╌>

Dems Lie About Late-Term Abortion To Feel Better

  
Via:  Vic Eldred  •  9 months ago  •  135 comments

By:   Nathanael Blake (The Federalist)

Dems Lie About Late-Term Abortion To Feel Better
Democrats cannot fully hide the horrible reality of abortion, even from themselves.

Leave a comment to auto-join group Americana

Americana


S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Even enthusiasts for baby-killing want to feel good about themselves.

This basic psychological impulse is why a pair of Democrats lied during a recent Senate Judiciary Committee exchange about abortion. Responding to Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas, Peter Welch of Vermont asserted that "late-term abortions are very rare, and it's almost always — really probably always — where there's a medical emergency and the life of the woman is imperiled."

Citing the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois added that women "need" late-term abortions in cases of "maternal health endangerment; diagnosis of severe fetal abnormality which didn't show up or develop until late in the pregnancy; restrictive state laws that made it difficult for a woman to get an abortion earlier in pregnancy." As Ramesh Ponnuru pointed out, the CDC has collected no such data.

Furthermore, we know that late-term abortions are routinely done for elective reasons. Last year, The Atlantic profiled abortionist Warren Hern, who specializes in late-term abortions and will do them at any point in pregnancy, for any reason. He estimates that at least half of the late-term abortions he commits are elective, and he even admitted to committing a third-trimester abortion for sex selection.

Similarly, this year, The New Yorker published a puff piece about a Maryland abortion mill that commits abortions well into the third trimester — and the piece quotes one of the founders complaining that they don't do them even into the ninth month. The story makes it clear that many, if not most, of that facility's late-term abortions are done for elective reasons; the article offered examples ranging from relationship problems to one woman who just didn't realize she was pregnant until she was 30 weeks along.

These are not obscure or right-wing sources, but flagship publications of pro-abortion liberalism, and their reporting is clear that elective, late-term abortions are routine in at least some facilities. Nonetheless, supporters of unrestricted abortion, including in the Senate, regularly pretend they never happen.

This denial is not just politically expedient, it is also psychologically necessary. Late-term abortions are so obviously evil that most abortion supporters are incapable of admitting the truth about them; it is hard to think well of oneself while defending the targeted dismemberment of healthy, viable babies. Of course, as a matter of science and reason, we know that every abortion violently ends an innocent human life. But this is undeniable in the case of late-term abortions, where only a trip through the birth canal separates a legal nonperson with no rights from a legal person whose killing is regarded as especially heinous.

No wonder abortion supporters prefer to pretend that elective, late-term abortions never happen, even though The Atlantic and The New Yorker have documented them as a regular part of the abortion industry. Of course, abortion proponents cannot fully hide the horrible reality, even from themselves, as Durbin demonstrated by his comment about women getting late-term abortions because they have difficulty obtaining earlier ones. He half admits the terrible truth, while deflecting blame by insinuating that late-term abortions are really the fault of abortion opponents.

This is logically ridiculous and morally reprehensible — as if abortion is something a person should just be able to get a raincheck on for any point of pregnancy — and it thereby betrays the guilty conscience of a man who will not forthrightly defend what he actually supports.

A similar dynamic is evident in Welch's assertion that late-term abortions are very rare. This is a dubious claim, for more than 10,000 of them are committed in the United States each year. Nonetheless, even if this can be described as "very rare" on a percentage basis, raising the point reveals a guilty conscience. After all, if there is nothing objectionable about late-term abortions, then why should we care about how many there are?

Senators are not renowned for their moral insight and sensitivity, but even these two still know abortion is horrible and that late-term abortions are undeniably, gruesomely so. We all know this; in the age of ultrasound, it is impossible to ignore the humanity of the unborn. Yet Durbin, Welch, and the Democrat Party champion killing babies whose in-utero pictures we share via text and social media, and whose fingers and toes we can count in some of those pictures. No wonder they resort to evasion, obfuscation, and misinformation as they attempt to resolve the dissonance between their normal human desire to see themselves as basically good and the reality that they deliberately enable and encourage atrocities.

They are devoted to abortion on demand even though they know it is evil. And so they, and many others, make excuses for it, defending abortion as necessary for women's equality and advancement, bodily autonomy, or (if they are especially honest) for sexual liberation. And having accepted that something — whether money, status, promiscuity, or something else — is more important than human lives in utero, they will of course allow abortion on demand until birth.

They may, like these senators, lie about it to themselves and the rest of us, but at some level, they know. We all know.


Red Box Rules

Calling members trolls or dishonest will cause your comments to be deleted.


Article is LOCKED by moderator [Split Personality]
 

Tags

jrGroupDiscuss - desc
[]
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Vic Eldred    9 months ago

Feel better now?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    9 months ago

What woman would elect to abort her baby late term if it was viable?

