of the balance in this world:'

Well again -- socialism is not utopianism. Matters requiring resolution will always exist. Needed is a system in which all can work to discover and implement solutions, rather than a system which slams the door shut at every turn.

'Our world is "spectrum-centric," That is, the very instance full bellies, total housing, intellectual sufficiency, wealth, and equitable healing appear on the spectrum - hunger, homelessness, ignorance, poverty, treatable diseases and their attending miseries will remanifest in varying dynamic degrees!  Do you agree?'

That is called Capitalism. As Marx said, the accumulation of great wealth on one end of the spectrum represents an accumulation of great misery on the other.

If I recall correctly, you're a churchman. Bear in mind that a strain of Judaeo-Christian practice has always affirmed this. The Sh'abbot intended to banish extremes both of wealth and poverty. While there's no evidence that it was ever practiced, the Jubilee -- a 'Sh'abbot of Sh'abbots' -- required that lands/property return to the original owning family -- regardless of how it came to be lost. Isaiah proclaimed a minimal social vision in which every man -- however modest his means -- had his own plot, fig-tree, a roof over his head, etc. The one who died at 100 would be regarded as a mere infant. This is a minimal social vision. Socialism demands no less.

In its theological import, the Sh'abbot is tied both to creation and the Exodus. In Exodus 20:11, the Sh'abbot rational is based on creation, but the Deuteronomy 5:15 Sh'abbot rational is based on the Exodus. Entirely consistent with this is the work of the later prophets, who critiqued the ever-present tendency to recreate the the conditions of Egypt in eretz Ys'rael.

Of course canonical 'proof-texts' both can be and often are cited to garnish religious support for corrupt policies. But this is different. You see here a perspective that is rooted in institutions preserved for millennia. Moreover, the apocalypse also draws on many motifs related to the manifestation of the empire of Yahweh as opposed to the empire of man. So long as we're discussing a spectrum, I suppose we could put 'Egypt' [and all that represents] on one end -- and on the other, put the Sh'abbot/Exodus [the Older Testament equivalent to Jesus' cross]/the Isaiah vision/etc.

How much 'Egypt' did Joseph's children need? None! As it is told, they left.

It isn't my intention to be bogged down in theological wrangling. If I'm correct, you're the churchman. But perhaps this will encourage reflection on these matters from another perspective.

What I don't get is why good churchmen argue with their own canonical resources on these things.

'Let the process play out. Why try to speak ahead of it?'

For one thing, some 6.5 billion still need the vaccine.

'...the U.S. president does not hold control over vaccine patents...'

So transfer control to the working class. They stand only to gain from eliminating pandemic. Vaccine manufactures gain only as pandemic illness spreads.

Why should they be allowed to hold a gun to the world's head and demand payment on pain of death?

Some utopians have claimed to be socialist, but Marx, Engels and others had [and we have] no delusions about a perfect world to emerge when a worker state is implemented. But rather than relying on Market somehow to resolve social issues, socialism demands that families, communities and professionals and other leaders skilled in matters needing resolution be lead the planning process. Elected officials would be tasked to implement the plan.

Because, there will be critics of a world-wide system of socialists. And some (plenty) of it will be valid! Politicians?!! Plenty will go wrong.

This much is correct – socialist were the impetus for all of the gains of the working class – the elimination of child labor, the 8 hour day/40 hour work week, etc. In so far as this has impeded profit interests, socialism is regarded as a sworn enemy by Capitalist overlords.

What are a few of the problems with true socialism (in your study of it)?

We understand that mental illness, which manifests in varying degrees of severity, can prevent people from functioning at a level necessary to meet the requirements of home ownership under Kapital. This touches on 'treatable' illnesses. This is not to say that everyone will be able to function at the necessary level under Kapital -- even with greatly expanded mental health services. But no one -- and certainly no family -- should have to live on the streets.

Are you sure that in the socialist worldview you espouse, a guarantee can be given of limited or no homelessness. Some of our world's people are homeless due to imperialistic wars causing them to become mental cases: Socialism can end war?

