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2. Don't try to debate the specifics of the Bible. A discussion between a believer and a non-believer doesn't need to be a debate about science, or creationism, or an intricate dissection of the creation of the world as discussed in Genesis. Only discuss faith in terms of your personal experience of it. What does it mean to you, to be a Christian? That's got nothing to do with dinosaur bones and the age of the earth. Avoid these subjects.

1. Many Christians have very different relationships with the Bible, and you may be quite knowledgeable about Bible study and the history of the document. Conversely, many Christians emphasize a personal relationship with Christ as the fundamental aspect of their faith.

• An atheist may want to hear definitive evidence, not a discussion of your faith, but a discussion of Christianity isn't a debate between "science" and "faith." Treating this like a debate of facts will get you nowhere with a nonbeliever. All you can do is present your faith.

• 1. 
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  2. Try to understand the perspective of your friend. Has your friend always been a nonbeliever? Has something happened to cause this person pain in life, or feel that religious leaders are hypocritical? Or does your friend simply choose to base a belief system on scientific empirical evidence? Whatever the reason is, you need to get to the core of your friend's beliefs and try to understand them.
  3. • Do not assume to know the answer to this question. Not all atheists are "angry" at God, or are lapsed believers, or are depressed about their lack of faith. Listen when you ask questions and try to understand.
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  2. Let your friend try to convert you. Your friend may be curious about your beliefs, especially if they weren't raised as a Christian. And if this person feels comfortable with you, this will lead to questioning and challenging you. The less defensive you are, the more reasonable you seem. Be comfortable in your faith and remain calm. If you're having fun, the other person will, too.
  3. • If your friend constantly wants to discuss Biblical fallacies, or "Can God make a mountain God can't move?" types of questions, don't engage in debate. All you need to say is "That's not possible to know, and I'm comfortable with that. It doesn't make me any less of a believer."

Part 3 of 3: Keeping the Dialog Open

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   1
   Walk the walk. If you're going to talk a big game about how great your life as a Christian is, you've got to prove it with your actions. Demonstrate love with your own life. Some atheists are atheists because of their often-justified perception that Christians are hypocritical. But you know they're not all that way. Prove it.
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   2
   Invite your friend to come with you to church. The best way to introduce atheists to your religion is by treating it like you would any social function. Emphasize the fellowship and the camaraderie, and invite them to a non-service function, like a dinner or a cookout.

   • If you invite an atheist to a religious function, tell them that it is a religious function. Don't try to trick someone into attending by pretending that it is not. Do this every so often and introduce your friend to other people who attend your church. Make him or her comfortable with the individuals who make up the church and religion.
3. 
   3
   Be patient. See if this person develops any interest in attending your place of worship. You may extend an invitation to attend church with you, but it would be best if your friend comes along due to their own curiosity, feeling comfortable and in control. Don't push too hard. The more your friend has to come to you, the more invested they'll be in the result.
4. 
   4
   Be persistent. Show the practicality of Christianity through your own successes and friendships with Christians. If your friend truly sees that being a part of a church is like gaining dozens of new family members who demonstrate love and admiration toward others, then your friend will know where to turn in hard times..

   • Know when to call it quits. When talking about deeply-held beliefs, people can often get emotional or even angry. If possible, try to talk to them when they seem fairly open and when you are both in a good mood. Some atheists prefer written debates over oral ones. Try that if one or both of you always become overemotional. ^[2]
5. 
   5
   If you want to pray for your friend, do it in private. Ending a contentious conversation by saying "I will pray for you" can be seen as rude. Christians believe that it is up to God, ultimately, to convince people to follow. Don't use public prayer as a pious demonstration. If God is going to answer your prayer and convert the atheist, then he would do so whether the atheist hears it or not. wikihow

It's a very childish way to try to convert an atheist. If it works then the person was not a true artiest. In fact if this cornball stuff works they were already Christian. This looks like it was written as a guide for 9th graders.

Nothing happened to it. A reading of all of it including the unseeded parts shows a very positive way to be a gentle persuader.

