Four dead, three injured in Denver-area 'killing spree'
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Four people were killed and three were injured, including a police officer, in what authorities described Monday as a "killing spree" in the Denver metro area.
The suspect, who has not been identified, was killed by officers in the Denver suburb of Lakewood, a spokesman with the local police department told reporters.
Denver Police Chief Paul Pazen said during a news conference that the shootings began around 5 p.m. in Denver. Four people were shot at two locations, three fatally, before gunfire erupted between the suspect and Denver police.
No Denver officers were injured, but the suspect disabled their vehicle before fleeing to Lakewood, Pazen said.
There, police responded to reports of an active shooter just before 6 p.m., Lakewood police spokesman John Romero said. One person was pronounced dead at the scene, he said.
The suspect then opened fire at a Hyatt hotel, shooting a clerk who was later taken to a local hospital, Romero said. The person's condition wasn't immediately known, Romero said.
After wounding a Lakewood police officer, the suspect was fatally shot by other officers in the department. The injured officer was undergoing surgery, Romero said.
It wasn't clear what prompted the shootings or how they were linked. But Pazen said his officers had tried to "stop this suspect from this killing spree."
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While working in my father's factory when I was a youth, my great uncle Bill who worked there used to say every day: "Another day, another dollar." When I read the news of America these days, what makes me think back to that?
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Sunday evening, at an interstate rest area near here, 4 people were shot following a domestic dispute. The shooter was later found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.
Scary stuff.
Whenever a gun is introduced into any "domestic situation" the chances a family member is killed by gunshot increase exponentially. It is very seldom that members of gun free households die of gunfire.
Yet most ninnys believe more guns make them safer.
Is this your way of saying firearms can't be used for protection?
They can, but more often than not, they aren't.
That depends on if one believes the MSM and how they report things , lawful use of firearms for self defense isnt exactly looked at as something that is reportable , nor does it help the narrative some in the MSM wish to be believed to direct a specific outcome .
Obama's gun study said one VERY IMPORTANT THING.... insufficient data is collected to make any coherent governmental policy on guns, the one biggest stat that isn't collected? the DGU...
Defensive Gun Uses, estimated by that study to be anywhere from 800,000 per year (conservative) to over 2,000,000 per year... Without accurate collection of that data it's impossible to see how effective any policy is... And as mark said it is the most underreported stat of all...
But an absolutely needed one if your going to make effective policy...
You could look up the question for yourself....
But in 1996, Congress passed an amendment to the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Bill. The bill modification, commonly known as the Dickey Amendment, prohibited the use of federal funds to "advocate or promote gun control," leading to the elimination of all CDC funding to conduct firearm-related research -- having a lasting impact still limiting what we know today about gun violence.
While both parties were complacent in this, guess which side of the aisle overwhelmingly supported it.
But NOW, it is finally going to happen.
Congress quashed funding for C.D.C. gun violence research 25 years ago. But an extraordinary friendship between an agency scientist and the “point man” for the N.R.A. helped bring the money back.
EXCEPT for Obama's 2007 gun study, which he negotiated with the republicans to get funded.. I posted the links to it here a little while ago, it readily available if you care to look...
The Dicky amendment provision was suspended to allow that study... Nice try... massive fail... Or are you denying that Obama had a study done?
Can't read your last link, I don't pay the NYT for their drivel...
That depends. Are you going with the media or actual statistics?
How about this statistic... The USA has more mass shootings in a month, (per FBI definition), than Australia has had in the last 25 years.
If that doesn't alarm you even a little bit, it really should.
Too many gangs. When Democratic cities crack down on crime, the mass shootings will go down. But they've chosen to keep criminals on the streets and murders result.
Over 1,000 victims, 126 dead, just 2 convictions: 6 years of mass shootings in Chicago
With guns.
Trying to get past the gun lobby is like trying to hunt elephants with a nerf gun.
No they won't.
The prisons are full of people that are doing 20 years for having a gram of weed, just to name one example. Locking up everyone for everything creates more criminals in the long run.
Chicago is 13th on the list of, "most deadly cities".. Speaking of believing everything the MSM tells you.
What a shock, higher concentrations of people means more crime. That's common sense.
Mass Shootings: A ‘Different’ Type of Murder, or Part of a Continuum (cjcj.org)
Morning Frosty...to be honest I think you mob and us have a very different mentality when it comes to guns.
We have shootings, stabbings, murders etc but nothing compared to the US.
And no all guns are not banned here, certain types are yes. And we don't need or want them in the hands of the public.
When it comes to guns, we are not even in the same ball park as the US...and that is the way we like it.
No other country is, it's really not even a contest.
And good morning to you too.
Is that supposed to be a rebuttal to what I wrote? What a bizarre claim.
a shock, higher concentrations of people means more crime
Again, what does that have to do with a I wrote? But by all means, explain why "higher concentrations of people" caused less than one percent of the hundreds of mass shooters in Chicago to be convicted.
Well, duh. Of course that's what makes a mass shooting possible. Guns are everywhere. But it's in places like Chicago where mass shootings occur regularly and the community doesn't care.
The overwhelming majority of mass shootings will stop when the community decides they should stop.
Lol. You think the gun lobby is pushing Democratic DA's not to charge people with crimes? Is it the gun lobby's fault that mass shooters in places like Chicago are never convicted? Simply enforcing the laws on the books are all you need to do..