NOT ONE.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Masters Guide
1.1.1  Right Down the Center  replied to  Tessylo @1.1    9 months ago
What woman would elect to abort her baby late term if it was viable? NOT ONE.

From the article:

Last year, The Atlantic profiled abortionist Warren Hern, who specializes in late-term abortions and will do them at any point in pregnancy, for any reason. He estimates that at least half of the late-term abortions he commits are elective, and he even admitted to committing a third-trimester abortion for sex selection.

Similarly, this year, The New Yorker published a puff piece about a Maryland abortion mill that commits abortions well into the third trimester — and the piece quotes one of the founders complaining that they don't do them even into the ninth month. The story makes it clear that many, if not most, of that facility's late-term abortions are done for elective reasons; the article offered examples ranging from relationship problems to one woman who just didn't realize she was pregnant until she was 30 weeks along.

You were saying?

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  Right Down the Center @1.1.1    9 months ago
woman would elect to abort her baby late term if it was viable? NOT ONE.

Yes, mothers never murder their newborn babies. Females are incapable of murder. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    9 months ago

The Federalist?

Sounds like nothing but lies and ignorance.  

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
1.2.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Tessylo @1.2    9 months ago

When you can't debate the information go after the source.  Pathetic.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.3  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    9 months ago

I don't believe a word of this garbage.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
1.4  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    9 months ago

What's the problem with abortion? There's no reason to restrict it. It's not murder or "baby killing," especially as the unborn are not Legal persons. It's a woman's personal choice. And it's basically no one else's business or concern. No feelings, just facts. Or are you trying to make an appeal to emotion?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.4.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @1.4    9 months ago
There's no reason to restrict it.

The Gov of California couldn't say that.

Many democrats can't say it.

I thank you for saying it and the RNC should have recorded democrats as honest as you are and used it as their demonstration of the democrat position on abortion.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
1.4.2  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.4.1    9 months ago

I'm not interested in what they cannot say or their political pandering. I'm more interested in hearing a rational and legal reason to restrict abortion. I have yet to hear one.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
1.4.3  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @1.4.2    9 months ago

Because it is murder.   And don’t bother ticketing “murder” because you brought it up.    

I’m not interested in the lefts faux constructs that arbitrarily decide what life is or isn’t.    In civilized societies murder is frowned upon.    People get thrown in jail for simple cruelty to animals but killing babies is okay?    It’s a fucked up dichotomy.    No other way to look at it.

And no, I’m not interested in the pro murder (choice) definition of what is life and what isn’t.   Not when pro choice advocates support abortion up to the moment of birth for no good reason.    Don’t waste your breath.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
1.4.4  Gordy327  replied to  Sparty On @1.4.3    9 months ago
Because it is murder.   And don’t bother ticketing “murder” because you brought it up.    

Factually and legally false. Abortion is not murder nor is it legally defined or equated as murder. And I didn't bring up murder. You did. And are wrong about it. It should be noted that no state prosecutes a woman with murder for having an abortion. 

I’m not interested in the lefts faux constructs that arbitrarily decide what life is or isn’t.    In civilized societies murder is frowned upon.    People get thrown in jail for simple cruelty to animals but killing babies is okay?    It’s a fucked up dichotomy.    No other way to look at it.

"Life" isn't the issue nor is it relevant. "Life" is just a buzzword abortion opponents  throw around because they cannot make any rational or legal reason why abortion should be restricted and try to appeal to emotion instead. 

And no, I’m not interested in the pro murder (choice) definition of what is life and what isn’t.   Not when pro choice advocates support abortion up to the moment of birth for no good reason.    Don’t waste your breath.

See previous statement. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
1.4.5  Sparty On  replied to  Gordy327 @1.4.4    9 months ago

Last I looked over 40 states have restrictions on abortion.    Some more restrictive than others but restrictive just the same.    Penalties for same include fines and incarceration

Abortion is not murder nor is it legally defined or equated as murder.

Wrong, see above.

And I didn't bring up murder.

Really?    Here is where you brought it up.    Your words: 

It's not murder or "baby killing,"

So please stop lying.

You did.

Wrong, you did.    See above

And are wrong about it.

Wrong again

It should be noted that no state prosecutes a woman with murder for having an abortion. 

I’m not interested in the lefts faux constructs that arbitrarily decide what life is or isn’t.    In civilized societies murder is frowned upon.    People get thrown in jail for simple cruelty to animals but killing babies is okay?    It’s a fucked up dichotomy.    No other way to look at it.

"Life" isn't the issue nor is it relevant. "Life" is just a buzzword abortion opponents  throw around because they cannot make any rational or legal reason why abortion should be restricted and try to appeal to emotion instead. 

And no, I’m not interested in the pro murder (choice) definition of what is life and what isn’t.   Not when pro choice advocates support abortion up to the moment of birth for no good reason.    Don’t waste your breath.