Was it too loving, passive, and hope filled for you? The way described is our style when dealing with religion. This is not a political seed and there's no need for the sort of political combat that takes place there here. This is to be a friendly conversation.

Anyone heard of separation of Church and state. One can be a strongly committed democrat or republican and be a devout Christian. This is not the place to discuss Obama pro or con. This is a religion seed seeded to NT's religion and ethics section.

Ah, the personal attack on a religion seed. You don't know me from anyone and have no idea what kind of person I am. All you know about me is that I have a certain point of view on another subject.

1. I seeded an article about a political cartoon on a current event. 2. I have never said that any other Christian isn't a Christian at all. 3. I have never said Dems can't be Christian or saved. Never. Stop making stuff up. 4. I personally insult no one here who disagrees with me nor do I insult anyone here at all. 5. I never claimed to be perfect.You disagree with me.No grounds therefor personal attacks. 6. I don't judge others. I have a POVand freely express it. Live and let live. 7. Really? How do I act? Do you know me? No. You have no clue what I do in life. 8. Because all who disagree with you and freely express that couldn't have honestly come by their beliefs and values be they political, religious, or values in general. 9. Believing in and advocating/promoting a particular American political point of view is not hate, as much as you wish anyone simply daring to disagree with you makes us somehow hateful. It doesn't. 10. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Disagreeing with you is not the definition of zero moral standing. God will save all of us who accept Him and live our lives in a growing relationship with Him.

Was it too loving, passive, and hope filled for you?

It was too childish for me. I revise my estimation of the level it was written for down to 4th graders.

Hey, you forgot a few.
1) use a tragedy that killed 149 people to get in a political jab.
2) claim that you're a true Christian and anyone that doesn't believe like you isn't a Christian at all.
3) claim that dems can't be Christian.
4) hatefully insult the political opposition on a daily basis.
5) wear the cloak of self-righteousness while being a total fucking fraud.
6) judge others on an hourly basis.
7) claim to be a live and let live type of person while constantly acting otherwise.
8) be as hypocritical as you possibly can be.

9. Be totally blind to your own hateful actions, day in and day out.

10. Preach Jesus when you have zero moral standing to do so.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

"Suffer the little Children to come unto me..."

MM, while you may not be approachable by the ideas presented above, others may well be. There is a commission to preach the gospel to all the world. You of course as all are, are always free to say no and we simply move on. We all have free will to believe or not. Remember though that you responded to an article on religion and no one forced you to read it much less respond to it. The fact that it is here and you have to deliberately open it to read it means nothing is being forced upon you.

Religious plans to convert Atheists to Christianity articles are bound to draw my attention and derision. But if it makes you happy to think such a thing is possible with the childish garbage in this article, well then by all means carry on.

You have my blessing.

Why do you find it necessary XX, to proselytize your Christian religion? If it was so wonderful, I would think that all of the world would be Christian.

What you are saying in reality, is that if your not Christian, than you are less than I am.

Why is religion different?The usualNT options apply. Discuss or ignore.

Robert, you are right. But also Kavika, et al, have the right to state their displeasure. Same freedom applies.

No Mod has said anything either way, there is no issue. (Hence why this comment isn't in purple)

Really XXJ? This is how you determined to testify to the gospel of Christ? A Christian's testimony is only as good as the actions and words they display.....yet you wonder why many here ridicule the gospel you purport to represent. Credibility is your albatross.

I didn't see any reference to carbon dating, measuring the background radiation of the cosmos, nor even a rudimentary reference to mathematics. That must be in the advanced chapters on how to convert an atheist.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Congratulations, that statement just made you the biggest hypocrite on NT C4P. What arrogance you have. (Another major Christian failing BTW)

Hell, I feel like I've lost about 40-IQ points just reading the seeded article Randy.

Time to go pull out one of my physics books. That should make me feel better.

To hell with the Ark, they still can't figure out where Cain's wife came from....

