A New Day ? (redistribution)

  

Category:  Op/Ed

By:  john-russell  •  one month ago  •  88 comments

A New Day ? (redistribution)


Why are progressives so excited about the 1400 dollar stimulus checks, the extended unemployment benefits, the lowering of the cost of Obamacare, the increased child tax credits , and the (slight) expansion of EITC to apply to single people as well as families? 

Some see this as the foot in the door to universal basic income type payments. There is only one way this will be "real" though. It has to represent a clawing back from the extremely wealthy. In other words it needs to be paid for by the rich. And such programs need to be sustainable. 

This is an "expansion" of the welfare state, but the Democrats have wisely included the middle of the middle class in some of these benefits, families who earn up to 150,000 dollars a year will receive some of the money that is being handed out, albeit less than those lower on the income scale. 

We see our government making an open and concrete step to acknowledge that people in lower classes, the so called "working class" and some in the lower middle class and middle class need more money. 

Of course they should get it by working. But the more money part only comes if it is clawed back from the wealthy. It would be highly preferable to have an economic system where people on the lower to middle ends of the spectrum have higher salaries and those at the top make less. But , short of that, we can get that money from the extremely wealthy through taxation.  That is the next step. 

Our country found out that many many millions of people cannot survive even relatively short periods of no income without massive government help. That is because they don't make enough money. 

The pandemic has brought us to a point where it has become possible to address income and wealth disparities that are way beyond what our society should find acceptable. 

One of the odd assertions about the stimulus payments is that some people are using the money to pay down credit card debt or buy new furniture, or even save it, supposedly proving that they don't "need" the money.  Sorry, people that have a lot of credit card debt "need" the money. That is why they have a lot of credit card debt, because in order to keep up with the Joneses in a completely consumerism driven society they had to use credit cards because they didnt and dont have the cash. Almost all people who can get a credit card will use it to buy a big screen tv , a smartphone, brand name sneakers, brand name groceries, etc, because they is what they see everyone else doing.  Using a stimulus check to pay down credit cards is not an indicator that someone doesnt need the money, it is an indicator that they do. 

This will be an interesting next couple of years.


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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  author  JohnRussell    one month ago

This is the first time since the New Deal perhaps that the government is giving something to the lower classes, after decades of rigging our society to benefit the wealthy. 

 
 
 
Old Hermit
Sophomore Quiet
1.1  Old Hermit  replied to  JohnRussell @1    one month ago
This is the first time since the New Deal perhaps that the government is giving something to the lower classes, after decades of rigging our society to benefit the wealthy.

I thought the way Steve Rattner broke it down the other day was very insightful.

Not sure if it was Rattner or some other talking head that mentioned that the Child tax credit increase in the first year of the relief act will raise will decrease child poverty by something like 20%.  Compare just that one benefit to the Nation in the Relief act and the Vs nothing but debt from the poorly thought out $1.9 trillion tax cut from Trump.

Trump $1.9t tax cut for the rich gets us no major increase in jobs or GDP just a spike in the deficit. 

Biden $1.9t relief for real Americans gets children out of poverty, helps family's pay for basic needs during some hard times, helps small business hang on, helps States pay for the fight against the virus, etc, etc. 

Elections have consequences and one of the most dramatic examples of that can be found by comparing the first signature pieces of legislation passed by Donald Trump and Joe Biden.

In barely an instant, the change in administrations has brought a fundamental change in the philosophy of how government should help people and whom should be helped.

Slide1.jpghttps://stevenrattner.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Slide1-300x225.jpg 300w, 768w" sizes="(max-width: 750px) 100vw, 750px" width="522" height="391" >

President Trump’s massive Tax Cut and Jobs Act was, in reality, simply a trickledown economics nod to the Republican concept of shrinking revenues to shrink government. Its $1.9 trillion of tax benefits was given vastly disproportionately to business and to wealthy individuals . Only 16% of the huge amount went to Americans making less than $75,000 a year. President Biden’s American Rescue Plan focuses on the spending side of the ledger and reinvigorates the belief that government can solve problems by acting in a more muscular fashion. More than 90% of its $1.9 trillion price tag consists of increased spending and more than half of the total cost is aimed at helping individual Americans, particularly those closer to the bottom. (The balance of the ARP is designed to counteract the effects of the pandemic, both directly and by funneling large amounts to state and local governments .)

Perhaps not surprisingly, the TCJA never enjoyed support from American voters. In contrast, the ARP is supported by as many as three-quarters of Americans, according to a Morning Consult poll . (An earlier Morning Consult poll found support for the TCJA at 39% .)

Slide2.jpghttps://stevenrattner.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Slide2-300x225.jpg 300w, 768w" sizes="(max-width: 750px) 100vw, 750px" width="465" height="350" >

Just as striking as the shift from tax cuts to spending increases is the shift from helping the wealthy to helping those more in need. The left hand side of this chart shows that nearly a quarter of the benefits from the ARP will go to Americans in the bottom 20% of the income ladder , compared to just 1% of the TCJA’s individual tax cuts. At the other end, only 11% of the ARP’s benefits are allocated to the top 20%, compared to 65% under the TCJA . And even within the top 20%, the principal benefit – the $1,400 checks – is now completely cut off at $160,000 for a married couple.

Slide3.jpghttps://stevenrattner.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Slide3-300x225.jpg 300w, 768w" sizes="(max-width: 750px) 100vw, 750px" width="470" height="353" >

Perhaps most striking is the impact that the ARP is projected to have on the poverty rate. At present, about 12% of Americans are estimated to be below the poverty line ($26,246 for a family of four ). The ARP would reduce the number of Americans living below the poverty line by a third , a decline of record magnitude and speed . In contrast, as the black oval shows, the TCJA had almost no effect on the number of Americans living in poverty; it merely reduced the poverty rate from 12.8% to 12.5% in 2020.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Old Hermit @1.1    one month ago
Trump $1.9t tax cut for the rich gets us no major increase in jobs or GDP just a spike in the deficit.  Biden $1.9t relief for real Americans gets children out of poverty, helps family's pay for basic needs during some hard times, helps small business hang on, helps States pay for the fight against the virus, etc, etc. 

