Jack Smith's Lose-Lose Situation
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
S pecial Counsel Jack Smith faces a "no-win situation" if he chooses to react to the latest ruling from the judge overseeing Donald Trump 's classified records trial, legal experts have said.
Judge Aileen Cannon , who was nominated to the bench by Trump, has faced frequent criticism for her decisions in the federal criminal case which appear to have favored the former president.
The latest decision from Cannon has renewed calls for Smith to try to have her removed from the case. It revolves around Trump and his lawyers' disputed arguments put forward in a motion to dismiss stating that the Presidential Records Act allowed the Republican undisputed authority to categorize classified materials as his personal property. This would mean Trump did not break any law by removing them from the White House in January 2021.
On Monday, Cannon asked lawyers for Trump and Smith's office team to submit "competing scenarios" laying out possible jury instructions regarding the interpretation of the Presidential Records Act, including whether a president "has sole authority" to categorize records as "personal or presidential" during their time in office.
The move was criticized as potentially asking a jury to lean towards Trump's views of the Presidential Records Act, or allow Cannon to dismiss the case entirely, without giving Smith a chance to appeal against any decision to the US Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit.
Neama Rahmani, former federal prosecutor and president of West Coast Trial Lawyers, told Newsweek that Smith could try and have Cannon removed over the jury instructions request, or refuse to comply, both of which could be detrimental to the federal prosecutor in his attempt to convict Trump.
"Judge Cannon's bizarre ruling is yet another instance that clearly benefits Trump and demonstrates that she is in over her head as a judge. The issue is a question of law that she should decide, not a question of fact for the jury," Rahmani said .
"Smith is in a no-win situation because an appeal or writ will delay the trial even further, but he can't allow Cannon to abdicate her responsibility and make the possibility of jury nullification even more real."
A similar claim was made by former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Harry Litman in a scathing opinion piece for the Los Angeles Times, in which he suggested Cannon has "truly crossed the line into running interference" for the former president with her latest decision.
"Cannon may have hit upon a strategy that gives Trump the delay he wants and then dismisses the case once a jury has been sworn in—while never exposing herself to being reined in or forced off the case by the 11th Circuit," Litman wrote.
"All of which leaves Smith facing a tricky choice. He can adhere to the letter of the judge's order and acquiesce in potentially laying the groundwork to dismiss the case at an irremediable point. Or he can refuse to go along, risk Cannon's ire and try to position the prosecution to appeal if she actually does something reviewable," Litman added.
"It's not an easy call—especially when the umpire seems to be playing for the other team."
A spokesperson for Smith's office declined to comment.
Elsewhere, Joyce Vance, a frequent Trump critic and former Barack Obama -appointed attorney, called on Smith to file a motion to recuse Cannon following her jury instructions request, despite the delay it will cause for the trial.
The timing of Trump's federal classified documents case, expected to be pushed back beyond its current scheduled date of May 20, has additional significance.
If Trump, the presumptive 2024 Republican nominee, beats President Joe Biden in November's election before the classified documents trial has taken place, Trump could then order the Department of Justice to drop the federal case into him once he enters office.
"Filing a motion for recusal now would almost certainly mean the case can't be tried ahead of the election because of the time it would take a new judge to get up to speed and the pendency of issues regarding the use of classified information," Vance wrote in her Civil Discourse blog.
"But it would be better to run the risk of delay than it would be to give Cannon the opportunity to derail the prosecution in a way that would give her the final say over the fate of the case."
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We have now come full circle or as some would call it "karma."
4 cases that blew up in the faces of evil prosecutors.
You support the most unfit presidential candidate in the history of this country.[✘]
You mean Brandon the Human Fuck Up Machine? Sorry he is the sole problem of Democrats, leftists, and the TDS driven that voted him into office.
He can't win on the issues; so Democrats are using lawfare to achieve the goal. Both on Trump and by trying to keep those independents that might draw votes from Brandon from being on the ballot.
Your shtick is tired and overused.
Word cloud:
BRANDON. LEFTISTS. TDS. HUMAN FUCK UP MACHINE.
BRANDON. LEFTISTS. TDS. HUMAN FUCK UP MACHINE.
BRANDON. LEFTISTS. TDS. HUMAN FUCK UP MACHINE.
BRANDON. LEFTISTS. TDS. HUMAN FUCK UP MACHINE.
BRANDON. LEFTISTS. TDS. HUMAN FUCK UP MACHINE.
It's the right wing mantra, CB. They hope that if they chant it non-stop, they might actually start believing it, because they know it's all B.S. Certainly, no one else believes it..
I'm pretty sure Vic doesn't support Traitor Joe.
But you believe the constant use of "some MAGAs" is perfectly OK.
Odd logic.
I doubt John has trump devotion syndrome.
While I know that the member is NOT the topic of the article, it is more of an obsession than devotion. And all members who pay attention know it.
Look "bugsy" when MAGAs practice compromise and stop excluding people using your worldview and instead include others or at least stop trying to demonize, 'monsterize,' name-call, and stop all the misinformation flying on this site from MAGAs keyboards I will evaluate a more pleasant use of the term. As for the phrase: "Some MAGAs," it stays because MAGAs are part of a MAGA "movement." MAGAs named the movement—yourselves. Not me.
6 MAGAs in one post. I am not sure but that may be a record.
Don't let context bother your focus on inconsequentials there, RDtC.
I suggest you pull your 'dragnet' up out of the deep.
Where is the traditional conservative value of the rule of law?
Delaying a trial in the hope that Trump is elected and can then squash the indictments and never stand trial is not operating under the rule of law ... it is subverting the rule of law.
