Three Charts The Delta Variant Scaremongers Don’t Want You To See
By: I&I Editorial Board
It’s time for reality to replace the sky is falling fear mongers out there trying to make the most of this pandemic and stretch it out as long as possible delaying a return to normal as long as possible. We reject mandates, diapers, passports, and lockdowns. We want our freedom, rights, and liberty restored.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Three Charts The Delta Variant Scaremongers Don’t Want You To See
August 11, 2021
While the sharp rise in Delta-variant COVID cases has sparked a renewed push for mask mandates, lockdowns, and vaccine “passports,” there’s been little attention paid to just how dangerous this variant is. Perhaps that’s because the evidence suggests it is far less of a public health concern than previous outbreaks.
Just how much less of a threat isn’t precisely known. But there are ways to gauge the risk. One is to look at the number of COVID cases and the number of deaths happening right now, compared with what happened a year ago.
What do you find? First of all, there are fewer cases than last year. From June to August this year, there have been more than 2 million recorded COVID cases in the U.S.
Over the same days last year, the total number of COVID cases was above 3.1 million.
How about deaths? From June 1 through Aug. 9, the total number of COVID fatalities was 20,149. Last year, the death count was 62,287.
In other words, cases are 41% lower than during this time last year, and deaths are 66% lower.
Source: CDC DataLooked at another way, the “case fatality rate” was 1% from June 1 through Aug. 9 this year. It was 2% over the same days last year.
Looking at a longer time frame, the case fatality rate all this year is 1.5%. And the case fatality rate for all of last year was 1.8%.
In other words, the fatality rate from COVID appears to be steadily declining.
Source: CDC DataThe lower lethality of the Delta variant makes sense.
Like any other infectious disease, COVID picked off the low-hanging fruit first – the very sick and elderly. So the case fatality rate plunged after its initial spike in early 2020 – when it was around 6%.
Doctors and hospitals also learned about better ways to treat the disease, no doubt saving lives.
And, the vaccines that unexpectedly appeared by last November have since created a vastly larger pool of people with immunity to the new virus. The vaccinated who are catching the Delta variant are experiencing far milder symptoms than they would have otherwise.
So far, in fact, there have been 36.8 million recorded cases of COVID, there are 167 million people fully vaccinated, and another 29 million partially vaccinated. That means roughly 60% of the nation has either had COVID or has been vaccinated. Even assuming there’s a lot of overlap between the two groups, that’s still a massive number of people with at least some immunity to the disease.
Here’s another way to look at it. Deaths from all causes so far this year are now lower in every age group than last year, especially among the elderly.
Source: CDCBut while the disease has become less fearsome, the public perception hasn’t changed, and so the fixation on case counts only feeds the public’s anxiety.
Yes, there are certain areas where hospital resources are being strained at the moment. But overall, hospital capacity is far from reaching its limit. Data from John Hopkins University of Medicine’s tracking center shows that 25% of intensive care unit beds in the country aren’t occupied. Even in hotspots such as Texas, 10% of ICU beds are available, as are 20% of inpatient beds. Ten percent of Florida’s ICU beds and 16% of inpatient beds are currently unoccupied.
So why isn’t this seemingly good news about COVID making headlines?
Here’s one possibility. The public health community and leftist politicians don’t want to give up their newfound powers.
If COVID goes away, Anthony Fauci suddenly becomes just another annoying bureaucrat that nobody pays attention to.
And leftists, who have been able to boss people around and spend taxpayer money at levels no one would have ever tolerated before COVID, are loathe for things to get back to normal.
There’s also the fact that the current outbreak provides another chance for Democrats to score political points against Republicans. Just as we saw in the initial outbreak, Republican governors are coming under vicious and constant attack for not being sufficiently authoritarian, despite the growing body of scientific evidence that lockdowns and mask mandates are largely ineffective.
Power doesn’t only corrupt. It is also highly addictive. And the fear of suffering painful withdrawal symptoms supersedes any other consideration.
— Written by the I&I Editorial Board
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This about sums it up!
Looking at the first graph you can see that deaths are about half what they were last year while at the same time cases have spiked considerably. The delta variant is more infectious than previous variants but since half the population is vaccinated deaths are cut in half.
The second graph shows the fatality rate by percentage of cases which is also down considerably also because of vaccinations.
Not sure what you're trying to prove with the third graph but it does show a greater improvement amongst older people than younger people which, also, correlates with vaccination rates.
Keep in mind that I haven't read the article. I looked at the data and made my own conclusions. I 'did my own research', as you might put it.
That makes no sense at all! Cases spiked despite the vaccine being prevalent. Breakthroughs on the vaccinated aren’t too common at all. The vast majority of the new variant cases are asymptomatic or minor ailments. Thus the lower death rate. It’s true that the new variant can kill an unvaccinated person but it’s not happening at near the rate it did before.
What you suggest is that the majority of cases are among the vaccinated and that it’s only that they took the vaccine that they are still alive. That doesn’t add up.
That the disease is more contagious but much less deadly than the prior variants and the original China export.
why am I not surprised. Can’t be exposed to an opposing point of view now can we?
confirmation bias.
The delta variant is more infectious than previous variants.
I've suggested no such thing. The vaccinated are still getting the virus. They just aren't dying from it as much.
The son of a friend of mine just got out of the hospital. He'd been there for 2 weeks with covid. He's home now but he has severe lung damage and is on oxygen. He's 51 and may have to be on oxygen the rest of his life. He did his own research and decided to wait for a vaccine that "doesn't alter my dna". So, don't get vaccinated. I don't care.
