Supreme Court halts COVID-19 vaccine rule for US businesses

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  vic-eldred  •  2 weeks ago  •  89 comments

By:   YahooNews

Supreme Court halts COVID-19 vaccine rule for US businesses
The Supreme Court has stopped the Biden administration from enforcing a requirement that employees at large businesses be vaccinated against COVID-19 or undergo weekly testing and wear a mask on the job. At the same time, the court is allowing the administration to proceed with a vaccine mandate for most health care workers in the U.S. The court's orders Thursday during a spike in coronavirus cases was a mixed bag for the administration's efforts to boost the vaccination rate among Americans.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court has stopped the Biden administration from enforcing a requirement that employees at large businesses be vaccinated against COVID-19 or undergo weekly testing and wear a mask on the job.

At the same time, the court is allowing the administration to proceed with a vaccine mandate for most health care workers in the U.S.

The court's orders Thursday during a spike in coronavirus cases was a mixed bag for the administration's efforts to boost the vaccination rate among Americans.

The court's conservative majority concluded the administration overstepped its authority by seeking to impose the vaccine-or-test rule on U.S. businesses with at least 100 employees. More than 80 million people would have been affected.


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Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Vic Eldred    2 weeks ago

More bad news for Joe Biden and the radical left!

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1  Ozzwald  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    2 weeks ago
More bad news for Joe Biden and the radical left!

More bad news for this country and the radicals who refuse to get vaccinated.

 
 
 
Ronin2
PhD Quiet
1.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1    2 weeks ago

Sorry, Biden is not able to pass un-Constitutional EOs/EAs any more than Obama was. Obama stated repeatedly he couldn't use an EO/EA to change immigration laws; and Biden stated repeatedly he couldn't issue a vaccine mandate. Both went ahead an did it anyways.

Glad the Supreme Court stopped Biden's power grab. Now they need to smack him down on his EO extending the Renters Moratorium. The Supreme Court already ruled on that; but Biden defied them anyways. Maybe Biden needs to have Fascist branded on his forehead, so he gets a constant reminder of what he is- and what he can't do.

Democrats seem to think they are above the Constitution and the Law

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1.2  Ozzwald  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1.1    2 weeks ago
Democrats seem to think they are above the Constitution and the Law

And yet it was the republicans who tried to overthrow the government....

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Senior Principal
1.1.3  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.2    2 weeks ago
overthrow the government

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1.4  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.1.3    2 weeks ago

Armed assault on the government?  Check

Threats to remove/kill government representatives?  Check.

Attempt to illegally supplant an elected leader with a non-elected person?  Check

If you think that's not trying to overthrow a government, you need to recheck your dictionary.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Senior Principal
1.1.5  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.4    2 weeks ago
"The chief prerequisite for a coup is control of all or part of the armed forces, the police, and other military elements."

You and a couple others around here need to get educated.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1.6  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.1.5    2 weeks ago
You and a couple others around here need to get educated.

You are the only one referencing the word coup.  Perhaps you should go back to remedial reading.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Senior Principal
1.1.7  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.6    2 weeks ago

Perhaps you should read some posts by other members of NT. And a coup is the only way a government is going to be overtaken short of a civil war. Had the morons been successful in getting Pence to do their bidding, it would have gone to the SCOTUS and have been remedied from there. They couldn't get anything CLOSE to a take over doing what they did. Use your head.............................

 
 
 
squiggy
Sophomore Quiet
1.1.8  squiggy  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.2    2 weeks ago

Trump, Trump, Trump...

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1.9  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.1.7    2 weeks ago
Perhaps you should read some posts by other members of NT.

Why?  You are replying to my comments, why would I care what anyone else has written somewhere else at a different time?  Hmmmm?

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1.10  Ozzwald  replied to  squiggy @1.1.8    2 weeks ago

Trump, Trump, Trump...

Yup, he does do a good job of highlighting the hypocritical nature of many right wing commenters.  Doesn't he?

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Senior Principal
1.1.11  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.9    2 weeks ago

Because you posted this............

You are the only one referencing the word coup. 

Did you forget that while you slept? Or just conveniently overlook it?

Hmmm infuckingdeed........LMAO

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Principal
1.1.12  Dulay  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.1.5    2 weeks ago

Include yourself on that list Jim. 

