“This is the litmus test I use: if I were a Christian parent walking in the school, and I heard over the PA system during morning announcements music with the words ‘Praise Allah. Allah is king on high. Bow down to Allah,’ how would I feel as a Christian parent with that being broadcast to all the children in the schools,” Ledendecker told the Oak Ridger.

The FFRF is not in error, the school is. If this goes to court, they will lose. Out of all of Handel's work, I am sure that the teacher could have found a non-religious piece to broadcast to the whole school. What is there about church/state separation that seems to be impossible for some people to understand?

I love the George Frideric Handel version but this is by far my favorite : 

And this is MY favourite. This is what they should play in the schools, as only Leonard Cohen can do it. By the way, people with the name "Cohen" are descended from priests.

video.tudou

Thumbs way up.  Such a wonderful tune.   There are many wonderful covers of this as well.  

Travel well Mr Cohen.  See you on the flip side.  Maybe.  There might not be a flip side.

And absolutely no Wagner or Beethoven's ninth symphony.

Now classical music isn't PC?

George Frideric Handel, is that not classical music ?

How is classical music not PC ?

Handel praises God.

Wagner nationalism

Beethoven's ninth includes "Ode to Joy".  The lyrics praise God.

All three are not PC today because of their themes.

It's no about PC, it's about blasting overtly religious music at a captive audience. If the music was praising Allah, would you be content to have your child propagandized into Islam?

It's happening.

It's about playing classical music.  Not many kids have Handel, Mozart or Beethoven  on their playlist.

How many Islamic composers of classical music are there?  Google didn't find any.

Nobody is going to go get baptized because they heard a couple of minutes of Handel. 

And there is nothing in court rulings that say classical music can't be played for children.  The anti-religious rulings are fundamentally to stop forced prayer/forced conversion.  If you equate hearing music to that, you need to re-evaluate your thought process.

The rulings concern the constitutions caution against the establishment of religion.  When a public (government) school uses a captive audience to bombard them with overtly Christian music, it's unconstitutional. Plenty of beautiful classical music that is not religious.

I love classical music, but that is not the point. There is plenty of classical music that is not overtly religious. If you wish to play classical to children, then choose a less religious piece.

Beethoven's ninth includes "Ode to Joy".  The lyrics praise God.

 No they don't. Ode to Joy is a celebration of friendship. It came from a poem by Scheller called "An Die Freude"

No Beethoven? Schiller's Ode to Joy put to music (the 4th movement of his 9th Symphony) has been played in many schools - even as a themesong.

There is a lot of religious music, no one is saying you can't play it, but it needs to be played at an event that people voluntarily go to, not at a captive audience.

 no one is saying you can't play it

Yes there are those who say you can't play it.  Some in the article we are commenting on.

No Beethoven? Schiller's Ode to Joy put to music (the 4th movement of his 9th Symphony) has been played in many schools - even as a themesong. 

Buzz,

That is not a religious piece. I don't know where that misconception came from. 

Respectfully, I cannot agree. IMO the poem has religious references and overtones. For example look at the words translated to English. Here are some selected quotes from it:

Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! =  Heavenly One, thy sanctuary!  (In German, "Himmel" means "heaven")

und der Cherub steht vor Gott. = And the cherub stands before God!  

Brüder, über'm Sternenzelt   
Muß ein lieber Vater wohnen.
Ihr stürzt nieder, Millionen?
Ahnest du den Schöpfer, Welt?
Such' ihn über'm Sternenzelt!
Über Sternen muß er wohnen.

Translates to:

Brothers, above the starry canopy
There must dwell a loving Father.
Do you fall in worship, you millions?
World, do you know your creator?
Seek him in the heavens;
Above the stars must He dwell.

Note the capitalizations of the words "Father" and "He" meaning God, and is there no religious significance to the words "World, do you know your creator? Seek him in the heavens; Above the stars must He dwell."  

From Wikipedia:

"According to Breymayer's statement, Schiller's poem and particularly the verses "Brüder – überm Sternenzelt/ muß ein lieber Vater wohnen" ("Brothers, above the starry canopy/ There must dwell a loving Father"), are a reference to Hahn's kernel concept of The Fatherly Love of God. ^[7]"

And as well...

"Schiller's "Ode to Joy" is a fairly thorough examination of the emotion of joy, its origins and its purposes. It is inextricably linked now with Beethoven's Ninth Symphony and its distinctive "Freude" melody, but it's a fairly straightforward poem, and on its own it endeavors to create a feeling of, and appreciation for, the emotion of joy in the reader"     (bolding added by BotO for emphasis)

"Schiller's meanings in "Ode to Joy" are simple: Joy is needed for life and motivation, it is heavenly in origin and is available to mankind through a loving God. The proof of His love is found not only in nature's motivation to create perpetually, but also in nature's good things, such as the fruit of the vine. This is the evidence that should give all men hope, and allow them joy in that hope."

penandthepad

Although the ode itself contains religious references and overtones, the music by itself, being "inextricably linked" has taken on an identity.  Think of this.  If you heard the music only to "Silent Night, Holy Night" would not the words "Round yon virgin, mother and child, Holy infant so tender and mild"  run through your head, or if you heard the music only ot "Give Me That Old Time Religion" would it not make you think of the words?  Now, when authentically played, the ode is sung in German, so in America perhaps not so many would be influenced by its religious references, but they are there all the same. Some people who are incensed that there is such a thing as religion might think that the music causes religion to soak into a person through their pores.