Excellent . 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.2  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Old Hermit @1.1    one month ago
In barely an instant, the change in administrations has brought a fundamental change in the philosophy of how government should help people and whom should be helped.

Yep, The Divided States of America in a nutshell.

So Fuckin Sad ! 

And WE sit and spin in place as the world moves forward. 

Makes no more since than digging a hole filling it in and digging it out  again.. and again .. and again  .. 

WE were promised UNITY ..   WhereTF is it ?  

Biden ??  

bs......

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.3  author  JohnRussell  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.2    one month ago
Just like its blowing up the dept.

You object to the government helping the people in the lower half of the income and wealth range?  Why is that ? 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.4  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.3    one month ago

I object to spending more than we take in. Just like I do with my own finances. 

Take more from the rich don't give more to the poor.  Our government needs money to run and our kids and their kids should not have to pay for us running our government today for us. 

I think by now John you'd have seen that HOW is important to me. Not just the results.

trump got results he just used really fucked up ways to do it. his HOW SUCKED !! 

Biden promised Unity.. I don't see it.

BTW: Biden didn't promise excuses but he sure did promise Unity.  

I'm waiting..... WTF is it ? 

HOW is this bill UNITY ? 

it's not ! 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.5  author  JohnRussell  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.4    one month ago

Joe Biden believes that economic activity created as a by product of this "giveaway" will pay for it over time. 

But even if it doesn't completely this is still a good step. It is a powerful message for the government to signal it will "give" something to the working class after decades of breaks for the wealthy that have created the greatest wealth inequality we have ever seen. 

Unity?  Unity with Republicans means giving in to them. Biden was not elected to give in to the right. I have no interest in seeing the Democrats compromise with someone like Rand Paul. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.1.6  TᵢG  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.4    one month ago

Unity is not something that will happen overnight.   If Biden can make positive steps away from divisiveness in his four years then I would consider that a success.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.7  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.5    one month ago
Joe Biden believes that economic activity created as a by product of this "giveaway" will pay for it over time.  But even if it doesn't completely this is still a good step.

They all do, every president that has relief bills says and believes that. As our dept grows ever larger and larger. 

We'll see, I still believe all this extra burden on the taxpayers back will backfire on the dems. .. Soon. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.8  author  JohnRussell  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.7    one month ago

the national debt is very overrated as an imminent problem

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.9  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  TᵢG @1.1.6    one month ago
 If Biden can make positive steps away from divisiveness in his four years then I would consider that a success.

IMO:  Biden already blew it. He had his chance, the tone has now been set, it's ALL OUT WAR and Biden set it.

IF Biden would have compromised the pain or gain would have been shared, now it won't and there will be Pain and gain.

Unity would have given us more gain and less pain. 

Now we fight on and little gets done, much of what gets done now likely will be undone later like Biden is undoing things today.

Back and forth comes with division, Forward movement comes from Unity.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.10  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.8    one month ago
the national debt is very overrated as an imminent problem

The national debt is ignored. WTF would happen if you or I did that for year after year ? 

OUCH ! 

The national debt is ignored. ASold as I am , I really don't care. I have no kids to pay this shit anyway....lol 

As what I would call a reasonable American though I do care some. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.11  author  JohnRussell  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.9    one month ago

I find it hard to believe that you think the Republicans have any interest in unity. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.1.12  TᵢG  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.9    one month ago

Biden has almost four years;  a lot can happen in that time (good and bad).

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.13  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.11    one month ago
I find it hard to believe that you think the Republicans have any interest in unity.

John, I have some faith in humanity. I really do believe that America as a country and WE the People  as a people are better off when as the founding fathers designed this constitution that we work as a united states of america to govern ourselves. 

Doing the Hard work of fact finding, debating and compromising in the governing the WE the People. 

The Problem is John, the party with the power to unite has to be the party to start the unification. 

Biden promised that would be the democratic party, 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.14  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  TᵢG @1.1.12    one month ago
Biden has almost four years;  a lot can happen in that time (good and bad)

Well the tone is set for now now, I suppose perhaps there is time to change direction. 

Most probably IT WILL in 2022 now 

I look for this stimulus to usher in enough rebs to take away the balance of power then. 

The chance of Unity, again lost for now ...  sad Although not totally unexpected. Still SAD !

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.15  author  JohnRussell  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.10    one month ago

In theory the national debt is a problem down the road. In reality because America prints its own money and the dollar is world currency the US could keep the debt large indefinitely.  If the national debt ever becomes a crisis for the US there will be so many other things going on that the debt will seem like the least of our troubles. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.1.16  author  JohnRussell  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.13    one month ago

Wealth and income inequality is a far bigger problem for America than the national debt. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.17  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.15    one month ago
In theory the national debt is a problem down the road.

Interest on the National Debt and How It Affects You

The interest on the   national debt   is how much the federal government must pay on outstanding   public debt   each year. The interest on the debt is $378 billion. 1 That's from the  federal budget for fiscal year (FY) 2021 that runs from October 1, 2020, through September 30, 2021.

The public debt is just under $27 trillion in the third quarter of 2020. 2 That's debt owed to individuals, businesses, and foreign central banks. The debt is held in the form of   Treasury bills, notes, and bonds , as well as Treasury Inflation-Protected Securities ( TIPS ),   savings bonds , and other   securities .