Here, I'll rely on Beau to explain it to you:

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.13  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Dulay @1.1.12    2 weeks ago

We absolutely count on you to speak for yourself. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Senior Principal
1.1.14  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.13    2 weeks ago

Quite frankly I would prefer she would speak when spoken to but alas, I guess that is not to be. Don't know what she is saying to me as I have full utilization of the ignore function and it is glorious. LMAO

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Principal
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.16  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.1.14    2 weeks ago

I have to be frank too. We can have a bit of fun here, but I must give credit to someone who has the guts to comment on unpleasant facts. Make no mistake about it, this is not a pleasant time for the left.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.17  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Dulay @1.1.15    2 weeks ago

Hello Dulay. It's me Vic. How does Jan 6th enter into this?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Masters Participates
1.1.18  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.2    2 weeks ago
And yet it was the republicans who tried to overthrow the government

Did you forget about the "Russia Collusion Investigation"?

But lets try to say on topic.  

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Principal
1.1.19  Dulay  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.17    2 weeks ago

Well gee Vic, Ozzwald's and Jim's comments about the events on Jan. 6th, that's HOW and should be obvious to anyone reading this thread.

They remained UNFLAGGED by you or anyone else. 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Principal
1.1.20  Dulay  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @1.1.14    2 weeks ago

Quite frankly I would prefer she would speak when spoken to but alas, I guess that is not to be.

Quite frankly, I couldn't care less. 

Oh and BTFW, Ozzwald wasn't speaking to you Jim. Try practicing what you preach...

Don't know what she is saying to me as I have full utilization of the ignore function and it is glorious. LMAO

Yet I must still inhabit space in your head since you can't seem to keep posting comments ABOUT me to others.
jrSmiley_84_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Principal
1.1.21  Dulay  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.17    2 weeks ago

Oh and I find it utterly hilarious that Jim gave you a thumbs up on your question AFTER posting this:

Perhaps you should read some posts by other members of NT. And a coup is the only way a government is going to be overtaken short of a civil war.

Reference to Jan. 6th.

Had the morons been successful in getting Pence to do their bidding, it would have gone to the SCOTUS and have been remedied from there.

Reference to Jan. 6th.

Oh and utterly false. Here are the 'Options for Jan. 6th' cited in the Powerpoint released by Meadows:

VP Pence seats Republican Electors over the objections of Democrats in states where fraud occurred
VP Pence rejects the electors from States where fraud occurred causing the election to be decided by remaining electoral votes
VP Pence delays the decision in order to allow for a vetting and subsequent counting of the all the legal paper ballots.
Nothing about the SCOTUS there, but there IS a hell of a lot more about federal takeover of the election. Like having US Marshall's and the National Guard involved in confiscating and 'protecting' paper ballots AND a 'Trusted counter' being appointed by Trump. 
They couldn't get anything CLOSE to a take over doing what they did. Use your head.............................

Reference to Jan. 6th. 

Oh and BTFW, the Sedition Conspiracy statute doesn't require them to have succeeded. 

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
1.1.22  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1    2 weeks ago

Covid has been curing that kind of stupid for two years now by killing them off.

 
 
 
squiggy
Sophomore Quiet
1.1.23  squiggy  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.10    2 weeks ago
Doesn't he?

No. It was a comment clearly, (to any lucid person) about your deflection into a coup in a story about covid. Good thing your friends brought in Larry from Youtube for a professional opinion. 

jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_88_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.1.24  bugsy  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.4    2 weeks ago
Armed assault on the government?  Check

Threats to remove/kill government representatives?  Check.

Attempt to illegally supplant an elected leader with a non-elected person? 

Where is your proof for ANY of these accusations?

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
2  XXJefferson51    2 weeks ago

Praise God from whom all blessings flow…

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  XXJefferson51 @2    2 weeks ago

In this case, through the Constitution.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
2.1.1  cjcold  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1    2 weeks ago

In this case, through anti-science far right wingers.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
2.1.2  Greg Jones  replied to  cjcold @2.1.1    2 weeks ago

afb011322dAPR20220113034503.jpg

stg011122dAPR20220111014517.jpg

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
3  Sean Treacy    2 weeks ago

No surprise. The President can't just dictate rules. We have a Congress and it creates laws. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Sean Treacy @3    2 weeks ago
The President can't just dictate rules.

What if it seems like the right thing to do?


 We have a Congress.

And it would seem that we are still a nation of laws.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
3.1.1  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.1    2 weeks ago

I got to say I am a little bit surprised. The precedent was set in Jacobson v. Massachusetts, in 1905:

"Whereas, smallpox has been prevalent to some extent in the city of Cambridge and still continues to increase; and whereas it is necessary for the speedy extermination of the disease that all persons not protected by vaccination should be vaccinated, and whereas, in the opinion of the board, the public health and safety require the vaccination or revaccination of all the inhabitants of Cambridge; be it ordered, that all the inhabitants of the city who have not been successfully vaccinated since March 1, 1897, be vaccinated or revaccinated."

The liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint, nor is it an element in such liberty that one person, or a minority of persons residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have power to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State.

It is within the police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law, and it is for the legislature, and not for the courts, to determine

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
3.1.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.1    2 weeks ago
The precedent was set in Jacobson v. Massachusetts, in 1905

That was a State, not the federal government.  No one disputes a state can pass a vaccine mandate. Moreover, Congress didn't pass a vaccine mandate. 

, and it is for the legislature, and not for the courts, to determine

Yes, exactly. And the legislature has not passed a vaccine mandate. 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.3  Nowhere Man  replied to  Sean Treacy @3.1.2    2 weeks ago
It is within the police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law, and it is for the legislature, and not for the courts, to determine

It was initiated by executive order... so under the law it is an administrative act... and an overreach of the administration... since congress has not given him the authority, and neither given the department of health and human services the authority... Although I do believe that he probably would have gotten another vote on the court if he had ordered DHHS to execute the mandate rather than OSHA....

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
3.1.4  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Sean Treacy @3.1.2    2 weeks ago

I knew you would say this, but here from our history:

But in the 1890s and 1900s, that actually happened: Squads of men would enter people’s homes in the middle of the night, breaking down doors if necessary, to inject people with smallpox vaccines.

Legally speaking, the Supreme Court resolved the issue of mandatory vaccinations in 1905, ruling 7-2 in Jacobson v. Massachusetts that they were constitutional.

The Constitution “does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint,” Justice John Marshall Harlan, known for defending civil liberties, wrote. “Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”

Please explain to me how all 50 states had mandates for smallpox because this happened in all 50 states.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
3.1.5  Sean Treacy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.4    2 weeks ago
he Supreme Court resolved the issue of mandatory vaccinations in 1905, ruling 7-2 in Jacobson v. Massachusetts that they were constitutional.

  You are focusing on irrelevant facts. 

The issue is not whether the government can mandate vaccinations in the workplace.  It can.

The issue is whether the President can order it.  He can't without Congressional authorization. Since Congress didn't authorize mandatory vaccinations when it passed OSHA, Biden can't use the power delegated to him through OSHA to do it.

If Congress passed a mandate tomorrow, it would pass scrutiny.   The only issue is whether Congress authorized the mandates, or not. 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.6  Nowhere Man  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.4    2 weeks ago

It's not that mandatory Vaxxing is unconstitutional, it's that the police power of a state is not automatic, it has to be legislatively permitted... And it is not something that OSHA has been permitted by congress.... It is something that DHHS has been permitted but under extreme circumstances.... But Biden didn't choose to use DHHS for his authority.. He chose OSHA... Probably cause OSHA has stronger enforcement powers... it's the same reason that Inslee chooses Labor and industry to enforce his mandates here in Washington, they can put a business out of business fairly quickly where Health and Human Services cannot...

It was always about force, not need...

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
3.1.7  Sean Treacy  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.3    2 weeks ago
o believe that he probably would have gotten another vote on the court if he had ordered DHHS to execute the mandate rather than OSHA...

Which is why I side with Thomas on the other case. The rationale for allowing the health worker mandate seems arbitrary and not tied to an actual statutory delegation. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
3.1.8  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Sean Treacy @3.1.5    2 weeks ago

Biden could have just EOed it and that would have sidestepped congress. He didn't. 

And still, you seem to have ignored the fact that all 50 states had a smallpox vaccine mandate. Are you going to tell me that didn't come from up on top?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
3.1.9  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.6    2 weeks ago
It was always about force, not need...

That was the same argument for both smallpox and polio. There was a need. We no longer suffer from these diseases, do we?

Hence why in 1905 the court said:

The liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint, nor is it an element in such liberty that one person, or a minority of persons residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have power to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State.

It is within the police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law, and it is for the legislature, and not for the courts, to determine

 
 
 
Transyferous Rex
Freshman Participates
3.1.10  Transyferous Rex  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.1    2 weeks ago
for the speedy extermination of the disease that all persons not protected by vaccination should be vaccinated,

That's where the rubber meets the road, isn't it though? The vaccine isn't really exterminating anything. I have a friend in an induced coma, on a vent, who received 2 doses and the booster. I'm getting tired of reading headlines, mocking an unvaccinated person's death. The people I know that have died or have been hospitalized, by chance I'm sure, have mostly been vaccinated. The one guy that was not has diabetes that he does not control. My mom died from a blood clot after receiving her second dose. My dad, who is "up to date", went to urgent care just today, tested positive for covid last friday or saturday. 

