We can not be great without God

xxjefferson51
By:  @xxjefferson51, 2 months ago
Comments: 84 ..

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What would happen if, tomorrow, the national debt could be paid off with no inflation or other ill effect, and if the per capita income of our nation could be doubled, and if we discovered a means of extending human life to 100 youthful years, and…well, put in whatever else you wish. What would happen? In twenty-five years, we would find ourselves again bedeviled with problems that seem insoluble and crushing, and we would again bemoan our wretched state.

After we won the Cold War, there was an immediate peace dividend that allowed us, if we would, to run budgetary surpluses until the national debt was paid off while lowering tax rates and leaving social spending unchanged. What happened? That toxic stew of materialism, nihilism, and instant gratification corrupted everything.


Our problems are not economic. We live in an America in which the greatest health problems are obesity and inactivity and our greatest mental health problems are boredom and an attendant addiction to drugs or games or other things that make the tedium of life bearable. The vast majority of "stuff" we seek in life is not really needed at all.

What we lack and what the world lacks is a spiritual benevolence that will incline us to be happy with what we have and to seek our peace and joy in honorable and just ways. What we lack and what we need is the religious commitment that was the foundation of our republic and that outsiders visiting America saw as the most remarkable aspect of our life. Without regard to a particular branch of Christianity, and many branches flourished in America, we were an intensely religious people. We connected our future with the will of God.

Such faith proved the perfect tonic for the grim disease of anti-Semitism. The same visitors to our nation who saw a genuinely religious Christian population also saw the most harmonious relationship in the world between Jews and Christians. Jews served in the Continental Congress; Jews were elected governors of our first states, and senators as well.

Men like Price Collier, writing in 1913 just before the Great War began, noted the anti-Semitism in Germany and the almost complete abandonment of Christianity by most Germans and also noted that the deeply religious American Christians had formed a land in which anti-Semitism was almost nonexistent.

American commitment to God led to that horrific but necessary surgery, the American Civil War, because slavery was intolerable to the ideals of Americans. No nation has put itself deliberately through such hell to end a great evil. Decades before that war, Americans formed in West Africa the land of Liberia as a self-governing homeland for freed slaves from America.

Our insistence on the defeat of Nazism and our insistence upon the defeat of the Soviet Empire were motivated by moral, which is to say religious, motives. Neither empire really threatened America, but both were seen as intolerable evils that we must end, which was the only principled alternative and which we pursued at great cost.

America is sneered at and mocked by much of the world (and by the elites of the left within our borders) because so many of us see God as the indispensable nexus of our lives and our attitudes toward politics. The right-to-life movement is not connected to any selfish interest; it is, in fact, a sacrificial movement, which is to say that those who have placed God above the state, when the state is immoral, gain nothing in this world but contempt and abuse.

The strongest support for Israel in the world comes from the most devout Christians in America, who care much more for the Jewish homeland than many hyper-secular Jews, who live in the godless land of leftism. The men in uniform who have died for us in foreign wars over the last fifteen years are also disproportionately deeply religious men, motivated to fight and to die for something greater than their own lives.

Seeking God also leads, as a byproduct, to those very goods most politicians profess to seek for voters today. Those groups that follow God seriously comprise law-abiding, honest, hardworking people who marry for life and avoid destructive vices. This pattern of living leads to a stable middle class, which makes the engines of national wealth run.

We cannot be great without God, and when we aim for God, a cornucopia of other blessings follows naturally behind.



Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/03/we_cannot_be_great_without_god.html#ixzz4aw5dwX9n
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XXJefferson#51
link 03/10/17 01:24:10PM @xxjefferson51:

God is the source of all our human rights and has made America into a great nation.  No nation can prosper long while rejecting God or limiting the rights of their people.  

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/10/17 10:33:47PM @hal-a-lujah:

IMG_6853.JPG

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XXJefferson#51
link 03/10/17 10:53:24PM @xxjefferson51:

"


America is sneered at and mocked by much of the world (and by the elites of the left within our borders) because so many of us see God as the indispensable nexus of our lives and our attitudes toward politics. The right-to-life movement is not connected to any selfish interest; it is, in fact, a sacrificial movement, which is to say that those who have placed God above the state, when the state is immoral, gain nothing in this world but contempt and abuse. "

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/10/17 11:12:25PM @hal-a-lujah:

Your God is a mass murdering coward.

