Mental-Health Reform Is a Bipartisan Issue

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  vic-eldred  •  one month ago  •  126 comments

By:   Stephen Eide (WSJ)

Mental-Health Reform Is a Bipartisan Issue
Policy can reduce the risk of another mass shooting like Uvalde. Nothing can eliminate it entirely.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T




Recent mass shootings in Uvalde, Texas, and Buffalo, N.Y., have prompted urgent calls to change the culture. That's harder to do than changing policy, which is hard enough. Changing policy requires dealing in specifics, and also probabilities. Policy works within constitutional parameters to reduce the risk of harm, not to eliminate harm entirely.

Debates over mass shootings have a reputation for devolving into partisanship. Democrats, favoring gun control, accuse Republicans of opportunistically raising mental-health questions as a diversion tactic. It's partly true: Republicans do neglect mental-health reform in ordinary times. But there are achievable policy measures that could be pursued to reduce the risk of mental illness-related violence.

In fact, mental-health reform stands as one of the great bipartisan success stories of our time. The 2012 Newtown, Conn., mass shooting motivated Congress to investigate the failures of American mental healthcare. The final results of this investigation became law in the 21st Century Cures Act, passed overwhelmingly by Congress and signed by President Obama in December 2016. It created a new assistant secretary position to oversee the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, a federal agency long gone astray. The new law also facilitated state-level expansions of assisted outpatient treatment, one of the most reliable community-based programs for stabilizing people with serious mental illness.

Sens. Bill Cassidy (R., La.) and Chris Murphy (D., Conn.) are currently trying to revive that spirit of bipartisanship with their reauthorization of the 2016 act. But their current bill could be strengthened by taking on two major reforms that were considered in the wake of Newtown but didn’t end up becoming law: a repeal of the so-called IMD Exclusion, which restricts Medicaid’s ability to fund inpatient psychiatric care, and allowing families of mentally ill adults more access to their loved one’s health information by weakening Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act restrictions. Dealing with these bits of unfinished business would help increase the rate of treatment for the seriously mentally ill, which is—or should be—the goal of mental-health policy.

Mentally ill people in treatment are less violent than the untreated. Increasing the rate of treatment would reduce mental illness-related violence generally. Most of the violence committed by mentally ill people is more mundane than spectacular mass shootings. Preventing such slaughter would require a more precise intervention—targeting a certain form of violence committed by a certain class of mentally ill people—than mental-health policy can supply.

The same uncertainty prevails with leading gun-control proposals. It is easier to focus on barriers to preferred changes—such as political stonewalling and judges’ alleged misinterpretation of the Constitution—than on what those changes would accomplish if the barriers didn’t exist.

One way to work on changing the culture is to force a debate over policy. The policy changes we’re willing to enact reflect who we are as a culture. A serious culture demands more from policy debate than virtue signaling, even if that means having to accept changes that promise only marginal benefits.


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Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Vic Eldred    one month ago

I'll say it again: There is more at play than the issue of a weapon to these shootings.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2  Buzz of the Orient    one month ago
"Nothing can eliminate it entirely."

Except if nobody had a gun. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2    one month ago

Good luck with that.  Do you honestly thing the criminal element will adhere?  

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.1  JBB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.1    one month ago

How about we remove guns from homes where felons or those on antidepressants, antianxiety meds and psychotropic drugs or domestic abusers and old age dementia sufferers abide?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.1    one month ago

It may be an impossible utopian concept where you are, but I'm living it.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.1.3  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JBB @2.1.1    one month ago

That's already law.  And yet they still get the weapons.  Do you think more legislation is the answer?  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.4  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.2    one month ago

You have the safety that we don't. It came with a terrible price.

 
 
 
squiggy
Sophomore Quiet
2.1.5  squiggy  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.2    one month ago
but I'm living it.

The Uighurs aren't. They are where they are at the point of a gun.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.1.6  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.2    one month ago
It may be an impossible utopian concept where you are, but I'm living it.