I got my Pfizer vaccine on February 19 and March 12. I’ve always been pro Trump vaccine. I’m opposed to compelling others to get it. I’m opposed to passports. I’m opposed to mask mandates. I’m opposed to economic and church lockdowns.
Warming up for an opera? "ME ME ME ME ME".
Nope. Just stating what I believe on key issues related to the seeded article.
Why? What's wrong with each of those? You know very well that the purpose of each one of those things is to stop a virus that has already killed millions of people and caused millions more to endure long term internal injury and suffering.
It does, actually. And it also reinforces your point, so I'm not sure why you disagree.
Exactly. So...to your point... we have far less to fear than we did a year ago. That will not stop politicians, for whom fear is advantageous, from whipping up as much panic as possible.
What is wrong with compelling people to take a vaccine when there is zero chance we understand the potential long term side effects?
Are you serious?
Because we already understand the potential long term side effects of Covid.
So you got your vaccine but still want to discourage others from getting it? That's something that makes no sense at all.
What are the potential long term side effects of Covid?
Covid 19 hasn't been around long enough for us to know it's long term side effects.
The few people I know that survived the hospital are not the same as they were before.
Whether or not they agree or admit it, they are angry; they tend to blurt out some shocking things
I have never heard from them before.
In many cases they have mild brain and lung injuries that have prevented them from returning to driving, working
shopping.
Are you serious? Guess what the long term “side effect” is when you die from Covid? Try not to overthink it.
Furthermore, we already know there are debilitating and painful “side effects” from merely surviving Covid. They’re calling it “ Long Covid .” It goes on for weeks or months. For some, it has never stopped.
One of my patients had Covid in November. In May, he still has shortness of breath, even at rest.
And another woman I know who also had it in November is being evaluated for possible congestive heart failure. She hasn't felt well since she "recovered".
Neither Heaven nor Hell will let you in.
And that is what we know right now.
Covid in other animals can hide in the bodies and in later in their lives they may develop infectious peritonitis, which is always fatal. There is little data on this for people.
My otherwise healthy neighbor has been fighting multiple organ failures for a year since her bout with Covid-19...
I’m not opposed to people making the choice to do any of those things. If people feel the need to wear a mask feel free. If after consulting with ones doctor one wants to get the vaccine like I did, feel free. I guess it’s my inner libertarian in me speaking out.
Try to do some basic level of thinking instead of panicking. Other shit can kill you besides Covid. Other shit besides Covid can make you wish it had killed you.
Yes.
That doesn't mean we aren't going to see some other long term side effect from the vaccines. Or have you never heard of Thalidomide?
If you're vaccinated, excellent. Covid represents a phenomenally low threat to you. We're not going to force other people to get a shot just because you're scared. If they want to take the risk, that's up to them.
Try to type the truth. I discourage no one. I’m pro vaccine. I hope as many as possible make the voluntary choice to take the Trump vaccine. What I oppose are mandates or coercion in general. I have left of center family members who are anti vaxxers that my conservative sister and I’ve been trying to persuade to take it since February.
I don't believe Tacos! is panicking, any more than you were panicking when you answered a question in a similar manner.
More BS. “Panicking” implies something sudden just happened and I am reacting on instinct. That’s a ridiculous characterization. The pandemic is over a year and a half old now. Almost 4 1/2 million people are dead from it. Almost 620 Thousand Americans are dead from it. 4 1/2 BILLION vaccine doses have been administered. We have a shit-ton of information and plenty of thought behind decisions to do things like get vaccines or mask up.
Shit we have a vaccine for?
So how much time would you like to cower in your house, trembling in fear of side effects that might happen?
I have. But you have to do more than “hear of” Thalidomide. If you want to endorse being thoughtful, and not panicking, you should put some thought into comparing the two situations. Compare the testing that vaccines have gone through compared to what was done with Thalidomide. Compare what the drugs do to the body. Consider the observed complications from Covid versus the observed complications from vaccines.
Are you a pregnant woman who is worried? Feel free to wait until you have your baby, if you want. Pregnant women are not the reason we don’t have enough people vaccinated. (Although, if you get sick while you’re pregnant, that is bad for both you and the baby.)
But if you’re not a pregnant woman, you don’t really have an excuse, do you?
You can keep playing that card if you want, but it falls on deaf ears. From where I’m sitting, it’s the people who won’t get the shot who are afraid and panicking. You have no evidence that the vaccine is dangerous, but you run around like Chicken Little declaring that the sky is falling because of it.
Perhaps it takes courage and a generous spirit to get a vaccine that will save not only your life, but the lives of others. Perhaps the people who avoid it because of what might happen are the real cowards.
That's not what you're talking about. You specifically questioned what is wrong with vaccine mandates. You asked what would be wrong with forcing American citizens...under penalty of law....to be injected against their will, despite the fact they represent a far greater danger to you driving their car than they do breathing your air.
Panic is the least damning explanation for support of a mandate. Another explanation would be that you're a fascist megalomaniac who demands everybody do what you want them to...but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and stick with "panic", and I could probably be talked down to "overreacting".
Or possibly the vaccine itself. We have no idea what it might do to kidney or liver function years from now, or if it may cause reproductive, endocrine, or immune system issues. There is zero data on any of that, so there isn't any way to possibly know.
I'm vaccinated and back to life as normal. Or at least I was until midnight last night when Clay Jenkins decided to go to war with Greg Abbott.
Based on the data, I decided getting vaccinated is clearly the intelligent decision, and I encourage people to do so. But my personal vaccine decision does not give me the right to inflict that on somebody else by way of government mandate if they don't want to do it. Other people have the right to make that decision for themselves. Do you see how that works?
