So did she prove anything? 

Too much of the Kool Aid is detrimental to your health?

So did she prove anything?

Since they didn't die the invisible sky fairy is obviously real.    Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Yeah, she's nuts.

So did she prove anything?

Yes, that she is an idiot. 

Faith disables critical thinking.

Faith disables critical thinking.

We are not doing nearly enough to treat mental illness in the US.  This woman is looney tunes and her children are only alive because of the safety of child seats. 

Absolutely correct, and this very statement applies to mass shooters aw well, just remember that the next time you wanna rant about gun control.

You seem to think that any form of gun control means the repeal of the 2nd Amendment. The very working of that amendment states that guns are to be regulated by the government.

There is no reason that assault weapons should be owned by the general public without strict controls.

My friend, faith has little to do with this woman's personal state. Should she have jumped from a building, by faith, gravity would have driven her into the pavement or dirt below.  Had she known enough about faith, she would have understood that Jesus warned his followers against acting with presumption ( behavior perceived as arrogant, disrespectful, and transgressing the limits of what is permitted or appropriate). We can not MAKE-COMMAND God to do anything!

I recognize you disagree with her notion of 'true' faith, but faith in this context is " Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof [solid evidence] " .   She crashed her car because of her faith and in spite of critical thinking.   It does not matter if her faith was of poor quality - it was still belief without sufficient evidence and she is one of many who has cast aside critical thinking in deference to faith.

Another example of faith disabling critical thinking with horrible consequences are the almost endless stream of contemporary suicide bombers engaging in mass murder / suicide because they have faith that they will be martyred and will enjoy the favor of Allah in Heaven.

It's presumption. She had no earthly or spiritual reason to drive a perfectly good car into a pole. As people of faith we are expected to be reasonable. Never forget that in these discussion.

What? Is God a spiritual Preemptor? Are we to have expectations of being naturally saved from disasters of our own earthy creation?  Better to have her die and enter into Eternity, than to have her cause the whole world to go running after her as someone exceedingly SPECIAL to God! Moreover, how many people would God have to preempt from wasteful deaths due to cavalier and ignorant activities?

No this is presumption, and it is not of Faith.

COMPARE:

Apparently, this poor lady did not know Jesus rebuked the 'foolishness' of running into objects as any kind of reasonable test of faith!

She thought she had reason.

Parents who withhold necessary medical care think they have reason, sometimes with more tragic results than we see here.

People can twist scriptures to mean just about anything that suits them.  And since lacking faith is a sin, they sometimes will sacrifice anything to prove to themselves and others that they have faith.  Up to and including the sacrifice of their children.

Friend Sandy, this woman has mental issues. She likely is charged with child endangerment. Her young daughter has more commonsense when talking with police afterwards. Take the children from this sick young woman. Do not give her another try at injuring, killing, or putting them in a vegetative state. She is as dangerous as a spree killer with a gun! Her pretense of faith is not bible based! It is "blind faith that leaps into the darkness" and as such is worthless.

Another example of faith disabling critical thinking with horrible consequences are the almost endless stream of contemporary suicide bombers engaging in mass murder / suicide because they have faith that they will be martyred and will enjoy the favor of Allah in Heaven.

I don't think that's a good example or at least not the kind you intend since studies have repeatedly shown that the motives of suicide bombers are primarily political and due to foreign military occupation, not due to religion.   Depending on where the conflict is the suicide bombers have been Christian, Jewish, atheist, Buddhist, etc.   It's only recently that most have been Muslim and that's due primarily to the geography of the conflict.

Apparently, this poor lady did not know Jesus rebuked the 'foolishness' of running into objects as any kind of reasonable test of faith!

I think anyone who justifies their actions by referring to their superstitions should be considered mentally ill.

As people of faith we are expected to be reasonable. Never forget that in these discussion.

People have different views on what is 'reasonable'.   

I don't think that's a good example or at least not the kind you intend since studies have repeatedly shown that the motives of suicide bombers are primarily political and due to foreign military occupation, not due to religion.

I think it is an excellent example because it shows how the belief in the promises of martyrdom would enable one to commit suicide to advance one's political cause.   Take away the belief that there is an afterlife full of rewards and you will no doubt find far fewer willing suicide bombers.

Dry humor, again? Go ahead, 'drain yourself.' When did you retire from doing full sets? Can't pack 'em like you used to?

it shows how the belief in the promises of martyrdom would enable one to commit suicide to advance one's political cause.   Take away the belief that there is an afterlife full of rewards and you will no doubt find far fewer willing suicide bombers.

Except it doesn't really do that at all.   I myself would have assumed it would but the research on this issue proves otherwise.    See Robert Pape's "Dying to Win" and subsequent research on suicide bombers, and note that the Tamil Tigers who used that tactic were largely secular, as were several during the Lebanese civil war.    What we see today where mostly Muslims are using the tactic has more to do with geography than anything else.

npr

columbia

TiG, share a little levity with me:

... the Tamil Tigers who used that tactic were largely secular ...