I have family members with liver issues (apparently a hereditary deal). Their doctors strongly advised against the vaccine because of the liver issues. So, when I read this:

The liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint, nor is it an element in such liberty that one person, or a minority of persons residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have power to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State.

I'm reminded that our system is actually set up to protect the minority from the rule of the mob majority. Otherwise, my family, with compromised livers, may be subjected to a concoction that may have a greater chance of killing them, than does the virus it allegedly prevents. Although, the CDC is abandoning the notion of prevention, and falling instead on the claim that it lessons the blow. So do many other things, and that is why a mandate for these vaccines, that don't prevent or exterminate shit, doesn't fly.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
3.1.11  Sean Treacy  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.8    2 weeks ago
n could have just EOed it and that would have sidestepped congress. He didn't. 

He did EO it. He did sidestep Congress and that's why his mandate was vacated. 

nd still, you seem to have ignored the fact that all 50 states had a smallpox vaccine mandate.

And all 50 States can pass a Covid vaccine mandate.

Are you going to tell me that didn't come from up on top?

Yes. 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.12  Nowhere Man  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.9    2 weeks ago

And the difference between Small Pox and Covid is orders of magnitude in lethality... If this was two years into a smallpox pandemic without a vaccine or inocculation half the people on the planet would be dead right now...

That is the difference, fear driven need rather than health driven need... Argument could be made that mandates would have been more palatable legally when they were first approved, when there was still question about the true death rate, but they weren't... we now have a lot clearer data on the actual death rate (government pumping the numbers notwithstanding) that it is now argued in some circles that it will be no more lethal than the flu... and to be honest it seems that after the initial introduction of covid to the population it is really not that lethal as compared to say small pox, the example you use...

That's the difference between actual need and fear.... The early high death rate was mostly in the elderly who were mostly immmuno compromised (not counting the government aiding that elevated death rate as well) variants have spread that lethality out a bit amongst the general population yes but NOT at the rate small pox would have killed... Not even close...

No way should fear dictate anything coming from government... Especially concerning the use of it's police power...

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
3.1.13  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Transyferous Rex @3.1.10    2 weeks ago

First of all, all vaccines have side effects, some bad for a small minority of people. This one is no different. 

The people I have known who have died were not vaccinated. Annicodal claims are just that. (btw, I am very sorry for the loss of your mom). My parents who are 80 and 88 have been fully vaccinated with zero side effects. My father in law is 93 and the same. All are fine.

There was more to that ruling saying that people who had reason not to be vaccinated would be excluded. Obviously, doctors should weigh in.

So do many other things, and that is why a mandate for these vaccines, that don't prevent or exterminate shit, doesn't fly.

Don't know why you can't express yourself civilly, but I will answer. The longer a virus goes unchecked the more it will mutate. The more it mutates, the less a vaccine will work. Had we all gotten our acts together earlier, the vaccine would have been more effective. They are now working on a more universal vaccine. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Senior Principal
3.1.14  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.13    2 weeks ago
First of all, all vaccines have side effects, some bad for a small minority of people. This one is no different. 

You can say that again. My wife got the J&J vaccine and was sick for four days after. Last Friday she got her booster and was sick through Monday and I mean sick. Vomit and the whole nine yards. She told me the other night she is NOT going to get anything else to do with this in her body. It was that bad. Spent the whole weekend and Monday in bed.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
3.1.15  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.12    2 weeks ago

I realize that I am putting myself out there on this seed. I doubted I would ever change anyone's mind here. 

I never talk from fear. but aside from bird flu, which so far, they have been able to stop before it gets out into the general population, covid is not akin to flu. The average death rate from flu in the US is about 40K a year from the flu. Covid killed 515K from March 2020 to March 2021. That is over 10 times the death rate. Also, both MERS and SARS were covids, MERS had a death rate of 32.7%. That is a very big number, and it was all caused by mutation. The longer this version has to brew, the longer it has to mutate and the outcome is unpredictable. 

The people I have known who died were not old and not sick, but just unvaccinated. Obviously, like most viruses, it will take out the old and ill first, but that would apply to the flu too, and that does not kill over half a million people in a year.

I agree that fear should never dictate policy, but I think the numbers speak for themself. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
3.1.16  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.1.14    2 weeks ago

Jim,

Maybe it was just that particular vaccine? But you who almost died from covid should have a different take on it. Btw, I hope your wife is feeling better.

