Parents demand change after trans girls win high school track meet
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
A Connecticut high school sophomore dominated in last week's track and field competition - but the transgender teen's big win has some people outraged and wondering if it's fair she was allowed to compete.
Terry Miller, who was born a male but identifies as a female, came in first place twice during the June 4 CIAC State Open track and field competition. During the 100-meter dash, Miller smoked her competition finishing the race in just 11.72 seconds. She also killed it in the 200-meter dash finishing in 24.17 seconds.
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Imagine your daughter trying her hardest to be the best at an event only to be beaten by two guys who recently decided they were females. How many women's scholarships will be lost when more guys decide to use this loophole?
Move decided to embrace the craziness. I hope this happens more and more until natural born women finally decide enough is enough. I guess there really isn't a wage gap issue... as it doesn't address how many "men" identify as women.
Science be damned... feelings matter more!
E.A So this is so Abundant so more widespread!
LOL is that what this is about, so you think that the Chromosomes and DNA and RNA play no part in how, what, how one reacts?
See Article Posted about Y Chromosomes, some Knowledge I am sure will help with the prejudice.
E.A To expound, in how many sports are Drugs used, and a few time they are detected, right.
But what about the so called Medicinal Drugs, or Progesterone for " medical reasons " or testosterone and so on, where will the line be drawn?
How long as she been on HRT, as if conservatives know what this means?
A person cannot just decide that they are a different gender on a week to week or a month to month basis, despite what someone has told you.
That is correct it is impossible to change gender even with treatment and surgeries the DNA remains the same.
A person doesn't experience life as their DNA. They experience life and are seen by others as their biological gender,which the hormones and the surgery change as much as medically possible. Trans people would love to be able to change their DNA to align with their gender identity but so far that is not possible.
It seems that the vast majority of the people in this thread do not understand the difference between a person's biological gender and their psychological gender identity. That idea is the basis of what being transgendered is.
Well if you read a story about one 19 year old male, then it must be true and true of all transgenders!
interesting ... so you think Gender Identity is a mental disorder ?
According to statements made by Britain's chancellors office, France and Denmark....apparently, not anymore.
Other than that there is a draft of the ICD-11 done in '16, where GID, now GD, is possibly being changed again..... to "gender incongruence".
Kinda like how they changed the words "Climate Change" to "Global Warming". Makes it more "Comforting".
These "Guys" (wondering how they did in "boys" track and field)…..must be proud they can beat the "Girls" !
Deleted, CoC {SP}
ah ok, thanks for the answer
so you think they changed it just to make it more "comforting" ? what would be their motivation for such a thing ? (is this another conspiracy theory ?)
there are guys who can beat girls and girls who can beat guys in athletics, whether they are cisgender or transgender - i'm not sure of the point of your statement.
I don't think he is either.
Thanks to intolerant deplorables such as . . . . . .
The NEED.....to be PC ?
"there are guys who can beat girls and girls who can beat guys in athletics"
Sure, but they don't claim to be something else when they do it.....do they.
kinda like when old guy Riggs lost to younger King.
huh ? is this another conspiracy theory that only makes sense to you ? why would they need to be PC ? is PC a big thing for Britain, Denmark and France ?
this comment makes no sense, please explain.
ok.... a woman beat a man in athletics... didn't i state that happens already ?
Huh ?
Do explain.
"this comment makes no sense"
I know.
Don't hold your breath waiting for that! You'll just get a lot of sidestepping and gobbledygook and nonsensical bullshit.
your reason:
makes no sense, so i asked:
and you dodged it, no surprise, then you are trying to turn this around on me when it was your reason that you stated to begin with ?
it seems a bit odd to laugh at your own comment making no sense, but i guess that makes you happy to laugh at yourself
your reason :
makes no sense, so i asked :
and you dodged it, no surprise , then you are trying to turn this around on me when it was your reason that you stated to begin with ?'
Waiting for what ?
"You'll get just get..."
so far that's all i'm getting, some weird crazy conspiracy theory about the need to be PC in other countries along with a woman beating a man at athletics.
Huh ?
Explanation fail.
What are you going for in your comments ?
That's all you'll ever get!
What's the "CONCPIRACY" ?
i explained everything in my comment, your inability to comprehend simple words and their structure isn't my issue.
you claimed the motivation for possibly changing GD to "gender incongruence" is due to PC so i asked:
if you can't figure out what the questions are then it's not my issue. If you don't know the answer - then maybe you should just admit you don't know the answer and your explanation is another conspiracy theory with no basis in reality currently.
1. it's conspiracy
2. that's what i'm asking you, because unless you have some proof that it's due to PC - then all you have is some conspiracy theory not grounded in reality until you can prove otherwise.
Nope !
You explained NOTHING.
Sounds like you're a proponent of " I FEEL like a women Guys" beating "Girls", who ARE ACTUAL GIRLS, and proud of it !
i sure did - i explained why i asked the questions of you which you are still dodging which means the only conclusion anyone can come to is that you have another conspiracy theory that makes no sense to anyone outside of your mind in regards to GD possibly being changed to "gender incongruence" . As for me being a proponent of anything ? i've never stated if i was or not a proponent , did i ? try reading the actual words printed on your screen instead of inserting your own. thanks
Nope !
keep stamping your feet
that's fantastic but not what i asked . I asked:
not if there is a Gender Identity disorder
Your a "Guy" DESERVES to defeat a "Girl" type person. Got It !
is there ?
i've not made such a statement , please try again . This time, read the words actually printed on your screen for a change , your attempts at pigeon holing me into a position are pathetic at best
Google it and find out
What do you think the treatment should be?
Deny, Deny, Deny. So Cool !
i haven't denied nor confirmed anything, please try again . This time, read the words actually printed on your screen for a change, your attempts at pigeon holing me into a position are pathetic at best
Which words pertaining to the article ?
Just paste them....it's that SIMPLE !
sounds like quite a conundrum you have, perhaps checking previous posts to see what i'm referring to may help you a bit ?
just scroll up and find them .... it's that SIMPLE !
Find what ?
may this upset you ?
Last year, Yearwood came in first in both the 100 and 200-meter dashes at the Class M state track and field championship. S he competed in the races last year before undergoing hormone treatments.
sounds like quite a conundrum you have, perhaps checking previous posts to see what i'm referring to may help you a bit ?