Oh.... so your "mandate" is going to be selective, then. How generous.
By which you mean "covered ears", likely combined with "lalalalala" at a very loud volume to keep you from hearing shit that might suggest you need to rethink.
Living in a high anti-vax zone, my unscientific observation is that the objections are much more frequently political than actual fear of the shot. Which doesn't make it a smarter decision.
The issue that you don't want to listen to surrounds the word "mandate". Whether or not you and I are concerned about potential future dangers of the vaccine matters to nobody. Forcing other people to do shit against their will is a huge problem, and I'm not sure how that's not obvious.
How does saying I’m pro Trump vaccine and suggest others also take the Trump vaccine discourage others from getting it. Just because I won’t support the coercion of others being forced against their will to get it doesn’t mean I won’t try to use persuasion to try to talk others into voluntarily getting it if they see the need and decide to want it.
That’s how I see it too.
And I still haven‘t heard a rational answer.
Do they?
US Traffic Deaths in 2020: 38,680 .
US Covid Deaths in 2020: 345,323 .
Looks to me like Covid is about ten times more deadly than driving.
By the way, you know how many Americans have died from Covid vaccines? 3 . It’s three . Three people can be said to have died from a vaccine in the US, and it was only the J&J shot, which most people don’t even get. Zero people - ZERO! - have died from the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines.
Next nonsense? Oh . . .
So, it’s fascism now to immunize people against highly infectious, fatal disease? Is that how you feel about eliminating Polio? Smallpox? Diphtheria? Is that how you feel about Measles? Whooping Cough? That it’s FASCISM to want to stamp out these diseases by requiring that people get shots for them? We require proof of vaccination for all these things - or we did before things like Smallpox disappeared from the natural world (it still exists in labs) thanks to . . . wait for it . . . Vaccines! And yes, also mandates for vaccines.
Fascist vaccines indeed.
Then - understanding its value - it is extra irresponsible of you to advocate against requiring the vaccine.
A person’s individual rights stop at their right to infect other people with deadly viruses. See how that works?
Actually it is. If someone has a legitimate documented medical reason why they shouldn’t get vaccinated, I’m totally fine with giving them a pass. A big reason for that is that I am confident the number of people in that situation is so small that it won’t matter, so long as every other person who can get vaccinated does get vaccinated.
Not at all. I heard it, considered it, and realized it was a silly objection mostly rooted in partisan politics, and therefore disingenuous in the extreme.
We have mandates for lots of things. It’s time for people to grow up and get over it. I’m a huge advocate for liberty, but I am intelligent enough to understand that sometimes my actions, inactions, or just characteristics (like if I carry disease) impact other people in a negative way. I don’t have a right to inflict disease on other people. No one does. Should they have just let Typhoid Mary continue to cook meals for people?
You have. What you haven't heard or provided is a rational reason to enact a mandate.
Absolutely. The math is clear.
Not for vaccinated people, which you clearly are. How are you going to demand everybody get a vaccine when you don't even understand how effective it is? FFS.
No. It's fascism to force them to do it. You're not so thick that you fail to comprehend the distinction.
If you're vaccinated, it's no longer deadly. Read the data.
No it isn’t. It’s public health and it’s common sense. Unless you also think drunk driving laws are fascist. In that case, I can’t help you.
Surely you’re not so thick that you don’t understand that 1) We need more people to get vaccinated or it doesn’t work for all of humanity, and 2) “Infectious” means that more people than yourself are at risk.
That’s not true. Just in my little county, 7 fully vaccinated people have died. According to the CDC , over 1,200 fully vaccinated people in 49 states have died from Covid. And as the thing mutates, it is becoming better at infecting people. The delta variant is 2 1/2 times as contagious as the original. The longer people go without getting vaccinated, the more chance it has to mutate into something worse. So the need to maximize vaccinations is urgent. We don’t have to time to wait around for people to work up the nerve to get vaccinated.
And we're finally to the math.
1200 people. Out of 164,000,000 vaccinated Americans.
You are more likely to drown than die of a breakthrough Covid infection.
Statistically, you are far, far, far less likely to die of a breakthrough Covid infection than you are of somebody giving you the flu. So if you want to mandate something, the math says you should mandate flu shots.
But of course we don't do that. Because that would be crazy.
Well, there's my friend's son who I mentioned above with severe lung damage. There's also the mayor of Topeka who is getting a pacemaker because of covid damaging her heart. Just because they haven't had it a long time yet doesn't mean their whole lives aren't altered for the worse.
I don’t have a vaccine for drowning, but I have the next best thing. I learned to swim. Additionally, if I’m in a fishing boat or otherwise risky waters, I might wear a life jacket, too. You take the steps that are available. For Covid, that means vaccine, masking, and social distancing.
The thing about drowning vs Covid, though, is that when I go in the water, I don’t put other people at risk of drowning. If I get infected with the Covid virus, I do put others at risk. Everyone who doesn’t get the vaccine is also putting others at risk.
As I pointed out further up, the death rate for Covid is still 10 times what it is for most flu variants. Additionally, many more people suffer permanent damage and suffering from Covid, unlike people who get over the flu and get back to normal life. Covid is still literally orders of magnitude worse than the flu.
Not. Among. Vaccinated. People.
As I pointed out further up, your math is wrong. You are using sampling based on the entire population, not the vaccinated half. Among the vaccinated half, your own data from 2.1.36 says the exact opposite of what you're now trying to assert.
