Justice Department must justify Mar-a-Lago raid
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Process demands that law enforcement must convince a judge that they have probable cause to believe a crime has been committed before a warrant is issued to search someone's property. We have no doubt the FBI met that bar before they searched former President Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago home Monday.
Politics, however, demands that the Department of Justice must justify the time, resources, and tactics used by the FBI when enforcing federal law. It is entirely unclear if the DOJ can defend the FBI's unprecedented search of a former president's home for what appears to be document retention malfeasance .
Every day that the DOJ fails to explain why the FBI's raid on Mar-a-Lago was absolutely necessary is another day the agency loses more of its already strained credibility.
The FBI showed up unannounced at Mar-a-Lago at 9 a.m. Monday morning. Agents wore street clothes so as not to alert guests at the Florida resort. The Secret Service admitted them to the property without incident. They left around 6:30 p.m. with dozens of boxes, which were then taken to the South Florida FBI field office.
The search warrant had been issued by a federal judge in West Palm Beach based on evidence obtained from an earlier load of documents Trump's lawyers delivered to the FBI. Based on what Trump had turned over previously, FBI agents believed there were more classified documents being unlawfully stored at the resort. It is those classified documents that the FBI seized Monday. There have been no reports that anything seized was related to the Jan. 6 riot.
Some have suggested that if Trump is convicted of mishandling classified material, he could be barred from running for president again. This is untrue. Federal statute does bar those convicted of mishandling classified information from "holding any office under the United States." But the Supreme Court has ruled that neither Congress nor state governments can create new and additional qualifications for running for Congress, and it would very likely rule the same way regarding the presidency. Absent a constitutional amendment, Congress lacks the power to decide who can and cannot run for president.
It is also worth noting that the statute under which the FBI appears to be investigating Trump is the exact same statute Hillary Clinton violated when she maintained a private email server as secretary of state. The FBI never raided Clinton's home even though she destroyed evidence relevant to that investigation.
This is where the DOJ's explanation for its actions becomes so important. In addition to the disparate treatment received by Clinton, Republicans have been given ample cause to call into question the impartiality of DOJ and FBI employees.
A whistleblower has provided Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA) with evidence that FBI employees Timothy Thibault and Brian Auten abused their power to shut down investigations into illegal activity documented by Hunter Biden's laptop and falsely labeled as "disinformation" material from that laptop, all to the political benefit of Biden's father, the sitting president.
The FBI, unfortunately, also has an established reputation for falsifying information submitted to federal courts in order to obtain warrants to investigate Trump allies. FBI lawyer Kevin Clinesmith pleaded guilty to altering an email used to obtain a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act wiretap of Trump campaign associate Carter Page. Clinesmith received just 400 hours of community service for this very serious crime — no jail time, no fines.
These abuses by the FBI in the highest-profile cases appear to be widespread. A 2019 internal FBI audit found that bureau agents broke their own rules at least 747 times over an 18-month period. That is completely unacceptable.
Maybe those dozens of boxes hauled away by the FBI on Monday contain classified material so important to the national security of the United States that their improper storage justified an unprecedented, unannounced raid on a former president's home. If so, the DOJ should immediately make this known publicly.
Voters also deserve to know who made the decision to raid Trump's home and how they arrived at the conclusion that it was necessary. They should not have to wait until November, when one or both chambers of Congress change hands, for Republicans to start issuing subpoenas. The investigation should start as soon as possible because the public deserves to know.
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At least the comment is prefaced with a ‘maybe’ and buttressed with an ‘if so’.
My take is that was sarcasm by the author regarding the point of his article.
This is just another example of a nonsensical, right wing, hypocritical, piece of dumbasserie. They DID justify the raid to a Federal judge. If they hadn't, there would have been no search warrant.
Yes and that has absolutely nothing to do with the seed.
Read the title of your own seed, man.
Warrant issued, search conducted, indictment pending.
Read the seed please.
Focus as one will on an opinion piece. The facts remain.
I would have thought that if you felt the need to comment that you would have read it. Apologies, I didn't know you were a headline skimmer.
Really, what indictment is that?
First they have to prove that Trump had any classified information. Next they have to prove that he had it illegally. Considering that they let Hillary walk uncharged- they had better pack several lunches and a truckload's worth of depends or else wade through their own shit.
"...convince a judge that they have probable cause to believe a crime has been committed before a warrant is issued..."
We all read the first sentence.