The prisons are full of people that are doing 20 years for having a gram of weed,
So why are Democratic jurisdictions locking up people for weed and letting violent criminals on the streets?
You think the NRA supports gangs shooting each other, are you nuts?
Doesn't alarm me, why, cause about ten years ago the FBI changed the definition of mass shooting... prior to the change, there was actually a decrease in mass shootings per the FBI's definition.... that's why the change in definition... The democrats needed to pump the number back up... So no I don't believe anything the democrat lapdogs in the MSM say about mass shootings.... pre change numbers of mass shootings?
I believe six in total...
Nothings changed, nothing has gotten worse, only what is being reported as a mass shooting...
austrailia also has about 12 to 13 times less population using current numbers, but my calculator could be wrong (us pop 332,915,000 Aus 25,739,000 ) more people more crime right ? lets not forget population density IE population congestion .
i think , IMHO , it will be a frosty day in hell before law abiding gun owners give up their guns before the criminal element is totally disarmed ....
Have you forgotten what you wrote already?
I simply showed you why there was insufficient date.
Sorry, but the MASSIVE FAIL is on your end.
Eleven million of the Australian population live in two cities, Sydney and Melbourne. Density also matters.
He acknowledged that density matters right here:
No the Dickey amendment stopped a massive study campaign by gun banners for gun banners, and pulled the government money out of the biased gun banning support report industry... it wasn't the cause of insufficient data, it stopped the flow of BIASED gun studies built on government funding and insufficient data...
The Obama gun study took that into account by requiring BOTH SIDES participate and sign off on the studies final conclusions... (which they did)
And the conclusion was that to date there NEVER was sufficient data collected in the first place... EVER...
Which includes the period before the Dicky amendment... Obama insisted that BOTH SIDES be involved to eliminate the argument you are now offering up...
So yeah, the massive fail is on your side, your making the argument that Obama wanted to avoid at all costs... I will give credit to Obama, that is one thing he really really wanted to do, come up with some practical gun regulations that all sides could be happy with... The Dickey Amendment didn't stop that at all...
Your argument fails on it's face...
So are you suggesting you want to go the route Australia went? The inanimate object isn't the problem despite how many times it's blamed.
The problem, Jeremy, is NEEDING firearms for protection.
that is something to think about , but the firearm is that individuals solution to needing protection in their mind , or to protect ones self , the problem then stems from why would they need to protect themselves ? and those problems stem from society itself for a multitude of reasons .and usually it is a failure of the mechanisms society came up with that they thought would handle those situations .
So....you're saying that the Dickey amendment, to prevent study of gun violence is NOT the reason the Obama study had insufficient data? An amendment to specifically prevent data from being collected is NOT the reason for sufficient data not being collected?
WOW!!!
I am an old man and never needed a gun...
CORRECT! Obama's study established the FACT that there has NEVER been sufficient data collection to formulate any coherent government policy... AND, before you can develop such policy you FIRST have to develop a way to accurately collect the needed data, (one of the biggest problems with current data is the haphazard and inconsistent way it is collected) then organize it in a way that it consistently represents the same thing in all jurisdictions... All of the data not just the data that supports one side of the issue...
And both sides had to sign off on (agree with) these scientifically arrived at conclusions/recommendations......
It is why everyone on all sides of the debate have given up on gun control as a function of government... It is why Obama famously said that "Gun Control is Dead"
And that has been the political standard ever since... Obama did more to kill authoritarian gun control in this country than any president before him... One of the great unsung things he accomplished while being president... and as he also so famously said, it is his greatest lament of his presidency that he failed to enact any cohesive gun control...
Personally, I think he absolutely knew what he inadvertently did to gun control as a political issue... Heller and McDonald only finished the job...
You DON'T have to believe me, I DON'T want you to believe me, GO READ IT FOR YOURSELF... IT'S PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE...
I think your the only one at this late date that is still arguing it...
Good for you, I'm very happy that you have never had a need....
then i would say count yourself lucky , not everyone faces the same set of circumstances .
And i hope your circumstances do not change to where you may feel you may need one at any time in the future .
I would rather have one and not need it than to need one and not have it. So I do.
Okey dokey....
I don't want to use my fire extinguisher or gun, I like having them available in case
You don't have to believe it, you can go read it for yourself, cause it is the truth... Makes no difference to me...
How many times has the NRA supported gun legislation?
Zero.. You're welcome.
“How many times has the NRA supported gun legislation?”
Umm, you might want to read this,
yw.
A kid shot up a convenience store in Oklahoma and an old man shot a lot of people in a parking lot in Dallas and a child accidentally shot herself in Missouri; butt...
MORE GUNS MAKE US ALL SAFER! DONCHA KNOW?
We have reached the point where there is almost 2 guns for every man, woman and child in this country. If there was even a SHRED of truth to the, "more guns means less crime" line of utter bullshit, we would be completely crime free in this country.
Right, but your ignoring a lot of things, like strong arm robberies, rape, burglary, assault, Completely crime free?
Did you just try to make a joke?
Would you rob, rape or assault someone with them holding a gun in your face? Thanks for helping me prove my point.
PROVE YOUR POINT!!! You gotta be KIDDING!!!
You just proved MY point...