That being said, I got the MMR to go back for my Masters (yes mandated by the university) and I was sick as a dog for 2 weeks solid. So it is not only the covid vaccine. 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.17  Nowhere Man  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.15    2 weeks ago

And this is the problem sweets as a brand new coronoa virus the mutations are going to come quick until it settles down into a specific genome.. so yeah the death rate is going to be high, the current dominate strain doesn't appear to be as lethal as two of the previous strains but ten time more transmissible... Commercial drug providers have provided strain specific vaccines that don't seem to work as well against the latest edition and furthermore the newest strain has already shown a resistance or tolerance to them which actually works against vaxxing if you think it through.. Correction; puts vaccination in more of a palliative treatment status rather than a prophylactic treatment.... And going back thru the history this wasn't unforeseen....

At first it was very unpredictable, Agreed.... It is less unpredictable now given the intense study it has been under but it can still mutate... Vaccination clearly does not prevent it's mutation which is clear as well...

Why are certain political parties so set on Vaccination as the one true answer to something that is now in the wild and is going to take it's course however it is going to turn out? The Army has released info that hopefully will resolve all of this but conservative opinion it is still at least a year away if not two... And that is only if they will be willing to release it worldwide... 

At this point vaxxing doesn't seem to stop it, but does seem to at least offer some, (if greatly reduced) protection and like Omicron, we don't know if the next mutation, if there is one, will tolerate the vaxxed environment even better than omicron has...

The time to mandate vaccines was when the vaccines were first approved, at this late date it seems that vax mandates appear to be the proverbial dollar chasin the dime type of response....

Not what we really need...

Do the numbers really speak for themselves I believe they do, they show bad management all round and a complete lack of common sense in the rush to help or resolve the situation... One thing different from this outbreak from all the rest?

All the previous ones, the scientists were allowed to work it out quietly do the job they were hired for.. This one went off the rails into politics... Let me remind you when the highest presidential ratings Trump ever had was during the earliest part of this when he was allowing the scientists to do the reporting... 70+% approval ratings if I remember... it is when election politics became involved when it went off the rails....

As long as it was confined to a medical issue and they were allowed to do their thing everything was fine...

The politicians screwed the pooch on it starting with the democrats making it a campaign issue... It's been a political fight ever since... And the current administrations handling of it has NEVER reached the approval ratings that Trump enjoyed in the first two months of it...

That is a very sad testament to our political system...

The politics of fear, where is Franklin Roosevelt's wisdom when we needed it...

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
3.1.18  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.17    2 weeks ago

Viruses are highly unpredictable. They always mutate, given enough vectors (live beings), to infect. That is why vaccination rates matter and that is how we got rid of smallpox. Polio still mutates but the vaccine still works. This all goes to show how hard it is to predict how a virus will evolve. In the case of omicron, it binds better to ACE2 receptor of cells than previous versions of the virus. Luckily, it is a weaker virus. As they developed a more comprehensive vaccine, there is comfort in knowing that the vaccines we do have, prevent death and new treatments help those who have not been vaccinated. But it is those who have not been vaccinated that keep these mutations coming and we will not know if the new mutation that arrives will be worse or better than the one before and that is a gamble I personally don't want to take. Vaccine mandates worldwide as they were with smallpox and polio would end this virus. 

But it is these mandates that have become political. Granted, I don't think that the CDC did a great job with its messaging as of late, but I also don't see them as fear-mongering, just very mixed messaging. 

In my mind, I have long ago removed the political aspects from this. I just wish everyone else would and do what is in the best interest of humankind.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
3.1.19  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.18    2 weeks ago
"I just wish everyone else would and do what is in the best interest of humankind."

Come on, Perrie, you live in America, the land of the free and home of the brave.  As long as  individual rights and freedom trumps what is in the best interest of humankind you will be forced to live with ANY kind of virus for the rest of your life.  Even Ebeneezer Scrooge saw the only solution...

R-C.ca5e3e32ef9e2b6851522833b32b5d96?rik=HvDX1d%2f9BNMhDw&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwelchwrite.com%2fblog%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2014%2f11%2fchristmas-carol-07.jpg&ehk=imJke1A3EeWE4SWBrUeXJTG4BYyQOohaEKslBu7c7xI%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
3.1.20  Ender  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.19    2 weeks ago

Well, I guess with freedom comes the freedom to be able to be a complete moron....

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.21  Nowhere Man  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.18    2 weeks ago
In my mind, I have long ago removed the political aspects from this. I just wish everyone else would and do what is in the best interest of humankind.