"Justice Department Must Justify Mar-A-Lago Raid"
You quoted a headline, where the complete context would be; "Politics, however, demands that the Department of Justice must justify the time, resources, and tactics used by the FBI when enforcing federal law."
The people want to be certain whether or not this is another circus - they've been treated to so many shows.
What has politics got to do with someone breaking the law? Should the Miranda be adjusted based on political affiliations?
Not "the people", MAGA wants to know. And calling MAGA "people" is beyond generous.
They're certainly the loudest but if you think they're the only ones then you would be wrong.
Absolutely nothing - hence the ability to 'indict a ham sandwich'.
"And calling MAGA "people" is beyond generous."
Speak for your own lack of ability.
They're not the only ones wondering about it, but they are the only ones demanding and threatening about it.
You mean this wack off judge?
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Wouldn't be the first time they used false info to obtain a warrant. I would not put it passed them to go judge shopping to find a judge that is looking to get Trump. Remember they used the fake Steele file to obtain fisa warrants in 2016.
Then how do you explain the convictions and subsequent pardons of Roger Stone, Paul Manafort and Michael Flynn?
This is almost as bad as the multitude of unfunny satire pieces offered.
If the justice department under Trump raided the former vice Presidents home none of these rightwing conservatives would be demanding justification, they'd be satisfied with two words, "Hunters laptop!".
Even after we've all witnessed years of Trump obstructing justice, coercing allied countries to dig up dirt on his political opponents and inspiring an attempted insurrection to keep himself in power, these whiny ass licking Trump sycophants are still trying their best to deflect, defend and excuse his clearly criminal behavior.
And if pigs had wings they would fly...
I have seen democrats fly.
As have I. Have also seen the apologists daily grovel.
Is that your justification for this KGB operation?
Even after we've all witnessed years of Trump
The rule of law must be the same for everyone. That is why Lady Justice is blindfolded. The ends do not justify the means and the left is on the wrong side of history.
Tell me Vic, you seem to know more about it than me. Did the KGB obtain a legal, federal judge approved, search warrant before entering a premises?
Just asking.
Law enforcement must obtain a search warrant for EVERYONE. Trump was handled just like everyone else in that respect.
The FBI asked the FISA Court for a Warrant. They got it. Have you heard what the FISA Court Chief Judge said about it?
Here:
"The frequency with which representations made by FBI personnel turned out to be unsupported or contradicted by information in their possession, and with which they withheld information detrimental to their case, calls into question whether information contained in other FBI applications is reliable.”
“The OIG Report…documents troubling instances in which FBI personnel provided information to NSD [National Security Division] which was unsupported or contradicted by information in their possession.
It also describes several instances in which FBI personnel withheld from NSD information in their possession which was detrimental to their case for believing that Mr. Page was acting as an agent of a foreign power.”
Not the question I asked Vic. Try answering a question for once.
AND this was not a FISA warrant. Can't you even stay on your own comment's topic?
Nothing KGB about it. It was a warranted search authorized by a judge.
Yet it seems many Trump fans believe he should be above the law.
That's how Trump prefers the women he sexually assaults.
I believe when all the actions of the former President come to light we'll know how much his end was justified. I'm sure some will never believe anything even if they produce mountains of incriminating evidence, his rightwing sycophants will claim its all "fake news" and some 'deep State' conspiracy.
I'm sure that's what every bitter conservative bigot will claim even as Trump gets hauled off in handcuffs.
Oh yes. It will be he was framed.
Are you talking Hillary now?
You mean alleged criminal behavior
Biden's DOJ blew this big time....making Trump a victim of Gestapo overreach.
How exactly do you know this? Are there more details released on the justification of the raid?
No, that's what the seed is about.
If the raid produces criminal evidence against Trump would this be the DoJ 'blowing it big time'?
To wit, don't we need more information to determine if this raid was proper execution of our system of justice or a failure of same?
Surely you're not a headline skimmer too?
You are dodging a very simple question.
No I'm not, I agree with the author. The information you speak of should have been articulated at this point to some degree by FBI ot DoJ yet nothing...
This is the question I asked:
You claim that the DoJ blew it. Your reasoning is that they should have made it clear why they conducted the raid. That is at best short term optics.
My question is concerned with justice —the actual purpose of the DoJ— (and, secondarily, long-term optics). We do not know if the DoJ blew this or not unless you have some information to offer.
I haven't made any claim other than, in my opinion, the author is right. If you think it's perfectly normal for there not to be any comments from either FBI or DoJ about something like this..... well, you be you
Sure you did:
Thus the natural question offered:
Qualified by:
After all, if this results in incriminating evidence it will be logically difficult to say the DoJ blew it.
