Griner swap wasn't what US hoped for, but what it could get | AP News
Category: News & Politics
Via: perrie-halpern • 3 years ago • 432 commentsBy: ERIC TUCKER (AP NEWS)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
WASHINGTON (AP) — Secretary of State Antony Blinken's surprise announcement last July lacked any detail, but its meaning was crystal clear.
In a rare comment on secret talks, he said the Biden administration had made a "substantial proposal" to Russia to end the imprisonment of two Americans: WNBA star Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan.
The message was plain, for those closely following the cases:
To get Griner and Whelan home, the U.S. would agree to the release of Viktor Bout, an imprisoned Russian arms dealer with the ominous nickname of "the Merchant of Death." The Russians had made no secret of their desire to get Bout home.
On Thursday, Bout and Griner began their journeys home after a dramatic one-for-one swap. Yet Whelan remains imprisoned in Russia. The deal wasn't all that U.S. officials had wanted. But after months of difficult private negotiations and angry public accusations, it was, they concluded, the best they could get.
It came together in the past few days after the administration grudgingly accepted that though the Russians would not budge on Whelan, they were prepared to relent on Griner, creating imperfect but ultimately workable options for a U.S. government under pressure to make a deal.
"This was not a choice for us on which American to bring home. It was a choice between bringing home one American or none," said White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre.
Whelan, a Michigan corporate security executive who had regularly traveled to Russia, was arrested in December 2018 while visiting Moscow for a friend's wedding. He was convicted of espionage charges that he and the U.S. government say are baseless and is serving a 16-year prison sentence.
"For totally illegitimate reasons, Russia is treating Paul's case differently than Brittney's, and while we have not succeeded in securing Paul's release, we are not giving up," Biden said Thursday.
Griner's arrest in February on drug possession charges made her instantaneously the most high-profile American jailed abroad. Her status as a gay Black woman, her prominence in women's basketball and her imprisonment at a time of war combined for an unusual confluence of storylines in sports, politics and diplomacy.
For weeks, the focus seemed to center on legal aspects of the case and questions of her guilt or innocence. But that changed in May after the U.S. designated her a wrongful detainee, a move that placed her case with the government's top hostage negotiator and came just after a separate prisoner swap between the U.S. and Russia.
Griner's guilty plea last summer and nine-year prison sentence made it clear her best hope for release was through a prisoner swap. Blinken's public reveal of a "substantial proposal" created speculation of who beyond Bout, a notorious arms dealer serving a 25-year sentence, the U.S. might be willing to release in a two-for-two exchange — and who else Russia might want.
Lawyers for Alexander Vinnik, an accused Russian cryptocurrency launderer recently extradited to California, advanced his client's name to officials in Russia and the U.S., but he was ultimately left out of Thursday's deal.
"We think that he is a good candidate, remains a good candidate," said one of Vinnik's lawyers, David Rizk. "He's somebody that both sides have a lot of interest in, and he's also somebody who hasn't killed anybody. He hasn't committed any violent crime."
A senior administration official, briefing reporters on condition of anonymity under ground rules set by the White House, said Thursday that the U.S. "explored a wide range of alternatives and permutations that we felt were, frankly, quite generous in resolving both cases." The official did not elaborate.
Throughout the fall, there were few signs of progress, with U.S. officials repeatedly saying that Russia had yet to respond in good faith to their offer. Blinken spoke by phone to Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov in July in the highest-level known contact between the two sides since Russia invaded Ukraine, but Russian officials gave no hint that headway had been made.
As U.S. officials talked directly with Russian counterparts, Bill Richardson, the former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, and top deputy Mickey Bergman held backchannel discussions in Russia and other countries with their own contacts to try to find middle ground.
"We were aiming, working together, for a two-for-two but I think the geopolitical situation prevented us from doing the two-for-two - in other words, the increasingly hostile relationship" between the countries, Richardson said in an interview.
Back in Washington, officials were repeatedly stressing the extent to which the U.S. viewed the cases of Griner and Whelan through the same lens and with the same urgency. In September, Biden hosted Griner's wife, Cherelle, and Whelan's sister, Elizabeth, for separate meetings at the White House.
But the reality, administration officials now say, is that Russia viewed Whelan's case differently, with one official saying Moscow "put him through sham proceedings that convicted him of trumped-up espionage charges." Russia, the official said, had "rejected each and every one of our proposals for his release."
A potential thaw for Griner was evident in recent weeks. Biden told reporters after the midterm U.S. elections that he was hopeful Russia would now be more willing to negotiate her release. A Russian official said last week a deal was possible by the end of the year.
Progress escalated this week. Cherelle Griner was invited to the White House for a meeting with national security adviser Jake Sullivan, and she was with Biden Thursday morning when he was notified Griner was secure.
Brittney Griner was put through to the Oval Office and Biden said, "It's Joe Biden. Welcome, welcome home!" one official said of the conversation.
In anticipation of the transfer, Griner was relocated from the Russian penal colony where she arrived last month and was flown to the United Arab Emirates for the transfer. Arriving there, too, was Bout, who was not presented with his official clemency paperwork until U.S. officials knew Griner was also present.
The deal brought a joyful end to an agonizing wait for Cherelle Griner, who in June told The Associated Press how a phone mixup by the U.S. government left her unable to connect with her wife on the couple's four-year wedding anniversary. Just two months ago she said her wife was at her "absolute weakest moment in life right now."
The final outcome was less joyful for the Whelan family, though they said they supported the administration's action. Elizabeth Whelan was visited in Massachusetts by a U.S. official bearing the news. Paul Whelan himself was also briefed by the administration.
"To realize now that not only didn't it include him, but also that there may not be any other things that the U.S. currently has control over that could bring Paul home — that's a new thing to be thinking about," brother David Whelan said in an interview.
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Putin got what he wanted and Biden did not get what he wanted.
Brandon got what he wanted. The woke morons are happy and calling this a victory.
Whelan doesn't matter in Brandon's world. Play lip service to getting him home; and go back to doing nothing for him.
In reality the world is bracing for the impact the Merchant of Death will have now that he is free.
In reality the world is bracing for the impact the Merchant of Death will have now that he is free.
ROFL!! Yes, we are all quaking in our boots now that the only known “merchant of death” on the planet is free a few years early. We are all DOOMED!! I’m sorry that you are so deflated by the freeing of a gay, black, female American imprisoned on the extremely serious charge of possession of a minuscule amount of therapeutic marijuana extract. Cheer up though, maybe another gay club will get shot up soon to raise your spirits.
So, 7 years is a "few years early". Convicted on terrorism charges. Whole "Merchant of Death" moniker must be media hyperbole. I am sure that Ukraine, Africa, the Middle East, and all US troops stationed abroad don't share your views.
[ deleted ] Griner broke Russian law; she even admitted it. For whatever reason she was deemed she shouldn't serve her time. Brandon got his photo op; and Putin got his right hand man back. What a great fucking trade! [ deleted ] That makes it all worth while!
Since I am against giving up a Russian arms dealer and convicted terrorist for someone that actually broke Russian law I am suddenly for gay night clubs being shot up? [ deleted, meta ]
Guys, I try to give as much leeway with the comments as I can, but I am seeing stuff that looks insulting to the members in several comments. Please stop or I will get a lot more strict with my moderation. Time:1:43 pm
To the gop American gun merchants are patriots but Russian gun dealers are merchants of death. Why can't we just send all of our patriotic gun dealing merchants of death to Russia, too?
[deleted]
The thought process you're defending here is that a convicted arms dealer for a dipshit drug user is a good trade.
Anybody who actually believes that is a complete fucking moron, and I suspect if you were able to look at anything objectively, you would agree. If Trump had made this trade for a rich white Republican kid from Connecticut, you would correctly think that was outrageous.