If I recall correctly, you're a churchman. Bear in mind that a strain of Judaeo-Christian practice has always affirmed this. The Sh'abbot intended to banish extremes both of wealth and poverty. While there's no evidence that it was ever practiced, the Jubilee -- a 'Sh'abbot of Sh'abbots' -- required that lands/property return to the original owning family -- regardless of how it came to be lost. Isaiah proclaimed a minimal social vision in which every man -- however modest his means -- had his own plot, fig-tree, a roof over his head, etc. The one who died at 100 would be regarded as a mere infant. This is a minimal social vision. Socialism demands no less.

Well said. A few notices:

1.  I am not Jewish. I do not live under Jewish customs. (Though I find no fault with them. Smile.)
2. Jubilee is not practiced in any church I am familiar. (Though it is spoken of in symbolic ways/services.)

I wish to have a proper context of separation of customs, traditions, doctrines, and usages!

Of course canonical 'proof-texts' both can be and often are cited to garnish religious support for corrupt policies. But this is different. You see here a perspective that is rooted in institutions preserved for millennia. Moreover, the apocalypse also draws on many motifs related to the manifestation of the empire of Yahweh as opposed to the empire of man. So long as we're discussing a spectrum, I suppose we could put 'Egypt' [and all that represents] on one end -- and on the other, put the Sh'abbot/Exodus [the Older Testament equivalent to Jesus' cross]/the Isaiah vision/etc.

How much 'Egypt' did Joseph's children need? None! As it is told, they left.

It isn't my intention to be bogged down in theological wrangling. If I'm correct, you're the churchman. But perhaps this will encourage reflection on these matters from another perspective.

Eureka! One who relates!

What I don't get is why good churchmen argue with their own canonical resources on these things.

This, I don't clearly comprehend  Please elaborate its relevancy (to me).

So transfer control to the working class.

On  whom's authority?

'...there will be critics of a world-wide system of socialists ... And some (plenty) of it will be valid!'

I think you're asserting that a socialist future won't differ from a Capitalist present. Note that under socialism, it will be not politicians but workers and professionals from every sector and industry in every state/city/community/subdivision who make the decisions regarding matters affecting them. Will mistakes be made? Are we human?

The point is that the people themselves will be making the decisions about resources, production and social policy; they will direct their own future. Socialism frees up resources for making societies healthy and democratizes the decision making process. Public officials are reduced to what they ought to be -- public workers, not Masters of the public.

'What are a few of the problems with true socialism (in your study of it)?'

Anything that can happen in life! Again, socialists are not utopians. Can a virus erupt in a socialist world? Of course it can. But in a socialist world, working families, parents, students and educators, trusted scientists, health care professionals, health care workers, etc. will be able to work together to implement the policies needed to contain the virus and make it die off. Lock-down would be required for a few weeks or few months [depending on transmission rate in a given region]. Vaccines would be available and universally mandatory.

No socialist proclaims a 'problem-free' existence under socialism. Socialism is a system which empowers families, workers and communities to find solutions to them.

I am not passing a value judgement on world-wide socialism. I have nothing to compare it to or any shared experience to relate. What will be the role of elected officials (@2.1.49 politicians) in a world-wide socialist society?

That said (above) I can imagine one significant set of issues with true socialism:

How shall world-wide socialism deal with true geniuses among the assemblage?

Extraordinary minds like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos,  Sir Richard Branson; other creative, imaginative, and inventive minds? Not according to their ability to achieve and amass wealth, instead let's discuss how socialism deals with "break-out," revolutionary thinkers!

Lock-down would be required for a few weeks or few months [depending on transmission rate in a given region]. Vaccines would be available and universally mandatory.

Or if necessary lock-down for an indefinite duration? Universally mandatory vaccinations world-wide. . . . strikes me would require an enforcement wing of governance. Incidentally, these 'boards' of leaders in socialist society will be governing boards on behalf of the people?  What happens when one board inevitably gets 'stuck' in opposition to a another equally empowered board over what constitutes an epidemic or pandemic vaccine response?

Indefinite lockdown isn't necessary. And if it is asked how long must we endure these pandemic response measures, I reply, 'how long must we bear exposure to and illness from this disease.'

We have conflicting responses now. We know why, and we know what economic interests drive each campaign. Politicized narrative and partisanship are overlaid on science as some claim for 'herd immunity' [let 'er rip] and others for mitigation [negotiate with virus].

