The Offer that Turns the Gaza Strip into Singapore
The Offer that Turns the Gaza Strip into Singapore
by Bassam Tawil, Gatestone Institute, February 21 2017
The Palestinian Islamic movement Hamas has once again demonstrated its priorities: killing Jews. That clearly takes precedence over easing the plight of the two million Palestinians living under its rule in the Gaza Strip.
Since Hamas violently seized control of the Gaza Strip in the summer of 2007, the conditions of the Palestinians living there have gone from bad to worse. Crisis after crisis has hit those under the Hamas rule; electricity and water as well as lack of medicine and proper medical care are in dangerously short supply.
Disputes between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority have left the Gaza Strip dangerously short of fuel, resulting in massive power outages. Palestinians there consequently have had to resort to using wood for cooking and heating. Hamas, which has brought about three wars that wreaked havoc on its people, is unable to provide them with basic needs.
Last week, Hamas received an offer that no sane entity would turn down. It is to be noted that the offer did not come from Hamas's friends and allies in Iran and the Arab and Islamic world. Rather, the offer, which promises to turn the Gaza Strip, where most residents live in the poverty of "refugee camps," into "the Singapore of the Middle East," came from Israel.
Specifically, the offer was made by Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman, who proposed building a seaport and an airport, as well as industrial zones that would help create 40,000 jobs in the Gaza Strip, if Hamas agreed to demilitarization and to dismantling the tunnels and rocket systems it has built up.
"The Gazans must understand that Israel, which withdrew from the Gaza Strip to the last millimeter, is not the source of their suffering -- it is the Hamas leadership, which doesn't take their needs into consideration," Lieberman said in a televised message to the residents of the Gaza Strip. "The moment Hamas gives up its tunnels and rockets, we'll be the first to invest."
Only Israel has ever made such an offer to Hamas. Such a plan would vastly improve the living conditions of the Gaza Strip population. All Hamas is required to do is abandon its weapons and plans to kill Jews, and return the bodies of missing Israeli soldiers.
A seaport and an airport would place the Gaza Strip on the global map and open it to investors not only from Israel, but from many other countries as well. Arab and Islamic states, however, are unlikely to rush in to invest in Gaza because, by and large, they despise the Palestinians. One of these countries, Egypt, imposes strict travel restrictions on the Palestinians in Gaza by keeping the Rafah border crossing closed for most days of the year. The Palestinians of the Gaza Strip are considered personae non gratae in many Arab and Islamic countries. Why? Perhaps because they see them as a security threat. Or perhaps simply because they hate their Arab brothers.
Still, there is no shortage of investors in the West who, if given the opportunity and the proper political climate, would not hesitate to invest their money in the Gaza Strip.
Sadly for the residents of Gaza, none of this is going to happen. Their leaders in Hamas, some of whom have accumulated large fortunes and are living comfortable lives in oil-rich Gulf countries, are not interested in alleviating their people's misery. On the contrary; Hamas wants its people suffering, as bitter Palestinians are perfect candidates for recruitment to the jihad (holy war) against Israel, the Jews and the West.February 21, 2017
But all of this takes some spin -- at which Hamas, like its rival, the Palestinian Authority, is masterful. Whatever goes wrong in their territories as a result of their failed policies, Israel is to blame.
Israel's latest offer to clean up the murderous mess that is now the Gaza Strip was rejected within hours of its delivery. One Hamas spokesman after the other made it clear that the Islamic movement is not interested in turning the Gaza Strip into "the Singapore of the Middle East," but rather wishes to maintain its current status as a base for jihad and the promotion of extremist ideology, anti-Semitism and anti-Western sentiments.
Why did Hamas reject an offer for a seaport, airport and tens of thousands of jobs for Palestinians? Because Hamas does not see its conflict with Israel as an economic issue. The dispute is not about improving the living conditions of Palestinians, as far as Hamas is concerned. Instead, it is about the very existence of Israel.
"The Israeli offer is a silly one," explained Palestinian political analyst Ibrahim Al-Madhoun. "Hamas rejected it because Hamas does not wish to turn the case of liberating the land and Palestinians into an economic issue."
To clarify further: Hamas does not want a new "Singapore" in the Middle East. Hamas wants Israel to disappear from the Middle East and ideally from the face of the earth. The welfare of Palestinians living under its rule is the last thing on the mind of Hamas.
Strikingly, Hamas leaders openly admit all of this. "If we wanted to turn the Gaza Strip into Singapore, we could have achieved that with our own hands," declared senior Hamas official Mahmoud Zahar. He went on to say that Hamas is continuing to prepare for war with Israel in order to "liberate all of Palestine."
The "settlements," to them, are not Judea, Samaria and east Jerusalem; they are Haifa, Jaffa (Tel Aviv), all of Jerusalem, all of Israel. Just look at any map of Palestine: the outline is identical to -- superimposed on -- Israel.
Hamas deserves credit for one thing: its honesty concerning its intentions to destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as possible. Hamas does not want 40,000 new jobs for the poor unemployed Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. It would rather see these unemployed Palestinians join its ranks and become soldiers in the jihad to replace Israel with an Islamic empire.
Palestinian leaders are experts at rejecting Israeli gestures and offers for peace. While Hamas continues to say "no" to ending the suffering of the people living under its thumb, the Palestinian Authority continues to reject various Israeli offers for peace. In the past two decades, Palestinian leaders have rejected the advances of all Israeli prime ministers who offered them concessions and compromise. Indeed, Hamas and the Palestinian Authority share a deadly determination to sacrifice as many Palestinians as possible in their war to destroy Israel.