So what you're actually doing is allowing your rampaging political bias drag you into defending the indefensible. You don't give a fuck because 'yaaaaay Democrats'. That's the kind of bullshit that makes otherwise reasonable people do unreasonable shit like vote for Donald Trump.
Seeing as Bout was 'awol' for more than a dozen years, one would think that the fella who holds all the cards (so I have been told here) would have found a new dealer a dozen years ago. Bout was in jail farting soap bubbles while Putin's minions were buying up arms from NK and its soul-bro Iran.
Apparently Eric Holder saw a difference as Bout got indicted in 2010 and convicted with a 25 year sentence, while US firearm manufacturers haven't.
Whelan is likely a high-level operative considering his training, history and AO.
Trashing Biden for making the only deal available is just stupid and anti-USA.
Since the US is the largest arms dealer in the world, why not trade a small fish?
I imagine that the CIA has tags all over this guy. If not deals in place.
Whelan will cost a lot more than a low-level arms dealer. They're a dime a dozen.
Trading for the stupid teenage pot smoking basketball player had to be done.
After all, she is an innocent and had no SERE training like Whelan had.
Both sides understood that she was being used as a pawn in the ongoing game.
I imagine that there are many more cards in this game yet to be played.
Perhaps you should review your own twisted thought process. Whelan isn’t some innocent contractor, he’s a moron who thought attending a wedding in Russia and transporting a flash drive with “wedding pictures” on it out of the country wasn’t the risk that it was. That is two incredibly stupid moves on his part.
You think that he is a moron and cjcold thinks he is likely a high level operative. That's a big spread.
Given his court-martial, I doubt that he held a US clearance.
Exactly and they all earn playful or colorfull nicknames like The Merchant of Death.
Griner is 32 years old.
The usual suspects, plural, sharing right-wing talking points that discount "gays," women, sports, and wait for it: freedom. Shameless, and we know that already! When will the MAGA conservatives show some mental 'chops' and just be happy, or okay, or so-so about others-probably never. Well conservatives this won't help get you any political capital with the categories I mentioned. And you can forget about good-will when you traffic in disrespect and funky attitudes!
It is highly probable that American gun merchants are there already. If there is great opportunity to make money; 'dealers' of all kind find a way to bend or trick the law to their advantage or just commit to the risks involved using a intermediary!
OTOH, the court-martial could be part of a carefully crafted cover story.
Maybe, but if he were that valued, he would have had a diplomatic passport.
Hold up who are you calling a "dipshit drug user," do you know what CBD oil is used for in people?
Oops! Didn't notice that on the first read.
Brittney Griner. That was completely obvious.
It was concentrated hashish oil in a vape cartridge. We all know what that's used for.
I actually have a "thought" process, as opposed to "feelings" of blind loyalty to a political party. Give it a shot.
Please cite where I have made any mention whatsoever about Whelan.
The point I have already stated (repeatedly) is that the trade of a convicted arms dealer described by terrorism experts as one of the most dangerous men on the planet in exchange for a dipshit who absolutely did what she was accused of is grossly irresponsible and moronic.
Is hashish oil - cannabis oil or not? And, what for can cannabis oil, concentrated or not concentrated, be used?
... saving republican lives? /s
You can start with this comment- which was flagged at 1.1.1
It's not CBD. And if you seriously don't understand that difference, do some reading before you reply.
It also makes no difference what American doctors say about a drug. That does not mean they're legal in other countries.
Is hashish oil - cannabis oil or not? And, when did MAGA become a defender of other nations laws and policies? And by way of that question: I shall expect MAGA to be consistent and defend Ukraine against Russian aggression in future discussions.
I'm surprised most trumpsters don't wear sandwich boards stating "the end is near".
yeah, joe should've at least gotten a white guy for a terrorist... /s
[Deleted]
I guess you didn't notice the sarc tag.
like it helped. that double-edged joke was 30K feet over his head.
The usual fair: Bitch and moan shamelessly, eh? Is there anything about this exchange for which you are grateful? At least you won't have to hear about Griner still stuck in Russia again. (This time, if she is smart she will stay home where at least she don't have to worry about CBD cartridges on her person.)
It would benefit 'ordinary' Americans to process and understand that when there is international strife occurring between 'sparring' and warring nations to vacate the 'scene' even if it costs one dearly to do so; as it is all too easy to get real or piled up charges or kidnappings in a foreign country and make an international scene. In Griner's case the money simply can't be worth what she traded away and lost her wish to be in Russia (again) to boot! Major turn-off!
Well Texan, you know that liberty and freedom y'all go on ad nauseam about means I can express some of both in my comments to say what I wish to convey and not have to check myself "in" with somebody. FANTASTIC! Use what you can of my comment(s) and throw what's left out and away.
The "Merchant of Death" for a basketball player who got arrested on Marijuana charges.
What kind of example does this set?
Any American in enemy territory can be arrested on a fake charge so they (in this case Russia) can gain the release of somebody they want back. Under Obama we traded 5 dangerous members of the Taliban for a US deserter. Not only only are these trades a bad precedent, but democrats have been terrible at playing the game.
As I recall Trump got people back without making such trades.
Who really wanted this trade?
Could it be Putin, who is in the middle of a war and needs an arms dealer?
I guess yesterday's hero who had such 'great' rapport with his Russian counterpart did not care about either Whelan or Fogel.
And that selfish 'pig' of a man could have used his clout with Putin as a former president and whatever to help with the negotiating (if called upon), but no-now that Griner is back on U.S. soil Trump is underwhelming us with his 'regal' tweets for which he got righteously 'blasted'!
Fogel was 2021- that is under Brandon's watch.
Brandon took office Jan 20,2021.
Typical leftists blaming Trump for Brandon's fuck up.
What do you want, Ronin2, President Biden to go over and 'walk' Fogel home? Griner had a better delivery platform (being a professional ball player does have its perps and Brittney's team clearly knew how to use it), visibility, letter writing campaigns, and the adage: The squeaky wheel gets the oil. Or, the squeakiest wheel gets the most oil. Applies.
Industry people helped get Brittney's case and affair get resolved in a foreign land. Where are the teachers supporting and 'piling on' for Fogel? Government can only do so much without the pressure (power) people amassed together delivers!
Therefore, your complaint is simply sour grapes. We call benefit from watching how Brittney Griner's team 'greased' the processes that led to her eventually release! We, rather we wanted to focus or not were called to pay "attention" to her plight regularly.
What is called for here is this: Lessons Learned.
Do so fast! And then go do the grinding and 'oily' work of getting Mr. Fogel out of a Russian hell-hole where he is stuck. Brittney Griner's team has provided a blueprint of how possibly can be duplicated.
Whelan was imprisoned on Trump's watch. Why couldn't the Bid Deal Maker get him out before he left office?
Same reason Whelan is still in Russia under Brandon's watch.
Unless you don't believe Brandon when he stated Putin wouldn't deal Whelan?
That was my very point and should be the end of the whole discussion.
Whelan is a disgraced ex Marine, separated from active duty after a Courts Marshal found him guilty for dereliction of duty, forgery, check kiting, identity theft, false statements on official documents and false statements to superiors.
While in Russia for a friends wedding, he accepted a flash drive to give to another friend, which he said was only wedding photos. When trying to leave the country the FSS found the flash drive and supposedly it contained much more than wedding photos.
So he is not an unblemished or cherished veteran of the USMC and he is at least as guilty as Griner for breaking Russian law.
That is why the Soviets are insistent of trading a spy for a spy in Whelan's case.
and neither Administration will go to much trouble for him.
So Russia has never planted evidence on anyone to make them look like a spy? Also, who would Whelan have been transporting information for?
We all know that the Trump administration wouldn't have traded Bout straight up for him. Because it was never even offered.