I agree with this sentiment girl, let the science play itself out, which was what Trump was trying to do... And got hammered for it...

We would be much much better off if the politicians would just let it go and let the scientists resolve it just like they have every other new virus...  But in this atmosphere of pure political hate there is nothing one will not weaponize for use against the other....

I wish it could be that way but with the government medical departments being weaponized against the opposition the way the politicians have made them, there is no resolving it... The war is on... Which just proves a view I've held for decades now, Politics doesn't care about human kind noir des it cate about nationality of even it's own citizens... Politics is organized hate...

And we are doomed to suffer under it as long as we allow it the power it thinks it has over us...

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.22  Nowhere Man  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.19    2 weeks ago
Come on, Perrie, you live in America, the land of the free and home of the brave.  As long as  individual rights and freedom trumps what is in the best interest of humankind you will be forced to live with ANY kind of virus for the rest of your life.  Even Ebeneezer Scrooge saw the only solution...

Right, Freedom in America, the rights of the individual are going to cause us all to die..., if that is the case why are so many people trying to get here to live here?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
3.1.23  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.22    2 weeks ago

Don't ask me, ask P.T.Barnum.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.25  Nowhere Man  replied to  Ender @3.1.20    2 weeks ago
Well, I guess with freedom comes the freedom to be able to be a complete moron....

I would rather be a free moron than an intelligent slave...

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.26  Nowhere Man  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.23    2 weeks ago
Don't ask me, ask P.T.Barnum.

{chuckle} Yeah, "This way to the Egress"

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
3.1.27  Ender  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.25    2 weeks ago

I would rather be neither...

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
3.1.28  Ender  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.22    2 weeks ago
if that is the case why are so many people trying to get here to live here?

Money...

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
3.1.29  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.25    2 weeks ago

dangerous freedom ( which is only dangerous to those intent on infringing freedom ) , vs , peaceful slavery ....

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
3.1.30  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @3.1.29    2 weeks ago

Why is it that everything has to be so fucking extreme?  Even in America, the so-called "Bastion of Freedom", the people are not absolutely free, there are lots of curtailments of freedom - laws, regulations, by-laws, precedents decided by the SCOTUS that limit freedoms, e.g. shouting fire in a crowded theatre, so why is it that anything that isn't absolute "freedom' have to be slavery?  Obviously morality and common sense aren't limitations.  Don't you think there is a universe in between?  Americans love to demonize China thinking everyone is enslaved and can't possibly be happy unless they enjoy all the same freedoms as Americans.  I would never have chosen to live in China if I were treated like a slave.  But I can do anything I WANT to do and everything I NEED to do, and if I couldn't I would have gone back to Canada YEARS ago.  Wait, there is a caveat, I would have liked to be able to open Youtube and now IMDb, but there are alternatives so I can survive without them. 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.31  Nowhere Man  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.30    2 weeks ago
shouting fire in a crowded theatre,

Yep, Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes, "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic."

Which was dicta, (open conversation that means nothing where it comes to anything) of course and is in no way any law that was ever passed..

Time to do away with this falsehood...

(used by everyone who loves censorship)

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.32  Nowhere Man  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.30    2 weeks ago

Buzz, I'm very happy that you love it where you live and view it as superior to anywhere else.. 

Aren't we entitled to the same considerations?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
3.1.33  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.31    2 weeks ago

So go ahead and shout "FIRE" in a theatre since you feel you have the freedom to do so, and let's count the number of people who die, like the ones who died at that rock concert recently.  You won't, because you exercise common sense, but IMO the refusals to wear masks and/or get vaccinated by so many prove to me that there are an awful lot of people in America who DON'T have common sense.

By the way, don't laugh, but The Atlantic is blocked in China.  

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.34  Nowhere Man  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.33    2 weeks ago
By the way, don't laugh, but The Atlantic is blocked in China.  

Sorry Brother, I NEVER laugh at censorship......

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
3.1.35  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.32    2 weeks ago

PLEASE don't be yet another person who puts words in my mouth that I never said.  I NEVER said that China was better than anywhere else.  It may be different than other places, and I'm happy here, but I NEVER said it was better or superior.  If I could afford to live in Canada on my limited pension income even CLOSE to the very comfortable lifestyle I enjoy here I would go back to my homeland.  

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.36  Nowhere Man  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.35    2 weeks ago

Using the word superior wasn't an indication of approval or rejection, you've told me your circumstances and it was meant as superior for YOUR circumstances alone... Personally Washington State is a beautiful place to live in many ways, but I sure could live like a king on my paltry pension if I say moved to Iowa or Arkansas maybe Idaho... 