Natural selection is unfolding before our eyes. Mutations which reproduce more successfully will become dominant. The virus has one vulnerability, and that must be used against it. It requires an host to survive. This is definitely doable. We've beaten small pox, typhoid, diphtheria, tuberculosis, polio, etc. We don't have to 'live with' [whatever that means] these afflictions, and the same applies to COVID.

We know as a matter of scientific certainty that mass infections are coming. Schools are reopening and disasters are unfolding already. They're going to get worse.

There is no 'inevitability' to pandemic response gridlock; the science is not at issue. The questions are, 'who will determine what the response is,' and 'on what basis will that be determined.' We know already that economics [i.e., profit extraction] is the driver [ex: 'the cure can't be worse than the disease'].

There are some things that you just don't do. You don't expose people -- above all, not our children -- to a pathogen of unknown consequences [i.e., Long COVID].

We stand between civilization and barbarism. We face this choice between the way out, and the pathway to tremendous loss and suffering. So are we going to protect people from the suffering this disease inflicts? This is a severe disease. It produces devastating levels of suffering. What does it mean to march unprotected children into schools?

A unified response is not only possible; it is necessary to human being. Neither does this virus' transmission and the means of ending it. Our common humanity, the virus itself, and the global nature of pandemic require it. The same science applies universally. Boyle's law and gravity do not change with borders.

Worker committees now forming are the next form of governance as it exists in its most incipient form. These must continue to multiply, establish communication lines between them, and unite with workers around the world under the banner of the International Workers' Alliance of Rank and File Committees [IWA - RFC]. It is there that we will develop leadership as responsibility is taken for more and more matters of concern to the working class, society and our world.

'How shall world-wide socialism deal with true geniuses among the assemblage?'

Put them in leadership!

Trotsky was one of those. The problem isn't with Branson, Bezos or Musk. If I was a Capitalist, I'd buy Virgin Galactic stock. The problem is that under Kapital, their considerable talents will never be used to solve social problems. Space exploration, systems of distribution and logistics matter tremendously to society! Ditto for world-class medical researchers, mathematicians and so forth.

Your question really concerns the development of culture under socialism. Why not set aside a chunk of what is now privately consumed as profit to support the work of our brightest minds? That way, even if great ideas were stubbornly problematic or even had to be abandoned, the owners of those minds wouldn't have to fear for their future when their funding dried up.

By the way, did you know that Albert Einstein regarded himself a socialist?

As I recall, he was no slouch either.

Thank you for taking the time to answer. All for now. Time for reflection. I await your next article.

About what one could expect from a bioengneered virus.

The China virus.

Why don't you (and your thumb-upper) go out and smash a few Chinese people in the face, kick them in the head when they're down?  Maybe that'll make you feel better.

Why don't you (and your thumb-upper) go out and smash a few Chinese people in the face, kick them in the head when they're down?  Maybe that'll make you feel better.

Why would i do that?

Less emotion Buzz and more reason.

That's the ticket ....

Anyone who would repeat the most scientifically denied conspiracy theory and repeat the xenophobic language that incites racial hatred is bound to feel better if he does those things.  I forgot to suggest that the victims should be over the age of 80 and frail so they're not able to defend themselves.  Makes it safer and easier.

Anyone who would repeat the most scientifically denied conspiracy theory and repeat the xenophobic language that incites racial hatred is bound to feel better if he does those things.

[deleted]  Will it make you feel better if it's more specific?  Let's call it the CCP WUHAN LAB ENGINEERED BIOWEAPON VIRUS.

[deleted]

Nah but i repeat.   Less emotion and more reason Buzz .... it will serve you well in the end.

That said, the most "scientifically denied" conspiracy theory?   That is an absolutely ridiculous supposition.   China has fought every effort to find out what really happened.   Those aren't the actions of a innocent nation.

The real truth will come out and when it does China will be shown to be the evil empire that it is.

Take that one to the bank and cash it .....

The real truth will come out and when it does China will be shown to be the evil empire that it is.

Take that one to the bank and cash it .....

Perhaps, but regardless the truth will set us free.

I for one can't believe anyone has the huevos to defend China in all this.   They clearly have much to answer for.  

Anyone with a modicum of unbiased can surmise that much by their actions alone.