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XXJefferson#51
link 03/10/17 11:25:32PM @xxjefferson51:

Really?  You used to say he doesn't exist at all and now you say the above.  Which is it?  

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XXJefferson#51
link 03/11/17 01:43:48AM @xxjefferson51:

Crickets chirping now.....

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 01:55:05AM @ambivalent:

We all gotta' sleep sometime...

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Randy
link 03/11/17 01:57:28AM @randy:

True. Not everyone lives online.

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 06:45:49AM @hal-a-lujah:

I said "your god".  I don't have a god, because I firmly and unequivocally believe there are no god(s).  We've had this same exchange a million times now, and I'll tell you for the millionth time, my mentioning of the word 'god' does not constitute a belief that god is real any more than my mentioning of the words tooth fairy, Santa Claus, leprechaun, or compasssionate conservative.  These are all figments of the imagination.

And yes, I do have a life outside of NT. Incidentally, I have asked you a question numerous times, which brings nothing but crickets from you. Since you wholeheartedly rely on the Bible for guidance in morality, and you thus believe homosexuality to be an abomination, then do you support the notions that marriage is between one man and as many women as he pleases, and that divorce is a sin? Or are those Biblical realities best left on the buffet in your world?

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 01:58:36AM @ambivalent:

I think the word prosper needs to be defined here. Germany (for example) has prospered and it has recently been noted that the majority of Germans no longer even go to church.

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XXJefferson#51
link 03/12/17 02:12:38PM @xxjefferson51:

The prosperity of Germany and the EU is relatively weak.  

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Krishna
link 03/12/17 03:25:45PM @krishna:

The prosperity of Germany and the EU is relatively weak.  

Compared to what? The U.S. after 8 years under the Obama administration? Laugh

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jwc2blue
link 03/10/17 01:43:55PM @jwc2blue:

 

or limiting the rights of their people.

Unless they're women, or gay, or trans, or Muslim, or.. Well you get the idea.

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XXJefferson#51
link 03/10/17 04:27:53PM @xxjefferson51:

Was Thomas Jefferson proselytizing when he wrote the nations founding document?  Was George Washington doing so when he said only a religious and moral people can make our republic work?  

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Perrie Halpern R.A.
link 03/10/17 05:09:29PM @perrie-halpern:

Jefferson's first draft didn't contain the word god or creator. It was added later and it is still unsure who added it. 

http://candst.tripod.com/doitj.htm

As for Washington, that was his belief and I respect his opinion. But even in his time, there were agnostics and atheists, and he clearly also stated that all could prosper here.

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Larry Hampton
link 03/10/17 03:39:03PM @larry-hampton:

The premise that we cannot be great without god, is further presented by articulating the idea that good patriotic christians know better than Jews what is good for them, or Israel...

 

The strongest support for Israel in the world comes from the most devout Christians in America, who care much more for the Jewish homeland than many hyper-secular Jews, who live in the godless land of leftism. 

 

Do you, as a christian, believe in Replacement Theology jefferson...

 

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism.[1] It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God[1][2][3] or that the New Covenant has replaced or superseded the Mosaic covenant.[4]From a supersessionist's "point of view, just by continuing to exist [outside the Church], the Jews dissent".[5] This view directly contrasts with dual-covenant theology which holds that the Mosaic covenant remains valid for Jews.

Islam also views itself as superseding the Christian faith with its doctrine of Tahrif, which "sees itself as the final successor to and the completion of the Abrahamic faith tradition of ethical and prophetic monotheism."[6]

Supersessionism formed a core tenet of the Church for the majority of its existence, and it remains a common assumption among Christians and Muslims. Subsequent to and because of the Holocaust, some mainstream Christian theologians and denominations have rejected supersessionism.[7]:2–3

 

~WIKI~

 

... ; or, is your view pure partisan hackery wrapped in a veneer of ill understood religiosity?

