Jesus said some are born gay.

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Some Christians confidently assert that God did not create homosexual people "that way." This is important because they realize if God did create gays "that way," rejecting them would be tantamount to rejecting God’s work in creation. In pressing their “creation order” argument, some Christians are fond of saying, "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!" To bolster their position, they often cite Jesus’ words in Matthew 19:4-5, where he responds to a question about whether divorce is permissible:


“Jesus answered, ‘Have you not read that the One who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh”? Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate.’ ”


From these words, some Christians draw the conclusion that heterosexuality is the creation norm and, thus, heterosexual marriage is the only legitimate way for people to form romantic relationships. Ironically, Jesus’ own words in this very same passage refute these conclusions.

As the dialogue continues, Jesus’ disciples are disturbed by his strict teaching on divorce. The disciples say that if divorce is not a ready option, perhaps it would be best for a man not to marry a woman. Jesus responds:


“Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” (Matthew 19:11-12)


Here Jesus identifies three classes of men who should not marry women. Taking his categories in reverse order, first, there are those who have made themselves “eunuchs” for the kingdom of heaven, i.e., those who foreswear marriage to better serve God. Second, he mentions those who have been “made eunuchs by others,” an apparent reference to castrated males. But Jesus mentions a third category — eunuchs who were born that way. Some might argue that Jesus was referring to males born without testicles, but this would be extremely rare. Moreover, this interpretation ignores how the term “born eunuchs” was used in other literature of the time.

 

~LINK~

Larry Hampton
link 03/18/17 07:35:21PM @larry-hampton:

In the ancient world, including ancient Jewish culture (as reflected in the Talmud), “natural” or “born” eunuchs were not associated with missing testicles. Rather, they were associated with stereotypically effeminate characteristics and behavior (just like modern gay men), and were thought by Rabbi Eliezer to be subject to “cure” (just like modern gays). Moreover, as we have also seen, eunuchs were commonly associated with homosexual desire. (For a complete discussion of the term "born eunuch" and the connection with homosexuality, see The Early Church Welcomed a Gay Man.) As a reasonably informed person of his time, Jesus would have been aware of this common view of eunuchs. Yet he very matter-of-factly asserts that some people are simply born that way. The implication of his statement is profound — God created gay people the way they are! Jesus says so.

Unlike Rabbi Eliezer, Jesus feels no need to “cure” these born eunuchs. He speaks no words of condemnation. Rather he lists people born gay alongside another honored class (eunuchs for the kingdom), and accepts them as a natural part of God’s creation order.

Thus, when Matthew 19 is read as a whole, we see Jesus teaches that most people are created for heterosexual marriage. (We too accept this as God’s predominant creation paradigm.) But, unlike some modern Christians, Jesus does not see this as the only honorable way to live. He acknowledges that some human beings have been created by God to follow a less common, but equally legitimate path. There are some who have been eunuchs from birth — made that way by God.

 
Larry Hampton
link 03/18/17 07:37:16PM @larry-hampton:

John 13:34-35New International Version (NIV)


34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

 
Bob Nelson
link 03/18/17 09:14:22PM @bob-nelson:

 For me, this is a "duh... DUH... DUH!" issue. A significant part of Jesus's sermons and parables explicitly concern "inclusion". 

In His One Commandment, there's no small print... no exceptions. "Love one another." Full stop. The commandment included Samaritans and Romans, back in His day, and (duh!) today includes gays, Muslims, Blacks, Whites, Jews, ... and even Westboro Baptist parishioners... 

 
Dowser
link 03/18/17 09:22:47PM @dowser:

Personally, I find the last group listed, sort of hard to love, (the Westboro people).  But that's what it is...

 
Bob Nelson
link 03/18/17 11:49:25PM @bob-nelson:

Hi, Dowser. 

When we say "straight and narrow", most people think "rigidly following a code of 'moral' behavior". I don't agree. "Love one another" with no exceptions... That's really hard! 

 
Dowser
link 03/19/17 09:20:51PM @dowser:

My Grandma always said that she chose a straight stick to marry...  My Grandpa was a good man, with high integrity-- a witty man, who hated no one, even the chiropractor who gave him a bad treatment, (although he did kick his gravestone)...  When I think of straight and narrow, I think of Grandpa-- a good person, who was kind to everyone.  He had a friend or two that were musicians that happened to be gay, and it wasn't a big deal.  So, shoot me.  It's none of my business, as long as it doesn't infringe upon my rights and isn't done to children or the elderly.  What should I care?  