The government also owes the Social Security Trust Fund and other federal agencies. That's called intragovernmental debt. It's not part of the public debt and doesn't impact the interest on the debt. That's because it's money the government owes itself. The majority of public debt is   owned by the American people , either through individual investors, the Federal Reserve, or state and local governments. 3

in general, a large debt issued during a high-interest rate environment will create a large interest payment.

Take a look at the chart below to see debt and interest cost trends in recent years, as well as projections into the near future. This information comes from the Fiscal Year 2021 budget proposal. 7 The interest information can be found in Table S-4, including the percent of budget. The 10-year interest rate figures used in these calculations can be found in Table S-9. Public debt is found in Table S-1.
Fiscal Year Interest on the Debt (in billions) Interest Rate on 10-Year Treasury Public Debt (in billions) Percent of Budget
2018 $325 2.9% $15,750 7.9%
2019 $375 2.2% $16,801 8.4%
2020 $376 2.0% $17,881 7.8%
2021 $378 2.2% $18,912 7.8%
2022 $399 2.5% $19,891 8.0%
2023 $428 2.7% $20,688 8.4%
2024 $458 3.0% $21,284 8.8%
2025 $499 3.1% $21,848 9.2%
2026 $543 3.1% $22,362 9.6%
2027 $586 3.1% $22,826 9.9%
2028 $621 3.2% $23,327 10%
2029 $645 3.2% $23,604 10.2%
2030 $665 3.2% $23,892 10%

Yur right John, I'll be dead by then, Charge away ! $$$$$$$

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.18  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.16    one month ago
Wealth and income inequality is a far bigger problem for America than the national debt.

Never said it wasn't John, I stand by what I say about the HOW.

HOW this was handled SUCKS ! Dems will end up paying when they needn't have. 

This relief bill was in no way bipartisan, sadly now there will be consequences. 

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
1.1.19  pat wilson  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.1    one month ago

And most of Biden's relief will go right back into the economy. 

 
 
 
Old Hermit
Sophomore Quiet
1.1.20  Old Hermit  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.4    one month ago
HOW is this bill UNITY ?  

The unity Pres. Biden strove for with  this bill is with the AMERICAN PEOPLE and he and the Democratic Party, have done a dam fine job in achieving that UNITY out in the Country. 

It's true that Pres Biden will rarely get any unity from the "Sedition Backing, Lickspitle's for Trump" party but he'll still keep trying to achive unity for his agenda with the American people.

Polls find most Americans support Biden's COVID-19 stimulus package

WASHINGTON - As congressional Democrats put the finishing touches on the American Rescue Plan — a $1.9 trillion economic relief package — new polls reveal most Americans support the raft of policies

Notably, polls find broad Republican support for the provisions of the stimulus package. Polling by Politico/Morning Consult conducted from March 6-8 finds 59% of Republicans at least somewhat support the $1.9 trillion stimulus package. A Tuesday Pew Research poll also found 41% of Republicans supporting the bill.

A CNN poll released Wednesday finds 61% of Americans overall support the relief package and 66% say it would help the economy in some way. The poll, conducted among 1,009 adults from March 3-8, also found majority support for most of the individual policies included in the bill, including larger tax credits for families at 85%; funding for K-12 schools at 77%; and $350 billion in aid to state and local governments at 59%.

The Politico/Morning Consult poll found 75% of registered voters either strongly or somewhat support the package. A majority likes the scope of the package: 45% of those polled say the bill's provisions offer the right amount of support, while 24% believe it offers too little. The poll found just 21% think the bill offers too much.

The Pew poll similarly found 41% of Americans see the size of the package as about right, while 25% say it is too small. That poll also found 70% of adults support the legislation, including 41% of self-identified Republicans. The poll, conducted among 12,055 adults between March 1-7, also found that 57% of the public believes the Biden administration made a good faith effort to work with Republicans.
 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.21  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Old Hermit @1.1.20    one month ago
That poll also found 70% of adults support the legislation

True, but not in the form it was passed. Biden was the only one that could hold America to his own reunification promise. 

Everyone including Biden had to know that Biden himself was going to have to hold the line on the democratic party. 

Now once again it's one parties way and numbers.

Back and forth we still go. And Now the tone is set for the next 4 years. That  sucks ! 

 
 
 
Gsquared
Sophomore Principal
1.1.22  Gsquared  replied to  Old Hermit @1.1.20    one month ago

I think that your assessment is excellent.  Biden has managed to unite the American people behind his agenda.

I can understand that Steve is hoping to see unity among the political class, and that he believes that will help move the country forward.  However, I do not believe that is achievable.  The Republican Party has staked out a position of non-cooperation.  They did the same thing with President Obama.  For the most part, they do not negotiate in good faith.  No matter what compromises are granted to them, their ultimate position is always rejection.

President Biden and the Democrats should continue to pursue their agenda, which is favored by the American people. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.23  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Gsquared @1.1.22    one month ago
However, I do not believe that is achievable.  The Republican Party has staked out a position of non-cooperation.  They did the same thing with President Obama.  For the most part, they do not negotiate in good faith.  No matter what compromises are granted to them, their ultimate position is always rejection.

Gsquared that's the problem BOTH parties constantly do that. 

I have been both a dem and a reb in the past. Neither party really represents me any longer because Neither party is willing to compromise when they hold the majority of power. ON ANYTHING. 

That attitude is not good for America. I really would like what's best for the country not just to get my way when I can.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.24  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Gsquared @1.1.22    one month ago
President Biden and the Democrats should continue to pursue their agenda, which is favored by the American people.

WOW that sounds so uncomfortably familiar. 

 
 
 
Gsquared
Sophomore Principal
1.1.25  Gsquared  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.21    one month ago

Steve, no matter how many compromises the Democrats grant to the Republicans, in the end, the Republicans will never vote in support of anything that President Biden or the Democrats might support.  The Democrats could agree to everything the Republicans ask for and the Republicans would still vote against it. 

