Pope Declares Death Penalty Inadmissible in All Cases
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Pope Francis has declared the death penalty inadmissible in all cases “because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person,” the Vatican announced on Thursday, in a shift in Roman Catholic teaching on the issue.
Pope Francis said that the Roman Catholic Church would work “with determination” for the abolition of capital punishment worldwide.
Alessandra Tarantino/Associated Press
The pontiff, who is the spiritual leader of 1.2 billion Catholics, said the church would work “with determination” for the abolition of capital punishment worldwide.
Previously, the catechism allowed the death penalty in some cases, if it was “the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor,” even if in reality “cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender today are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”
The new formal teaching acknowledges that there are new ways to protect society.
“There is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes,” it says.
“In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state. Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.”
Abolishing the death penalty has clearly been one of Francis’ top priorities for many years, along with saving the environment and caring for immigrants and refugees. He mentioned it in his address to the American Congress on his trip to the United States in 2015, saying that “from the beginning of my ministry” he had been led “to advocate at different levels for the global abolition of the death penalty.”
He added, “I am convinced that this way is the best, since every life is sacred, every human person is endowed with an inalienable dignity, and society can only benefit from the rehabilitation of those convicted of crimes.”
On that trip, Francis made a point of going to a prison in Pennsylvania and meeting with a few prisoners and their families.
He wrote a detailed letter in 2015 to the International Commission against the death penalty, arguing that capital punishment “does not render justice to the victims, but rather fosters vengeance.”
In it, he made two arguments that specifically spoke to the American context: The death penalty is illegitimate because many convictions have later been found to be in error and have been overturned, and because executions of prisoners in some states have been badly botched.
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Killing a helpless prisoner is murder.
It doesn't matter what that person has done previously. If we, as a society, kill a helpless person, then we are all murderers.
If a person has committed a heinous crime against another (presumably helpless) person, they were hardly helpless themselves to begin with and they deserve just punishment commensurate with the severity and intent of the crime.
The subject isn't them. The subject is us.
If we kill a helpless person, we are murderers. We are no better than the person we are killing.
The person isn't helpless. The person was caught, tried, and convicted for a particularly terrible crime under due process. Therefore, it's a punishment, not a murder. Now, if a person didn't do anything and was executed for nothing, then your statement has merit.
The person is in a cell. Surrounded by armed guards. Helpless.
Their own actions led them there. It's reasonable to assume if they weren't there, they would continue to engage in said actions. Just because they're captured and guarded does not absolve them of a punishment commensurate with the crime.
They are not helpless. They throw bodily fluids and excrement at the guards. They would kill for a smuggled cell phone or a candy bar. The gang members are not helpless as they conduct business from behind bars and even have their perceived enemies on the outside "taken care of".
Strapping someone down to a table and then botching the whole bloody (literally) mess over several hours is pretty much a helpless situation. It starts to become torture at some point. This biblical "eye for an eye" shit has to stop if we really want to lay claim to being civilized society.
God and His laws have no bearing here. We are a secular nation of laws.
Hanging or firing squad are more appropriate
You claim to be a Christian, right? Which method of execution would your Christ command?
My Christ would say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!"
We disagree on this issue. Life without parole is the ultimate sentence for heinous crimes. Logically we cannot claim as a society that premeditated killing is the ultimate evil and then plan someone's death months in advance as revenge. There have been multiple instances of the wrong person being executed so what is the proper response when that happens, unlike the idea that we can released someone from prison when they have been wrongfully convicted and sentenced to life without parole.
There are just too many possibilities for a mistake to happen is the justice system for the death penalty to even be an option.
You need to re-read your bible because Jesus told you not to do that.
Matthew 5:38-42
He believes in a blood-thirsty Christ.
It's always ironic when an atheist knows the bible better than a vocal Sunday podium thumper.
Oh, no don't go quotin' Jesus to these people. Nothing makes 'em more irate than having their betrayal of his teachings thrown into their faces.
Yes, because of the way their brain functions.
At one time I was totally fine with executing the mentally disabled that commit murders. Now, I am hoping that advances in brain scans will help identify potential murders and we will find ways to help those people before they kill others.