Hongkongers just don't know a good deal when they're offered it.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.1.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.4    one month ago

A terrible price?  You mean I can't access YouTube?  Vic, I've been living in China for almost 16 years and I think I'm a little more familiar with what life is like here than someone who has never stepped one foot in this country and only knows it from the biased stories they read.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.1.8  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  squiggy @2.1.5    one month ago

I'm not a Uighur, and I assume you're not a prison inmate in the nation with the highest rate of incarceration in the world.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.1.9  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.1.6    one month ago

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but like it or not, in 25 years HK will be part of mainland China under the complete control of Beijing.  Maybe being eased into that situation and getting used to it rather than having it happen as a shock 25 years from now is preferable.  And guess what?  The people in HK will survive, their life will not come to an end.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.1.10  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @2.1.1    one month ago
How about we remove guns from homes

I can support some red flag laws.  I'm not sure including antidepressants or antianxiety meds should be included.  Is there much correlation between the use and gun violence?  Antipsychotics and mood stabilizer use however, might be appropriate for denying gun possession.  I note that unfortunately, New York’s red-flag law didn't stop Payton Gendron in Buffalo.  Apparently, the mental health evaluation after his announced intent for  murder-suicide and wasn't specific enough for the police to seek a red-flag order.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
2.1.11  Sean Treacy  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.8    one month ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.1.12  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.9    one month ago
Maybe being eased into that situation and getting used to it rather than having it happen as a shock 25 years from now is preferable. 

Perhaps although that wasn't the agreement reached in 1997.  

The people in HK will survive, their life will not come to an end.

Indeed and they will likely live much better than the Uyghurs, Tibetans, or Mongolians.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.1.13  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.1.12    one month ago

How do you know how any of them live?  "Vas you dere, Charley?"  (Baron Munchausen)  

 
 
 
JaneDoe
Sophomore Silent
2.1.14  JaneDoe  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.1.10    one month ago
I'm not sure including antidepressants or antianxiety meds should be included.

Me either. I take an anxiety medication occasionally. It was prescribed to me for insomnia.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.1.15  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.13    one month ago

A beautifully filmed, lavish and funny fairytale that I enjoyed immensely.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.16  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.7    one month ago

The cultural revolution is not a biased story.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.1.17  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.16    one month ago

In case you aren't aware of it there have been a lot of changes in more than half a century.  Seems like there have been a lot of changes in America during that time as well.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
2.1.18  Ozzwald  replied to  JBB @2.1.1    4 weeks ago
How about we remove guns from homes where felons or those on antidepressants, antianxiety meds and psychotropic drugs or domestic abusers and old age dementia sufferers abide?

Add to that anyone found guilty of a violent crime, not just domestic abusers.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2    one month ago

I'm with you on that, but the democrats aren't going to get anywhere if they call Republicans names and make this a political issue. Treat those they need to change the 2nd Amendment with a modicum of respect and mountains can be moved..

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2    one month ago

Are you talking about the politicians or the members of NT?  Looking at the time, you may not get my reply to your answer until tomorrow.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.2  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.1    one month ago
Are you talking about the politicians or the members of NT? 

POLITICIANS

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.2    one month ago

It will get worse, and unfortunately I'm not sure I can follow that with 'before it gets better'.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.4  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.3    one month ago

Gun control was once the issue that democrats couldn't gain any traction on. This really may be the moment for them to get legislation on it. McConnell says that he is willing to consider it. If the dems can put the rhetoric aside, I think it can be done.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.5  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.4    one month ago

My opinion is McConnell isn't doing that because it's the right thing to do, he's doing it because of the midterms in order to neutralize the benefit the Democrats might get from it.  He'll only agree to minimal legislation so as to not lose the hard core gun advocates.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
2.2.6  Snuffy  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.4    one month ago

True, but the devil will be in the details.  I don't think they can get the votes for another gun ban so it will be interesting to see what can come of it. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.2.7  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.5    one month ago

You're absolutely right.  McConnell is always aware of the political consequences. 

He said, “I met with Sen. Cornyn this morning.  As you know he went home yesterday to see the family members and begin the fact finding of this awful massacre and I have encouraged him to talk with Sen. Murphy and Sen. Sinema and others who are interested in trying to get an outcome that is directly related to the problem. I am hopeful that we could come up with a bipartisan solution.”

McConnel signaled a willingness to talk but kept the scope narrow.