No matter how hard you want to spin this Brandon made a very, very, very bad deal.
See 10 below.
Only in the vast wasteland of a non fertile imagination that scrambles to find any implausible excuse that comes from watching too much Tucker.
... tucker suckers.
only because he probably owed them money...
why not admit what is really bothersome to conservative minds about this trade? it's quite trendy now to do so ...
Probably is not proof just opinion
So why didn't Trump get Whelan back?
Trump never even mentioned Whelan even though Whelan's family begged him to tweet about him.
Biden has publicly asked for Whelan to be returned.
Ths is not about Trump but Biden.
Biden asked? Why not demand it like Putin did for his guy.
This seed is supposed to be about the Griner swap.
The RWNJs made it about criticizing Biden for failing to get Whelan released.
I merely pointed out that Whelan was imprisoned on Trump's watch and that Trump didn't lift a fucking finger to get Whelan realesed.
Exactly. And so it is not too late for Trump to put his big 'mouth' to work to get Whelan released. Surely, his friend Putin will deliver Whelan on the 'strength' of their friendship and a few other overtures? Of course, afterwards, Donald Trump can milk the narrative for all its worth!
What are the chances that old big TWEETER will do more than lipservice about this case and Whelan's?
Your hero Trump released 5,000 dangerous members of the Taliban. Not only was that a disasterous decision, but republicans are clueless about protecting democracy.
It was Trump who surrendered to the Taliban in Afghanistan and he agreed to the terms and the timeline. Biden even extended the timeline to give us more time to get people out.
True, and any Americans the goppers falsely blame Biden for "leaving behind" in Afghanistan were the very few Afghan Americans who stayed in Afghanistan of their own damn accords and who had refused to leave when begged to do so by the evacuating American authorities. So, there goes another lying gopper gripe...
Mr. Trump "negotiated" the end of our involvement in Afghanistan while trading 5,000 imprisoned Taliban fighters for 1000 government employees held as hostages.
The equipment that was too expensive to fly away or airlift was sold to the Afghan government. High end technology was removed or destroyed.
Good point. This is exactly the same as the exchange of POWS as part of a peace agreement.
Like helicopters
there used to be funny youtube videos of the taliban failing to learn how to fly some of those helicopters, without instructors...
Deny all you want, Trumps had a plan AND conditions to withdraw civilians first, weaponry withdrawn/destroyed next and military last.
Bidens had NO plan OR conditions so he withdrew military first, some civilians next and no plan to detsroy/withdraw munitons.
Why do you suppose there are still Americans trying to get civilians out after they were left behind by Biden.
The Afghan government bought nothing they was simply left there. The Afghan government was taken over by the Taliban which one of Trump's conditions would not allow.
The The Taliban now has what you claim they "bought"
And yes it could all have been destroyed if the cost was too high to remove it.
We will. The State Department started telling all known contractors, passport holders,
green card holders and Afghan employees in APRIL.
They resent the warnings every three weeks
But no one, repeat no one, expected the complete collapse of the Afghan
government.
Trump didn't have a contingent plan for the withdrawal that he orchestrated.
State and the Army did the best they could under the circumstances.
There were 73 various aircraft left behind including seven 60 year old
State Department CH46 Sea Knight slated for deactivation. They like most of the
aircraft were rendered inoperable.
The MD 530 helicopters had the joystick ripped out, etc.
When it came to Afghan units across the country, they melted away abandoning their
posts and equipment. From 2003 to 2021 some $83 billion in equipment was sold or
donated to the Afghan governments by the Administrations of Bush Obama and Trump.
There was no payment in Trump's treaty. He gave it all away to put Afghan behind us,
confident that he would be re-elected.
Shit happens.
More or less true, they were a dependent state for 19 years.
Explain to all of us how Trump would not allow a coup or civil war even if he had been reelected?
Yes they do plus $4 billion a year through 2024 due to the treaty "negotiated" with the
UN, Afghanistan, NATO and Mr. Trump. There was no disclaimer about coups, civil war
or takeover by the Taliban. So much for the great negotiator.
Equipment was removed over a period of 4 months based on age, tech level and
convenience with the intention of leaving the rest to the Afghan government, not the
Taliban. The equipment under US scrutiny at Kabul was rendered inoperable.
The complete collapse of the Aghan military & police handed the Taliban a windfall that
was not predicted, at least not at the speed it happened, Both Administrations
envisioned the Afghan government holding on for at least a few years, hence Trump's
gift of $4Billion a year 2021 through 2024.
Didn't they tell them to be gone by Sept? Did they massive departure in July add to the rapid downfall?
Not in April.
Of course we can assume that the exodus starting in July affected the whole process.
As for the first warning that was issued by State... you be the judge.
2 things.
1. Almost everyone ignored these repeated warnings except the contractors.
2. "Stay alert in places frequented by foreigners" is rather ironic or the height of being
arrogantly obtuse, since Americans were the foreigners in Afghanistan.
In Apr 21, DoD had 16,832 workers employed by contractors in Afghanistan, 6,147 were U.S. citizens. Why didn't Biden direct the contracts to be modified so there was no paycheck after May?
The United States was not given any heads up that President Ghani was going to vacate the 'premises' of Afghanistan before it could depart. However, the old adage: "Momma didn't raise no fool!" comes to my mind.
And a Steve Miller Band lyric: "Go on take the money and run!"
NOTE : Of course, this link (above) is Russia talking and has not been verified by CB!
E\xactly, as the US fled Afghanistan is the Spring-Summer of 21, only a fool believed that the Taliban would be kept at bay.
Ask your boss?
May 06 2021
Pentagon chief says removal of all contractors from Afghanistan under way | Reuters
08/16/2021
Departure of Private Contractors Was a Turning Point in Afghanistan Military Collapse (foreignpolicy.com)
No, trying to get Afghan civilians out...
How many Afghanis should we admit?
There was never any plan for the US to remove Afghanis who did not evacuate before US forces pulled out. They chose to stay and are themselves responsible.
So, there was no issue.
Exactly, fuck em.
You asked questions about the timing, implying Biden was somehow at fault for the
timeline.
I provided links proving the State Department was advising people to leave by April 27,
2021 and not to expect any help from the US government
and that the Pentagon issued warnings to contractors 10 days later.
I have no issues with those facts.
Just curious: What administration was in-charge of Afghanistan after its president 'threw up his own white flag and surrendered/flew away in a 'big old jet airliner'? Do you know, Drinker? Was the surrender the start to a slow or rapid descent into chaos?
We honored what we said we would do...
Except reinvading, nothing to do about it.
They are Afghanis. Can you imagine the uproar it Biden brought them to the US?
The same rightwingers bitching Biden did not get them out, would bitch if he had...
Exactly, like we did to North Koreans, many Vietnamese and Somalians, probably many others.
Trump turned his back on the Kurds after they helped wipe out ISIS.
Spin how you want, there were billions of dollars of munitions left for the Taiban to take charge of.
If you think those and their families who did not make it out were not threatended by the Taliban, you are naive.
The Taliban rolled across the country as soons they Biden announced a pull out date with no conditions or consequences.
Destroying munitions was very much in Trumps conditions.
Explain to all of us how Trump would not allow a coup or civil war even if he had been reelected?
Read what Trump said and you will have the answer.
The complete collapse of the Aghan military & police handed the Taliban a windfall that
was not predicted, at least not at the speed it happened.
Why not, was intel faulty, did the Admin take heed from the intel? This happened under Biden's watch.
Blame and spin is the Admin stance when things go poorly.
Ashraf was no fool. He saw the end coming- especially after this conversation with Brandon.
Seems that lip service is all Biden was looking for. Give the projection of things looking good; and that was the same as things actually being good.
North Koreans?