I am also hoping that in the near future that our government will require brain scans, counseling and possibly medical treatment for violent adults in order to help them from falling victim to their own biology and/or environment.
Whose brains should be scanned? I see a huge potential for abuse. I think we have already gone too far in violating rights to bodily autonomy.
Anyone convicted of doing bodily harm to other people. If they are mentally ill, then prison is not going to do one damned thing to make it safe to return them to society.
A rare moment.
Seems like a waste of time or resources.
It's not revenge, but rather justice.
You bring up the main issue with capital punishment: the possibility that the "criminal" is actually innocent. While I agree with capital punishment as a means of punishment/justice for the most heinous of crimes, at least in theory, the possibility of the convicted being innocent is a concern and gives one pause.
Here's data on waste of time and money involved to carry out the death penalty:
So, you'd be against this bogus religious freedom argument that Sessions is using to create the FBI task force to "investigate" the non-existence of religious repression in this country and are willing to say so publicly--i.e., here.
You seem to be having a hard time sticking to the topic.
Why is that?
I'm aware actually carrying out the death penalty is a lengthy and cost intensive process, especially due to the appeals process. Still, keeping someone convicted of heinous crimes alive and incarcerated for life for no good reason or benefit is also costly.
Life without the possiblity of parole is cheaper than the death penalty because of the mandatory appeals. The death penalty is not meted out evenly and it violates the 8th amendment in the 21st century because it is unnecessary.
The argument for the death penalty is purely emotional, so there are no facts will change people's minds who support it.
There's a lot of that going around these days....
Yes, I did allude to that. Legalities always complicates things.
The same can be said for arguments against it too.
Why do you run away from what should be easy things to answer?
Because at least ONE of us has to stick to the topic, and I already see that it won't be you.
Sue me.
I'm personally fine with that
Then you're fine with being executed for murder?
Once arrested, charged, tried, found guilty and sentenced by a jury of my peers, yes.
That is how the system is supposed to work.
Said from the comfort of home at the computer. That's akin to Scumbag's claim that "oh, yeah, I'd have run into the school to face that guy with the automatic rifle."
I was actually at the office and not all that comfortable (no AC) but whether at home, the office or the back country of the Golan, Yugoslavia or Afghanistan my original statement still stands. If I became a scum of the earth murdering POS who was properly convicted and sentenced I would still support the death penalty.
I have no idea what the rest of your statement is going on about
It's about making great claims of bravery (i.e. willing to passively accept death or run in to save the day against a guy with an automatic weapon) at a distance with no evidence of past heroism (or in Scumbag's case plenty of evidence of cowardice).
Thanks for explaining your beliefs, though I'm uncertain what they have to do with my statement of fact
Claiming you'd be fine submitting to the death penalty is not anywhere close to being a fact.
Beliefs and faith without evidence, how very christian like of you.
Anyway one of us knows me far better than the other so rest assured I'll give your beliefs all the consideration they deserve.
Not often I disagree with you Bob, but I completely support the death penalty. In my opinion, it's not used nearly enough.
Corrosion of the soul...
I'm assuming that MrFrost is a bit more poetic......
Now, that I certainly agree with (because it's true).
As do I, however it was poetic.
That's a silly argument. As a society, are we kidnappers or slavers because we have prisons?
What about all those killed in the great flood, the first born of Egypt and all those other people killed by the Lord or by Lord's command in the Bible?
What about them?
they are just as dead as convicted criminal executed by state
Don't you know, god always seems to get a free pass. I've even heard some theists defend or rationalize god's actions, saying it's his "righteous" judgment or "who are we to question god," ect.
I don't know.
In any case, I did not participate, so I feel no responsibility.
If my elected government murders someone, I am responsible.
No you are not. It is out of your control you are not responsible.
You're not responsible for the actions of another doing something wrong of their own choice. if your elected official commits a crime, you are not guilty of it or by association just because you happened to vote for them.
We're not talking about the law. We're talking about morality. If my elected representative does something immoral - like killing a helpless person - then I am responsible. So are you.