No reason not to and risk a sizeable win this Fall.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.2.8  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Snuffy @2.2.6    one month ago

McConnel will find a way to blame Democratic intransigence for the failure of a proposed bill that didn't directly deal with this shooting while appearing open to a deal, while people are angry.   He is a clever fox.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.9  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.5    one month ago

That's kind of a pessimistic outlook. I think McConnell wants to protect American children and as long as the democrats can avoid calling half the country "racist," we may finally get what democrats claim they want.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.10  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Snuffy @2.2.6    one month ago
True, but the devil will be in the details. 

It could be substantial. Maybe the assault rifle ban....maybe more.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Senior Expert
2.2.11  Gsquared  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.9    one month ago

Neither McConnell nor any republiGUN has the slightest interest in protecting children.  The only interest they have is gaining power in order to advance their donors' profits.

McConnell mentioning talking with Democrats is merely a feint and propaganda talking point.  He has no intention of actually doing anything.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Senior Expert
2.2.12  Gsquared  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.10    one month ago

Nothing is going to happen if it involves the republicans.  Nothing.  Especially an assault weapons ban.  It's all illusory.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.2.13  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Gsquared @2.2.12    one month ago
It's all illusory.

But we decide which is right

and which is an illusion.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.14  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.9    one month ago
"That's kind of a pessimistic outlook."

Of course it was.  I was talking about American politics.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.15  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.10    one month ago
"It could be substantial."

Oh, come on, Vic, substantial?  This is America, and you made me think of this line...

If you find yourself feeling useless, remember it took 20 years, trillions of dollars, and four presidents to replace the Taliban with the Taliban.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.16  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.15    one month ago

You have a point there Buzz. It is the great weakness of democracy.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.17  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.14    one month ago
I was talking about American politics.

We are a divided country. The working class vs the brainwashed.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.18  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.14    one month ago

"Sen.  Chris Murphy  (D-Conn.) said Sunday that a gun law passed by the Florida legislature following the Parkland school shooting was a “signal of what’s possible” when it comes to legislation that could be passed on the federal level.

During an appearance on ABC’s “This Week,” moderator  Jonathan Karl  ran down the intentions of the bill, which included raising the minimum age in which a person can obtain a firearm to 21 and banned bump stocks, noting that it was passed by a GOP-led legislature and signed by a Republican governor.

Karl asked Murphy if Florida’s state gun law could be a model for the Senate to follow.

“The Florida law is a good law and it’s a signal of what’s possible, right? It married together, changes to Florida’s gun laws. With some significant investments in mental health and school security,” Murphy said.

“I had a long conversation with Senator Scott last week and had him tell me the story of how they were able to pass that legislation, get Republicans to support it and also prove that Republicans could take on the gun lobby because the NRA opposed that measure, and still get reelected, which has been the case I’ve been making to Republicans for a decade.”

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.19  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.18    one month ago

Vic, IMO, VP Harris is absolutely right.  Citizens in a civilized country DON'T NEED and should NOT HAVE weapons of war.  Is it true that at the NRA convention they are actually displaying and selling MACHINE GUNS that can bring down a Blackhawk?  Why are assault weapons necessary other than to bring down a whole lot of people at once?  Are even the extremists in America intended to attack in the form of a whole army?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.20  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.19    one month ago
Is it true that at the NRA convention they are actually displaying and selling MACHINE GUNS that can bring down a Blackhawk?

I'm sure they are. The NRA is not as powerful as it once was. You are right, we shouldn't sell those weapons.


 Why are assault weapons necessary other than to bring down a whole lot of people at once? 

I don't know why anyone would want to own one. I don't know why we allow such weapons to be sold.


 Are even the extremists in America intended to attack in the form of a whole army?

The extremists in America now control the WH, the congress, academia and most of the media.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.21  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.20    4 weeks ago
"The extremists in America now control the WH, the congress, academia and most of the media."

As they have for almost 6 years.  Will he USA ever find its way back to sanity?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.22  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.21    4 weeks ago

Do you recall what happened to Socrates and the democracy of Athens?

Is that inevitably going to be the fate of democracy?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.23  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.22    4 weeks ago

Just be careful that religion does not overcome your democracy.  There will be no Plato's apology. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.24  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.23    4 weeks ago

I don't think we are in any danger of being overcome by religion.

Wasn't Socrates prosecuted for holding religious beliefs?

That may be where we are going.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.2.25  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.20    4 weeks ago
Why are assault weapons necessary other than to bring down a whole lot of people at once?
 I don't know why anyone would want to own one. I don't know why we allow such weapons to be sold.