 
Bob Nelson
link 03/19/17 10:03:02PM @bob-nelson:

Thankfully, there are a lot of people like your grandfather. 

 
sixpick
link 03/19/17 09:27:18PM @sixpick:

Personally, I find the last group listed, sort of hard to love, (the Westboro people).  But that's what it is...

That is because they stink!!!!  I could say a lot more, but that will do and no one wants anything that stinks.

 
Larry Hampton
link 03/18/17 10:51:37PM @larry-hampton:

Great to see ya Bob!

How's it going?

:~)

 

 For me, this is a "duh... DUH... DUH!" issue. A significant part of Jesus's sermons and parables explicitly concern "inclusion". 

In His One Commandment, there's no small print... no exceptions. "Love one another." Full stop. The commandment included Samaritans and Romans, back in His day, and (duh!) today includes gays, Muslims, Blacks, Whites, Jews, ... and even Westboro Baptist parishioners... 

Jesus would perplex nearly all traditional fundamentalists, and adherent evangelicals of today, exactly as he did then: By rebelling against traditional interpretations of love and the sacred, interpretations that held far reaching consequences across many spectrums. Religious, political, and economic powers all disliked Jesus for the same reason --- he called BS on anything beyond pure loving relationships. He saw through the dross. Perhaps that's why Jesus own words and message still perplex so many today, because they actually don't care for what he is actually saying; so, in their own minds they have created delusions about who God is.

 

 

 
Bob Nelson
link 03/18/17 11:55:04PM @bob-nelson:

Hi Larry, 

I don't understand how a person can claim to be a follower of Christ... and then condemn another for being what they are. Christ's commandment may be terribly hard to follow... but it is simplicity itself to understand. 

 
Larry Hampton
link 03/19/17 12:05:03AM @larry-hampton:

Matthew 7:21-23New International Version (NIV)


True and False Disciples


21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

I love it... "plainly".

;~)

 
Bob Nelson
link 03/19/17 01:01:02AM @bob-nelson:

From 1 John 4:

​ ​If​ ​anyone​ ​says, “I​ ​love​ ​God,”​ ​and​ ​hates​ ​his​ ​brother,​ ​he​ ​is​ ​a​ ​liar;​ ​for​ ​he​ ​who​ ​does​ ​not​ ​love​ ​his​ ​brother​ ​whom​ ​he​ ​has seen​ ​cannot​ ​love​ ​God​ ​whom​ ​he​ ​has​ ​not​ ​seen.​ ​And​ ​this​ ​commandment​ ​we​ ​have​ ​from​ ​him: whoever​ ​loves​ ​God​ ​must​ ​also​ ​love​ ​his​ ​brother.

That's pretty simple: ​ ​If​ ​anyone​ ​says, “I​ ​love​ ​God,”​ ​and​ ​hates​ ​his​ ​brother,​ ​he​ ​is​ ​a​ ​liar

 
Womb Raider
link 03/18/17 09:28:29PM @womb-raider:

You cannot be a Christian and support homosexuality. I abandon the church because they make it very clear. God, and his son believe homosexuality to be a sin.


Matthew 19:1-8 — Did Jesus say anything about homosexuality? Of course, when asked about marriage, Jesus issued a sweeping condemnation of all sexual relationships outside of the male/female model established in Gen 1:27, which he specifically cited.


 


Romans 1:18-32 —Though most of the passages deal with the male perspective, for the first time there is a specific mention of female homosexuality.  And as the verdict comes in, we discover it too is a depraved condition brought on by a sinful nature.


 


1Cor 6:9-11—The only passage of scripture that clearly acknowledges former (ex) homosexuals in the church. They are listed along with other ex-sinners who have been changed by the power of Christ. It is certain that Pastor Paul knew there were former homosexuals in his local church and he celebrated their freedom in Christ Jesus. With a completely different tone in comparison to the volume of harsh, negative reaction to the unrepentant homosexuality, scripture here ends with the tremendous hope and goodness of God.


 


Galatians 5:19 — Many areas that the apostle traveled to take the gospel indeed were very accepting of homosexual practices, yet he did not back away from communicating the sinfulness of such practice. Corinth, Ephesus and Rome as well as  other major cities of the ancient world, were all too often cesspools of all forms of sexual immorality.  Undeterred, Paul drew from sources familiar to him and forged them with New testament teachings of God’s grace to forgive and cleanse. In the letter to the Galatians, he teaches that the “works [not plurality] of the flesh are manifest. The flesh or sinful human nature is always considered and enemy to God. 