In fact that's exactly what one of the gun researchers found out when interviewing criminals... Criminals DO NOT want to deal with a person with a firearm, they avoid them at all costs... Take the guns away from law abiding citizens and then only the criminals will have guns, and you have successfully turned all law abiding citizens into potential victims...
If I was a criminal, would I commit a violent crime against someone holding a gun on me? no, I think I would run the other way which most criminals readily admit to...
Not unless I wanted to get shot in the face. Was there some point you were trying to make for "NOT" carrying a gun?
I think MrFrost was pointing out that if "more guns" decreases crime; then since there are 2 guns per person in the US, the crime rate here should be near zero.
Butt, since having a shitload of guns doesn't really prevent crime, maybe having fewer guns in circulation could help.
Denver is another liberal "led" sanctuary city with a muzzled police force and lax prosecution of criminals.
"Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns."
"Remember...when seconds count, the police are only minutes away."
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Yep, denver is a shithole complete with all the liberal necessities, such as rampant crime, homelessness, drug use, trash, beggars, homeless camps, rat infestations, etc. Drive through denver on I25, drive north or south, and look at all the trash and crap next to the center barrier. It looks like a third world shithole. Dem policies and dumbass voters have really put denver in a hole.
I've lived here most of my life, and it started its slide into being a shameful shithole under Mayor Webb. Won't go downtown anymore...passing it by on Park Avenue, Speer Blvd, and 14th Ave.
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Seattle as well, with only half a police force that is in handcuffs... Election time is coming so they are clearing out some of the camps, (especially the ones on or near the elementary school playgrounds) but the homeless advocates and drug dealers are having a shitfit...
That's why I got out of Oklahoma. Went back for a funeral and it felt really oppressive...
You wouldn't believe how bad homelessness has gotten in OKC. Nothing like that in NYC...
The likes of me? Lol, i have/had no idea where you live and i really don’t care, nor have i ever done something as brainless and stupid to tell you where to live.
What makes you think i live in denver? You know the old saying about assumptions?
.
I’ve lived along the front range for quite a while, never in denver, no thanks. Webb made denver a sanctuary city and it took off from there.The slide really accelerated under hickenlooper and his “road home” fiasco which only made the homeless problem worse. I can’t remember the last time i was in downtown denver. I didn’t like going there even before all the blm/protest bullshit started. I drive through denver on my way to and from work and that’s enough for me.
I’m not sure why anybody would want to be a police officer in seattle, or any other liberal shithole for that matter but am thankful some are will to do it. Could you imagine what these cities would be like without LE?
Escape from NY comes to mind as an accurate portrayal of the results... and we actually observed exactly that with the "Chop/Chaz" thing they did a while back...
The defund the police movement here in Seattle coupled with the Vax mandate firings served to reduce the SPD to half what it was before the movement... And that was rated as only 2/3rds of what they really needed.... I believe they are down to about 600 officers for a city the size of Boston which most law enforcement analysts claim needs at least 1500 officers..
The last year saw the loss of over 300... Either retiring or moving to other Departments.... They don't respond to property crimes anymore just take a report over the phone, the response time to anything other than a violent crime is in the hours, that's if they respond at all... Shoplifting and theft is defacto legal given the prosecutors refusal to charge and judges refusal to incarcerate... Marijuana is legal by law, hard drugs are legal buy the declarations of the District Attorneys refusing to charge...
Catch and release is the program here... If you can catch them...
I got a kick out of the chop/chaz experiment. These were, for the most part, people who have never built, created, developed, owned, or maintained anything of substance in their lives and they felt they could operate their own little slice of civilization. They couldn’t even agree amongst themselves. Lol. Needless to say, it ended how i, and most, thought it would.
as far as theft and the smash and grab bs, i would love to see retailers, especially the big chain retailers, pull out of these cities. Just shut it down. Leave these idiot politicians with a severely dwindled tax base and let the cities rot. Maybe then people will start to vote these morons out?
Five murders, two of which the "Protestors" refused to allow police/medical services to get to, they could have been saved, three very public rapes, innumerable burglaries robberies, several arsons, yeah it was wonderful... the Seattle mayor trying to buy off one of the gang members who was a self described "Leader" of the thing... (I believe it was several hundreds of thousands of dollars, and yeah it was actually paid then it promptly disappeared)
Microsoft has threatened to leave, Amazon is leaving, downtown is beginning to show many vacant business's, that comes from the city council's war on business and their "Head" tax on their employees.... Yeah, big business is the enemy, that's a hell of a slogan for a city council...
And it's spreading to the neighboring cities....
My understanding of Marxism used to be from books, Now it's from watching it in real life... The book depictions don't do it justice...
Apparently you've at least been there a few times. My apologies for assuming that you lived there. I was going on the way you bad mouthed it
And [yes...Deleted] People like you who like to trash liberals
So you've never lived in Denver but feel informed enough to tell everyone how trashy Denver is.
That would be like me telling everyone how wonderful Pittsburgh is but I lived a good 90 miles away in the woods
“So you've never lived in Denver but feel informed enough to tell everyone how trashy Denver is.”
that’s right, i’ve never lived there but have worked in and around denver since ‘93. So yeah, i have seen enough to know that denver has become a shithole.