And more evidence instead of disinformation. Where is your proof of bio-engineered COVID-19? Before you answer this, lead with the evidence requested.

exexpatnowinva, don't even try it with Buzz. You call him a 'spokesperson' where is your proof of it? If you don't have it (and you don't) then do not be a ass to assert it as so! We all DISCUSSION positions here. Buzz, has a perspective from China because it is where he lives. I will not sit by and watch you insult him simply for speaking up and out! Says this voter from California.

Do you defend Donald Trump for being an evil, conniving ass? Although, it is likely you do not know Trump personally.

The real truth will come out and when it does China will be shown to be the evil empire that it is. Take that one to the bank and cash it .....

Supposition. You can't cash supposition at any bank as you well know. So just more invective borne of chest-pounding!

Of course, republicans vomit-filled hands are "clean" - let some conservatives tell it. Grow up already, some conservatives. Time to grow up!

Sparty On, let's start here: You are Unbiased? You?! Incidentally, I blame some conservatives for the managing of COVID-19 in red-states especially to this date. Look at 'stupid' Florida COVID policy prescriptions from its some conservative governor!  (I would link to a story about it, but you should be keeping up on your own-even though you won't mention it.)

exexpatnowinva, don't even try it with Buzz. You call him a 'spokesperson' where is your proof of it? If you don't have it (and you don't) then do not be a ass to assert it as so! We all DISCUSSION positions here. Buzz, has a perspective from China because it is where he lives. I will not sit by and watch you insult him simply for speaking up and out! Says this voter from California.

[deleted] 

...that we, as in the USA, had a hand in financing that Wuhan fiasco...

After Paul and Fauci had their last exchange, I really started looking into what was being funded. Ralph Baric was damn sure doing gain of function research. When he got shut down, he shipped everything to Wuhan. Peter Daszak was a contributor on his work. Daszak's work was allegedly suspended for possible gain of function research that fell in to the PPP category, but never stopped, and was admittedly not submitted to the PPP review board at the NIH, because somebody determined (albeit without submitting it to the review board) that it didn't merit review by the board because it wasn't risky enough to warrant review by the board. Talk about a circle jerk. The board established to make the determination wasn't presented with the question, because somebody else made the ultimate determination of the thing the board was established to determine? Why is Fauci holding so hard to his statement that the NIH wasn't funding GOF research? Because to admit knowledge potentially throws the US under the bus. 

salk

Old news, but I would have expected to see something like this being circulated in the media. (maybe it was, but it damn sure did not make headlines) I'll note that, in the 1st paragraph, the article suggests that the virus spike protein behaves differently than "those safely encoded by vaccines." The thrust of the article, however, is that this is a vascular issue, which is supported by the fact that the wide array of symptoms experienced all have vascular underpinnings, and that the spike protein is the culprit. 

I'm not sure what "those safely encoded by vaccines" is intended to mean. The Salk research suggests that the spike proteins are what is causing the problems. I wish they would have taken a position on vaccine encoded spike proteins. Their research described researchers creating a “pseudovirus” that was surrounded by SARS-CoV-2 classic crown of spike proteins, but did not contain any actual virus. Question. How were the spike proteins in the pseudo virus different than the spike proteins created as a result of the vaccine? Don't know. Wish they would have made a statement with regard to that.

academic.oup

We were told the vaccine stayed local. Ogata's research suggests that the Spike Proteins are found in the blood, throughout the body, days after the vaccine. Not sure why that would be a surprise. But, again, Ogata's research apparently disclosed something the vaccine producers either knew and didn't tell, or intentionally misled on...the fact that the spike protein production isn't limited to the locus of the vaccination site. Read in conjunction with the Salk Institute's report, and addressing the elephant in the room, which is the history of adverse events with vascular underpinnings, it is not much of leap to say that 1) the spike protein is the culprit, and the cause for the symptoms, 2) the spike protein the vaccines are intended to illicit the production of are found throughout the body after vaccination, and 3) hundreds of millions of people have taken an injection of something designed to illicit the production of Spike Proteins, the very thing the Salk Institute research suggests is the actual problem.

