A $15 minimum wage would spur job losses but lessen poverty, congressional report finds

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  perrie-halpern  •  3 weeks ago  •  104 comments

By:   Adam Edelman

A $15 minimum wage would spur job losses but lessen poverty, congressional report finds
Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour — a proposal supported by President Joe Biden — would result in the loss of 1.4 million jobs, but would bring nearly 1 million people out of poverty over the next four years, a government study released Monday found.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour — a proposal supported by President Joe Biden — would result in the loss of 1.4 million jobs, but would bring nearly 1 million people out of poverty over the next four years, a government study released Monday found.

The study, conducted by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO), also found that increasing the minimum wage would raise the cumulative budget deficit from 2021 to 2023 by $54 billion and would drive inflation, resulting in higher prices for goods and services.

The CBO evaluated a proposal that would gradually increase the minimum wage, reaching $15 an hour by 2025.

Once fully implemented, the CBO concluded "17 million workers whose wages would otherwise be below $15 per hour would be directly affected, and many of the 10 million workers whose wages would otherwise be slightly above that wage rate would also be affected."

The report found, as a result of the minimum wage increase, 1.4 million workers would be without a job compared to scenarios where there was no change.

"And the number of people in poverty would be reduced by 0.9 million," the report concluded.

Biden has called for raising the minimum wage, which has been set at $7.25 since 2009, to $15 an hour over the next four years. Last month, just days after being sworn in, he signed an executive order requiring that everyone working for the federal government be paid a minimum of $15 an hour.

The White House did not address the CBO report at a press briefing on Monday.

Raising the minimum wage for all workers to $15 an hour has been a rallying cry of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. Biden included the proposal in his broad $1.9 trillion Covid relief package.

The proposal, however, faces opposition from Republicans.

Democrats are moving toward passing the coronavirus relief package using budget reconciliation, a process that would allow Congress to approve the proposal with only a simple majority, and therefore, no Republican support.

However, the rules of reconciliation may prevent the increased minimum wage from being included.

"I put it in, but I don't think it's going to survive," Biden told CBS in an interview last week.

At a press briefing Monday, however, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki said that Biden "remains firmly committed to raising the minimum wage to $15" but suggested the administration was waiting for input from the Senate parliamentarian on whether a minimum wage increase could be passed via reconciliation.

"We'll see what the parliamentarian decides, and then we'll see what additional options are," she said.


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MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
1  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)    3 weeks ago

If "Bill McBurger-flipper" and "Suzie McCannot count change" at the counter / window are making $15 / hour, it'll be more expensive for my family of 5 to "dine" at McDonald's than it would be for us to get food from Outback Steakhouse! I'm being serious here. Last McD's order for the 5 of us was $48. The last BK order for the 5 of us was $53. The last pizza order we had was $57. The last Jimmy John's order we had was $65. The last restaurant order for all 5 of us was $74. KFC came in 2nd least expensive at $44 (Door Dash delivery, so tip included). Least expensive order... Of course was Taco Bell (always has been the least expensive) at $38.

Having 3 teens makes for very expensive take-out / drive-thru. Hence, why we usually make something for dinner. ;) I couldn't imagine how expensive it will be when minimum wage goes from $9.50 / hr to $15 / hr!

 
 
 
Tessylo
PhD Principal
1.1  Tessylo  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1    3 weeks ago

It's always more expensive when you order out because of the charges plus tips.  It wouldn't be more expensive to 'dine' at a fast food joint than it would from Outback Steakhouse.  That's pretty foolish.    

A $15 minimum wage isn't going to hurt your pocket book.  

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
1.1.1  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Tessylo @1.1    3 weeks ago
It's always more expensive when you order out because of the charges plus tips.

I understand that part. I'm showing that when I order from the various fast food places that the difference between the "restaurant" food was not a big difference in cost. Hell, between JJs and an order from a "sit-down" type restaurant was only $9. There used to be a much larger cost gap between a sit-down type restaurant and a fast food place. The wait-staff minimum wage vs. regular minimum wage is vastly different, because of "tip-able wage" difference, which is completely up to the patron(s). Let's face it... not all patrons to restaurants tip very well. My husband and I tip $15% if the service was shitty. We tip 20% if it's adequate, but not over the top. We tip 25-30% for excellent service. Hell, I've tipped upwards of 35-40% for beyond excellent service.

Jurisdiction Basic Combined Cash & Tip Minimum Wage Rate Minimum Cash Wage   1
Maine $12.15 $6.08
Maryland $11.00 $3.63
Massachusetts $13.50 $5.55
Michigan $9.65 $3.67

NOTE: I live in MI. The difference in those wages is just shy of $6 / hour. In the others listed, it's greater than $6 / hour difference. 

Therefore, unless there's a large increase on wait-staff wages to compare to the $5.35 increase to standard minimum wage, eating at a fast food restaurant may very will meet or exceed the cost of eating at a sit-down type restaurant for a multiple person household. When wages increase, a business must recover that cost by increasing the cost of the product they're selling. That's as basic as it gets in regard to business management. 

A great article that reflects the math:

Quote from that article:

According to a 2014 report from The Heritage Foundation, if fast food restaurants were to raise the minimum wage for workers to $15 an hour, the restaurants’ total costs would increase by about 15 percent. What does this mean for menu prices? Prices would have to increase by approximately 15 percent as well. The price increase doesn’t stop there, though; if sales decrease by 14 percent, the average fast food joint would likely have to raise its prices by a whopping 38 percent.