If Biden is not prosecuted for intentionally taking classified documents home as a Senator and Vice President, then Trump shouldn't stand trial either. The authorities knew that Trump's documents were under lock and key and were negotiating with Trump for their return. Biden's records were not secured, and he even shared them with his ghost writer, who later destroyed evidence.
My question is whether or not the American public is generally just too fucking stupid to realize what's going on, what games are being played.
It's MAGAs wanting what MAGAs want: A takeover of the whole of government: State and Federal. Trump has proven to be their point of the spirit. So what if he gets dirtied up for all the political dirty/filthy work he does and plans to do?! More importantly, MAGAs have Trump right where they want him: He needs them to get in the White House-they need him to "own the libs" and the. . .Secularists detested by Christian Nationalists.
Oh, they know. What the Republicans are doing this time around is to make sure the electorate is as fully informed of the truth about the corruptness of Biden, his administration, and especially his family.
You have no proof of what you are stating, so that's misinformation. It's wrong to put out partisan misinformation.
[deleted][✘]
It is amazing that this basic difference never gets past the partisan wall.
Biden did not obstruct the return of the documents; he cooperated. Thus his only violation was the violation of the Presidential Records Act (PRA) and the PRA is not criminal.
Trump also violated the PRA but then he engaged in the criminal practice of trying to obstruct the safe return of the documents.
Obstruction vs. cooperation.
If Trump had not obstructed and would have simply turned over the documents, he would have simply been in violation of the PRA. This would have never even hit the news cycle.
Trump obstructed, Biden cooperated. That is the legal difference and this is all Trump's own doing.
It is clear that some of them are smart enough but do not care. Partisan politics is more important than integrity, truth, the rule of law, morality, ...
My question wasn't looking for deflection or "whatabout" answer, thank you.
I consider it unfortunate that "partisan politics" is the "be all" "way of life" for so many Americans. My God, what a way to live.
Clean up time. My apologies, for not getting the words right the first time. 1.2.3. should open this way:
Trump is allowed due process just like Hunter and Brandon are.
The more Democrats/leftists bitch about it the more it shows they are not fit to hold power at any level of government.
It never ceases to amaze me how leftists don't know the law.
Brandon had classified documents not just from when he was VP; but also as a Senator. He shared classified information with his ghost writer who destroyed evidence knowing full damn well he was in the wrong.
Neither are being charged.
Brandon didn't have the ability either as a Senator or VP to declassify anything. So he intentionally took and held classified information in insecure locations. Chain of custody was broken.
Brandon allowing people that didn't have proper security clearance to look for classified information at his residences is also illegal. Seems the DOJ/FBI couldn't be bothered to do their damn jobs. Wonder why.
Hur didn't exonerate Brandon; he didn't prosecute because he knew he couldn't win in leftist bastions of stupidity like DC.
Our two tier justice system is working at full steam.
Once the law stops applying to everyone guess who will be screaming the loudest?
Trump has due process in civil court. That he and you want a criminal trial for civil violations and proceeding is not anything the court can or ought to oblige. So go on and cry foul. Afterwards, get up, dust your "MAGA" hats off and move on. Oh and just for giggles, Trump just might hit a lucky surprise hole in one. A golfing reference you know. (Pssst, the two big lotteries are Powerball and Mega Millions throughout this week. Check it out. Trump has about as much a chance of winning it as the rest of us. Put down some money on a gamble!)
Remarkable. This speaks volumes about those of us who imagine themselves to be independent - but are not! MAGA (5).
Many normal everyday Americans have become immune to the political games politicians play, it has become accepted and expected.
Yea yea yea. change the station.
What's really amazing is that right winger don't know the president's name. Sad for them. Very sad.
Due process has been in effect. Trump has been delaying due process.
If Trump is successful and delays his criminal trials and is then elected, he will kill the trials. Is that due process?
I am not surprised at all that you ignore the law and simply spin this for Trump.
Trump obstructed, Biden cooperated. That is the legal difference in grand summary.
Obviously you do not understand the PRA nor do you understand the classified documents indictment, the facts of the case, and the laws involved.
Partisan bullshit is not an argument.
I guess being a politician is little more than a paying job, and the politicians are just in it to preserve their positions (and make money) more than representing the wishes of their electorates.
I think if the ignoramuses keep calling Biden "Brandon" we should start calling Trump "Gump" or "Plump".
I think it would be better to continue to operate as rational adults.
Childish name-mangling, etc. illustrates emotional thinking and the lack of a cogent argument.
Sometime I say "gol-darn it" when I really want to say "goddamit" , I use "Let's Go Brandon" the same way because I really want to say what it is the substitute for.
For months now. . .I have been feeling that I have been watching theater. A theater of the absurd, if you will.
In my mind's eye, I see MAGA men and women sitting in think-tank meetings, 'quiet rooms' and in saunas whispering to each other about plans to take over all of civil society, from McConnell and his calculated speech to the senate assembly immediately after the GOP senate membership did not vote to impeach Trump whom "Mitch" stated was guilty as sin and 'somebody' - if only somebody- in the DOJ or state systems would indict him.
It was a speech prepared and delivered 'perfectly ahead of time (in a quiet space between collaborators).
I see Trump lawyers making 'rounds' like lobbyists do to state and federal leaders offices whispering "plausible" scenarios where, with acceptance from our 'red-state' leaders, Trump and his supporters could slap, punch, and bang truth around until it becomes malleable and able to take a new 'obedient' form.
I see Trump surrogates going to people with 'black faces' and whispering to them that for power, influence, and fame—they can achieve it-it's only a campaign away if only they become grifters who ignore their own people . . . and become friends of colorblind politics and policies which (hint-hint and wink/nod) 'everybody' knows is a ploy to keep black faces grounded in the dirt like a flat anchor stuck on the bottom of the sea while whiteness regains it footing for another 'thousand' years above the black masses. (Shame on you Senator Tim Scott for not living up to the standard set by Senator Edward Brooke (1967-1979).