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Aeonpax
link 03/10/17 03:56:23PM @aeonpax:

`

God, in Her supreme omniscience, is the way to go. 

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Krishna
link 03/10/17 04:57:43PM @krishna:

Our insistence on the defeat of Nazism and our insistence upon the defeat of the Soviet Empire were motivated by moral, which is to say religious, motives.

Nope.

Perhaps you should read up on the history of the U.S. leading up to our entry into WWII. The fact is, at the time, sentiment in the U.S. was overwhelmingly isolationist. Most people here felt that what was going on in Europe was their problem, and wouldn't effect us. We had two vast oceans to protect us . . . 

So we didn't want to enter WWII. The only reason we did was not because of any moral objection to what Germany (or Japan) was doing-- but because the Axis attacked us (Pearl Harbour)-- so we were forced to!!!

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Perrie Halpern R.A.
link 03/10/17 05:02:29PM @perrie-halpern:

Men like Price Collier, writing in 1913 just before the Great War began, noted the anti-Semitism in Germany and the almost complete abandonment of Christianity by most Germans and also noted that the deeply religious American Christians had formed a land in which anti-Semitism was almost nonexistent.

What delusional version of history is this? In the first half of the 20th century, Jews were discriminated against in employment, access to residential and resort areas, membership in clubs and organizations, and in tightened quotas on Jewish enrollment and teaching positions in colleges and universities. Restaurants, hotels and other establishments that barred Jews from entry were called "restricted".[11]

Henry Ford was a pacifist who opposed World War I, and he believed that Jews were responsible for starting wars in order to profit from them: "International financiers are behind all war. They are what is called the international Jew: German Jews, French Jews, English Jews, American Jews. I believe that in all those countries except our own the Jewish financier is supreme ... here the Jew is a threat".[12] Ford believed that Jews were responsible for capitalism, and in their role as financiers, they did not contribute anything of value to society.[13]

In 1915, during World War I, Ford blamed Jews for instigating the war, saying "I know who caused the war: German-Jewish bankers."[14] Later, in 1925, Ford said "What I oppose most is the international Jewish money power that is met in every war. That is what I oppose—a power that has no country and that can order the young men of all countries out to death'"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism_in_the_United_States#Early_Twentieth_Century

Isaac Asimov was denied entry to Columbia university because they met their Jewish quota in 1935, which many universities at the time had. The original covenant to my girlfriend's neighborhood says explicitly, that they were not allowed to sell to Jews. So who ever wrote this, has zero knowledge of what they are talking about.

The strongest support for Israel in the world comes from the most devout Christians in America, who care much more for the Jewish homeland than many hyper-secular Jews, who live in the godless land of leftism.

Yes, Evangelicals do support Israel, but let's be clear why. You need all of Israel (including the West Bank and Gaza, other wise known as Judea and Samaria to be all Jewish for the second coming to happen. The footnote to this is that most of the Jews living there would get wiped out during the Apocalypse, (while the evangelicals are saved during the rapture) and the few remaining ones would see the light and convert. I'm sure that is not what most Israelis would sign on for, considering Jews believe that when the Messiah comes, he comes for all, and not a select few.  

The men in uniform who have died for us in foreign wars over the last fifteen years are also disproportionately deeply religious men, motivated to fight and to die for something greater than their own lives.

You do realize that most of this sites men have served in one way or another, and very few would call themselves deeply religious. 

 

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Dowser
link 03/10/17 05:37:06PM @dowser:

It absolutely did exist.  And still does.

Sorry and sad to say.

I'm so glad that dear Enoch isn't here to read this tripe.  God Bless you, dear Enoch, wherever you are!  You are beloved among us!  I'm embarrassed to read this garbage.  

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Randy
link 03/10/17 06:21:29PM @randy:

You do realize that most of this sites men have served in one way or another, and very few would call themselves deeply religious.

I served and I am an atheist. I did it for the love of my country. Not for the love of some non-existent mythical being.

Also morality has nothing to do with religion. I am a moral and good person I have been told and I believe. A person does not need to believe in a god to be moral.