So, yes an increase in minimum wage would hurt my pocket book by 15-38% (rough estimates based on potential change in sales increase / decrease).

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
1.1.2  JaneDoe  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1.1.1    3 weeks ago
So, yes an increase in minimum wage would hurt my pocket book by 15-38% (rough estimates based on potential change in sales increase / decrease).


Your comment was clear and easily understood by those with smarts, common sense, wit, and intelligence.  

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
PhD Guide
1.1.3  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1.1.1    3 weeks ago
So, yes an increase in minimum wage would hurt my pocket book by 15-38%

Yet not increasing the minimum wage hurts the pocket books of workers by over 30%. The minimum wage in 1968, when adjusted for inflation, was 31% higher than todays minimum wage. In just the last 10 years the minimum wage is worth 17% less than it was in 2009.

So basically, you should be complaining about how the value of your dollar has fallen which is why things cost so much more, not because the workers are getting paid a decent wage.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
1.1.4  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @1.1.3    3 weeks ago

So basically, you should be complaining about how the value of your dollar has fallen which is why things cost so much more, not because the workers are getting paid a decent wage.

That may be true, but companies will still recover their losses by passing it onto the consumer [largest consumers being the MIDDLE CLASS].

 
 
 
Texan1211
PhD Principal
1.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1.1.4    3 weeks ago
That may be true, but companies will still recover their losses by passing it onto the consumer [largest consumers being the MIDDLE CLASS].

Of course restaurant companies will have to raise prices substantially.

The average profit for restaurants in America is only 3-5%. Some make as much as 15%, but not many.

$15 per hour will kill many of them.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
PhD Guide
1.1.6  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1.1.4    3 weeks ago
That may be true, but companies will still recover their losses by passing it onto the consumer

The workers without any pay increase are steadily making less and less, how is the company that hires them losing money? The fact is they are gaining the same work for less and less money, they are profiting off the workers not being paid a fair wage. Prices have risen dramatically over the last decade yet the wages have not, yet now as consumers we're supposed to just blame workers and accept they should just make less and less for the same work so we don't have to pay fair prices for goods and services? Is it okay as long as the companies still make their desired profits and consumers get the products on the cheap? Are we really going to abandon workers to third world wages as long as we have a higher paying job than these minimum wage workers?

The least we could do is tie their wages to inflation as the product prices are often tied. Yes, fast food has gotten more expensive yet the minimum wage hasn't risen in over a decade, so do we punish the minimum wage worker and just accept they are getting paid 17% less than they were a decade ago all so we don't see a 2% increase in product prices? Are we as a nation that fucking self-centered and greedy?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
PhD Guide
1.1.7  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.5    3 weeks ago
The average profit for restaurants in America is only 3-5%. Some make as much as 15%, but not many. $15 per hour will kill many of them.

Most restaurants have tip wage workers and pay just $2.13 an hour and if a $15 minimum wage is adopted they still won't have to pay their wait staff $15 an hour but likely something around $4 an hour plus tips. This is not a restaurant killer. The Corona virus was the real restaurant killer and we've seen thousands and thousands of them close. And while this has been horrible for them, it is also creating a lot of opportunity for the future as new restaurants will fill those voids whether we have a $15 minimum wage or not.

Also, food prices going up have been a large part of increased fast food prices which have gone up dramatically over the last decade, yet the minimum wage workers doing the same job they were a decade ago are getting paid 17% less since their dollars are worth less and they've had no increase to match inflation. They're humans too you know, and they have to eat and pay these increased food costs, but now they have to do it with 17% of their budget cut when they were already working for peanuts. Fuck self centered pricks who scream about having to pay $5 for a burger and blame the minimum wage worker. You don't see them screaming at the rancher who is charging more for the beef do you? Of course not, don't you dare blame the ranchers or other food producers, that's just inflation so it's okay, but when it comes to the guy running the register apparently it's okay to screw them over and make sure they don't get a raise so you can have a cheaper lunch.

 
 
 
Tessylo
PhD Principal
1.1.8  Tessylo  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1.1.1    3 weeks ago

I don't trust the Heritage Foundation's information.  So I don't trust that quote at all.  I appreciate all the information you have provided but I take it with a grain of salt, anything that comes from the Heritage Foundation. 

I just don't see it effecting the consumer's wallet/pocketbook like you say.  Not at all.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
PhD Principal
1.1.10  Tessylo  replied to  JaneDoe @1.1.2    3 weeks ago
"Your comment was clear and easily understood by those with smarts, common sense, wit, and intelligence."

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Tessylo
PhD Principal
1.1.11  Tessylo  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @1.1.7    3 weeks ago
"Most restaurants have tip wage workers and pay just $2.13 an hour and if a $15 minimum wage is adopted they still won't have to pay their wait staff $15 an hour but likely something around $4 an hour plus tips. This is not a restaurant killer. The Corona virus was the real restaurant killer and we've seen thousands and thousands of them close. And while this has been horrible for them, it is also creating a lot of opportunity for the future as new restaurants will fill those voids whether we have a $15 minimum wage or not.