I see succulently warm hot tubs around towns where the GOP bunch can bump into and sit down at swanky lounge stations with supreme court justices where they can stealthily and quietly be 'coached' in subtle ways to bring cases which can be laid before them, or even "solicited" through dissent by wealthy, influential, powerful men and women who have open access to places in the country. . .the world where some (many) can't go or be found.
I see men and women whispering and talking about exclusions and inclusions of peoples who should not be allowed to 'get away' from their captured states of existence. . . and what tactics will be deployed to keep them 'kept' or returned to a captive state.
It's a takeover. It's been arranged. It's execution of a plan. Its "Project 2025." It's MAGAs following a strategy to repossess what has been lost.
No, they are not listening to us. Not now. They are closing on the 'game' and Trump is paramount to its conclusion.
There is no rule of law in MAGA "country." There is only conservative leadership for all! And they will tell you, us that they should have never conceded anything to 'dirty' compromise in the first place.
I see a demagogue phenomenon. There are enough gullible GOP voters to provide a solid base for Trump. That base gave him momentum via polls which then carried forth into the primaries. His supporters now are his gullible MAGA sycophants plus millions of GOP members who are just going with the flow.
Obviously supporting Trump to be president of the USA is irrational, irresponsible, and unpatriotic. He is a scoundrel, a traitor, etc. and if he is unsuccessful delaying his trials, likely to be a convicted felon. He cares more about himself than the nation as evidenced by him being the only PotUS in US history to attempt to steal a US presidential election through fraud, coercion, lying, and incitement.
On top of that, he will be financially compromised and thus a target for those who seek to buy influence.
He is truly the worst candidate for PotUS in our nation's history yet the GOP had doubled and tripled down on him. It is a cult at this point.
It is genuinely surreal.
I see no value in me expressing something like "Fuck Trump" or using mangling like "Frump", "Trump-turd", "Orange-man","Diaper Don", ...
I prefer to make arguments without engaging in emotional labeling. My comments against Trump are based on logic and evidence. I do not even get an urge to make emotional comments since to me the reality of Trump is more than bad enough.
My views on Trump are grounded in facts and logic. I have no use for emotive language.
I think the site would be better served if more people would focus on arguments rather than all the emotional nonsense (and, worse, the blatant dishonesty) that we routinely see.
Well, I agree. But I have always detested liars, because it goes against everything I stand for (and have suffered for) in a long life. Therefore, when Trump appears on my television reminding me of his ease at lying and MAGAs come here trying for all they are worth to gaslight the place. . . at some points I simply can contain my outbursts of indignation.
I'm asking the same question.
Then stop cheering when Trump is able to work the system via complicit agents to delay his due process.
Partially incorrect. Assuming we are talking about VP Biden, he had limited classification powers as defined by the POTUS in 2009.
That 2009 EO also applied to the Secretary of State.
It also applied to Mike Pence who was not charged because he to cooperated and had "outside lawyers" start searching for classified material in the boxes of "memorabilia" he took home at the end of his term. Having found them, he too let the FBI search his home and offices after breaking that "chain of custody".
Biden & Pence have been treated equally because they cooperated and willingly relinquished anything questionable, even Biden's VP diaries which were clearly legally his to retain.
That pretty much trashes your 2 tiered complaint
Donald J Trump will always be the loudest.
So, Trump should be facing "only" an obstruction charge"?
That's what the media is telling you, but no real proof of that.
Only the other side of the coin, you believe media reports and the Biden DOJ that Trump "obstructed" the return of the documents.
Also, what authorization did Biden have, as a Senator and Vic President, where these documents should never had left a SCIF, to be in his possession?
Which one of those two people cooperated with investigators when asked?
Hint: It wasn't trump.
He did to an extent. He gave them what he thought they needed. And when they said more, he gave them what he was willing to give. They didn't get specific until they raided the property
How do you know Biden REALLY cooperated?
By keeping these documents for decades, he showed the exact opposite of cooperate.....you know....obstruct.
Obstruction is an active word. There was no obstruction by Biden or Pence.
Trump, Nauta, Babb and others played games with the locks, moved boxes from room to room, eventually moved boxes to an airplane that was taking Trump to NJ and Bedminster and tried to deliberately erase any incriminating security tapes. THAT is obstruction.
Nauta has testified that the dozen or so boxes he loaded onto the plane to Bedminster never came back. That is further obstruction.
Sure. Government agencies 'love' being scandalous and what greater scandal can one evoke than to conduct a first: A raid on a former president's private dwelling and search it from top to bottom and key locations on the premises.
Federal agencies 'live' for that kind of thing. Which is why they waited nearly a year long and multiple calls and mailings to retrieve documents from Donald.
Spreading misinformation repeatedly here is wrong.
it would be pretty funny if any missing documents somehow suddenly materialized and somebody suffered a few perry mason type moments...
The folder with all of the raw documents from the earliest Obama and Trump Russian interference data
was in Mark Meadows possession during the final days of the Trump term.
Now missing.
how very convenient.
Well, that is all some have to offer.
I have a lot of good ones but I know YOU don't want to stoop so low, couldn't and wouldn't, stoop so low, be so childish and immature. I limit mine to mostly former 'president' lately.
although admittedly I was probably the one who coined trumpturd, I don't like to be so immature any longer.
That is absolutely unreal.
'what he thought they needed'
'gave them what he was willing to give'
THEY WEREN'T HIS TO KEEP, ANY OF THEM
The MAGAs' worldview is this: Take what you want, even if hands are closed!
In effect, that is what he is facing. His willful retention charge was a result of him not cooperating.