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Krishna
link 03/10/17 10:32:33PM @krishna:

In 1915, during World War I, Ford blamed Jews for instigating the war, saying "I know who caused the war: German-Jewish bankers."[14] Later, in 1925, Ford said "What I oppose most is the international Jewish money power that is met in every war. That is what I oppose—a power that has no country and that can order the young men of all countries out to death'"

Apparently, however, Ford had no problem with Nazi Germany's responsibilities in causing many young mens' deaths...

And BTW, Hitler so admired Henry Ford's anti-Semitism that he made sure Ford received a medal for it: 

At a ceremony in Dearborn, Michigan, Henry Ford is presented with the Grand Cross of the Supreme Order of the German Eagle on his 75th birthday. Henry Ford was the first American recipient of this order, an honor created in 1937 by Adolf Hitler. This was the highest honor Nazi Germany could give to any foreigner and represented Adolf Hitler’s personal admiration and indebtedness to Henry Ford. The presentation was made by Karl Kapp, German consul in Cleveland, and Fritz Heller, German consular representative in Detroit:

henryford_nazimedal1938.jpg

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Krishna
link 03/10/17 05:15:16PM @krishna:

the deeply religious American Christians had formed a land in which anti-Semitism was almost nonexistent.

And there was no prejudice towards African-Americans either back then. (In fact many were happy to be slaves-- all their needs like food & housing were provided by their benevolent owners! As we also did with Japanese-Americans during WWII).  And of course those very same "Christians" were extremely humane in their treatment of the indigenous population... even providing them with things like blankets to protect them from the cold. 

(Do I really need to use the /sarcasm tag..???)

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jwc2blue
link 03/10/17 06:07:46PM @jwc2blue:

 

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Kavika
link 03/10/17 06:51:46PM @kavika:

Morality and religion have nothing to do with one another. A moral person does not have to be religious just as a religious man isn't always moral.

There are thousands of example of this in everyday life.

 

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ArkansasHermit-too
link 03/11/17 03:29:52AM @arkansashermit-too:

Morality and religion have nothing to do with one another. A moral person does not have to be religious just as a religious man isn't always moral.

 

A LONG established and well understood truth.

Image result for I care little in the existence of a heaven or hell; self respect does not allow me to guide my acts with an eye toward heavenly salvation or hellish punishment. I pursue the good in life because it is beautiful and attracts me; and shun the bad because it is ugly and repulsive. All our acts should originate from the spring of unselfish love, whether there be a continuation after death or not.

 

In dark ages people are best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind, old men as guides. - Heinrich Heine

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ambivalent
link 03/10/17 07:37:46PM @ambivalent:

(Organized) religion and belief in God (Deism) are two separate concepts.

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Krishna
link 03/10/17 07:56:02PM @krishna:

(Organized) religion and belief in God (Deism) are two separate concepts.

Exactly.

Spitituality & religion are different.

Supposedly religion helps people get in touch with spirituality. But you follow a religion & be spiritual-- or follow a religion & not be in touch the spiritual at all. 

Similarly, you can be very spiritual, and also be religious-- but you can also be spiritual and decide religion is not for you.

And, strange as it may seem, it is possible to be deeply religious & yet still be tolerant of those with other beliefs!

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pat wilson
link 03/10/17 08:20:41PM @pat-wilson:

it is possible to be deeply religious & yet still be tolerant of those with other beliefs!

Sadly that is the rarest of your examples.

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Krishna
link 03/10/17 10:39:30PM @krishna:

it is possible to be deeply religious & yet still be tolerant of those with other beliefs!

Sadly that is the rarest of your examples.

I think that's true because some people have a desperate need for a belief system that explains everything that goes on in the Universe. If that's taken away, they feel scared & disoriented-- so they cling to their belief systems. (And its not only religious belief systems-- for some people it may be a political belief system. Or even a scientific belief system. Even many Atheists often have an equally strong belief system).

So those who have such a desperate need for a belief system (and a need that it not be disproven) get upset when its challenged-- so they think other belief systems are not to be tolerated. So, they're intolerant.....