I think you might be confused as to whom your responding to. Not that there's anything wrong with that..
Oh, I see, two Gregs. Sorry.
Okay, GregTx, my question is now directed to GregTx vs. Greg Jones:
If the raid produces criminal evidence against Trump would not providing upfront reasoning matter at that point?
Well GregTx would say that your question is irrelevant and a deflection since none was provided nor argued for.
This seed uses the term 'raid'. What word shall we all use to make you happy?
Giggle bitch’s ex speech writer came out and said they need to stop calling it a raid because of the bad optics and next thing you know all the tv lemmings are parroting “it’s not a raid.” Lol
"If the justice department under Trump raided the former vice Presidents home none of these rightwing conservatives would be demanding justification, they'd be satisfied with two words, "Hunters laptop!".
Even after we've all witnessed years of Trump obstructing justice, coercing allied countries to dig up dirt on his political opponents and inspiring an attempted insurrection to keep himself in power, these whiny ass licking Trump sycophants are still trying their best to deflect, defend and excuse his clearly criminal behavior."
The desperation and hate and ignorance from them is palpable and frightening.
You always get it right, or should I say correct DP.
You just hit another one out of the park!
What gets me is why do people think they should come out and explain every action or motive.
I don't think they do that for most all other searches.
They searched the home of an ex President. This isn't like any other search, ever.
Is donald not a regular person? He is not some type of God...
He's an ex-President. It's not the same as searching joe sixpack for weed. Is it that difficult to see why the public interest is different?
people that defy lawful subpoenas wind up served with search warrants. tough shit trumpsters...
No different to me than any 'celebrity'.
Well that's telling....
Of what?
You can't tell the difference between a President and a movie star?
I can see a reality star that became president and an actor that became president.
I don't hero worship the office nor think it deserves divine status.
I guess I was wrong to think that every American was equal in the eyes of the law, and that Animal Farm is right - some are more equal than others.
Your inability to discern.
I can 'discern' quite fine. It is you all maga supporters that have a problem.
That is true and that being true I am sure there was no crime committed by Trump if he held on to classified documents since I don't think he intended to commit any crime and they certainly were not a threat to be hacked from Milania's closet
That really has nothing to do with anyone's point on this thread.
Mmmmmm.......
Since you keep using that term in a derogatory manner, I can only wonder why you don't want America to be great. Why are you ok with our country being mediocre and average? That does explain why you support let's go Brandon. He is bringing us down faster than ever.
If I wanted to use it in a derogatory manner I would call you a magat.
And who said I supported Biden? Making things up seems to be a maga trait too.
You did not answer my question.
"people that defy lawful subpoenas wind up served with search warrants. tough shit trumpsters."..
There was no subpoena issued.
That you seem to think the country is only great depending on who is in charge says to me that question does not even deserve an answer.
"Going by what you say or don't say."
I see that.......
Uh huh.
“That you seem to think the country is only great depending on who is in charge”
That comment says to me you have absolutely no clue.
That comment to me says you have nothing to offer.
It is beyond obvious that for some, facts just don't matter unless it fits their narrative.
You’ll never know because you have no clue.
Try again. I am talking about the public’s interest in knowing what’s happening, which Is the subject of the thread. It has nothing to do with how the case is actually resolved.
Repeating oneself means a limited vocabulary.
YOU try again. You commented on the thread that an ex-president should be treated differently under the law than an ordinary person and I responded to that.
That's his MO
Like you do, all the time and all the other trumpturd supporters.
You commented on the thread that an ex-president should be treated differently under the law than an ordinary person and I responded to tha
No, I didn't. I was clearly talking about the public's respective interest, not how the defendant's should be treated. Your spin is dishonest.
Where did I say that? Here is a clue that will save you some time. I didn't. The policies of the person in charge can make a difference. Biden's policy of open borders, appeasement if Russia and China, energy policies and refusal to put America first does not make us a great nation but does help make us a poorer and weaker one
Whatever you say trump fan.
Well at least Trump did much of what he said he would do and didn't fuck up the country like Biden has.
I guess I have to repeat myself.
What ever you say trump fan.
The way things are now when comparing them to when Trump was president, I will take your Trump fan comment as a complement. Things were much better when he was in the white House. Gas prices were lower, the border while not totally secure was more secure than it is now and was in line to get better. There weren't American citizens and allies trapped and left to the mercies of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the economy was better, Russia stayed within it's borders and Taiwan was not being threatened by China as it is now.