See previous statement. 

See entire post above and 1.4.3.    Life is the issue.    Scientifically defined sentience is the issue.    As noted, you can’t escape scientifically accepted definition.   To destroy sentient life is, by definition, to murder it.    A ghoulish stance to say the least.

End of story, full stop.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2  JohnRussell    9 months ago
  • Under laws in those six states, abortion is not specifically prohibited at any stage of pregnancy.

  • Late-term abortions are rare, however: Nationally, less than 1% of abortions are performed at or after 21 weeks of pregnancy.

  • Experts say that late-term abortions are not elective and are done only for medical reasons involving the mother or fetus, and that abortions are not done at full term.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @2    9 months ago

 The Atlantic and The New Yorker have documented them as a regular part of the abortion industry. I guess the progressive periodicals are at odds with the progressive fact checkers.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1    9 months ago

There is no such thing as 'the abortion industry'.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
2.1.2  Tacos!  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1    9 months ago
The Atlantic and The New Yorker have documented them as a regular part of the abortion industry.

No. The story identifies two examples. And those examples purport to examine a percentage of late-term abortions only - which themselves are known to be a tiny percentage of all abortions. To extrapolate that to “a regular part” and representative of “the industry” generally is absurd.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
2.1.3  Sean Treacy  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.2    9 months ago
The story identifies two examples.

So John was wrong and now it's quibbling over how often it happens. 

Aslo, per Guttmacher, data suggest that most women seeking later terminations are not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.4  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @2.1.3    9 months ago

I didn't say anything about abortion and i dont know what you're talking about

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
2.1.5  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.4    9 months ago
erts say that late-term abortions are not elective and are done only for medical reasons involving the mother or fetus, and that abortions are not done at full term.

This statement you posted is false. "experts say that late-term abortions are not elective and are done only for medical reasons involving the mother or fetus, and that abortions are not done at full term."

 
 
 
Thomas
PhD Guide
2.1.6  Thomas  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1    9 months ago
 The Atlantic and The New Yorker have documented them as a regular part of the abortion industry. I guess the progressive periodicals are at odds with the progressive fact checkers.

He linked his sources. Here  

 Nationally, less than 1% of abortions are performed at or after 21 weeks of pregnancy.

So, despite wishing it were so, your statement  " The Atlantic and The New Yorker have documented ( late-term abortions ) as a regular part of the abortion industry" is misleading at best and false if you intended "regular" to mean "normal" or standard practice for abortions. That you did indeed intend for this misconception to be assumed is clearly evident from the theme and tenor of the article. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.7  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thomas @2.1.6    9 months ago

Same question that I asked JR:

What restrictions, if any do you think abortion should have?


 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
2.1.8  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.7    9 months ago

None!

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.9  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.2    9 months ago

Do you think there should be any restrictions on abortion?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.10  Tessylo  replied to  Thomas @2.1.6    9 months ago

I don't know why the lies are allowed to stand.  Definitely not a good look for NT that ignorance and lies are allowed to be posted as truth.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @2    9 months ago

Let's simplify it. I'm going to act as the right's George Stephanopoulos and ask all the dems the same question...starting with you:

What restrictions, if any do you think abortion should have?

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
2.2.1  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2    9 months ago

None! Perhaps the better question is, what is a rational and legal reason to restrict abortion?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
2.2.2  charger 383  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2    9 months ago

Why should there be any restrictions?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.3  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @2.2.1    9 months ago
None!

Very good.

We have you down Gordy for an honest answer. JR and Thomas refused to answer that question.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.4  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  charger 383 @2.2.2    9 months ago

I am now doing the job Ronna McDaniel should have done before the 2022 midterms.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
2.2.5  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.3    9 months ago

I've given the same answer many times. But still no answer to the question of what the rational and legal reason is to restrict abortion? Or to what exactly is "states interest?" Or to how is abortion anyone else's business or concern, other than the pregnant woman herself and her doctor? 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
2.2.6  charger 383  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.3    9 months ago

Put me down for None, also

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.7  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @2.2.5    9 months ago
I've given the same answer many times.

And I respect you for it.


 But still no answer to the question of what the rational and legal reason is to restrict abortion?
 
Generally, I don't like getting into the moral argument, but if you are asking how the people feel:

According to the 2023 Gallup Poll:

When asked about the legality of abortion at different stages of pregnancy, about two-thirds of Americans say it should be legal in the first trimester (69%), while support drops to 37% for the second trimester and 22% for the third. Majorities oppose abortion being legal in the second (55%) and third (70%) trimesters.

Where Do Americans Stand on Abortion? (gallup.com)

I would guess the closer a fetus becomes to being a healthy normal baby, the more people tend to object.


Or to what exactly is "states interest?" 

Don't states act on majority opinions?


Or to how is abortion anyone else's business or concern, other than the pregnant woman herself and her doctor? 