 

 

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pat wilson
link 03/10/17 10:52:42PM @pat-wilson:

Good explanation.

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 07:11:36AM @hal-a-lujah:

Or even a scientific belief system. Even many Atheists often have an equally strong belief system).

Atheists don't believe in gods.  That is no more of a 'belief system' than 'off' is a channel on the television. There is nothing spiritual about science. Most atheists find it offensive to be defined that way by religionists, who simply want to insist that all humans have some form of spirituality. That's just not true.

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 07:50:00AM @ambivalent:

Actually, many of our firmly held scientific 'beliefs' are theories not facts (ie evolution and all of its components) that have yet to be disproved. There is a strong idea floating around out there that humans invented science to try to figure out how God did it. I have mentioned this before: Max Planck, father of quantum physics, ultimately, after spending his life trying to explain the beginning of the universe, came to the 'only' conclusion that was logically possible: God, the Creator.

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 07:57:49AM @hal-a-lujah:

Basically, you're doing what I just described.  There is massive evidence of evolution, right down to bacterial resistance.  You mention that "humans invented science to try and figure out how God did it".  Don't you see that that comment is totally exclusive of atheists?  Bill Nye has some great books that you could learn a lot from.

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 08:02:15AM @ambivalent:

Atheists can learn too.

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 08:09:40AM @hal-a-lujah:

Science is learned.  Religion is accepted without evidence.

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 08:31:52AM @ambivalent:

Perhaps atheists can enlarge on their definition of 'evidence'.

BTW, religion is also learned, from family, community, and religious schooling. There would literally be no religion if it were not taught and passed down.

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 08:40:11AM @hal-a-lujah:

Nursery rhymes are learned too.

What evidence are you looking for?  Evidence that God doesn't exist?  That is no more probable than finding evidence that gods do exist, or that there's a quarter buried somewhere on Pluto.  Looking for such evidence is futile, particularly when the concept of god is given so much potential for revealing itself. God clearly does not live up to its potential.

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 08:51:49AM @ambivalent:

God clearly does not live up to its potential.

That all depends on what each individual attributes to God's powers. If one decides that God has failed him or her because He didn't accomplish this, or that, that God allows this, or that, it is humans who fashion their God after themselves. Isn't that what has happened with the religious right? Don't they say that God wants this and that, all because they want it?

 

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 09:15:04AM @hal-a-lujah:

Don't they say that God wants this and that, all because they want it?

Yes.  Conversely, as I stated in one of Jeff's articles this morning, I keep receiving things that others pray for (true love, babies, jobs, cure for illness), and many times they never receive them, while I simultaneously refer to your god as a mass murdering coward.  I've experience all four of those examples.  I didn't spend my time praying for these things, I spent it looking for them and finding them. How does that work?

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 09:50:29AM @ambivalent:

My response will have to be this: If God shows you where the fish are, you'd best bring a net. It is unfortunate yet true that too many people ask God to bless their plans instead of inquiring about His.

We pray to God to release our anxieties and fears, to express our gratitude for whatever we believe he had a hand in. Do we shake our fists? I do; it is release of frustration and rage, and some consider it heresy. At whom do you shake your fist?

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 10:12:53AM @hal-a-lujah:

At whom do you shake your fist?

Conservatives, of course.  Certainly not at figments of my imagination.

When you inquire about God's plans, what does it tell you?

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 10:16:37AM @ambivalent:

I wait. Sometimes the answer is in the question.

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 11:27:34AM @hal-a-lujah:

What about the other times?

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 11:43:11AM @ambivalent:

I accept what comes and deal with it.

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 12:02:44PM @hal-a-lujah:

Sounds like you need God about as much as a fish needs a bicycle. I'm just not seeing the advantage of a God belief in what you've written. The end result will be the same with or without the belief.

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 01:59:10PM @ambivalent:

I have no control over my relationship with God. He chose me. Perhaps he wants/ needs me.

I cannot continue to volley with you Hal, although I love it. I absolutely must continue to work to get the home ready for the market. So sorry. Be well and carry on!

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 02:17:28PM @hal-a-lujah:

Cheers.

