Phase 2 Begins
Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky attempted to initiate a conversation with President Putin but was met with silence. Now mobile communications all over the eastern Ukraine have been jammed. Cyberattacks have taken place throughout the country and explosions can be heard in certain districts. Two hundred thousand Russian troops are on the move. Zelensky told the world only hours ago: “If we come under attack, if we face an attempt to take away our country, our freedom, our lives and lives of our children, we will defend ourselves.”
Joe Biden has now applied sanctions directly on Russia. He managed to get Germany to freeze the Nord Stream pipeline. He has no more cards left to play. As Robert Gates, former defense secretary in the Obama administration, once put it, Biden has “been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades.” And that's when he had a functioning brain. Like most liberal democrat leaders, he is weak and that weakness was on full display in the botched withdrawal from Afghanistan.
Biden does not get all the blame, however. It is Putin that made this play. The Ukrainians are brave & courageous. They will fight and there will be a heavy cost to this.
The Russian invasion is underway. The US and NATO allies have condemned Russia and and are imposing more sanctions after Moscow launched an attack on Ukraine and Kyiv overnight. President Vladimir Putin left a little message for Joe Biden, who is most likely in bed: “consequences you have never seen" to any country that tries to interfere!"
Vladimir Putin has just declared war.
As Thursday morning breaks, more than 40 Ukrainian troops and at least 10 civilians have been killed in the hours since Russia launched attacks on the country only hours ago.
Red markings denote places where attacks have been reported. ( The New York Times)
Joe Biden helped keep Ukraine out of NATO as Vice President, saying they needed to work on their corruption while his family indulged the corruption and got rich. Now Russia is at the door and will slaughter innocent Ukrainians. How shameful.
Your statement is false, not for its content but for what it does not say.
May God bless the Ukrainian people and their efforts to defend their homeland against fascist aggression.
Morning xx..
Very well said...
I will gladly and heartily and with great pride second that.
B effen S. You're a Manafort patsy.
"...Trump expressed his desire on numerous occasions for the United States to withdraw from NATO altogether. He did so while campaigning for president in 2016. He did so as president . And apparently, he even made clear to advisers he hoped to make it a reality after he won re-election in 2020.
Since such a withdrawal is Putin's fondest wish, it makes far greater sense to suppose his relative restraint during the Trump presidency was a function of a reasonable expectation he might get everything he wanted without having to fire a shot. Only now, with a less … unorthodox American president in charge, has war become Putin's only means of advancing his more immediate aim of ensuring NATO moves no closer to Russian territory.
Putin didn't play nice guy from 2017 to 2020 because he was afraid of Donald Trump. He did so because he knew he had nothing to fear from the fanboy in the Oval Office."
So what you are saying is that Trump just continued Biden's presumed policy?
Look, Ukraine was never going to be part of NATO. This conflict has absolutely nothing to do with NATO.
i will admit , they have waffled much since the fall of the soviet union , but to say "never"? too absolute , things change and right now im betting they wish they had earlier , some say sweden and finland would never be part of NATO , but its being admitted and discussed now in both those countries , the discussion has changed significantly , i have read from foreign news agencies that even estonia and latvia are considering a different tact due to the current situation , seems none of them wish to be under the russian sphere of influence or yoke as is said .
If Putin is having a kaniption now about possible economic clout for his country , imagine what comes if all the former soviet sphere lines up against him with old adversaries ...those that were in that sphere , likely have very long memories as to how they and their countries were treated by moscow , and the kremlin .
Well, I have to admit, there was a time in my life when I was an absolutist.
But Ukraine first tried in 2008, Ukraine itself, or at least its leader, shelved that idea in 2010. Since then, there has been much hemming and hawing, but no real attempt to do anything. Thus, the never, as NATO itself seemed to have no real desire to bring in Ukraine.
agreed , and i think mainly because they could have been viewed as the fox in the hen house so to speak , but things do change as they always do.
Like i said , i think many in the area are now rethinking the delay of committing to either the EU or nato or both .
they are where they are now because of it .
At this point the only way Ukraine does not become a member of NATO is if Russia takes the whole country... They just have to complete their MAP and then vote for accession...
That's the only way for Putin to keep them out... current sentiment in Ukraine is running almost 66% in favor of accession... (and they only have 8 nations left to accept their completion of their MAP)
Odd. Trump, Pompeo, many on FOX and other right-wing media outlets would have issue with the premise of this-------------seed.
War is hell.