We know the vaccines can cause blood clots, myocarditis, and various other adverse effects, including death, which all have vascular underpinnings. They are now admitting that you can transmit the virus while vaccinated. Other countries are reporting numbers that indicate that the vaccinated have as much a chance to get covid as the non-vaccinated crowd. Yet, the CDC continues to push the vaccine on a group of people that have a 0.003% chance of having an adverse reaction to the virus. According VAERS information, the chance of suffering a permanent disability, life threatening event, or death from the vaccine is 0.009%. Low I would admit, but 3 times higher than simply getting the virus. 

We'll without a thorough "truly independent" investigation we don't know and since China haa fought all attempts at an independent investigation it logically leads one to wonder what they are trying to hide?

And before you say that is not evidence understand we won't agree on that.   China has been stalling and offering an aggressive disinformation campaign since late 2019.  

Countries who have nothing to hide don't do that.

You'll be eating your words soon enough

CB, this article isn't about me .... so lets start there ......

'Let's call it the CCP WUHAN LAB ENGINEERED BIOWEAPON VIRUS.'

I for one would call this the internet version of shouting 'FIRE' in a crowded theater.

To what part of the article were you referring again?

'China has fought every effort to find out what really happened.'

An argument without a premise.

Dr. Shi Zhengli is the director of the Center for Emerging Infectious Diseases at the Wuhan Institute of Virology [WIV] in Jianxia District, Wuhan City. She has devoted her efforts to analyzing the SARS family of viruses that triggered a 2002 pandemic, to protect humanity against a future pandemic. Her work on coronaviruses [CoVs] has been critical to understanding the pandemic potential of these pathogens. Her work was vital to the quick identification of the novel coronavirus causing the unusual penumonias in Wuhan in December 2019.

Dr. Shi reacted to these efforts by saying this:

How on earth can I offer up evidence for something where there is no evidence? I don't know how the world has come to this...'

That puts the matter well.

An argument without a premise maintained by dismissing evidence to the contrary followed by the reassertion of the original claim.

No one wasting time on this board has the credentials or Dr. Shi. But that doesn't stop filth from producing ever more filth.

Do you defend Biden as a coddling, incoherent demented old fool? Although, it is also likely you do not know Biden personally.

'...this article isn't about me .'

Neither are your posts. If continuing to post on this thread, kindly indicate to what part of the article you are replying.

Those aren't the actions of a innocent nation.

It's insane to me that anyone would defend the actions of a country that literally arrested people for simply trying to alert the world of this disease (not to mention destroyed evidence, lied to the WHO, publicly claimed the virus was created in America, spread anti vaccine propaganda  etc etc.)

Even if, by some incredible coincidence,  the virus just happened to jump to humans on the doorstep of the virus labs, China's guilty as hell for it's conduct. 

But of course, [deleted] always have a part to play in  defending atrocities by totalitarian governments. 

If you need a "truly independent investigation" and you do not have it then you can't just call reach a conclusion out of whole cloth, Sparty On! Even if you have suspicions that something is being hidden-the correct method is to "break in" get the data and then establish its results. "Stalling" is not circumstantial evidence.

In fact it is supposition (and poorly constructed one at that) to state as fact something is hidden simply because it is not shown or delivered in hand.

If so - let it be. However, you could just as easily chew on your own words in due course. "Evil empire" indeed! As if we are God's country with all this nation's bull patty!

Stop leveling charges at China and produce evidence to support your viewpoint. It is no less than what you ask of anybody else in a case like this. Unless you're just throwing around an opinion.

Prove Biden is what you say he is first. And no I do not know Biden personally. That is my point: You proudly support Donald Trump and his ass is trifling to the utmost!

Clearly there are news reports today across the media about the China virus coming out of the lab at wuhan. It’s pretty darn conclusive.  

A newly issued report from Republican lawmakers claims that there is a “preponderance of evidence” to strongly suggest that COVID-19 escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China rather than mutating naturally from a bat, as first suspected.

Republicans on the House Foreign Affairs Committee point to evidence of a lab leak in their report along with genetic modification, and a resultant cover-up in concluding that the virus accidentally emerged from the lab.

The report states that “the preponderance of evidence suggests SARS-CoV-2 was accidentally released from a Wuhan Institute of Virology laboratory sometime prior to September 12, 2019,” and “the virus, or the viral sequence that was genetically manipulated, was likely collected in a cave in Yunnan province, PRC, between 2012 and 2015.”

U.S. intelligence agencies have been tasked by President Joe Biden to report on the origins of the virus. The intelligence community has yet to submit the findings.