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ambivalent
link 03/12/17 03:02:35PM @ambivalent:

Knowing God is not about results. It is about knowing there is a beyond worldly. It is about relationship through prayer and meditation. Somehow, some way, it brings peace of mind, and it calms my soul.

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/12/17 03:08:16PM @hal-a-lujah:

You don't "know" anything more than I do about an afterlife.  You are free to "believe" in one, and I am free to muse about the complications that are inherent to such a belief.  Will you be spending eternity with virtuous cavemen, and southern evangelical slave owners, and pedophile priests?

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ambivalent
link 03/12/17 03:12:56PM @ambivalent:

Beyond worldly to me means other than worldly, such as being in the world but not necessarily of it. I guess one would have to spend a great deal of time in a convent or some such place with cloistered people to understand, not sure. I have no conception of afterlife, never think about it. Do you?

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/12/17 03:31:03PM @hal-a-lujah:

Sure I do.  However, consciousness and life force I consider to be two very separate things.  I don't believe that consciousness survives beyond death.  I'm not adverse to the idea of life force migrating from one living thing to another, but I'm certain that consciousness does not tag along for the ride.  

Admittedly, there are rare stories of young kids knowing facts about dead strangers they've never met, and maybe there's some weird anomaly where that can be explained as a function of life force, but in my mind that is certainly the exception to the rule.

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ambivalent
link 03/12/17 05:01:12PM @ambivalent:

I agree that this is not generally the rule, but it seems to exist as we might understand it. My youngest son Matthew used to tell me that he felt that he had known me before, but not in the same relationship. He was a fascinating boy, old for his age and smart, charming, a girl magnet. It is a story best left for another time though.

I need to ask XX how he thinks you can hate an entity that you do not believe exists. I think he has misunderstood your frustrations.

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/12/17 05:15:10PM @hal-a-lujah:

Jeff is one of these folks who cannot accept that there are humans who truly don't believe in God.  He will twist anything I say to conform to his natrative that everyone believes in something.

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Krishna
link 03/11/17 04:41:47PM @krishna:

 Max Planck, father of quantum physics, ultimately, after spending his life trying to explain the beginning of the universe, came to the 'only' conclusion that was logically possible: God, the Creator.

Hinduism is arguably the oldest form of religion. Many "rational" types of people consider it to be sheer nonsense-- superstitious nonsense. Certainly not grounded in reason or science (in fact, quite the opposite). 

Yet fairly recently, some people started to realize that the latest discoveries in Quantum Physics (re: the nature of reality) had some striking parallels to very ancient Hindu teachings.... (how could this be? winking)

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Randy
link 03/11/17 01:53:47PM @randy:

Atheists don't believe in gods.  That is no more of a 'belief system' than 'off' is a channel on the television.

Exactly right. I don't believe there is no god (and yes we have argued about this before) I know there is no god. My TV on the subject is off.

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Krishna
link 03/11/17 04:13:51PM @krishna:

Exactly right. I don't believe there is no god (and yes we have argued about this before) I know there is no god

When it comes to discussions of this sort-- there's often a lot of nit-picking about the difference between believing and knowing. (A lot of people are sure they know something is true, when in fact its just a belief that they have). 
But again, in discussions of this sort--especially when its about religion-- I often find my self being blatantly anti-Semantic! 

 

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Krishna
link 03/11/17 03:46:07PM @krishna:

Atheists don't believe in gods.

Correct. Atheists believe there is no god (or gods).

Atheists have a strong belief system, just as religious people do. (Religious people believe there is a god, Atheists believe there isn't a god). And both are so very sure they are "right"-- and that of course the other side is "wrong"). Tweedle-dee & Tweedle-dum.  

To put it another way: both Believers & Atheists have a strong belief system as to the nature of reality. In fact, they are actually focused on* beliefs about one specific aspect of reality: whether of not god exists.

(Not that there's anything wrong with that Happy)

____________________________________________

*"Focused On": In many cases a better description would be "obsessed with" (both Atheists & Believers for the most part obsessed with that one particular aspect of reality-- whether or not god exists). 

 

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Krishna
link 03/11/17 04:06:40PM @krishna:

Atheists don't believe in gods.