You're not arguing facts. You're discussing faith That's got nothing to do with dinosaur bones and the age of the earth. Avoid these subjects.

In a nutshell...

It appears you are unable to view the cause and affect relationship between what you post and the written "conversation" on your part. Many have taken you to task regarding your personal views of the articles you post and your Christian values - they do not appear to reconcile. An article filled with vile and hateful remarks regarding our current President is just that, vile and hateful. Wrapping it in your Christian courtesy and civility towards others doesn't negate the posting. This is why I posted you have a credibility issue.

Certainly it's your choice how you'd like to be viewed here, my concern is the potential harm or being a stumbling block to those you wish to dialogue with in the "religion & ethics" portion of NT.

Courtesy and civility is your way of stating vile things, and managing to skirt the CoC. I have defended you, and will continue to do so, as a moderator. But your messages of hate are not consistent with what I believe to be Jesus' teachings-- and I'm a Christian, too.

Too, I believe that atheists are also within God's Love-- it is not up to me to question their reasoned beliefs. We should ALL respect each other's beliefs. God shows many different faces to many different peoples. I say, Leave Everyone Just Be.

My response to things like this is:

Time to go pull out one of my physics books. That should make me feel better.

I grab George Orwell. Usually Animal Farm. Lifts my IQ right back up to where it should be.

To hell with the Ark, they still can't figure out where Cain's wife came from....

I've never been any religious Christian to tell me the answer to that too. Adam and Eve must have had daughters and they "married" their brothers. I guess incest and incestious pregnancy was quite popular back then. It worked for Lot after his wife was turned to a pillar of salt.

Lot and his Daughters
32"Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him that we may preserve our family through our father." 33So they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 34On the following day, the firstborn said to the younger, "Behold, I lay last night with my father; let us make him drink wine tonight also; then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father."

"I was drunk and they took advantage of me! That's how I got both of my young daughters pregnant! I don't even remember doing it! Honest!" Just try to tell that one to a the judge today.

...promotion of an alternative view point is neither hateful nor vile. My courtesy and being polite and civil is just who I am.

Having addressed the issue of your courtesy and politeness in my former response, I must ask if your being obtuse or flat out ignoring the issues myself and Dowser have raised. Perhaps you don't care how your Christianity is perceived, it grieves me.

Posting an opinion article that bears false witness (part of the big 10) without a personalresponse is usuallydeemed asimplied agreement. So no matter how kindly you respond you end up bearing false witness along with the author.

The steps of this "how to" and the responses within the NT community would indicate the audience is not readily accepting or listening. It appears to haveincited hostility and anger.

And ridicule.

we rest our case...

Before "resting your case", please respond to my inquiry...

.....I must ask if your being obtuse or flat out ignoring the issues myself and Dowser have raised.

Dowser and I, both Christian woman, have asked you to reconcile the articles you post with the love of Christ. You see for us it's not a lefty, rightydivide we see but perhaps a fruit of the spirit issue which is whyI await your civil and courteous response.

Do us the courtesy of response.

If this article came from you Lynne, or possibly Dowser, I doubt that it would have generated the same level of hostility as both of you seem to live by all aspects of your teachings.

This entire thing reminds me when I was working down in the oil fields of Arkansas. People would cuss a black man's mother in her grave, but come Sunday morning in church, they all became Lilly white with all sins forgiven. C4P rolls the same way uncaring of the hypocrisy in thought word and deed.

Dear FLY, I don't live by it all the time, but I'm trying. I think that's all we can do-- try.

Ultimately it's no one eles damned business if or why I'm an atheist. So why should they bother and why should I listen to any of the garbage they're trying to sell me? They are the Fuller Brush Men of society. They come to my door and as soon as the first few words are out of their mouths I say "Not fucking interested" and gently close (OK, slam) the door in their face. And I have a huge heavy door (was specially made for this house). Makes a helluva wham you can hear all over the neighborhood! Go try to get someone else to buy your crappy products.