 


Ephesians 5:3-7— Paul repeats his warnings against “uncleaness” to the church at Ephesus.


 


Colossians 3:5-7 — Paul issues his third warning against “uncleaness” to the church at Colosse. This time he adds instructions on overcoming/controlling the sin. Believers are to mortify or deaden themselves and exercise self control (a fruit of the Spirit) over such actions. Homosexuals claim that denying the free expression of homosexuality is "suppressing one's true self", but scripture clearly instructs that we are hold our bodies in check and refuse it participation in sexual immorality. This passage further emphasizes that no one should expect to escape the “wrath of God” except they repent.


 


1 Tim 1:10 — the law was not made for the righteous, but for the “lawless and disobedient.” The law (of Moses) encompassed the ceremonial, judicial and moral components of human interaction. Christ neutralized the ceremonial aspects but upheld the judicial and moral aspects, tendered with grace and mercy. Hence, homosexuality remains a sin "worthy of death" but yet qualified for forgiveness through repentance. The phrase Paul uses “defiling themselves with mankind” is another link of homosexual behavior to disobedience and uncompatible to sound or acceptable Christian doctrine.


 


Titus 1:16 — This is an aggressive attack and exposure of the psychosis of those who are “defiled” and commit “abominations". Again, let us identify the source of the Apostle Paul’s strong condemnation. When one accepts what God has pronounced  abominable (by God’s own definition) and rejects the created model which God has pronounced good, a process of hardening and mental perversion begins to take root in the mind. Such is the danger of justifying sin. Sin corrupts the mind and conscience (the seat of individual integrity and morality)  rendering it incapable of making spiritually sound decisions.


 


Jude 1:4,7,19 —   Jude forcefully revealed that like the Sodomites, certain men in the church had gone after “strange flesh.” I believed Jude was describing contemporary "gay christians".  His choice of phraseology is a combination of two words: heteros and sarx meaning “another flesh with the same quality.” His inclusion of the word flesh pointed to the homosexuality (not the inhospitality) of the Sodomites. Similar to the Apostle Paul, Jude selected strong language to convey the serious of the charge facing the church. Allowing unrepentant homosexuals into Christian fellowship without applying the same standards of admission applied to other sinners would be a spiritual death nell for the church. Repentance is the major action a sinner must take to be accepted into the family of God.


 


Rev 21:27—The final book of the Bible, finalizing a complete picture stunning denouncements of all forms of homosexual conduct. From Genesis to Revelation, the Word of God firmly establishes once and for all the sinfulness of homosexuality, but also provides a wide opportunity for repentance and redemption through Jesus Christ. Homosexuality, as seen through the eyes of scripture is a spiritual aberration, a result of the fallen nature of man, a disease of the soul. It produces nothing life giving, in essence opposite of the nature of God who is life. Therefore it “worketh” or produces abomination which is death.


http://www.witnessfortheworld.org/homont.html

I've talked in length with many of my fellow democrats about this topic. Even the most intelligent of them attempt to shoe horn scripture to support their belief.

Christianity and Homosexuality aren't compatible. It would be wonderful if it were but it's time to stop pretending. 

Christianity teaches intolerance. If you identify as a Christian it is something you have come to accept and for that I am sorry for you.

 
 
Big_Brother
link 03/18/17 11:08:10PM @big-brother:

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You don't have to be a Christian to turn away.

 
Randy
link 03/19/17 12:28:32AM @randy:

Thank god I am an atheist and don't have to struggle with this concept.

 
Larry Hampton
link 03/19/17 12:30:16AM @larry-hampton:

It does free up one's conceptual horizons!

 
Randy
link 03/19/17 12:48:22AM @randy:

Makes it easier to get to sleep at night. Also made it very easy to accept my son when he told he me was gay and then later when I met his future and now husband, who is a great guy and wonderful addition to the family. Even if he is a Miami Dolphins fan. Happy

 
Larry Hampton
link 03/19/17 08:30:59PM @larry-hampton:

 Even if he is a Miami Dolphins fan. Happy

Lol; well I guess there really isn't such a thing as "Mr. perfect"! Seriously though, congrats on your son's happiness. Good mates are hard to find. Is this son the one who is such a superb guitarist?