Trump is not being charged with possession of classified documents. He is charged with obstruction. Did you not read the indictment??
I summarized the indictment last year:
If Trump had cooperated and returned the documents, he would not only not be facing this indictment, but it is very likely that this would have never made the news cycle. Trump brought all of this on himself.
Show me the evidence that suggests Biden did not cooperate in the return of the documents as universally reported.
Do you ignore everything bad that Trump does? Just pretend it did not happen? Should he be found guilty will you claim that the witnesses were all lying, that the evidence was planted, or maybe try to play legally absurd games such as what Trump does when he claims that the PRA allows him to have the documents (it states the opposite)?
He likely had no authority. As I noted, he violated the PRA. Violating the PRA carries no criminal charges. And, importantly, he cooperated in the return of the documents.
Why are you spinning what happened? It is not as though members of this site are stupid and will simply accept whitewashed excuses for Trump. So what is the point? What are you trying to accomplish?
A former PotUS is not allowed to keep ANY documents that have anything to do with his function as PotUS. Classified or not. The only documents allowed are strictly private such as a letter to a family member about non-PotUS matters.
This is what the PRA specifies.
Trump played games with NARA starting May 6, 2021. The search took place on Aug. 9, 2022. 15 months! They treated Trump with all sorts of deference and patience. His refusal to cooperate is why he is in trouble.
Here is a timeline:
Obstruction means taking actions to hinder the government from acting to secure known documents.
The government did not know Biden had the documents. Once Biden's staff informed them, Biden cooperated fully and voluntarily looked for more violations.
Pence did the same thing.
Trump, however, obstructed. He did not cooperate and return the documents when NARA became aware. Later on he even tried to hide documents. That is obstruction.
Biden (and Pence) cooperated. Trump obstructed (@1.2.51).
At the end of the long-running narrative:
No charges, mean "No charges."
So "bugsy" should let this 'item' in his bulky file of gripes and grievances about liberals go out to die. The jig is up. Trump should have imitated Biden as the narrative proves Biden knew how to get clear of a MAGA official , but Trump amateurish played the fool and landed in the hands of a no-bull Special Counsel who wants Trump to have a day in court for not giving the National Archives its belongings.
I would like for the MAGAs on this site to stop asking for discrimination against liberals, while seeking a type of "Affirmative Action" for themselves. . .while denying others its usage.
I believe the correct term is
a preponderance of evidence...
Quite a substantial preponderance of solid evidence.
There actually was. Biden held onto documents for decades until he was busted with them.
An important note.......Confidential and higher documents are held in SCIFs for Congress to read. They are not allowed to take these documents out of these SCIFs.
How did Biden get custody of these documents if he was not allowed to remove them?
Here is some help....
Think Scooter Libby.
Besides what the BIDEN DOJ told you, show me where he did.
"Do you ignore everything bad that Trump does? Just pretend it did not happen? "
Nope.....but it shows that you, et al, ignore everything that Biden does, ie, see the answer to your first question.
"And, importantly, he cooperated in the return of the documents. "
Holding documents for decades does not constitute "cooperation".
Good for you
Putting these documents in several places across the country, all of them not secured properly, constitutes obstruction. Even more importantly, stealing them from a SCIF is even more of a serious violation.
"Once Biden's staff informed them, Biden cooperated fully and voluntarily looked for more violations."
Because that is what the BIDEN DOJ and the left wing media told you.
Shaking your metaphorical head and chanting "I cannot hear you" is no argument.
I have acknowledged what Biden has done from day one. So this claim is simply bullshit in lieu of an actual argument.
I have stated what Trump did beyond what both Biden and Pence did. It is this extra bit by Trump that landed him in trouble. And that extra bit is obstruction .
You are redefining words. That is no argument, it is simply bullshit.
When the authorities became aware that Biden possessed these documents (and it was Biden's staff who made them aware) did Biden cooperate or did he obstruct. (Answer: he fully and immediately cooperated and proactively started looking for more personal violations of the the PRA).
When the authorities became aware that Trump possessed these documents (Trump did not volunteer this information) did Trump cooperate or did he obstruct. (Answer: he played games for 15 months and and towards the end engaged in blatant obstruction).
see @1.2.51
Conspiracy theorists are usually wrong (and look ridiculous).
Then I suggest an avoidance of conspiracy theories.....
Correct. I suggest to others to not do it.
"I have stated what Trump did beyond what both Biden and Pence did. "
Your argument shows you believe it is perfectly OK to illegally hold onto classified documents in insecure locations for decades, but want to hammer the guy that had documents is a locked location for a year or two. Biden did a far more serious infraction by STEALING CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
"When the authorities became aware that Biden possessed these documents (and it was Biden's staff who made them aware) did Biden cooperate or did he obstruct. (Answer: he fully and immediately cooperated and proactively started looking for more personal violations of the the PRA)."
This is what the BIDEN DOJ and left wing media told you.
"(Answer: he played games for 15 months and and towards the end engaged in blatant obstruction)"
Bad, yes....but nowhere near as bad a ILLEGALLY holding documents for decades.
Your argument is moot.
You yet again fail to read. I have stated many times that having the documents violates the PRA. So, just so this sinks in, that means that Biden, Pence, and Trump were each wrong.
A novel new meaning for the verb "steal". How can you possibly view Biden "stealing" classified documents yet NOT view Trump as "stealing" classified documents? What about Pence, did he "steal"?
Admitting, yet again, that you believe outrageous conspiracy theories. Stating a conspiracy theory is not an argument.
Apparently you have no understanding whatsoever of the law here. You presume that duration matters. It does not. What matters is possession and the manner in which possession is relinquished to the authorities.