The great irony here is that we have a group of people so fervently in favor of the vaccine that they see no problem running roughshod over basic civil rights, yet these same people cannot bring themselves to believe the vaccines are as effective as the data screams they are.
And so you oppose vaccine mandates because why then? Freedom?
People have a basic civil right not to live in pandemic conditions if we can avoid it. You don’t have a basic civil right to spread disease.
Why are you ignoring the fact that the disease spreads and mutates so long as people don’t get vaccinated? Do you not understand that viruses mutate if you let them spread?
nicely done Tacos!
Because you do not get to forcibly inject people under penalty of law simply because your inability to do the math has made you terrified.
And the vaccines have proven effective against every mutation so far.
So now you're trying to argue that we're supposed to forcibly inject people under penalty of law because you're scared of shit that shows no current signs of happening but might happen at some point in the future?? Interesting...because that is the exact reason you just used to discount any concerns about long term side effects.
I linked you to data showing it is happening. If you can’t be honest about the facts, we can’t talk. Have a nice weekend. We’re done.
You have linked data to show a variant for which the vaccines are ineffective? Oh...no...you haven't.
One last time... If you are vaccinated, you are safe from Covid. The emergency rooms are full of unvaccinated people. We are in a "pandemic of the unvaccinated".
The CDC says this almost daily. Dr. Fauci uses exactly those words. All of the numbers support them.
You should believe them.
Yes. I have demonstrated to to you that the virus can, and does, break through to infect vaccinated people, and kill them. These infections and deaths are 100% preventable if enough people get vaccinated. So it’s all well and good to observe that people are safer, but they would be totally safe from Covid if the lunatics of this world would get off their asses and get vaccinated.
You are dishonestly abridging and twisting their words. No one - NO ONE - has ever said vaccines were 100% effective. What they have said is that we needed a high percentage (like 80-90%) of people to get vaccinated. More than we currently have. You want to cite the words you just referenced, but you ignore this last part. Why? I think it’s so you can play this insensitive game where you pretend you care about liberty. But true patriots recognize the value of life.
Meanwhile, the delta variant, which is now responsible for about 90% of the new cases in the US, is infecting and killing fully vaccinated people and also young people, who can’t get vaccinated yet. Even one death is preventable. But you don’t care because of “muh freedoms!”
Defense of liberty is admirable. Defense of liberty that needlessly endangers others is reprehensible.
Well said Jack. I got the vaccine. I actively encourage others to get it. I’m not into using coercion or force to compel others to obey my will or get a thrill out of a power trip such control over the actions of others that that might provide. I think it insane to compel those who have already had covid to then get the vaccine or be excluded from society.
It has nothing to do with a power trip. It has to do with doing whatever is necessary to get over this pandemic. If people had a shred of common sense, they would try to get vaccinated ASAP. Instead, there are many who irrationally refuse to be vaccinated. You want to talk insanity? Now that is insane. Many businesses and healthcare institutions already mandate Covid vaccinations anyway. If people were smart enough to get the vaccine to begin with, there would be no need for mandates.
I think it insane to compel those who have already had covid to then get the vaccine or be excluded from society.
Scientists would disagree with you. According to a study published in The Lancet ( DOI: ), vaccination after already having Covid is best to maintain immunity and prevent a Covid resurgence. Reinfections can and do occur too. The CDC also recommends people get vaccinated even after a covid infection.
Doctors at Johns Hopkins Medicine state, " People who have gotten sick with COVID-19 may still benefit from getting vaccinated. Due to the severe health risks associated with COVID-19 and the fact that re-infection with COVID-19 is possible, people may be advised to get a COVID-19 vaccine even if they have been sick with COVID-19 before ." This is also backed by the University of Chicago Medicin e.
In addition, a study published by the CDC shows better antibody protection from the virus even after infection. In a nutshell, vaccination after infection will only keep the immune system primed, especially since new variants are arising which may reduce the efficacy of current vaccines.
So, when you or a loved one is dying - or just suffering long term - from a future breakthrough Covid infection, at least you can take solace in the fact that some random person wasn't compelled to get a vaccine against their will. Hurray Freedom! Because their momentary freedom is so much more important than another person's life.
Do you know the delta variant is infecting more young adults and kids than the original version? Do you understand that kids under 12 still can't get vaccinated? How many deaths are worth your right to not get poked with a needle?
I'm sorry, but if that is how your priorities work, I think that's insane.
Sure, but why would you take medical advice from career experts on infectious disease when you could simply follow the advice of some rando on the internet? /s
Of course! [slaps forehead] Silly me! Lol
Unfortunately, I forgot to use the proper quote function of xx's remark in my post 2.1.48, which I will do here. From xx post 2.1.47:
Lest anyone erroneously thinks his words are mine.
Don't forget about the possibility of unvaccinated people also spreading or causing the development of new variants, with the possibility of reducing the efficacy of vaccines. And all because some people refused or did not bother to get vaccinated, mandate or otherwise.
On top of that, the vaccine is not quite as effective against the delta variant. However, it does provide some protection. Hopefully, the vaccine (or a "pediatric" version of it) will be made available for kids under 12.
I tend to agree. Doing everything we reasonably can to end this pandemic so we can save lives, healthcare resources, and get back to "normal" should be top priority. Requiring a vaccination does not seem unreasonable. I can't think of a logical, legitimate reason why it would be (except possibly due to an allergic reaction).
No, that's what you're doing to mine.
Do cite where I have made such a claim.
They want everyone to get vaccinated. That's their job. And it's excellent advice.