 
Randy
link 03/19/17 09:26:04PM @randy:

Yeah and his husband is a professional drummer. He's the co-founder of the metal band Cynic.

 
Larry Hampton
link 03/19/17 09:51:45PM @larry-hampton:

That's pretty damn sweet. They literally make beautiful music together! 

:~)

 
Randy
link 03/19/17 10:00:29PM @randy:

Yeah, you know when he first told me he was dating a drummer I was like "Tom, you know there are gay doctors and lawyers and such?" I had this incorrect vision of some part time drummer working some clubs, but his band is one of the great on the metal/jazz scene (which I don't follow) and they were playing dates across Europe, the states and Asia. Sean is the real deal when it comes to drumming!

If it just wasn't for that Miami Dolphins thing. (sigh) winking

 

 
Sean Treacy
link 03/18/17 10:09:17PM @s:

Since the Bible wasn't written in English, it seems odd to ignore over a thousand years of commonly accepted understanding of his Gospel based on an English translation. Can you point to any authoritative commentaries on Matthew that advance this theory prior to 1900?

 
Larry Hampton
link 03/18/17 11:14:59PM @larry-hampton:

Since the Bible wasn't written in English, it seems odd to ignore over a thousand years of commonly accepted understanding of his Gospel based on an English translation. Can you point to any authoritative commentaries on Matthew that advance this theory prior to 1900?

What is it you are looking for? I have taken two years of ancient Hebrew, three years of Koine Greek, (two years of which were exegetical studies), and many corresponding Bible courses in seminary many years ago. I have as well read as many or more "authoritative commentaries", and associated studies, than any one you probably personally know, and was for many years immersed in nearly every Biblical subject you could ever care to name. 

If you look at commentaries many will actually confirm exactly what is said here; that Jesus affirmed his knowledge of homosexuality, and that some were born that way. If you prefer to then also follow the given interpretation that many traditionalists have promoted as being "authoritative", then you will as well also be stymied by Jesus' own words and actions. Because for thousands of years now Jesus own followers have done exactly what he warned them against. Modern Christianity, especially in the West, has completely forgotten about the poor, and the orphaned, and the widowed. The drunk and prostitute, the downtrodden and rejected all called Jesus friend. Instead, modern Western Christians have sought power and security through economic/political applications, being blinded by their own gluttonous appetites, and have forgotten they are supposed to serve and give. That is precisely why Jesus said in conclusion about the matter..."Let anyone accept this who can", because he precisely knew that deep in their hearts, many would reject what he was saying.

 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
link 03/19/17 12:03:10AM @perrie-halpern:

Really interesting points made here. I never knew about that passage, and it does make you wonder why only men were addressed. 

 
Larry Hampton
link 03/19/17 12:14:29AM @larry-hampton:

Great question. My assumption right off the bat is that the teaching was being given to a patriarchal audience, and couched in subsequent examples they would have readily understood.

 
Womb Raider
link 03/19/17 12:15:33AM @womb-raider:

Jesus never said gays were born that way. This is typical revisionist wishful thinking so the modern day Christian doesn't feel like a bigot.

 
Larry Hampton
link 03/19/17 12:18:09AM @larry-hampton:

Ya got proof, or are ya just spouting off?

I brought points to the table; disprove them.

 
Womb Raider
link 03/19/17 12:21:55AM @womb-raider:

You haven't proven anything except you wish he said such things.

 
Larry Hampton
link 03/19/17 12:37:46AM @larry-hampton:

I brought points of proof, you've brought lip, not rebuttals of those points. Got anything substantial?

 
sixpick
link 03/19/17 09:06:59PM @sixpick:

I could care less about whether a person is straight or gay.  I am me, not them and I don't rejoice because they are straight or neither do I rejoice because they are gay.  I can't go along with the eunuch interpretation, but then again I am not much of a Bible believer and I know people have their reasons for interpreting passages in the Bible.  I respect anyone's right to believe anything they want to believe as long as it doesn't affect me in a negative way.

I don't believe I am all there is, but I don't pretend to know the answers.

I do believe there are people who are born gay, people who are born straight and all points in between.

 
Larry Hampton
link 03/19/17 09:50:40PM @larry-hampton:

Thanks Six; I appreciate your point.

I know gay people who would as well understand, and agree with your words.

 

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