Oh, by the way, I had fun coming up with this theory, but that doesn't mean you have to believe a word of what I said.  LOL

This verse takes it away from the secular"

 You millions, I embrace you.

This kiss is for all the world!
Brothers, above the starry canopy
There must dwell a loving Father.
Do you fall in worship, you millions?
World, do you know your creator?
Seek him in the heavens;
Above the stars must He dwell.

Ausmth,

I will disagree. It is poetry, and like most, can be interpreted in many ways. You can't look at one stanza without looking at the whole. In the beginning stanzas, he refers to greek mythology, then to brotherhood and friendship, and finally to a heavenly being. When I studied music (I play the violin) years ago, it was always taught that he was referring to the brotherhood of man and friendship. 

But here is an interesting clip from The Atlantic:

The difference with Beethoven, of course, was that he was not composing with words. Our only clear guide to what Beethoven "meant" with the Ninth Symphony was his choice to adopt and slightly modify a poem by Schiller, the "Ode to Joy," for the choral finale. The poem is littered with allusions to Greek heaven, to wine and nature, to a loving God, and to the blessings of friendship and marriage. Perhaps the key line, in Sachs's reading, is one Beethoven modified to celebrate the moment when "All men become brothers." But the poem could easily permit interpretations of it as a secular hymn, or a religious exhortation, or a spur to heroism, or a classical bacchanalia.

And indeed it has. Decades later, Marxists heard a rallying-cry of proletarian unity. Nazis trumpeted it as a Wagnerian statement of Germanic strength. Americans nodded along to it in commercials for the  Minnesota Twins  or  Nintendo Wii . Even the best musicologists haven't been able to agree on its meaning. Richard Taruskin called the choral finale "a mounting wave—or better, a spreading infection—of Elysian delirium." Maynard Solomon heard the herald of "a Deity who transcends any particularizations of religious creed...a fusion of Christian and Pagan beliefs, a marriage of Faust and Helen." Claude Debussy, a French composer of the early 20th century, made it out to be a "magnificent gesture of musical pride." All would perhaps agree with one thing: Taruskin's assertion that the symphony means something, but that nobody can "claim to have arrived at a definitive interpretation."

Which is at once a frightening and wonderful state of affairs. Unlike, say, Shakespeare's  Hamlet , Beethoven's masterpiece authentically can and perhaps should mean something personal and different to everyone who approaches it, standing for whatever we view as the best, strongest, and most exalted about humanity. As Wilhelm Furtwängler—one of the best conductors of the symphony—once said, trying to nail down Beethoven's ideas any more precisely than that is like stabbing a butterfly to an entomologist's wall.

Sachs himself admits this prior to his admirable, "highly personal" analysis of the Ninth: "there is one inescapable fact": the symphony "belongs to each person who... attempts to listen to it attentively." We may never agree what it means, but, as with an eclipse, all we can do is approach it indirectly with caution, humility, and wonder.

theatlantic

I think that is probably the best description I have read. 

 It's a good description.

The problem today is those who wish to "sanitize" public discourse from anything religious wouldn't think it acceptable.

Now they attack classical music if it has religious themes.  They are the ones driving this ridiculous outburst of cleansing.

Like all great music each listener takes away something different.  Those who oppose exposure to this classic don't hear a great composition but it's religious so it's bad.

I like the new format.  It is making conversation much easier.

ausmth,

Funny that we were both teachers and see this pretty much eye to eye. I think that studying Beethoven's music should be part of any musical education. It makes for a more well rounded person.  

You mean the schools don't have safe rooms to comfort kids who are afraid to listen to Beethoven?  LOL

I once subbed in a band class (I played trombone in hs) and the teacher left a film on Beethoven.  The story of his life sounds like many of today's rock stars.  The kids were surprised.

I have fond memories of Ode to Joy.  In the church my parents used to force me to attend, they would blast Ode to Joy through the organs the moment that service was over, and I would blast down the isle like the road runner to go home and join my heathen friends playing outside.  Come to think of it, it was a very good choice of song for the moment.  meep meep!!

For the record, there have not been any reports of children spontaneously converting to the Christian faith as a result of George Frideric Handel’s beautiful song.

Well that's a relief.  I would hate for this tradition of honoring me to end.

Not a problem.  I have taken to playing it in my car very loud.  Hallelujah!

First, as always it needs to be pointed out that this seeder trawls around the internet looking for obscure and meaningless examples of some complaint.  It's always an incomplete account and it's always overblown by this seeder.  