There is no god. Never has been. It's all a magic show for children. Grow up. You'll be much happier.

Oh and there ain't no Santa Claus either...sorry.

Thanks for kinds words FLY and although I don't speak for Dowser, I don't think either of us would have seeded such an article in NT.From the title on, it elicits avisceral response from many andalthough allowed, Iquestion it's purpose. It ends up being a self-righteous, prideful piece atbest....perhaps that was the intent.

I'm left with the idea you view Christian behavior that seeds the following type articles, without your denunciation, as appropriate and should no way diminish your testimony.

Obama's Not a Christian in Any Meaningful Way

• Posted by XXJefferson#51 on February 10, 2015 at 2:22am in Religion & Ethics

There are others, I chose this one because it was personallymost offensive and no response was ever posted from you.Are you not able to see the disconnect between the article above and this one as it relates to being a Christian?

No one is denying your right or ability to have those beliefs. Feel free. Just don't be surprised that even though you reject God, we keep going, moving to others who might listen and believe.

The article was about as low keyed and non confrontational way to approach the subject that there is

Not much dialoguing going on here. Did you post to see if Christians on NT would agree with the approach? I don'tnecessary see anyissues with the "steps", more often than not, it's the overzealous presenter of thegospel people reject.

I don't "reject" god. I can not reject something that does not exist. So, by all means, continue on.

This is just a personal aside, but I believe that C4P,or XX, or whatever their identity, is making a good faith effort to conform to the CoC, especially with the non aggressiveness of the comments.

I think you guys should start to discuss the issues on their merits and the argumentation provided, instead of any other metric.

This is, of course, just my opinion.

Carry on...

So, I think you and the others should try to show your side of the story objectively, and let the chips fall where they may. You present your evidence, they present their evidence and opinion.

Go from there.

Isn't that what the article was all about?

XXJ,

Still awaiting your response. Have the courtesy to not disrespect me.

Red Jacket Defends Native American Religion, 1805

by Red Jacket

The Senecas, members of the Iroquois Confederacy, fought on the side of the British in the American Revolution. Red Jacket, also known as Sagoyewatha, was a chief and orator born in eastern New York; he derived his English name from his habit of wearing many red coats provided to him by his British allies. After the hostilities, as the British ceded their territories to the Americans, the Senecas and many other Indian peoples faced enormous pressure on their homelands. Red Jacket was a critical mediator in relations between the new U.S. government and the Senecas; he led a delegation that met with George Washington in 1792, when he received a peace medal that appeared in subsequent portraits of the Indian leader. In 1805 a Boston missionary society requested Red Jackets permission to proselytize among the Iroquois settlements in northern New York State. Red Jackets forceful defense of native religion, below, caused the representative to refuse the Indians handshake and announce that no fellowship could exist between the religion of God and the works of the Devil.

Friend and brother; it was the will of the Great Spirit that we should meet together this day. He orders all things, and he has given us a fine day for our council. He has taken his garment from before the sun, and caused it to shine with brightness upon us; our eyes are opened, that we see clearly; our ears are unstopped, that we have been able to hear distinctly the words that you have spoken; for all these favors we thank the Great Spirit, and him only.

Brother, this council fire was kindled by you; it was at your request that we came together at this time; we have listened with attention to what you have said. You requested us to speak our minds freely; this gives us great joy, for we now consider that we stand upright before you, and can speak what we think; all have heard your voice, and all speak to you as one man; our minds are agreed.

Brother, you say you want an answer to your talk before you leave this place. It is right you should have one, as you are a great distance from home, and we do not wish to detain you; but we will first look back a little, and tell you what our fathers have told us, and what we have heard from the white people.