YOU made the claims, YOU supply....right ?
except i haven't made any claims
Huh ?
i would suggest more research on Gender Identity, but that's your choice as to whether to be educated or not
Up until the day before yesterday (roughly), the psychological community absolutely felt that way.
When the DSM V came out, they decided to call it something different - not because the science had changed, but just to preserve the feelings of those suffering from it. In 2013, the American Psychiatric Association (publishers of the DSM) released this statement. Note the total lack of science:
Similarly, although the World Health Organization's (WHO) International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Health Related Problems (ICD) has long included Transgenderism and related Gender Identity Disorders, they are also planning on changing their terminology with the ICD-11 not because of science, but to reduce stigma.
So, rather than demand that people treat other people with respect and dignity, our highly educated psychiatric professionals are throwing Common Sense in the garbage. They are turning their backs to reality in favor of popular social and political philosophy.
Yep. that's what they say, anyway.
To reduce stigma. The medical and psychological understanding of sex has not changed.
Fortunately for these kids their doctors don't take advice from people who know nothing about the topic, otherwise far more transgender kids would kill themselves.
Of course he does.
What exactly are you trying to say?
It does not matter what they identify as, it matters what they were born as since their DNA will be the same till and even after they die.
You are possibly the 30th person who I have explained this basic concept to. Johnny Gilbert will tell you what prize you have won!
A person's DNA does not determine their gender identity, which is the male or femaleness of their personality. Trans people have the biological body of one gender and the gender identity or gender personality of the other gender. Since the gender identity of a person is fixed at birth and cannot be changed, medical science changes the biological body's appearance and function, as much as medically possible to align with their gender identity.
The patient undergoes 90 days to 6 months of psychological counseling and testing before hormones start and is monitored for life by a team of endocrinologists, psychologists and psychiatrists for years and often for life by the endocrinologist who is prescribing the meds. The process is longer and more rigorous for teens and pre-teens because of their age and lack of maturity. Pre-teens are not given sex hormones but instead are given hormone blockers.
I'm interested in learning how you and other conservatives would address this transgendered situation if you disagree with the current med/psych approach?
I am not talking identity or confusion I am talking the actual physical factual gender.
What ever you identify yourself as it does not change reality.
This makes no sense. How many times do you require people to undress so you determine if they are male or female when you first meet them? How many people have you required a chromosomal or DNA test when you met so you can use the proper pronouns?
Why do you care if a person is transgendered?
OH, not I see my mistake....I am addressing the fact that these parents don't think it is fair for their naturally born female children to have to compete against naturally born males in sports, while you are off on a personal tangent.
If those transgendered females have been on typical estrogen therapy and androgen blockers for 1-2 years these should be little difference because of the weight gain and the muscle atrophy. Trans females who aren't on HRT should not be competing with CIS females.
Read the story, then put your 1-2 years out to anywhere from 5-10 years depending on the individual.
There's very little morphological difference between males and females before puberty. We don't know the medical history of the two kids which the conservatives are whining about, so we don't know if they received puberty blockers or HRT in a timely manner.
Unless they have reassignment surgery in that time period, there will be no changes if the hormone and blocker doses are correct.
Is this just a transgender bashing thread? For shame!
The shame should be applied to those young males who only identify as females, and have had no hormone therapy, and are allowed to compete as girls while remaining males.
It isn't a "bleep'ing opinion". It is a medical fact that you willfully ignore because you are obviously an emotional thinker instead iof a logical thinker. There is something about LGBT people that bothers you.
A person's biological gender does not determine if they are male or female. Their psychological gender identity determines if they are male or female. A trans person is someone who was born with the psychological gender identity of one gender and the biological body of the other gender. Since the psychological gender of th person is innate before birth and cannot be changed, so medical science changes the body as much as possible to aligin with their psychological gender identity. How many times do you need to be told that our DNA or external sex organs do not determine anyone's gender identity? John Money held the same ideas that you did and his treatment killed a person because he thought that he could change their gender identity to match their body.
I have tried to expian this very basic idea to conservatives but there is a mental block that prohibits you and others from understanding this very basic concept. You can rant and swear like a sailor but it will not change the facts.
Gender identity is not a mental illness by itself. Trans people are screened for underlying mental illness at the start of the process. The most common problem is anxiety which is almost expected, but that by itself is not disqualifying to hormones and then transition. +/- 20% of the population has an anxiety disorder.
You would do well to educate yourself about the subject from a reliable medical source.
The proper term for that female hormone is estrogen. A steer is a bull that has been neutered by removed the testes, so it is halfway there.
You are missing the crucial concept of gender identity in cows. I've never seen a psychologist on a ranch, but it might be possible.
Why are you so bothered by gender identity of a person that you don't know? Is it the fear of the unknown? Do trans' people scare you or do you just need someone different to hate?
Trans people usually perform worse than their CIS gendered counterparts once they have been on HRT for over a 2 year because of the weight increases.
You have a distinct problem with trans people and it is obvious because of the many threads that you have seeded, both here and on Newsvine.
They are not permitted to take part in athletic events in their identified gender until after they have been on HRT, usually for a year or more. If she isn't on hormones then that would be a distinct problem.
It's not a surprise that conservatives lack both knowledge and compassion on issues like this. They simply don't care about trans kids, only cis kids who are straight, white and evangelical Christian.
Transgendered people are not mentally ill. They are different than you and I but they are rational people with a brain gender that is wrong for theior physcial body, despite the fact that you cannot understand that possibility. Being transgendered in not a new idea because it was known about more than 2000 years ago.
What medical degree did you earn? I suggest that you learn about human sexuality.
You don’t need to have a medical degree to know that anyone believing they are so-called “transgender” with has mental stability issues or is demon possessed.
I'd like to see any supporting evidence of this supposed transgendered mental instability.
Can you prove that demons exist?
You don’t need to have a medical degree to know that anyone believing they are so-called “transgender” with has mental stability issues or is demon possessed.
Well, that’s just an obnoxious statement. Yes, there is an issue in their mental processing, but no, it has nothing to do with mental stability or demons. Some people are agoraphobic, some people are afraid of heights, some people are afraid of clowns. Why does the right get the willies so bad when mental issues have anything to do with sexuality?