Bassam Tawil is a scholar based in the Middle East.
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A while ago multi-millions of dollars were pledged to rebuild and improve Gaza's infrastructure. When it appeared that there was little intention to use that money for positive development, much of the pledges were cancelled, and the millions of dollars that Gaza did get were used to fatten the Hamas leadership's bank accounts or to buy weapons and build tunnels for the purpose of attacking Israel. As for the impoverished people of Gaza? If ever there were a situation where a revolution was needed - but they would rather be enslaved by their Hamas masters.
"Lord, what fools these mortals be." (Shakespeare - A Midsummer Night's Dream)
As much as it pains me to say this, unless the Palestinians overthrow throw the terrorist group that rules them, they made their own bed here.
Gaza is under Israeli occupation, not because Israel is present inside Gaza, but because Israel controls all access to it by land, air, and sea. This has been repeatedly recognized. All people who are occupied have a right to resist. The Palestinians want a separate state. Israel committed to a two-state solution and then promptly proceeded to undermine it by expanding settlements so that a viable Palestinian state is not possible.
Now, Israel holds out a promise of making Gaza into a Singapore, an idea that is at least 30 years old and not that long ago put forward by Hamas, itself. Access to this new Singapore would, no doubt, still be controlled by Israel. There should be no condition on independence and the Gazans should be as free to elect their government as the Israelis are who elected that asshole Netanyahu. Being able to elect who you want is the very point of freedom. Give the Palestinians independence and they can turn themselves into Singapore.
Sure, 1ofmany, just as soon as Hamas stops its incitement of and reverses it's carved-in-stone declaration to "liberate" ALL of Palestine (which on their maps includes all of Israel), which they intend to accomplish by destroying Israel and annihilating the Jews, stopping firing rockets and missiles at Israeli civilian centres, filling in the tunnels they built to invade Israel to kill and kidnap Jews by using the materials allowed to them to rebuild buildings and infrastructure, then the Gazans can freely cross the borders and return to the good-paying jobs in Israel that they were prevented from going to after they elected Hamas to govern them and THEN they will not be able to cry about being occupied. There was no need for "resistance" before Hamas started its unofficial war against Israel - hey don't you recall that Israel VACATED Gaza, dragged the Jews living there from their homes? But tell me, 1ofmany, why doesn't Egypt open its border with Gaza? Are you even willing to admit why, or do you think only Israel is to be blamed for the blockade?
Oh, and the Gazans WERE free to elect their own government, but they foolishly elected Hamas, didn't they?
There was no need for "resistance" before Hamas started its unofficial war against Israel - hey don't you recall that Israel VACATED Gaza, dragged the Jews living there from their homes? But tell me, 1ofmany, why doesn't Egypt open its border with Gaza? Are you even willing to admit why, or do you think only Israel is to be blamed for the blockade?
Closing the Egyptian border is one thing; controlling all other access by land, air, and sea is something else. The negotiations for an independent Palestinian state are with Israel and Israel alone because Israel controls Gaza. Israel knows it, the Palestinians know it, and you know it. The Palestinians want a separate state Buzz. As long as Israel controls access to Gaza, Gaza is occupied as a matter of international law. As long as there is occupation, there will be resistance. Freedom is not a gift; it is a right.
Oh, and the Gazans WERE free to elect their own government, but they foolishly elected Hamas, didn't they?
Israel was free to elect its own prime minister and they foolishly elected Netanyahu. That's what democracy is all about.
But I'm now fine with a one state solution. Make Gaza and the West Bank part of Israel and all of the Palestinians can become Israeli citizens.
Very well said 1ofmany! I agree completely! Especially the last paragraph!
Both of you would like to open the doors and let the Iranian arms and missiles be shipped into Gaza. I guess everyone knows what Hamas would do with them, as do both of you, and so obviously you agree with what the result would be. I'll say no more.
If it happens you only have Bibi to thank. His refusal, despite his words, to move toward a two state solution is the main impediment to peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. It is obvious that he wants to annex the West Bank and create a lower class of people of the Palestinians. Well if he wants a one state solution and it's obvious he does by building more and more and more and more and more settlements in what would be the Palestinian state IF there was a two state solution, then let him have all of the land, including the West Bank and Gaza, BUT give all of the Palestinians full Israeli citizenship, including the vote! This is a case of Bibi not being careful and thinking through what he is pushing for!
I agree completely. Take it all and choke on it.
"Take it all and choke on it."
That sounds like a death wish to me. No surprise considering its source.
That sounds like a death wish to me. No surprise considering its source.
Stuffing yourself has consequences.
So you are verifying that you death wished me. Sorry, but I don't intend to satisfy you in that regard.
So you are verifying that you death wished me. Sorry, but I don't intend to satisfy you in that regard.
Good for you. Maybe Israel can come to the same common sense conclusion.
"Make Gaza and the West Bank part of Israel and all of the Palestinians can become Israeli citizens."
Lol. They are terrorists. Even Arab nations don't want that trash. You are calling for genocide.
And all Black people are gang members and all Muslims are terrorists and hey did you know Mexicans are rapists and murders? Ask Trump. He'll tell you. And all whatever race or religion you pick its a stereotype you have decided already that they are. The Palestinians want to live in peace, instead of being 2nd class people. They want their own country of Palestine. But if Bibi won't agree to it (and it is completely his decision, though he should be careful what he is wishing for), then have it all become Israel and let them live in peace as Israeli citizens with something much, much more powerful then any bomb, the vote!