Unfortunately, It is a pipe dream to think that the Republicans will work with the Democrats, except in a few limited circumstances.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Sophomore Principal
1.1.26  Gsquared  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.23    one month ago

If you look at recent history, you will see that the Democrats regularly try to work with the Republicans to achieve compromise solutions, but the Republicans do not operate in the same way.  Under Trump, the Democrats worked with the Republicans and compromised.  Under Obama, the Republicans demanded, and received, lots of compromises from the Democrats, but ultimately, still never received Republican support.  The Republicans are attempting to employ the same tactics now.

When you have one party that is willing to conpromise, and another party that will never support the final version, what do you have?  You have a party that will always act divisively.

Is it your suggestion that the Democrats should accept Republican compromise proposals even though the Republicans will never support and vote for the final version of the legislation, even if it contains their proposals?  Is that unity?

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.27  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Gsquared @1.1.25    one month ago
Unfortunately, It is a pipe dream to think that the Republicans will work with the Democrats, except in a few limited circumstances.

Unfortunately Gsquared you are probably correct. Neither side really wants to work together both just want everything their own way and to Hell with the other half of the people in this nation. 

To me that reality is so damn sad ! I want it to be unity in the United States of America, that is why I vote and why I'm an independent. 

I vote for people to have power not parties.

Someday one party will get so strong we will no longer be a two party system and end up much closer to being a totalitarian system of governing. Like trump wants. 

Imagine IF trump would have held power in the way he tried, inserection and all. One person, one party with too much power is about the scariest thing I can think of. period

In the end compromising is the only true way for WE the people to govern ourselves. Someone has to do it. Biden said he was the one. 

Sadly, I don't see it. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.28  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Gsquared @1.1.26    one month ago
The Republicans are attempting to employ the same tactics now.

Now Biden has power, HE can compromise, HE chose not to. 

Is it your suggestion that the Democrats should accept Republican compromise proposals even though the Republicans will never support and vote for the final version of the legislation, even if it contains their proposals?

That poll also found 70% of adults support the legislation

Gsquared, IF Biden would have compromised some HE could have gotten some republican support.

That would have been a taste of unity and set the tone for the next 4 years. 

....................................................

Many of us are starving for unity in America. Fuck both the right and left fringe wing nuts Sanity resides in the middle anyway. .. 

 
 
 
Thomas
Freshman Guide
1.1.29  Thomas  replied to  Gsquared @1.1.26    one month ago

Just a side note. I was reading through your comments and I ran across a new word, thanks to a typo. The new word is:

Conpromise: The result of bargaining in bad faith.

 
 
 
Thomas
Freshman Guide
1.1.30  Thomas  replied to  Old Hermit @1.1.20    one month ago

As long as he has the backing of the supermajority of the people, he does have a chance of pulling the dialogue back towards the center from the fringes where the most vocal of either wing resides. The trick is to get the volume of the talk to be about substance and policy, instead of the cacophonous maelstrom of absurd and ludicrous charges that are amplified, such as the use of the words "communist" and "evil" to describe a fairly centrist position. 

 
 
 
Gsquared
Sophomore Principal
1.1.31  Gsquared  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.28    one month ago
IF Biden would have compromised some HE could have gotten some republican support.

I just don't believe that he would have gotten any Republican support, no matter what compromises may have been made with them.  The reality is the Republicans would have voted no regardless of any compromise Biden and the Democrats would have agreed to.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.32  Tessylo  replied to  Gsquared @1.1.31    one month ago
"IF Biden would have compromised some HE could have gotten some republican support."

"I just don't believe that he would have gotten any Republican support, no matter what compromises may have been made with them.  The reality is the Republicans would have voted no regardless of any compromise Biden and the Democrats would have agreed to."

You're right.  The republicans will never support anything a Democrat has to offer.  NOT TODAY'S GQP.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Sophomore Principal
1.1.33  Gsquared  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.32    one month ago

Recent history supports my position.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.34  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Gsquared @1.1.31    one month ago
The reality is the Republicans would have voted no regardless of any compromise Biden and the Democrats would have agreed to.

" 70% of adults support the legislation "

Some republicans would have supported a smaller bill. 

.............................................................

" A group of 10 Republican senators met at the White House with President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris Monday, pushing a $618 billion coronavirus relief package that’s far smaller than Biden’s proposed $1.9 trillion bill. After the meeting, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki said President Biden was pushing ahead with more ambitious legislation."

ww.democracynow.org/2021/2/2/headlines/senate_republicans_meet_at_white_house_to_press_far_smaller_coronavirus_relief_bill

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.35  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Tessylo @1.1.32    one month ago
The republicans will never support anything a Democrat has to offer.

" 70% of adults support the legislation "

Some republicans would have supported a smaller bill. 

.............................................................

"  A group of 10 Republican senators met at the White House with President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris Monday, pushing a $618 billion coronavirus relief package that’s far smaller than Biden’s proposed $1.9 trillion bill. After the meeting, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki said President Biden was pushing ahead with more ambitious legislation."

ww.democracynow.org/2021/2/2/headlines/senate_republicans_meet_at_white_house_to_press_far_smaller_coronavirus_relief_bill

 
 
 
Gsquared
Sophomore Principal
1.1.36  Gsquared  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.34    one month ago

Even if the Democrats had accepted the smaller amount proposed by the Republicans, I do not think any Republicans would have supported the final bill.  They would have found excuses for voting against it. 

Several Republican amendments were accepted as part of Obamacare.  How many Republicans voted for Obamacare?  None.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.37  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Gsquared @1.1.36    one month ago
Even if the Democrats had accepted the smaller amount proposed by the Republicans, I do not think any Republicans would have supported the final bill.