I know. Vietnam 68-69 B-Troop 7/17th Air Cavalry 3rd 506th 101st Airbourne.
Your assessment of post #2 was expected.
I don't know anything about you and I don't need to. Let's just leave the personal stuff out of it.
Everything is personal. From 'Lock her up' to 'Hang Mike Pence' demands it. The right wing bought it, brought it so let them revel in it.
if this war escalates, it's really going to suck for those in this country that are perceived to be russian supporters.
personally , I think Fox has more liberal/progressive viewers than they do conservative or moderate , at least it appears that way .
Not according to NT.
That's strong patriotism coming from someone who calls Americans "racist!"
Remember, anything that goes against their narrative, regardless of how cartoonish, is a "personal attack" to somebody on the left.
They are partly to blame for this. Let us never forget!
people that can't accept the full width and breadth of the constitution aren't americans.
There was a time when an American President spoke, Putin listened:
Those people begin with Joe Biden.
Instead of calling people names maybe we should all ask ourselves if Biden can stop Putin.
No you have it backwards. Did Putin make any stupid moves when Trump was President? NOPE. Just when Obama and now Biden were in the oval..............deal with your losing party of weak assed pussies.
Let's leave Trudeau out of this
That's quite a sweeping generalization.....based on what? Hillary Clinton propaganda?
Let's talk facts:
Lefties like Sen. Bernie Sanders suggested that America recognize Russian concerns about Ukraine joining NATO and blaming the West for rising tensions.
It was Bill Clinton who nixed the Ukraine having nuclear weapons.
The record of who supported Russia is clear.
BTW, Does anyone think that Biden's vow to defend every inch of NATO territory means anything to the Ukraine?
I'm going to ignore the partisan bullshit that tends to sweep these conversations as some people just cannot talk about any topic without bringing in their partisan baggage.
I think most of us can agree that when Kennedy forced Moscow to remove the missiles from Cuba it was a good thing. We didn't want missiles and an easy spring-board to attack the USA that close to us. Could this been avoided if we and NATO had been firm in keeping Ukraine out of NATO?
When the Budapest Memorandum signed by Russia, Ukraine, Britain and the United States, promised that none of the nations would use force or threats against Ukraine and all would respect its sovereignty and existing borders. The agreement also vowed that, if aggression took place, the signatories would seek immediate action from the United Nations Security Council to aid Ukraine. The problem here is that resolution of breaking this agreement was tossed to the UN which is almost as useless as the old League of Nations was.
I get it. Today is a resounding humiliation for Biden supporters and those who’ve weakened America with too many years of neoliberal foreign policy.
Let's call it Biden's day of infamy!
Two things on that. The missiles in Cuba were never going to be defended by the old Soviet Union. Nikita Khrushchev eventually admitted that. Cuba was in America's back yard, just like the Ukraine is in Russia's back yard.
Second, JFK didn't really force the Soviets out. He used a stick and an enormous carrot. Khrushchev came out of that with a secret agreement that the US would never again seek to invade Castro's Cuba and the US took missiles out of Turkey. All that for a country the Soviets were never going to fight for.
When the Budapest Memorandum signed by Russia, Ukraine, Britain and the United States, promised that none of the nations would use force or threats against Ukraine and all would respect its sovereignty and existing borders. The agreement also vowed that, if aggression took place, the signatories would seek immediate action from the United Nations Security Council to aid Ukraine. The problem here is that resolution of breaking this agreement was tossed to the UN which is almost as useless as the old League of Nations was.
Clinton loved treaties. The problem is Russia doesn't abide by them. Had the Ukraine had nuclear weapons, Putin would NEVER have made this move.
Another thing that is quite clear is how Putin is financing this massive military adventure: His coffers are full of energy profits.
Trump relentlessly pursued a regulatory & legislative agenda to make America energy independent and it worked: In 2018, the U.S. became the worlds largest crude oil producer, producing 15% of global crude oil, surpassing Russia and Saudi Arabia.
Biden unraveled it in 1 year.
The US was the top oil producer in 2020 and will be again in 2021.
We had the Russian pipeline sanctioned. Biden and the Democrats removed the sanctions and that gave Putin a green light.
Wake up!
[deleted]
two peas on a pod...
we should ask ourselves why putin is twice as popular as biden with trump supporters.
So, you CAN'T disprove anything in 2.1.22 so you turn to meme's.
It was Obama who said "The '80s called, they want their foreign policy back," and nobody was kinder to them than he was.
But you can't get off the hook. Biden is president and he enabled Putin and all that followed....
and you are a Biden supporter!