You invent a new meaning for the verb "steal" and invent your own laws. On top of that, you continue to ignore Trump's obstruction and instead attempt to argue (pathetically) that Biden stole classified documents but somehow Trump did not.
And I mever disagreed with you. No need to keep arguing that.
Big picture in a few words...
Trump allowed to take documents
Biden not allowed to take documents.
"Admitting, yet again, that you believe outrageous conspiracy theories"
OK, so who else besides the Biden DOJ and left wing media has told you that Biden cooperated?
"A novel new meaning for the verb "steal". How can you possibly view Biden "stealing" classified documents yet NOT view Trump as "stealing" classified documents?"
Again....in a few words
Trump allowed to retain documents
Biden not allowed to retain documents.
Do better
How was Trump allowed to take documents? Apparently you do NOT understand the PRA.
Make an argument instead of engaging in pitiful quips and entirely unsubstantiated claims.
Seek answers from DOJ Special Counsel Hur, a fellow republican Trumpist. Or better yet . . . read a summary of the 'report.' Answers are there! Trumpists devaluing other Trumpists work. That's a big wow!
The President of the United States has declassification powers. He is allowed to take what he believes is personal papers, among other items. He is allowed to declassify whatever he wants. Did he go about it incorrectly? Probably. Some of what he took probably should not have been taken because they are not classified as personal. As you said, he probably violated the PRA, but that is not a crime.Trump kept his documents in ONE locked location, with two locks applied. Not a recommended way to secure documents, but he did what the FBI instructed him to do.
On the flip side.....Biden never had declassification powers. Every classified document he took remains classified. He took these documents from SCIFs, hence, he stole them. Say Libby Scooter's name. No other spin can counter it.
In addition, all of his documents that he stole were stored in insecure locations, including his freaking garage.
Obviously, you are not fully aware of the law or you would not be defending Biden so heavily and acknowledge that he is a classified document thief.
Aside from all that, three individuals have been criticized within the past few years for the same thing. Only one is being prosecuted.
Another thing I love is that the National Archives, which is supposed to be non-partisan only noticed Trump having documents. Biden only supposedly realized he had them when his DOJ went after Trump.
Exactly....It took 40+ years and they never realized Biden had these documents. Supposedly, it was Biden staff that "found" them
More than likely they were afraid of the rightful backlash if someone leaked that Biden also had much more documents in his possession, so the Biden DOJ went with the story that Biden cooperated and returned the documents. Very sure that many, many people, past and present knew these documents existed and where they were, including in the garage.
Of course, his DOJ is not going to charge him with theft of classified information, as that is exactly what he did.
With Trump, they realized missing documents in only 15 months and charge him with obstruction
Total bullshit and anyone with a brain knows this.
He must exercise that while PotUS. Trump did not do so. Thus the documents he took were NOT declassified.
The PRA does not allow ANY documents to be taken unless they are strictly personal. It does not matter if they are classified or declassified. So even if Trump had declassified the documents (he did NOT) it would not matter.
What matters is the fact that he obstructed the safe return of those documents.
Yeah, bugsy he 'probably' violated the PRA. The fact is that he, Biden and Pence each violated the PRA. Not even a question, this is a fact. And, as I noted, violating the PRA is indeed NOT criminal. So merely violating the PRA would not result in criminal charges for Biden, Pence, or Trump.
Trump, however, went well beyond merely violating the PRA! He obstructed. Biden and Pence did NOT obstruct. The obstruction is what is criminal and it is the reason Trump is in trouble. Read the indictment. Read the cited laws. Understand at least the basics of what it is that you are attempting to debate.
Lacking that knowledge, you have no argument, just ridiculous claims.
Vic, do you truly not understand that the commonality of the three is that they violated the (non criminal) PRA?
Do you not understand that ONLY TRUMP violated the law by obstructing the safe return of the documents in his possession?
If Trump had cooperated and returned the documents, he would not be in trouble.
Isn't that odd?
More than likely they were afraid of the rightful backlash if someone leaked that Biden also had much more documents in his possession, so the Biden DOJ went with the story that Biden cooperated and returned the documents. Very sure that many, many people, past and present knew these documents existed and where they were, including in the garage.
Right again!
Of course, his DOJ is not going to charge him with theft of classified information, as that is exactly what he did.
If it is a crime, then it is the same for Hillary, Joe & Donald. The dems want to go after Trump on the obstruction, but that was not the original infraction. How things were handled by Biden and Trump involves sentencing after a trial, but the initial act was the same for all three.
With Trump, they realized missing documents in only 15 months and charge him with obstruction
Funny how that works. I spit on the sidewalk and its nothing, Trump does it and it's vandalism.
Total bullshit and anyone with a brain knows this.
Correct.
That comes AFTER the complaint. If the crime is taking the documents all 3 should have been treated the same.
You do not even get this fact right.
They noticed the missing documents in May, 2021. The 15 months is the time from the point they notified Trump that he must return his presidential records until the FBI acted at Mar-a-Lago. Trump delayed and obstructed for 15 months.
And, yeah, I know you are going to yet again claim that everyone is out to get poor, innocent Trump. But that ignores the fact that they treated him with deference and respect for 15 months. He refused to fully cooperate so after 15 months they acted.
All Trump had to do was return the documents and this would have not even been news, much less an indictment.
Do you not understand that the PRA is NOT criminal?? If Trump had returned the documents like Biden and Pence did, he would not be indicted.
Drop the partisan wall and figure this out. It is obvious.
You'll have to cheat to stop him now.
Thank you to all the dirty democrats for showing the people what you all are capable of.
Wow Vic, just leap out of the argument entirely and resort to emotive language.
Trump, Biden, and Pence violated the PRA. The PRA, however, does not carry criminal charges.