There are indeed motivations  other  than religion that enable suicide bombers to sacrifice themselves.   The most well known suicide bombers were the WWII Japanese Kamikazes.   We know they were not motivated by religion but rather by honor - enabled by the Japanese collectivist culture of honor and discipline.   

And, per my example, there are groups whose suicide bombers are enabled by religion to give up their lives - such as radical Islamic terrorists.   The fact that other suicide bombers are enabled by factors other than religion does not mean those of my example are not enabled by religion.    My example was radical Islam, not the Tamil Tigers, so it makes sense to consider why the radical Islamic suicide bombers sacrifice themselves:

While necessarily a political movement the objectives are inseparable from religion - typically to promote their brand of Islam throughout the world.   For the individual bombers, instead of honor (per culture) or nationalism or military oppression as the motivation, we have religion (sweetened by the immediate rewards to martyrs) that certainly seems to be the dominant enabler mechanism for individuals to sacrifice themselves for their cause.   ( There are other notable factors include sacrificing oneself to improve the financial stability of one's family (personal desperation). )

We should also look at the big picture because this sets the stage for the minions.   Strategic objectives of al Queda ( source ):

1) Inspire and incite Islamic movements and the Muslim masses of the world to attack the enemies of Islam .   

2) Expel Western Powers from the Middle East.   -  “ Killing the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim who can carry it out in any country where it proves possible, in order to liberate Al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy sanctuary [Mecca] from their grip , and to the point that their armies leave all Muslim territory , defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. ”

3) Destroy Israel

4) Establish Islamic religious authority in the Middle East (Caliphate).

5) Extend Islamic authority and religion into new areas of the world

These political objectives are obviously inseparable from religion.   The culture that prepares recruits is religious based.   The psychological preparation for being a suicide bomber is religious based.   The very act of the bombing is religious martyrdom - 'Allahu Akbar' is a religious exclamation.    

Turning back to my original comment (which used radical Islamic terrorism as the example):

TiG  @ 2.2.1  - Another example of faith disabling critical thinking with horrible consequences are the almost endless stream of contemporary suicide bombers engaging in mass murder / suicide because they have faith that they will be martyred and will enjoy the favor of Allah in Heaven.

There are indeed other motivating factors for suicide bombers in history.  But in the case of radical Islamic terrorism (my example) religious faith seems to be dominant and belief in Heavenly rewards of martyrdom  seems to be the enabling mechanism to overcome the individual fear of the suicide bomber.

There are indeed other motivating factors for suicide bombers in history.  But in the case of radical Islamic terrorism (my example) religious faith seems to be dominant and belief in Heavenly rewards of martyrdom seems to be the enabling mechanism to overcome the individual fear of the suicide bomber.

I'd really recommend that you read Pape's work because he compares over 100 years of these incidents but really focuses on the all the incidents since the 1940s, including the Lebanese civil war where people of a variety of faiths and atheists were all blowing themselves up to chase out foreign soldiers.    And it's clear that the primary motivations are political not religious.    It's a matter of hard data not supposition - he's documented each and every one of these incidents and categorized the motives when it could be discerned.

And it's clear that the primary motivations are political not religious.

Understood.   But I was not making the point that suicide attacks are all religious (or even predominantly religious) but rather that religion is a powerful mechanism that disables critical thinking to the point where people will actually kill themselves on faith that they will have a heavenly after-life as a martyr.    Faith disables critical thinking and IMO the radical Islamic terrorist organizations offer a fine example of this.

But I was not making the point that suicide attacks are all religious (or even predominantly religious) but rather that religion is a powerful mechanism that disables critical thinking to the point where people will actually kill themselves on faith that they will have a heavenly after-life as a martyr.

Agreed, but that's why I said suicide bombers aren't a good example because the underlying motivations aren't actually religious.

Not even in the specific example I presented?

Not even in the specific example I presented?

Specifically not.   That's what Pape's research shows.

I will say that he wasn't able to identify motives in every case, but in the vast majority he did find specific statements the bomber made about why they were doing it.

Just bad wiring which all theocrats exhibit to one degree or another.

I read the paper.   It is focused on political strategy - not what enables individual suicide bombers to kill themselves and clearly not a study of radical Islamic terrorist suicide bombers.   I see no reason to hold that radical Islamic terrorist suicide bombers (the individuals) are not primarily emboldened by their belief that martyrdom brings a heavenly afterlife of glory.