I’ve battled against and delivered people who were demonic possessed here and around the world. It is the mark of a fool to belittle that which you obviously know nothing about.
ive witnessed during a deliverance human bodies distort into contortions and expansions, along with super human strength that are not physically possible
ive seen the reaction of a demon possessed person when I touch them with anointing oil scream that the oil was like fire upon them
the distinctly U.N. human voices (and sometimes a range of such voices) that come out of them
in South Africa we encountered a young girl who was brought forward by her mother because they had to keep her restrained because she otherwise tried to kill herself and every living theming in her sight. It too 6 hours with ourteam asshe tossed people larger than herself around like they were nothing. I have a photo of her the next day as a pleasant teenager now playing soccer with other kids
I don’t expect atheists to believe in the reality of the spiritual realm. Otherwise you would receive Christ
“For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm.”
Ephesians 6:12-13
Because denying who you are is a sign of mental instability
The demons are calling me to the bar, Larry, can you help me?
Exactly. The problem is, for them to satisfy you they would have do deny who they are, as they know know themselves to be. You don’t get to decide who someone else is, that is their job.
I’ve battled against and delivered people who were demonic possessed here and around the world. It is the mark of a fool to belittle that which you obviously know nothing about.
Any rational thinking person would recognize who the fool is in that statement.
Yes, the person who denies the spiritual realm simply out of ignorance
What common sense am I and the APA ignoring?
Demons do not exist. The people who you claim are possessed have serious mental illnesses. Excorcism has never cured anyone, but it has killed people.
There is medical proof that male and female brains are physically different. Trans people have a male brain but a female body or a female brain and a male body.
Why do you have a problem understanding transgendered people?
I am assuming that you cannot accept this because it would require you to rethink who you are and your opinions of human sexuality. You don't want to accept that these people didn't choose to be trans' and that makes it easier to hate and discriminate against them. Your religious beliefs confirm your currently held bias.
If the person is male to female transgendered then proper pronoun is female. You refer to her as she.
Deleted, Skirting {SP}
No relevant medical organization supports your transphobic views.
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( Deleted, Coc {SP} ) since transvestism and being transgender are two different things.
It can be proven that they have a gendered brain that is incongruent for their body's physical gender. That is not a delusion. Trans people are screened for delusions and other mental illness with the MMPI test.
BTW, Disillusioned means that they are disappointed or were led to believe that something is less than what is what portrayed to be. You used the wrong word.
Transvestites and transgendered people are not the same. That person may be androgynous and pan-gendered, so do as they ask and move on without judging them.
If someone is dressed as a female, such as a drag queen, then use the proper pronoun for that manner of dress. You are making this situation personal to you and that could be why you are having such a hard time understanding because you see this situation as personally insulting.
It's far more likely that those who believe in "demons" have rather severe mental health issues.
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LOL. Please be sure to submit your peer-reviewed research about the "demon theory of disease" to the AMA. You could win the Nobel prize for medicine the same year that your Fuhrer wins the Nobel peace prize.
'Imagine your daughter trying her hardest to be the best at an event only to be beaten by two guys who recently decided they were females. How many women's scholarships will be lost when more guys decide to use this loophole?
Move decided to embrace the craziness. I hope this happens more and more until natural born women finally decide enough is enough. I guess there really isn't a wage gap issue... as it doesn't address how many "men" identify as women.
This is not an issue of people changing their gender on a whim or trying to use some kind of loophole to get a scholarship or wage increase.
Is this the end of girls sports?
E.A Is this where Navratilova Challenged whatwas his name and?? ( Connor)?
IOC rules transgender athletes can take part in Olympics without surgery
Female-to-male athletes can compete ‘without restriction’, while male-to-female athletes must undergo hormone therapy, according to new guidelines
The IOC has relaxed rules governing pre-surgery transgender athletes taking part in the Olympics in time for the Rio Games later this year. Photograph: Mario Tama/Getty Images
Associated Press
Mon 25 Jan 2016 12.04 AEDT
...
The guidelines are designed as recommendations – not rules or regulations – for international sports federations and other bodies to follow and should apply for this year’s Olympics in Rio de Janeiro.
“I don’t think many federations have rules on defining eligibility of transgender individuals,” IOC medical director Dr Richard Budgett said. “This should give them the confidence and stimulus to put these rules in place.”
Under the previous IOC guidelines, approved in 2003, athletes who transitioned from male to female or vice versa were required to have reassignment surgery followed by at least two years of hormone therapy in order to be eligible to compete.
It's not enough. Males develop stronger beating hearts, more efficient lungs, stronger muscles, ligaments, tendons, and bones. Heck, they probably have longer limbs than they would if they had developed as female. You don't just erase all of that with a few months or even a few years of hormone therapy. Anyone who made it into puberty as a male should have to compete as a male or it's unfair.
E.A Exactly one can not " Undo " all the Bone and Muscles that have developed!
I believe in trans-gender rights but I have to agree with Tacos here. Biological males are simply bigger and stronger than biological females. I realize that it's not fair to the trans athletes but allowing them to compete with bio females is not fair to the bio females.
Honestly, I think it sucks. I wish I had a simple answer for trans people that would be satisfying, but I don't think there is one. We still don't fully understand what is going on with everyone with trans issues, much less what to do about it. That doesn't mean we should just throw hormones at the problem or dress up differently and pretend everything is normal. Sometimes nature just makes it impossible for people to do certain things. Maybe they can shine some other way.
That's only the case for trans kids who don't receive puberty blockers and HRT at an appropriate time. And according to medical specialists as well as the NCAA and the Olympic committee, there is no strength or speed advantage after a person has been on HRT for at least a year.
What that comment shows is that you really don't give a crap about the welfare of these kids, and you don't care that without treatment they have a very high suicide rate.
Ad absurdum.
Saying biological males should not be competing with bio girls is not saying you don't care what happens to them.
If that was the case does that mean you don't care if a bio female committed suicide because she lost to a bio male who only recently decided they were female?
do you believe there are physical differences between men and women that make men more physically competitive?
The proof seems to show otherwise. Repeatedly F2M trans are heavily dominating women's events. Wrestling, Track, and even a near 40 mma fighter who was breaking women's jaws starting out when most fighters are several years into retirement. These are piss poor male athletes who transition into women's sports and are now the top percent.