" 70% of adults support the legislation "

If dems compromised and No rebs signed on they'd look pretty damn stupid to their constituents some of which I'm sure make up that 70%.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.1.38  sandy-2021492  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.37    one month ago
" 70% of adults support the legislation "

And yet, no Republicans voted for it.  They're not representing their constituents.  They're taking a hard line, against the will of their constituents.  They're not interested in compromise.

 
 
 
Thomas
Freshman Guide
1.1.39  Thomas  replied to  JohnRussell @1.1.5    one month ago
Unity with Republicans means giving in to them.

Here, Here!

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.40  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.38    one month ago
They're not representing their constituents.  They're taking a hard line, against the will of their constituents.  They're not interested in compromise.

That poll also found 70% of adults support the legislation, including 41% of self-identified Republicans.

Sandy not even half of the republicans polled in that poll agreed with the relieve bill as it was passed. 

.......................................................

Republicans wanted a smaller bill. 

Here's what's in the GOP's 'skinny' stimulus bill -- and what's missing

By   Katie Lobosco ,   Tami Luhby   and   Jeanne Sahadi , CNN Updated 10:51 PM ET, Tue September 8, 2020

Republicans also put forth a $1 trillion stimulus bill in July, but it never came to a vote.

GOP Skinny Bill: Would not provide additional assistance to state and local governments.

GOP Skinny Bill: Would not provide more funding but would increase the time window and flexibility for states to utilize the initial $150 billion in funding to cover revenue shortfalls. Currently, those funds can only be used for coronavirus-related expenses.

w.cnn.com/2020/09/08/politics/whats-in-the-gop-skinny-stimulus-bill/index.html

........................................

w.bing.com/search?q=republicans+want+smaller+relief+bill+&form=CHRDEF&sp=-1&pq=republicans+want+smaller+relief+bill+&sc=0-37&qs=n&sk=&cvid=F50C2351708341D5A23954F7BD2E9476

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.1.41  sandy-2021492  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.40    one month ago

Ok.  But the bill as passed represented the majority of Americans' desires.  If the percentage were represented in a vote in congress, it would comprise a supermajority - a level of unification we seldom see anymore.  Do we want the Dems to have unity with congressional Republicans, or US citizens?  Because they seem to have it, in large part, with US citizens.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.42  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.41    one month ago
Because they seem to have it, in large part, with US citizens.

41% in one poll evidently was not enough to sway the republican party when the party really was wanting a much smaller relief bill. 

This one party bill will end up being a thorn in the sides of dems for years. 

To me that's sad and not real good politics. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.43  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.41    one month ago
the bill as passed represented the majority of Americans' desires.

Wait till the blow back. One week. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.1.44  sandy-2021492  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.42    one month ago

It doesn't have to sway the party.  It has to sway the people in general, and it did.  The Dems have the majority of voters on their side. The Dems failure to govern like the majority when they are the majority (and on this issue, they appeal to the overwhelming majority) is one of their weaknesses as a party.  They're too conciliatory.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.45  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.44    one month ago
It doesn't have to sway the party.  It has to sway the people in general, and it did. 

I guess we'll see in a few weeks. Sandy I do not think this one sided bill is good for the democratic party. Time will show the reality of it. 

Furthermore I do think this one sided bill just set the tone for the next 4 years. To me that is really sad. 

I think it's time for a unified America or we will all be paying for a divided America for a long time to come.

Many in a divided America will welcome trump back in a flash. 

IMO: That would not be good for any of us. 

Now we continue with the back and forth with little long term real progress forward being made.   still

What progress Biden makes will soon be disseminated just as trump and Obama's progress was. 

one step forward one step back... going nowhere as the world changes.

Sad. 

United we stand divided we fall. Our choice. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.46  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.44    one month ago
The Dems failure to govern like the majority when they are the majority (and on this issue, they appeal to the overwhelming majority) is one of their weaknesses as a party.  They're too conciliatory.

Sorry IF you want a authoritarian party I don't think the democratic party is ready for that. trump and his followers are Much closer to that. 

"Fight for trump !"

196

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.1.47  sandy-2021492  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.45    one month ago

Here's the thing.  As a financial conservative, I'm really not crazy about the idea of deficit spending.  BUT.  Democrats are not the only party that engages in it, and we have spent money we don't actually have on a lot worse things than keeping people fed and housed during a pandemic and its resulting economic fallout.  If the Dems are smart, they will remind everyone of that fact, if the blowback you predict occurs, and also remind them of the tax cuts championed by Republicans that increased the deficit under Trump.

IMO, expecting the Dems to compromise to appeal to the 30% who disagree, many of whom are hard-line right wingers who have no intention of compromising in return, is expecting them to allow the tail to wag the dog.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.1.48  sandy-2021492  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.46    one month ago
Sorry IF you want a authoritarian party I don't think the democratic party is ready for that.

Please don't put words in my mouth.  A party utilizing its political majority to advance the agenda supported by the supermajority of a governed people is not authoritarian.  Nobody here is calling for single-party rule, or the prohibition of anybody other than Democrats participating in government.  I'm not even a Democrat, so why would I? 

I'm simply saying that given the behavior of the Republican party since the Obama administration, which has been entirely focused on obstruction of any Democratic policy, it is wise of the Dems to assume that the hyperpartisan behavior of the Republicans will continue (and it has), and act accordingly.  You can't compromise with people who won't compromise, and the Republicans won't.  I'd be all for good-faith bargaining between the parties, but I'm not for the Democrats being played as fools in the interests of unity, which they've allowed far too often.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.49  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.48    one month ago
Please don't put words in my mouth.  A party utilizing its political majority to advance the agenda supported by the supermajority of a governed people is not authoritarian. 