Mohammad Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai
Slow
Bismillah means, "In the name of Allah" and thus, the Afghan President should have trusted in the strength and power of his God coupled with the might of the American President to do what he said he would do and not have departed his beloved country.
Writing about 'lip service,' it is MAGA that is here on NT making 'karen sounds' about American wealth being depleted and traded off to no good and proper effect! But, you intend to abuse this president. . . and this NT room. . .of a notion that you care about Ghani's health and welfare while he lifts off to a land 'flowing with milk and honey' with American cash/capital explicitly meant for the Afghan people to defend themselves?!!
That's fraudulent!
Ronin2, yours is nothing more than partisan butchering of this topic. Moreover, with this rendering, you have handicapped your counter-narrative and everybody can see it for what is it is: Bogus and festering rantings from a yet sore election loser's camp.
An unknown number of North Koreans who would have defected if not for the Armistice
and the DMZ in addition to the 84,000 plus South Koreans who were abducted by the
North during the fighting prior to 1953.
You have an unique perspective on history.
You mean the self-imposed Leader in Exile?
You still float the canard that he is worth complaining about an American President over here and now?!
... almost as unique as your perspective on the oath to defend the constitution and patriotism.
Nah, just realistic about the "Fuck'em" remark.
Administrations pick winners and losers all the time.
Columbia, Central America, Iraq, the list goes on and on.
Afghanistan is just the latest example.
So you think that Joe picked Afghanistan to be a loser.
Twist away...
Afghanistan is the loser that Trump picked.
Trump ordered a large scale troop withdrawal from Afghanistan and Somalia on Nov 11, 2020 when it was clear that he lost the election. He wanted an immediate evacuation.
You know this, the Pentagon knew this and Milley & Kellog protested. Biden gave the Pentagon a bit of wiggle room but a treaty had been negotiated with the Taliban, NATO and Afghanistan, endorsed by the UN Security Council. The die had been cast. Imagine if Biden tried to tear up that treaty and kept us in Afghanistan. /s
We are still paying Afghanistan $4 Billion a year through 2024 with no restrictions or oversight.
Clearly the Taliban are the winners that Trump picked.
For the people of Afghanistan that are still there, willingly or not, it's just another day ending in "y".
So yeah, the people who ignored that February 2020 treaty, handing the country of
Afghanistan to the Taliban, ( with no input from the actual elected government of
Afghanistan ), for almost 18 months despite all of the warnings?
Fuck'em.
Twist away?
Biden just endorsed it.
The UN, Trump and NATO endorsed it.
Was there a vote in Congress? I cannot find one.
Biden chose between withdrawal and escalation.
As far as I am concerned the Taliban broke the last several conditions of the Treaty
and we (Biden) would be within our "rights" to renege on the $4Billion annual payments.
Past Presidents have had few issues breaking treaties with other countries.
If you point is that Trump supported a bad Doha deal, you'll get no argument from me.
I agree. The Taliban gave Biden a new options:
His plan was for May and since he didn't win.....................................
The munitions were left in the hands of Afghan's 195,000 troops.
They had to be naive to stay. Taliban began violating the Doha Treaty in March of 2020 and never slowed down.
Read the Doha Treaty which was signed by the US & Taliban under the previous Administration and endorsed by the UN & Nato. There were conditions & consequences. The pull out dates were set by Mr Trump and extended by Mr Biden.
If Mr Trump was donating all of that military hardware to the existing government of Afghanistan why would he order it destroyed?
I welcome any link to prove your attempt to make this point.
It was still an international treaty endorsed by the UN and every member of NATO
in February of 2020. Biden extended the May deadline to September 01...
As the standing Army of Afghanistan's 195,000 troops melted away in the face of only
40,000 to 50,000 Taliban we were forced to reinvade, escalate or honor the treaty.
You are one smart fuck. Yum. Not just this sentence, just so damn knowledgeable in general. Yum.
I 'do' agree. I have observed that Split Personality is a disciplined writer.
And a very good guy.
What about didn't get elected and had no power to execute don't you understand?
And? Still, he didn't have the power to see it through. He never got the chance. Your question was "why didn't he?"
He couldn't.
Certainly
Wow, meaningless comparisons can't help us be better informed or do better. So why bother with making them up? Did you really ask: Who really wanted this trade? I will take for granted this is indicative of MAGA not wanting this trade and in the offing a star basketball player should get broken down and lost in the Russia system (and 'backwater') because afterall who is she a star for anyway? Wow. Thank MAGA for always failing to step up in an instance of crisis and for those moments of success!
UMMC Yekaterinburg
So what about Marc Fogel?
I guess a nobody basketball player is more important than a U.S. Marine or a teacher.
On what basis do you say that Griner is a "nobody" basketball player? In the sports world she is very well known.
On the basis that the majority of people didn't know who the fuck she was until she was arrested.
I have never watched a basketball game nor am I an American and yet I have heard of her well before Russia decide to play games, but hey, go ahead and put her on the same gay crazy lady shelf as Rapino. Maybe a lesson or two from Whelan's brother would serve you better than knee-jerk partisan responses.
“…nor am I an American…”
But she is and she is thankfully home.
The Whelan family’s response was beyond exceptional. Here’s to every effort at our disposal to reunite them as well.
The predictable partisan responses are beyond the pale…equating gaining her freedom to a free agent sports trade…
face it, that guy will be looking over both shoulders for assassins. it wouldn't surprise me if putin had him liquidated after he shakes him down. plus, I'm sure the ukranians would be happy to hand over some valuable captured russians as trading material if asked...
Well I guess I owe you a fucking cookie. Still doesn't change a damn part of what I said now does it.
There's nothing partisan about my statement. Seems you just don't like that I don't see her as you want me to.
Ony in the women's basketball is she very well known.
We would strive 'breathlessly' to get a MAGA conservative out of Russia too, Jeremy! It may not be easy, but we would try. . . hard.
ONLY? Apparently Griner is known in Russia, eh? Also, she is certainly known in D.C. because her why is in the White House smiling and standing with the President of the United States and the sports world after her successful release!
The only Americans not thrilled and elated Griner is home are a geriatric gaggle of angry Fox News watching far rightwing cranks, racists, sexists and homophobic throwbacks who in a better world would be relegated to hate sites and Klan rallies. Unfortunately we must suffer them...
Exactly. We are out of election season for house and senate and presidency, thus it is NOT national politics that is driving this toxic right-wing discussion.
Typical of Biden to try to make her a celebrity when all she has done is play womens basketball and break laws of another country.
She is an American but other than that is a nothing burger.
Look! Just stop while y'all are somewhat ahead. This is beginning to sound a lot like karen-sounds - for the defeated. And, let me make something real clear to you dennissmith it shows weakness on some conservatives part to attack a woman and by extension women, a professional, and a marriage. Vainly attempting to 'groupie' three separate and distinct cases in Russia together as one package deal is something it takes two parties to agree to do. There was no 'handshake' coming from the other side. And our 'karens' no this, because Russia gave the right-wing this talking point to 'execute' and so. . . you all are 'clasping' it for all its worth: Not very much value overall.
If 'one' keeps quiet, then 'one' won't unintentionally say something foolish, tactless, or offensive. - The Free Dictionary.com ['One' by CB.]
Typical of Biden in what way? She was arrested because she is a celebrity
(granted, probably more so in Russia than the USA) who got railroaded for a seemingly minor infraction. At least she owned up to it as a dumb mistake. It wasn't like she brought an amount into that country that she could sell for a profit worth a 9 year sentence.
Whelan's case on the other hand involved smuggling information OUT of the country
which was why Russia labeled him a spy and neither Trump or Biden had what Putin wanted in return.