I think some would argue that there is a life involved.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.8  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  charger 383 @2.2.6    9 months ago
Put me down for None, also

Two honest men!

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
2.2.9  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.7    9 months ago
Generally, I don't like getting into the moral argument, but if you are asking how the people feel:

According to the 2023 Gallup Poll:

Neither do I and I'm not. 

I would guess the closer a fetus becomes to being a healthy normal baby, the more people tend to object.

Sounds emotional. 

Don't states act on majority opinions?

That doesn't explain or define exactly what this "interest" is, especially from a legal standpoint. 


I think some would argue that there is a life involved.

Sure they do. But "life" is just a buzzword to manipulate or appeal to emotion. "Life" is also a scientific classification, not a legal one. And no "life" is allowed to use another's bodily resources without consent. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.10  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @2.2.9    9 months ago
That doesn't explain or define exactly what this "interest" is, especially from a legal standpoint. 

It absolutely does. Abortion isn't a one-sided issue. It is a fiercely divided issue. The best thing a state can do is put it to a vote. 


"Life" is also a scientific classification

Science can't tell us when life begins. Some say we should er on the side of life, others say it is all about the woman.


And no "life" is allowed to use another's bodily resources without consent. 

That is another very honest statement. So, even if life has begun, it has no rights.

We have made a lot of progress.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
2.2.11  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.10    9 months ago
It absolutely does. Abortion isn't a one-sided issue. It is a fiercely divided issue. The best thing a state can do is put it to a vote. 

No, the state doesn't explain or legally define this co called "interest." 

Science can't tell us when life begins. Some say we should er on the side of life, others say it is all about the woman.

When life begins is irrelevant. It's when "life" becomes a legal person that is. 

That is another very honest statement. So, even if life has begun, it has no rights.

That is a factual statement.

We have made a lot of progress

If that were true, Dobbs would not have been decided as it was and some states would not be restricting abortion.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
2.2.12  Sparty On  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.10    9 months ago

Science can’t define a lot of things.    Does that mean they don’t exist?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.13  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @2.2.11    9 months ago
If that were true, Dobbs would not have been decided

No, the SCOTUS shouldn't have legislated a law in 1973. As I recall from previous conversations you are ok with the Court doing that too.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.14  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Sparty On @2.2.12    9 months ago

Gordy went beyond what science may one day say. He declared that the unborn have no rights.

We won't ever hear such honesty from democrats running for office. It is refreshing to hear what they really believe.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
2.2.15  Sparty On  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.14    9 months ago

Current “Science” has general agreement that sentient life begins in the 18-25 month of pregnancy.     That is to say, to have the power of perception via human senses.    To snuff that out is ghoulish to say the least, murder at most and imo should only be done in the most extreme of circumstance.

Most agree that late term abortion should be avoided whenever possible.    It is an interesting dichotomy that many who are for late term abortion, are against capital punishment.    Interesting indeed.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
2.2.16  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.14    9 months ago
It is refreshing to hear what they really believe.

Who are "they"?

You have heard from one person that you assume to be a Democrat (Gordy) 

and a very conservative Mod who agrees with Gordy.

Presumably 2 political opposites.

So your survey sample is a very poor way of painting everyone with the same brush.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.17  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Split Personality @2.2.16    9 months ago
You have heard from one person that you assume to be a Democrat (Gordy) 

He is as much a democrat as you are. The point is how many refused to answer. That is what the media should have been asking democrats.


and a very conservative Mod who agrees with Gordy.

He is one of the few independents here. And the proof is that he agreed with Gordy's unique position.


So, your survey sample is a very poor way of painting everyone with the same brush.

My survey was a great success. I notice that you also have problems with the question.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.18  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.10    9 months ago

You have made zero progress.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
2.2.19  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.13    9 months ago
No, the SCOTUS shouldn't have legislated a law in 1973. As I recall from previous conversations you are ok with the Court doing that too.

What law did they legislate? Be specific! 

Gordy went beyond what science may one day say. He declared that the unborn have no rights.

I made no declaration. I stated a fact. The Constitution and federal law declared the unborn do not have rights. Neither do the states recognize unborn rights except possibly within the context f abortion. And what does science have to do with rights? Science does not establish rights. 

He is as much a democrat as you are.

Just for the record, I am not a democrat. I do not take political sides.

The point is how many refused to answer. That is what the media should have been asking democrats.

What difference would it make? Politicians would just be vague or roundabout in response. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
2.2.20  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.17    9 months ago
My survey was a great success.

Bias confirmation on an article that should not have been posted or allowed to have remain posted.

It clearly violates the rules.

I notice that you also have problems with the question.

I answered your question directly.

How many articles are you asking the same questions on?

The fact remains that Hallux's point is the correct one.  It's a woman's issue and should be decided by women.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
2.2.21  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.17    9 months ago
He is one of the few independents here. And the proof is that he agreed with Gordy's unique position.

