President Biden's vaccination plan is constitutional — and necessary | TheHill

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  tacos  •  4 weeks ago  •  59 comments

By:   Glenn C. Altschuler (TheHill)

President Biden's vaccination plan is constitutional — and necessary | TheHill
Republican critics have proposed no alternative strategies for a once-in-a-century pandemic that has already killed over 650,000 Americans.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



bidenjoe_090821getty_biden-gop.jpg?itok=22UO-BsY © Getty Images

Emphasizing that "we're in a tough stretch and it could last for a while," President Bidenbidenjoe_081315getty_0.jpg?itok=zk8qw7g2 Joe BidenCapitol fencing starts coming down after 'Justice for J6' rallySenate parliamentarian nixes Democrats' immigration planBiden pushes back at Democrats on taxesMORE announced his plan to address "the pandemic of the unvaccinated" on Sept. 9. He ordered vaccinations for all federal government workers and contract employees doing business with the government; health care workers at Medicaid or Medicare participating hospitals and other health care settings; staff at Head Start programs, Department of Defense and Bureau of Indian Affairs schools. The president also required businesses with 100 or more employees to ensure that all of them are vaccinated or tested at least once a week.

Republicans, predictably, attacked the proposed policies. The plan is "blatantly unlawful," Gov. Brian Kempkemp_110418getty.jpg?itok=Mfi6IlBZ Brian KempPresident Biden's vaccination plan is Constitutional - and necessaryWhite House debates vaccines for air travelOSHA faces big challenge with Biden vaccine mandateMORE of Georgia claimed, "and Georgia will not stand for it." "Joe Biden has declared war on constitutional government, the rule of law, and the jobs and livelihoods of millions of Americans," said Florida Gov. Ron DeSantisdesantisron_050821getty_pages.jpg?itok=TdqtQIea Ron DeSantisPresident Biden's vaccination plan is Constitutional - and necessaryFaith leaders call on Congress to lead the response to a global pandemicDemocrats lean into vaccine mandates ahead of midtermsMORE. Kay Iveyiveykay_081420govkayivey-youtube_people.jpg?itok=NsGOXLFL Kay IveyPresident Biden's vaccination plan is Constitutional - and necessaryTeenage Alabama city councilman who voted against mask mandate tests positive for COVID-19Facebook says removal of Alabama governor's campaign was not based on Biden commentsMORE, Alabama's governor, who in July thought it appropriate to "start blaming the unvaccinated folks" for the rise in COVID cases, blasted Biden's mandates in September as "nonsense… an overreach… This is a fight for business, our hardworking men and women and our American liberties." A group of GOP governors has threatened to go to court to block implementation of the plan.

Biden's vaccination plan is constitutional. It may even pass muster with Trump-appointed judges. With about 100,000 Americans hospitalized with COVID-19 and some 1,500 Coronavirus-related deaths every day, Biden's strategy is urgently necessary to save lives and sustain the economic recovery. And Republican critics have proposed no alternative strategies for a once-in-a-century pandemic that has already killed over 650,000 Americans.

All 50 states require public school students to take vaccines for infectious diseases, a mandate upheld by the Supreme Court in Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905). In his opinion, Justice John Marshall Harlan emphasized that "in every well-ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members, the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations." In Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo (2020), a case involving restrictions on religious gatherings, Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuchgorsuchneil_113018upi_lead.jpg?itok=Wkul5NU4 Neil GorsuchPresident Biden's vaccination plan is Constitutional - and necessaryReligious exemption to vaccine mandates may be difficult to obtain, as Amish case showsCan Biden defend his vaccine mandate? The 'nondelegation doctrine' may be the challengeMORE reaffirmed that state vaccine mandates are constitutional: "In Jacobson, individuals could accept the vaccine, pay the fine, or identify a basis for exemption. The imposition on Mr. Jacobson's claimed right to bodily integrity, thus, was avoidable and relatively modest."

The authority of the federal government to require vaccination through Biden's plan comes from the Occupational Safety and Health Act (1970) and the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution. OSHA authorizes the Secretary of Labor to issue "an emergency temporary standard" for health and safety affecting interstate commerce if he or she determines "employees are exposed to grave danger from substances or agents determined to be toxic or physically harmful." OSHA can apply medical criteria "which will assure insofar as is practicable that no employee will suffer diminished health, functional capacity, or life expectancy as a result of work experience." In Asbestos Information Association v. OSHA (1984), the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit asserted, "Gravity of danger is a policy decision committed to OSHA, not to the courts." And Section 361 of the Public Health Service Act empowers the Department of Health and Human Services to take steps to "prevent the introduction, transmission or spread of communicable diseases" from one state to another.

The United States is already behind Great Britain, Canada, France, Germany, and Italy in our percentage of vaccinated adults. In a few weeks, Japan, which got a late start, will overtake us, and America — the COVID-19 vaccine pioneer — will have the lowest vaccination rate among the world's wealthiest democracies.