Correct. Atheists believe there is no god (or gods).

Atheists have a strong belief system, just as religious people do. (Religious people believe there is a god, Atheists believe there isn't a god). And both are so very sure they are "right"-- and that of course the other side is "wrong"). Tweedle-dee & Tweedle-dum.  

 Another similarity between the two I've noticed: it seems like every time I see a discussion on this topic, both sides feel the need to proselytize. In the case of many-- both believers as well as non-believers-- its soon becomes obvious that its very important to "convert" others to their belief system, i.e. that god exists or that god doesn't exist.

At least, in many case, that seems to be their primary goal when they're online-- to engage in virtual "missionary work".

Hence the reaction that these sorts of self-righteous true-believer types often elicit:

GET A LIFE!


 

 

 

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/12/17 02:28:14PM @hal-a-lujah:

Krish - you came on this board and placed five successive comments without anyone replying to any of them, and you're telling believing and non-believing debaters of religion to get a life?  You don't see any of us doing that.

As for you equivocation of believers and nonbelievers, that is nonsense.  Belief in gods comes with an enormous amount of subsequent beliefs.  Non-belief in gods ends right there, which makes it not even a belief system in itself.  If you disagree, then please provide an example of something specific that exclusively atheists believe, other than the non-existence of gods.

 

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XXJefferson#51
link 03/12/17 02:59:46PM @xxjefferson51:

You believe God exists and you hate Him with every fiber of your being.  

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ambivalent
link 03/12/17 03:04:47PM @ambivalent:

How can you say this?

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/12/17 03:24:04PM @hal-a-lujah:

Because he's crazy.

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Krishna
link 03/12/17 03:20:17PM @krishna:

Krish - you came on this board and placed five successive comments without anyone replying to any of them, and you're telling believing and non-believing debaters of religion to get a life?

Yesterday I saw the topic, jumped into the conversation, and made a lot of comments very quickly. I've often done that sort of "rapid-fire" presentation of my thoughts on various topics from time to time.

However, if you are familiar with my years of participation on this site, you'd realize that its rare that I discuss the issue of religion vs Atheism. (If you logged on some other time, you might have seen me do that with any one of a number of diverse topics). But I am hardly obsessed with religion (or lack thereof).

But: your username  (obviously a variant of Hallelujah) gives you away.... its obvious that you are obsessed about something-- & what that something is.

(Perhaps I'm over-reacting-- but evangelical types who keep prostylitizing (be they religious evangelicals, atheist evangelicals, etc0 are annoying).

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/12/17 03:22:30PM @hal-a-lujah:

Screen name = obsession.  Got it.

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Randy
link 03/12/17 05:45:32PM @randy:

Atheists have a strong belief system, just as religious people do. (Religious people believe there is a god, Atheists believe there isn't a god).

Whenever a person says they don't believe there is a god, they are not true atheists IMHO, but are rather agnostics. To an atheist the word "believe" is not even relevant in any manner. Atheists do not believe there is not god. To an atheist the question of the existence of a god doesn't rise to the point of belief or none belief. Atheists to not have a "belief" at all when it comes to the question of a god, for or against. To me the question is just too absurd to deserve an answer of if I do or do not believe in a god. It's like asking if I believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy.

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Krishna
link 03/11/17 04:25:27PM @krishna:

 Most atheists find it offensive to be defined that way by religionists, who simply want to insist that all humans have some form of spirituality.

No one here is saying that all humans have some form of spirituality.

I am not a religionist, and I won't speculate about what all humans believe because I actually don't know-- I haven't met them all.

However, if someone has a belief that god exists, or if someone has a belief that she doesn't-- that's still a belief system.  (Its a belief of a specific aspect of reality).

What would be an alternative? What would it be if a person actually really didn't have a belief about the existence of god-- could that happen?

Yes-- there are people who honestly don't have a belief as to whether god exists or not-- they're called agnostics.