I would actually agree that hormone blocked before puberty would not give any advantage... after puberty there is no denying the clear muscle advantage. What's going to happen when someone like Brock Lesnar decides he wants to wrestle women's...what kind of damage could he do? If m2f transitioning didn't have any advantage in sports and it was all their skill "as a woman"... then we would be able to see a clear mirror on the f2m transitioning athletes. How many f2m athletes have you saw winning men's sports?
Im all for calling someone whatever pronoun they want. It's gone past that into territory that everyone must agree 100% with them. People claiming you are transphobe if you wouldn't date a trans or you think they shouldn't be competing in competitive sports against women. The simple truth is they will never be the bio sex thy want to be.
No to the former, quite obviously yes to the latter.
Sure it is. Just the fact that you use the phrase "biological males" shows that you really don't give a crap about the welfare of these kids and aren't working to reduce ignorance and bias against them. You're part of the problem not the solution.
There very much is a growing group of people who say you are a bigot if you wouldn't date a trans person
Give it time to reach a national agenda on the DNC platform and I'm sure you will say the same
it very much isn't bigoted to think a m2f shouldn't compete with bio women. that claim is just a way to ignore scientific facts and place feelings over science
Why is saying biological males wrong? They are biological males. Feels don't trump biology. Everything doesn't have to be an all or nothing end game. You an Carr about the well being of someone but still look objectively at facts. You don't have to agree 100% with people. That is an extremist attitude.
i care about my relatives... doesn't mean I have to buy into their religious fantasy the earth is 6k years old just because it hurts their feelings when I call BS on it
First because you haven't stated what you think a "biological male" refers to. Are you referring to cellular genetics, reproductive physiology, secondary sexual trait morphology, or neural traits driven by sex differentiation of the brain.....like sexual orientation and gender identity? All of those things can vary from one individual to the next yet they're all biological traits. Heck, you obviously aren't even aware that there are at least 6 viable genetic sex karyotypes in humans yet the vast majority of people never get their genetic sex karyotype tested. It's not even clear on which of these traits you want to classify children as "biological male" or "biological female".
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I have no clue what any of that means.
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You can deal with your superstitious and gullible relatives however you like, but in the end our public schools won't be allowed to discriminate against transgender kids or deny them access to athletic programs.....Title IX alone will prohibit that. I suggest you learn to deal with it.
Cool.....feel free to whine to them directly when they accuse you of that.
He doesn’t have to state what is common knowledge in every society on earth since the dawn of humanity. There are only two genders and even animals can tell the difference between them.
That comment is straight from the Bronze age and reveals a profound ignorance not just of biology but of human fetal development.
The good thing is that most sports organizations today are more enlightened than you are.
I don't need to define what biologically male means. That is absurd. It's been clearly defined for a long while now. You can say your gender is fluid. Whatever.. Your biological sex is set however. Biological sex isn't gender. That's been established for the most part. Even the variances of f XX and XY you want to mention as 6 types.. you failed to mention those are genertic deformities. Xxy etc... those aren't standard pairings. They aren't common at all. I get you want to be recognized as the biological sex you identify as. It must be rough going through life feeling you don't identify as your bio sex. Life isn't always fair though. And changing your hair style, saying you identify as whatever, and realllly wishing to the blue fairy doesn't make something scientifically true.
Bio sex is fixed and based on varying factors. Gender is somewhat more flexible. It is a murky period with this for sure. People want to be accommodating and they are trying to. Eventually that will give way to common sense when the majority of state championships are won by more trans women and people finally say it's time to acknowledge the differences between biological sexes.
Who said anything about whining . I was just showing you that there is a movement to call people bigoted for not dating trans. You said that wasn't the case. I just provided one example. Would you date a trans person? If not then you would be a bigot by your thinking.
The Bronze Age has you beat because they could tell the difference between men and women without a course in fetal development. But I’ll help you out. Female fetuses grow up to be women and male fetuses grow up to be men.
Theyre not enlightened at all. They simply succumbed to a stupid political narrative.
You do know that intersex is a thing, right?
That is true about 98% of the time, except for those instances of people being intersexxed or people being transgendered. Our DNA does not always determine our gender identity congruently with our body's gender. Once you understand that fact everything else falls into place.
Do you also have a problem with the idea that 90%+ of people are heterosexual there are many people who are attracted to people of the same outward gender or possibly both genders?
That is patently wrong because trans people have existed for longer than Christianity.
The native American term for trans people was two-spirit.
An intersex condition is verifiable. People who are not intersex but think they’re the wrong gender have a mental disorder.
So......you admit that genetic sex karyotype isn't the determinative factor and is more than binary anyway, but then you neglected to discuss all the changes caused by prenatal hormones or epigenetic changes post natally, things which generally drive physical morphology including internal and external reproductive traits. In fact you seem unaware that there are even cases where one twin of a zygotic pair is cisgender and the other transgender, so at best you seem oblivious not just to the science on this issue but also to the case histories which demonstrate that genetic sex karyotype doesn't control gender identity. In other words your simplistic notion of a male-female dichotomy is just that: simplistic and ignorant of the real complexity of human fetal development. What's worse is that when a child varies from an average set of traits you want that child to suffer or be harmed, apparently because they don't fit the square hole of your primitive Bronze-age mythology.
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It just means that you're part of the reason why so many transgender kids kill themselves.
You won't find any credible or relevant medical organization which supports that bigoted and ignorant comment.
Intersex and transgenderism are not synonyms. The former is a physical anomaly; the latter is a mental disorder. Once you understand that fact everything else falls into place.
Recognizing reality isn’t a problem but escaping it is. People can be attracted to the same sex, other people’s feet, children, their siblings, parents, animals, dead bodies, and inanimate objects. It’s all deviant behavior and I recognize it as such. If somebody said that he believes he’s Napoleon, then he really needs to get his head examined rather than expect me to call him your majesty.
There is no such thing as trans people. Transgenderism is a mental disorder.
It was a spiritual concept and had nothing to do with the current notion of someone claiming to be transgender.
That's an obviously false and ignorant statement presumably based solely on your superstitions since no relevant medical organization supports your claim.
You conflate intersex and transgenderism as it suits you but transgenderism is gender identity dysphoria. It is a mental disorder.