Hey...I don't much care for it, either but I'm not a big city person. My husband was born and raised in Denver and he loves it but his family all live there. I prefer the country myself I just wish I wasn't surrounded by bible thumping trmp supporters
On that I agree with you. I've been saying for a long time that it's much too late for America and Americans to change their persona concerning guns. Either leave everything the way it is because restrictive gun laws will never pass in the USA, and the thought of Americans surrendering their guns as was tried in Australia is laughable. The only other thing that could be done is to issue guns to every person in America over the age of 12 and have no restrictions as to where they could be worn in hip holsters, such as in schools or places of worship because after all I think we all know that mass shootings have taken place in such places. That way at least everyone has a chance to defend themselves, but be prepared for a national massacre and a reduction in the population that would have made the pre-spirits Ebeneezer Scrooge proud of America.
I saw a movie once where only the police and military had guns......
It was Schindler's List.
yeah, there are always facts that drive history, and get ignored at the same time...
This is one of them..
Oh, BTW, what is the history this little fact drove?
The creation of the state of Israel... "Never Again", is the motto isn't it?
Yes well, I saw a movie once where everyone was armed and it was Idiocracy!
You must have confused that with another movie... Idiocracy Wiki - IMDB
I don't see a whole lot of guns there, just idiots...
Difference is your example was a science fiction fantasy movie where as my example was actually based on history...
Gun control in Germany was why they were able to do all the evil things that happened.
Only partly... the biggest reason was fear... fear of the unknown black shirt showing up at your door...
Yes, it was a movie. It would not have been relevant in the movie to show that partisans had guns and used them, or even indicate that there WERE partisans. There are also movies about partisans during WW2 who had guns and used them. Try doing a search of movies about WW2 partisans and you might be surprised by how many come up.
Guns don't make people violent and guns don't make people stupid. Take away the guns and people will still be violent and stupid. We're seeing that on commercial airline flights.
Blaming guns is just another cheesy excuse to avoid doing one damn thing about the underlying problem.
Just what is the underlying problem? Do you know what it is? Do you have a solution?
If gun aren't a problem easy access to them is!
The democrat government policies of thinking money will solve everything... Stopping that would be a start
That does not even make any sense at all unless you are talking about gun buy backs, which have been very effective elsewhere...
Right, I don't know what your reading, historically gun buy backs don't get any more guns off the street, 90% of the guns bought back are unwanted, old, broke, or in some fashion non-functional-non-repairable... It's an easy legal way to dispose of junk... that's the history in this country, most gun advocates laugh and giggle when your side touts buy-backs as effective... It only represents how clueless they actually are..
Well, the only thing I can offer are opinions to consider and think about. I admittedly see the world from my own viewpoint so my opinions are shaped by my own horizon.
Seems to me we are losing the ability to mature into adults. People seem less able to cope with disappointment. People seem to have childlike unrealistic expectations. People seem less able to confront adversity and disappointment with what used to be called grit. As a society, we seem to be devoting more effort and resources into avoiding disappointment than anything else.
IMO learning to cope with disappointment is an important part of growing up and becoming an adult. And that is one ability we seem to be losing.
Of course, what is happening is more complex. But it's something to think about.
Guns aren't that easy to get...unless you buy from a criminal...who doesn't obey gun laws anyway
Then what would you put in its place? How you going to solve gun violence? You can't take one solution (however empty it is) off the table and have nothing to replace it.
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Rigorously enforcing the LAW... how about that.... we have the examples currently fresh as to not following or undercutting the law...
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Have you ever been to Florida? There are places in Texas that will give you a gun for buying a car. Not easy to get? You cannot be serious, Greg.
I was referring to lawful sales and transfers in Colorado...share your knowledge of gun laws in other states, including yours
Of course you can. Silly to think that throwing money at something for years without significant results is magically going to change now.
And WHY can't we stop throwing money at problems as if that money is being used effectively?
It took me all of 20 minutes to buy a handgun in Virginia. And they apologized that it took that long - the computer system for background checks was sluggish that day.
No waiting period?
No.
Interesting... I thought most liberal states stood for long waiting periods...
The waiting period thing depends mostly on state law, and in some cases the dealers own personal policy , federal law says that it is up to the dealer to decide to go through with the transaction or not if the BGC doesnt come back within a 3 day time frame , some dealers may get the check back immediately but decide to hold for the full 3 days before they complete the transaction . and that is not illegal because of burden of proof ..
I know Mark It was just interesting to me cause Virginia has been touted as such a liberal state... Then to find out it has such a conservative policy on buying guns... well, it's interesting... {chuckle} We here in WA have to wait seven days and the BGC never seems to get back to the dealer before we go and pick up the weapon... it's almost a sham....
When she said that I looked it up and the article, which I wish I had kept, said it can be 20 minutes to 3 days depending on the store and their policies and the load on the background check system. Like Mark said. I found that quite interesting too.
The same way that you solve other violence. Here's a good example of a solution to the murder problem (not just murder involving guns but all murder). While the quotation is attributed to Thomas Jefferson, I tend to doubt that it actually was said by him. The wording sounds too modern. However, even if he wasn't the originator, it aligns with his views and it is a proper, effective and lawful method to be used.
That too would also depend on the area of any given state , i would be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts , that 20 min wait was not in an area considered wholly liberal .
i ran into that when i got my derringer , wyoming is a pretty red state , but the dealer stated the check had not come back , for me that was unusual, after the second day , i went in told them if it was not in by the end of the business day to cancel the purchase , i then went and did some shopping , the guy behind the counter chased me down to say the check was good and i could take the derringer home .havent bought any firearm from them since , but if i get the inkling they are doing something like that i simply say cancel the sale , that works most times , even if they declare they have the right to a 3 day wait , i agree with them and tell them i have the right to cancel the sale too .