Previous iterations of the disease are also infecting vaccinated people. The delta variant is more contagious, and the lambda variant is coming on. However the statistics are VERY clear that the vaccines are highly effective against the delta variant and initial studies indicate they are also effective against the lambda.
Math and science.
Many deaths are preventable. By far the top killers of Americans are obesity related conditions like heart disease and diabetes. Do you also intend to mandate diet and exercise?
And your freedoms. But more immediately, the freedoms of people who see things differently than we do.
Your irrational fear of a massively improbable occurrence does not give you the right to make everybody obey your will.
Please cite where the study endorses a mandate.
I guess the pro mandate sent their thugs into the streets to enforce vaccine and mask mandates earlier today.
the people Antifa referred to as anti vaxxers were actually anti mandates not anti vaccine.
Are those things contagious?
Stop grasping for false equivalencies to make the argument that we shouldn’t mandate vaccinations. Lack of vaccination affects other people, not just the unvaccinated individual. I have said that about a million times now and you refuse to acknowledge it each and every time. You want to talk about science? That’s basic science.
You’re not seeing it differently; you’re flat out refusing to look. Over and over again, I have tried to make you confront the reality that the virus is contagious and evolving . You ignore it. The difference in the way we see things is that I think needless suffering and death is urgent and you want to ignore it. I feel a responsibility to my fellow human beings and you think you have none.
Childrens hospitals are starting to overflow with sick and dying kids. Those infections are preventable because maximum vaccination inhibits spread of the disease, but you won’t help. How many kids have to die before you care about their lives more than the temporary pain of being stuck with a needle?
Children’s hospitals are swamped with Covid patients — and it may only get worse
You should visit some of those hospitals and explain to grieving parents how proud you are to be defending the rights of selfish, unvaccinated pussies who are afraid of the vaccine. I’m sure they’ll be very impressed. I’m sure they’ll feel a lot better about having their kid on a ventilator - or in a coffin.
When it comes to vaccinations.. other people's rights end where mine begin.
Not all rights are the same.
Applies across the board
I didn't say any study specifically endorses a mandate, unless one considers a recommendation a mandate. The studies show that vaccination after infection is recommended, which apparently some people seem to think is "insane." Also, the CDC certainly seems to support vaccine mandates.
So I presume, then, that you think a cook’s right to not wash his hands supersedes your right to not get food poisoning.
But unlike Covid, those things aren't contagious!
That's the most bs argument I have heard yet.. LOL
Let me make this easy for you.
The federal govt has no power to force vaccinations and We don't care about your fears.
The question isn't whether or not people should get vaccinated.
The question is whether we should force them. I've not seen that recommendation from the CDC.
Exactly! The issue is mandates and force to get it done. I’m opposed to that too. I’m in favor of the Trump vaccine and people making the free will choice to get vaccinated as I did.
They don’t have it but they are pressuring state and city governments as well as large employers to coerce it for them just like they use big tech social media as their tool to eliminate 1st amendment free speech rights.
I’ll ask you the same line of questioning I have posed to others. What is so egregious about this particular mandate? We have many mandates that impact public health. This is just another one.
Many schools from K-college require vaccinations, and they do so for obvious reasons that most sensible people understand. Many employers in both the public and private sectors also have such requirements for the employees. The military has vaccine requirements. But suddenly a vaccine requirement is unacceptable?
Restaurant employees are required to wash their hands after using the restroom. You can’t drink and drive. Many drugs are illegal. Prostitution is illegal. You can’t just do whatever you like with your body all the time.
Manufacturers, miners, loggers, and so on are subject to a multitude of regulations requiring them to be good stewards of the environment because it impacts public health. Sometimes complying with those regulations is onerous and expensive.
There is nothing new about coercing people to do - or refrain from doing - something that impacts public health.
Meanwhile, every day that people don’t get vaccinated is another day that children pour into hospitals and the virus is given another opportunity to mutate into something worse.
If you understand the urgency and the necessity of getting vaccinated for the health of your fellow human beings, why in the world wouldn’t you require it for those who should be able to tolerate it?
And even if you somehow want to carve out an exception for government coercion in this case, but not others, why wouldn’t you personally at least be doing and saying everything you could to compel, or even shame others into doing the right thing?
if that urgency was important they would not be sending covid infected illegals into our states.
If the left can support infected illegals being delivered by Biden into our states then you can tolerate the unvaccinated citizens as well.
Actually. You have no choice but to tolerate the unvaccinated as the feds simply ain't got the juice required to mandate states require all citizens to partake in a medical procedure of any kind against their will. This mandate would never survive the courts.
Every so called mandated vaccine to date comes with religious exemptions. When all is said and done this one will be no different.
Do you believe that Biden wants COVID infection numbers to go down or go up?
Largely I agree. We have a history of restricting people from engaging in select areas of society unless they are vaccinated. The idea is obvious, even a free society necessarily must protect the many at the expense of individual freedom. You have offered several examples of this.
Mandating people to take a vaccine is a forced imposition on the individual's person. That is a harsh and unprecedented act for the USA. What has been done in the past (e.g. Smallpox at the turn of the century) is to impose restrictions on how individuals interact within society. Thus, it is sensible to deny public school services to unvaccinated children in areas where there is a true threat to the health of school children. Restrictive measures like these do not mandate that a parent vaccinate their child but they do impose on individual freedom if one chooses to remain unvaccinated.
The principle of individual freedom is something we need to protect, but it is irresponsible to dogmatically cling to pure principle. There are times when select individual freedoms must be temporarily curtailed for the good of society. To ignore this is both naive and irresponsible.
To be clear, the above is me supporting your position.