The report goes on to say that Wuhan lab scientists, Chinese Communist Party officials, and “potentially American citizens” all “directly engaged in efforts to obfuscate information related to the origins of the virus and to suppress public debate of a possible lab leak.”

The leader of the Republican’s China Task Force, Rep. Michael McCaul of Texas, previously released a report in September alleging a China cover-up that also contained a number of serious concerns regarding the Wuhan lab.

“I do think it’s more likely than not that it emerged out of the lab — most likely accidentally — for several reasons. … It was just declassified that three of the researchers were actually hospitalized in November of 2019 with flu-like symptoms consistent with COVID. That was suppressed by the Chinese Communist Party,” McCaul said told CNN’s Jake Tapper in May.

“Since that time in December, they silenced and detained the doctors who were reporting a SARS-like virus, which under international health regulations had to be reported within 24 hours. They went and destroyed lab samples,” he added.

“They wouldn’t admit it was human-to-human [transmission]. And then, working with the WHO, failed to report to the world that we had a local epidemic that was now going into a global pandemic. So time and time again, we’re seeing this cover-up,” he said.

The latest report “outlines evidence that points to the Wuhan Institute of Virology as the source of the outbreak, and outlines some of the many steps researchers at the WIV along with Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance took to cover up the research being done there.”

In addition, it “breaks down how scientific papers written by researchers at the WIV not only prove the WIV was doing dangerous genetic modification research on coronaviruses at unsafe biosafety levels, but also that WIV researchers had the ability to genetically modify coronaviruses as early as 2016 without leaving any trace of that modification.”

McCaul says he thinks the time has come to “completely dismiss” the theory that the virus emerged from a Wuhan wet market, as initially reported.

“We know gain-of-function research was happening at the WIV and we know it was being done in unsafe conditions,” he said. ‘

“We also now know the head of the Chinese CDC and the director of the WIV’s Biosafety Level-4 lab publicly expressed concerns about safety at PRC labs in the summer of 2019. It is our belief the virus leaked sometime in late August or early September 2019,” the Texas Republican added.

“When they realized what happened, Chinese Communist Party officials and scientists at the WIV began frantically covering up the leak, including taking their virus database offline in the middle of the night and requesting more than $1 million for additional security,” he continued.

“But their cover-up was too late — the virus was already spreading throughout the megacity of Wuhan. Within a month, satellite images show a significant uptick in the number of people at hospitals around the WIV with symptoms similar to COVID-19,” said McCaul, referencing data contained in the new report.

“At the same time, athletes at the Military World Games became sick with symptoms similar to COVID-19. Some of them carried the virus back to their home countries — creating one of the earliest super spreader events in the world.”

The report speculates that researchers at the lab inadvertently caught the virus and then spread it when they traveled to and from work.

The GOP lawmakers said the report “lays out ample evidence that researchers at the WIV, in conjunction with U.S. scientists and funded by both the PRC government and the U.S. government, were conducting gain-of-function research on coronaviruses at the WIV.”

The conclusion is that there is “ample proof that the virus could have been genetically manipulated.”

trendingpolitics

"Will it make you feel better if it's more specific?  Let's call it the CCP WUHAN LAB ENGINEERED BIOWEAPON VIRUS."

I don't tolerate conspiracy theories no matter how complex you want to make them.

"Would you defend Canada so vigorously it they were being investigated for dropping the worst pandemic in memorable history on the world, and covered up everything? My guess is no."

Then you guess wrong.  And obviously either you have not seen previous comments made by me, or else you are lying about it, where I have on NT criticized the CCP and Chinese officials for silencing the doctor who first reported the virus.  I am critical though of false accusations and conspiracy theories, even if they are posted about YOUR country. 

I do not disagree with you that China has not been transparent, and I have already said that on NT but continue to be accused of defending China when it is accused of things for which there is no proof.  You accuse what I said of being a supposition when the genetically modified virus intentionally released from the lab is so pie in the sky it will slap you in the face. 

You said "The real truth will come out when it does..." which means your accusations are NOT THE TRUTH, and your predictions are just that - predictions.

"I for one can't believe anyone has the huevos to defend China in all this."

I for one can't believe that a person who has the intelligence to use a computer has the "huevos" to not only believe but to spread conspiracy theories.