Trump knew that a strong, self-assured, powerful America - energy independent, border defended, streets protected, economy resurgent, culture confident, citizenry proud, military unmatched & U.S. interests placed first - meant a world at peace.
Biden’s wokeness & weakness brings war.
You supported Biden!
Watch what happens to just about anyone running for office with a (D) after their name.
And we also heard from Hunter & Joe's friends:
"Taiwan reports nine Chinese aircraft in defense zone."
http:// hill.cm/dHZ1X2i
Another false analogy.
Criticizing Brandon is not the same thing as supporting Putin.
Brandon deserves every last bit of criticism he has received; and it would be far more if the lame stream media wasn't in the tank for him.
So you are not American then.
Proof
[deleted]
If by energy independent we are talking about producing enough of our own petroleum products to the point where we net export more than we import (the standard definition), then "whatshisnames" policies from 2017 through 2020, and certainly some help from the Covid pandemic, achieved that goal in the last part of 2019 and through 2020 and part of 2021 per the EIA data HERE . The short term outlook is that we will return to net importer status in 2022, but it is possible that 2023 will turn back around as long as the trend back toward the record US crude oil production levels of 2019 and early 2020 continues. The question is, will it continue?
More info here when considering imports and exports of all forms of energy (not just petroleum energy) -
The United States was a net total energy exporter in 2019 and 2020
Anyway, does that answer your question and erase your incorrect all-caps answer?
It is well that war is so terrible — lest we should grow too fond of it.
Attributed to R. E. Lee, most likely apocryphal.
But still, for those of my generation, a rather nice sentiment.
and i dont as i have said pay attention to Fox , nor them .
Another thing people do not take into consideration , we export a lot of crude , but we import a lot of the refined product back, closer to zero sum , the better .
BREAKING:
UN Security Council holds emergency meeting amid threat of full-scale Russian invasion
http:// hill.cm/9biUTtk
And that's all the UN is going to do.
Express outrage?
I'm afraid so.
Tell me. What war has the UN ever stopped or prevented.
Militarily, the UN (Useless Nations) is pretty much a paper tiger.
Breaking: Putin announces ‘special military operation’ inside Ukraine
Russian President Vladimir Putin reportedly has announced that he has ordered his military to conduct a "special military operation” in Donbas, a significant rise in the tensions surrounding Ukraine and its breakaway Donbas regions.
Putin is going to end up with another Chechnya
thing to watch i think , will be the measure of how strenuous the resistance is ,
If someone wants their autonomy and freedom , they will fight for it
Do you think first and second generations Americans from Ukraine and the former Soviet states would ever vote for a democrat for president again?
Vic , I cant say .
Politically i am an independent who is somewhat moderate ,
My views change from liberal , moderate and conservative dependent on the particular issue . I am undoubtably a fiscal conservative , but socially am moderate to liberal . again dependant on the single issues .
So i am tied to no one particular political party, what i do is look at the candidates individually , yes i do look at party platforms knowng the candidates will usually fall in line with those platforms .
As for what you ask , i think they will do what they will , and look at the candidate and then the party before casting their votes .
All that is fine.
I only have one question, without any concern for how you voted last time.
Would you, as an independent vote for Joe Biden in 2024?
simple answer is not no , but F*CK NO.
MY personal reasons are my own .
I'm just trying to get an idea of where independents are. We have very few here on NT.
Dont look at me , i am not representative of independents , i think for myself too much
people can have my opinion if they ask , but that is all it is , and thats all its worth , with it and a buck and a half one might get a cup of coffee.
Not likely but it depends on who is running. I would be greatly disappointed if the best choice of all candidates is Biden. As for Trump (FYI) my answer is that I cannot think of any viable candidate worse than Trump so I would not vote for Trump.
I will repeat my hope (not my expectation) that in 2024 the ticket will have actual choices in both D and R sides (candidates one could vote for, not against) and that none of them have the last name Trump, Clinton, Harris or Biden.
Today Biden will try and unite our allies against Putin. The big question will then be can President Biden keep America’s European allies united against Russia?
Europe get 40% of it's energy from Russia.
Will Europe adopt harsh sanctions against Russia, or primarily protect its own interests?
The faster and harder Mr. Biden hits Moscow, the better. Right now he has international support for tough sanctions on Russia and more-generous and more-lethal aid to Ukraine, but that could fade over time, along with opportunities to stop Putin. The old adage was never more relevant: Time is of the essence.