Morality is subjective. Just because someone else willfully did something wrong does not make me guilty of the crime. Not by a long shot. You seem to think one should be guilty by association.
but if the deity you worship kills, you are not just as responsible as you say you are if your government executes?
That is the original sin premise used in the Bible.
Sure... but I do not worship any God, so...
I don't either
That would depend if you voted for and support that representative? You can't be morally held accountable for the actions of someone who you didn't vote for and don't support.
Exactly right. The person that committed the crime is responsible.
WOW! Mr Frost, Dean and me agree on something
*runs outside* Yep, sun is still there.... I am not as far to the left as some would believe, but I am certainly left of center.
“because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person"
What about the inviolability and dignity of those who have been murdered, in some instances quite brutally. Isn't it his bible that says an eye for an eye?
The Bible says lots of things, such as "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!"
If we arrest a monster who has tortured children to death... should we torture that person to death... very, very slowly, to make up for the fact that he's no longer a child?
We need to stop and ask ourselves what it is, very exactly, that we want to be doing.
Do we want to be no better than the murderer we are murdering?
The difference is, we wouldn't slowly torure or execute someone. Criminal justice would still be comparatively humane (especially compared to what the convicted has done) and perform a relatively quick execution.
Why not?
Because we are not like the criminal in question. We can still provide justice in a humane manner, unlike the actions of the criminal.
Exactly. Compared to the victim, the criminal might have it good. Probably more than they deserve.
So... we are kinder murderers...
I am still confused over how you can't separate punishment proscribed by law with actual crime.
SMMFH
As far as I am concerned, their last meal should consist of a nutraloaf on white bread (stale) . A cheap small bag of chips (also stale), and a glass of warm water .
That's not a problem for me.
Why are you unable to separate punishment from crime?
I'm not.
R-I-g-h-t.
And your comments prove otherwise.
Murder is the taking of innocent life. We are not executing the innocent and you have not made that claim in this thread
Oh?
There have been innocent people executed when the jury convicted the wrong person. The death penalty is both morally wrong and unnecessary. It is purely an act of revenge.
The fact that the vast majority of murder convictions are not eligible for the death penalty is ignored by you and other supporters of capital punishment.
Agreed. For a lot of people their justice is just that, revenge.
I can never understand people that claim to follow Jesus yet can wait to pull the trigger themselves.
I have seen cases where people have been exonerated when DNA testing became a better resource.
Execution is nothing but a (warped) feel good remedy.
Do you believe that some people really do see this as their only way to give "justice" to the victim that society did not protect?
I live a few miles away from where this 9 year old girl lived and where her sexually abused corpse was found. I had never met her or any of her family, but I still feel the world will be a better place without her murderer in it. From a local, I learned that Collings' adopted father had paid the family of a 13/14 year old girl several thousand dollars to not file rape charges against his son a few years before Collings murdered Rowan Ford.
True.
A middle aged man, that I met 20 years ago, just tried to frame his wife for murder because she is divorcing him and he can't get custody of the children. Luckily, he did not succeed. Unluckily, he is an ex-Army Ranger that has had his brain scrambled in an explosion in Iraq or Afghanistan and is not taking the medication that was proscribed to him after he threatened to kill his wife and children several years ago. I am really praying that he doesn't kill them.
Killing the perpetrator is not an act of justice because it doesn't bring the victim back to life and it doesn't help the family heal. This is purely an act of state-sanctioned revenge in the public square. We have secure prisons so it is completely unnecessary in the 21st century. I am not unconvinced that the guilty might be able to be rehabilitated in some way because most of these people are usually severely mentally ill.
The fact that the many trials and mandatory appeals make the death penalty more expensive than life without parole should appeal to fiscal conservatives, but it doesn't because their support of capital punishment is not founded on logical thought.
A strong argument can be made that we do slowly torture someone prior to execution.
I'm still on the fence regarding the death penalty. I think is perfectly fine to execute child rapists who kill. I have no qualms about that if the case is airtight and includes DNA. But we often don't have that level of certainty. A result of an innocent being put to death is too high a price to pay.
Exactly. Some of these monsters should be drug behind a truck on a bumpy gravel road until they are dead.