It's actually a 330+ page book not just a paper.    He discussed the underlying rational strategies and objectives of these events, AND he extensively researched the individual bombers and their motives.    Here's a very short review of Pape's book and one by another author:

Neither author believes that religious fervor, poverty, or low education alone explains the phenomenon. Both recognize the importance of the underlying strategic logic that animates the campaigns, of the behavior of the enemy that provides the targets, and of foreign occupation as a motivating factor.

foreignaffairs

Neither author believes that religious fervor, poverty, or low education alone explains the phenomenon.

Generally nothing in life has a simplistic, perfect explanation.     So sure, that statement is acceptable.

I was quite willing to read your reference paper, but not committed to invest time reading a 330+ page book.   

I quoted the key part of your comment to make this note:   my point was not that radical Islamic suicide bombers engage in these acts strictly on a 100% religious basis.   As I noted there are other factors such as the promise of economic stability for their families.   I will include also desperation, ignorance, mental instability, etc.

That established, when a terrorist organization predicated on having their form of Islam dominate the world grooms and deploys individuals as suicide bombers - as religious martyrs who will gain the heavenly blessings of Allah - one finds it logically inconsistent to consider the final cry of 'Allahu Akbar' to not connote religious faith as the predominant enabling factor for this individual's suicidal act of violence.

 Believer

On the highway minding my business
Another car was tryna get by
So I put my foot on the brakes and
My car flipped upside down.

I cried, "Lord have mercy on me
Take the car but save my life"
I walked away no scars, no pain, nothing broken
So now I testify.

Songwriters: ERICA ATKINS-CAMPBELL, ERICA MONIQUE ATKINS-CAMPBELL, TRECINA ATKINS-CAMPBELL, WARRYN CAMPBELL
© Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC,  For non-commercial use only. Data from: LyricFind

This is the kind of witness believers in God deliver to others! Not. . . that!

Are the kids with the same grandparents who raised this lunatic?

This might not be Bakari Warren's first run-in with the law. A woman with the same name/age and very similar features was arrested in 2010 for shoplifting/theft. Here's her official 2010 mug shot and record:

mugshots

I'm really glad that she didn't kill the children.

I hope she had a Jesus didn’t take the wheel rider on her insurance policy.

"Poor' Jesus, can't catch a break.  Okay, how was this so-called "God-intervention" supposed to work anyway? Ms. Bakari Warren, the remarkably dense woman before us, accelerates her car into a T-intersection expecting God to do what exactly? A. Move all obstacles out of her path? B. Brake the car? 

SHE HAS A PERFECTLY GOOD BRAKE PEDAL AND HAND/FOOT BRAKE! How is any of this God's fault. Sorry, it just won't hold up under scrutiny.  Tough crowd!

I am starting to suspect this young woman was trying to do serious (deadly) harm to her children and herself. Who agrees with me?

God works in mysterious ways among the brain dead who believe in mythology and superstition.

 *Yawn.

Yes, I find organized religion rather tedious, boring and mind numbing as well.

Skirting CoC {SP}

Yawn.

Unfounded belief in anything that cannot be proven by empirical means is inherently illogical, despite that fact that the person who believes may be very sincere and the belief may be devout.  

 Religious belief creates delusional people who are illogical. 

Cavernous yawn.  Critical thinking should help you guys discern this article is about an errand woman who nearly killed herself and her 'prides and joys.' It is not a pretext to bash people of faith?

Critical thinking should help you guys discern this article is about an errand woman who nearly killed herself and her 'prides and joys.' It is not a pretext to bash people of faith?

She would not have acted in the dangerous way that she did and put the lives of her children at risk if it wasn't for her illogical religious beliefs.

We are not doing nearly enough to treat mental illness in the US.  This woman is looney tunes and her children are only alive because of the safety of child seats. 

That "we" is the collective use of the word. Those are your earlier thoughts! It is your biases causing you to "weave and bob" at this point. A true rationalist ought not get caught in a pretext of utter bias! Biases expose emotions.

That "we" is the collective use of the word. Those are your earlier thoughts! It is your biases causing you to "weave and bob" at this point. A true rationalist ought not

1.) People have the right to believe as they see fit, even if those beliefs are inherently illogical.

2.) People cannot be forced to take medication and it is very difficult to force someone into mental health treatment, even when they are incarcerated. 

Well, we should still support doing something constructive on our precious board! She has sent up a 'flare'! No one in a right physical or spiritual mind drives a perfectly good car wide awake with their babies in it into an immovable object. No, spiritual person or God in this. How many pastors, church leaders, deacons, and church lay people do you hear and read about 'testing' God in this manner? Who told her to do this?

Use logic: Get this woman so medical help, fast!

Use logic: Get this woman so medical help, fast!

The government cannot force people into mental health care. The best that they can do is a 72-hour hold if she is a threat to herself.  She can refuse medication and counseling while in the hospital.

Her family can suggest that she get help or maybe take her kids away but she has to choose to seek mental health services.