Moreover, a substantial majority of Americans favor vaccination mandates: 61 percent endorse a vaccination requirement with exemptions for medical or religious reasons. The same percentage believe effective measures to protect health and safety during the pandemic are more important than protecting personal liberty; 50 percent strongly or somewhat favor requiring employees working in person to be fully vaccinated, with 26 percent strongly or somewhat opposed (the remainder expressed no opinion). The percentages are 59 percent in favor and 21 percent opposed for K-12 teachers; 55-24 for K-12 students; 58-21 for workers in restaurants or retail stores; 62-19 for hospital and health care workers; 55-21 for government workers; 56-20 for members of the U.S. military.

It's worth noting the many vocal Republican officeholders and the disinformation disseminators on television, radio, and social media have not objected to vaccination requirements for measles, mumps, chicken pox, tetanus, and hepatitis in public schools, or laws against exceeding speed limits and driving while intoxicated, as violations of individual liberty or the U.S. Constitution.

They are playing a political game for partisan gain. In a pandemic that is deadly serious.

Glenn C. Altschuler is the Thomas and Dorothy Litwin Professor of American Studies at Cornell University. He is the co-author (with Stuart Blumin) of " Rude Republic: Americans and Their Politics in the Nineteenth Century."

TagsRon DeSantisNeil GorsuchBrian KempJoe BidenKay IveyBiden Vaccine mandateVaccinationCOVID-19 vaccineVaccination policycoronavirus pandemiccovid deathsanti-vaccination movementAnti-vaxxersRepublican Partyanti-maskanti-science


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Tacos!
Professor Expert
1  seeder  Tacos!    4 weeks ago
The United States is already behind Great Britain, Canada, France, Germany, and Italy in our percentage of vaccinated adults. In a few weeks, Japan, which got a late start, will overtake us, and America — the COVID-19 vaccine pioneer — will have the lowest vaccination rate among the world’s wealthiest democracies.

At minimum, this should be embarrassing. But beyond that, we should be ashamed.

They are playing a political game for partisan gain. In a pandemic that is deadly serious.

And how! This should be an “all hands on deck” moment to save lives. Instead, selfish partisans whine about their freedoms and worry about scoring political points.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
PhD Participates
1.1  r.t..b...  replied to  Tacos! @1    4 weeks ago

“…to save lives. Instead…”

The juxtaposition between the two is simply incomprehensible.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
1.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tacos! @1    4 weeks ago

Which makes no sense. Not to me anyway. The ones that are pushing against a vaccine mandate are killing the very voters they rely on.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
1.2.1  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  Trout Giggles @1.2    4 weeks ago
are killing the very voters they rely on.

There is an upside after all.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
1.2.2  cjcold  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @1.2.1    3 weeks ago

Darwin was right.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
1.2.3  Sean Treacy  replied to  cjcold @1.2.2    3 weeks ago
arwin was right.

So black people should die? Aren't fit to live? What's your point? 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2  Kavika     4 weeks ago

I completely agree that the mandate is legal and much needed if we are ever going to get COVID under control.

And how! This should be an “all hands on deck” moment to save lives. Instead, selfish partisans whine about their freedoms and worry about scoring political points.

Sadly the whine is that it's taking their freedom which is complete nonsense. COVID will take more than their freedom, it will take their life and it's a painful death. Science isn't even sure of what the long haul effects are and what kind of damage is being done to the body at this point to those that survive.

 
 
 
Transyferous Rex
Freshman Participates
2.1  Transyferous Rex  replied to  Kavika @2    4 weeks ago
Science isn't even sure of what the long haul effects are and what kind of damage is being done to the body at this point to those that survive.

True. There could no effects, science doesn't know. Also true that science isn't really sure what the effects of the vaccine are. Also true that last week Massachusetts reported weekly death totals for vaccinated people eclipsed 51% of the total deaths for the week, and that the numbers there have been steadily above 30% since this summer. Dug around and found that 25% of the deaths in Virginia, between August 8 and Sept. 11 were fully vaccinated. I'd hope that, before the govt. starts issuing mandates, that the results of the thing being mandated proved better than that.

The fallacy, as I see it, is that there is a policy of not testing the vaccinated for the virus, and the reporting on the issue is abysmal. You can't compare this to measles, chicken pox, etc. This shot doesn't prevent you from getting and spreading the virus. At best, it minimizes the impact. Dare I say that 51% of the people that died in Massachusetts last week question the vaccines' efficacy in that regard, or at least the families do. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
2.1.1  Split Personality  replied to  Transyferous Rex @2.1    4 weeks ago
You can't compare this to measles, chicken pox, etc.

Sure you can. It's not impossible to get measles later in life

and everyone who had chickenpox or the vaccine can develop shingles. Oh boy, fond memories of that shit.

They aren't perfect.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1.2  Kavika   replied to  Transyferous Rex @2.1    4 weeks ago

To put Massachusetts in context here are the actual numbers and % reported.

How many breakthrough COVID cases are there in Massachusetts?

Public health officials have tracked 4,450 "breakthrough" cases of COVID-19 among Massachusetts residents fully vaccinated against the disease, representing about one-tenth of 1% of the roughly 4.2 million people immunized.