I don't see anyone feeling sorry for the convicted perpetrator. What we are saying is that we cannot allow justice to become bloodlust revenge. Murderers still have constitutional rights and the 8th Amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.
True, and I agree with that, (I admit I was engaging in hyperbole above.....head first into a wood chipper is much more humane, but way messy..LOL). /s
or motivated by fear of the murderer killing again, maybe even one of them or their loved ones?
How about rapists who kill teenage and adult women? Why should those rapists be exempt from the death penalty?
The alternative to the death penalty is life without the possibility of parole, so that would be extremely unlikely to happen. The vast majority of people who are convicted for murder do not qualify for the death penalty and they are often released after serving 15-25 years.
I'm not sure how rape would qualify for the death penalty, unless he also killed multiple victims
And how many are rehabilitated into society and how many wind up back in prison for harming or killing more people?
I really hope the following murderers were successfully rehabbed in prison....
The question was to a statement supporting the death penalty for rapists who kill their victims. I was wondering why the penalty should be different because of the age of the victim who was raped AND murdered.
It shouldn't be different.
Very interesting thread...
May I suggest that you are fixating too much on the perp and the victim, and forgetting the third party: the executioner... us!
I am opposed to the death penalty because I do not want to commit murder. I do not want to descend to the same depths as the perp. I do not want to put the perp in the same context as his victims.
The important person in this moral quandary is us as a society.
The recidivism rate of US prisons is proof that there is only lip service paid to the idea of truly rehabilitating people to be productive citizens when they are eventually released. That needs to change because we are spending far too much for the extremely poor efforts that they achieve. Other countries have proved that it is possible. In the US we are more interested in punishment and it doesn't work.
That was thought to be understood.
I wish!!
Depends on the method I suppose.
I would bet many are.
Or child rapists/killers in general.
Therein lies the rub. Establishing absolute certainly is possible, but also difficult.
I agree. What programs do other countries use that the US doesn't?
If the US economy and government mirrored Norway, then we would also be experiencing less criminal activity. However, there is no way in Hell that the citizens of the US are going to support having a Democratic Socialist president and government in the near future. Our citizens support a Wall Street owned government that results in ever growing income inequality and expanding poverty. Poverty fuels fear, which fuels anger, which fuels violence and crime.
So the answer begins with the US not having a proper social safety net, access to affordable quality education, access to even basic medical care and a whole host of other programs that are available in Norway because Norway's focus is on taking care of ALL of its citizens instead of policing the world and empire building.
If our citizens suddenly started caring about other people then our government wouldn't be among the top 5 arms dealers in the world and supplying the armaments that are killing women and children as I type this sentence.
If we want a society that mirrors Norway, then we must make some drastic changes in our Wall Street owned government, our education, medical access and social safety net. Our pensions will not be based on Wall Street profit exploiting people's labor (including all of those people in our prisons who slave away daily for corporations).
How many people in the US care about enriching their 401K accounts by using slave labor? My guess is not many or they would quit supporting it.
Don't project your own beliefs on to me. Executing the perpetrator does nothing for the family or the victim.
I have gone so far as to write a statement in my will that if I die at the hands of another I oppose the imposition of the death penalty in their trial.
more on the who, how and why of today's "modern" profit driven prison system.
I didn't say they should be exempt.
What does it accomplish by executing someone instead of sentencing them to life without the possibility of parole? Life without parole is cheaper and it allows for mistakes to be corrected, unlike when the state executes an innocent person.
Capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime. We also have the 8th amendment that prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.
It is illogical to say that premeditated murder is the ultimate evil and then to plan to execute someone years in advance. The death penalty survives on the idea of state-sanctioned revenge and nothing more.
While that sounds cute, wonderful and justified, the problem is when WE take a life that is mistaken for taken a life AND WE are wrong.
Uh-oh, I think you may have tempted the wrath of our very own "Church Lady" by throwing a wrench into the gears of her moral jalopy.
The idea of an eye for an eye just makes society as immoral as the perpetrator because they also kill someone, in revenge. Stop looking for revenge instead of seeking justice through the court system.
I've always been somewhat torn about how I feel about the death penalty. While I am against killing any life (which creates it's own inner conflict) and the penalty of death verses a life imprisonment sentence.