Also, food prices going up have been a large part of increased fast food prices which have gone up dramatically over the last decade, yet the minimum wage workers doing the same job they were a decade ago are getting paid 17% less since their dollars are worth less and they've had no increase to match inflation. They're humans too you know, and they have to eat and pay these increased food costs, but now they have to do it with 17% of their budget cut when they were already working for peanuts. Fuck self centered pricks who scream about having to pay $5 for a burger and blame the minimum wage worker. You don't see them screaming at the rancher who is charging more for the beef do you? Of course not, don't you dare blame the ranchers or other food producers, that's just inflation so it's okay, but when it comes to the guy running the register apparently it's okay to screw them over and make sure they don't get a raise so you can have a cheaper lunch."

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Thank you!!!!  You always get right to the 'heart' of things.  With facts and heart!

Goddamn those minimum wage workers wanting a living wage!!!!!!!!
 
 
 
Texan1211
PhD Principal
1.1.12  Texan1211  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @1.1.7    3 weeks ago

some restaurants don't have tipped workers, and tipped workers only make up a fraction of overall labor costs.

I know ,  i have worked in restaurants for 40 years. so please don't tell me about their financials.

 
 
 
Tessylo
PhD Principal
1.1.14  Tessylo  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.12    3 weeks ago

Waitress?

 
 
 
Texan1211
PhD Principal
1.1.16  Texan1211  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.14    3 weeks ago

oh. still haven't figured out Male and female stuff yet?

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
1.1.17  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @1.1.6    2 weeks ago
Prices have risen dramatically over the last decade yet the wages have not, yet now as consumers we're supposed to just blame workers and accept they should just make less and less for the same work so we don't have to pay fair prices for goods and services?

There's most certainly many other factors that cause prices to increase, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the company is making larger profits either. 

The least we could do is tie their wages to inflation as the product prices are often tied.

I agree, and inflation is an average of 3% per year.

...so do we punish the minimum wage worker...

No, but I would like to ask you a couple serious questions (not being facetious or snarky). What are minimum wage jobs designed to do, in your opinion? For further clarification, are minimum wage jobs supposed to sustain a comfortable life for a family of 4? Moreover, do you believe that minimum wage should be the same dollars / hour across the entire country or based on that locale's cost of living? Lastly, what do you think about the suggestion that there should be more education incentives for those in minimum wage situations rather than continually increasing the minimum wage?

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
1.1.18  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.11    2 weeks ago

So, in your opinion, is a minimum wage job supposed to support a family of 4? 

 
 
 
Tessylo
PhD Principal
1.1.19  Tessylo  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1.1.18    2 weeks ago
"So, in your opinion, is a minimum wage job supposed to support a family of 4?"
What a foolish question.  

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
1.1.20  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.19    2 weeks ago

Why is that a foolish question? In Southeast MI, a single person without dependents, $12 / hour is considered a middle-class wage. However, add a single dependent onto that, it's considered a lower middle-class and adding a second dependent would make that a lower-class wage.

 
 
 
Tessylo
PhD Principal
1.1.21  Tessylo  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1.1.20    2 weeks ago

Because it is.  A single person could reasonably support themselves at $15.00 an hour, I imagine, but not a family of four, which is why I believe that's a foolish question.  

The question is kind of odd also, why would anyone think you could support a family of four on $15.00 an hour?

Did anyone, did I, suggest that you could support/that it's supposed to support a family of four on $15.00 an hour?

It's odd, out there, foolish.  

I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative.  

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
1.1.22  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.21    2 weeks ago
A single person could reasonably support themselves at $15.00 an hour, I imagine, but not a family of four, which is why I believe that's a foolish question.  

I'm simply trying to clarify what everyone's definition is of a "livable wage."

The question is kind of odd also, why would anyone think you could support a family of four on $15.00 an hour?

It depends on the location in the US. Someone in the UP of MI could support a family of 4 on $15.00 an hour.

Did anyone, did I, suggest that you could support/that it's supposed to support a family of four on $15.00 an hour?

No. Again, I was trying to get an understanding of your definition of livable wage.

 
 
 
Tessylo
PhD Principal
1.1.23  Tessylo  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1.1.22    2 weeks ago

I just don't see the connections you're attempting to make.  It's confusing, to me, and the more you try to 'clarify' the more confusing it is, I admit, to me.  .  I'm just really not in the mood. . . to continue to go around and and around and around about it.  I've said how I feel and I'm moving on now.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
PhD Principal
1.1.24  Texan1211  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1.1.22    2 weeks ago

a living wage is whatever they were told it was.

 
 
 
Tessylo
PhD Principal
1.1.25  Tessylo  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.24    2 weeks ago

What took you so long?

 
 
 
Texan1211
PhD Principal
1.1.26  Texan1211  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.25    2 weeks ago

oh, I had that shit figured out a LONG time ago!

 
 
 
Trotsky's Spectre
Freshman Quiet
1.1.27  Trotsky's Spectre  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @1.1.7    2 weeks ago

These people are not exactly paying their mortgage with their restaurant earnings. I never tip under 20% and if I like what I see, I go higher. I hope you will do likewise.

We don't have a corner on self-centeredness and greedy; but as I see it, Capitalism does acerbate those qualities. Somewhat related, when the wealthiest individuals [Bezos, Musk, et. al.] increase their worth by many scores of billions while the working class is served a diet of poverty and pandemic death to make their wealth -- I find that beyond obscene; it is an outrage.