According to Bill Richardson@RichardsonCenter there are always about 60 Americans held globally that he and the State Department are working on getting released. On average State brings about 50 people a year back from difficult situations. If you are assisted by the State Department without Bill Richardson, you have to reimburse the USA for expenses.
Typically State does very little which is why Governor Richardson's non profit exists.
Like most Gold Medal Olympians and FIBA World Cup Champions, the woman you describe as a nothing burger, will probably add to her multimillion dollar net worth with more endorsements and a likely book deal in the coming years.
“She is an American but other than that is a nothing burger.”
Let us all agree she is an American.
Any and all additional commentary is simply opinion…which does nothing to distract from the first point.
And that point being, as an American first…it is a good thing she is home.
And by this statement/smear it is meant Griner is not MAGA and nothing to MAGA.
Who do we write to in order to have the ability to vote up comments of this caliber 100 times?
Afrayedknot, yet another writer tapping the vein of disciplined commentary.
Your ignorance (and bias) is on full display.
Brittney Griner is the most dominant female basketball player in history.
That may mean something to somebody who follows basketball. Me, I could care less.
Again, many never heard of her until she was arrested for doing some illegal shit. Then I'm expected to have sympathy for her? Sorry. Not playing that game.
“Griner doesn't even rank…”
Who cares about her ranking???
She is an American citizen that was detained for purely political reasons. She is thankfully now home and reunited with loved ones whose torment mirrored her own.
How can some see that her release is not a good thing? But then again, who am I kidding?
Do carry on…
Really? she didn't smuggle drugs into Russia like a dumbass? She didn't become a tool for Putin because she is a dumbass? Who cares? How about all the people who will die because of arms sales so this entitled bitch could get high.
No, she broke Russian law; and admitted to it!
I am sure she wasn't using during her playing time in Russia. Just another self entitled athlete that thinks they are above the law. Thanks to Brandon that has been reaffirmed.
Hyperbole much?
How can some fail to see that trading Putin's right hand man back to him is a bad thing for the entire planet. But then again, who am I kidding. Woke idiots are rejoicing the return of their faux hero!
We are more than sure you will.
“Thanks to Brandon…”
Holy shit…the obsession you have is remarkable if only in its’ redundancy …how do even sleep at night knowing he is the duly elected President?
Which means that nobody watches her. Which means she has to play a second season in Russia for extra cash because her league doesn't sell enough tickets to stay afloat.
Seriously, less than 6k average attendance at her games last season.
“Which means that nobody watches her.”
She’ll certainly be watched now…by the folks only so willing to disparage an American being freed and returned home.
She will be facing a new kind of imprisonment…and sadly, one of her own country’s uniquely unforgiving nature.
No she won't. She'll be out of the news cycle in a few days and we'll all go back to not giving a shit about her and rolling our eyes at the WNBA and NWSL while every male athlete in America pretends not to understand why they get paid 100 times as much as smaller, slower, less skilled players.
So, Tex, who is the "duly elected President"?
3.2.9 Texan1211 replied to afrayedknot @ 3.2.8 you said:
what have you imagined now?
afrayedknot @ 3.2.8 said:
Holy shit…the obsession you have is remarkable if only in its’ redundancy …how do even sleep at night knowing he is the duly elected President?
So WTF did afrayedknot imagine?
Yeah she has only seven seasons in the WNBA so her career stats are for a short career.
Her last complete season in the WNBA was 2019 when she led the league in blocked shots for the seventh straight year. She also has the NCAA record (men's and woman's) for blocked shots. She is dominate in the paint.
Oh, I see.
You're taking the fifth like Trump(s).
I'm asking YOU about YOUR fucking comment.
3.2.9 Texan1211 replied to afrayedknot @ 3.2.8 you said:
what have you imagined now?
WTF did YOUR comment mean?
1. This isn't a trial.
2. I was just wondering why you are afraid to respond to this simple point:
3.2.9 Texan1211 replied to afrayedknot @ 3.2.8 you said:
what have you imagined now?
afrayedknot @ 3.2.8 said:
Holy shit…the obsession you have is remarkable if only in its’ redundancy …how do even sleep at night knowing he is the duly elected President?
So WTF did afrayedknot imagine?
Or, WTF did YOU imagine, Tex?
What part of the post was "made up"?
Sorry, my bad.
I forgot that you have no imagination.
She is an American citizen that was detained for purely political reasons.
Bullshit, she was arrested, tried and convicted for breaking the law of another country.
Your confidence is misplaced
Why, is your keyboard heavy machinery?
And so you call for (another case of) useless comparison to Whelan and Fogel cases? These men are household names in your 'circle'? Can you just get real for a change? I will tell you this, until this all began I had not known any of these people were alive, but that does not reflect badly on them in any way. It's just one of those things.
BTW, I could be wrong, but I expect Russia's President Putin and his administration knows the identity and whereabouts of every American and Westerner in its territorials down to the low-wage American dishwasher or homeless person in country, no?
What exactly is the issue you are dragging us through, Jack? After all, you seem to express justification for why Griner was in Russia (for the paydays) and you know that makes good capitalist sense, no?
So. . . you don't want her back home just because she is a U.S. citizen arrested under questionable circumstances, yes?
Wave this around NT much?
Noted ... I'll address my future comments to those who have the wit of a cobaltblue.
One cobaltblue is 10,000 of you.
"So there’s a big difference between equality and equity. Equality suggests, “oh everyone should get the same amount.” The problem with that, not everybody’s starting out from the same place. So if we’re all getting the same amount, but you started out back there and I started out over here, we could get the same amount, but you’re still going to be that far back behind me. It’s about giving people the resources and the support they need, so that everyone can be on equal footing, and then compete on equal footing. Equitable treatment means we all end up in the same place."
VP Harris
Not today, I'm far to busy reading my diary ... it's chockful of sensational stuff. (apol. to O.W.)
Kamala and I attended the same H.S. Odd how non sequiturs follow each other around. /S
You mean reality-reality, or Texan-reality? Vastly different realities.
I'm waking you up with a massage tomorrow morning.
Yay ... the pictures of your hands have become a heavy load all stuck together in a thick ejaculated wad of imagination and reality.
Oh hell yes.
Reality-reality: The world or the state of things as they actually exist.
Texan-reality: Solipsism. As useless as the "ueue" in "queue".
Some simply cannot help themselves
Taht eliminates many the fringe left posters.
Your "earlier" defines nothing. I would ask what you’re referring to, but I wouldn’t want give you the false impression that I care one way or another.
Have a great day!
Hmm. You talking to me about lack of reading comprehension. Let's go over this again.
Since your reading comprehension is severely lacking, then perhaps this will help clear up the matter.
Lame.
except when it comes to religion...
Cite me saying anything of the sort.
Do you just make this shit up on the fly or do you like read tea leaves or something and then pretend you've had a vision?
In very basic language, and do not try to imagine what else I must mean. This is it.
Ready?
Trading Griner for a terrorist arms dealer was incredibly stupid.
It is a question. To which you did not bother to clarify with an ANSWER! Go figure. I have read your rather common retort to reasonable questioning from those you deign to write back and I find it interesting that you would reply with so many words whether than a simple, not complex, and non-confusing: Yes or No.
Like the rest of us, you shall be asked for your personal point of view and when it is not forthcoming, it is. . . customary. . . to be drilled down on in hopes of more elaboration and explanation. I am sorry such activity offends you. And yes, since you chose to throw "shit" in my direction, I detect you feel offended!
On the real, it is you and people who write like you, who struggle to 'win' in this situation where an American has been brought home where the U.S. system can hold her, prosecute her if necessary, and/or detain and question her sufficiently prior to release. Why can't you just be satisfied and let it alone? Her 'issue' is really not a political 'football' to be managed by opinion anyway.
Well, if you strongly feel I don't answer questions. . . avoid asking. NT is free so you do not ever have to do anything that stresses you out and makes you feel uncomfortable!