The Dems failure to govern like the majority when they are the majority

................................

When trump and his republican followers did this most if us looked on it as almost a dictatorship. 

Personally I think Biden fucked up big time by not sticking to his "Unify America" theme. IMO: Biden isn't doing much better than trump at considering the opposing parties wants. 

That makes me real sad. 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Senior Participates
1.1.50  igknorantzrulz  replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.48    one month ago
I'd be all for good-faith bargaining between the parties, but I'm not for the Democrats being played as fools in the interests of unity, which they've allowed far too often.

Yes, yes they have and it's about time they shed their crustacean shells and grow that damn spine, as Republicans just continue to 'Play' them. About Frckn Time ! 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.51  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.47    one month ago
IMO, expecting the Dems to compromise to appeal to the 30% who disagree, many of whom are hard-line right wingers who have no intention of compromising in return, is expecting them to allow the tail to wag the dog.

IF NO one compromises we are right where we have been for the past 12 years. Going one direction, then the opposite direction. Lots of wasted effort and money. 

Someday we'll look back and see all the time and effort we have wasted by not compromising to begin with.

And our children will bare the burden. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.52  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  igknorantzrulz @1.1.50    one month ago
as Republicans just continue to 'Play' them.

The democrats now control the house, the senate and the presidency, so just how did the democrats allow the republicans to "play them" ? 

IMO: If the democrats really want to be better than the republicans have been it's time to try to compromise and not just get all they can like the republicans when they held all the power not so long ago. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.1.53  sandy-2021492  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.49    one month ago

When did Trump have 70% of people in support of him?

Never.

You can't please everybody.  Pleasing 70% is better than we've seen in quite a while.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
Senior Participates
1.1.54  igknorantzrulz  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.52    one month ago

i distinctly remember the Republicans disavowing, even if initially 'Their' idea, anything Obama was for, and it was ridiculous. They made and gave in on so much to get the Republicans to come along on board Obamacare, only to receive no votes in the final draft, after making many a concession. it's about time the Democrats started playing bthe same damn hardball the GOP has been screwing them over with for as long as i can recall following politics me off too, cause Judg Garland comes to mind. You know, the guy that Putins' other bitch Mitch, refused to even bring up for a vote when almost a year away from Obama's' term ending (I believe almost a year), yet, they sure shoved TYrumps pick(The Conservatives Think Tank Pick) through with what,  afew weeks mleft in Trumps term ? Fck T^Hta, cause that is some prime example hypocritical bull shit   imho

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.1.55  sandy-2021492  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.51    one month ago
IF NO one compromises

Compromise is a 2-way street.  When you can show us that the Republicans are likely to compromise, then I'll be all for compromise.  You haven't.  You've speculated that they might, but it would be a first in a long time.  As mentioned above, consider the ACA - it was based on plans originally proposed by conservatives, and on the plan implemented by Mitt Romney in Massachusetts.

Their own idea  didn't sound so good when it was pushed by a Democrat.  They all voted against it, when it was pushed by Democrats

Those are not the actions of a party willing to compromise.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.56  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.53    one month ago
When did Trump have 70% of people in support of him?

Never.

You can't please everybody.  Pleasing 70% is better than we've seen in quite a while.

Sorry to be so long getting back, I was called away.

Yes 70% is a big deal. But that 70% is of the people polled. One poll on one specific question.

We have zip-zero-no percent of republican backing on a huge huge bill.    $2,000,000,000,000,00

Ya really think that will not cause problems ? 

Now the democrats will be persecuted and the republicans will retaliate.

 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.57  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  igknorantzrulz @1.1.54    one month ago
it's about time the Democrats started playing bthe same damn hardball the GOP has been screwing them over with

Good idea IF you are looking for revenge. IF you are looking for a better ran government maybe a different choice would be a better option though. 

PS: Sorry to be so long, I was called away before. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.58  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.55    one month ago
Compromise is a 2-way street.  When you can show us that the Republicans are likely to compromise, then I'll be all for compromise.  You haven't. 

You're right .

Fuck em take all we can.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.1.59  sandy-2021492  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.58    one month ago

jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.1.60  sandy-2021492  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.56    one month ago

Here's another poll, one run by a less biased organization than CNN (IOW, not as far left):

The Politico/Morning Consult poll found 75% of registered voters either strongly or somewhat support the package. A majority likes the scope of the package: 45% of those polled say the bill's provisions offer the right amount of support, while 24% believe it offers too little. The poll found just 21% think the bill offers too much  (bolding mine).

Shall the 79% knuckle under to please the 21%?

 
 
 
Thomas
Freshman Guide
1.1.61  Thomas  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.9    one month ago

You keep talking about unity like it is achievable through compromise. For the past several years, the Republican members of the House and Senate have entrenched themselves to the point that no compromise is possible. They are all quaking in their boots that they are going to get primaried by a Trumpette and have zero investment in anything besides getting elected again.

So, they are just going to double down on cancel culture, Dr. Seuss and whatever other issue they can to try and paint the Democratic Party as Grinches who have stolen Christmas and joy from the world because they are evil people who only want to control and remove any semblance of happiness from your life. This is stupid, but it just goes to show how dissociated from actual issues they are. God damned baby killing, socialist, Dr. Seuss hating, Commie, leftist, pinko Fags...... They have been doing this quite awhile, but the smart people of the party have been abandoned along with anyone to the left of Jerry Falwell so we just have tol sit back and watch as the party disintegrates into babbling Q-anon space laser freaks. 