From a vet's (my) perspective, it's about familiarity.  I didn't want to go through the process to purchase an M4.  At the time, I thought the next best thing was the AR-15.  While there are similarities, firepower is not one of them.  The AR isn't an "assault weapon" my any stretch.  Reality is, I found it to be a very cheap knock off of the M4's currently being used by the military (the AR isn't used by any military).  

I also purchased a weapon that IS used by the military.  I carried a Mossberg 590 during my last trip to Afghanistan and used it for clearing operations.  The 590 was far better than the M4 in these operations.  Again, my decision to purchase this was about familiarity.  I knew the weapon, it's capabilities and it's operation.  

I use both the AR-15 and 590 for hunting and home protection.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.26  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.2.25    4 weeks ago
I use both the AR-15 and 590 for hunting and home protection.  

Those are it's uses?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.2.27  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.26    4 weeks ago

Depends on who you talk to.  Many idiots think they are for "mass killing" of people.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.28  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.2.27    4 weeks ago

I've noticed that those who use those weapons for killing people have long histories of mental illness. The latest on Salvador Ramos now features a video of him grinning as he held up a bag of blood-soaked dead cats.




 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.2.29  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.28    4 weeks ago

That should have been an indication.  But because nobody want's to put in the work to get this person help it was ignored.  There were so many failures leading up to this an every other shooting.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.30  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.2.29    4 weeks ago

As I've said, there are 3 components to these tragedies. All democrats see is the gun.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.2.31  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.30    4 weeks ago

Democrats only see the gun because they think that is what they can control.  In their feeble minds, "eliminate the gun, eliminate the problem."  Too bad it doesn't work that way.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.32  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.2.31    4 weeks ago

They have never been able to move the needle on that issue. Many gun owners are single issue voters. This incident in Texas may be the straw that broke the camel's back.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.2.33  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.32    4 weeks ago
Many gun owners are single issue voters.

Looking at the Democrats and the left, they seem to be single issue voters.  Notice how everything drops when something else happens?  They are distracted too easy.  Look how many times there was a shooting and something else happens.  The shooting is dropped and forgotten.  This will be as well unless we keep in it in their faces.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.34  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.2.33    4 weeks ago

They have their single issue voters too. Have you noticed certain adult women that suddenly act insane when abortion rights are mentioned?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.2.35  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.34    4 weeks ago

I've noticed.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.36  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.2.35    4 weeks ago

Have you noticed that Canada is now doing something sensible about gun control - helps me to feel more secure about the safety of my daughter in Toronto.  Can't say the same about my fear for the safety of my son and his family in Wisconsin, living in a country where you need be wary of being shot if you're a kid in school, a person shopping for groceries, praying in a place of worship, just walking down the street or even sitting next to a window in your living room. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.2.37  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.36    4 weeks ago
Have you noticed that Canada is now doing something sensible about gun control - helps me to feel more secure about the safety of my daughter in Toronto

What's sensible about it?  They just disarmed law abiding citizens.  It does nothing to the criminal element.  Or do you honestly think that somebody who has no regard for the law will just change their mind because some putz politicians said so?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.38  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.2.37    4 weeks ago

Add being in a Tulsa, Oklahoma medical centre to my list.

So you're saying it DIDN'T work in the UK, Australia and New Zealand so what the fuck let's keep the cycle going - more guns so people can buy them to protect themselves, causing more guns for deranged people and criminals to use, in order to increase even MORE guns to be made and sold and the cycle grows and grows and the beat goes on and up and on and up without an end in sight. 

 
 
 
Gulliver
Freshman Guide
2.2.39  Gulliver  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.28    4 weeks ago
The latest on Salvador Ramos now features a video of him grinning as he held up a bag of blood-soaked dead cats.

That's not really mental illness.

It's not depression or schizophrenia or someone struggling with the fact that they are on the autism spectrum. That is a deranged individual with psychopathic traits.

The problem here, the trap here, that libertarians should be worrying about, is the opportunity being created for big pharma to ram medications down the throats of people who don't want them and perhaps don't need them.

Some people would benefit from access to mental health care that most of us don't have or don't know how to find. And most of those people aren't a threat to anyone. Mental health services will help them get on more productively and happily with their lives. And they should be partners in the decisions being made about their mental health.