Charger is proof that one can be both a conservative and not march in lock step over the cliff with the group.

Conservatives do not have to agree on every topic to be labeled conservatives.

There was a time not too long ago when both parties were both a mixture of conservative and liberal values.

Remember conservative Democrats like Murtha or liberal Republicans like Barry Goldwater?

And the proof is that he agreed with Gordy's unique position.

That only proves how far to right YOU personally have gone, no one else.

Also Gordy's position is hardly unique except perhaps in the company you keep

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.3  Tessylo  replied to  JohnRussell @2    9 months ago

The Truth, as usual, thanks John.  Nothing but lies and ignorance from the federalist.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3  Sparty On    9 months ago

I’m shocked this is still up.    

It uses the taboo “m” word when it comes to abortion.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
4  charger 383    9 months ago

As long as it is inside or attached it is still part of the woman and she should be able to make the decision as it is still part of her 

 
 
 
Hallux
Professor Principal
5  Hallux    9 months ago

From the same author: 

Made, not begotten: Why we said “No!” to in vitro fertilization

YIKES!

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
5.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Hallux @5    9 months ago
What restrictions, if any do you think abortion should have?

I can't leave out the most educated man on NT:

What restrictions, if any do you think abortion should have?

 
 
 
Hallux
Professor Principal
5.1.1  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @5.1    9 months ago
What restrictions, if any do you think abortion should have?

I'm one of those weird sexual letters that can't get pregnant, it's a question I leave to those who can ... my body is not theirs and theirs is not mine.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.1.2  Tessylo  replied to  Hallux @5.1.1    9 months ago

I don't get why Vic doesn't get that it isn't his decision to make.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
5.1.3  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @5.1.2    9 months ago

Vic never made that argument.

Why can't you answer the question?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6  Krishna    9 months ago

People on all sides of the issue can debate their various positions-- and claim they are on the moral high ground. 

But aside from any self-righteousness about their personal views on what's "moral" and what isn't-- there's another aspect to all of this. And that is what effect the issue of  individual citizens' right to choose their own forms of healthcare-- free from Big Government's interference!

And especially now, as we begin to approach a major election-- there's the question of how these decisions will effect the upcoming election.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @6    9 months ago
And especially now, as we begin to approach a major election-- there's the question of how these decisions re: reproductive rights will effect the upcoming election.

It seems obvious to me that the dominant Republican position on the issue of increased Big Government meddling in individuals choices re: their own healthcare may be a major factor in ensuring a significant Republican defeat at the polls unless its changed.

Here's one recent example (and significantly, its from a very conservative district!):

Marilyn Lands, Democrat who ran on reproductive rights, flips Alabama House seat

Lands, like Democrats in the state and nationwide,  ran on protecting reproductive rights . In a previous interview, she discussed having an abortion in the past, and said she wanted to protect medical treatment that was available 20 years ago.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
7  Tacos!    9 months ago

So, if you have a problem with purely elective late-term abortions, then outlaw that. There probably won’t be a lot of pushback, so long as you still allow them for pregnancies with little or no viability or that threaten the woman’s health.

But that’s not what the anti-abortion crowd wants. They want to outlaw all abortions everywhere for any reason, or - failing that - restrict them so much as to make them extremely difficult to get. We have already seen multiple examples of women with serious health complications refused abortions in cold-hearted states.

So, spare us claims of being “reasonable.”

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.1  Tessylo  replied to  Tacos! @7    9 months ago

They also essentially want to eliminate recreational sex and all forms of birth control.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @7.1    9 months ago

except for themselves of course

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
7.1.2  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @7.1.1    9 months ago

What restrictions, if any do you think abortion should have?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
7.2  Sparty On  replied to  Tacos! @7    9 months ago

Be honest.    Both sides are extreme.    

One wants to allow abortion right up to the moment of birth.    The other wants no abortion at all.    Both are extreme positions.   Way outside of the majority preference of no late term or no complete prohibition of abortion.

And the hypocrisies of both sides are palpable.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
7.3  Drakkonis  replied to  Tacos! @7    9 months ago
But that’s not what the anti-abortion crowd wants.

I think we need to be careful about generalizing everyone into one view. I'm anti-abortion yet I don't have a problem if there's a genuine threat to the mother. As for rape and incest, I think that should be left to the woman, but I would hope their heart and courage would be large enough not to. Don't blame them if they do, though. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
7.3.1  Tacos!  replied to  Drakkonis @7.3    9 months ago

Over 70% of Americans , whether they are pro or anti-abortion would accept some reasonable middle ground where abortion is permissible under certain conditions. They just disagree about what those conditions should be. That should be the state of the law. Unfortunately, politicians on the Right are taking real steps to limit all abortion under all circumstances, or all abortion past a point like 6 weeks, where a woman often doesn’t even know she is pregnant.