Wrong. A majority of Palestinians elected terrorists to rule them. Your trite analogy is worthless.
Lol. They are terrorists. Even Arab nations don't want that trash. You are calling for genocide.
Then choose the two-state solution.
The Palestinians won't negotiate.
True. I still support a two state solution. The Palestinians must negotiate in good faith. It's up to them to determine the nature of their state by their behavior. Any two state solution must be set up in such a way as to ensure Israels security on Israels terms.
The negotiations for an independent Palestinian state are with Israel and Israel alone because Israel controls Gaza
False--- Hamas controls Gaza. BOTH Egypt and Israel have a blockade (although interestingly, you appear to be under the delusion that only Israel doers).
And BTW, negotiations with Gaza are impossible because the rulers of Gaza have never agreed to negotiate-- their stated putpose is to exterminate the Jews. (However the other entity that should probably become part of any Palestinian state , the West Bank, has had rulers who have negotiated off and on with Israel).
How many Jews now live in Gaza?
None. Isn't that what's called "Apartheid"?
Buzz, how would you like to see this 70 year long conflict end? Let's pretend you can wave a magic wand. What will happen?
The intransigent Palestinians would accept the offers Israel already made to them of 95% or 97% of what they wanted and not walk away from them. They are not in a position to make demands, so it seems to me that those offers were pretty attractive and would have created a peaceful settlement of the conflict.
That 95% to 97% does not include their own country.
"That 95% to 97% does not include their own country."
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
It includes a to be determined amount of land that will be under constant Israeli "guard" which means a form of occupation or military control. They will be allowed to elect their own government, but Israel will never allow them to be a truly independent nation and Israel has never made an offer that allows that to happen. And Israel will always claim Jerusalem as their own.
If the Palestinians have a problem with that, then maybe they and the surrounding Arab countries should have left well enough alone when Partition happened. Then Israel would be confined to its narrow sliver of land with definite borders and Jerusalem would have been internationalized. It was Abbas who said that they made a terrible mistake then - so now they have to live with the consequences.
The partition should have never happened in the first place. If I could go back in time I would have voted against establishing a nation of Israel where other people already lived. It was a recipe for the trouble it as been for the last 60 + years. Still, it's there, so now we have to deal with the realities that we have.
That means to me that your attitude towards Israel is very different than just a dislike for Bibi and his government. You don't put any consideration to the fact that Jews have lived there for thousands of years, and that there are historical rights that you ignore. You probably agree then with what UNESCO has been doing to historical Jewish sites.
What it means is that I think that establishing a Jewish state there where people already live and have lived there for a long time and don't give a shit about the bible, which is a book of fairy-tales, myths and fireside bragging battle stores, based on that exact same book of fairy-tales, myths and fireside bragging tales is and was a bad idea (in fact an incredibly STUPID idea!) because it would and has led to war, including insurgencies and terrorism, many, many may almost uncountable deaths and will not lead to any form of peace for the foreseeable future. It was a BAD idea! Get it? A stupid IDEA! BAD! Wrong thing to DO! Not a GOOD plan! A whole bunch of people have HISTORICAL CLAIMS TO THAT LAND!!! All of them based of whatever book of fairy-tales they believe in!
However, it happened (as much as I would have tried to stop it) so the reality is that we have to come up with an nearly impossible way to make all parties happy. Personally, considering the manner of the establishment of the modern Israeli state, I don't think that is possible in my lifetime, our children's lifetime, our grandchildren's lifetime, for about 8 or 10 generations.
A whole bunch of people have HISTORICAL CLAIMS TO THAT LAND!!!
Or how long (100's and 1000's of years) that their people have lived there too along WITH the Jews!
Well, Randy, as I've said, your negative feelings about Israel run a lot deeper than just hating Bibi and his government. In fact they are about the same as the feelings that Iran and Hamas have about Israel. Please take note that I am NOT calling you an anti-Semite because I KNOW you are not - but we are on opposite poles when it comes to Israel. Best we not continue this dialogue because neither of us will convince the other of our opinion on it and it will just go downhill. You are my friend and will remain so notwithstanding.
Impasse
Wyoming would have been a nice place....
Wyoming? How about next door to you?
There is already a whole bunch of Jews living here! LOL!
All I have to do to run into one too many Jews is to go over to the bedroom side of my house! Oy Vey!!!
Impasse - agreed.
Or how long (100's and 1000's of years) that their people have lived there too along WITH the Jews!
Actually several groups of people have lived there-- both Jews and non-Jews. So why are you in favour of yet another homeland for the Arabs-- but not one for the Jews?
Actually several groups of people have lived there-- both Jews and non-Jews. So why are you in favour of yet another homeland for the Arabs-- but not one for the Jews?
There are only two solutions: either one state or two states. If you eliminate the two state option, then all the Palestinians will live in Israel (one state) and you will have eliminated the homeland for the Jews.
That 95% to 97% does not include their own country.
Bullshit. Just more lies....
Once again your ignorance of the situation is showing.
American presidents of both parties tried to solve the problem-- but perhaps no American president tried as hard as Bill Clinton. He got major concessions from Israel-- including an agreement for a Palestinian state by then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak!
Based on the Israeli definition of the West Bank, Barak offered to form a Palestinian state initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is, 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 10–25 years, the Palestinian state would expand to a maximum of 92% of the West Bank (91 percent of the West Bank and 1 percent from a land swap). [5] [7]
I dont know what offers you are referring to. Just tell us how you think this all should end. What land do the Palestinians get?