About 92% of the infections in vaccinated residents did not require hospitalizations, while 303 people, or 6.8%, were hospitalized, according to state Department of Public Health data through July 10.

The Boston Herald reported  the breakthrough data on Tuesday based on a public records request.

Seventy-nine vaccinated residents in Massachusetts died from COVID-19, either without being hospitalized or following a hospital stay, DPH said. That death toll reflects 1.78% of the 4,450 confirmed breakthrough cases and 0.0019% of the 4,195,844 people fully vaccinated as of July 10.

“All available data continue to support that all 3 vaccines used in the US are highly protective against severe disease and death from all known variants of COVID-19. The best way to protect yourself and your loved ones is to get vaccinated,” the DPH said   in a statement to The Boston Globe .
 
 
 
Transyferous Rex
Freshman Participates
2.1.3  Transyferous Rex  replied to  Kavika @2.1.2    4 weeks ago

I agree with the "perspective" Kavika. My issue with that is that nobody puts unvaccinated deaths, or cases, in the same perspective. The CFR for the entire pandemic is 1.6%, which is the point. The numbers are comparable. My other issue is that the govt. wants to now mandate the shot, based on a claim that it is so damn good it is almost criminal not to get one. Again, families of the 51% that died in Massachusetts last week might see it a different way. If it was good enough to warrant a mandate, those numbers would not exist. 

Look, if a person wants the shot, get the shot. Don't piss down my back, and tell me its raining though. We have gone from 95% effective in preventing infection, to 90% effective in preventing serious illness, to 60% effective in something, to a booster is required, which will roll into another booster. All the while, natural immunity is purportedly shit, and heaven forbid a doctor treat a patient with anything but the media darling drugs. 

 
 
 
Transyferous Rex
Freshman Participates
2.1.4  Transyferous Rex  replied to  Split Personality @2.1.1    4 weeks ago

Yeah, I wouldn't want shingles. 

I agree, nothing is 100% efficient. Before the govt. threatens me with higher taxes, limitation on my travel, increased insurance costs, deprivation of medical care, etc., it should do a better job of hiding how many vaccinated people have died, or of framing the numbers in a way that minimizes the impact. Which, btw, is why I believe the CDC decided it was such a good idea not the track the total number of breakthrough cases to begin with. They didn't want to know, but couldn't avoid the cases ending up in the hospital or dead. This is a shit show. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1.5  Kavika   replied to  Transyferous Rex @2.1.3    4 weeks ago

Breakthrough case numbers is very small and deaths are extremely low in that group and many of them were over 65 and had underlying conditions. 

I'll go with the vaccine as in our neighborhood we've had breakthrough cases. One had no symptoms, another lost his smell for a week and both were over 65.  Another one refused to get the vaccine and caught COVID and was dead in a week. I'll go with the vaccine.  

 
 
 
Transyferous Rex
Freshman Participates
2.1.6  Transyferous Rex  replied to  Kavika @2.1.5    3 weeks ago
I'll go with the vaccine.  

I'd say you made an informed decision for yourself then. 

Breakthrough case numbers is very small and deaths are extremely low in that group and many of them were over 65 and had underlying conditions. 

I'd like to believe that is an extremely low number for that group. 217 deaths, as of Sept. 18. That's up 137 since mid-July. There were 407 deaths reported during that time period. Basically, 33.6% of the deaths were among the vaccinated. I follow Massachusetts, because they seem to do a better job of putting the information out there, in easy to navigate pages, or in one nice spreadsheet for those that would rather see the raw data, but the numbers speak for themselves. 33% of something could be an extremely low number, but not in this context. The percentage of deaths also tracks lock step with the percentage of cases reported, with the vaccinated side of things climbing each week. I'll grant you that Mass. has a pretty high vaccination rate, so I'd expect to see some numbers for the vaccinated crowd. 33% though? Again, seems awful high for something the govt. is threatening to mandate on the claim that it is highly effective. As I've lamented on here before, the only places I'd celebrate 66% efficiency are in the batter's box and a basketball player's shooting from the field. I can only imagine the dismal sales of a disinfectant, the label of which claims "66% effective in killing household germs." 

On that note, there are consumer advocacy groups that test whether or not Bounty is the Quicker Picker Upper. But question whether or not the vaccines are as effective as alleged? Can't do that.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Junior Quiet
2.2  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @2    4 weeks ago
I completely agree that the mandate is legal and much needed if we are ever going to get COVID under control.

I agree it's probably legal.

I don't think the math supports the "necessary" idea.  On current pace, we're not very far from the overwhelming majority of Americans either being vaxed, recovered, or dead.  There are no doubt some who are naturally immune, but we have little reason to believe that's a statistically significant number.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3  JBB    4 weeks ago

Don't be selfish. Get shots and let's end this plague!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1  TᵢG  replied to  JBB @3    4 weeks ago

It is stupidity more than selfishness.   The unvaccinated harm themselves more than others (indirectly by stressing medical resources, stressing the economy, etc.).