Other people need to be flagged for their warning signs. 

And the biggest friggin' warning sign? Buying an AR15 and body armor.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.2.40  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.38    4 weeks ago

I'm saying it is not going to work in the US.  I honestly don't care about the UK, Australia and New Zealand.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.41  Tessylo  replied to  Gsquared @2.2.12    4 weeks ago
"Nothing is going to happen if it involves the republicans.  Nothing.  Especially an assault weapons ban.  It's all illusory."

They never do anything about anything unless it is to enrich themselves.  NOTHING.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.42  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.2.8    4 weeks ago
"McConnel will find a way to blame Democratic intransigence for the failure of a proposed bill that didn't directly deal with this shooting while appearing open to a deal, while people are angry.   He is a clever fox."

We see through these scummy republicans.  He is not clever.  He's a turd.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.43  Tessylo  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.36    4 weeks ago

Living in Wisconsin it sounds like they should fear more for their lives from gun violence if they're black.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.44  Tessylo  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.38    4 weeks ago
"So you're saying it DIDN'T work in the UK, Australia and New Zealand so what the fuck let's keep the cycle going"

But it did work there so I don't know what the fuck Jeremy is talking about and suspect he doesn't either.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.2.45  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @2.2.42    4 weeks ago
We see through these scummy republicans.

Unless you’re planning to move to KT to vote, your opinion, while interesting, is irrelevant.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.2.46  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.2.45    4 weeks ago

Right back at you.  Your opinion to me on anything is irrelevant.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
2.2.47  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @2.2.46    4 weeks ago

You’re so good with the snappy comeback.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.48  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.2.40    4 weeks ago

Of COURSE it's not going to work in the US.  The UK, Australia, New Zealand and now Canada are CIVILIZED countries.  Only two solutions that I can see:

1.   Issue guns and ammunition to every person over the age of 12, because it's so necessary to have guns to defend oneself.

2.   Nobody leaves their home unless they're wearing body armour, especially kids going to school.

Welcome to the middle ages...

R-C.4a46c35c7a26bcf4feb49946e1e126a6?rik=gWB6NpImX4Qb4Q&riu=http%3a%2f%2fcdn.historydaily.org%2fcontent%2f74411%2f70d08cab9b8805a784eab794e98cf6e0.jpg&ehk=GoIVpZRksxcD0jHrwJ%2b3pFFo5pJeP6EGXotMI1dX%2bE0%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.2.49  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.48    4 weeks ago
Of COURSE it's not going to work in the US.

So why push it? 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.51  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.2.49    4 weeks ago

I'm not pushing it, I'm suggesting alternatives.  My suggestion of armoured clothing is not so far-fetched...

American kids wearing Israeli-made bulletproof backpacks

The Bodyguard Switchblade has two ripcords the wearer can pull to release a chest protection unit that flips from back to front in a second.  (LINK) ->

 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
2.2.52  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.51    4 weeks ago

Alternatives that, by your own admission, won't work in the US.  Hence my question - If you know it's not going to work, then why push it?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.53  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.2.52    4 weeks ago

First of all I'm not PUSHING, I'm suggesting, and my first suggestion that everyone should have a gun to defend himself is not so far fetched since the most common excuse used by gun advocates is that people need guns to defend themselves, so why shouldn't EVERYONE be entitled to defend themselves?

My second suggestion of body armour is NOT unrealistic since as indicated in the link in my previous comment it's ALREADY being used by students in the USA, and there's no reason it can't also be made in smaller sizes.

If you're responding again, I'll reply in the morning - I'm going to sleep now.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.54  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.53    4 weeks ago

LOL.  Seems like my two suggestions are not so bad since nobody has taken the trouble to fault them except Jeremy, and I don't know why any gun advocate wouldn't think they are better alternatives to banning guns. 

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
2.2.55  Snuffy  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.54    4 weeks ago

Ok, I'll play...,

my first suggestion that everyone should have a gun to defend himself

Except not everybody should have access to a gun.  The very young, the mentally unstable, etc.  A suggestion that everybody should have a gun is just wrong.  Not sure why you would entertain that except as a sophomoric jab.  The right to self defense is what the 2nd Amendment is all about and has been confirmed by SCOTUS.  People are entitled to defend themselves, but not everybody should have access to a gun.