In extreme cases I can see it. In ways it even makes since. But, in many cases,especially when the accused/convicted person is not actually caught in the act, I have always had a bitter internal feeling about the authority of men willfulling ending another human life. Especially, considering every human I ever knew makes mistakes and that includes police, lawyers and judges.
it may help to know I really appreciate and cherish life perhaps more than some, as I am the only surviving member of my family. That is/was an eye opener !!
DNA is a great tool unfortunately, the humans using this new DNA tool are humans who also make mistakes. Anyway, I'm damn glad it isn't my call.
And what is it when the person the state killed turns out to have been innocent?
Not even DNA is certain.
Can we execute you and then admit 5 years later that you were innocent, or does that only apply to other people?
Did she commit a crime worthy of the death penalty?
Kathleen's reply in 3.1.58 says that she has no problem executing someone who later turns out to be innocent, so I asked her if we could execute her and later admit that she was innocent or did her idea only apply to other people?
You cannot say that because they were convicted of robbery and murder but we later exonerated for the murder that they were still guilty and deserved to die, because robbery is not a capital crime.
Both of your arguments are among the many reasons why the death penalty must end.
I am against hard labor as punishment for many reasons. The idea of using prisoners for labor is an open invitation for using criminals as a proxy slave labor force, and those human rights violations cannot be tolerated.
I would much rather there is more effort put into rehabilitation instead of punishment. The rehabilitation should start at the very start of the incarceration by looking for medical and mental heath issues.
Her post said nothing, absolutely NOTHING, of the sort.
You can't just make stuff up and expect people to not call you on it.
My question was obviously rhetorical.
Executing someone who is innocent by mistake is much more than sad. That is murder.
We don't know enough about the human brain for me to say no, so I will say that it may be possible.
War crimes or treason are the only crimes that be possible in any way.
The UCMJ plays by different rules for treason.
War crimes trials are usually an international tribunal that has higher standards for guilt than a civilian criminal court.
E.A Balance that with how many More are Murderer by Guilty one let loose!
You cannot possibly shame a child molester. It could be chemical, biological or mental illness related to early childhood.
Child molestation without murder is not a capital crime.
That is very likely not a capital crime. Life without the possibility of parole is the proper sentence.
me too
It would depend on the circumstances of the crime.
The Pope can say whatever he wants. He has no authority in the eyes of our law.
Who claimed that Pope Frank has any legal authority in the US?
Why, I don't think anyone did.
Why? What have you heard or read?
You brought that idea up in reply 4.0. I was merely questioning why you did so.
oops, sorry about that.
I thought it a FACT that the Pope has no authority in law.
Is what I said incorrect or something?
deleted
The pope has no legal authority outside of the Vatican. He was speaking on his moral authority of a religious leader, that is somewhat questionable because of the church's actions on pedophilia, genocide and bank fraud.
So we agree--the Pope has no legal authority here, and his opinion means no more than yours or mine.
This pope sure seems like a burr under Tex's saddle. Or maybe it's just any pope.
No, I am not a Catholic, so I recognize the Pope as the head of the Catholic Church, and nothing more.
His opinions don't have any weight in American secular law, period.
Neither does any other religion.
Exactly, so why is what the Pope says "news"?
Because he is the leader of 1.2 billion people? Just a guess.
One man, one opinion.
B.F.D.
Not one opinion, it is the opinion of the Catholic church. There is no more cover for Catholics who support the death penalty.
His personal opinion, just like that of the Catholic Church, has no weight in American secular law.
His opinion has no more importance on the subject than does yours or mine.
That's not true unless you believe the Pope doesn't reach the masses of Catholics and sway their opinions on policies like the death penalty...Catholics who vote in the US.
Think more broadly and you'll realize he's not just one man with one opinion. He is the leader of a massive church following and he can and does sway their opinions.
it seems that many people dismiss or do not realize the influence "leaders" or even other people have on your opinions, choices, voting practices etc. He's only one man, but does garner much influence to his followers - we've seen this situation before in history many times.
Seems like the pope was a lot less influential than many would have us believe. His words didn't matter when it came to birth control or abortion.