Trump alone did NOT cooperate. Trump alone obstructed the safe return of the documents for 15 months. This was both unnecessary and incredibly stupid. But Trump did obstruct and that is why he has been indicted.
Are you referring to your post? The one where within you state Trump was immediately investigated in a mere 15 months ? Do you have any info related to the events that took place in the attempted recovery of documents that were NEVER TRUMPS to possess after leaving office, as they were NEVER HIS, even if you believe Trump possesses magical declassification powers where he can declassify just by thinking about it, it wouldn't matter. When this clown finally goes down, even though you and yours will deny it, you will have been supporting and defending a traitorous scumbag for almost a decade. Wake up people. This is just too inticate to have been designed by somebody or something. This is Trump totally thumbing and flicking off authority as power has rotted his mind. Authority will eventually prevail, but WTF ?
We have discussed it ad nauseum.
Do you really think people are stupid?
I'm hoping James goes right after his properties on Monday. That should put him on the fast track to the White House.
Given you wrote this:
You are implying that Trump was treated unfairly. You know (or should know) that the PRA is NOT criminal. So you know (or should know) that the crime was NOT the taking of the documents.
You know (or should know) that the crime was obstruction in the safe return of said documents.
I am stating the facts and the legal aspects; you are engaging in sophistry.
So you must be the one who thinks readers are stupid.
or possibly, the big house Vic
You are citing the Presidential Records Act. How does that cover Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden?
Want to bet?
In the past I would have never guessed that someone would be rooting for a traitor to be elected PotUS. A scoundrel who is the only PotUS in our history to have tried to steal a presidential election through fraud, lying, coercion, and incitement. An irresponsible, loose-cannon who demonstrably cares more of his ego than he does of the nation.
But here we are. And when you deflect to Biden I will note that for all Biden's faults, Trump is an order of magnitude worse. Fuck party loyalty — Trump should never be given any position of political power.
Read what I am writing. You should have no need to ask this question of me if you have read what I wrote in this thread alone.
Answer the question.
Clinton had classified documents on a home server. She destroyed them.
IS THAT A CRIME?
Stop the name-calling. You are voting for a POS who destroyed the country and was corrupt!
I already did. The PRA is not criminal. It does not matter who breaks it, the mere possession of documents is not criminal.
Further, the PRA applies only to the PotUS and VP. But if Clinton were PotUS or V.P. then it would apply to her too.
Do you truly not understand this??
If so, she should have been held accountable. That does not in any way change the fact that Trump was indicted because of his criminal activity.
You came in here trying to equate Biden, Pence, and Trump via the PRA. I told you (although you should have already known this) that the PRA does not carry criminal charges. I also told you (and you should have known this too) that if Trump had simply returned the documents, he would not have been indicted.
But Trump obstructed and that is why he was indicted.
You cannot argue that so you deflect to Clinton. Hillary Clinton's case does not change anything other than you deflecting to yet another feeble argument that Trump is being treated unfairly. Irrelevant, even if true.
Deal with the reality that the guy you are voting for to be the next president almost certainly willingly engaged in criminal activity. Numerous times. On top of violating the CotUS and attempting to disenfranchise voters while PotUS.
What name calling? The word 'traitor' is not name-calling, it is a descriptive term reflecting Trump's actions.
Distinguish between serious, descriptive labels and emotional/childish name-calling (e.g. "POS").
I am voting against Trump. I cannot help it that Biden is running; I have raised my objections many times. But to claim that Biden destroyed the country pretty much kills any credibility your comment might have. Declaring Biden corrupt even though that case is almost dead, further damages the credibility of your comment.
In spite of Biden's negatives, Trump is an order of magnitude worse.
You forgot Mike Pence.
Does it feel like Ground Hog Day (the movie) yet?
Round and round we go repeating the facts but...............they have "alternate facts".
btw
The FBI still doesn't know what was in those 15 boxes that were flown to New Jersey.
Probably more charges?
Read the EO that Obama signed in 2009 covering that issue.
It is about taking the documents. Did you read the Hur Report? Why didn't Hur go after Biden?
You cannot argue that so you deflect to Clinton.
No, I don't deflect. Clinton & Biden had less standing than Trump. You and the PRA, that they weren't even covered by. She violated the law for doing worse than Trump did. Comey took care of her.
Biden gave classified info to a ghost writer and the ghost writer erased it.
IS THAT A CRIME?
Deal with the reality
Deal with the reality that all these cases are political and are destroying the American justice system.
Read the Hur report,
Politics has been "destroying the American justice system" for roughly 240 years.
It is the modus operandi nowadays. Certain individuals just keep ignoring facts and repeating nonsense pseudo-arguments.
Seriously, how hard is to grasp the idea that violating the PRA by taking documents (classified or not) after one's term in office as PotUS or V.P. is a wrongful act but is not criminal?
And then how hard is it grasp the difference between two PRA violators (Biden and Pence) who fully cooperated in the safe return of documents and the other PRA violator who obstructed the safe return for at least 15 months and, in so doing, committed several felonies?
This is easy to understand yet partisan loyalty apparently demands an attempt —no matter how feeble and confused the argument— to defend Trump.
i see the GOP and too "right' justices allowing Trump to do his best to undermine our accepted rule of law, on a consistent basis, and basis in fact to me, it be.
He's literally called these rioting traitors, whom all were given all of their rights and a fair trial, 'Hostages'!
AndTrump is going to 'rescue' them. Someone needs to rescue US, from the amount of ignorance ruling over far too many, imho.
No it is not about taking the documents. It is about willfully refusing to return the documents. Taking and holding the documents violates the PRA. Refusing to return them when asked is what gets one into trouble because that is criminal. Attempting to hide documents is even worse. Lying about documents, etc. is all very bad criminal shit.