Better a Trump fan than a Biden buffoon
Better to have rational individual thought than be told what to think.
You be you though.
On that we can agree on. That is why I am a conservative. I can and do think for myself.
While parroting every right wing talking point...
ANd now, the only logical argument they can dream up:
But TRUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You mean how you parrot every left wing talking point.
Tell me. If the things I mentioned in my comment above, which ones were not true and why do think that they were false.
Hahaha
considering this is an article about donald....considering donald is in charge of the republicans...considering all republicans do is cover for and defend donald...
Then complain when someone talks about him...
Truly bizarre.
No matter what I said it wouldn't make a bit of difference. You have your bias and it will never change.
Progressivism is a bad word in your neighborhood.
I didn't complain about it---what on earth are you reading?
Exactly what I thought when I read your post.
Have you ever made a true salient point?
Have you ever recognized one?
I take that as a no...
I can't remove your fantasies from your head for you.
Prove me wrong then. Have an actual thought about a subject, not just me.
You delusion is showing again:
I don't see Trump anywhere in the leadership?
Oh wait, I almost forgot - the moronic idea the Trump is in charge of the Republican's is one of the lefts' talking points.
So you are just going to act like he doesn't have rallies, he doesn't have support, that the base wants him to run again...
Acting like he has no sway in the party is nothing but denial.
Doesn't mean he's in the position you claim he's in. Hell anybody can have a rally and support.
So it's about sway and not being in charge now? Way to move the goal posts.
Most people know he is basically in charge. If you don't believe it show me who is...
Many libs insist on arguing things they know nothing of when they get their asses handed to them.
It' hilarious watching them flail trying to justify their idiocy.
How about you try and debunk those "right wing talking points".
You won't because.....cough...cough.....you can't.
You want proof that you are wrong but just dodge my request that you prove me wrong. Either show where the things in 4.1.39 are wrong or admit you have nothing and just blowing smoke and spouting left wing propaganda
Progressivism is a stain on the country.
That's bullshit, but one thing we know for sure. Joe Biden is not in charge of the democratic party.....or his faculties.
Believe what you want. I know what you are incapable of.
This
Conservatism is a blight on humanity.
Pick one you want to talk about.
So donald is not in charge aye. Then why all the defence and covering for him. All the support. All the maga rules bullshit.
No one is covering for him. I can assure you if Trump was truly guilty of something, then he should have to pay for it.
However, what really shows of your hatred for Trump is that he by far was a better president than any democrat president in modern history put together, including your god, Obama,
Now, again, show us any of the points arkpdx made that are not true. What I am sure of is your silence.
BTW,,,do us all a favor and don't change the subject when you realize you have lost...like right now.
What I am incapable of is understanding the bullshit you spew day in and day out.
I asked him to pick one to talk about. I am not going to go over every one in a single post.
The fact that you think he was the greatest president in modern history tells me all I need to know.
Oh I forgot, you added the qualifier of Dem president....
The fact that you think I have such hatred and or admiration shows you really don't pay attention.
Horse meet cart...
That is because you can not disprove any of them . In Texas I have heard that they say that someone that has nothing is all that and no cattle. You are even lacking the hat. Like most lefties , all talk and no substance
Again, pick one.
So split your posts up and cover all of them. Too difficult?
BTW...you never showed where I "insulted" you the other day, like you claimed I did.
Maybe because you couldn't?
Also, my post stands. Trump was by far better than all democratic presidents combined.
There is no logical argument against that....just loon leftist triggering.
Quit dodging the question. I want you to try and disprove all of them.
Just as I thought.....
Silence yet again.
If you think Biden controls the price of oil, I have a bridge for sale...
The border has never been secure. I know you all want draconian measures, Hell akpdx wants to shoot them on sight. You can say he lowered the amount of people coming here yet all he did was create a larger backload of cases that have to go to court. He also dropped off thousands of immigrants into states like you all are yelling at Biden for. He also had two years of a pandemic where immigration was slowed. Also the amount of immigrants that showed up at legal crossing slowed while crossings at non legal border crossing rose.
In Afghanistan, no matter what you all say, people were warned months ahead of time to get out of the country. sorry but I don't feel sorry for people that decided to stay. Are they still there? Are they dead or being held against their will? If so, I haven't heard anything about it...