As I've said elsewhere, Virginia is not all that liberal. Our state legislature is generally pretty close to an even split, seesawing between Republican and Democratic control. And we're a state with a lot of hunters, so our gun laws tend to be pretty lenient.
Gun buy-backs? As I said elsewhere, even THINKING about gun buy-back in the USA is LAUGHABLE.
well i always thought they were laughable because there was no criteria , if it looked like a gun it counted , condition didnt matter , servicability ( could it even fire?) from what i understand they even did away with even checking to see later , if the gun if it worked was even used in a crime , have heard that people got their vouchers for bb guns ...
If they want to get serous about a buy back ( it isnt really a buy back because they never owned it anyway) , they would have to start going fair market value of whats brought in , if its scrap metal thats the price they get , if its functionable , one can always look up online what their going price is .
what will be funny is if they ever try to do it with those "ghost guns" we will see people going out to their sheds , slapping galvanised pipe and some plugs , mounting it to a 2x4 and turning that in . 2 bucks in junk and they get a 100 dollar voucher ....old school 50s and 60s zip guns .....
LOL TTGA, you're right. As Arlo Guthrie sings in Alice's Restaurant....
Buzz, it was JBB who brought up gun buy-backs, I thought I did a pretty good job of explaining why they don't work... Shouldn't you have directed this at him?
He's singing about military recruiting and what they are looking for... what does that have to do with what to replace liberal policies with if you don't mind me asking?
I wasn't disagreeing with JBB, I was agreeing with you.
So it was directed at JBB... Thank you for the clarification my friend
My reply was to TTGA about who quoted Jefferson (and apparently agrees with him) about killing.
But that's not a Jefferson quote, TJ didn't say anything of the sort... a thorough search by me of Jefferson's papers online doesn't reveal any such word combination full or partial... The quote search engines don't even recognize it.. The best I can come up with, (and only place it is found) is on any number of gun advocacy website forums, undoubtedly created by a poster there...
It's not TJ's style, It is not his beliefs, nor is it in the type of words he was using of the period...
That wasn't a quote attributable to Thomas Jefferson in any way shape or form... In fact I highly doubt it's attributable to any of our founders...
Hamlet; act 4, scene 4, line 40. {chuckle} and yes it fits to a "T"...
They "ran" a background check, did I miss something, what else do you want them to do?
I neither said nor implied they should do anything else.
My comment was in reference to Greg claiming that
and
In Virginia, they're easy to get, legally.
I'm curious. Why, exactly, are you implying that I wanted them to do anything else, when nothing in my post indicates as much?
Thanks for the correction, NWM.
LOL, NWM, I know damn well an ant hiding in the corner of your room wouldn't be able to escape your scrutiny.
Where I live, you just go to a local "Turkey Shoot".
After the contest, the "good old boys" in the parking lot open their trunks (or move a tarp in their pick-up) and start selling and trading guns. Their prices are great and no background checks are required since they are person-to-person sales. They have everything you need to become a mass murderer (AK-47s, AR-15s, semi-auto handguns, shotguns and plenty of extended magazines). They may even have illegal shit.
And Turkey Shoots are fun for the whole family!
They won't shoot anyone either.
What an amazing insight. Who would have ever thought of that?
If the kid is scribbling on the walls then take away the markers. If the kid is throwing toys then take away the toys. If the kid is playing with matches then take away the matches.
What happens if we keep treating adults like children?
Crossbow .....
Now im just being an ass.
Sorry brother, pointing out a fallacy isn't being an ass...
Nerm , i think the point your making is you punish the kid thats doing tthe wrong , not all the kids , something some dont get .
Why do Americans love guns? Maybe it's because America WANTS its people to love guns. Isn't America the Policeman of the world? Doesn't America get involved in wars, if not provoking or starting them or doing political moves that cause wars in other counties? Doesn't America have the greatest budget for its military, more than double any other nation's, to maintain a huge trained fighting force that is trained to use guns, and arms manufacturers that are necessary to keep the American economy afloat? Don't worry Nerm, nobody will EVER be able to change America's gun-love.
Didn't China invent gunpowder? Weren't Chinese firearms in use 1,000 years ago?
Norinco has been selling clones of US M-16 and AR-15 rifles on the international market for decades. Norinco arms have been banned in the US but the Norinco CQ is available in Canada.
Here's a link that's blocked where I am located but maybe you can view it:
China has played a part in spreading cheap guns around the world. China loves guns too; they're profitable exports.
Norinco , makes or did make up until the mid 80s , one of the best clones of the M-14 , right down to the cutout in the stock for the select fire switch . only problem with them though is the tempering/heat treating of the receiver , not quite up to snuff .... but if you got your hands on one and sent it in and had it redone at a reputable arsenal , it was smooth .
norinco ammo was some of the cheapest on the market, and not as dirty as some of that russian ammo, but an EC from the first bush , stopped the flow of chinese ammo ( leaving the russian stuff alone ) along with the guns in 87 or 88 i think , 20 round box of norinco ammo for a .223 was like a buck and ahalf to 3 bucks at the time .