Biden cooperated in the safe return of the documents. Had Trump done likewise, we likely would have not even known he had them.
You keep deflecting. Focus on the issue, Vic.
It is a very stupid argument to claim that these cases are merely political. That would mean that they are without merit. Clearly, the classified documents and especially the Jan 6th cases have substantial merit.
Politics affects everything. So I will give you that. But you are trying to pretend that Trump is being held accountable merely for political reasons and that is exactly why (I believe) Trump is even running — so that people like you will make that exact claim.
Trump engaged in serious wrongdoing and it is proper that he be held accountable. Especially, and by far, for his actions post his election loss.
even though undeserved, i wouldn't care so much how they give Trump the not guilty on anything pass, but the shit he pulled post November is of a whole different species
And that is what I care about. I care about holding Trump accountable for his outrageous actions post his election loss. That affects the nation. Trump set a horrible precedent that will manifest more bad behavior (by lowering the bar). We have already seen this occur as GOP election losers pull the same crap (at a lower level).
Further, Trump's modus operandi seems to have taken over the GOP. It might be me but the political discourse nowadays (especially from the GOP) is replete with lies. They are not even trying to hide it anymore.
We have this predicament because of people like this. They are as responsible for this mess as Trump, if not more so.
I don't know many of our group, ethnic, racial backgrounds- beyond possibly being White/Caucasian, Black, or Native American so this might reach you (and others) or not:
What's happening here reminds me so much of growing up in the sixties -watching how much talk/discussion/arguing/hoping/frustrations/praying it took to reach those In-charge of state and federal governments COUNTRYWIDE to try to get them to understand, see, and hear us - to feel our frustrations, losses, . . . deficiencies due to neglect and deliberate poverty - as black people wanting to live our humanity and prosper too.
Thankfully, things started to get markedly better for us in late 70s (seeming with no special 'anything' happening, but of course it was the hard, laborious, work of many civil rights leaders on whom shoulders the "seventies blacks" would stand) due to all the civil rights work done by President Johnson and "Company" - including some republicans and their votes in the House and Senate.
But now I can clearly and plainly see that the dark forces of 'old' in our country are arrayed on the horizon and are 'trotting' forward to sweep away all the progress - progressives and their liberal friends have made across this country.
This is not Republicans wanting to do something good or something better for all of us. This is the GOP/MAGAs feverishly waking up every day and going to bed late at night to revert the country back to TRIBALISM and NARROW-MINDED people divisions and separations, and forcing people to not trust in one another but instead look on each other with suspicion and 'dread' of the other. Thus, the dehumanization and demonizations and holding firmly to negative stereotypes of the Other.
It's all trying to knock the 'lid' off its can and pour itself back into way it was "before."
I will tell you something else as well.
This is MAGAs with their numbers hoping like hell that they can 'go viral' and draw/scare/challenge White liberals to leave off on the minorities and return to the 'fold' of being conservative and TRIBLE.
That is what I see and I am looking right at some of them in here, as their rhetoric is toxic. There has always been a certain group of "Americans" in this country that banded together to keep those of us who were suppressed by them under their political and physical control. Nowadays, they feel that they are losing on both accounts.
And,. . . these people understand plain English, these people understand what you are telling them, but they want what they want (as they did in the past) and they literally CHOOSE to pretend not to hear and understand, because that would mean they would have to give up suppressing their fellow citizens.
(TiG, my friend, I don't know how it happens that I always have so much to share with and through you. It is what is it is. I hope you don't mind.)
One more thing. I do not know why this country is twisting itself up economically to the tune of trillions of dollars. . . but, our country's spending has little to nothing to do with these damnable culture wars which suppress otherwise good people.
Citizens who can benefit this country if for one indefinite 'minute' we could stop fighting for our lives and get on with the business of helping this country be its best. We can fix our problems together, but we need everybody onboard and "in it to win it"!
Thanks for highlighting my point.
I previously said the documents were not noticed until 15 months. You strengthened my point by stating they were actually noticed to be missing only 4 months after Trump left office.
In contrast, they didn't even know Biden had decades of papers until his staff "found" these documents.
"And, yeah, I know you are going to yet again claim that everyone is out to get poor, innocent Trump."
Like many times before, you are wrong.
You never answered the question as to how Biden was able to obtain all of these documents, especially as a Senator, when they only way to view them is through a SCIF, and are required to return the documents before they leave the SCIF.
I will answer the question for you (although you should already know this)...he stole them.
Only because he realized he had done the same exact thing, but at a magnitude worse, after he sicced his DOJ on Trump.
There is no way you can know this; speculation is not factual. But even if Biden 'stole' the documents, that is just more deflection from Trump.
The Trump indictment is about willful possession and obstruction, not about how he came to possess the documents. Trump is not charged criminally with removing the documents (and you would have to label this 'stealing' to be consistent). He is charged with obstructing officials from securing the documents.
Yet again we see the pitiful faux obtuseness tactic.
You continue to ignore that the difference between Trump and (Biden,Pence) is that Trump obstructed the return whereas both Biden and Pence cooperated.
The 'boss' even told two of his people Nuata (spelling?) and another to erase the footage of the movement of Top Secret/Classified documents at Mar-a-Lago
The problem for MAGA is that you have no authority to make such a judgement where it counts. From comment 6:
Biden did not obstruct when asked. Trump made the government come and get its 'stuff'! It's an important distinction your 'rage at the system' is not encompassing for obvious and blatant partisan reasons. We see MAGAs right where they are in their blind partisanship.
You keep repeating MAGAs' version of truthful hyperbole and we will continue to push back with truth (without the hyperbole)j!
Moreover, Trump keeps flipping and flopping. . . (otherwise known as, He needs to get his lie straight) he has immunity; the documents are his personal property, he declassified 'everything' in the boxes (in his mind), and so on and so forth.