His words and Catholic beliefs have no bearing or weight on American secular law.
i'm not sure what you are talking about (I personally don't follow the pope so i'm not up to date on every scandal or news article etc on him) - but it's rather silly (and predictable from some people - not necessarily meaning you personally) to outright dismiss that a "leader" would not be influential on his/her followers
yes they absolutely indirectly do - it's rather naive and silly to think otherwise since those who are influenced by his words and beliefs are... ready ? .... voters !
Perhaps not in your opinion but as a moral authority at least his views on what some call the "sacredness" of human life are consistent whereas the subject of the death penalty lays bares the gross hypocrisy and sanctimony of vast majority of people who claim to be "pro-life." And for that he is to be commended and admired if not agreed with. And, like it or not, there are people in this country who listen to this pope and not all of them are Catholic.
If you'd like to push for a law that forbids coverage of all prominent (or any) religious leaders, I'm with you all the way.
You believe that anti choice catholics don't vote for pro life candidates?
Let's get real, the Catholic church would do away with BC and abortions if they could get their way.
That is kind of the whole point here.
Catholics certainly didn't "get their way" on abortion and BC, so what makes anyone think they'll get their way on the death penalty?
That is pretty stupid, and hell, no, I would never support that.
That is what I think about the religions that want to control women's fertility and lady bits. I don't care if its insurance coverage, choice, contraception, whatever, employers and religions should have NO INPUT AND NO LEGAL WAY TO DISCRIMINATE.
Abortion is perfectly legal.
Birth control is readily and cheaply available.
What's the problem?
I'll save that for another seed.
Probably for the best, since that isn't the topic here.
Gosh.…."GOD's" in religions have used the "Death Penalty" at one time or another. Is the Pope going against "Gods" ?
Are "Humans" not worthy enough to use what tool "God's" have used for centuries ?
Rather than to be put them to death, let's put them in solitary confinement. No human contact except the person who brings their meals, with no talking allowed, one hour a day of exercise in an enclosed yard with no view of the outside except the blue sky. No TV, computers, phones, or any kind of reading material. But would this arrangement be considered cruel and unusual? But after all they would still be alive!
Because that would be a clear violation of the 8th article of the Bill of Rights. But life without parole would not otherwise be a violation. In some ways that would be worse than death. I suspect many who have that sentence would, at some point, wish to die rather than continue.
Popes ordered the Crusades, people were killed on the Popes orders
A Pope ordered the killing of the Knights Templar
Yes. Centuries ago.
How are these facts relevant to the present conversation?
that is when Bible things happened
No. Bible things happened much, much longer ago. Not centuries... millennia.
(If they happened at all....)
OK some Bible things did happen a really long time ago; But, our year is 2018 AD
Yes. And the Pope just broke with centuries of Church law.
I'm not Catholic, nor a fan of the Church... but a big step in the right direction is a big step in the right direction.
It’s just another demonstration the the Church of Rome is a cult that doesn’t follow and obey Christ
... because you, with your glee at the idea of executing people... you consider yourself a follower of Christ?
That is true of all organized religion.
Well... yes... of course.
Except for the dinosaurs, who didn't make it on board. That's why they went extinct, you know...
I have no joy over the death of anyone. But Justice is justice
You base that accusation on what evidence?
E.A Yes even the god of Evolutionist know that " Rule ".
See Apoptosis and how it works!
Is your God a God of justice or a God of mercy?
Mine said “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.” Luke 6:36
I'm reminded of something I heard long ago: Justice should never rob mercy.
Observation of actions and reactions and quite a bit of research. Probably more evidence than you have that there is a god.
So? Although (obviously) I'd have little use for any religion, it's pretty clear the Catholic Church is not stuck in the middle ages unlike some other versions of alleged "Christianity" or other entire religions.
The time the Catholic Church seem most concerned with was before that and not today
Just now, a Pope has overthrown centuries of Church law.
The teachings of Jesus and the Apostles did not come in the Middle Ages
Popes can do things like that, I don't understand it though. They are supposed to be infallible but the new Pope can change what the old infallible ones before him said was right
Kinda confusing, isn't it?