First of all that's twisting the topic. The concern here is the citizens having guns and loving their guns and the unlikeliness of their giving them up, not so much the manufacture and sale of guns wherein I'm sure China is an amateur compared to the USA. Maybe you should take a look at the amount of gun violence in a nation that has about 4.5 times the population of the USA as compared to that in the USA. Nobody runs and hides in China when they hear a motorcycle backfire like they did in NYC.
scmp is blocked in the USA, the world's bastion of free speech? Well, don't feel badly, I can't open it either, and unfortunately not being able to open a lot of sites is one of the detriments of living in China, and it's getting worse.
You mean this South China Morning Post?
Doesn't look like it's blocked in the bastion of Free Speech....
The rest of your posting about how nice china is compared to the USA I am giving appropriate response to...
“The concern here is the citizens having guns and loving their guns and the unlikeliness of their giving them up,”
hey Buzz, i own several guns. They were all legally purchased, they are all well maintained, they all function properly, and they all are locked in a substantial gun safe (657 lbs bolted to a concrete floor) when not in use. My guns are no threat to the law abiding public. They have never shot anybody. They have never been involved in a crime. Why should i, or anybody else that holds gun ownership to the same standard, give them up?
I know it's strange, but for some reason the link posted by NERM wouldn't open for me, but in caps, SCMP.com, I can open the South China Morning Post with no problem.
If I have said how "nice" China is compared to the USA it has probably been about the fact that China doesn't have the gun violence that the USA does, and I don't have to be so concerned about the virus as I would be in the USA, and that I love the culture and traditions that have developed over a 5000 year history, and that I can live very comfortably here on a meagre pension as compared to the pauper's life I would have to live in Canada or the USA. Since your government and media and some NT members don't hesitate to demonize China, I can be the one voice in the wilderness who provides a tiny bit of balance to their bashing and attempts to correct the biased misinformation and outright lies that I see. I guess you've not seen my postings on the things that I loved about the USA, and the things that I have criticized about the Chinese government. Go ahead give what YOU THINK is an appropriate response.
Not everyone in the USA is the same as you, not everyone has the same decent personality, not everyone in the USA is as careful with their guns as you are. But unfortunately, enough are different enough to make a very big difference.
Buzz, My friend, I have said many, many times in the past that one nations people are just about the same as any other nations people, it is not the citizens of nations that hate each other, but the governments of nations that hate each other and propagandize their own citizens into that hate...
Most Chinese do not want war with Americans as most Americans do not want war with Chinese... Everyone has a right to live where ever they want... I know from some discussions with you about your experiences as an expat Canadian westerner living in China and it's not all a bowl of cherries... I wish it wasn't that way but I am in no place to judge... It's not easy being a libertarian living in western Washington State at this time either... but you have no frame of reference either so who are you to judge... et tu, who am I to judge...
As far as the Chinese government and it's policies those are fair game to the extent one understands those policies the same as your opinion of the US government, Canadian Government or, given some of your clearly stated opinions, the Israeli government...
You have a right to your opinions just as any of us do... And a right to express your disagreement with ours and visa-versa...
That is my sincere opinion and anything I might express as an opinion about any other nations people needs to be considered in the light of that filter first before all else... I assume that other feel the same way.. wether they are or not is upon them to establish not for me to decide... but once established appropriate response will be offered...
I'm happy you enjoy where your living, "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is not an American phenomenon, it is a human race phenomenon... Desired by all peoples everywhere... We find it where we find it and enjoy it when we do...
I can say more but I know you get the gist.. and you have heard it before..
Peace brother... enjoy your life...
Anoon gazoo ..they are the same gun ownership requirements that are law here.
My brother has a gun safe and has to be bolted to a concrete floor. Once installed the cops are required to come and check it out. No dramas far as he/we are concerned...plus we don't require anything in the line of AK 15 or other automatics that seem to be in abundance in the US.
Hell if you can't hit something after two shots forget it. No one has to give up their guns if they follow the law and legal requirements...
They have a voluntary gun hand in every year here, no questions asked. They get thousands handed in...and are destroyed.
It works for us...and after the Port Arthur massacre there are more guns in Australia than ever before.
I agree that some members of society should not have access to guns but i do not know how to make that happen. There are tens of millions of people in the US that are very responsible gun owners. These owners use their guns for sport, recreation, self defense, and some just like to collect them. Is it fair to punish them for the actions of criminals?
even if all guns were confiscated and gun ownership was declared illegal i think that would create a black market for them. Street drugs have been illegal for decades yet their use continues. Anybody that wants an illegal drug can get it. I think it would be the same for guns. Plus, does anybody think that criminals will voluntarily turn in their guns? I don’t.
so what that leaves us with is a society where only criminals will have guns and the law abiding citizen will be at their mercy. Like i said, i don’t know what the answer is but i am confident that seizing guns and declaring them illegal will not work.
Shona, Evn'n brother... there is no such thing as an AK-15... And there are no Automatic weapons for sale in the US unless you have certain special licenses and are basically not acquirable anymore by the average person...
You cannot believe the media on weapons, type and function, cause they lie to support a cause.. and there is so much direct evidence of that in plain sight that it frankly is hard to understand how someone can believe that the USA has an abundance of automatic weapons floating around in the public's hands... That is just not the case at all..
The rest of what you say is great, I'm glad it's working for you... but...