Trans people don't think that they are a different person. They are the same person but they know that their gender identity is incongruent for their biological gender. They literally are in the wrong gendered body.
Are you trying to claim that pedophiles, bestiality and necrophiles are the same as people who are gay, bisexual and lesbian? Something tells me that you are a bit deep in the closet with this level of hatred. Doth protests too much to be normal.............
Ok, then your opposite view is a false and ignorant statement presumably driven by a twisted desire to bend reality to accommodate a mental disorder.
They are not in the wrong body. They suffer from a mental disorder.
They are all deviant sexual behaviors (some illegal, some not). And yes of course any view contrary to your own is hatred or an “ist” or “phobe” or some other slur. You’re wasting your time with your psychology version of “it takes one to know one” baloney. It’s about as silly as saying that only a pedophile would think pedophilia is abnormal.
Please cite exactly where you think I did that. But note that since being trans appears to be caused by the same sort of prenatal hormones which cause many other intersex conditions it could be properly classified as an intersex condition. However I suspect that most trans folks would object to that classification since gender identity is a neurological trait and not one about reproductive morphology.
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Sorry but you obviously know little to nothing about this topic. Gender dysphoria isn't synonymous with being transgender and both cis and trans folks are capable of experiencing it. Neither being transgender or gender dysphoria itself are considered mental disorders despite the fact that the DSM-5 contains a diagnostic protocol for gender dysphoria. In fact the primary cause of gender dysphoria is ignorant bigots and their punitive and discordant reaction to a person which conflicts with their internal gender identity. It's really just a natural reaction against the bigots and the culture which stigmatize them. Once again it seems that you're the problem, not the solution. This might help clue you in a bit:
At least my "opposite view" is actually supported by the science as well as by all relevant medical organizations. Your views appear to be supported only by primitive superstitions and have no scientific or medical support whatsoever.
You brought up intersex and implied that it necessarily has some bearing on transgenderism. It doesn’t.
That’s purely speculative. Nobody has ever established that transgenderism is “caused” by any such thing. In fact, other than someone telling you they’re transgender, there’s no way to know it.
There’s no such thing as cis and trans. I didn’t say dysphoria was limited to transgenderism but it’s still a mental condition.
No the real problem is the insufferable jackasses who go around telling everybody else that they need to bend to accommodate a delusion so the deluded can be comfortably crazy. Its called enabling.
Your opposite view is just a bunch of malarkey pitched by modern day snake oil salesmen.
The good thing is that medical science has moved far beyond your primitive superstitions. That's why the suicide rate of trans folks is normalized when they receive proper treatment, because science ignores your primitive superstitions.
Medical professionals differ from your untrained opinions. Your opinions are unsupported by scientific fact. The physical differences in male and female brains are visible via MRI and most trans have the brain of the wrong gendered body and it can be verified by medical imagining. It can also be proven by an autopsy.
To claim that homosexuality and pedophilia, bestiality or necrophilia are the same is ignorant in the extreme. Nobody is being harmed when two consenting adults of the same gender are attracted to each other.
No, what I said is that prenatal hormones are what cause sex differentiation both for neurological structure and for internal and external reproductive morphology.
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As I've mentioned elsewhere there are cases of zygotic twins where one is trans and the other cis, in at least one case where both were raised by the same conservative family and had the same friends and other developmental experiences. The trans twin was expressing a female gender identity by the age of 2. So whatever structural neurological differences exist between these identical twins happened some time prior to the age of 2. Given that we know from animal studies that a closely related sex-differentiated trait like sexual orientation can be controlled by a hormonal switch during a prenatal critical development period, it's reasonable to assume the same is true of gender identity - that it's controlled by prenatal hormones. Of course we can't ask other animals what their gender identity is nor can it be observed in their behavior, and it's unethical to perform such experiments on humans........so I guess the only possible explanation is that transgender folks are infested by Bronze-age demons and that's what the fMRI tests have discovered.
I missed that part of his comment. LOL. It doesn't surprise me at all that there are still such bigoted and superstitious people around.
You know full well that is just conjecture based on a small unreliable study.
Whether anybody is harmed by the behavior has no logical bearing whatsoever on whether the behavior is deviant.
Considering how rare gender identity disorder is, 150 individuals who participated is not a small study.
If you are convinced that you know so much about the condition, how would you treat it with a better outcome than the current medical/psych protocol? PUOSU!
Why are you concerned about what two consenting adults do? Do you also desire to limit heterosexual intercourse that isn't missionary position for procreation?
What it does is reveal your anti-trans and anti-gay bias. It was your choice to compare gender identity and sexual orientation (neurological traits which everyone has) to the rape of children and animals and the molestation of corpses. That reveals quite a lot about you, no different (and equally irrelevant) than if you had compared left-handed people to pedophiles.
And none of that has been proven. It is entirely speculative and you know it. .
Piling malarkey higher doesn’t make it persuasive. No you cannot identify a trans twin by objective evidence. No we don’t know that sexual orientation can be controlled by a hormonal switch. No MRI tests havent “proven”anything. And, no, we need not conclude “trans gender folks” are possessed by Bronze-age demons. Transgenderism is a mental disorder not demonic possession.
You're going to be hard-pressed to find more individuals who are willing to participate because of the rareness of the condition. It isn't like breast cancer, autism or Alzheimer's.
You have posted the same angry opinion for almost an hour. Where is your proof?
Then your opinion reveals a pro-perversion bias. I compared sexual behaviors. Being left-handed is not sexual . . . well, maybe yours is to you.
Sounds like your head is firmly stuck in the sand and you refuse to look at the current science on this issue.
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The identical twins I mentioned weren't studied by fMRI, but given what I know of other fMRI studies of transgender folks it's quite likely that the same sort of differences would be found which are related to sex-differentiation of the brain.
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Yes we do from animal studies. Once again we run into ethical issues which prevent experiments on humans but it would be unreasonable to expect humans to somehow be magically different here.
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I seriously doubt you know anything about those tests or any of the other studies on this topic.
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LOL. Your claim that being transgender is a "mental disorder" is no different from attributing it to demonic possession. In other words both claims are moronic and have no support whatsoever in science, and both claims are rooted in superstition and bias.