Brother, listen to what we say. There was a time when our forefathers owned this great island. Their seats extended from the rising to the setting sun. The Great Spirit had made it for the use of Indians. He had created the buffalo, the deer, and other animals for food. He made the bear and the beaver, and their skins served us for clothing. He had scattered them over the country, and taught us how to take them. He had caused the earth to produce corn for bread. All this he had done for his red children because he loved them. If we had any disputes about hunting grounds, they were generally settled without the shedding of much blood. But an evil day came upon us; your forefathers crossed the great waters, and landed on this island. Their numbers were small; they found friends, and not enemies; they told us they had fled from their own country for fear of wicked men, and come here to enjoy their religion. They asked for a small seat; we took pity on them, granted their request, and they sat down amongst us; we gave them corn and meat; they gave us poison in return. The white people had now found our country; tidings were carried back, and more came amongst us; yet we did not fear them, we took them to be friends; they called us brothers; we believed them, and gave them a larger seat. At length, their numbers had greatly increased; they wanted more land; they wanted our country. Our eyes were opened, and our minds became uneasy. Wars took place; Indians were hired to fight against Indians, and many of our people were destroyed. They also brought strong liquor among us; it was strong and powerful, and has slain thousands.

Brother, our seats were once large, and yours were very small; you have now become a great people, and we have scarcely a place left to spread our blankets; you have got our country, but are not satisfied; you want to force your religion upon us.

Brother, continue to listen. You say you are sent to instruct us how to worship the Great Spirit agreeably to his mind, and if we do not take hold of the religion which you white people teach, we shall be unhappy hereafter. You say that you are right, and we are lost; how do we know this to be true? We understand that your religion is written in a book; if it was intended for us as well as you, why has not the Great Spirit given it to us, and not only to us, but why did he not give to our forefathers the knowledge of that book, with the means of understanding it rightly? We only know what you tell us about it. How shall we know when to believe, being so often deceived by the white people?

Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit; if there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book?

Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told that your religion was given to your forefathers, and has been handed down from father to son. We also have a religion which was given to our forefathers, and has been handed down to us their children. We worship that way. It teacheth us to be thankful for all the favors we receive; to love each other, and to be united. We never quarrel about religion.

Brother, the Great Spirit has made us all; but he has made a great difference between his white and red children; he has given us a different complexion, and different customs; to you he has given the arts; to these he has not opened our eyes; we know these things to be true. Since he has made so great a difference between us in other things, why may we not conclude that he has given us a different religion according to our understanding. The Great Spirit does right; he knows what is best for his children; we are satisfied.

Brother, we do not wish to destroy your religion, or take it from you; we only want to enjoy our own.

Brother, you say you have not come to get our land or our money, but to enlighten our minds. I will now tell you that I have been at your meetings, and saw you collecting money from the meeting. I cannot tell what this money was intended for, but suppose it was for your minister; and if we should conform to your way of thinking, perhaps you may want some from us.

Brother, we are told that you have been preaching to the white people in this place. These people are our neighbors; we are acquainted with them; we will wait, a little while and see what effect your preaching has upon them. If we find it does them good, makes them honest and less disposed to cheat Indians, we will then consider again what you have said.

Brother, you have now heard our answer to your talk, and this is all we have to say at present. As we are going to part, we will come and take you by the hand, and hope the Great Spirit will protect you on your journey, and return you safe to your friends.

Source: Daniel Drake, Lives of Celebrated American Indians, Boston, Bradbury, Soden & Co. 1843), 28387.

''Red Jackets forceful defense of native religion, below, caused the representative to refuse the Indians handshake and announce that no fellowship could exist between the religion of God and the works of the Devil.''

This section states how Christians felt about other religions.

It would be wise to read the these words XX. You, or some Christians do not need to preach toothers what they should believe, or not believe.It seems that you, and some Christians are incapable of understanding or acceptingothers beliefs or non beliefs.

You, or some Christians do not need to preach toothers what they should believe.It seems that you, and some Christians are incapable of understanding or acceptingothers beliefs.

How utterly true!

How to Persuade an Atheist to Become Christian Talk To Someone With Different Views, Politely

Most of those points could be used to lessen the friction and start a productive conversation about any issue where the views are starkly different.