"CB, this article isn't about me .... so lets start there ..."...

Nor is it about Buzz....so practise what you preach.

"Clearly there are news reports today across the media about the China virus coming out of the lab at wuhan. It’s pretty darn conclusive."

And of course the media is known to be totally unbiased and does not spread misinformation. s/  And those who believe everything they read in the media are fools.

I think I'd rather wait to see what the 90-Day Intelligence Report has to say before I make any personal decisions.  Relying on a report by the Party that defends Donald Trump is not my cup of tea. 

I have no problem with your referencing another article or even quoting from it. But you shouldn't be posting another article onto a thread that isn't yours. I post quotes with a link to other articles. You should do the same. Don't attempt to hijack others' threads.

Thank-you.

The same republican party 'reps' who think that January 6, 2021 was a 'lovefest' of some sort. Yeah, not "likely" valid. I will do this (which is mentioned at the start of your quote - "U.S. intelligence agencies have been tasked by President Joe Biden to report on the origins of the virus. The intelligence community has yet to submit the findings. " I will wait patiently for a more substantial and lesser partisan perspective to come.

Emphatically.

The real truth will come out and when it does China will be shown to be the evil empire that it is.

Pretty sure the cat's out of the bag on that one already. 

Yeah, it's fun watching the usual suspects here trying to spin around the inevitable.    It will be even more fun watching them try to spin around their denials when the truth is proven even beyond their doubts.

Popcorn acquired .... ready to be popped.

You should mark him off topic and have his deflections removed.  

It's even more amazing watching expat's march in lockstep with their party line.

In China, i guess you have to get along or you go away .....

It's sheer ignorance Buzz

More than that - it's VICIOUS.  Vicious insults from people who have no balls that would run and hide if anyone knew who they REALLY were.

That theory has been discredited by the best scientific minds on the planet. On the other hand, it might be asked where it leaves you when the leader of your particular ruling class faction sought to weaponize that virus against the population by demanding that that the economy be reopened.

No it hasn't..

Provide evidence refuting it..

Where's the evidence supporting it?

In response to the leaked memo, the Biden administration made clear that it has ruled out serious measures to contain the disease. “We are not going to head towards a lockdown,” White House spokesperson Karine Jean-Pierre said Friday.

Hasn't the Trump Admin. been pilloried for "doing nothing"??

'Hasn't the Trump Admin. been pilloried for "doing nothing"??'

Yes. It has. And justly so. The same is equally true for the Biden administration, which Damon's article references 7x for the Trump administration's 1x. This means that the Biden administration replicates Trump administration crimes with the addition of unlimited hypocrisy.

It goes to show that when you follow the directions [quoting the material to which you wish to respond] and state rational grounds in reply, you get a better hearing and more respect.

What a load of political hoo-ha. 

The clinical trials of the vaccines demonstrated there would be breakthrough infections.  A 94 pct efficacy means 6 pct of the fully vaccinated will still become infected and show symptoms.  The clinical trials indicated that out of 160 million fully vaccinated people there would be 10 million breakthrough infections.  At an infection rate of 35,000 per week it would require 270 weeks to account for the number of breakthrough infections predicted during the clinical trials.

An estimated number of breakthrough infections was known when the vaccines received emergency use authorization.  All of this should have been expected before the first dose was administered to the general population.  And all of this was known before there was a delta variant.

Didn't anyone pay attention to the data?

We pay attention to the experts, which does not include you.  

We pay attention to the experts, which does not include you.  

Well, the experts told us there would be breakthrough infections.  All of this was known before Biden was inaugurated.  Health authorities had more than eight months to prepare for this and advise the public.

These secret CDC documents should have been prepared last November when the clinical trial data was being reviewed for emergency use authorization.  The clinical trial data showed there would be breakthrough infections and provided an estimate of the number of breakthrough infections.  What has the CDC been doing all this time?

Attempting to reason, with the unreasonable, is a fools errand.

The are completely impervious to all logic and fact if said logic and fact go against the narrative du jour they happen to be pushing that day

"Attempting to reason, with the unreasonable, is a fools errand. The are completely impervious to all logic and fact if said logic and fact go against the narrative du jour they happen to be pushing that day"

That's exactly what you're guilty of Nerm.