Neither gender identity or sexual orientation are "sexual behaviors". (Skirting the CoC removed) Telo
You know that’s not true,
I’m not trying to develop a treatment. All I’m trying to do is establish that they’re the ones with the problem, not society l
I don’t give a rat’s ass what they or anybody else does in their bedroom. What I care about is somebody telling me that I have to accept abnormal behavior as normal. What do I mean by that? I don’t want to be compelled under any circumstances to accept that a man is a woman or vice versa.
I’m not angry and all you’ve posted as “proof” is either your opinion or somebody else’s. Since all that’s on the table is opinion, mine is as good as yours.
The current science is PC Science. LOL I think they should have a third track and field event only for transgenders. It's not fair when a man with a man's body decides, whether it's true or not, he's a female, but has the muscles of a man to run against girls and take all the trophy's. (Skirting the CoC removed) Telo
Actually what the science shows is that views like those you hold are the primary cause of the high suicide rate of trans folks, particularly when those odious views are held by the parent of a transgender kid.
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You just don't like medical facts which challenge your nutty superstitions about rigid gender norms and gender roles.
Except you can't cite any credible studies or medical organizations to support your Bronze-age views. All you have is mythology and superstition, not science.
https://www.thesportster.com/entertainment/top-15-famous-transgender-athletes/
by Mollie Brown – on Jul 24th in Entertainment
Athletes have long been segregated on the basis of sex. But what happens to the athletes whose physiological traits that distinguish them as female or male don’t match their gender identity? In her first major public appearance since coming out as transgender, Caitlyn Jenner used her acceptance speech for the ESPY's Arthur Ashe Courage Award to talk about her life as an athlete and a transgendered woman.
By definition, transgender is an “umbrella term” that is “used to describe anyone whose identity or behaviour falls outside stereotypical gender norms. More narrowly defined, it refers to individuals whose gender identity does not match their assigned birth gender. Being transgender does not imply any specific sexual orientation (attraction to people of a specific gender). Therefore, transgender people may additionally identify as straight, gay, lesbian or bisexual.”
My own opinion is that transgender kids should voluntarily stay out of team sports. Not being a sports fan, that’s easy for me to say, but it just seems to make the most sense to me. I am fine with them living the way they want, and enjoying the same freedoms as the rest of us, but competitive athletics will only serve to draw a shitload of unwanted attention to themselves. Pick up a skateboard or a snowboard and go nuts - but racing people to a finish line, wrestling, tackling - all that stuff will leave doubts in anyone’s mind about fairness. Even having a transgender woman tee off from the ladies tee seems like an unfair advantage.
Full disclosure - my step daughter is on a transgender path. Thankfully she is not into sports so much. She probably would disagree with everything I said here though.
That really doesn't make any sense given that many sports organizations from the NCAA to the Olympics have already adopted standards to address this kind of issue. There also seems to be an assumption made in the article and by the seeder that the competition was somehow unfair. Apparently it's only "fair" if the transgender kid loses.
What standards are there to ‘address’? Does male physical stamina get tamped down with estrogen to be more in line with female competitive levels? Does female physical stamina get boosted with testosterone to be more in line with male competitive levels? I’m not convinced that we have that kind of science mastered to the point where it could be considered fair competition. When I look at Caitlyn Jenner, I still see a male frame and features that hormones won’t ‘correct’.
That is the most bullshit statement I've ever seen you write. I had actually started considering you to be a reasonable person who made common sense. Ever see a horserace between a thoroughbred and a mule? Is that fair? You know damn well that transgenders with masculine attributes are BOUND to have more strength and stamina than girls.
It is totally unfair because they are still biological males, in spite of what they think they are!
No, they are not.
Yes to both.
They can enter a mule in a horse race because the mule thinks it’s a horse and let’s see if anybody’s stupid enough to bet on the mule. On the other hand, instead of just letting the horses race, maybe we should hobble the horse so the mule has a chance.
E.A that IS what is being done, did You see the Video I posted on the Navratilova Vs Connors Match, have a look and see how " Level the Playing Field " was note the " Tram Line " rules one Vs the Other, and the end result still was?
No to both. The idea is for athletes to compete without performance enhancing drugs. Same goes for drugs that blunt performance. Compete naturally. If your body doesn’t fit your mind, then fix your mind because it’s broken.
Good thing that doctors don't take advice from the uninformed, eh? HRT and GRS are simple but medical science still has no means of altering one's gender identity, nor would it be ethical to do so.
I believe the rules should always be designed so as to eliminate any advantages, and generally that's going to be in the female sports.
So, if someone was born male and had significant time to develop as male, they should have to compete as male, no matter what they identify as and no matter how many hormones they are on. Simply beginning estrogen therapy or having surgery is not enough. Males develop in all sorts of ways that benefit them athletically, and those advantages don't just disappear. They diminish, but they don't vanish.
Alternatively, athletes born as women should not be allowed to compete as women if they have undergone testosterone therapy to make them more male. Even the people who are taking the bare minimum in testosterone supplements will have levels several times higher than the most naturally testosterone-laden female and will have correspondingly superior speed, strength, and stamina.
On the other hand, if you were born female and transitioning to male, or born male and transitioning to female, you won't have any competitive advantages in boys' sports.
The whole point is to create a fair and level playing field. We can't allow the rare individual to abuse that idea just so they can "fit in." In the same way, I wouldn't allow a student with no legs to ride a scooter in track just for the sake of inclusivity. I don't see anybody lowering the rim so the vertically challenged can excel at basketball. We can't all "fit in."
E.A LOL but they do that , see all the " emergency services " how they have done that exact same things, sport is just the " last vestige ":
That's simply not correct.
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Again, not correct. And surgery is not only irrelevant, it's generally not even possible for high school athletes.
I suspect you have a strange idea of what it means to be transgender. No surgery is required (despite the laws in some of the more benighted red states regarding the recognition of the person's true gender identity).
E.A Even if one CHOPS it OFF and replaces it with a Slit, the DNA, the Testosterone Production, The Muscle and Bone Density, The Bone Marrow Iron production guess what?
What a useless contribution. I beg you, please don't respond to anything I say with "that's wrong" or "bullshit" or some other empty statement. I'm actually interested in intelligently discussing the issue. If you disagree with something I say, don't waste our lives just declaring it to be wrong. Supply a real reason. How about some evidence? How about some level of explanation beyond a declaration that I'm wrong and an ad hominem attack that I'm likely too stupid to understand the real issues. If you can't contribute to the conversation, I urge you not to take part. What a waste!