Use this incident as foundational to hopefully declare her a menace to society!  She is a danger to herself and the unaware public. Her child gives the account of her mother (the adult in the car) saying, "Blah, blah, blah. . . ." People usually do this to drown out what someone else is saying which they do not wish or intend to hear. Now what could this child be telling her that this mother does not wish to hear in this moment?

Ms. Bakari Warren has issues relating to this life. God is not in this!

Ms. Bakari Warren has issues relating to this life. God is not in this!

Despite what you want to believe, god is a myth. All of them.

If what you wrote means, God is not in this incident, then I agree with you!

If what you wrote means, God is not in this incident, then I agree with you!

Where is any empirical evidence that proves or even supports the existence of a supernatural religious creator or deity? This statement applies to every other theistic religion so you aren't being persecuted. 

The bible was written by man so it cannot proof of god. It didn't drop out of the sky to be discovered on Mt Sinai.

Your belief or faith is not proof of god. 

I expect that your response will contain any number of these fallacies. A circular logical fallacy, a watchmakers fallacy, argument from ignorance fallacy, an argument from antiquity and probably a popularity fallacy.

Happy Easter or Passover.

Thank you. That's all.

Thank you. That's all.

Why did you change the discussion?

The government cannot force people into mental health care. The best that they can do is a 72-hour hold if she is a threat to herself.  She can refuse medication and counseling while in the hospital.

That's true. It's not illegal to be mentally ill or many people would be back in the old mental hospitals who didn't need to be (like me). Unfortunately the downside is that a lot of the people who really do need help were released during the shutdown of all of the old hospitals back in the 1970's. I don't know what the right balance is because the vast majority of the mentally ill are high functioning if medicated and attending therapy (again, like me) so hospitalization is only needed rarely. However some mentally ill people, who have the right, refuse any services at all and end up on the streets as homeless, many of them Veterans.

I think one of the differences is a support system. I am lucky because my wife has been a great supporter for me and her being a (now retired) Psychiatric RN helps. Then again a lot of the mentally ill Veterans come back to families who are supportive, though I am not sure how good mental health services are for Veterans these days, especially ones who have slipped out on to the streets.

I seem to remember you mentioning this issue in your life before, and I so appreciate you for speaking up. Kudos to your remarks here and now.

Because this discussion ought to be about a woman arrested for crime cruelty "issues" for which she needs earthly attention. The mere exclamation of "God will keep you safe." should not be used as pretext to rep up a full-blown bash believers 'sortie.' Critical-thinkers know to stick with the facts and to follow the trail of evidences . . . .

Anybody can say any thing they wish and make God a scrape-goat since God is Spirit.  Incidentally, the kids did end up SAFE and SOUND at their grandparents!

Because this discussion ought to be about a woman arrested for crime cruelty "issues" for which she needs earthly attention. The mere exclamation of "God will keep you safe." should not be used as pretext to rep up a full-blown bash believers 'sortie.' Critical-thinkers know to stick with the facts and to follow the trail of evidences . . . .

 Why is it that believers attempt to demand that any mention of God is prohibited when a believer commits a horrendous act as a statement of faith or because God told them to do so? Do you think that we don't notice that you are being intellectually dishonest? 

When was the last time that an atheist intentionally drove a car into a wall and said that either Isaac Newton or Dawkins would protect their kids?

You digress. And I will not indulge your flimsy pretexts to start a religious 'sortie' over a woman better served by meds and some serious 'downtime.'

Despite what you want to admit or discuss it is long past time to admit that devout religious belief and adverse mental health are inextricably linked.  You can try to deny it in the same way you do when a gun massacre is committed by a Christian the person is deemed to have poor mental health but when it is committed by others terrorism is automatically claimed.  You can try to bury your head in the sand and pretend that it is happening but it isn't going away.

It is so obvious that it is a cartoon meme.  

goo.gl

In this Age of Medicine people are fairing better and better. Just wait soon you will hear, "There's A Pill for That!"

I'll bet we never see a Farmer's Insurance Commercial about this even though they have seen a lot,  

I'll bet we never see a Farmer's Insurance Commercial about this even though they have seen a lot,

You may owe me a new computer screen after the coffee that I choked on.

glad you liked it!      We are Farmer's  Bum, Bum dedum dedum or however they do that at the end

so did her experiment work for her desired outcome ?

Did she have a plastic Jesus on her dashboard? If so was he facing the road or her?

It's very important to orient the jebus bobblehead in the correct/approved direction to avoid charges of heresy.

Autonomous cars need a Jesus mode for religious conservatives who may seek to have Jesus take the wheel.

Well as George Carlin (who was raised Catholic as I was and nearly every Catholic of our youth had a plastic Jesus on the dashboard of their car) said everyone who has a plastic Jesus on their dashboard always has it facing toward them when they really should have it pointing toward the road where he could be looking out for trouble!

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What an idiot.