Do your own research - the history of the offers exists. How the hell would I know where to draw the lines? The offers had to do with land trades that would satisfy both sides, or else co-operative mutual agreements were expected.
You seem to know what should be done, that is why I am asking you. If you can't answer the question, fine.
I've said what I've said. I don't intend to discuss how many angels can dance on the end of a pin. You can conjecture to your heart's delight - it's your privilege, but I don't have time to debate what you can find out for yourself using google. There you'll find out all the facts and opinions you're looking for.
Israel's final solution: take all the fucking land bit by bit until the Palestinians are pushed into the sea.
Yeah, your poor starving Palestinians get pushed all the way to HERE:
As near as I can tell, Rawabi cannot be functional without water and access to water is controlled, in part, by Israel. But what difference does Rawabi make if it sits on occupied territory controlled by Israel? The Palestinians want a viable independent state not a city in an occupied territory. You can't create a viable Palestinian state if Israel expands its settlements.
Israel's final solution: take all the fucking land bit by bit until the Palestinians are pushed into the sea.
Actually in recent years, Israel has returned much more land to the Palestinians than they have taken. As a result of the '67 war, Israel ended up oupying both The West Bank and Gaza. Since then they ended their occupation of Gaza-- there's no longer a single Jew in the entire place!
Gaza is, in fact, an independent, self-governing country. (The only reason the Arabs don't want to admit it is that it hurts their narrative of victimhood)..
The West bank is still occupied-- but Gaza is ruled by the Palestinians.
And Israel gave back the Sinai and access to the Suez Canal to Egypt in order to make peace, which in the case of Egypt the government has maintained the peace, and has not fired missiles into Israel like Hamas has done notwithstanding Israel vacated Gaza, and then there was no blockade, or what 1ofmany calls occupation, until Hamas started a war against Israel. As it happens, was it wise for Israel to give up the Sinai now that ISIS is there with Hamas that have accessed it through tunnels and are firing missiles into Israel from there?
Actually in recent years, Israel has returned much more land to the Palestinians than they have taken. As a result of the '67 war, Israel ended up oupying both The West Bank and Gaza. Since then they ended their occupation of Gaza-- there's no longer a single Jew in the entire place!
This is total nonsense. Israel is spreading settlements over the land and decreasing the mount of land available to the Palestinians for the express purpose of making any future Palestinian state non-viable.
Gaza is, in fact, an independent, self-governing country. (The only reason the Arabs don't want to admit it is that it hurts their narrative of victimhood)..
It is as independent as a South African bantustan. The only reason the Israelis don't want to admit it is that they're full of shit.
This is total nonsense. Israel is spreading settlements over the land and decreasing the mount of land available to the Palestinians for the express purpose of making any future Palestinian state non-viable.
FACT: Israel occupied, and controlled-- the entire Gaza Strip. Then-- they returned all of it to the Palestinians!
FACT: Israel occupied, and controlled-- the entire Gaza Strip. Then-- they returned all of it to the Palestinians!
Israel simply withdrew from inside Gaza to control it from the outside the same way South Africa controlled the bantustans.
1of, what of the Egyptians? They also control the movement of people at the border crossing there. Why haven't they called for the violent overthrow and death of the Egyptians? At what point do they do what's right for the people that want nothing more than a happy, productive life?
I already made that point here Six:
"But tell me, 1ofmany, why doesn't Egypt open its border with Gaza? Are you even willing to admit why, or do you think only Israel is to be blamed for the blockade?"
He just sloughed that off. His response was:
"Closing the Egyptian border is one thing; controlling all other access by land, air, and sea is something else. The negotiations for an independent Palestinian state are with Israel and Israel alone because Israel controls Gaza."
He knows that if the blockade ends, the Iranians will outfit Hamas like they did with Hezbollah at the Lebanese border with thousands of missiles. 1ofmany doesn't give a shit if the Israelis are all murdered.
The creation of a Palestinian state is a negotiation with Israel not Egypt. If Israel wants a chance to live peacefully, then stop expanding settlements onto the land that makes a viable Palestinian state possible. Or accept a one-state solution and make the Palestinians Israeli citizens. Or fight over that postage stamp sized piece of land until the two sides tear it to pieces.
Or accept a one-state solution and make the Palestinians Israeli citizens.
Arabs living in Israel are citizens. They comprize over 20% of the population.
Israel currently has no say over Arabs living in other parts of what was once the British Mandate of Palestine (now Jordan, Gaza, and Egypt-- all of which have self-rule)
Arabs living in Israel arecitizens. They comprize over 20% of the population.
That's a good start now either finish it and take all the Palestinians or agree to a two-state solution.
Israel currently has no say over Arabs living in other parts of what was once the British Mandate of Palestine (now Jordan, Gaza, and Egypt-- all of which have self-rule)
Israel has no say over Arabs living in France either. Gaza is occupied by Israel; Jordan and Egypt are not.
Gaza is occupied by Israel;
Nope. Here are the facts:
1. Before 1967 it was occupied by Egypt.
2.1967 -2005 it was occupied by Israel. That occupatin eded in 2005.
3. Now there are no longer Egyptian nor Israeli troops occupying it-- they have self-rue.
(How can you say its occupied byisrael -- there are no longer Israeli troops there...? You might as well say its "occupied" by Egypt-- or Britain-- or Turkey-- since all of thise also you to be there and controlled it).
Are you going to now claim that Germany is "occupied" by the U.S., France, Britain, and Russia-- because long ago these 4 countries did occupy it (but no longer do?)