Being easily offended is a form of narcissism combined with insecurity and below average intelligence. Just sayin'.
Simple yet brilliant.
And who had to 'die' or abdicate power so you could decide the matter? To what degree of presidential level insight do you bring to this matter? Or do you IMAGINE President Biden 'ruled' in his decision-making without aid of trusted advisors? Moreover, what seasoned politician would first act without considering the impact of what his/her critics would be?
Of course, you think this president has acted stupidly. This is normal for you where Joe Biden is concerned, no? The very act of his presidency is richly STUPID to MAGA-ns and so you carry around a pick axe always looking up side Biden's head for something to 'dig.'
Quite alright. I understand but I also don't care. See how great that works out?
About this "arms dealer" - I can only hope U.S. officials made it plain to him that if/when his name rises to the classification of "dangerous/extreme" and he scores as 'flashing red' he can count on being "suspended" from the game, as in denied any further old age. This is his two of three strikes, if anyone is counting!
Okay, you've confused me. And, I don't want to render my confusion as a question. So, explain please:
Feels like a double standard; It isn't something I feel, it is just facts.
Go!
Yes, and reminds me of the good old days of Nancy Reagan's timeless words: "Just say no!" (To drugs.) God rest her soul, she sure knew how to leave an impression on many hearts and minds!
Long before MAGA: There was Nancy Reagan!
Oh so now you want to vouch for the "good folks" at Justice! You mean the folks taking Donald Trump before the courts. Sadly, those officials are UNELECTED and deep-state trained and tested-you can't trust them-MAGA-don't do it!
You can't prove it! I have been fielding questions/answers/information all week long. Keep current. Take your pick. It is not now or ever in the future my duty to make you feel comfortable with my comments. Speaking of standards, I don't see you going any where near out of your way to please me. We're all adults here and thus, we can handle communications if we really put our minds to it.
Two questions. You feel stronger now. That's good. Feel good! 1. The men and women of Justice are under the influence of a good leader in President Biden, a respected leader nationally and internationally. It is odd that you detest and distrust this leader, but sadly you have chosen your team of associates in this life.
2. I don't keep 'day-watch' or 'night-watch' over my commentary on Donald Trump, I just go with the ebb and flow of 'things.' BTW, you appear to run an algorithm that flags, "Donald" + "Trump" combinations that keep you on 'task' - it's a waste of time, all the same—on account of me. You know, liberty, freedom, and such.
Ask better questions. Spend some time talking to the opposition and less time trying to 'shine' or get a 'rise' out of it and—the sky can be the limit!
So maybe you should quit doing that.
I never once said Brandon wasn't the duly elected president.
Where the fuck were you for the last 7 years?
I am treating Brandon (and his supporters) the exact same way Trump and his supporters were for the last 7 years and counting.
I will hold Brandon and his supporters responsible for every last one of his fuck ups; and he has a shit load of them to answer for.
Don't like it? Tough shit.
Now you are going to make people cry.
An obstructionist question's construction reads as such and speaks for itself. It lacks genuineness and is not entitled to a proper answer. It is its own reward!
No. Justice's activities should be the same practices across the board, but we were informed of spotty and divisive miseducation of the Trump Administration's use of the department. You can read about it online, it was newsworthy material then and now.
Don't worry 'bout Trump. He is a man who wears down quite a few good people who play his game. And as you are certainly aware I have been 'reading' Donald Trump for his bull patty since he insulted Mexicans in his role as 2015 candidate Trump. Biden is not my motivation for reading Donald-principle is.
Thousands of Liberians, Angolans, Afghans, Sierra Leoneans, and Congolese. Have you read anything at all about this?
I think he listened to his political advisors instead of his national security advisors.
Actually, no. I voted for the man. That said, he's mishandled a few situations quite terribly.
And yet. . . .this saga you often put on continues!
Was that a detour or a short-cut you took there? Your reply does not follow this comment:
Oh, so we are back to Viktor Bout again. I was following the straight-line of your diminishing the 'poor' defenseless and 'broken' lesbian basketball professional with no love coming from MAGA republicans. Go ahead, take a bow, you swerved off and I kept the course—I think I shall take a bow too!
In any case, you are unqualified to carry water for or to any dead 'internationals,' when you won't even support your own government for paltry political reasons of a lost-cause group of conservatives who could not win an election and then lied about its losing, and with the gall to try to overthrow the most powerful government known and accepted in the world. And you have the audacity to trash a woman fighting to get home after trying to make some capital-when all you are is about 'mo' and 'mo' money.
The thing speaks for itself.
Lastly, Viktor Bout was given what for his crimes against America? The maximum or a minimum sentence? Answer, please.
I never left. I don't know what conversation you were having.
Come to think of it, I still don't.
Really. Now, it's my 'turn' to be diminished Jack_TX? The black lesbian basketball professional who gets no love from MAGA and you is back home and there is nothing any of you can do about it! And, I am not affected by childish vitriolic displays of emotion. Mature emotional outbursts when justice and truth are flipped on their head— affects me! Yes, it does.
The thing speaks for itself.
Lastly, Viktor Bout was given what for his crimes against America? The maximum or a minimum sentence? Answer, please.
I want to see you play a 1 on 1 game with Griner
Oh, is that what it would take for you to actually watch her play? Interesting.
It would be significantly closer than me vs Kevin Durant. Or even me vs Steph Curry, who is my size. Or even me against Chris Paul, who is 4 inches shorter than I am. And any of those guys would beat Griner at least as badly as she'd beat me.
I thought that was your permanent state of affairs. That's what you tell everybody, anyway.
We all realize you are going to be defensive of another gay black person.
I have said for months I think that the President should lobby with the Russians for her release, but not if it meant releasing a dangerous criminal in exchange.
It's like you getting a new Mercedes. I think it's a great idea. I don't think you should pay $4million for one, because that would be stupid.
Once again, I have no idea WTF you're talking about.
But nobody but you has any idea what it's saying.
Jack_TX, I think it is good, better than good, that MAGA is stuck without a clue as to how to get out of its own way when it comes to 'situationals.' Let's see if 'gays' can do their part to keep MAGA lost and confused. Toodles!
Brittney Griner is released, you have 'rendered' some thoughts then and now (your words) and stronger minds (and activism) won out. Get over it or just continue to gripe about it. President Biden has moved on. . . likely to another set of 'distressing' decisions MAGA will undoubtedly stick out its tongues and wag.
I will defend a black lesbian and a white lesbian, and/or a polka-dotted lesbian too from haters who can't accept that this is the only deal in town doable: A take it or leave it. Of course, MAGA would leave it: What's a superbly tall woman lesbian to a bunch of hyper-heterosexuals? Some 'thing' to be exploited and that's all.
Continually fighting against your fellow citizens and being heedless is not a good look. But, since MAGA is beyond shame- go on- MAGA, turn around, stick it out, and pat MAGA fat ass for all the world to see!
Hell, I know they would beat her. They're bigger and have longer arms.
I actually don't watch sports period and had never heard of Griner until this incident. I just had to get a little dig in. I'm feeling ornery
You have everybody lost and confused, CB.
Is there any point in your thought processes where people should be responsible for their own actions?
She is responsible for her own actions, and guess what? The black lesbian professional ball player and her support team just delivered a textbook, "Lessons Learned," which MAGA can use to free Whelan and Fogel out of Russia. Will Magans talk about it or be about getting these men free of Russia?
You obviously don't think so. You think she should get out of jail free no matter what it costs the rest of us.
What does it cost you that a black, lesbian, professional basketball player is back home with her family? And how do you plan to get paid back because of it? BTW, what will it cost you to get Whelan and Fogel back home with their families? And do you intend to get your money's worth out of either of the two men? I think you are aware no one gives a damn what MAGA thinks about the exchange. Why? Because it's clear MAGA only wants what is good for conservatives and everyone else be damned.
try a prayer...