More guns than you had before... interesting... {chuckle} Don't know how the gun grabbers are going to like that statement... It kinda leans against their perfect gunless utopia paradigm doesn't it.. {chuckle}
“they are the same gun ownership requirements that are law here.
My brother has a gun safe and has to be bolted to a concrete floor. Once installed the cops are required to come and check it out”
hi shona, where i live having a gun safe bolted to a concrete floor isn’t the law but it is common sense if one has that option. And i realize not everybody has that option given their situation but their are other methods one can use, and should use, to safeguard their guns from theft. Common sense goes a long ways.
Correction; the AK-15 is a NEW Russian assault rifle first issued to Russian special forces in 2018... highly doubtful it has or will ever reach civilian hands....
Anoon nowhere..sorry my stuff up re the AK.
Yes there are more guns here now than ever before. But the population has also gone up.
Still thousands get handed in each year. No longer wanted for whatever reason.
No we are far from gunless or utopia here...
The number of hunters and sport shooters has declined dramatically over the years. What Australia sees is more guns in fewer hands.
New University of Sydney figures on gun ownership in Australia:
All four of my grandkids have weapons, mostly for varmits and they all live in NSW.
Anoon Kavika. Yep that sounds pretty well spot on re the article..
Still have our feral element re guns though...
Excellent your grandkids shoot and exterminate any vermin here. Anything in the vermin line, less is best.
Hi shona, it's always good for members on NT that are not familiar or live in Australia to fully understand the local scene in OZ when it comes to weapons.
The introduced species have devasted the local wildlife and we are experiencing the same thing in Florida and throughout out the US. The introduction of fox to OZ has had a huge negative impact on the local critters.
A paywall is just as effective at limiting free speech as is government censorship. Websites are blocked in the US by paywalls. Free speech is a commercial commodity; money is speech. We are only allowed the speech that we can afford. The unwashed masses can buy free speech by selling their privacy for marketing purposes. Thank you, neoliberals.
Amen Brother!
The People's Liberation Army loved their guns. Mao Zedong depended upon guns to fight a civil war. Only after that civil war established a communist government in China were guns banned. And guns were not banned to protect the people.
The United States is not communist China. The United States will not become anything like communist China. And attempting to view the United States through the lens of Chinese history would only provide a grossly distorted understanding of the United States.
What you've been pointing out is that the United States isn't anything like China. That's correct. But you need to understand that's deliberate. The people of the United States do not want a country that is anything like China.
Ah, yes, history. Neither you nor I live in history, do we? I doubt that anyone in mainland China now WANTS China to be like the USA. Most of the Chinese people who left and took up residence in Canada and the USA were from Hong Kong, or else they were Chinese billionaires (and I understand that there are now more Chinese billionaires than American ones - wow, I didn't think Communism even ALLOWED anything other than "from each according to their abilities to each according to their needs") because they are probably concerned about what the government did to Jack Ma, reducing his many billions of net worth to maybe about 20% less billions. Don't American billionaires buy homes in other countries as well, like a castle in Scotland, or a vinyard in France? And don't American billionaires keep most of their assets offshore in tax havens? I actually had a client who did, he had a multi-million dollar business in Toronto and he opened up a branch in Shanghai. But I'm verbally wandering here, so back to the point. Of course the USA is not Communist China, and I'm sure it never will be, but a big difference between China and the USA is that China is NOT trying to change the USA to be a Communist country or to prevent it to be the World's policeman with military bases all over the world. Some of China's military IS away from China - China is the greatest provider of manpower to the United Nations Peacekeeping force.
Do you know that ordinary police in China do NOT carry guns, only special SWAT teams do and although I've seen and even been friends with police here. I have never yet seen one with a gun. Even bank guards do not have guns, and the only actual guns I've seen in China in my more than 15 years here was once when I was out walking and came across an area for parking military vehicles and it was guarded by soldiers with rifles, and once when a bank money delivery van stopped in front of a bank I was just leaving two guards got out with rifles.
Lol... There are millions of Chinese immigrants to the US, not to mention the booming birth tourism where thousands of Chinese travel to the US each year to secure American birth citizenship.
The number of Americans immigrating to China is, of course, miniscule by comparison.
Nobody is stopping people from leaving if they want to, the population of China is still increasing.
What the hell is the matter with some of you? Is the amount of gun violence in America pleasing to you? You criticize me for being concerned about it? My son and his young family live in Wisconsin and I'm damn well worried about their safety.
We have no problem with you being concerned for your son and his family, heck many of us are just as concerned about ours as well...
But we, the gun owners at least, are not worried for them out of concern for guns, we are worried about them out of concerns for criminals with guns... Knowing as we do, (many with personal experience) that criminals do not like citizens with guns and generally will leave citizens alone if they think they have guns on their persons... Would rather have our children knowledgeable of and experienced with firearms as we know that is the quickest and surest way to ensure their greatest chances for safety in this criminal filled world...
Yes China is strict about gun possession, but they are even more strict on criminals... so China doesn't really have the criminal problem we have due to lax enforcement of the laws... I mean we do want a complete context don't we?
We are the same as you, have similar concerns and worries, there is nothing wrong with us as compared to you... we just have a different belief in how to go about resolving the issues... One you happen to disagree with cause your experience is in a completely different environment that is not at all similar to ours...