The idea that Gaza is not under Israeli control is patently ridiculous. Israel controls access by land, sea, and air. It controls access to water. It enters whenever it please. Gaza is about as independent as a South African bantustan . . . also supposedly self governing, complete with bantustan citizenship, yet totally under the thumb of South Africa. Israel objected to the United Nations recognizing a Palestinian state. Why? Because Israel said that a Palestinian state can only be created after bilateral negotiations between the Palestinians and Israel. . . . not the Palestinians and Jordan, not the Palestinians and Egypt, not the Palestinians and Syria, not the Palestinians and the old Turkish empire but Israel. Now why is that? Because Israel considers the Palestinian Territories to be under it's control. They know it, the Palestinians know it, i know it, and you know it.
I believe the Oslo Accords required that the border between Israel and the intended Palestinian State had to be negotiated between the parties - and since the Palestinians refuse to negotiate, then they cannot become a State reconized by the UN as being one.
I believe the Oslo Accords required that the border between Israel and the intended Palestinian State had to be negotiated between the parties - and since the Palestinians refuse to negotiate, then they cannot become a State recognized by the UN as being one.
And that's covered under the Oslo accords because the Palestinian Territories were occupied by Israel. If Israel no longer controls/occupies Gaza, then the accords should not be a basis for objecting to the admission of a Palestinian state, even if the state is just a city state like Gaza. But Israel wants it both ways: Gaza is independent or dependent depending on what suits Israel's argument at that particular moment.
The idea that Gaza is not under Israeli control is patently ridiculous. Israel controls access by land, sea, and air.
False.
Israel does not in any way control access betwee Gaza and Egypt--- Egypt does.
Egypt is a sovereign country (although given some of the nonsense you've been espousing, since Israel controls its border with Egypt i wouldn't be surprised if you're about to claim that Egypt is "occupied by Israel"!). Any passage of goods and/or people between Egypt & Gaza happens only when Egypt allows it-- not Israel!
The idea that Gaza is not under Israeli control is patently ridiculous. Israel controls access by land, sea, and air.
False.
Israel does not in any way control access betwee Gaza and Egypt--- Egypt does.
And Israel controls everything else.
Egypt is a sovereign country (although given some of the nonsense you've been espousing, since Israel controls its border with Egypt i wouldn't be surprised if you're about to claim that Egypt is "occupied by Israel"!). Any passage of goods and/or people between Egypt & Gaza happens only when Egypt allows it-- not Israel!
Nobody but you is discussing Egypt's sovereignty. No doubt you would take the preposterous position that the South African bantustans were independent of South Africa because whites didn't live there, blacks were self governing, and the Bantustan had its own citizenship. Then you could add the completely irrelevant fact that the bantustan also bordered Botswana and argue that the bantustan is, therefore, actually under the control of Botswana, not South Africa.
Here's a link that may give more insight into another aspect of life in Gaza we don't often hear about.
I once test-drove a Mercedes for about 5 hours without needing to stop to rest, and perhaps because of its seating and handling I considered it the most comfortable and best car I ever drove. Because i was pretty successful in my profession I owned over the years cars such as Cadillac, Olds 98, Buick, Peugeot 604 (the Cadillac of France), Toyota Camry, Volvo 760 GLE, etc none of them matched that Mercedes, but unfortunately I couldn't afford it. I'm happy to see that in the Gaza "concentration camp" there are Gazans who can afford one because there would not be a dealership there, advertising them, if nobody could afford them. I don't think any of the prisoners in Auschwitz or Bergen-Belsen or Buchenwald were able to own one.
People have a right to be free of occupation whether or not the occupied territory has a Mercedes dealership. You should have been around to tell your story to the French resistance. After you pointed out that they have at least one fancy car dealership and they aren't being exterminated, they would surely realize how good they have it and just settle down to life under a Nazi thumb.
Obviously no good reason to waste my time on this any more.
Gaza is under Israeli occupation, not because Israel is present inside Gaza, but because Israel controls all access to it by land, air, and sea;
Your ignorance is showing.
The fact is-- Gaza borders two countries, not one. Even if Israel managed to make their border literally airtight, they wouldn't be able to control access from Egypt.
Gaza is under Israeli occupation, not because Israel is present inside Gaza, but because Israel controls all access to it by land, air, and sea;
Your ignorance is showing.
It may show but could never eclipse yours.
The fact is-- Gaza borders two countries, not one. Even if Israel managed to make their border literally airtight, they wouldn't be able to control access from Egypt.
Who gives a fuck if it borders two countries and who said the border had to be airtight in order to have a country? We have a country with two borders and our southern border damn sure isn't airtight. The current negotiation is between Israel and the Palestinians for a "viable" Palestinian state on the land that encompasses the West Bank and Gaza . . . both of which are occupied territories CONTROLLED by Israel.
the West Bank and Gaza . . . both of which are occupied territories CONTROLLED by Israel.
What about Gaza's border with Egypt? (If Israel closed their border, and Egypt opened it-- why would it matter what Israel did?
If it became one state, and the Palies were to become citizens of Israel, rest assure that they would fuck up Israel until it resembled Gaza.
Too bad. Either it's a one-state solution or a two-state solution. Pick before the choice becomes academic.
If it became one state, and the Palies were to become citizens of Israel, rest assure that they would fuck up Israel until it resembled Gaza.
That is completely up to Bibi and no one else!
No it isn't. It's up to the people of Israel. Israel is a "majortiy rules" democracy. If they wanted someone other than Bibi to rule, then they can vote him out. Contrary to elections in the USA, majority rules, and I thought you wished that were true.