The saga continues. . . .!
[Deleted]
All things being equal/equitable, maybe! Lay your facts out for us to review, put down the big-ass 'flag' you're waving, and let us consider what you know about this!
They're out there. Review all you want.
As I thought: All passion and anemic facts to spread out before us for close examination. Got it!
Oh how cute. He thinks I'm a liberal.
NOPE. Just passionate where it hurts.
"...how a phone mixup by the U.S. government left her unable to connect with her wife on the couple's four-year wedding anniversary."
Aw jeez, tell it to Whelan.
Cause that's what's important, optics, not that we left a Marine behind, or that we released the merchant of death to sell arms to kill Americans. But Griner missed her anniversary! That is what is important here.
Ain't it? I'd rather see the laundry guys from Jbad come here.
We left no Marine behind.
Whelan is a disgraced ex Marine, separated from active duty after a Courts Marshal found him guilty for dereliction of duty, forgery, check kiting, identity theft, false statements on official documents and false statements to superiors.
While in Russia for a friends wedding (really?), he accepted a flash drive to give to another
friend, (really?) which he said was only wedding photos. When trying to leave the country the
FSS found the flash drive and supposedly it contained much, much more than wedding photos.
So he is not an unblemished veteran of the USMC and he is at least as guilty and dumb as
Griner for breaking Russian laws.
That is why the Soviets are insisting on trading a spy for a spy in Whelan's case and neither
Trump or Biden have the spy they want. The Russian's want one of their spies jailed in Germany
for murder, in exchange for Whelan and the German's won't even consider it.
It was a ''bad conduct'' discharge.
MAGA knows better. But, they are not about to let this opportunity to diminish somebody the Biden Administration is celebrating off of the 80/20 positivity train. Just accent the negative (20 percent) until the right-wing cult buys it (as the 80 percent negative). MAGA is shameless proof!
Incidentally, MAGA is doing that thing it does all the time! Conflating two or three separate issues into one and then stirring about their discontentment!
Whelan/Fogle/Others/Griner are not 'twins' or 'triplets' or 'Quadruples' each situation happened under its separate weight and construction in Russia!
Of course, MAGA understands this! Just ask and watch them separate/cut January 6, 2021 'players' from one another pulling Trump out of the stack and off to the 'side'! MAGA is not stupid, for real, they just play a game named for it!
What does celebrating off of the 80/20 positivity train mean?
Accent/celebrate the positive 80 percentile more than inverting the 20 percentile of negativity.
Thanks, that really clarified your thinking.
You're welcome.
Given the deal, the correct answer was 'none'.
To even the playing field, we should now be able to trade our own gun dealers, aka "merchants of death", to tyrants, dictators and despots in exchange for all the Americans being held in inhumane foreign prisons!
Sounds like a win win deal to me! We get our people back and they get to imprison, torture and execute the causes of so much human suffering!
Great plan. Trade American citizens for American citizens.
No, trade "Merchants Of Death" for those who never hurt others!
I am making fun of rightwing hypocrisy about gun dealers!
If a Russian gun dealer is a merchant of death so are ours.
You really typed that out and pressed "post?"
What are gun dealers who sell guns out of the trunks of cars or at unlicensed gun shows to anybody with cash without doing a background checks? Aren't they also, "Merchants Of Death"?
How many people are in American jails for illegal gun sales?
They would obviously be the first ones to trade to foreigners.
Do not ever say liberals don't understand satire ever again!
How many times have you seen either happen?
Damn few I imagine.
Exactly, prefect equivalence:
Are you really so unaware that there are hundreds, nay thousands, of Americans imprisoned for participation in illegal gun sales?
Can you imagine the suffering or the losses cause by people selling and buying illegal, unregistered, undocumented, and often untraceable guns sold without background checks?
Enlighten Yourself!
Thank you for illustrating my point. The far right is hair on fire and panties in a bunch about the US releasing a foreign gun merchant, but excuse or do nothing to help us stop the trade in illicit gun in America and other countries by American "Merchants Of Death"...
From your link:
These examples seem more about street sales to felons, riminals using a gun during the commision of a crime and illegal aliens pocessing a firearm, not gun dealers at gun shows.
Are you suggesting that we need a War on Guns like our War on Drugs?
Are you suggesting our merchants of death are somehow not as culpable for the devastation and loss which results from the sale of illicit guns both here and abroad? How Quaint! /S
You know the left are afraid of guns. Look at their reaction to a .22 caliber semi-automatic rifle.
I see you didn't answer the simple question. I don't really know how you define US merchants of death. How many US manufactured weapons do you think are in the world marketplace?
Yes, I think all those who sell illicit guns to murderers should suffer commensurate with the suffering that they cause...
There are hundreds of millions of US manufactured guns!
I think those that sell guns illegally should be prosecuted. I said few are and you haven't disputed that with any numbers.
How many outside of the USA?
Do you want a war on guns like our war on drugs?
I'm sure you think you are.
Go to a "turkey shoot". Then go to the parking lot after the event. Guys are selling Glocks, AR-15s, AK-47s, etc. out of the trunks of their cars and out of vans. I've seen that shit after every turkey shoot.
And fucking gun shows are notorious for the lack of background checks. Many sales there are made by vendors who do not have an FFL (Federal Firearms License). Many online sales don't require a background check because they advertise that they don't have an FFL.
Did the police respond quickly after you called 911?
Why would I call the police?
You were witnessing criminal behavior that might well result in gun deaths.
Half of the turkeys and half of the shooters are LEOs.
No need to call the guy standing next to you.
I didn't witness any criminal behavior. Person to person gun sales do NOT require a background check (unless the individual making a sale has an FFL). Individuals can legally buy sell and swap guns. This is how many of the sales at gun shows (and online sales) can be executed without background checks.
Facebook Moves to Ban Private Gun Sales on Its Site and Instagram
By Vindu Goel and Mike Isaac
Facebook is banning private sales of guns on its flagship social network and its Instagram photo-sharing service, a move meant to clamp down on unlicensed gun transactions.
Facebook already prohibits people from offering marijuana, pharmaceuticals and illegal drugs for sale, and the company said on Friday that it was updating its policy to include guns. The ban applies to private, person-to-person sales of guns. Licensed gun dealers and gun clubs can still maintain Facebook pages and post on Instagram.
Although Facebook was not directly involved in gun sales, it has served as a forum for gun sales to be negotiated, without people having to undergo background checks. The social network, with 1.6 billion monthly visitors, had become one of the world’s largest marketplaces for guns and was increasingly evolving into an e-commerce site where it could facilitate transactions of goods.
The ban thrusts Facebook into the center of another major societal debate. Discussions over gun control have flared anew after the mass shootings last year in San Bernardino, Calif., and a community college in Oregon, among others. In January, President Obama gave a speech promising to tighten enforcement of laws governing unlicensed gun sales . In response, some individual sellers said they would turn to sites like Facebook, which allowed them to freely advertise guns for sale.
I used to buy guns at estate sales and sell some to the cops I played poker with a decade ago. anybody with cash can get a handgun within the hour and more exotic hardware within a day.
Not into that due process thingy, jbb?
I was being sarcastic. You could not possibly understand...
As was I.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Have you forgotten how these social media sites work?
Have I told you lately what an asset you are to liberal causes? Every time you guys post your lame wrongheaded bassackwards worthless dishonest creepy insincere comments another woman, minority or LGBTQ person swears to never ever vote for the gop!
No, I can't remember you ever telling me anything.
You guys?
When have I written lame, wrongheaded, bassackwards, worthless, dishonest, creepy, insincere, comments about women, minorities or LGBTQ people?