Sorry, just went on a fantasy trip there. But the gist of it is true: Republicans have no desire and feel no need to compromise, so they won't. At the end of the debate, the Democrats would have bargained a lot away and the result would be the same: Republicans are going to say that the plan is a socialist giveaway to people who do not need the money and a blue state bail out for places with chronic mismanagement and too high tax rates... Blah blah blah. We've heard it all before and will again.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
1.1.62  Thrawn 31  replied to  Thomas @1.1.61    one month ago

You are exactly right. There are a number of things wrong with our politics starting with the way politicians are elected (first past the post), party primaries, all the way to how congressional districts are drawn and the existence of the filibuster. All of it combines to make our government run by a two party system with no incentive to compromise and every incentive to actively sabotage the other party thus making our government highly ineffective.

What is absolutely clear is that the GOP is planning on doing the exact same thing they did during the Obama administration, but it doesn’t look like Biden is going to fall for it. Exhibit A is the counter offer to the Dens COVID bill.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.63  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.60    one month ago
Shall the 79% knuckle under to please the 21%?

Sandy I've been fighting for unity for years, I guess you are correct, its a pipe dream and frankly my dear these days I really dont give a damn anymore WTF America does. I'm not going to be much longer anyway. 

So as far as I'm concerned you all can do WTF ya want. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.1.64  sandy-2021492  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.1.63    one month ago

By "unity", do you mean 100% agreement?  Yeah, that's a pipe dream.  I can't think of an issue where there's been a unanimous opinion among all citizens.  We can't govern, if that's where the bar will be set.

That being said, I hope you're ok.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.1.65  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.1.64    one month ago
By "unity", do you mean 100% agreement?  Yeah, that's a pipe dream.  I can't think of an issue where there's been a unanimous opinion among all citizens.  We can't govern, if that's where the bar will be set. That being said, I hope you're ok.

Hi again Sandy, First Thank  you for your concern, Yes I am OK. I thank you for this conversation, it has helped me understand myself better. (the break I was forced to take for outside reasons helped give me time to think as well) I had just been writing this next bit in word before coming back this time. Here is what I was writing.

.....................................................

I've been pulling the Unity log up the hill for at least a decade.  

As what I thought may be the top, when the most powerful human on earth who had promised Unity took office I started to relax, and felt the log finally balance.

Within two months Biden seemingly abandoned his Unity theme and the log started right back down the other side. 

I'm done pulling logs.  The reality of it is I actually have little at stake anyway, no living family and no kids, I don't have too many years left and I'm as far as I know I'm financially OK.  I doubt if it all goes really all to hell really bad before I'm gone anyway.  SO... 

America.. Good Luck divided or not , now I also don't really give much of a fuck either. When the most powerful human doesn't care, WTF should I ?  

I'm done log pullin.Standing in the middle getting nailed from both sides for all these years has sucked and gives one little pleasure.  

But I do want to Thank everyone here for your respect in our many conversations. Many nice debates.

PS: I still will not rejoin either political party, they both SUCK ! 

I still truly believe Unity is best for all Americans, but now believe most americans don't believe it themselves, the pulling the Unity banor uphill to me just isn't worth it any longer.  

It just doesn't matter and I'm tired of my head hurting from banging it against brick walls from the last decade.

 lol      DING: OK  America "Fight On !" 

PSS: Have a good rest of the weekend all, it's nice out here, later, 321steve

.............................................

That's my post and I thank you for helping to set me free. 

96

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Expert
1.2  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @1    one month ago
the government is giving something to the lower classes

I have to say, I don't see tax credits as doing anything for the lower classes, considering they aren't paying income tax in the first place.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.2.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Tacos! @1.2    one month ago

The tax credits are refundable , which means they apply whether or not the person has a tax liability. A family with one child will get the 3000 dollars even if they don't pay income tax. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.2.2  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  JohnRussell @1.2.1    one month ago

No income required to qualify this time either.

w.cnbc.com/2021/03/10/who-qualifies-for-3000-dollar-child-tax-credit.html

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Expert
1.2.3  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @1.2.1    one month ago

Oh, that is interesting. That's actually helpful then.

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Expert
1.2.4  Tacos!  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @1.2.2    one month ago

So, Trump gets a tax credit?

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
1.2.5  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Tacos! @1.2.4    one month ago
So, Trump gets a tax credit?

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif   Probably so .....  

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
1.2.6  Thrawn 31  replied to  Tacos! @1.2.4    one month ago

The rich always do in America. If the poor are getting one, those of us with greater means are probably getting 2 or 3.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2  author  JohnRussell    one month ago

Why was it the progressives in the Democratic Party that insisted that the stimulus payment be given to more people than just the low wage earners? It was the moderates like Manchin and Sinema and even Biden that wanted to restrict the benefits to lower wage and poor people. The progressives realized the benefit to their movement to show people making a "middle class" income of up to 125,000 a year that they deserved government benefits too. A family with four kids whose parents make 125,000 dollars a year or less will receive tax credits that amount to  around 2000 for each kid, and that is payable to them even if they dont need to use it as a tax deduction. 

The moderates wanted to not go down that road but the progressives did. There is a reason that is the case. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3  author  JohnRussell    one month ago

President Biden just talked about this very thing in the Rose Garden. He said this bill is the first thing in a long time the government has done for the working and middle class instead of the wealthy.  Hopefully this is a new beginning. 

 
 
 
Thomas
Freshman Guide
3.1  Thomas  replied to  JohnRussell @3    one month ago

Don't hold your breath. You've seen Vic's screed against anything left of Attila the Hun. There is a sizable portion of the American voting public that hates anything that makes taxes higher or increases in any way the amount that the government pays to average citizens because they feel that the citizens are leaches who just want the handout. For a certain part of the population, I am sure that that is true. So what? We are living in the richest nation on earth and yet we treat our poorest like they should be ashamed of being poor as if it were all due to them not trying hard enough or working hard enough. 