Wasn't a two state solution offered many years ago? And didn't Arafat step on that? The Leadership (I won't say the Palestinians) don't want peace-kill or be killed is the only way they are willing to exist-as long as they themselves don't get killed, they have uneducated subjects for that.
Wasn't a two state solution offered many years ago? And didn't Arafat step on that?
Yup-- Camp David. Under Clinton:
The 2000 Camp David Summit was a summit meeting at Camp David between United States president Bill Clinton , Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak and Palestinian Authority chairman Yasser Arafat . The summit took place between 11 and 25 July 2000 and was an effort to end the Israeli–Palestinian conflict . The summit ended without an agreement.
It failed. When asked why, at first Clinton was diplomatic-- refused to blame either side.
But later he admitted that it was the Palestinians who refused to make peace:
Clinton blamed Arafat after the failure of the talks, stating, "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace." The failure to come to an agreement was widely attributed to Yasser Arafat , as he walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer and because Arafat did little to quell the series of Palestinian riots that began shortly after the summit. [30] [31] [32]
Arafat was also accused of scuttling the talks by Nabil Amr , a former minister in the Palestinian Authority . [33]
In My Life , Clinton wrote that Arafat once complimented Clinton by telling him, "You are a great man." Clinton responded, "I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you made me one." [34]
Wasn't a two state solution offered many years ago? And didn't Arafat step on that? The Leadership (I won't say the Palestinians) don't want peace-kill or be killed is the only way they are willing to exist-as long as they themselves don't get killed, they have uneducated subjects for that.
Now Netanyahu is killing it by expanding the settlements.
The pallies had their chance.
The pallies had their chance.
I agree. The two state solution is dead. Make it one state and they can all live together.
It's going to take something more creative than that.
It's going to take something more creative than that.
It's a simple process of elimination. You have to wear a tie to work. You have two ties: one is blue, the other is red. The dog ate the red tie. There's nothing left to think about. You'll be wearing the blue one.
It's going to take something more creative than that.
Actually no.
Everyone seems to be ignoring another possibility-- that the situation will continue as it has-- with no resolution. And that's what will happen, at least in the near future-- no rsolution. itsbeen like this for decades-- why do people suddenly think 2017 is some sort of magic number-- and it will be resolved this year because it won't be.
For a solution to happen, all three sides will have to ompromise a bit-- realize they cant have all of their demands met. But currently, none of the three is willing to give up any demands. So it will be a stalemate.
Make it one state and they can all live together.
Didn't exactly work out too well in Iraq, eh?
Make it one state and they can all live together.
Didn't exactly work out too well in Iraq, eh?
Then that leaves the two state solution doesn't it?
One state, with Palestinians as full voting Israeli citizens, or a two state solution. It really is up to Bibi and he has made his intentions known by building more and more and more settlements on the West Bank. His obvious goal is to annex the West bank and make it a permanent part of Israel. The means the Palestinians get all of the rights as all other Israelis or (if they don't and are treated as 2nd class citizens) Israel will become the new version of the old South Africa, with Apartheid. And America should never, ever do any business with ANY nation that practices Apartheid.
One state, with Palestinians as full voting Israeli citizens, or a two state solution
You're leaving out a third possibility-- the status quo. Being maintained for the near future.
Because saying there will be a one state solution or a two state solution now is saying there will be some sort of --solution. But people have been saying that for decades. I've been participating in1 vs 2 state solution arguments online for years. At this point its irrelevant. Its like debting the frm a reconciliation will take, between China and taiwan. Or a resolution of the age old conflict between the Sunnis and the Shia.
Do you know how many people are dying in Syria ...daily? Why are you so obsessed with a problem like this one-- and nary a word about Syria. That is a real crisis-- but nary a word...hmmmmm....
Things look like they will never change until they do.
Wasn't a two state solution offered many years ago? And didn't Arafat step on that? The Leadership (I won't say the Palestinians) don't want peace-kill or be killed is the only way they are willing to exist-as long as they themselves don't get killed, they have uneducated subjects for that.
Now Netanyahu is killing it by expanding the settlements.
Another red herring. From 1948 - 1967 the Arabs absolutely refused to make peace with Israel. And yet-- there were no settlements-- not one! (And no Israeli occupation, either 'till '67). So the settlements are just an excuse not to make peace....
Now Netanyahu is killing it by expanding the settlements.
Another red herring. From 1948 - 1967 the Arabs absolutely refused to make peace with Israel. And yet-- there were no settlements-- not one! (And no Israeli occupation, either 'till '67). So the settlements are just an excuse not to make peace....
You cannot make a viable Palestinian state chopped up by walls, settlements, and connecting Israeli controlled roads. Israeli participation in the peace process is a sham. The whole thing is just a land grab.
You cannot make a viable Palestinian state chopped up by walls, settlements, and connecting Israeli controlled roads. Israeli participation in the peace process is a sham. The whole thing is just a land grab.
The area that would become part of any future palestinian state would be most of hat is now the Occcupied West bank plus Palestinian controlled Gaza. TJhe last figues I saw: settlements cover only about 5% of the land in the West Bank! And I bet you can't guess what % of land in Gaza is covered by settlements!
The area that would become part of any future palestinian state would be most of hat is now the Occcupied West bank plus Palestinian controlled Gaza. TJhe last figues I saw: settlements cover only about 5% of the land in the West Bank! And I bet you can't guess what % of land in Gaza is covered by settlements!
Which is all completely irrelevant. If the settlements are expanded and connected by Israeli controlled roads, then the Palestinian state is chopped up. That is so even if there is no settlement in Gaza and even if the actual area that the settlements cover is relatively small.