 
 
 
Kathleen
PhD Principal
1.2  Kathleen  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1    3 weeks ago

Tell me about it. Fast food is becoming more expensive. We could go to a decent diner and get a better meal even with a nice tip and just pay a bit more. 

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
1.2.1  JaneDoe  replied to  Kathleen @1.2    3 weeks ago

We have a few diners near us and their prices are very reasonable. 

 
 
 
zuksam
Sophomore Silent
1.2.2  zuksam  replied to  Kathleen @1.2    3 weeks ago

I buy the two for five whoppers with no cheese, no drink, no fries, so it's 5.40.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
1.2.3  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  zuksam @1.2.2    3 weeks ago

Multiply that by 6, because these damn kids eat more than just two whoppers! jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif I'll never forget when I was 16 and working at BK, they'd have the $.99 Whopper special... that was when minimum wage was $5.15 / hr. in MI.

 
 
 
Kathleen
PhD Principal
1.2.4  Kathleen  replied to  zuksam @1.2.2    3 weeks ago

There ya go... add some chips and have your own soda at home.

 
 
 
zuksam
Sophomore Silent
1.3  zuksam  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @1    3 weeks ago
Having 3 teens makes for very expensive take-out

There's a silver lining though if your three teens got jobs making 15 bucks an hour you might not have to buy all their crap. Hell they might even take you out to eat (wishful thinking).

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
1.3.1  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  zuksam @1.3    3 weeks ago

My youngest isn't technically a teen until July 31 this year... he'll be 13. Can't legally send my 13 year old to work.

As for the other two, my daughter is 17 and my daughter's boyfriend is 19... my daughter has applied to many places and never received a call. Most places around our house won't hire someone under 18... especially without having a driver's license and a car of their own. Daughter's boyfriend (the "adopted one") has been helping my son with his school work; I'm working from home, my son is doing all online school this year, and the adopted one is making sure my son is doing what he needs to do while I'm working.

Moreover, while places will hire him, he still doesn't have a license or transportation. I don't have the money to buy two cars for two teens right now. I have to take the adopted one into the Secretary of State to sign up for an "adult driver's permit", find the time to teach him how to drive within 30 days, and then get him back to the SoS for the road and written tests. The SoS closes long before I'm done with work. Makes things a bit difficult. It took us almost a year to get his birth certificate so we COULD get him an adult driver's permit. I don't know if they'll require a "proof of residence" or not, but he doesn't really have any proof that he lives with us. He's not a minor, but doesn't receive mail either. It's far more complicated than most people think. It's certainly not like it was when I got my license either. They now have to have X number of hours in X number of days and in X types of conditions... and on job applications, they ask, "Do you have your own transportation"? 

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
1.3.2  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  zuksam @1.3    3 weeks ago
Hell they might even take you out to eat (wishful thinking).

Actually they probably would. They're all very sweet. My son is really good at saving money and from birthday, allowance ($5 / wk.), Christmas, etc. he has saved nearly $500... AFTER he bought himself an X-box One. He has bought pizza for everyone simply because HE wanted pizza. jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg

My daughter had gift cards for TJ Maxx and she told me to pick out a sweater and she paid for it.

The adopted one bought me a wooden Sudoku puzzle [one where you lay out based on the booklet with it] so I didn't have to keep buying paper Sudoku books.

So, I have a really good bunch here. 

The other thing is... the adopted one's youngest sister wants to emancipate herself [their mom is a real piece of work] and we already told her she's got a place to stay. Currently, she's 15. Hell, she's at our house more often than her own as it is... she's here right now. We have a full house and it costs a lot to feed everyone. jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif I jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg Aldi and the Salvation Army resale store.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Senior Participates
2  Greg Jones    3 weeks ago

Higher wages = less employees, fewer hours, and higher prices.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
PhD Principal
2.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  Greg Jones @2    3 weeks ago

What did the CBO say?

It would help millions and also put millions out of work:

"Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour — a proposal supported by President Joe Biden — would result in the loss of 1.4 million jobs, but would bring nearly 1 million people out of poverty over the next four years,  a government study released Monday found.

The study, conducted by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO), also found that increasing the minimum wage would raise the cumulative budget deficit from 2021 to 2023 by $54 billion and would drive inflation, resulting in higher prices for goods and services."

 
 
 
Ozzwald
PhD Quiet
2.2  Ozzwald  replied to  Greg Jones @2    3 weeks ago
Higher wages = less employees, fewer hours, and higher prices.

How has that claim worked out every other time minimum wage went up?  Hmmmm?

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Senior Participates
2.2.1  Greg Jones  replied to  Ozzwald @2.2    3 weeks ago
Higher wages = less employees, fewer hours, and higher prices.

It has always resulted in: Higher wages = less employees, fewer hours, and higher prices.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
PhD Quiet
2.2.2  Ozzwald  replied to  Greg Jones @2.2.1    3 weeks ago
It has always resulted in: Higher wages = less employees, fewer hours, and higher prices.

So you are claiming that there are fewer full time employees in the job market at any time after July 24, 2009?

 
 
 
gooseisgone
Senior Quiet
2.2.3  gooseisgone  replied to  Ozzwald @2.2.2    3 weeks ago
So you are claiming that there are fewer full time employees in the job market at any time after July 24, 2009?