My second suggestion of body armour

No, that's not unrealistic.  They are already marketing armored backpacks for children, have been for a few years now.  The decision to wear some sort of body armor would be IMO a personal choice.  It's not 100% sure to prevent death but it could help if one so desires.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.56  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Snuffy @2.2.55    4 weeks ago

Okay, so you're saying that to defend themselves "everyone" should not include those who have emotional/mental problems (a common sense limitation) and although you do not indicate a lower age limit you don't really disagree with my concept.  However, we differ on my armoured backpack concept in that I think it should be mandatory whereas you feel it should be a choice.  IMO drastic measures are needed in drastic times, and how can anyone say that the extent of the gun violence and mass shootings is NOT drastic times?  The distribution of guns thoughout the USA has already gone too far for effective gun control legislation to ever DREAM of being passed, which is why I felt alternatives must be sought.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
2.2.57  charger 383  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.53    4 weeks ago

Try this, if a person is  not to be trusted with a gun should be under some kind of supervision because there are other problems with them and they need some type of help.  Under 18 should be under parent's supervision already.  

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
2.2.58  Snuffy  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.56    4 weeks ago

While everybody has the right to defend themselves, there must be reasonable limits on access to guns.  There's no argument among gun owners for that,  reasonable restrictions must apply.  

As far as body armor, I still believe it's personal choice.  But I'm better able to defend myself than most children.  I also do believe that schools must do a better job at security, both at the gates and internally.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
2.3  Snuffy  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2    one month ago

You still cannot fully eliminate the possibility.  As example may I point out Paris, November 2015. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.3.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Snuffy @2.3    one month ago

I'm sure there are more examples than that in nations where people have or can get guns even though they may not be common. 

A common excuse Americans have for getting themselves armed is so they are in a position to defend themselves and their loved ones, so then the more people will have guns, the more other people will obtain them - it's an exponential growth and I'm sure that the 120 guns per 100 people in America will continue to increase.  As it is there are more guns in America than people. 

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
2.3.2  Snuffy  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.3.1    one month ago

Well,  your initial point that I responded to was 

Except if nobody had a gun. 

And I responded that you cannot fully eliminate the possibility.  Using the Paris attack as an example,  guns exist.  The genie is out of the bottle.  You can never fully eliminate the possibility of a school shooting, but the potential can be reduced.  It costs money and resources to better harden schools and it will not fully eliminate the possibility but it can make it harder to happen.  For example, look how Israel handles school security and how many school shootings have they had in the past 20 years?  

As I said, it takes money and resources to make the change and it takes the time to implement them.  Unfortunately it seems that all the Democrats can do is reach to ban some guns.  IMO rather than worry about how many guns are in public hands in the country our leadership should be spending time to discover why some people go on these shooting rampages and what can be done to reduce the possibility and what can be done to reach the person before it's too late.  If it was truly a problem of just the gun, then with the number of guns in pubic hands we would see daily death counts in this country in the tens of thousands.

 
 
 
Lucifer Morningstar
Professor Guide
2.4  Lucifer Morningstar  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2    4 weeks ago

So in other words the impossible is your plan.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.4.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Lucifer Morningstar @2.4    4 weeks ago

Since you're replying to my first statement about nobody having a gun, I mean ordinary citizens, and where I live, it works, but I know that's impossible in the USA so I indicated later a couple of alternatives. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3  seeder  Vic Eldred    one month ago

"Senate Republicans are signaling an openness to talks with Democrats on gun violence in the aftermath of back-to-back mass shootings."

"Senate Minority Leader   Mitch McConnell   (R-Ky.) told CNN on Thursday that he tapped Sen.   John Cornyn   (R-Texas), who recently returned to his home state after the recent shooting at an elementary school in Uvalde, to participate in bipartisan talks."
“What I’ve asked Senator Cornyn to do is to meet with the Democrats who are interested in getting a bipartisan solution and come up with a proposal, if possible, that’s crafted to meet this particular problem,” he said, stressing proposals directly related to the Uvalde shooting."

 

 
 
 
Gsquared
Senior Expert
3.1  Gsquared  replied to  Vic Eldred @3    one month ago

All McConnell is doing is creating a talking point for his propaganda.  It's fake and he doesn't mean any of it 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
3.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Gsquared @3.1    one month ago
All McConnell is doing is creating a talking point for his propaganda. 