Good job to the Democrats. I think that there plan could have been a bit more tailored to fit the situation, but hey, they got something. Now we have to see if it does what they said it will.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Thomas @3.1    one month ago

Joe Biden made it pretty clear this afternoon that he believes this is an ideological issue as well as an emergency one. He very clearly mentioned his desire for the government to something for the "working people" and the middle class as opposed to always doing something for the wealthy. 

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
3.2  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  JohnRussell @3    one month ago
Hopefully this is a new beginning. 

This is NO new anything it's more of the party in power doing whatever they want. 

Furthermore I really believe this is going to backfire. And blow up in the dems faces. Just like its blowing up the dept. 

and I want to back the dems ... sad

 
 
 
Gsquared
Sophomore Principal
3.2.1  Gsquared  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @3.2    one month ago

What about the Covid relief bill do you predict will backfire?

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
3.2.2  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Gsquared @3.2.1    one month ago
What about the Covid relief bill do you predict will backfire?

The size. That's a lot of dept to put on the American people many financial conservatives are not happy and this huge relief bill will affect what funds are available for other wants and needs for many years to come. 

republicans will be throwing this up in the dems faces till well after 2022 as well. Into the 2024 election even. 

One of the largest spending bill in history put on the backs of the American people by one party.. The democrats. 

I don't see that going down well once the bill comes due. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Masters Guide
3.2.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu @3.2    one month ago

Eh, I doubt it’ll blow up as long as they just remind the average person that they put money in their bank account, and it has been obvious for 4 years that no one gives a shit about the national debt.

A few conservatives have tried to start whining about it and the collective response has been a shrug of the shoulders and “so the fuck what?” $1 trillion deficits year in and out for no reason thanks to the GOP, no one gets to whine about the debt.

 
 
 
321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu
Sophomore Principal
3.2.4  321steve - realistically thinkin or Duu   replied to  Thrawn 31 @3.2.3    one month ago
I doubt it’ll blow up

If it does Thrawn, I really don't care, I have little reason to. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Junior Principal
4  Nerm_L    one month ago

There is a real danger in stimulating the economy too much, too soon.  The danger the so-called relief package poses is increased competition for a supply of goods still limited by the pandemic.  The Biden stimulus package will force the economy to reopen before the pandemic is under control.

As an indicator, we've already seen 17 pct inflation in the used car market.  The pandemic has limited the supplied of used cars and past relief checks has supported demand.  Is Joe Biden ready to impose price controls?

Consumers provide the money for everything in our economy.  The rich become richer because consumers spend more money.  If middlemen skim 1 cent off every dollar provided by the Biden relief package that would amount to $19 billion for doing nothing.  A middleman in the supply chain can become rich by rounding up to the nearest penny.

Businesses are necessary to provide jobs.  Consumers need the income provided by jobs so they can consume.  And consumers cannot buy what is not produced; consumers need businesses to produce what they buy, too.  Businesses are not the problem.  The real problem is middlemen exploiting consumers and exploiting businesses.  

The government simply putting more money into the hands of consumers only makes the rich richer.  The government's economic numbers will look better because consumption will increase but that does absolutely nothing to address the underlying issues driving income and wealth disparities.  In the end, the government only redistributing money can only increase disparities and allow the rich to become much richer.  The way the fundamental economy works, a guaranteed basic income would be a gift to the extremely rich.  The government will need to do a lot more than just send everyone a check.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
Masters Participates
4.1  r.t..b...  replied to  Nerm_L @4    one month ago

When has stimulating the economy ever been ‘too much too soon’ ? 

Only when the actions taken threaten the failed ‘trickle down’ mantra.

This legislation will help those that need it most, not those that need it least...hence the hand-wringing from those only so willing to wash their hands in abject denial of those whom may benefit in their self-absorbed political narrative.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Junior Principal
4.1.1  Nerm_L  replied to  r.t..b... @4.1    one month ago
When has stimulating the economy ever been ‘too much too soon’ ? 

A pandemic establishes limitations on production.  Stimulating the economy too soon will force the economy to reopen before the pandemic is under control.

Only when the actions taken threaten the failed ‘trickle down’ mantra.

These government redistribution schemes are also based upon trickle down economics.  The idea is that if the government has more money then some will trickle down.  Replacing wealthy individuals with a wealthy government doesn't change how trickle down economics works.

This legislation will help those that need it most, not those that need it least...hence the hand-wringing from those only so willing to wash their hands in abject denial of those whom may benefit in their self-absorbed political narrative.

The individual checks and enhanced unemployment benefits are the relief portion of the Biden package.  But that relief comprises much less than half of the $1.9 trillion.  Earned Income Tax Credits and tax cuts aren't economic relief for restrictions imposed by the pandemic.  Eliminating state budget deficits isn't economic relief, either.  Those are stimulative measures that should have been included in separate legislation to stimulate the economy.

Another stimulus package will be needed later this year after the country approaches herd immunity and the economy can fully be reopened.  The stimulative portion of the current Biden package will pressure the economy to reopen before the pandemic is under control.  The Biden package could well result in another surge of hospitalizations before the vaccination program can bring the pandemic under control.

 
 
 
Ender
PhD Principal
4.1.2  Ender  replied to  Nerm_L @4.1.1    one month ago

Sorry but you can't blame the relief package on 'opening too soon' when we have red state governors completely opening their states.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Junior Principal
4.1.3  Nerm_L  replied to  Ender @4.1.2    one month ago
Sorry but you can't blame the relief package on 'opening too soon' when we have red state governors completely opening their states.

The airports are open.  The highways are open.  Care to guess how many of those $1400 checks will be spent on travel?  Everyone seems to ignore that 60 pct of the labor force has continued working throughout the pandemic.

States will be rushing to reopen before those government checks leave their state.  That's also why another stimulus package will be needed later this year.  The states that are slow to reopen won't see as much benefit from the current round of checks.

 
 
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