Your sex organs or your DNA do not determine your gender identity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGRIf7e6fP0
E.A Any one notice the " Equality " about the " Tram Lines "?
If they have separate olympics for those with phyical disablilities they should do the same kind of thing for transexuals. If men and women do not compete in those types of sports, then the exception should be made in this case as well. Has the whole concept of fairness gone down the drain because of overzealous PC?
FYI the Olympics and many other sports organizations already have standards to address transgender athletes. It's not a problem despite the wingnuts who try to make it an issue.
Why is a person a wingnut if they complain that transexuals winning over girls is unfair, when the transexuals have masculine strength and stamina that is not lost when they discarded their penis and testicles? Sorry, but I know very little about that situation, and must bow to your superior knowledge of it.
Neither of us know the details of the hormone levels of these athletes (the anatomy itself is irrelevant), but at least at the college and professional level there already are standards in place. It's more complicated at the high school level in part because bias and ignorance have often delayed trans kids receiving proper treatment, and there are legal and medical ethics restrictions too.
Note that what the seed seems to be complaining about is also present in the converse situation, where a high school in Texas didn't allow a trans male wrestler to compete on the boy's team and instead only allowed him to compete on the girl's team....where of course he won.
To me, that seems reasonable. Divisions for transsexuals, segregated by which way they've transitioned, would remove unfair advantage. Trans men would have trouble competing with cis men, too. This would allow cis women to compete against those who have not had the influence of male levels of testosterone for much of their growing years, and prevent trans men from having to compete against men who did those levels of testosterone, while the trans men did not. It seems more fair to everyone involved, including the trans athletes themselves.
As a former athlete, who competed against boys in my younger days, I can't see how a cis woman could compete against a trans woman at more advanced levels. Yes, I did well playing baseball with boys, at 12 or so. And then they hit their growth spurts at about the same time that I quit growing. I could still outplay some, but I was never going to be on the starting lineup as I had before.
I can't imagine that, if Kaitlyn Jenner were still competing in sports, that she wouldn't have an unfair advantage over cis women of her same age. She's still taller and more muscular than the majority of cis women, and that's just biological fact.
None of that is accurate.
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Assuming that she's been on HRT for more than a year or two then she has no advantage in musculature compared to a cis female athlete of the same age. The only advantage she might have is skeletal size, but that's not a generic advantage at all and there are many woman taller than Jenner.
With respect, I'd like to see links to all of that information.
Also, musculature is not the only aspect of physique which contributes to athletic prowess. In many sports, height is also an advantage. Yes, there are women taller than Kaitlyn, but not many. On average, male athletes are taller than female athletes. That affects rebound ability, stride length, arm speed in throwing, club speed in golf - all areas in which men, on average, would have an advantage, even if there were little difference in musculature.
In some, height would be a disadvantage. I doubt many trans men could compete in women's gymnastics, for example.
Should have said trans women. A woman who transitioned after developing as a man would likely be too tall for women's gymnastics, and have too high a center of gravity to excel at balance beam.
Agreed, but what you're missing is the issue of puberty and the development of secondary sex traits. Trans kids who are treated according to the currently recommended "Dutch Protocol" go through puberty as the sex which aligns with their gender identity and consequently their skeletal and muscular structure develops accordingly. It also results in a normalized suicide rate regardless of whether they ever choose to have GRS.
Another thing you're missing is that each of these folks are individuals with their own idiosyncratic traits. Some are tall, some are short, some are athletic, some aren't. What matters isn't pitting the tiny minority of trans kids against cis kids in sports but rather helping all kids realize their full potential, as well as minimizing the harm caused by the primitive superstitions and cultural prejudices which have resulted in the suicides of so many kids who don't fit some irrelevant norm. So that means all these nutty biases regarding bathroom use, sports, etc need to be put down.
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That might be true on average, just not necessarily so for any given individual. However as bias and discrimination is reduced in both school and family settings it means those kids will be more likely to get any treatment they might need, thus minimizing the number who go through the substantial trauma of a discordant puberty. And it means that their physical morphology will align far better with their real gender identity. If you doubt that you should read about the case of Nicole and Jonas Maines.
I'm so glad all the scientific experts have weighed in on this issue!
Just an opportunity for folks to bash transgenders it seems.
Thank you Shrekk and Episette for making sense and being reasonable in the face of these folks that just love to bash those different from them.
Who insulted transgenders? I wonder why you take criticism of their superior strength in matches with girls personally and are so sensitive about them.
'Who insulted transgenders? I wonder why you take criticism of their superior strength in matches with girls personally and are so sensitive about them.'
Everyone on here except Episette and Shrekk.
I am sensitive to intolerance and bigotry - not because I'm transgender skirting the CoC [ph]
Really ?
No one is bashing transgenders. I believe in treating any human being with dignity and respect no matter how many physical or psychological problems they might have.
I coached female athletes at all levels from elementary school through college for 18 years and I have always been an advocate for girls and women seeking the opportunity to compete in the same ways that boys and men do. I was a college head coach, administrator of club programs, and was president of a youth league. I fought local government and other organizations for playing areas for girls. 50 years ago, the idea of girls' sports was a joke. Now, multiple generations of women have enjoyed the benefits that come from physical fitness, competition, sportsmanship and equal opportunity. That's what Title IX was all about. Heck, that's what feminism used to be about.
In addition to facilities and funding, a key feature of fair competition has been the long standing prohibitions against hormone usage that unnaturally boosts performance.
Now, we have decided to throw all that progress in the trash and pretend that a girl with 16" biceps thanks to testosterone is part of a fair competition. Or we take a young man who wants to pretend he's a girl and watch him kick the shit out of girls who have a fraction of his strength. We have turned our backs on biological reality in favor of PC social justice posturing.
It's not about bashing transgenders. It's about defending our girls and women. That used to be a virtue.
That is pretty much my thoughts on it. I'm fine with people living life however they want for the most part. There has to be some common sense about it though. Like it or not men and women are physically different for the most part. It feels like most want to push this because they think it's only pissing off right wing people. Cutting off their nose and all that...
if they really believed there is no difference physically between man and woman then let's do away with men and women's sports.. let's just have "sports".... if the women can beat the men on trying out they get a position.