Do you think that it will work?

 
 
 
Gsquared
Senior Expert
3.1.2  Gsquared  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.1    one month ago

For McConnell it's all part of a stall game.  Draw things out.  Schumer might not introduce legislation if the republicans make some kind of phony case that they are in discussions.   As usual, the republicans expect that with the passage of time, things will fade from the public's mind and then, of course, nothing will get done.  Which is exactly what they want.

You think it will work, don't you?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
3.1.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Gsquared @3.1.2    one month ago

Well, he is frequently successful.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
3.1.4  Ozzwald  replied to  Gsquared @3.1.2    4 weeks ago
For McConnell it's all part of a stall game.  Draw things out.

Until after the elections.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4  seeder  Vic Eldred    one month ago

Texas school shooting survivor smeared blood on herself, played dead: parents

FTs7MW0XsEwWEU8?format=jpg&name=small


https:// trib.al/yYzDVWm

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Masters Principal
4.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Vic Eldred @4    one month ago

Wow just wow. Quick thinking and resourceful. She actually thought to get her dead teacher's phone to call 911 while going into survival mode. What a story. Kudos young'n

 
 
 
squiggy
Sophomore Quiet
4.2  squiggy  replied to  Vic Eldred @4    one month ago

Eleven. Shit kids shouldn't even see, much less reason a path through.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Senior Expert
5  Gsquared    one month ago

I just heard a woman at the NRA Convention being interviewed on TV state the following:  "It didn't occur to me to make a connection between this shooting and a gun."

Who would make a connection between a shooting and a gun, right?

Mental health is certainly an issue, starting with her mental health.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
5.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Gsquared @5    one month ago
Who would make a connection between a shooting and a gun, right?

Exactly, a shooting requires a shooter, a gun and cartridges.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Senior Expert
5.1.1  Gsquared  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.1    one month ago

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

When you heard about it, did it fail to occur to you to make a connection between the shooting and a gun?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
5.1.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Gsquared @5.1.1    one month ago
Thank you, Captain Obvious.

Colonel, when I retired but that's not very relevant.

did it fail to occur to you to make a connection between the shooting and a gun?

No, I made a connection between all three components, how about you?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
6  charger 383    one month ago

There is an amount of people that just can not function and be a part of general society, some are dangerous, some potentially dangerous, some annoying, some can not take care of themselves, some just don't fit in ect ect.    What does society want to do with them and how much are we willing to spend? 

Do we confine them?

Do we be nice and let them loose and accept the risk?    

Do we put the rights of "problem people" (I can't think of a better term) over the safety of  rest of us?

How can we fix them?

How much do citizens have to give up because of `those who don't fit into society? 

Do we go back to asylums?  hopefully with better conditions

Will we accept that overpopulation and immigration are adding to this problem?

Somethings to think about 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
6.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  charger 383 @6    one month ago
There is an amount of people that just can not function and be a part of general society, some are dangerous, some potentially dangerous, some annoying, some can not take care of themselves, some just don't fit in ect ect.    What does society want to do with them and how much are we willing to spend? 

Are you talking about San Francisco or Portland OR?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
6.1.1  charger 383  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.1    one month ago

They are some everywhere, but those places and some others have an overabundance of them 

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
7  JBB    one month ago

The best mental health reform imaginable would be to aggressively remove all guns from homes where those disallowed by current law to have guns reside!

Not just felons. Domestic abusers and drug addicts, those prescribed antidepressants, antipsychotics, antianxiety meds and other ineligible households...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
7.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @7    one month ago
those prescribed antidepressants, antipsychotics, antianxiety meds

Which NY law references these meds and the ineligibility for the possession of firearms?  I can’t find one.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
7.2  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @7    one month ago

So what you are really saying is to enforce laws already on the books--something a number of Democratic DAs have steadfastly and deliberately refused to do, and precisely what many have argued for all along.