You just don’t see it like that on the Left, even though the number of pro choice people who say they want unrestricted abortion outnumber the pro-life people who want no exceptions.

I'm anti-abortion yet I don't have a problem if there's a genuine threat to the mother.

I think that’s a reasonable restriction in later term pregnancies. However, in some places where they have that exception, it doesn’t apply in actual practice. We see the state overruling doctors and patients on the determination of the threat to the mother. The result has been women suffering in the extreme while a dead or dying fetus poisons her.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
7.3.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Drakkonis @7.3    9 months ago
"I don't have a problem if there's a genuine threat to the mother..."

How about viability of the fetus?  Okay to make a woman give birth to a child that has no mouth or stomach?  If so, I invite you to tour the top floor ward of Toronto's Sick Children's Hospital where they care for the "monster" newborns, spend a day there helping out, the infants do tend to live for a few days at least.  

How did I get to see it?  When I was the Chief Barker (President) of the Variety Club of Ontario I was instrumental in the club purchasing and gifting to the hospital a $150,000. very special operating table for the purpose of brain surgery, and I was given a tour of the whole hospital.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
7.4  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tacos! @7    9 months ago
There probably won’t be a lot of pushback,

We already have a false narrative.

Do you think people want to totally ban abortions?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.4.1  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @7.4    9 months ago

OBVIOUSLY

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
7.4.2  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @7.4.1    9 months ago

Yet you won't do what 2 others were brave enough to do.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
8  charger 383    9 months ago

Nobody has ever explained how it is anybody else's business

 
 
 
fineline
Freshman Silent
8.1  fineline  replied to  charger 383 @8    9 months ago

Exactly !  Project 2025 in the making. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2  Gordy327  replied to  charger 383 @8    9 months ago

I've heard some invoke "state interest" from time to time. Yet no one seems able to explain or define exactly what thar "interest" is. Not even the states themselves. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.2.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2    9 months ago

Safe, legal and rare was once the battle cry of the pro-abortion movement.

Today that has been replaced by the seldom spoken word in post 2.1.8

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2.2  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.2.1    9 months ago

Political rhetoric like that doesn't explain "states interest" or why there should be restrictions. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.2.3  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.2    9 months ago
Political rhetoric like that

That was the old political rhetoric of the democrat party.

I guess they weren't as honest as you are.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2.4  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.2.3    9 months ago

Politics by nature isn't honest, regardless of party. But that still doesn't answer my questions.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.2.5  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.4    9 months ago
Politics by nature isn't honest

Especially in this case.


 But that still doesn't answer my questions.

There are those who would give you a moral argument. Again, I'm only trying to do the job McDaniel should have done.


 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2.6  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.2.5    9 months ago

Moral arguments are subjective and irrelevant. I'm interested in rational and legal ones.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.2.7  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.6    9 months ago
I'm interested in rational and legal ones.

So am I.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.2.8  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.2.7    9 months ago

jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.2.9  Tessylo  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.4    9 months ago

SHOCKER!

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2.10  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.2.7    9 months ago

And yet, I cannot help but notice none have been presented.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.2.11  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.10    9 months ago

There is an obvious reason for that. The article is about abortion narratives.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2.12  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.2.11    9 months ago

Narratives are subjective and/or games of manipulation. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.2.13  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.12    9 months ago
Narratives are subjective and/or games of manipulation. 

Unfortunately, they sometimes decide elections.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2.14  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.2.13    9 months ago
Unfortunately, they sometimes decide elections.

No accounting for people's intelligence or rationality.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.2.15  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.14    9 months ago

Or simply being able to distinguish between truth and fiction.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.2.16  Tessylo  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.14    9 months ago

That appears to be a problem with the alleged CONServatives - distinguishing truth and fiction -  or their alternate facts/reality.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2.17  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.2.15    9 months ago

 seem to prefer emotionally appealing fiction.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
8.2.18  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.6    9 months ago
[deleted][]
 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
8.2.19  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2    9 months ago
some invoke "state interest" from time to ti

Ask the Supreme Court in Roe. They recognized the state's interest in protecting unborn human life. This is basic stuff. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2.20  MrFrost  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.2.1    9 months ago
pro-abortion movement.

Which doesn't exist. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2.21  Gordy327  replied to  Sean Treacy @8.2.19    9 months ago

Once again, the state has not legally defined or explained that "interest." Or even why it's an interest to begin with.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2.22  Gordy327  replied to  MrFrost @8.2.20    9 months ago
Which doesn't exist. 

True. But I can certainly make a case for abortion. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
8.2.23  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.21    9 months ago
state has not legally defined or explained that "interest." Or even why it's an interest to begin with.