The economy is getting better. It is not all doom and gloom like you all say. Really weird to me that you all cannot see what the pandemic and lockdown did. It disrupted most things. Also inflation is worldwide. Acting like it is just a US thing is a misnomer if not a deflection.
Comical that you blame Biden for Russian aggression. Put the blame where it belongs for once, with Russia.
Taiwan has been being threatened by China for a while. Funny that some republicans were praising Pelosi for going there. What do you possibly think any republican president would do differently?
Never said he did. However, Biden, on hos first day in office, signed several EOs that were detrimental to the prices of oil. The day before he took office, gas prices in north Florida were around 2.20. Within 48 hours of Biden taking office, they went to 2.80 and continued to go up to about 3.40 BEFORE Putin invaded Ukraine.
"The border has never been secure. I know you all want draconian measures, Hell akpdx wants to shoot them on sight. You can say he lowered the amount of people coming here yet all he did was create a larger backload of cases that have to go to court. He also dropped off thousands of immigrants into states like you all are yelling at Biden for. He also had two years of a pandemic where immigration was slowed. Also the amount of immigrants that showed up at legal crossing slowed while crossings at non legal border crossing rose."
Biden spent the entire campaign saying that he would allow just about anyone in by stopping the remain in Mexico, and indicating he would stop deportations. He did both. He is encouraging illegals to come here by not trying to stop them.
"In Afghanistan, no matter what you all say, people were warned months ahead of time to get out of the country. sorry but I don't feel sorry for people that decided to stay. Are they still there? Are they dead or being held against their will? If so, I haven't heard anything about it..."
Biden delayed the withdrawal to August and bugged everyone out haphazard, leaving many behind. Yes, there was time to plan and get out, many did not, and I am not going to speculate why. Biden evacuated the military before getting any US allies that worked with the US out, causing them to get hunted down and several, if not many, killed. No one in their right mind thinks he made the withdrawal thoughtfully.
"The economy is getting better. It is not all doom and gloom like you all say. Really weird to me that you all cannot see what the pandemic and lock down did. It disrupted most things. Also inflation is worldwide. Acting like it is just a US thing is a misnomer if not a deflection."
The economy is not getting better. We are in a recession and will probably be so for the near future. As we emerged from lock downs, mostly in liberal cities that was the biggest cause of unemployment, the economy started coming back with good GDP growth. We have now experienced 2 quarters of decline, with a third likely. No matter what liberals want to do with definitions these days, we are in a recession.
"Comical that you blame Biden for Russian aggression. Put the blame where it belongs for once, with Russia."
Where did he blame Biden for Russia invading Ukraine. Answer...he didn't. Biden showed weakness on the world stage, still does today. That gave Putin the balls to go in.
Pretty much the same the last point. Biden is weak, giving China the go ahead to sabre rattle more and more. Same with Iran, and North Korea, all of which were relatively quiet during the Trump years. Pelosi only went to Taiwan because China threatened the US if she went. Her schedule was leaked by the WH. She HAD to go.
The oil companies still get government subsidies. They have also made record profits.
Deportations have not stopped.
Yes he pushed back the withdraw date. People still knew what we were doing. People had months to get out of there and didn't I would have hauled my ass out quick as we all knew what would happen when we left. Was a good withdraw? I would say no yet I also don't see any scenario where it would have been.
I have posted on this forum where my town has made record profit. We have exceeded expectations even on sales tax. I don't know where you live but we are doing just fine.
Weak? Haha what ever you want to believe. I guess you all like sabre rattling. donald alienated most of our allies while basically bowing down to putin and writing love letters to NK.
Deportations are about half or less than when Trump was on charge.
True.
And believe it or not I can understand your outrage. I just see whatever either side tries doesn't work. Also most of them end up doing the same things. Haha
What we all do is argue about degrees.
I go back to my original point of making their homeland better. Give them no reason to have to migrate.
If their country is a shit hole that is their problem, not mine. It is up to them to make it better. I don't want them coming here and making this country a shit hole like they left. I also don't like people that think they can violate our laws and sneak into the country like a thief in the night.
I thought military people knew what things are like. Know how things are in places you don't want to be.
To blame the people that have to live under a war lord and not understand why they flee, I just don't understand.
What makes that my problem?
We are the police of the world after all....
Done it already many times.
Gee, what a freaking novel idea. Ever thought of trying it for yourself as a change of pace?
Hmm the left always claims we are not the world's police. Is it just select things you want to police?
It was just a joke. We know each others opinion. How much farther can we go.
No. You all "THINK" he's in charge.
I did.
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