Ah, progress.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
7.3  Greg Jones  replied to  JBB @7    4 weeks ago
"The best mental health reform imaginable would be to aggressively remove all guns from homes where those disallowed by current law to have guns reside"

Under what law or laws? 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
7.4  charger 383  replied to  JBB @7    4 weeks ago

That would increase the number of homeless people 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
7.5  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JBB @7    4 weeks ago

JOE ROGAN: "This country has a mental health problem disguised as a gun problem

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
8  charger 383    one month ago

If a person can not be trusted with a gun should they be allowed to vote?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  charger 383 @8    4 weeks ago

Very good question.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9  seeder  Vic Eldred    4 weeks ago

Murder victims by weapon used in the U.S 2020

Published by  Statista Research Department Sep 29, 2021
 Handguns are by far the most common murder weapon used in the United States, accounting for 8,029 homicides in 2020. This is followed by firearms of an unstated type, with 4,863 cases in that year.


 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
9.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @9    4 weeks ago

Then the intended ban of handguns by Canada makes even more sense to me.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
9.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.1    4 weeks ago

Exactly, even though gun powder was invented in China over 1,000 years ago, they learned as Mao Zedong said, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun".   For over 50 years now, the state has banned the buying, selling and transporting of firearms without official permission.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
9.1.2  charger 383  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.1.1    4 weeks ago

Which is exactly why US Citizens should never give up our guns

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
9.1.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  charger 383 @9.1.2    4 weeks ago

Don't worry, charger 383, that will never happen.  It's only the kids and teachers in school, people buying groceries, people in medical centres, people praying in a place of worship, people walking down the street and people sitting in their living rooms next to a window who need to worry.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.1.4  Tessylo  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.1.3    4 weeks ago

And a lot of black folks simply for being black.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
9.1.5  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @9.1.4    4 weeks ago

I don't think that Buzz was excluding black folks from his observation.  He knows that they also are kids, teachers, buy groceries, etc.

 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
9.1.6  charger 383  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.1.3    4 weeks ago

and a government, that is not deterred by citizens able to stand up for themselves, could after a while decide those same people need to be re-educated or have their processions and wealth redistributed.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
9.1.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  charger 383 @9.1.6    4 weeks ago

I would think "educated" would have been a better word to use than "reeducated", but then I was talking about America, wasn't I, and not hiding by deflecting.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
9.1.8  charger 383  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.1.7    4 weeks ago

I was referring to a future I don't want to see in America and a past seen in Germany.  I did not think I was hiding or deflecting nor did I want to insult you 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
9.1.9  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  charger 383 @9.1.8    4 weeks ago

I apologize for misunderstanding and misinterpreting your comment.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
9.1.10  charger 383  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.1.9    4 weeks ago

thanks, I would not want to insult a Newstalkers friend I have respect for

 
 
 
Gulliver
Freshman Guide
10  Gulliver    4 weeks ago

Most mentally ill people hurt nobody but themselves and the people who cry for them.

And psychopathy, which features prominently among  people who would pick up a gun to mow down strangers, isn't actually a mental illness. It is a personality disorder.

Making it more humiliating to suffer from depression or schizophrenia isn't going to make anyone safer.

And there is this:

Republicans have more psychopathic traits than Democrats, according to a psychology survey 

Lock em' up!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
10.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Gulliver @10    4 weeks ago
Most mentally ill people hurt nobody but themselves and the people who cry for them.

And psychopathy, which features prominently among  people who would pick up a gun to mow down strangers, isn't actually a mental illness. It is a personality disorder.

Making it more humiliating to suffer from depression or schizophrenia isn't going to make anyone safer.

Completely agree.

Republicans Have More Psychopathic Traits Than Democrats, According To A Psychology Survey 

Awful small sample size.

 
 
 
Gulliver
Freshman Guide
10.1.1  Gulliver  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @10.1    4 weeks ago
Awful small sample size.

It seems to be a reproducible result:

Or at least, it was looked at before and they found a similar correlation.

Is this a shock that a political philosophy of "I've got mine so screw you" is going to be correlated with psychopathy?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
10.1.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Gulliver @10.1.1    4 weeks ago
Is this a shock that a political philosophy of "I've got mine so screw you" is going to be correlated with psychopathy?

You’ve got me, I don’t even understand my own psychology.

 
 
 
Gulliver
Freshman Guide
10.1.3  Gulliver  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @10.1.2    4 weeks ago

I hope everyone can at least enjoy this:

Research Suggests Politicians are More Likely to Be Psychopaths

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
10.1.4  charger 383  replied to  Gulliver @10.1.3    4 weeks ago

The worst kind because they can get away with things

 
 

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