Once again, you are ignoring facts that don't fit with your narrative. The Supreme Court, in Roe no less, recognized the State's interest  in protecting unborn human life.  Until you learn to accept that reality and stop arguing made up claims based on your emotional desires of what you want to be true,  you can't participate in a rational discussion. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2.24  Gordy327  replied to  Sean Treacy @8.2.23    9 months ago

I asked a question: where is the states "interest" legally defined? No one can seem to address that. Instead, it's met with deflections to the state without actually establishing it. No "interest" is legally defined. That is a fact. "Interest" was clearly the Roe court trying to skirt the proverbial middle ground. But there has never been a rational or legal reason put forth why abortion should be restricted.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
8.2.25  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.24    9 months ago
ere is the states "interest" legally defined? No one can seem to address that.

Of course they can. As you repeatedly demonstrate, you just ignore it.   Read the briefs in Roe, where it was argued and the Court held the states have a legal interest in protecting the  lives of unborn humans.  Read the preface of any law regulating abortion and the legal basis of the state's interest will be set forth.   

All you do is claim the earth is flat, and when presented with evidence that the earth is round, say no one has presented any evidence the earth is round. It's an emotional response to having your worldview challenged and it's tiresome to deal with. 

. But there has never been a rational or legal reason put forth why abortion should be restricted.

A perfect example of what I was describing. Just perfect.  All you are doing is demonstrating your ignorance of the subject (or an  emotional investment so deeply felt that you shut down rather than acknowledge rational people can disagree with you.) . If you can't understand the arguments you are responding to, you aren't informed enough to address them. Hyperbole and denialism, which is all this is, doesn't change that.  Seriously, you should be embarrassed to admit this publicly. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
8.2.26  Tacos!  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2    9 months ago
I've heard some invoke "state interest" from time to time. Yet no one seems able to explain or define exactly what thar "interest" is. Not even the states themselves.

This is discussed in Roe v Wade if you’re curious.

It is considered axiomatic that a fundamental function of any organized government - including states - is to protect the lives and health of its people. “Interest” is perhaps too feeble a word. “Duty” is probably more accurate. Thus we have many laws regulating health and safety. If you seriously want to argue the state has no such interest, you’re going to have to eliminate all medical regulations, traffic laws, police and fire departments, environmental laws, etc. The list is very long, indeed.

In fact, most early abortion laws were about protecting the women seeking an abortion. It could be a very dangerous procedure. These days, it’s generally pretty routine stuff. That is an example of the state expressing its interest in protecting the health of the woman.

In Roe, the court acknowledged this state interest and further acknowledged that this duty to protect health and life extended to prenatal care - that even a potential life would be encompassed by this duty. And, in fact, there are many laws and regulations around the country protecting the unborn, which have nothing to do with abortion. An obvious example that leaps to mind is the body of regulations restricting the availability and use of Thalidomide.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
8.2.27  Gordy327  replied to  Sean Treacy @8.2.25    9 months ago

I am familiar with Roe. "States interest" is a deflection, not an explanation. The state has no compelling interest to protect the unborn, as it is not yet a legal person with rights and abortion has no effect on the state or society. That's why abortion restrictions are illogical. But the pregnant woman is a legal person with rights. So the state should be protecting her rights like anyone else's. 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
9  charger 383    9 months ago

Those who want to ban abortion should give up pencil erasers and backspace and delete keys on their computers because they want to take away the ability to correct mistakes. 

They also should not be allowed to ever return anything they buy

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  charger 383 @9    9 months ago

Can you list those who want to ban abortion completely?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
9.1.1  charger 383  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1    9 months ago

      "Can you list those who want to ban abortion completely?" 

Not off hand. But I know there are those who do

Should mistakes go uncorrected?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.2  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  charger 383 @9.1.1    9 months ago
Not off hand.

The dishonest media has listed every Republican running for office. It worked.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.1.3  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1    9 months ago

The majority of the alleged CONservatives who also want to eliminate recreational sex and all forms of birth contrrol,

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.4  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @9.1.3    9 months ago

Could you please list them.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.1.5  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.2    9 months ago

That would be correct

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.6  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @9.1.5    9 months ago

That they are dishonest? or that they have lied in that way?

I agree on both counts.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
9.1.7  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.2    9 months ago

It does tend to be conservatives/republicans who want to restrict abortion. In some cases so stringent that it might as well be a ban.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.8  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @9.1.7    9 months ago
It does tend to be conservatives/republicans who want to restrict abortion.

That is true.


In some cases so stringent that it might as well be a ban.

The media has successfully portrayed their position as an all-out ban and at the same time nobody has explored how democrats feel about restrictions. That is what has been the winning combination for democrats in recent elections. I showed you the Gallup Poll. That is right where the RNC should have started their message.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
9.1.9  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.8    9 months ago
The media has successfully portrayed their position as an all-out ban and at the same time nobody has explored how democrats feel about restrictions. That is what has been the winning combination for democrats in recent elections. I showed you the Gallup Poll. That is right where the RNC should have started their message.