But for guns, you'd be doing no-knock jokes.
Is that another attempt at sarcasm?
How are constitutionally protected Smiths and Rugers equal to rockets and grenades?
I don't do stand up.
You do just as well sitting, apparently.
Thread @7.1 deleted for slap fighting.
It is good that a US citizen used as a pawn is back here. She is not my favorite athlete, and I did not like her disrespect to our country, but she is still one of us, I hope she can get back in shape and continue with a great basketball career
I'd like to vote that up a few times.
Cite
Cite
That's just sad.
The wingers are pissed that Biden swapped for a Black lesbian. That illustrates their racism and homophobia.
Like Biden, I hope an arrangement to secure the release of Paul Whelan can be arranged.
Butt, unfortunately, the Russians want to swap Vadim Krasikov for Whelan.
Vadim Krasikov is in a German prison for murder.
They get pissed at any lesbian of any shade who is not on Pornhub undergoing forced felatio conversion therapy.
Sadly, Biden's Justice Dept also disagreed with the swap according to the Wash Post.
Sorry Drinker. I thought I hit reply, but obviously not. See 11 below.
From your article:
I'm curious as to why trump didn't even consider bringing Whelan home. And I suggest we wait a few months, just out of curiosity, to see if President Biden manages another exchange or two. I'm sure everyone here would rejoice if that comes to pass.
Along with Bad Brandon, exhumed squirrels and assorted Hunter caveats.
And Hillary's email. For gosh sake, Hillary's email!
Ah yes Hillary, it's only a former president we are not allowed to discuss other than with placebo platitudes.
Benghazi!
I can't explain Trump's behavior.
But you specifically pointed out an article that believe iterated that President Biden's deal was a mistake. When I wonder in response to what you obviously believe is a mistake by Biden why traitorous trump didn't even try to get Whelan home at all, then you reply a form of "no se hablar ingles."
I specifically linked a WashP article that reported that Biden's DoJ thought it was a mistake.
I've never said that it was a mistake.
Again, I'm not going to try to explain Trump.
One usually posts articles to make a point. I don't see a post from you agreeing that one is better than none. I don't post articles unless it's something I generally agree with. Why post that specific article unless you don't somewhat agree with its content?
Ok, I guess then that I was pointing out while State supported the trade, DOJ didn't.
I'm glad that I wasn't responsible for having to make this decision. I imagine that if I had to, and I was convinced that I couldn't get a better deal, I would have given the OK.
Maybe the US should offer to release all the oligarchs's yachts for Whelan so the oligarchs would pressure Putin into releasing him.
Here's another idea. When Trump becomes ensconced in prison, trade HIM for Whelan. LOL
You think Putin gives a shit about anyone's yacht?
By this point I am sure the oligarchs are all looking at each other wishing that one of them (even several of them combined) had the brains, power, and balls to remove Putin from power.
If they cannot convince Putin to end the war in Ukraine- think they are going to pester him about their yachts?
I assume the Oligarchs are Putin's friends, so the question is does he give a shit about his friends?
Let us get this little 'tidbit' out of the way:
Tweet
@peterbaker nyt
MAGA, take your fake outrage off of NT! Mr. Bolton has more integrity apparently than some of you!
Because unlike Brandon the human fuck up machine; Trump knows a bad deal when he sees one!
You don't trade the Merchant of Death for a wrongfully entrapped US citizen for spying (even if it is a former US Marine); and you sure as hell don't trade him straight up for a US citizen (black, lesbian, basketball star- that is definitely guilty of violating Russian law).
There were three US citizens Whelan, Fogel (who isn't even listed as a wrongfully detained US citizen by Brandon's administration- even though he did the exact same thing as Griner- and received a more harsh sentence), and Griner.
If Brandon had gotten all 3 in return for Bout it still would have been a bad deal; but a hell of lot better than Bout for Griner straight up.
Brandon held all of the cards; yet caved to Putin's demands.
Brandon caved to the woke morons. Sorry if some anyone with brain and ability to reason isn't rejoicing his fucked up decision.
Eureka! Your counter-narrative is bogus. "Karen-sounds" is all this is about for you! You can not be satisfied or made whole or in part by this American President.
For the record, Trump is a defeated president who fell on his own sword-which he figuratively jammed the butt into the ground and then proceeded to 'belly-flop' down upon it. That is, using a WWE turn of phrase: Donald screwed Donald.
Thus, Biden is his own man and has his own administrative cadre; MAGA is not entitled to a have a president without distinction from 'suicide' Trump and his political rag-taggers that could not avoid intersecting with the political cliff in front of them and their jobs.
As for as your pathetic insults, I invalidate them with a flick of a digital finger into a digital waste-can as mere feeling of malcontentment for which you are feckless to fix or quit.
Almost poetic justice. Generations from now will read history books on this tragic presidency like it's a Shakespearean tragedy.
Brandon the human fuck up machine is what he is. Funny how Democrats and leftists defend him no matter what. His own DOJ (heavily Democrat); Intelligence agencies; and people in the state department told him this was a bad deal. Yet he went ahead with it anyways.
But Trruuummmmppppp!!!!!! When losing an argument scream it and declare victory. Trump has nothing to do with Brandon the human fuck up machine making a bad deal.
Brandon the human fuck up machine caved to the woke far left morons that wanted their new hero home. Instead of doing his damn job! SSDD for him.
Yet you still respond, endlessly, pointlessly, inanely. Stating the same leftist talking point BS. We all get it already; you support the human fuck up machine no matter what.
Excuse you, MAGA vitriol machine, but 'nobody' is defending Biden no matter what because this president is not doing stupid policy no matter what MAGA thinks about him and the issues. Funny MAGA only cares about what government agencies SAY and WRITE when it agrees with their counternarrative. My suggestion to MAGA: drop the bull patty political posturings—the majority of voters are not going to accept chaos as the normal anymore. The past is gone, and its grave is marked with a massive tombstone.
Still the same BS talking points.
Still can't refute that Brandon's DOJ, Intelligence agencies, and state department all told him not to do the deal.
My suggestion to leftist is come back to reality. Not everything has to do with MAGA. No matter what Brandon the human fuck up machine says.
Heed the words of your "savior" Barack Obama.
Take your own advice for 2024.
Cute, but no Christmas turkey. At the end of the day, all age-related and life-experienced related differences aside: the two men adore one another and have consistently and repeatedly protected the force of the democratic party and projected democracy forward.
MAGA's got nothing but its scores of put downs and a cache of interesting but 'old news' to read by the fire while you drink eggnog this Christmas.
They've both have outraged me, but then I'm not MAGA.
Whelan's brother, David, is "so glad" Griner is home. MAGA, the usual suspects , are so sad Griner is home.
It's pathetic. Makes me even more ashamed of them. Well, I guess Grifter Jr's Russian money is keeping him in coke. There's that.
Coke -Jr.? Jr. -Coke? Hmmm. Intriguing development in this discussion.
Who you gonna believe? His denials or your lyin' eyes?
Well, he looks A-M-A-Z-I-N-G. That face! Here what I want to know:
Can 'That Guy' take an ugly picture?
No shit. I'm talking Hunter. That dude is good looking af.
Okay, I can think of at least one NT member who is going to groan over me stating this but, oh well. Here goes. Both these men have that tall, dark, handsome 'thing' going for them. It's just possibly the difference is when/what comes out of one or the other's mouth, his actions, and his attitudes that can be a turn off!
That said, pssst, I see your point!
Grifter jr. makes me puke in my mouth a little. Ignorance and hateful behavior is such a turn-off. Doesn't matter what they look like.
HA!
I bet now that Biden has proven how incompetent he is, El Chapo is just waiting for a gender fluid minority athlete to fuck up in Mexico.