I think I understand....

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
3.1.37  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.36    2 weeks ago

Okay - understood.  We do live in a modern building in a relatively new superior upscale middle class neighbourhood with all conveniences, shopping, restaurants and subway station and 3 university campuses within walking distance in a big city, so we, too, need not locate in a country village either to afford our lifestyle. 

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Principal
3.1.38  Dulay  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.25    2 weeks ago

Goal achieved. 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
3.1.39  Nowhere Man  replied to  Dulay @3.1.38    2 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Principal
3.1.40  Dulay  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.39    2 weeks ago

removed for context

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Principal
3.1.41  Dulay  replied to  Nowhere Man @3.1.39    2 weeks ago

[removed,  taunting of other member getting a ticket

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Senior Principal
3.1.42  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.16    2 weeks ago

Well her booster was the Moderna so either one of them made her sick. Guess she just has no tolerance. And I am troubled that her attitude is such.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1.43  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.1    2 weeks ago
I got to say I am a little bit surprised. The precedent was set in Jacobson v. Massachusetts, in 1905:

I thought so too, but I think Sean has it right. While the Constitution does not mention it (a presidents authority to force vaccinations) states can, in the absence of federal law issue such mandates.


It is within the police power of a State to enact a compulsory vaccination law, and it is for the legislature, and not for the courts, to determine

Yes, clearly states have the right.

Congress would need to make a law placing public health and safety over individual rights. Then maybe I wouldn't have to listen to Tucker Carlson talk about the right to refuse a vaccine. And maybe New Yorkers could walk down the street in safety as well.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1.44  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.8    2 weeks ago

The Court's vaccine-mandate rulings are about separation of powers: The executive may not exercise powers Congress has not given.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
3.1.45  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.16    2 weeks ago

I had to take the typhoid shot in BCT and it made me sick as a dog for 24 hrs as it did to a lot of us.  That is why the shot was scheduled on a Sat so that we had Sunday (our day off from training) to ride it out.  Years later I got a strain of typhoid that the shot did not protect against.  The shot made me sicker than the actual disease did.

 
 
 
Transyferous Rex
Freshman Participates
3.1.46  Transyferous Rex  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.13    2 weeks ago
Don't know why you can't express yourself civilly, but I will answer.

Well, I'm sorry to offend Perrie, truly. I actually thought that was a civil post. 

There was more to that ruling saying that people who had reason not to be vaccinated would be excluded.

Sounds good on paper. In practice, people are being forced to leave their place of employment, regardless of whether or not there are legitimate exclusions. My wife's company falls under the CMS. They have run several good nurses off over the mandate. They are testing, only the unvaccinated, on a weekly basis. Vaccinated employees, who are out with covid, receive paid time off, and are not being forced to use sick leave. Unvaccinated employees, out with covid, use sick leave...if they are out of sick leave, they get no pay. The irony in this practice is this. Over half of the employees there are unvaccinated. Only one non-vaccinated person has ever tested positive and been forced to stay at home. The rest of the people, out with covid, have all been vaccinated. This is the exact reason the nurses who left, left in the first place. Disparate treatment, which, in their minds, was not justified based on what they were witnessing.

Had we all gotten our acts together earlier, the vaccine would have been more effective.

We have gone from a claim that they prevent infection to a claim that they lesson the effects of the virus once you get it. Which goes to my point above, these do not prevent or exterminate. To allege that mutations are the result of the unvaccinated, I think, goes too far. Who is to say that some instances of mutations were not caused by exposure of the virus to a vaccinated person, and the first patients with these variants didn't pick said variant up from a vaccinated person? I don't think you can say, with certainty, one way or the other. Likewise, which of the variants have originated in the US? Even if we were 100% vaccinated here, the vaccinated are still picking up and transmitting the variants, that have come from abroad. Not my area of expertise, but everybody acknowledges that the overuse or misuse of antibiotics leads to antibiotic resistant bacteria. Apparently, according to every discussion I have read about covid and the vaccines, that same principle doesn't apply here, it is the unvaccinated who are putting everyone at risk, and certainly there is no chance that the vaccines, that admittedly do not prevent transmission or infection, are contributing to mutation of the virus. 

(btw, I am very sorry for the loss of your mom).