They of course know they can't let that happen... b cause when 99% of sports is just men they would complain there isn't enough women....
men and women are not physically equal. Why is that so controversial to state a fact? Party of science my ass. You can't redefine definitions and act like it still counts as science because you controlled the text books... if Hitler posted Jews were inferior in scientific journals that doesn't make it scientifically sound
It shows that you don't know much at all about the topic or how various athletic programs have addressed the issue of transgender athletes.
All one has to do is look at the facts.. such as
Someone in their 50s playing college basketball. What bio woman starts playing in her 50s? Look at the pics in that article. Look at the size of her compared to the other college girls. Not just height but proportions overall. What sane person can look at that and say "nope... clearly no advantage there"...
ita happening in sports everywhere
I know the source is meh.. but it has a list of athletes in different sports.
so again I ask.. if it's just "levels" that allow them to compete. Why are you not seeing f2m athletes winning at the same frequency? The olympics does have rules for it... and when m2f athletes start winning and breaking records that bio women couldn't break... you're going to see the rules change eventually. It doesn't mean you hate someone to point out that maybe it isn't fair they are competing against bio women.
Likely due to persistent bias from dumb bigots which is the primary problem in this area. So even when transgender kids like Mack Beggs do get puberty blockers and HRT at developmentally appropriate times, the bigoted right-wing morons in the red states and bible-babble states prevent them from competing in the appropriate category.
That highlights my point. A F2m athlete being told to compete in women's sports is dominating because of the testosterone. Which is why sports generally ban you from taking it. If He had competed in the male sports he probably would have lost unless he had enough time for the testosterone to drastically alter his muscle mass.
Wgich is why a m2f athlete can dominate women's sports so much. Regardless of what the levels are at when competing... the testosterone has already impacted a lot of the growth. Muscle density, bone length and proportions.
it has 0 to do with being bigoted. Why can't people address these discussions without throwing labels out? Because they know their argument fails based on facts... another case of feels not facts.ime it or not there is more to being male than how you feel when it comes to biology. Like it or not it is in your DNA and there are thousands of genetic markers bio men have that effect performance on various levels. Just as bio women have genetic dispositions to certain things. Women have a genetic sequence that affects the heart and calcium absorption until menopause... which is why cardiac issues arise in women after menopause drastically compared to men over a time frame. This is the future of the left... where feels are more important than facts.
No, that's why he should have been allowed to compete on the men's team, but the bigoted rubes in Texas were too dumb to allow it.....so they got the result they deserved.
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That's a completely unfounded and erroneous assumption. Assuming he was on puberty blockers before he started HRT he'll have experienced an ordinary male puberty and his bone structure and muscle mass will reflect that.
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Again, that's a completely unfounded assumption.
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It's either bigotry or ignorance, take your pick. At the very least you don't seem to know much about the topic and you're unaware of why numerous athletic programs have adopted their current hormone-based standards for trans athletes.
It's not unfounded... it's established scientific fact the role testosterone plays on a developing body. You clearly know this yourself when referencing hormone blockers during puberty. Those blockers slow the clearly male traits such as muscle mass, bone growth, and other things. If those things weren't part of male development you wouldn't advocate for hormone blockers early in puberty to prevent those traits.
It's clear you have no interest in honest discussion. You refuse to accept established fact and instead resort to your feelings and accusations. No need to continue on.
That's very true - testosterone, estrogen and other hormones have a significant impact on fetal development prenatally and shortly after birth, as well as during puberty. Sex differentiation of the brain is one of those affects and it seems to be related to traits like gender identity and sexual orientation, so it's those structural differences which are likely being detected when the brains of cis and trans persons are compared under fMRI. Of course you can ignore those differences or deny that they exist, but the reality is that the science in this area has moved far beyond your primitive Bronze-age superstitions. Heck, back then they thought the brain was merely a heat radiator.
very interesting points these students raise... i'm told quite often by the conservative minded that "life isn't fair" and that everyone should have an "equal opportunity and not equal outcome" .... seems that was the case there, correct ? should we hand out participation trophies to everyone who is whining they didn't win ?
This was a funny read !
A transgender high school athlete beat girls in the Connecticut track state championship Tuesday, but his time would have placed him last in the boys’ race.
Andraya Yearwood, a freshman at Cromwell High School, placed first in the girls’ 100-meter and 200-meter dash finals against girls from other schools in the region, according to Turtleboy Sports. But his time would have earned him last place in both boys’ competitions.
Yearwood finished the girls’ 100-meter dash with a time of 12.66 seconds and the girls’ 200-meter dash in 26.08 seconds.
The last-place finishers for the boys’ 100-meter and 200-meter dashes, Shayne Beckloff and Terrance Gallishaw, finished the races in 1 1.73 seconds and 25.59 seconds, respectively.
“It feels really good,” said Yearwood to The Day. “I’m really happy to win both titles … I kind of expected it. I’ve always gotten first, so I expected it to some extent. … I’m really proud of it.”
I suppose....If you CAN'T beat the "Last place "Boys", go for the "Girls" ! You'll WIN ! Woohoo....GOOD JOB GUYS ! You beat you some "GIRLS" !
Sounds like the girls without a stick shift and two ball bearings are going to need some HGH to complete these days.
Is she for real? What a freakshow.
I had her...or, I guess I should say she had me!
Bar time, see yas later...
Terry Miller is a boy. He will never be a girl just as he will never be Napoleon and that remains true no matter what he or anybody else thinks about it. He has a mental disorder. He can choose to immerse himself in his delusion if he likes but he doesn’t have the right to drag everybody else into it by being forced to see him as something he isn’t.
No doubt unimpaired people could defeat all the handicap competitors in the special Olympics and drive them off the field. Boys can do the same thing here. Rather than kill women’s sports by letting boys with mental disorders compete against them, maybe it would be better to start separate tranny games and let the trannies compete against each other.
On the other hand, this lunacy is entertaining. People are actually stupid enough to set up sports for females, let a boy in a wig crush them all, and prove that the best female athelete is a man. So go get em Terry. lol
Conversation has ran its course. Going in circles at this point. Happpy Fathers day. Locking