Thing is, it is not even ignorance since the facts are out there.   It is people behaving stupidly by accepting as truth the misguided mantras of their conformist group.   Group think leading to tragic circumstances.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
3.2  Ronin2  replied to  JBB @3    4 weeks ago

Getting the shots will not end Covid 19. They are not vaccines; they are no better than the flu shot.

The US has not had one single strain of Covid 19 originate here. Everything has come from outside the country. So long as the US does not impose a mandate that anyone coming into this country must be fully vaccinated; and pass a Covid test after being fully quarantined for two weeks, new strains will continue to get in.

That means shutting down the southern open border completely. No illegals in; and those that are here need to be deported- or else be forced under the same mandate as US citizens to get the shots. Something Biden already stated he will not do. All immigrants are exempt from the mandate. Joe missed it completely again. 

Waiting for the Omega strain to be developed abroad that will be completely resistant to the current shots; it is coming. Delta is just the start; the new variants will become more an more resistant. 

The US can keep on it's current course and be hit with new spikes with every new strain that enters the country; or take steps to keep all new strains out. 

Oh well, at least the drug companies are making a killing on Covid. 

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.2.1  JBB  replied to  Ronin2 @3.2    4 weeks ago

That is your opinion which is not supported by either the medical, scientific or immunological communities. Thus, completely wrongheaded...

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
3.2.2  seeder  Tacos!  replied to  Ronin2 @3.2    4 weeks ago

I find these comments from you contradictory:

You: Getting the shots will not end Covid 19. They are not vaccines; they are no better than the flu shot.
Also you: anyone coming into this country must be fully vaccinated

If the shots are so ineffective, why bother requiring them of people entering the country?

And anyway, the flu shots are considered to be pretty effective even though they average less than 50%. The Covid shots are for more effective - in the 90% range for the original strain, and still very close to that with Delta for keeping people out of the hospital if they happen to get infected.

Waiting for the Omega strain to be developed abroad

There is nothing special about foreign soil that promotes mutation. The virus can mutate just as easily in America as it can anywhere else. Once it is here, it is Americans who spread it amongst themselves by refusing to get vaccinated, wear masks or socially distance themselves.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
3.2.3  mocowgirl  replied to  Tacos! @3.2.2    4 weeks ago
And anyway, the flu shots are considered to be pretty effective even though they average less than 50%. The Covid shots are for more effective - in the 90% range for the original strain, and still very close to that with Delta for keeping people out of the hospital if they happen to get infected.

New article on how long Covid shots are effective.  If the data below proves to be correct, then boosters, of the current shots, would be required at least every 6 months for the elderly and at risk populations.  There is at least one live attenuated Covid vaccine in clinical trials.  So maybe there will be much better vaccines available next year.

Why we need to get Covid booster jabs... but other vaccines last a lifetime | Daily Mail Online

The latest data shows that protection against Covid infection from the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines starts to fade within four to five months of the second dose.

The figures, not yet published in a journal, come from the ZOE Covid study, which relies on an app used by more than one million people to collect data on infection rates.

The data shows that while the AstraZeneca jab reduced the chances of infection by 77 per cent when first given, this dropped to 67 per cent after five months; meanwhile, protection from the Pfizer vaccine dropped from 88 to 74 per cent.

At that rate of decline, researchers have warned, protection could drop below 50 per cent by the winter, especially in those older people who were first to get the jabs and whose immunity may have waned the most since.

Similar findings emerged from a recent study by the University of Oxford, which looked at the vaccines' efficacy against the more virulent Delta strain.

Two weeks after being given, the Pfizer jab reduced the risk of someone developing a high viral load — the amount of virus circulating in their body — by 92 per cent; 90 days after vaccination, this had dropped to 78 per cent. Over the same time frame, the AstraZeneca jab's effectiveness fell from 69 to 61 per cent.

This contrasts with other vaccines, such as the one for measles, mumps and rubella (MMR), which lasts a lifetime. So why is it different with Covid vaccines?

'To get long-lasting immunity, as you do with the measles jab, you usually need to have a live attenuated vaccine — one that contains a much weakened version of the virus itself,' says Lawrence Young, a virologist and a professor of molecular oncology at the University of Warwick.

These vaccines contain a milder form of the real virus which is enough to trigger a robust, long-lasting immune system reaction. It's effectively like catching the virus, but without symptoms.

By contrast, the current crop of Covid jabs mostly contain either a man-made version of a protein (the spike protein) found in the virus, or genetic fragments of the virus. 

Both prime the immune system to produce antibodies that patrol the bloodstream looking for signs of the virus.

Although they produce a less robust immune system response, synthetic copies of the spike protein and genetic fragments of Covid — called mRNA — are much more stable and easier to control than vaccines made with live virus, making mass production simpler.

However, at least one live attenuated Covid vaccine — called COVI-VAC — is in clinical trials, with results due in spring 2022.
 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
3.2.4  seeder  Tacos!  replied to  mocowgirl @3.2.3    4 weeks ago
However, at least one live attenuated Covid vaccine — called COVI-VAC — is in clinical trials, with results due in spring 2022.