If the settlements are expanded and connected by Israeli controlled roads, then the Palestinian state is chopped up.
If.
If, if, if!
There's an old saying:
If my grandmother had a wheel and two handles...she's be a wheelbarrow!
(If....)
If the settlements are expanded and connected by Israeli controlled roads, then the Palestinian state is chopped up.
If.
If, if, if!
There's an old saying:
If my grandmother had a wheel and two handles...she's be a wheelbarrow!
(If....)
That's probably what Marie Antoinette said a couple of years before they chopped her head off.
"So the settlements are just an excuse not to make peace...."
I believe you mean that BLAMING the settlements is just an excuse not to make peace. There was a point in time that the Palestinians would not come to the table because of settlement building and Israel put a moratorium of 11 months on any development in order to bring the Palestinians to the table. Not until the 11th hour did the Palestinians move their ass, and demanded an extension to the moratorium. I can't blame Israel for walking away at that point.
I believe you mean that BLAMING the settlements is just an excuse not to make peace.
Exactly.
There was a time when Israel actually did occupy Gaza. And what did they do there, those crafty Jews? They built settlements-- in Gaza! Oh-- the horror! "Everyone" knew that those settlements in Gaza were A PERMANENT OBSTACLE TO PEACE!
Snd then-- worse yet-- the evil Jews EXPANDED the settlements in Gaza! And worse yet-- they connected them with actual roads! And then there was even a network of roads in Gaza!
But then, in 2005, Israel totally , 100%, ended the occupation of Gaza. Yup. There's not a single, solitary Jew in the entire Gaza Strip.
But-- what happened to those settlements-- and the "expansions" after 2005? What about all the settlements in Gaza?
--> Can anyone guess what would happen if-- IF IF IF-- the jews ended the Gaza Occupation? Anyone know anything about all those Gaza settlements, AKA "A PERMANENT OBSTACLE TO PEACE"???? <---
[p.s. we don't have to guess what IF-- because the Jews actually did pull out of Gaza--- so INFORME PEOPLE know all about the Gaza settlements....]
If it became one state, and the Palies were to become citizens of Israel, rest assure that they would fuck up Israel until it resembled Gaza.
Or Syria...or any of the other 21 Arab states where the Arabs have independence. I wonder if people here realize what Arab areas become like when they gain independence. (Can you really blame Bibi for the horrendous conditions in all 21 independent Arab countries? Well, i suppose some folks here will try...lol
One just has to look at Jordan and Lebanon to see the results of what happened when the Palies were there.
One just has to look at Jordan and Lebanon to see the results of what happened when the Palies were there.
And another story that is less well known-- what happened to when the Palies were in the oil rich Gulf states...
Those small uber-wealthy oil rich countries hire foreign workers-- at horrible wages. Indians, Pakistanis...and used to hire Palestinians. They sent a lot of money back home to the West Bank and Gaza.
But then the Palestinian gov't under Arafart "backed the wrong horse" in the Gulf War-- they backed Saddam! The Gulf states were not amused (because in one of the 2 horrendous wars he started, Saddam invaded and attempted to annex one of their fellow Gulf states-- Kuwait).
All the Pali oil workers in the Gulf were expelled-- ending a source of revenue for the Palestinians--due, as always, to them insisting on "shooting themselves in the foot". The Persian Gulf states severed all relations with the Palis for years....
I had forgotten about that Krish. Just another ''shoot yourself in the foot'' moment for the Palies.
More news from the "largest open-air prison in the world":
Oh Jon.. you mean this one?
The Arab propaganda machine-- backed by seemingly limitless petrodollars, has been extremely sucessful in making it seem like all the problems in the Middleeast are caused by Israel. Often its blatant, but sometimes subtle.
In this case its subtle:
the first indoor shopping mall
Why do I say that? Because that statement is false! Yes-- this is not the first indoor shopping mall in Gaza.....
(Actually, I wonder if the distortion on the part of AP was intentional-- or they were just fooled by the pervasive anti-Israel hate that is now so prevalent...).
Do you mean this?
Looking at the information at Camera I don't see how it couldn't be intentional.
I'm also pro
;^\
also from Camera...
Meanwhile, CAMERA is in communication with The New York Times about its recent reference to the Capital Mall as the Gaza Strip's "first real mall." (The Times' Ethan Bronner, back in 2010 and 2011, covered the opening of the earlier malls.)
Right. I'm just sure the NYT just "slipped-up" on this tiny fact-check.
also from Camera...
Meanwhile, CAMERA is in communication with The New York Times about its recent reference to the Capital Mall as the Gaza Strip's "first real mall." (The Times' Ethan Bronner, back in 2010 and 2011, covered the opening of the earlier malls.)
Right. I'm just sure the NYT just "slipped-up" on this tiny fact-check.
The NYTimes has had an anti-Israel bias for as long as I can remember. (Although in all fairness they are not nearly as bad as the "Biased Broadcasting Corporation" (AKA the "BBC") or "Al Jazeera on the Thames" (AKA "Reuters").
It doesn't fit into their narrative, so it wasn't included.
Those who complain of "fake news" often have a point.
Do you mean this?
Yes:
What does a mall have to do with the fact that they don't have their own state?
Is a mall supposed to make up for that?
What does a mall have to do with the fact that they don't have their own state?
Nothing. Rather, it debunks the lie that Gaza is really a Concentration Camp.
In case you are unaware, here's what a concentration camp looks like:
Well, it says this is Gaza's first mall, so maybe it used to be a 'concentration camp'.