Wether the environment you live in is superior to the one we live in is debatable and nothing but opinions... and is irrelevant to the central issue here... America isn't China... and that isn't going to change anytime soon...
We don't mind you expressing your heartfelt fears for your relatives living in this country, heck I would feel the same for any relatives of mine living in china... Just stop blaming american citizens who have nothing to do with it... or taking your frustrations out on us...
We don't deserve it..
And your problem is that owning guns is more important than doing anything meaningful to stop the gun violence.
If I'm blaming anyone, it is not those who are willing to do whatever it takes to stop the gun violence, it's those who believe if you give an inch to do so makes them think they're going to lose their whole arm, and they're the reason the gun violence will never stop.
As for "blaming", I'll stop blaming America and Americans when they stop blaming and demonizing and trying to contain a totally different much more ancient culture society for exercising its laws and traditions and for not allowing itself to be forced or enticed to mimic America's "perfect" democracy.
My problem is that I own guns... Got it...
Your blaming those who are unwilling to do what YOU think they should be doing.. What ever gave you the right to be judge and jury over anyone else, AND what makes you an expert on the causes of gun violence?
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The United States is not communist China. And the people of the United States recognize that a government doesn't ban firearms to protect the people. There are too many examples, communist China included, where guns were banned to protect the government.
The proliferation of guns in the United States accelerates every time the government attempts to ban guns. Gun control activism is a direct cause of the proliferation of guns in the United States. When politicians demand gun bans there is a spike in gun sales. It's as predictable as the weather. The reason there are so many guns in the United States is because the government has threatened to ban guns. Activists have been threatening to ban guns for so long that now guns have become a habit, a cultural norm.
Gun control activists making greater efforts to use government to ban guns means there will be more guns in the United States. It's as simple as that.
More guns, more gun violence, more murders, you're welcome to your way of life. Frankly, these days, I'm perfectly happy knowing, as Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention used to sing, "It can't happen here". In NON Communist America, seems to be about half the people unhappy with whatever government is in power, whereas in Communist China, more that 90% of the people are happy with the government in power. Give them bread and circuses, and now that extreme poverty has been eradicated and there isn't anyone who doesn't have a decent roof over their heads, food on the table, free education up to high school graduation, decent health care, ease of transportation, it's unlikely that there will be a revolution here. The government isn't perfect here, but I'm yet in my more than 15 years to know of a person who has been unhappy. Guns? Who needs guns? Who even WANTS guns?
You're in America, Charger. I meant in China, But I can understand your feelings, because I know that in America it's dangerous to NOT have a gun.
It's not dangerous for most people.
But consider, Buzz, that there are many people here who hunt, either as a hobby, or to eat. When I was growing up, money was tight. We ate out of the family garden, and what Dad brought home from the woods. I didn't much care for venison (still don't), but it was often the only meat in the house. And there are a lot of people worse off than I ever was. I knew I'd never go hungry, even if I didn't like what was on my plate. Lots of kids can't say the same. Also consider that many hunters give away their kills to the poor, if they take more deer (or whatever) than their families can eat. Some local meat processors either donate their services to butcher the meat, or do so at steep discounts. A lot of folks would go hungry if hunters weren't able to hunt.
I have CCW permit and Last time I had a gun outside of the house was bringing a new one home from the store.
Other than that I have not carried one in over 2 years. I would have taken one with me on some trips, but I had to drive through about 20 miles of Maryland.
It did not take but a few minutes to get approval at the store because CCW permit proves background
I never got a CCW. I considered it, but the only reason I even bought a gun was because of a neighbor's vicious dog. And when it came down to it, I decided I couldn't live with shooting a family dog, even a vicious one, and carried bear spray instead. Never had to use that, either. Animal control got sick of being called about the same dog multiple times (he bit a neighbor) and made the owner pen him up.
My Brother in law has the CC permit. Has to get it renewed every so often. Every year I think.
Yeah, more city people are buying guns. Even more liberals are buying guns.
Well, the people who need guns and want guns probably could come up with gun controls that would be acceptable. It's the people who don't want guns (and don't know anything about guns) driving the gun control politics. As long as extremists on the left try to use government to ban guns (like in China) there are going to be more guns.
The problem isn't gun control. The real problem are the nutters trying to turn the US into China.
Yes, Sandy, that IS unfortunate that so many people in America would go hungry if it were not for handouts from those having guns. It's even more unfortunate that there are so many people in the western hemisphere who are suffering so much that they are banging at the door of a nation where there are people who need handouts from hunters with guns and there are so many without a roof over their heads, let alone enough money for a decent meal.
More of this China is better bullshite? I mean just who is flooding over Chinas southern border risking their lives to get into communist China? WHO? point them out!!!
Nobody that is....
Communist China is so great that almost NO ONE is busting the door down to live there... So I guess world opinion that the USA IS the place to be... So many want to come here and live and be damned about the law bedamned about their health, safety and wellbeing, to them being in the US is the greatest thing they could accomplish for their children...
Show me where the world views china as that to be place?
Never have I said China was perfect. I have posted criticisms of the Chinese government and officials, but if some they do works, then I consider it a good thing. Never have I said I hate the USA. Never did I say I hate Americans. I'm sick of it and I don't intend to be friends of anyone who exaggerates everything I've said into making me a pariah. I'll have nothing more to do with such a person, nor do I want him posting on any of my groups. Did I not say not to get into politics with me?