Now to the comedic part:  Are people really claiming that Cohen's "Hallelujah" is a "version" of the hymn from "The Messiah?"  Let's have a closer look at the lyrics, shall we:

 And, we can always count on you to respond.

What hobby would you have if it were not for XX?  You protest so loudly!

The first song I ever heard Leonard Cohen sing, and it was on a cool evening outdoors at the Mariposa Folk Festival in Ontario in the mid 1960s, was Suzanne, the song which paved the way to his fame.  While I stood there, the hair on the back of my neck stood up.  Since that time I have always considered him to be my favourite musician of all time. Even Bob Dylan, who curries no praise for anyone, has been reputed to have said: "The only musician who intimidates me is Leonard Cohen." (the word "intimidate" has a few meanings, but the only relevant meaning is "earning one's respect".  I could be exaggerating a little because on stage at the Newport Folk Festival (not the one I attended which was the one where, to my astonishment, he went electric, to the boos of the crowd, but to the one where in a duet with Joan Baez she said "He speaks for me" and he replied with "She sings for me".  Anyway, after all this bullshit I wanted to quote a verse from Suzanne, and you can determine if it was religious (not his religion) or not.

And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water
And he spent a long time watching from his lonely wooden tower
And when he knew for certain only drowning men could see him
He said all men will be sailors then until the sea shall free them
But he himself was broken, long before the sky would open
Forsaken, almost human, he sank beneath your wisdom like a stone 

 Then you agree with me that Cohen's Hallelujah is okay to play in schools, because it is not religious, but perhaps philosophical? (although I wonder if they still teach philosophy in American colleges, because it could send a lot of students into their "Safe Rooms".

Cohen, being Jewish, would have phrased the song in consideration of Judaism, the Old Testament, and in fact refers to David playing the harp:

1 Samuel 16:14-23 CEV - David Plays the Harp for Saul ...

According to the dictionary, the word Hallelujah can be used two different ways. As a noun it means "a shout of joy" or in the case of hte song it is an exclamation of 'hallelujah" (the interjection), and as an interjection, it means: Praise ye the Lord.

Dictionary.com

I'm sorry Pat, but I have to disagree. I'm not a great expert on Leonard Cohen, but he has been my favourite musician since the 1960s, and I have been following his career ever since I first watched and heard him sing 'Susanne' back then. If I have any feeling for the person Leonard Cohen is, I think that if he sat and watched and heard Kaylee sing that song, he would have gone over and given her a hug and a kiss.

 With all due respect I disagree. I think Leonard Cohen would be disturbed by the major changes of his song which is really a poem.

 LOL Pat. A FRIENDLY agree to disagree.

If I had $1 for every time I've sung the Hallelujah chorus, (short version), in school, I'd be rich...  Every time I passed a test, or got a better grade on something that I thought I hadn't done very well in...  Every time mid-terms or finals were over...  Every time I found my car in the parking lot at the dorm...  Every time the cafeteria was open, as promised...  At the end of every geology lab...  etc.  

Even the 9th Circuit wouldn't ban playing music in a school simply because the song is religious,  especially it's part of a curriculum studying classical masters. It depends on the context. Playing this particular song over the loudspeaker to a captive audience is going to be a problem if that's the only selection every day. 

However, the 14th amendment was enacted to ensure that states did not treat newly freed slaves as second class citizens. The drafters had no idea that the Court would take the prohibition against adopting a religion, as set forth in the 1st amendment, and read it into the "liberty" language of the 14th amendment to prevent playing religious music in a school. 

Listening to a beautiful uplifting song like this is a great way for a child or anybody else to start out the day. I hadn't heard Kaylee sing before now so thanks for posting it. 

Listening to a beautiful uplifting song like this is a great way for a child or anybody else to start out the day.

Like you said so well, as long as it's not the only song they play.  I am an old band geek.  I love Holst.  "The Planets" is seldom heard in schools.  Mozart needs more play time as well.  My favorite was used in "Elvira Madigan".  Esterhazy needs air time as well. 

"Elvira Madigan" !!! Now that's a movie I've forgotten about, so thanks for the reminder. If I recall the movie was one of the most lyrical films I've seen. I'll ask Nowhere Man to post put it on the Classic Cinema group, where you can watch some well chosen and sometimes esoteric and/or forgotten classic movies.

I need a clarification, please: What type of song is Hozier's, Take Me To Church?

Sounds to me like a song about sex.

I am going to take a different tack to this discussion. This is a school and there are kids involved. The Hallelujah Chorus is a classic with words honoring Jesus Christ. What of it?

Are we expelling any/all representations of spirituality from the public marketplace? Can we/should we do this?

There are religious students in every school in this country it is called integration. Our schools should be workable, not just drone systems!

If you include songs promoting one religion, you have to allow songs promoting them all.  Are you prepared for the consequences of that?  And since morning announcements are compulsory - you'll need to make it compulsory to listen to, for example, the Muslim call to prayer, or whatever songs the Satanic Temple might like to have included (I really have no idea if they have hymns or not, but you can bet they'll jump at the chance you're trying to give them).