Peoples feelings is precisely the problem. Some only seem to go by or argue from feelings and nothing more. This is made obvious whenever one argues about "life." 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.10  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @9.1.9    9 months ago
Peoples feelings is precisely the problem. Some only seem to go by or argue from feelings and nothing more. This is made obvious whenever one argues about "life." 

When it comes to abortion, it is a two-way street. There is only one way to settle it: VOTING. 

I'd say the issue has been settled at the ballot box in 50 states. It is time for the GOP to move on.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
9.1.11  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.10    9 months ago

Rights should not be put to popular vote. History has shown some states clearly do not respect rights

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.12  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @9.1.11    9 months ago
Rights should not be put to popular vote.

Your beliefs as to "rights" are not superior to another's. A right to an abortion is up to each state.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.1.13  Tessylo  replied to  Gordy327 @9.1.11    9 months ago

It's not up to the state or any 'man' or anyone else but the woman.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.1.14  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @9.1.5    9 months ago

Every CONServative is for restricting abortion at any point and eliminating recreational sex and all forms of birth control, except for themselves of course.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.1.15  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @9.1.5    9 months ago

What I said was the truth.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.1.16  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.6    9 months ago

It's not the media who is dishonest and lieing

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
9.1.17  Gordy327  replied to  Tessylo @9.1.13    9 months ago

Agreed! 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
9.1.18  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.12    9 months ago

Belief has nothing to do with it. Rights shouldn't be put to popular vote. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
9.1.19  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gordy327 @9.1.18    9 months ago
t. Rights shouldn't be put to popular vote. 

A fine endorsement of the principle that that our rights our naturally endowed upon us by our creator not subject to popular whim. 

Luckily, they aren't. There's no right to an abortion, desperate,  dishonest claims to the contrary. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
9.1.20  Gordy327  replied to  Sean Treacy @9.1.19    9 months ago
A fine endorsement of the principle that that our rights our naturally endowed upon us by our creator not subject to popular whim. 

Except they're not, unless one can prove there's a creator to begin with. Our rights are based on amd enumerated by the Constitution, which makes no mention of a "creator" to begin with.

Luckily, they aren't. There's no right to an abortion, desperate,  dishonest claims to the contrary. 

That is false. There is a Constitutional right to bodily autonomy, which can include abortion rights. There are no constitutional or federal rights conferred to the unborn. Neither do the states recognize unborn rights.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
9.1.21  charger 383  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.2    9 months ago

Guilt by association?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.22  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gordy327 @9.1.20    9 months ago
Our rights are based on amd enumerated by the Constitution, which makes no mention of a "creator" to begin with.

And makes absolutely no mention of as right to an abortion.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.23  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  charger 383 @9.1.21    9 months ago

It framed the narrative. They had everyone thing ban rather than restriction.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
9.1.24  charger 383  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.22    9 months ago

Is the right to have any medical procedure enumerated?   

Does it mention right to any bodily function?  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9.1.25  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  charger 383 @9.1.24    9 months ago

Most people don't believe in unlimited, unrestricted access to abortion.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
9.1.26  charger 383  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.25    9 months ago

I believe overpopulation is the biggest problem there is

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
9.1.27  charger 383  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.22    9 months ago

is there anything about changing sex?  

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
9.1.30  charger 383  replied to  MonsterMash @9.1.29    9 months ago

Overpopulation is worse but both are bad and cause problems

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
9.1.31  charger 383  replied to  MonsterMash @9.1.28    9 months ago

No it involves her rights and she has changes to her body and discomfort and inconvenience and recovery time ( to say the least)  There is also short term and long term economic issues. .  

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
9.1.32  Gordy327  replied to  Vic Eldred @9.1.22    9 months ago
And makes absolutely no mention of as right to an abortion.

It doesn't have to. It can easily be inferred and constitutionally argued for abortion. 

Most people don't believe in unlimited, unrestricted access to abortion.

Perhaps that's the problem: people prefer to go by belief than logic or reason. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Guide
9.1.33  Gordy327  replied to  MonsterMash @9.1.28    9 months ago
This is made obvious whenever one argues in support of abortion saying Her body, her choice. That's an argument for abortion based purely on emotions.

No, it's not. It's an argument based on Constitutional law and established legal precedent. Those who cannot make a reasoned argument rely on emotion. 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
10  charger 383    9 months ago

As a comparison, some have said with the charges against Trump in the fraud case  because no damage was done the charges are invalid.  I think the same standard should apply. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
11  Split Personality    9 months ago

I am sorry I missed this after participating today.

The title has been modified to make it inflammatory.

This example of copyright infringement has been referred to the RA as  a gross violation of the Terms of Service.

I am locking the article

 
 

Who is online




Igknorantzruls


449 visitors