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Krishna
link 03/11/17 04:31:01PM @krishna:

Agnostics on religion (Christianity, Islam, Buddhists, etc): Religious zealots are often viewed as ignorant by agnostics’ because of their blind following of a supreme being which may or may not exist. Agnostics will often question the existence of a supreme power because a lot of modern religious beliefs have no basis in modern logic; therefore blind following of popular religions is viewed as an easy out for people who chose not to think for themselves. 

Agnostics on atheism: On the other end of the spectrum, unlike atheists, an agnostic uses a more scientific approach to their belief system. An agnostic knows that just because there is no physical proof of the existence of a higher being, it dose not automatically mean that one does not exist. An agnostic views an atheist on the same plane as a religious zealot; often because the belief that human beings are the pinnacle of intelligence and there are few things that we do not or have the potential to understand. 

The realization of knowing that “we cannot know everything” is the backbone of the agnostic belief.

Christian Zealot: God loves you and everyone. He will save you 
Agnostic: Prove it. 

Athiest: There is no way that a god can exist. 
Agnostic: Prove it.


 

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Krishna
link 03/11/17 04:31:28PM @krishna:

P.S: I came across this concept years ago-- IMO it is very empowering (that “we cannot know everything”). However both types of "know it alls"-- believers and their mirror image (Atheists) just don't get it-- they're both so sure that they are right!

 

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Randy
link 03/10/17 10:50:59PM @randy:

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Randy
link 03/10/17 10:52:31PM @randy:

I'm not either Ron. I'm not either. And I still think that you're great! applause

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The_Jewel
link 03/12/17 03:05:38PM @the-jewel:

That is one sick pathetic dude.

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 01:19:57AM @ambivalent:

And, strange as it may seem, it is possible to be deeply religious & yet still be tolerant of those with other beliefs!

Not really strange at all. Anyone who is truly, deeply pious within his or her faith can easily understand the depth of another person's beliefs, respect rather than tolerate another's rites and fervor. It is the knowledge that those who believe come to that belief through different channels than others that binds us. Sometimes it is the locale that chooses for a person, or family. I think it is the beauty of being able to have faith in what is unprovable that should connect people of faith rather than separate them. We are not all blustering, finger pointing, insistent evangelists, thank God.  

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 07:06:59AM @hal-a-lujah:

Sometimes it is the locale that chooses for a person, or family.

That is an understatement.  If you live in the ME, chances are nearly 100% that you are born into Islam.  Indoctrination locks it in during adolescence, by design.  This is how religion propagates, whether it's Islam in the ME or Christianity in the US.

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 07:55:40AM @ambivalent:

Another way of looking at this is that people seek their God in the manner of their communities.

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 12:08:11PM @hal-a-lujah:

Some people.  Nonbelievers simply seek cohesivity and secular progress in the manner of their communities.  

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 01:46:48PM @ambivalent:

And that is good too.

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Krishna
link 03/11/17 04:53:03PM @krishna:

That is an understatement.  If you live in the ME, chances are nearly 100% that you are born into Islam.  Indoctrination locks it in during adolescence, by design.  This is how religion propagates, whether it's Islam in the ME or Christianity in the US.

But isn't that true of other (non-religious) belief systems as well-- for example, political belief systems. or scientific belief systems?

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Hal A. Lujah
link 03/11/17 05:29:19PM @hal-a-lujah:

You can only have a scientific belief system if you are informed in science.  When the society you are immersed in forbids a scientific approach to education, a scientific belief system is out of reach.

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ambivalent
link 03/11/17 05:41:50PM @ambivalent:

Just read that Pence wants the Bible introduced in science classes. Literature classes okay, ethics/all religions classes okay. Science?

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Krishna
link 03/11/17 04:44:11PM @krishna:

thank God.

Pun intended? :^)

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Krishna
link 03/11/17 04:50:23PM @krishna:

And, strange as it may seem, it is possible to be deeply religious & yet still be tolerant of those with other beliefs!

Not really strange at all.

Actually that was just my perverse ENTP sense of humour! (I was wondering if anyone would notice that...). 

The truth is, I also do not find it strange at all. In fact, I have known some deeply religious people who are some of the most tolerant people I've met. (Yes-- even a lot more tolerant than some of the more Evangelical Atheist types I have known...)

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