Interestingly, I came across this editorial from 1923 in the NIH resources. This could have been written today:
Actually, there is ample legal precedent supporting vaccine mandates, and even the currently conservative Supreme Court knows this.
Justice Amy Coney Barrett declines to block Indiana University’s vaccine mandate
Barrett made her decision without explanation, but it had the effect of upholding the lower courts’ decisions, which did come with an explanation:
The rationale has long been obvious at the highest levels. In 1905, the SCOTUS ruled on Jacobson v Massachusetts , holding that the government could require people to get the smallpox vaccine or be fined.
Further, in the 1922 case of Zucht v King , the SCOTUS upheld the constitutionality of schools requiring vaccines.
The Court affirmed this approach in Prince v Massachusetts (1944), saying the children can still be required to be vaccinated even if the parent claims some religious objection.
Perfect.
Yes, we should! How else will we get over this pandemic. It's just common sense. We "force" children to be vaccinated. This is no different. It's just too bad some adults prefer to act like irresponsible children when it comes to vaccines.
You probably won't either. The Federal government is not likely to mandate vaccinations. Although, the states can, as do many businesses and healthcare institutions. But the CDC does endorse and recommend vaccination. I have little doubt the CDC would support a nationwide mandate too.
Antifa is the definition of pro ignorance and pro intolerance.
It’s not a lie. It’s the truth.
So....we should force everybody to do what you want simply because you can't think of a better idea.
I assure you we don't. Do you actually have children?
Or indeed public policy.
Hmmm... So we should listen to the CDC when they say stuff you like, but ignore them when they don't. Got it.
What business last asked you for your shot records? When is the last time the cashier at your grocery store asked for your "ID an Vax Card" when you tried to buy a case of beer? When is the last time somebody was turned away from an ER because their Diptheria shot was out of date or they hadn't been vaccinated for measles?
When you say 'force' do you mean that we go to their homes and force the vaccine into their bodies?
I am confident that you do not mean that, but I suspect that is how some are interpreting your word 'force'.
I suspect by 'force' you mean to deny them free access in areas where they could infect others and that by doing so we are forcing them to either get vaccinated or not enjoy all that benefits that are otherwise available to members of society.
No, it's so we can end the pandemic, save lives, spare resources, and get life back to "normal," as it were. That sounds like a good idea to me. What is a better alternative?
Are children not required to be vaccinated before going to school?
Quite true.
We should listen to the CDC, period. Neither did I say they said anything I didn't like. I said they probably won't post a mandate for vaccination.
I was referring to business employees, not customers. Although, few business (so far) are now starting to require proof of vaccinations from customers before entry.
No, that is not what I mean. Some seem to interpret things a little extreme. That's why I put "force" in quotes, as that is not the word I'd use. I am not saying we hold people down and shove a needle into them, just so the meaning is clear.
By "force," I mean mandating vaccinations. Denying them access, as you say, would be a consequence of not getting vaccinated.
Many healthcare institutions are making vaccination a requirement.
Absolutely! Not to mention irresponsible and inconsiderate.
Good! With the Delta variant, kids are more at risk. Masks are probably the simplest, best means to protect them.
I agree.
Dude....in what universe is it "normal" to be forcibly injected under penalty of law??
They're not required to go to school. About 9% of American kids are homeschooled, and online schools have been expanding for years.
Excellent. And they've been conspicuously silent on enacting a mandate.
Terms of employment are one thing. Although legal challenges being what they are, employers will probably have to demonstrate the necessity of mandatory vaccination as it relates to their industry. A hospital system in Houston recently won their lawsuit requiring all employees to be vaccinated. But a dry-cleaner or an accounting firm is probably going to have a tougher time.
Government mandates for all citizens are another matter entirely.
see @2.1.88 Gordy is not advocating using literal physical force to inject vaccine into an individual. Nor is he suggesting that it be against the law to exist unvaccinated (i.e. where an unvaccinated person can be arrested simply for existing unvaccinated). He is talking about restrictions on freedom to interact with others in society.
I presumed as much. He's not advocating that yet, anyway.
He certainly hasn't ruled it out, though.
But we're really fuzzy on what freedoms he intends to limit. For example, would you need to show your VaxPass to get in line to vote? How about camping in a state park? Playing golf? Eating at a restaurant? Eating outdoors at a restaurant? Walking around a shopping mall? Going to a high school football game?
Will they be required to wear some sort of identifying clothing, so the rest of us will be able to keep our children at a safe distance? Will there be a registry, so we know which people in our neighborhood we should stay away from? Maybe some sort of special mark on their front door?
It doesn't take very long at all for this to go completely off the rails. If we're willing (Gordy) or eager (Tacos) to restrict people's activity at this stage, we'll be willing to restrict it more when the virus still lingers.
The standard defense of every failed policy is "we didn't do enough of" whatever we were doing that didn't work. This will absolutely follow that pattern.
A sensible implementation would be vaccination cards and a system much like showing your ID before buying alcohol. The areas of application would be venues where there is close contact such as bars, concerts, sporting events with tight seating, etc. The restrictions would correlate with the infection heat of the area thus hot spots (geographical areas) for infection would have harsher restrictions and other areas where the infection rate is small would likely see only recommendations.
So, for example, golfing is a fine example where social distancing is recommended but no need for cards. But going to a crowded bar would / should be restricted to vaccinated (or equivalent) individuals. Further, employers where employees are in close proximity or where employees are customer-facing should be free to require vaccinations (or equivalent) as long as it is done to ensure the overall health of the staff and customers.