Interesting. Sounds like maybe we just need to hang on long enough to get this vaccine.

The other day, I read this story that indicates the Moderna vaccine seems to be holding up better over the long term:

Big gap between Pfizer, Moderna vaccines seen for preventing COVID hospitalizations

When they focused specifically on the period 120 days beyond the second dose, the study authors found that the Moderna vaccine remained 92% effective at preventing COVID-19 hospitalizations. But the equivalent figure for the Pfizer vaccine was 77%.
 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
3.2.5  mocowgirl  replied to  Tacos! @3.2.4    4 weeks ago
Interesting. Sounds like maybe we just need to hang on long enough to get this vaccine.

I agree.  The problem is that we need to know how the advanced vaccines will interact with the current ones being used.  

The other day, I read this story that indicates the Moderna vaccine seems to be holding up better over the long term:

Me, too.  Because I can be mostly a hermit, I had planned to get the J&J shot this month.  I just read that J&J recipients would benefit from a booster 2 months after first dose.  Now I am contemplating bulk buying winter supplies and mostly remaining home until spring in the hopes of getting an improved vaccine that does not require endless boosters.  

My daughters had the J&J shot in late spring.  They suspect they had a light case of Covid in early September.  Their symptoms mimicked what my husband and I experienced in February 2021.  Low grade fever, chills, headache, mild nausea and fatigue.  For me, the headache was the worst symptom.  Regardless, of whether it was Covid or not, if I must leave the house, I wear a mask and social distance.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
3.2.6  mocowgirl  replied to  Tacos! @3.2.4    4 weeks ago
Interesting. Sounds like maybe we just need to hang on long enough to get this vaccine.

Article from April 2021 on more vaccines that are being developed.

Scientists Race To Develop More Convenient And Potent COVID Vaccines : Shots - Health News : NPR

The three COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States are safe and effective and were made in record time.

But they aren't ideal.

An ideal vaccine — besides being safe and effective — would have a few other desirable characteristics, says  Deborah Fuller , a vaccine researcher at the University of Washington.

Such a vaccine would be "administered in a single shot, be room temperature stable, work in all demographics and, even pushed beyond that, ideally be self-administered," she says.

Now, researchers are racing to develop the next generation of COVID-19 vaccines, utilizing a variety of innovative technologies to produce more convenient and more potent options. Some of the new vaccines are already being tested in volunteers and could even be available for distribution in the next year or so.

Scientists are exploring one set of changes that should be popular with people who don't like needles.

"We wanted to develop a platform technology where we could easily give a vaccine, and obviously the easiest format to give would be a tablet," says  Sean Tucker , chief scientific officer at  Vaxart .
 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
3.2.7  seeder  Tacos!  replied to  mocowgirl @3.2.5    4 weeks ago

This morning I heard that story about the J&J vaccine . It sounds like it might even be best to get the booster 6 months after the initial shot.

But when a person receives a booster shot two months after getting the pharmaceutical company's one-dose vaccine, the protection against COVID-19 increased to 94%. A booster shot at six months provided a 12-fold increase in antibodies.

That’s actually kind of encouraging because it was starting to seem like the J&J shot wasn’t all that useful. I got Moderna, but really only because it’s what they had at the place I got it. 

 
 
 
gooseisback
Freshman Silent
3.2.8  gooseisback  replied to  JBB @3.2.1    4 weeks ago
Thus, completely wrongheaded...

Here is my opinion on the vaccine, it only reduces your chances of getting sick and potential for death.

It does not make you immune from Covid

It does not keep you from getting sick from Covid

It does not prevent you from dying form Covid

It does not prevent you from contracting Covid and spreading it to other people included unvaccinated and vaccinated individuals without knowing and causing those people to potentially become sick and die.

At least unvaccinated people will become sick after contracting the virus and be away from the population, where vaccinated people that are asymptomatic will continue to spread the virus. 

The Government is putting little credence for the people who have had Covid and have natural immunity. 

The Government is doing NOTHING to test people entering this country illegally and allowing them to travel all over the country and become super spreaders. .

The Government is only pushing the vaccine rather than any type of treatment if someone becomes infected (although that appears to be changing rapidly).   

This virus is airborne you can no more stop it then you can stop the wind, it will take herd immunity to bring it under control. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.2.9  TᵢG  replied to  gooseisback @3.2.8    4 weeks ago

Looks as though you do not count anything less than 100%.   That is unrealistic.

Vaccines do not make one immune from COVID 100% but 80-90% is substantially better than 0% (unvaccinated).   How can you not see this?

At least unvaccinated people will become sick after contracting the virus and be away from the population, where vaccinated people that are asymptomatic will continue to spread the virus.

Vaccinated people are less likely to be infected and will stay infected for a shorter period.   Beyond that, you are arguing that it is better to be unvaccinated than vaccinated because after spreading the disease, the unvaccinated will at least be taken out of the population for a while.   Why do people engage in such twisted reasoning?   Why would you try to dissuade people from getting vaccinated?

The Government is doing NOTHING to test people entering this country illegally and allowing them to travel all over the country and become super spreaders. .