Did the minimum wage go to $15.00 an hour in 7/2009, if it didn't what point are you trying to make. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
PhD Quiet
2.2.4  Ozzwald  replied to  gooseisgone @2.2.3    3 weeks ago
Did the minimum wage go to $15.00 an hour in 7/2009, if it didn't what point are you trying to make.

Another strawman argument.  You guys all try the same crap....

To quote Greg,

"Higher wages = less employees, fewer hours, and higher prices."

Wages went up in 2009, so if Greg is telling the truth, we have always had a lower number of full time employees after 2009, than before.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
2.2.5  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Ozzwald @2.2.4    2 weeks ago

Wages went up in 2009, so if Greg is telling the truth, we have always had a lower number of full time employees after 2009, than before.

In which states? Because we're discussing minimum wages, yes?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
PhD Quiet
2.2.6  Ozzwald  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @2.2.5    2 weeks ago
In which states? Because we're discussing minimum wages, yes?

Another strawman...<sigh>

His statement was all inclusive, meaning all states.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
2.2.7  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Ozzwald @2.2.6    2 weeks ago

I was asking a legitimate question. Because ALL states do not have the same minimum wage. So, considering that information, how is that strawman again?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
PhD Quiet
2.2.8  Ozzwald  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @2.2.7    2 weeks ago
So, considering that information, how is that strawman again?

You have to follow the thread. 

Greg's claim was universal, it was not being broken down per state, county, or city.  When you try to break it down as such, you are trying to get me to defend something I never claimed.  Hence, strawman.

While examining the impact of minimum wage increases based on state, county, or city is a legitimate question, it is not something that is being addressed on this thread.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
2.2.9  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Ozzwald @2.2.8    2 weeks ago

Okay. You win. Do you feel better now?

I was just asking a question and looking for a simple answer and you turned it into something completely different... so, you win. Have a lovely day.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
PhD Quiet
2.2.10  Ozzwald  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @2.2.9    2 weeks ago
I was just asking a question and looking for a simple answer and you turned it into something completely different.

It's not a "simple" question, if you want to know the answer, do your own research.

And no, I didn't turn it into something "different", I explained why it wasn't the topic we were discussing.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
2.2.11  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Ozzwald @2.2.10    2 weeks ago
It's not a "simple" question, if you want to know the answer, do your own research.

I have. 

I already said that you win. So again, have a lovely day.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
PhD Quiet
2.2.12  Ozzwald  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @2.2.11    2 weeks ago
I have. 

Outstanding.  Please elucidate us then.

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Participates
3  evilgenius    3 weeks ago

There will be no minimum wage increase in this relief bill. None of the Republicans will vote for it and enough Dems oppose it to kill it. It was my understanding it would have only apply to federal workers anyway.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Guide
3.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  evilgenius @3    3 weeks ago

He took care of that with the executive order. The rest of the workforce is in his $1.9T relief package.

President Joe Biden is expected to sign an executive order on Friday aimed at raising the minimum wage for federal contractors to $15 dollars an hour. It’s the first step the Biden administration is taking to make good on a campaign promise to raise the United States’ minimum wage—and without Congress’ help, it may be one of the only  steps the president can take to raise wages.

The order directs agencies to review their workforce and lay out steps to increase pay to anyone earning under $15 an hour. It also lays the groundwork for a second executive order, expected within the first 100 days of Biden’s administration, that will raise the minimum wage to that amount for all federal workers and contractors.

Biden had been an early and enthusiastic supporter of raising the minimum wage to $15 for all workers—not just those employed by the federal government—during the 2020 campaign. But he can’t do that without Congress, explains Heidi Shierholz, senior economist at the Economic Policy Institute. His proposed $1.9 trillion economic relief package includes a provision raising the wage for all US workers to $15 an hour, including those who currently earn the federal minimum wage of just $7.25 an hour

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
3.1.1  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.1    3 weeks ago

So... here's to hoping Congress votes against that drastic of an increase.

However, Gov. Whitmer will probably be all for MI increasing min. wages to $15 / hr.

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Participates
3.1.2  evilgenius  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.1    3 weeks ago
He took care of that with the executive order. The rest of the workforce is in his $1.9T relief package.

Thanks, Jim. It's been a long week and we're only starting Wednesday. HA!

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Participates
3.1.3  Hallux  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.1    3 weeks ago

You read 'motherjones'? Yikes, what's this world coming to?

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Guide
3.1.4  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Hallux @3.1.3    3 weeks ago

Nope but in searching for the story, I thought I would save our friends here the bandwidth needed to refute the story due to the source. They cannot HONESTLY discount Mother Jones as a source any more than they would MSNBC, Salon, or Vox.

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
4  JaneDoe    3 weeks ago

Florida passed amendment 2 in November. The minimum wage will increase to $15 an hour by 2026. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Guide
4.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JaneDoe @4    3 weeks ago
The minimum wage will increase to $15 an hour by 2026

It's the old "frog in the pot of water" thing. Slowly raise the temperature (minimum wage) and it won't know it is going to boil to death (affect prices across the board). 

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
4.1.1  JaneDoe  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1    3 weeks ago

Yes sir, there is no way it doesn’t cause all prices for goods and services to rise.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.2  JohnRussell  replied to  JaneDoe @4.1.1    3 weeks ago

Yes or no. Should the minimum wage keep up with inflation and gains in productivity made by the economy ? 