In any case, the Archive/Archivists had enough of the bull. And told the government to get its stuff. Now I presume the consequences of withholding documents against nice courteous request/s for their return was privately explained to this ridiculously stubborn and nauseous former president. . .and he stood on his indefensible ground anyway. . . until the documents were yanked out from under him.
I do know this for a fact.......let me explain no matter how you refuse to accept facts
The PRA covers the president and VP..not Senators, not Congressmen, not you, not I. In it is says the president and vice president is allowed to remove documents, albeit personal.. It is not a crime to remove said documents because, as you have acknowledged, it is not a crime. Yes, there are rules on how to do this. Trump was probably wrong in his assessment.
However, someone other than the president and vice president, that takes classified information is in the classification of a thief. There is no act that allows this.
Case in point....There was a sailor on a sub several years ago that took pictures of the engine room on his cell phone. He said he took the pictures to show to his son. Was that the truth or was he planning on selling them to someone.
Doesn't matter because he was charged with possessing classified information and was put in prison for it.
When I was in the Navy, we were briefed every year on how to handle classified information and the consequences of possessing these docs unlawfully.
Now, look at Biden. One can argue that he had authority as vice president, but not as a senator. He is known to have had (maybe still has) documents scattered all over the country that went back to his senator days. None of the places he hid the documents were in secure places. Almost anyone could have had access to him, ESPECIALLY the ones in his home and garage.
Lucky for him, Hur saw the confusion and and cognitive failure in Biden and between that and having a DC jury, there is no way he would be convicted.
Glad I can help, but I refuse to go in a circle jerk so this will be the last I will opine on it.
You can have the last word.
Let me use a quote from one of YOUR posts....
"There is no way you can know this; speculation is not factual. "
The Biden DOJ is not truth tellers, especially if it calls out their boss.
Have a good day!
In the back-handed game of silliness: MAGAs won't give up (or compromise). So here we are. You admitting that Special Counsel Hur did not charge or could not charge (whatever/whichever) and so the matter is ended and yet you tragically continue on this one man or 'pack' crusade to beat the horse that's dead!
The irony here is it is the law that president's get to pick their own Attorney General of the United States. If you don't like it: Gripe to the system. Take you complain to Capitol hill. Try to get it changed (if you can). We can't fix it online for you or MAGAs.
What is the irony that you see?
Cannon is hard at work trying to earn her invitation for an around the world private yacht cruise "gift" from Nazi memorabilia collector and Clarence Thomas benefactor, Harlan Crow.
Democrats are working hard to turn this country into a more woke, broke, and racially divided version of China.
Only in reactionary Bizarro World. In the real word your comment is a complete fallacy.
That is a. . . untruth. That you see efforts at national unity and a fulfillment of the aspirations of freedom for all in this country through its acceptance of diversity and what it truly means as a "woke, broke, and cause of division" just puts on display the foolishness that MAGAs are really seeking in trying to 'return' to the womb of this country. . .with all its 'birthing' and 'youthful' national problems, conflicts, and even war.
Only in reactionary Bizarro World.
Yes, reactionaries like Cannon, Thomas and Crow are in their own Bizarro World. As per your comment, you obviously agree. Cannon is part of the reactionary clique trying to bring down the country. Reactionaries like Cannon, Thomas and Crow are a bizarre group indeed.
See I would agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.
Bought and paid for 'judges' like Ginni, I mean that disgraceful and totally lacking in ethics scumbag Clarence and Cannon.
That two - tiered justice system that the 'right' is always fucking claiming.
Well then, it looks like there will be plenty of time for Trump's January 6th trial in DC before the election, afterall...
A natural problem when lawfare politicizes the courtroom. The election is am arbitrary date whose only meaning is political. There’s no legal reason to rush the case before November. The justice system should not be held hostage by a political prosecutor whose strategy is wholly determined by politics.
Knowing if your nominee committed one or more felonies before electing him PotUS may not be a strictly legal reason, but it is certainly a reason to not allow intentional delays of justice.
The choice is the prosecutors. He can do the right thing for the case and appeal which may result in a delay, or the politically Expedient thing and rush to trial. The choice will tell you which master smith Serves, justice or joe Biden’s political needs.
Isn't that up to a court of law to determine. Neither you nor I know all the facts in this case. We're still a nation of laws, fair trials, the presumption of innocence, and due process.
What a remarkable distortion of reality. Having a trial proceed at a normal pace rather than be delayed is spun as a "rush to trial".
What do you think I was talking about? Did you read my post?? My point was that the trial is how it will be determined if Trump committed one or more felonies.
Of course it is. If the prosecutor is making tactically bad choices to ensure a trial before an arbitrary date its most definitely a rush to trial.
Trump is facing 4 criminal charges and his lawyers are trying to get him off on technicalities in all four of them. What an embarrassment for the United States of America.
Trump doesn't want his day in court , he is desperately trying to avoid his day in court. all 4 of them.
You said he committed felonies, when that has not been determined to be a fact.
That is how our system of justice works. Why is this an embarrassment to the United States of America?
Again you fail to read. You did not even read what you quoted:
The word IF is fundamental to my statement. I am saying that the resolution of the trial would let Trump supporters know IF he committed felonies or not.
Good grief man.
Prosecutors do not set court calendars, according to my understanding. Clearly, if there is an issue of 'rush' for a trial. . .the judge would have to rule on it. MAGAs are letting their politics for Trump overwhelm them.
You have to remember, these are the same people that see equality as oppression.
If I was accused of something and I was innocent, I would want the trial TOMORROW. Yet trump always always always delays. Why?
he's not innocent. ( that was easy)
Obviously.