Good point.   (Just noting that your comment was not entirely off-base.)

This virus is airborne you can no more stop it then you can stop the wind, it will take herd immunity to bring it under control. 

It is airborne with limitations.   Depends on where it came from (if from the mouth, nose, etc. it is contained within droplets that masks do a rather decent job of containing).   If from the lungs and propelled with a cough (or, worse, a sneeze) then the masks are still effective (albeit less).   

However, if no mask is worn then the spreading is very efficient.    People should wear masks!

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
3.2.10  mocowgirl  replied to  gooseisback @3.2.8    4 weeks ago
The Government is putting little credence for the people who have had Covid and have natural immunity.

Natural immunity should be studied thoroughly before being shoved aside as not being equal to current shot options. 

Unless a person is in a high risk category and/or wants a shot to maybe boost their immune system for a few months, people who have had covid should not be required to be vaccinated.  We really don't know that it is needed.

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
3.2.11  Split Personality  replied to  gooseisback @3.2.8    4 weeks ago
At least unvaccinated people will become sick after contracting the virus and be away from the population, where vaccinated people that are asymptomatic will continue to spread the virus. 

The real problem is that it takes a team of 8 people per shift to attend to seriously ill COVID people until they most likely die.

It's causing shortages of Oxygen, staff burn out

and canceling other needed surgeries and needed treatments.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
3.2.12  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  Split Personality @3.2.11    4 weeks ago
At least unvaccinated people will become sick after contracting the virus and be away from the population, where vaccinated people that are asymptomatic will continue to spread the virus. 

Cue the Twilight Zone theme song after reading that.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.2.13  TᵢG  replied to  mocowgirl @3.2.10    4 weeks ago
Natural immunity should be studied thoroughly before being shoved aside as not being equal to current shot options. 

Agreed.   Plus there are people who cannot take the vaccine for various medical reasons.   Complicated details that must be a decision by the individual and doctor.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.2.14  Tessylo  replied to  mocowgirl @3.2.10    3 weeks ago

"Unless a person is in a high risk category and/or wants a shot to maybe boost their immune system for a few months, people who have had covid should not be required to be vaccinated.  We really don't know that it is needed."

I disagree with that.  It is better to err on the side of caution.  

 
 
 
gooseisback
Freshman Silent
3.2.15  gooseisback  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.9    3 weeks ago
Vaccines do not make one immune from COVID 100% but 80-90% is substantially better than 0%

If the vaccine is 80/90% why are vaccinated people wearing masks?

Vaccinated people are less likely to be infected and will stay infected for a shorter period. 

Please show me the long term study of vaccinated people being tested on a regular basis to see if they have covid and how long it remains in their system. 

  you are arguing that it is better to be unvaccinated than vaccinated because after spreading the disease

No, I am pointing out that vaccinated people may be spreading the disease and not know it.

Why would you try to dissuade people from getting vaccinated?

I haven't dissuaded anyone, Hell.....my wife is fully vaccinated. My problem is people have reasons for not to getting  the vaccine one of the main reasons is they have had Covid. They may have other underlying factors that put them at a higher risk, these need to be taken into account rather than "get the vaccine or else".

 
 
 
gooseisback
Freshman Silent
3.2.16  gooseisback  replied to  Tessylo @3.2.14    3 weeks ago
It is better to err on the side of caution.  

No....its better to not err at all. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.2.17  TᵢG  replied to  gooseisback @3.2.15    3 weeks ago
If the vaccine is 80/90% why are vaccinated people wearing masks?

To reduce the chance of them spreading the virus to others.   A vaccinated person could still carry the virus even if it does not infect them.   The other factor is administration.   If everyone wears a mask then there is no need to check vaccination cards, etc.   I can see why rule-makers would enact a simple rule wherein everyone wears a mask.   It is practical.

Please show me the long term study of vaccinated people being tested on a regular basis to see if they have covid and how long it remains in their system. 

If you think I am incorrect then do your own research.  I am not going to spend time hunting down the many articles I have read on this subject to give you the specific information you seek.

No, I am pointing out that vaccinated people may be spreading the disease and not know it.

That is true.   Do you consider that an argument to not get vaccinated?   If not, what valuable point are you trying to make?

I haven't dissuaded anyone, Hell.....my wife is fully vaccinated. My problem is people have reasons for not to getting  the vaccine one of the main reasons is they have had Covid. They may have other underlying factors that put them at a higher risk, these need to be taken into account rather than "get the vaccine or else".

Yes those who have natural immunity need not be vaccinated and those who have medical reasons to not be vaccinated should avoid it.   These represent a very tiny minority.  

So if it was clear that those with natural immunity and medical reasons do not have to be vaccinated are you okay with coercion?   My guess is that you are not but you do not have a good reason for why the super majority of unvaccinated should not be coerced to get vaccinated.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.2.18  TᵢG  replied to  gooseisback @3.2.16    3 weeks ago

That is impossible.   So being practical we necessarily try to choose the best (but always imperfect) path.