When the economy increases, should everyone gain, or just managers and owners? 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.3  JohnRussell  replied to  JaneDoe @4.1.1    3 weeks ago

If you compare the average salary in 1970 , $6,186, to 2020's average salary $49,874, the increase is 8.06 times. 

The minimum wage in 1970 was 1.60, so that times the 8.06 increase is $ 12.90.   That should be the bare minimum minimum wage.    The national minimum wage is $7.25 right now. And it hasnt been raised in 11 years. 

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
4.1.4  JaneDoe  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.2    3 weeks ago

Yes or no, do you think the companies will take the hit or pass it on to the consumer?

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
4.1.5  JaneDoe  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.3    3 weeks ago

Where did I say that there should be no increase in minimum wage? I only stated that prices will increase for consumers. Do you think they won’t?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.6  JohnRussell  replied to  JaneDoe @4.1.5    3 weeks ago

Wages on average have risen  X 8.06 in the past 50 years. The minimum wage has risen  X 4.53 in the past 50 years, which is little more than half as much as the average. I'm sure that doesn't sound fair to you.  If prices rise a little prices rise. 

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
4.1.7  JaneDoe  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.6    3 weeks ago
I'm sure that doesn't sound fair to you

One more time John. Where did I say that minimum wage should not be increased?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.1.8  JohnRussell  replied to  JaneDoe @4.1.7    3 weeks ago

I dont think I said that you said the minimum wage shouldnt be increased. You said prices will go up. Should prices going up impact a rise in the minimum wage? 

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
4.1.9  JaneDoe  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.8    3 weeks ago
Should prices going up impact a rise in the minimum wage? 

John I am in favor of a minimum wage increase. I don’t think it should go from $7.25 to $15. That will cause prices to rise more then a little. It is my opinion that we don’t wait 11 years and try to increase it all at once. I think that hurts the very people who get that raise, because they will pay more for goods and services which basically wipes out the raise they received.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1.10  Kavika   replied to  JaneDoe @4.1.9    3 weeks ago

I believe that the proposal is for it to go up over 4 years to $15.00.

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
4.1.11  JaneDoe  replied to  Kavika @4.1.10    3 weeks ago

Thank you for the info.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
4.1.12  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.3    3 weeks ago
The national minimum wage is $7.25 right now.

Yes, that's the average between 50 US states. However, the average does not reflect total reality. In MI, the minimum wage is currently $9.65. According to the following, it's been rising far more often than it used to; hell, from 1998 - 2007 the minimum wage stayed the same. Almost a decade.  From 1981 - 1997 it shows as remaining the same. That's 16 years and that was only a $1.80 once the increase occurred. Wages under $50,000 / year, but over minimum wage remain virtually the same in many instances (automotive companies are famous for not doling out raises for several years - see last paragraph). It's logical to assume that at some point, the middle-class will be wiped out in some areas.

$15 / hr. is a yearly gross income of $31,200 (your example of national average of min. wage or what it should be at $12.90 / hr. is a yearly gross salary of $26,832). After deductions (average is 25%) and assuming a 40 hour work week @ $15 / hr. = $23,400 annual net [$1950 monthly net]. After deductions as previously stated and assuming 40 hour work week @12.90 / hr. = $20,124 annual net [$1677 monthly net]. In Detroit Metro Area, making $15 / hr. as a single person without dependents is considered middle-class now. Hell, at $12.90 / hr., single without dependents is considered middle-class in the Detroit Metro Area.

Source:

I understand that this income does not cover expenses the same way in every state. For example, $15 / hr. in metro areas throughout California likely means poverty.

I'm not saying that minimum wage shouldn't increase, but shouldn't there be something for those that are above minimum wage, but not making much more? I was making $18 / hr. for several years with two dependents. That's considered poverty according to the link I provided above.

The automotive companies in Southeast MI, are pretty stingy with wage increases... most of the time, you're laid off before any merit raise can be given. I went 6 years without a raise ($23 / hr.) and then had to take a job that paid less ($18 / hr.) for two years before I got my degree in my 30s (in student loan debt for $55,000) just to break $50,000 / year gross in a different company. 

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
Professor Expert
4.1.13  FLYNAVY1  replied to  JaneDoe @4.1.4    3 weeks ago

It will get passed on to the consumer....

Manufacturers have been automating things based upon ROI for decades.  Boosting the minimum wage will only provide an easier justification to automate something that was at a break-even at the current minimum wage.  Job losses under these circumstances are inevitable.

I put this link to a video out every so often as it depicts precisely what this manufacturing engineer has experienced over the last 30 years, and what I see is coming at us down the road.

Humans Need Not Apply - Bing video

The question of it all is where is the break point to where x-number of people can't afford to purchase y-number of products sold by manufacturers simply because they don't have jobs that earn z-amount of income?

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
4.1.14  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @4.1.13    3 weeks ago

jrSmiley_97_smiley_image.gif OMG! We agree on something FN1! WOO HOO! A day to mark down. jrSmiley_82_smiley_image.gif

Thanks for the video.

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
Professor Expert
4.1.15  FLYNAVY1  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @4.1.14    3 weeks ago

We've agreed more often than no Ahyoka!

 
 
 
bbl-1
PhD Quiet
4.1.16  bbl-1  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @4.1.13    2 weeks ago

"it will get passed on to the consumer."  Your words.