Finally, we should continue to educate the public on the need for and safety of vaccines in contrast to the consequences of acquiring COVID-19 and to the potential long-term health issues. We should continue to encourage everyone to get vaccinated and to make it as easy as possible to do so (and I think that part has been accomplished).
That is how I would approach this and I suspect this is similar to what Gordy might have in mind (at least in principle). Reminder: this varies per heat of the geographical area. So for the vast majority of the nation I would not see any restrictions beyond maybe masking and social distancing ... but that would change quickly if an area starts to break out with infections.
Yeah, give me time
People can be arrested if they knowingly infect someone with a disease such as HIV. It's not outside the realm of possibility that Covid could be included.
That would be up to those individual businesses to decide. If an area is covid free, then great. If not or if there are flare ups, then certain restrictions must be put into place.
All of this would be moot if people simply vaccinated.
Some are clearly not doing enough now.
Home schooling is up to almost 13% now and likely continue to grow in areas like Loudon County Virginia.
Several blue states have reduced or eliminated criminal penalties for those who knowingly involve themselves with others when they know that they are personally hiv positive and not disclose that fact.
37 states have criminal penalties for knowingly infecting someone.
Bullshit. I'm happy to look at any chart you want to throw up there. The whole tactic of "they don't want you to see this" is a lie intended to keep people in the "they're out to get us" mindset. It's a kind of brainwashing.
So, let's look at the first graph. Yes, cases and deaths are both lower than last year. That's good. What's not good is that both numbers are trending upward from about the start of July. That's a bad thing if you really need that pointed out. It's especially frustrating because as of about May of this year, everyone over the age of 12 could be vaccinated. So, the numbers should be trending down. While they trend up, the virus goes on mutating, become more and more contagious, so that everyone becomes vulnerable again.
Now, let's look at the second graph - the bar graph that shows fatality. Again, the numbers are down from last year, which is good. But the fatality rate is still ten times what it would be for a typical flu, which already kills 40 or 50,000 Americans every year and that's bad. And AGAIN: the virus continues to mutate while conspiracy theorists whine about their rights.
You know what else is bad? Surviving Covid. For most people, when you get over the flu, you're done. There are no lasting effects. But there are people who have survived Covid who have lung scarring worse than is seen in smokers. They will be on oxygen possibly for the rest of their lives. They also spend weeks, even months, in the hospital. That alone, can be a financial catastrophe for individuals and families, not to mention the physical and emotional suffering. So death isn't the only measurement of how terrible this virus is.
Everything I just said applies to the third chart as well. Stop making excuses for this anti-vaccine campaign. We need everyone - or as close as we can get to everyone - to be vaccinated as soon as possible. Then this can all be over.
Agree completely. My response is simpler: The May-August '21 parts of the charts should be straight lines toward 0.
Precisely.
I couldn't have said it better, and I have a degree in biology. Thanks for breaking it down so eloquently.
I’m not anti vaccine. Never have been.
LOL. That's damn funny.
On the subject of vaccines..
The CDC said.
"But what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."
Vaccinated people spread the virus also.
But the virus does not last as long in a vaccinated person. Vaccinated people do not infect others as much as do the unvaccinated.
Ergo: get vaccinated, wear masks, social distance
That is common sense stuff (also supported by science) to prevent infection or transmission of disease, right?
I used to think so, but nowadays it seems common sense is not common.
I tend to think it's becoming quite rare, unfortunately.
Yeah, but it’s a lot harder. That’s why we need as many people as possible to get vaccinated.
Then persuade them in a civil manner. The more threats and ridicule are used and the more talk of mandates and restrictions there are, the deeper the other side digs in and the reluctance spreads because of that. I know because I know unvaccinated that I’ve been trying since January to take it, and the more stuff they see like the language used here but in the public domain the harder they dig in and go to web sites pushing the anti vax side for reinforcement of their position. Antifa attacking an anti mandates rally in LA yesterday doesn’t help either.
Come to Florida, XX. 23,000 + new cases yesterday, over 14,000 hospitalized with COVID, 3,000 in ICU. I'm sure that everyone involved would tell you what to do with your charts/graphs.
At least he wouldn't be required to wear a mask.
Are you not aware of the history of the US government and Native Americans? Doesn't seem that you are yet we are the ethnic group that is the most vaccinated.
Best you save your ignorant spam BS for those in your circle.
The blacks in NY have a choice to get vaccinated or not, if they chose not to get the vaccine then they have a problem, just like anyone else no matter their color.
Best you stick to something that you actually have some knowledge of, and this isn't it.
Good advice Nabe kikinoo’amage
First they would tell joe to stop sending covid infected illegals into our states.
Why won't the left mandate vaccines for illegals?
Why won't millions of Americans get the vaccine? When you figure that out let me know.
I saw on Fox News yesterday and one of the commentators said out loud what I’ve been saying here, that the dispersal of illegal aliens around the country is in a pattern that largely matches where the covid 19 hit spots are now.
When liberals express the same concern and volume about Hispanic American and African American vaccine reluctance as they do about rural conservatives reluctance, i will listen. Until then our response will be exactly the same as what De Santis said to Biden regarding the border and covid.
A commentator on Fox News says something and you merely accept it as fact??
BS
No you won't.
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When joe vaccinates illegals he sends to our states I will believe the left has our best interests at heart.
Until then.... all I hear is hot air.
Telling us to get vaccinated while sending infected illegals into our states makes every argument from the left complete bull shit.
Truth is..... Joe's illegals are the largest super spreader event yet.
When the left complains about the infected illegals being bused into our states, then and only then do they get to complain about me.