I've never understood.
Actually the doctrine of papal infallibility is a relatively modern innovation from the late 1860s, and it's why a number of Catholic groups like the Old Catholic Church split off from the RCC then. The RCC also became much more extreme on abortion at the same time.
And they've rarely been followed and only by a tiny number of so-called "Christians." Certainly not in evidence at all by the loudest who claim to be Christian.
Based upon what evidence?
i don’t deny that a majority of those who identify as Christians don’t live according to the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles
I've been making that accusation from within the body of Christ for nearly 40 years
but to say its a tiny percentage is not accurate, especially those in 3rd world countries.
You need to get out more Larry.
"Look to thine own house." 1 Kings 12:16
I've spent most of my life ignoring, laughing at, or denying all sorts of religious nonsense. I believe I'll continue doing so with this little gem of an article.
Oh this is just priceless. The office that gave us the Crusades and worked with the Nazi's is telling us the death penalty is wrong. Not to mention this is coming from a man who said molesting alter boys was the norm and acceptable.
There were two more high ranking Catholic clergy this week that are accused/convicted of molestation.
the numbers of people arrested for human trafficking, sexual abuse, and pedophilia has skyrocketed lately.
regardless of ideology I would think everyone can agree - more creeps off the streets is a good thing
this pope and his church are as evil as evil gets
Here's a fun one but he's not Catholic:
Maybe they can feed him to a whale?
Mother Teresa was a sadistic asshole.
human trafficking and pedophilia are the ties that bind the elite.
that is how they keep each other in line and protected at the same time.
these people have been running our world for about 60yrs and now their time has drawn near.
Pizzarias are tied into that too.
Oh, Jer, did you forget the churches that underwrote, encouraged, justified, spread even lauded slavery in this country? Better check the walls of that house before throwing stones.
Most of American Christianity opposed slavery.
very true, it was the devout who led the movement to end slavery here and in england. Without the moral pressure from men like wilber Willberforce, the abolitionist movement would have never have got off the ground.
Is that why the Southern Baptists were created to defend slavery?
Sounds like you never learned why the Southern Baptist sect came to exist.
I'm sure you'd like to think so. Okay, that might have been true in a few northern states but not at all where it mattered. The southern churches were bastions of support for slavery. Hell, even the largest sect of them, the Southern Baptists, has formally admitted to and apologized for its role in justifying and perpetuating slavery as well as the atrocities of the Jim Crow era of terrorism that replaced it.
The other aspect is that until at least the late 1950s almost all Christian churches in the US officially supported racial segregation both in the law and in their church organizations, and a few like the 7th Day Adventists are still officially racially segregated at the higher levels. It was primarily the black churches which were open to all, not the white ones. Even the Episcopal church was segregated in its hierarchy until the mid 1950s.
And of course that history of official segregation persists as de facto segregation in the congregations of most Christian churches today.
Some personal thoughts and questions::
I do hope that the Site ----- Does not find them of " No Value " you know " ones mans trash another treasure "
1) What is the rate of recidivism?
2) Who is " responsible " for those " extra deaths " under 1.
3) For those that have evolution as " God " how does " Mother Nature " deal with those that endanger the Tribe/Clan/Pride etc:
4) What would be the " Natural state " if evolution did not have a way to get " rid of trash "
Be Civil Stay on TOPIC, do not attempt to be a MIND reader, read only what IS posted!
As to the " Authority of the Pope "::
In a World of " LAWS " what defines who and what have " Authority "?
In a Government, what gives some the authority to mass murder by a declaration of war?
What constitutes a " Legal State " and is the Vatican/Sea one of them and is it Older that some Nations?
To those that can ANSWER the above, trying to negate the " Authority of a Pope " means what?
authority comes from power, which ultimately comes from the barrel of a gun
the pope has none of that so he has no authority over anyone.
E.A Wow that is a " Big Jump " so you think that the Vatican/Sea has no " Military Might " ? care to prove your stance?