I do not disagree----But-----the minimum wage has not increased for quite a while-----So-----I wish someone would explain to me why an ordinary 40 gal. residential water heater cost around $200 in 1990 and now cost $600+ in 2021.  The increase sure as heck can't be for labor costs--------especially when the items are supposedly less expensive by being made offshore.  

Does anyone understand why I asked the question and why I am not sure if I agree with the premise of the article?

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
4.1.17  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  bbl-1 @4.1.16    2 weeks ago
-the minimum wage has not increased for quite a while

Depends on the state.

And where do you shop for a HWT? 

In case you don't feel like clicking a link:

512

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
Professor Expert
4.1.18  FLYNAVY1  replied to  bbl-1 @4.1.16    2 weeks ago

Materials, logistics, executive compensation, regulations & certifications...... all of it adds up.

Controls on the heaters have also gotten a bit more complicated, thus more expensive too.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
4.1.19  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @4.1.18    2 weeks ago

Controls on the heaters have also gotten a bit more complicated, thus more expensive too.

Yep. Higher efficiency.

 
 
 
freepress
Freshman Silent
5  freepress    3 weeks ago

I don't think it will result in permanent major job losses at the federal level. As the recovery moves forward those jobs will return. Sometimes the way the information is worded make it a scare tactic. Many private businesses have already raised the minimum wage to that rate. Workers that make more money have more buying power which restores the economy. Aldi stores advertise minimum wages of $12 to 13.50 per hour starting wage so even in the private sector this is not a huge leap. Every corporation in this country should be happy to have more consumers with more money in their pockets to spend because in the long run it all comes back to various companies in consumer spending.

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Participates
5.1  evilgenius  replied to  freepress @5    3 weeks ago

I've been supporting local businesses that have raised wages on their own like Aldi. In a few of local the restaurants that do this I get superior food, awesome wait staff and don't feel like I have to tip. They also locally source their bread, meat and produce which is great for our local family farmers. I even hit up a local distillery that locally source their ingredients.

 
 
 
zuksam
Sophomore Silent
5.2  zuksam  replied to  freepress @5    3 weeks ago

Aldi has a sign now saying 16.00 but that's in the New England.

 
 
 
Kathleen
PhD Principal
6  Kathleen    3 weeks ago

I think it’s a catch 22, everything else will rise. 

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
6.1  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Kathleen @6    3 weeks ago

Right... making that $15 / hr. like $9 / hr. in 2018. No matter what, those making minimum wage (no matter the number) will struggle, especially if he / she / they have dependents.

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Participates
7  Hallux    3 weeks ago

So ... if you double someone's salary from 7.50$ to 15$, just where do you think that extra 7.50$ will go? Under a mattress or straight back into the private economy? Money denies the laws of physics folks, it flows uphill.

 
 
 
FLYNAVY1
Professor Expert
7.1  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Hallux @7    3 weeks ago

Just remember that manufacturers will pass their costs on to the consumers as "push rate inflation".

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Participates
8  evilgenius    3 weeks ago

I think it would be better policy to improve access to education and training than to raise the minimum wage. I was poking around the internet and found I could find any number of studies by real researchers that would support any number of positions on this topic. It seems to be a complex issue with many variables. It looks to me that the lowest end of workers would suffer job loses that don't really recover (as much as 13%), while other job markets take a small hit (around 4%), but in time do mostly recover. 

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
8.1  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  evilgenius @8    3 weeks ago
I think it would be better policy to improve access to education and training than to raise the minimum wage.

I absolutely agree. Sometimes however, people don't seem to want to better their situation. Anyone that can pass a drug screen can apply to a Local Union [at least in Detroit Metro] to be a plumber's or electrician's apprentice with little knowledge. I know a few people that have done it. Get a free education, while getting paid, and after 4 years as an apprentice, get a journeyman's card. I know several people in the trades making 6 figures. The skilled trades are hurting, because the Baby Boomers that filled all of those spots are retiring and there's not enough people getting into the trades to fill those retiree's spots. Most High Schools are still pushing kids into college bound lessons. I'm just grateful that the school district my kids are in still find machine shop, auto shop, electronics, etc. equally important. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
8.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka) @8.1    2 weeks ago

There were always be poor people and the working poor. If everyone in America had a college degree then we would have people with a college degree under the poverty line. It is the nature of capitalism that there will be poor people. 

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
8.1.2  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  JohnRussell @8.1.1    2 weeks ago

People don't need a college degree to have a livable wage career.

 
 
 
jw
Freshman Silent
9  jw    3 weeks ago

In my honest opinion minimum wages should not be set as a default dollar amount by the federal government.   Minimum  wage should be set at the state or even the county level, based on median income for that state or county.  The federal government should set the rate as X% of Median income or however they want to calculate it.   This would more accurately set the base wage at a more realistic local level.  

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
9.1  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  jw @9    2 weeks ago

Agreed. $15 / hour is very different in comparison between San Francisco vs. Detroit [or even a suburb]. Hell, it's even different in comparison between a Detroit suburb and Marquette (just examples of large cities in very different parts of MI). Luce County in the UP of MI wouldn't require nearly the amount to live as Wayne County.

 
 
 
Tessylo
PhD Principal
10  Tessylo    3 weeks ago

No, smartass. . .

 
 
 
bbl-1
PhD Quiet
11  bbl-1    2 weeks ago

Am not sure I agree with the premise of this article although there may be merit with some of its points.