And there it is: it didn't take long for Beijing to announce Taiwan 'is not Ukraine' but an 'inalienable part of China.'
yep. Read an interesting article the other day about how China is being very careful with what they say and how they support Russa as they are looking for support from Russia for their future plans for Taiwan.
The Washington Post has a skewed article on it today.
At 3:PM EST
Here is what we know:
I almost believe China has something to do with Putin moving on Ukraine.
Putin won when he basically annexed the two Russian separatist areas in Ukraine. He could have moved troops in permanently and set up shop. Let things relax back and get to a new "normal" for the area. He would still have over 2 and 3/4's years of the human fuck up machine being in the Oval Office to take advantage of. The longer the Russian troops were in Ukraine- the louder the calls would be on Ukraine's president to remove them by force. I really do believe Ukraine would have moved on Russian forces- and it wouldn't have taken years to do it. Once that occurred Ukraine would be on it's own.
Unless NATO was making a case for Ukraine to give the two areas to Russia in return for full membership; and Putin had to move before that occurred. But there is no evidence that was the case.
By attacking Ukraine outright, (and the NATO countries around it with cyber warfare), Putin has drawn more US troops into the area; and pulled all NATO countries into getting their troops prepared for deployment. That is the exact opposite of what he wants. If he wants Ukraine to be the start of a domino effect.
Maybe he is drawing US forces in for China to take Taiwan with little or no resistance. The US doesn't have troops to fight a two front war. China could present the world with a fiat accompli on Taiwan in a couple of days. The US would then have to redeploy it's forces away from NATO border states to bolster our allies in the Pacific that would be under direct threat from China. We all know NATO doesn't do anything militarily w/o the US doing all the heavy lifting. No US in the region and NATO gets to make the harsh decision of face Russia on it's own; or cede Ukraine; and maybe some smaller of the smaller weaker NATO countries to Putin.
Putin is insatiably greedy for power and territory, just like his hero Josef Stalin.
IF Putin were actually concerned just about ethnically russian people in the disputed areas , he would have done exactly what ronin said , simply gone into those areas and set up protection , that is not what is happening ,
he is going into other areas and trying to wipe out the government of an independent state to take control over the entire territory thus securing his countries economic interests and saving an annual 2 billion in payments to that government for the pipeline transporting his countries life blood economically
No question it is an invasion now , or its purpose . The will of the people there be damned .
It was Russian propaganda and the Biden administration & the Defense Department was ahead of the game on pointing it out. The strange thing about Russian propaganda is that it is so unconvincing and childlike in it's approach. We should hook them up with Marc Elias and Mother Jones.
I'd say that's the one thing Biden has done well is publicizing Russia's movements, it's made it impossible for Putin to gin up a pretext that anyone would believe.
Let's face it there are no valid pretexts for an invasion.
I will disagree.
now IF they had simply gone into the disputed areas and set up security for the people wishing to seperate , thats one thing , this country has done that same thing itself in the past , and likely will again in the future .
i even agree with their taking of Chernobyl to make sure that material is not somehow "disappeared" to show up later and used , remember the concern after the soviet fall about all the nuke warheads and where they could possibly show up? same thing to me in reality.
but to take the whole country and demand a "neutrality" agreement dictating what and a country can do and whom they can do it with , that is just a geopolitical land grab by use of force .
Doesn't look to me like they are moving as fast as they would like to.... The Ukrainians may be putting up a bigger fight that is known right now...
or they are guaging their next move .
to quote the hunt for red october , the average russki doesnt take a dump without a pre approved plan .
I think the Ukrainians are putting up as good a fight as they possibly can. I read something strange last night. It said that the Russian army does not bring back bodies in body bags. They identify their casualties and place them in a unique incinerator truck and only ashes in a small container come back. I forgot where I saw it. I thought it might be a money saver.
The Red Army did a lot without approval in WWII when they were losing 7 men for every German they killed.
true, but then the plan was to keep moving forward , the old men sitting in chairs around a table didnt care if the plan of moving forward was still happening . they didnt care what it cost or how it was done or who was in the way and got hurt .
On a side note , i was looking at one of my apps last night , and counted at least 5 US flagged refueling tankers in the air , and 4 AWACS capable aircraft all flying circular routes or or "on station .
keep in mind those are just the craft that didnt turn OFF their transponders like they would during actual war footing would dictate , those i cant see.
It is rather teidious though because to id a craft one has to click on each one individually to see what it is .
One of them, the one covering the black sea , had over 12k people watching it .