No surprise there. The left blaming us for the mess they cause is no surprise either. But thinking we will fall for their bs concern trolling is simply priceless 🤣
They are mad at citizens for not getting vaccinated... but they don't give one fuk about joe sending thousands of infected illegals to our states.
Their so called "concern" is a joke.
I believed it to be true long before she said that and have posted it here before when I accused biden of deliberately sending covid positive illegals into red state communities across the south and the plains states.
Nope. It’s true.
And you are as partisan on the left as I am on the right.
And in March Biden deliberately sent them into states that first completely re opened and ended mask mandates. That is where infected aliens went first. Florida, Mississippi, and Texas beyond the border area. Biden is using covid as a weapon to try to take down red states that reopened well before the blue ones did and gained economic advantages for doing so.
Obviously.
I really don't care what you believe, FortunateSon.
Your comments are simply the ranting of someone with no facts.
Of course you believe that Biden would deliberately work to sabotage his #1, most visible, most critical objective of ridding the nation of the COVID pandemic.
Biden naturally seeks a legacy of failing in the most important initiative of his presidency.
Why would Biden deliberately spread the infection? He is focused on ridding the nation of the virus. He is graded on ridding the nation of the virus. Hello?
It is easy for anyone with an understanding of national politics and the incompetence of government bureaucracy to see how this can happen. But to view this failure as a deliberate act by Biden rather than a frustrating and inexcusable consequence of partisan compromise + incompetent bureaucracy is naive and irrational.
Some people are aligned with a particular political party based on rational positions based largely on verifiable facts while others operate on beliefs derived by simply accepting as truth whatever their 'trusted' sources tell them to believe.
There is your difference.
You can see the key difference. The former often can defend their positions whereas the latter are clueless and 'defend' their positions by quoting words from other human beings in lieu of being able to form their own cogent argument.
Two facts.
1) My naturally acquired immunity to covid is stronger and will last much longer than the current so called "vaccines"
2) anyone who needs me to get that "vaccine" to save their lives had better bring their last will and testament up to date.
Especially considering that they're now indicating that those of us who got the "vaccines" (Moderna for the wife and me) will apparently need to get a "booster". But weren't vaccines going to be mankind's savior? Oop's, Faucci wrong again.
I cannot help you with that illusion.
If that's your reality, so be it,
just try not to include me in it.
No, Every flu vaccine needs to be repeated annually. COVID falls into the same group as SARS & H1N1 for annual shots.
Nope, but you were obviously exaggerating, right? The unproven vaccines were administered under Emergency orders by the FDA and were only expected to abate the high death rates of last year and relieve enough symptoms to keep people out of the hospitals.
But you knew that.
Why do you believe that? Here is one of many indications that you are mistaken:
This is a public service announcement
No one forced you to read or respond to a single thing I post or seed.
" Researchers studied Kentucky residents with a lab-confirmed coronavirus infection in 2020, the vast majority of them between October and December. They compared 246 people who got reinfected in May or June of this year with 492 similar survivors who stayed healthy. The survivors who never got vaccinated had a significantly higher risk of reinfection than those who were fully vaccinated, even though most had their first bout of COVID-19 just six to nine months ago."
"Scientists say infection does generally leave survivors protected against a serious reinfection at least with a similar version of the virus, but blood tests have signaled that protection drops against worrisome variants ."
" The amount of natural immunity can vary from person to person , possibly depending on how sick they were to begin with . The Rush University study found four of 29 previously infected people had no detectable antibodies before they were vaccinated — and the vaccines worked for them just like they work for people who never had COVID-19."
What forces you to seed extremist opinions from one questionable or religiously biased source day after day?
I do not recognize the legitimacy of the opinion of the so called fact checkers for one but will comply with the letter of the rules relating to it while saying so. They are not extremist to me and to me are mainstream conservative and evangelical Christian sources. And who in the heck do you think you are to determine which religions or denominations and their publications are too biased or unsuitable to be the basis of belief or opinion expressed here? Christians of certain beliefs or denominations should not have to rely on other Christian sources that may or may not agree with us just because non religious people at the fact checker used here doesn’t like our views , whether it be on origins or angels or human sexuality and marriage.
Well there's something else you assume but cannot prove.
If they are in any way religious it makes their open bigotry and hateful against Orthodox Jews, Reform Muslims, and evangelical Christians even worse and more inexcusable on their part.
You think that irreligious people hate religious people?? Maybe that is how you respond to the irreligious, but I assure you that not believing in a god does not in itself cause people to hate those who do believe in a god.
Case in point, most all of my friends and family have been and are religious. This has been true for my entire life. I do not hate them in any way simply because of their beliefs. My best friends are Catholic and do indeed believe in the Christian god. Also, plenty of people believe in spiritual entities (ghosts, etc.). I do not, but I have no emotional or judgmental views on those beliefs. We all have beliefs of some sort, hating or looking down on individuals simply because of a belief is irrational.
Finally, I despise Ken Ham and Kenneth Copeland. Not because of what they believe, but because of the damage they deliberately seek to inflict on others. Ken Ham seeks to dumb down his followers so that they reject established science in favor of religious beliefs (e.g. the Young Earth nonsense). That is damaging. Kenneth Copeland continues to exploit his flock to enrich himself while giving them false promises. Copeland is a grand liar and thief. I despise him because of that, not because he is religious (and, by they way, I do not believe he is actually religious).
You, once again, demonstrate that you simply do not comprehend the irreligious. In doing so, you have shown that you are the one who translates difference in religious beliefs into hatred and bigotry.