When I was living in Missouri, I had a friend, John, with whom I had many in depth and intellectually fulfilling conversations about economics, politics and religion. I am an atheist, liberal libertarian. John is a conservative, Southern Baptist minister. Not a common pairing that one would think was capable of producing a fulfilling conversation. So how was this possible?

One reason we could have these discussions, I think, was the fact that we found several points of common ground. Among these, he was from the east coast as was I, so we were both displaced from the areas where we grew up and shared a certain cultural dissonance. This dissonance was not bad, it was more of an understanding of the world from a certain perspective, and a noting of the differences that were attributable to society and culture.

Another was the ability to conduct the conversations in such a way as to give the credit to the speaker of having a reason for feeling the way that they did, and the recognition that there is more than one possible way to look at the same set of facts, and therefore, more than one possible conclusion.

Of course we had differences, but that was to be expected. What was not expected was the agreement on some issues and the cordiality that was extended to and by both he and I.

I'll second that!

Red Jacket's words bring me to quiet tears as the truth screams in my mind. Lives, families destroyed in the name of belief and non-belief, pitting man against man when what we seek is the respect "to be" and become the best of ourselves.

Kavika, thank you for posting this poignant writing.

Dowser, MM, Lynne, it's one of the most eloquent and powerful speech's that I have had the honor of reading. I keep a framed copy of it.

I understand why you do. It is a beautifully written truth!

Ah yes, the Real Clear Politics article that I seeded here two months ago that originated in Red State.

Barack Obama is not, in any meaningful way, a Christian and I am not sure he needs to continue the charade. With no more elections for him, he might as well come out as the atheist/agnostic that he is. ¹ He took his first step in doing so yesterday in a speech reeking with contempt for faith in general and Christianity in particular.

Saying that violent acts are not representative of Islam, the President then attacked Christians for the Crusades (started as a response to Islamic invasion), the Inquisition (a Catholic thing, not us Protestants), slavery (abolished thanks to Christians), and Jim Crow (Dr. King also had a Reverend in front of his name).

Despite the interpretations and defenses of the President on what he meant, he gave away the game with a bit of the speech not given nearly as much play in the media. From the transcript:

I believe that the starting point of faith is some doubt not being so full of yourself and so confident that you are right and that God speaks only to us, and doesnt speak to others, that God only cares about us and doesnt care about others, that somehow we alone are in possession of the truth.

Christ said, I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (John 14:6) Christ himself is truth. When we possess Christ, we possess truth. The President is a moral relativist. It was clear in his whole speech. He cannot condemn and attack ISIS as he should because in his mind what is truth? Truth is a nebulous concept with our post-modern President. With truth a nebulous concept, right and wrong are too.

We know God cares about everyone. We know Christ came to die for sinners. But Christians know Christ is truth itself. To have truth, we must have Christ. To suggest that everyone can have some version of God and some version of truth is worldly babbling, not Christianity.

The President followed up those words with these:

And so, as people of faith, we are summoned to push back against those who try to distort our religion any religion for their own nihilistic ends.

I agree.

So I wish the President would stop professing himself to be a Christian if he is not going to proclaim Christ as truth and the only way to salvation. The all paths nonsense and moral equivalence might fit in with the present age, but the present age does not really fit with Christ.

And as for doubts on whether Im right, the starting point of faith is some doubt in my ability to save myself, not in whether Im right. I know Im a sinner. I know I cannot save myself. I have no doubt that Christ is the only way. Its not that Im right, but that Christ is right. So, Mr. President, get off your own high horse.

---

^{1. No, despite what some think, Barack Obama is not a closet Muslim. Islam teaches that there is no god but God, Mohammed is the messenger of God. Obamas name is neither Allah nor Mohammed. Therefore, there is no room for him to presume himself a god. So, Obama with faith only in himself, must be an atheist/agnostic.}

realclearpolitics

Are you denying that the author of those words is a Christian? Or that I am one for both agreeing with him and seeding it here? Is John 14:6 wrong or not to be taken literally? Remember these words were written after Obama bashed Christians at the National Prayer Breakfast.