"There is no purgatory for war criminals; they go straight to hell ambassador," Ukraine's representative to the United Nations Sergiy Kyslytsya said to his Russian counterpart.
http:// hill.cm/yA2j5bp
Boris Johnson says Russia should face Swift banking sanctions now (better late than never)….but the Germans say NO.
http:// hill.cm/9e25xRm
Time to take a vote:
Did Biden set the stage for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine?
I will say he hasnt made it harder for Putin .
Im waiting to see if this is a repeat of the 50s and 60s with Hungary and Czechoslovakia during the Cold war.
The pictures are coming in:
This sums up the Biden Admin as well as anything:
Biden now: “No one expected the sanctions to prevent anything from happening”
Harris four days ago: Sanctions will “absolutely” deter Putin from invading pic.twitter.com/ZK9JTsaG3M
At this time and for the first time in my life, I am truly ashamed of my government especially the president. At a time when a democratically elected government needs assistance now, let's go Brandon issues half hearted and , by his own admission, ineffective sanctions and is going to wait 30 to find out that they won't work. Ukraine needs help now not in 30 days
At one time we would do anything to help a country invaded by a hostile neighbor even if that meant sending troops. We did so in Korea , we did so in Kuwait and we did in Vietnam although not as successfully. Now our president sits ineffective with his tail between his legs whimpering.
IMHO we should give Ukraine any and all supporting needs including the most severe sanctions possible all the arms it requires and special forces and other military units to secure it's freedom.
Just in , its being said or reported that Putin has warned Finland and Sweden of dire political and military actions should they make a move to join NATO.
HEY VLAD!!!!?? does the Winter war with Finland remind you of anything?
These 2 countries have always remained neutral , guys gone bonkers methinks .
Finnish PM said that the Ukraine situation has caused Finland to look again at NATO.
In December of 2021 they ordered 64 F35 fighter jets from the US.
I saw that a day ago , the statement by putin and its mouth is likely a response to the finnish ;lady
last i knew it was Finland 2 ( there were atually 2 winter wars in the late 30s )
Soviet/ Russia 0
the finns kicked their ass
Following the Continuation War with Finland Moscow and Finland signed the Moscow Armistice. Finland was the only such country that Stalin accorded such to another country in WW II. Finland caused the Soviets so many casualties that it was the only country Stalin was truly worried about fighting.
They did kick Russia's ass in the first one but the second they were overwhelmed but put up very stiff resistance causing major casualties to the Russians.
IMO NATO isn't the main problem for Putin, he wants to re-establish the Russian empire or Tsarist if you choose. He wants to go into the history books as the person the rebuilt the Russian empire.
If I remember correctly Hitler saw the poor performance by the Russians and that was a force in him believing that he could win a war with Russia.
I forgot to add that Norway has been receiving F35 starting in 2018 I believe. They will have a total of 52 F35s
Sweden is the wildcard since they keep the number of aircraft secret but it is said to have anywhere from 200 to close to a 1,000.
The Gripen is built in Sweden and is considered to be one of the best non stealth fighters in the world.
Denmark ordered 27 F35s and the first ones were delivered in 2021.
A lot of people dont realize the reason stalin had such a hard time with the finns , not that the finns are not formitable , is that the purges of the military officers with experience , Stalin ordered that himself he had no experienced general officers left that would tell him something was out of reach for the men .
Ive seen a gripen , i was impressed with it just on the ground .
Very true. In addition, many of the Soviet troops were unfamiliar with winter warfare, which the Finn's were experts at. Gustaf Mannerheim, the Finnish general in charge, was also retired from the Russian Imperial Army and thoroughly familiar with Soviet tactics and used that knowledge to beat the Soviets at their own game.
The is a pretty good book on the ''The Great Terror''
Thanks, I'll check it out.
But the Fact remains, both Sweden and Finland have requested an accession plan to NATO and were granted such... they currently are going thru the integration process which will be much easier since they are both democratic republics...
And we know where an accession plan finishes... Both nations, once full integration is approved by the members, will be given the final approval choice...
At that point 97% of Europe will be NATO... (if Ukraine ever gets their chance to vote)
Actually the only major northern hemisphere nations that will not be in NATO is Russia, South Korea and Japan....
"Good morning from Ukraine to those waking up on the east coast.
Kyiv is still standing. Western intel predictions varied, and even most optimistic said city would fall within 2-3 days. But the out-matched Ukrainian military is putting up a valiant fight to defend the city".......Tim Mak