 
 
 
gooseisback
Freshman Silent
3.2.19  gooseisback  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.17    3 weeks ago
My guess is that you are not but you do not have a good reason for why the super majority of unvaccinated should not be coerced to get vaccinated.

You have failed to mention the elephant in the room, why is the Biden Administration allowing what could be over a million people enter our country with no test or vaccines.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.2.20  TᵢG  replied to  gooseisback @3.2.19    3 weeks ago

Well that was not what we were discussing.   Comments are necessarily focused.

Since you want to change the subject (entirely):

I have no idea why the Biden administration is not all over our borders with respect to the pandemic.    Makes no sense to me.

 
 
 
gooseisback
Freshman Silent
3.2.21  gooseisback  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.20    3 weeks ago
Well that was not what we were discussing.

From my original post:

The Government is doing NOTHING to test people entering this country illegally and allowing them to travel all over the country and become super spreaders.
Makes no sense to me.

Which is why I feel in addition to natural immunity and underlying health concerns people aren't electing to be vaccinated because of  the mixed messaging from Biden/Harris during the campaign of everything Orange Man did was bad to now the vaccine is great and you must take it. Never acknowledging President Trump for Operation Warp Speed getting the vaccine manufactured. Down playing any type of therapeutic treatment. Trying to recommend booster shots for no scientific reason and then the Illegals get a pass but,  you get fired for not getting the jab. Please tell me how you think this ends.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.2.22  TᵢG  replied to  gooseisback @3.2.21    3 weeks ago
people aren't electing to be vaccinated because of  the mixed messaging from Biden/Harris during the campaign

There was no mixed messaging from Biden/Harris ... people choose to pretend that Harris refused to take the vaccine but that is not what she said.

This is just excuse making.   Anyone with a brain understands that the coronavirus is dangerous and that we have vaccines that are highly effective (albeit imperfect) at keeping one safe.   Some cannot take a vaccine but the super majority of the USA unvaccinated can yet will not.   Blaming Biden is absurd.   These people can see the stats but they inexplicably refuse to take the vaccine.   It is up to them to get their butts to a pharmacy, etc. and get the free vaccine.  

Why do they refuse Goose?   Getting a shot is not radical.   The vaccines have had an enormous trial with billions of people fully vaccinated.   What on Earth are these people waiting for?   What are they afraid of?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.2.23  Tessylo  replied to  gooseisback @3.2.16    3 weeks ago

You make no sense, as usual

 
 
 
gooseisback
Freshman Silent
3.2.24  gooseisback  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.22    3 weeks ago
There was no mixed messaging from Biden/Harris ...

The Border, if it's that fucking important, why isn't everyone crossing the border being vaccinated  Why isn't every person entering the US from over seas being vaccinated at the airport, I don't know is not an answer.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.2.25  TᵢG  replied to  gooseisback @3.2.24    3 weeks ago
The Border, if it's that fucking important, why isn't everyone crossing the border being vaccinated 

You spoke of mixed messaging during the campaign and now you turn to the border.    I already told you that I share your concerns with the border.

I don't know is not an answer.  

It is if you do not know.   Do you know why every person entering the USA is not guaranteed to be free of infection?

Do you know why so many in the USA refuse to get vaccinated?

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
4  Ronin2    4 weeks ago

We will see if the mandate is legal. There are states and businesses cuing up to challenge it in court. 

Of course Biden has never listened to the courts before; so why would he start now?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1  devangelical  replied to  Ronin2 @4    4 weeks ago

... but during trump's term no big deal, right?

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
4.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  devangelical @4.1    4 weeks ago

What court ruling did Trump ignore?

We can all wait for you non existent answer.

Biden already ignored the court's ruling on the rent moratorium by having DHS craft new rules.  And as everyone can tell by our southern border's latest crisis; Biden is dragging his feet reinstituting Trump's remain in Mexico until trial mandate for all illegals.

But then Democrats never think that laws apply to them; only those on the right. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @4    4 weeks ago

Tens of millions of people are stubbornly refusing the vaccine.

What would you do as PotUS to convince them to get vaccinated?

 
 
 
Ronin2
Masters Quiet
4.2.1  Ronin2  replied to  TᵢG @4.2    4 weeks ago

See post 3.2.

Getting the shots will never stop Covid. It will make the drug companies rich forever.

Also, stop calling it a vaccine! Vaccines prevent people from getting diseases they are administered for. This is nothing better than the flu shot. You take it in the hopes that if you get the flu it will not be as severe. If they are off on the Molotov cocktail they put in the flu shots then the outbreak is severe. We had a few years where the flu was very severe; it didn't matter if you got the shot or not. 

But keep repeating the same failed process over and over. I am sure there is a Covid strain out there somewhere being bred that will be completely shot resistant. Once it hits the US the fun will really begin.

There are far too many humans on this plant; and nature is now in correction mode. Either we adapt; or wait for the giant kill off to come.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.2  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @4.2.1    4 weeks ago
Getting the shots will never stop Covid. It will make the drug companies rich forever.

Are you actually in favor of people remaining unvaccinated??