On the other hand there has never been a study as to the cost on the general working population of the salaries/compensation of certain Insurance Executives, Hedge Fund Managers, upper tier Wall Street investors or others in that class------------especially those that shield/hide their monetary values in offshore havens.

Have no problem with people making money as long as they pay the taxes required like the rest of the 99.5%

 
 
 
Texan1211
PhD Principal
11.1  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @11    2 weeks ago

99.5 don't pay income taxes

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
11.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @11.1    2 weeks ago

There are two ways people dont pay any income tax. One is you dont make enough money to fall under the IRS punitive jurisdiction, and the other is you are rich and hire accountants to find you enough loopholes. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
PhD Principal
11.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @11.1.1    2 weeks ago

I will take it that you completely agree with my true statement then.

Great!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
11.1.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @11.1.2    2 weeks ago

What does what you said have to do with anything?  Anyone with a minimum of information knows that 100% of Americans do not pay income tax. The only interesting thing is why. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
PhD Principal
11.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @11.1.3    2 weeks ago

well, maybe you could look at what I replied to and figure it out.

 
 
 
charger 383
PhD Quiet
12  charger 383    2 weeks ago

If minimum wage is $15, workers with skills, certifications and licenses, those who produce more, do the more difficult jobs and have seniority and experience will want and deserve more money. 

It is like pouring more water in a tub, everything will go up  

 
 
 
Gazoo
Freshman Silent
12.1  Gazoo  replied to  charger 383 @12    2 weeks ago

In some parts of the country there are skilled tradesmen that build this country that make in the low 20’s per hour. $15 for flipping burgers or pushing carts pales in comparison. Ridiculous.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
12.1.1  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Gazoo @12.1    2 weeks ago

As a skilled trades apprentice [for plumbing, electrician, or HVAC], they make less than $20 / hour. As a STARTING journeyman [already went through apprenticeship], they make in the low $20 / hour range.

At least in Southeast MI. I've been helping my daughter do some research.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
12.2  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  charger 383 @12    2 weeks ago

Exactly. Why does an over the road semitruck driver make approx. $20 / hour to deliver everything we use / need everyday and the expectation that Bill McBurger-flipper and Suzie McCannot-count change make $15 / hour? How about if we're increasing minimum wage, other wages get similar increases? More specifically those that aren't much more than $15 / hour. I know from personal experience that most prototype mechanics that build and test soon-to-be production vehicles that everyone eventually buys, make $15-$18 / hour. Why would someone choose to bust their ass with that kind of liability on the line for the same amount as working at a drive-thru window? I've done both... working at a drive-thru window is much easier and can be a lot of fun actually. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Junior Principal
13  Nerm_L    2 weeks ago

What we've seen over time is that wages tend to naturally adjust to a floor above the minimum.  A Federally imposed minimum wage only provides a short term benefit.  The Federally imposed minimum wage certainly doesn't have a history of ending poverty or achieving any sort of equity.  The Federal government exerts more influence over poverty with its own fiscal policy than with laws imposed on the private sector.  Fiscal policy grounded in deficit spending inflates the money supply and devalues the currency which has a much larger influence on creating poverty.  

The problem with an imposed minimum wage is it's supply-side economic foundation that requires exploiting consumers.  Success of the policy depends upon consumers providing the money to pay the increased wages.  Private businesses do not have access to a magic supply-side money tree.  The burden of higher compensation packages for both labor and management is born by consumers.

Since a Federal minimum wage has been imposed on the country then increasing and adjusting that minimum by political government becomes inevitable.  First, raising the minimum wage has become a political way to buy votes.  And second, the minimum wage becomes a distraction to divert attention away from how political government creates poverty with fiscal policy.

Unfortunately, raising the minimum wage has become necessary because of political ineptitude.  But that necessity has been caused by political government; not by the private sector and certainly not by consumers.  Make no mistake, consumers will pay the wage increases.  Political government is being charitable with your money.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
13.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Nerm_L @13    2 weeks ago
Success of the policy depends upon consumers providing the money to pay the increased wages.  Private businesses do not have access to a magic supply-side money tree.  The burden of higher compensation packages for both labor and management is born by consumers.

Do consumers pay when managers and executives salaries and compensation are raised by a company? Since, following your logic they do, why do we see little complaint about that from "conservatives", but we see complaint about raising the minimum wage? 

Want the consumers to pay less? Pay the managers stockholders and executives less. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Junior Principal
13.1.1  Nerm_L  replied to  JohnRussell @13.1    2 weeks ago
Do consumers pay when managers and executives salaries and compensation are raised by a company?

Yes, consumers pay managers, executive, and board members compensation packages.  Consumers pay stock dividends, too.  Raising the minimum wage provides the money to make the rich richer.  

That's how supply-side economics works.  Supply-side labor and tax policy can only succeed by exploiting consumers.

Want the consumers to pay less? Pay the managers stockholders and executives less. 

Yes.  But political government is doing nothing to address that.  Political government has chosen to buy votes by being charitable with your money.

 
 
 
MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)
Sophomore Principal
13.2  MsAubrey (aka Ahyoka)  replied to  Nerm_L @13    2 weeks ago
What we've seen over time is that wages tend to naturally adjust to a floor above the minimum.  A Federally imposed minimum wage only provides a short term benefit. 

You said it better than I did. 

 
 
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