Glad to see that now all their problems are over.
Glad to see that now all their problems are over.
No one is saying all their problems are over!
If all it takes is a mall, then Jews didn't need to establish a Jewish state. They could have just gone shopping in the many malls in Europe of their country of origin. And nobody said that Gaza was a concentration camp. It's a bantustan run like an open air prison. Even if it's as nice as a gilded bird cage, it's still a cage.
It's a bantustan run like an open air prison.
Run by Hamas.
Gaza, together with the West Bank , comprise the Palestinian territories claimed by the Palestinians as the State of Palestine . The territories of Gaza and the West Bank are separated from each other by Israeli territory. Both fall under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority , [12] but Gaza has since June 2007 been governed by Hamas , a Palestinian Islamic organization [13] which came to power in free elections in 2006. It has been placed under an Israeli and U.S.-led international economic and political boycott from that time onwards. [14]
~WIKI~
True.
While Israel occupied Gaza for a while (previously it was occupied by Egypt), Israel pulled out totally in 2005, and the brutal Palestinian terrorist group Hamas took over. (Since the Israeli occupation ended, there not a single Jew in the entire place-- Its now totally governed by Hamas).
I don't care whether it's run by Hamas any more than I cared whether the KwaZulu bantustan was run by Zulus. Both were/are under the control of an outside power whether or not that power situates itself inside the bantustan. And that remains the case even if the bantustan is not a death camp and has a mall and a car dealership and a spa and a hair salon and a dog park and a Starbucks etc.
Both were/are under the control of an outside power
Nope.
Gaza is under control by Hamas.
And they rule with an iron fist.
(Those rockets they fire at Israeli towns? They only go when Hamas says so. There is a group in Gaza that's even crazier than Hamas-- Islamic Jihad. Occasionally they try to fire rockets at Israel. But when hamas doesn't want rockets to go off-- they chse down islamic Jihad members and torture them to death...).
neither country blockading Gaza-- neither Egypt not Israel-- has any control over hmas' actions or the actions of anyone else in Gaza.
P.S: I'm curious-- why the lack of concern re: Syria-- or don't you know what's going on there?
Both were/are under the control of an outside power
Nope. Gaza is under control by Hamas. And they rule with an iron fist.
Wrong. The day to day decisions affecting Gaza are made by Hamas (just like blacks did in a bantustan). This is simply ministerial control. However, Israel has ultimate control just like South Africa did and has used it's control to prevent Gaza from becoming independent without Israel's approval.
(Those rockets they fire at Israeli towns? They only go when Hamas says so. There is a group in Gaza that's even crazier than Hamas-- Islamic Jihad. Occasionally they try to fire rockets at Israel. But when hamas doesn't want rockets to go off-- they chse down islamic Jihad members and torture them to death...).
Israel still has ultimate comtrol.
neither country blockading Gaza-- neither Egypt not Israel-- has any control over hmas' actions or the actions of anyone else in Gaza.
Let me know the next time Israel insists that Egypt have equal say (or any say) in the negotiations.
P.S: I'm curious-- why the lack of concern re: Syria-- or don't you know what's going on there?
The subject is the Gaza Strip, which is controlled by Israel not Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Yemen or the gulf states.
Both were/are under the control of an outside power
Nope.
Gaza is under control by Hamas.
And they rule with an iron fist.
(Those rockets they fire at Israeli towns? They only go when Hamas says so. There is a group in Gaza that's even crazier than Hamas-- Islamic Jihad. Occasionally they try to fire rockets at Israel. But when hamas doesn't want rockets to go off-- they chse down islamic Jihad members and torture them to death...).
neither country blockading Gaza-- neither Egypt not Israel-- has any control over hmas' actions or the actions of anyone else in Gaza.
P.S: I'm curious-- why the lack of concern re: Syria-- or don't you know what's going on there?
Oh Jon.. you mean this one?
I hope it can avoid the bombardment of war.
I hope it can avoid the bombardment of war.
Well, the current Hamas leadership hopes the opposite. They want war-- in order to gain the world's sympathy. So they fire missiles at Israeli. (At civilian population centers-- they avoid IDF bases). They urge civilians to congregate on rooftops during war, in hopes of increasing casualties).
There are periods of peace-- then some Gaza crazies fire rockets. Israel is patient-- but eventually responds. If terrorists from Mexico were firing rockets at San Diego (with the excuse that they wanted a state)-- how long would the U.S. put up with it-- even under a president like Obama?)
If terrorists from Mexico were firing rockets at San Diego (with the excuse that they wanted a state)-- how long would the U.S. put up with it--
The US would immediately obliterate them.
True.
While Israel occupied Gaza for a while (previously it was occupied by Egypt), Israel pulled out totally in 2005, and the brutal Palestinian terrorist group Hamas took over. (Since the Israeli occupation ended, there not a single Jew in the entire place-- Its now totally governed by Hamas).
In this Saturday Feb. 18, 2017 photo, balloons decorate the entrances of the first indoor shopping mall in the Gaza Strip during it's opening, in Gaza City. In a welcome sign of normalcy, the first indoor shopping mall -- complete with an international retail chain, three-story bookstore and food court -- has opened in the Gaza Strip. The owners have overcome conflict and an Israeli-Egyptian blockade to build the gleaming 1,800 sq. meter (19,000 sq. feet) shopping center. (AP Photo/ Khalil Hamra)
I remember the opening of the previous mall, over 7 years ago:
(Actually I think there might have been two prior malls, not sure).