Everything has come from outside the country. So long as the US does not impose a mandate that anyone coming into this country must be fully vaccinated; and pass a Covid test after being fully quarantined for two weeks, new strains will continue to get in.

That is true, but so far the vaccines have been effective against the variants.   Thus, it makes sense for everyone to get vaccinated.   Right?

Also, stop calling it a vaccine! Vaccines prevent people from getting diseases they are administered for. This is nothing better than the flu shot.

It is a vaccine Ronin.   You are engaging in a fool's errand to try to pretend that the vaccines do not inhibit infection.   Vaccines, by definition, encourage the immune system to produce antibodies to fight an invading infectious disease.    The vaccines for COVID do that and even do it with breakthrough technology (mRNA) which encourages our cells to produce antibodies based on RNA signatures of antigens.  This is very targeted technology that we can adapt to new variants by producing mRNA of the new variant antigens and plugging that into the extant vaccine bio-technology.   To wit, new variants can be addressed far more quickly than ever before.

Amazing that people are now resorting to name games in a misguided attempt (apparently) of encouraging people to NOT get vaccinated. 

I am sure there is a Covid strain out there somewhere being bred that will be completely shot resistant. Once it hits the US the fun will really begin.

It is possible.  But what is disturbing is that you seem to want that to be the case. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.3  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @4.2.1    4 weeks ago

At TiG@4.2 I asked you:

What would you do as PotUS to convince them to get vaccinated?

You replied, but did not answer the question.  Your @3.2 post simply said to control the border.   Is that what you would do as PotUS?   Not push for vaccines but simply control the border??

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
Professor Guide
4.2.4  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Ronin2 @4.2.1    4 weeks ago
Also, stop calling it a vaccine! Vaccines prevent people from getting diseases they are administered for. This is nothing better than the flu shot.

I'm not sure where you are getting this kind of information, but it's disturbing that you really seem to believe it.

And PS:  Pharmaceutical companies are already rich forever.  

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
4.2.5  dennis smith  replied to  TᵢG @4.2    4 weeks ago

How many of those tens of millons of people have already had Covid and how many of them have natural immunity to it? 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.6  TᵢG  replied to  dennis smith @4.2.5    4 weeks ago

Simple math would have given you a decent answer:

Population of the USA = 328 M

Number of people fully vaccinated = 54% or 177 M

Number of people not fully vaccinated = 151 M  (328 M - 177 M)

Number of people recovered from COVID in the USA = 32.7 M

Let's assume that all people who have had COVID still have effective antibodies; that means 32.7 M could be considered naturally vaccinated.  

Let's also assume that all of the 32.7 M are unvaccinated ( and we know that is being generous ); that would leave us with 151 M - 32.7 M or 118.3 M people who have not been fully vaccinated / have natural antibodies.

So, roughly, we are talking about 118 M people in the USA who should get vaccinated.


Given that, did you have a point you wanted to make?

 
 
 
dennis smith
Masters Silent
4.2.7  dennis smith  replied to  TᵢG @4.2.6    4 weeks ago

You left out the number of people who have natural antibodies, how many are not of age to get vaccinated, how many have medical conditions that mean they should not get vaccinated.

Do you have a point to make now or do you think the number is still 118 M?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.8  TᵢG  replied to  dennis smith @4.2.7    4 weeks ago
You left out the number of people who have natural antibodies

Well, Dennis, supply the number.   How many people, as a percentage of the population, have natural antibodies to all extant variants?   Give me the number and I will plug it in.   I predict it will be insignificant.   (Actually, I predict that you will NOT deliver the number because you have no idea what it is.)

how many are not of age to get vaccinated

Does not change the number.  The fact that they cannot get vaccinated does not change the fact that they should be vaccinated.   Don't throw in irrelevant factors as a smokescreen.  

how many have medical conditions that mean they should not get vaccinated.

As above, supply the number.   I predict the same here as with natural antibodies.  Insignificant.

But, Dennis, do supply the numbers and make your case.   Show me you have more than bullshit to offer.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.2.9  Tessylo  replied to  Ronin2 @4.2.1    3 weeks ago

Same nonsense as goose.  Ridiculous.  

 
 
 
r.t..b...
PhD Participates
4.3  r.t..b...  replied to  Ronin2 @4    4 weeks ago

“Of course Biden…”

…three simple words that do absolutely nothing but inflame an already combustible situation.

While some speciously argue the ‘legality’ in attempting to couch their obviously partisan intentions, a pandemic continues to ravage our country and the world.

A pandemic that has no motive and no aspiration other than to survive and to mutate and to find new hosts. That we have the means to slow the spread and yet battle over the implementation of those means…and for purely and puerile political posturing? 

Please just don’t. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.4  Tessylo  replied to  Ronin2 @4    3 weeks ago

Let the idiots sue.  They'll lose.

IT IS LEGAL.  

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
5  Sean Treacy    4 weeks ago

I always like polling numbers included in Constitutional  arguments. People forget the 11th Amendment has a little known codicil that lets you do you whatever the hell you want so long as you can point to a poll. 

 
 
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