Thank you. The reality is, I encouraged my parents to get vaccinated. It seemed clear, even early on, that the older you were, the more risk there was. I question the timing of my mom's vaccination though. She had covid, without incident, a couple of months prior. They vaccinated her ahead of a check-up. That, I don't understand. What's the purpose of vaccination that close in time to an infection? I don't see it, but it was done as a matter of course, at that point. Either get vaccinated, or don't come in...disregard any notion that you likely have antibodies. As for side effects, I fear the truth is being hidden or ignored. I posted a link to UK data here a week or so ago. The number that really caught my eye was the non-covid mortality rate per 100,000 in the vaccinated vs unvaccinated populations. The vaccinated population's non-covid rate was significantly higher than the unvaccinated crowd's, and higher than historical numbers. 

And, that's my real beef with the entire situation. RSV still kids more kids, but we are jumping off of a cliff over covid, ignoring stuff I think we should be paying attention, and promoting a one size fits all approach. I understand that my experience is anecdotal, but so is everyone else's. Anecdotal evidence is still evidence. We have simply chosen to ignore certain evidence. The CDC's policy of not acknowledging breakthrough cases, unless the result was hospitalization or death, is a good example. The proverbial tree falling in the woods, with nobody there to hear or see it...didn't happen. We don't have accurate numbers because of that policy. We are treating people differently, based on vaccination status. My wife's experience is what it is. She is subjected to testing, once a week, and she is ostracized by her employer for not being vaccinated. The same employer is paying several dozen vaccinated people to sit at home with the virus though. Anecdotal? Yes, but not the only instance of the same. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
4  Sean Treacy    2 weeks ago

I originally thought the Court got this right in that there was a statutory delegation broad enough to justify the mandate for healthcare workers while there is clearly no such delegation under OSHA. After reading Justice  Thomas' dissent, I think they got the healthcare worker mandate wrong.   It can't be justified by the Medicare/Medicaid statutes. 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
4.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  Sean Treacy @4    2 weeks ago

I can understand Thomas's dissent, but then they let it stand which is a good thing actually.... No the Medicare regs isn't a good reason to let it stand I agree... The insurance liabilities are though... Besides most who have refused the mandates in hospitals have either left of their own choice or been fired (the few that remained) I think that illustrates the prime issue quite fine... No mandate will ever override a persons free choice, and that is what is important here...

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
5  Nowhere Man    2 weeks ago

Actually I like the ruling, blocks the mandate for private businesses but leaves it in place for the medical providers...

EXCELLENT!!!!

They can't get out from under the mandates contributing to the heavy loss of medical staffing.... AND,  With state governments begging it's fired non-vaccinated employees to come back....

It really highlights what force applied to ones medical decisions causes in a society.... People want to choose what they do to their bodies not be forced...

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
5.1  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Nowhere Man @5    2 weeks ago
Actually I like the ruling, blocks the mandate for private businesses but leaves it in place for the medical providers...

Now all that remains to be seen is just how many of those providers decide to walk away from the profession , its not like they are slaves or anything ....

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
5.1.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @5.1    2 weeks ago

Very true Mark, the way I hear it, a lot have walked away already.... Especially senior nursing staff...

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Principal
5.2  Dulay  replied to  Nowhere Man @5    2 weeks ago

Um, hate to break it to you NWM but the vast majority of medical providers ARE private businesses. So, the SCOTUS carved out specific private businesses to comply with the mandate. 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
5.2.1  Nowhere Man  replied to  Dulay @5.2    2 weeks ago
Um, hate to break it to you

It was limited to those that take federal money, Hospitals that don't, don't suffer the mandate anymore...

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
5.2.2  JBB  replied to  Nowhere Man @5.2.1    2 weeks ago

What hospitals do not take payments from Medicare or Medicaid?

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
5.2.3  Nowhere Man  replied to  JBB @5.2.2    2 weeks ago
What hospitals do not take payments from Medicare or Medicaid?

Doesn't matter to the ruling itself, estimates are that it further reduced the number of employees covered by mandates from 16 million to 10 million... Which hospitals they were has no effect on the ruling... I'm sure they know which they are though...

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Principal
5.2.4  Dulay  replied to  Nowhere Man @5.2.1    2 weeks ago

Deflection.

As I said, the vast majority of medical providers are private businesses, yet the SCOTUS upheld the vaccine mandate on them.

I'm pretty sure that there isn't a Hospital in the US that doesn't accept Medicare/Medicaid.

There ARE some Doctors that do not though they are few and far between. 

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Expert
5.2.5  Nowhere Man  replied to  Dulay @5.2.4    2 weeks ago

IMPASSE...

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Principal
5.2.6  Dulay  replied to  JBB @5.2.2    2 weeks ago

A very good question that will go unanswered. 

 
 

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