And if all " Laws " are the power of the " Gun " that leads to what major questions/problems , for those that want No Guns for Citizens?
nothing that matters... the holy sea attacking the usa because of our attachment to capital punishment would be a joke at best. meaning the pope can fuk off.
big problems. and we will be keeping our guns for that very reason. in this country, we the people hold all the power, it is our government and our military and that military will not follow illegal orders from any president or any pope.
even trumps authority stems from the 2nd amendment... if trump or any president goes rouge? our military will take them out.
people who want "no guns for citizens" can go hang out with the pope for all I care... they matter not either.
E.A Ahh ok, you should let world Leaders know that, because many have to as Hitler also had to get the " Blessing " so as to get the " Power " but, what ever rocks your boat, thanks for playing!
NB: See their Swearing IN ceremonies, and what Oaths they take!
unlike past presidents... trump did not see the pope before the election to get any blessing.
he saw the pope after the election to give the pope a good old fashioned what fer.
E.A if that is what You think, so be it, again thanks you for playing!
when the vatican invades the USA with their god almighty military because we ignore the pope? you just let me know ok?
and thank you for playing also
E.A LOL ok will do, see back in the 1800' to get a little drift tho!~
no thanks... im chillin right here.
but thanks for thinking about me
E.A Any time, that what distinguishes us from Animals to Humans, OR is it ;-)
Yep, very different indeed.
Pope Francis Declares Death Penalty Unacceptable in All Cases
Pope Francis said that the Roman Catholic Church would work “with determination” for the abolition of capital punishment worldwide.
Credit
Alessandra Tarantino/Associated Press
E.A So why does this merit its own Seed, but comments are only limited?
What does that say about Evolutionists and their " Religion " and what influence does it have in General?
Most on NT want to voice That No Religion should have any bearing to " World Affairs " this does what to their declaration as some have over and over declared that the Pope and the Catholic " Faith " merits?
As Per Quote::
" The pope’s decree is likely to hit hardest in the United States, where a majority of Catholics support the death penalty and the powerful “pro-life movement” has focused almost exclusively on ending abortion — not the death penalty. The pope’s move could put Catholic politicians in a new and difficult position, especially Catholic governors like Greg Abbott of Texas and Pete Ricketts of Nebraska, who have presided over executions. "
The Pope needs to have a " Legal " Right, what is it and from where is it derived, who is the Popes Higher Power?
the papal decree ignored around the world... LOL who does that pope think he is... god?
everything good is eventually corrupted by man... the churches are no exception to this rule.
E.A Bingo You got this one!!
Yes Popes, Boss is God, and hence no one will follow when He goes astray, so see how that works similarly to the Constitution of the US of A, that is what defines a " Legal Sate " so see how that works now?
The " We the People " Part and how Evolution also ties in to that?
not enough will follow this decree to make any difference in the bigger capital punishment picture around the world.
but hey... tell ya what...
just let me know when texas stops capital punishment because "the pope said so."
that is when I will be impressed
E.A see this :: 11 Eagle Averro
Take it to that Thread and I be happy to comply!
First tho answer the questions as Posted!
many convictions have later been found to be in error
When we get it figured out I'll be for the death penalty more.
E.A and in the meantime You take accountability for the Recidivism, and then what?
How many Innocents Murdered is acceptable?
How many Paedophiles Satisfied before the Childs welfare take precedent?
how many innocent people will die ?
In November, the regularly conservative editorial board of The Birmingham News announced it had found gaping irregularities in that state's criminal justice system, forcing it to about-face and oppose capital punishment.
"Cases where inmates have been convicted and later cleared challenge long-held notions about the reliability of eyewitness identification, the use of jailhouse snitches and, in some cases, the integrity of police and prosecutors," the editors said in the introduction to a series examining how death penalty convictions are won in Alabama.
"While these questions apply to all criminal cases, they are particularly troubling in death penalty cases where mistakes can go, literally, to the grave."
E.A Ok I see, so you did NOT look up " Recidivism " and how many Others are Killed by Murderers incarcerated/escaped/pardoned etc::, care to do it NOW, so you will be better informed before taking on a Load?
NO, but I doubt you click on or read my links on it either ..so...
E.A Wonderfully stated, thanks for your candour " blind do NOT wish to see " thank you!
National Statistics on Recidivism
Bureau of Justice Statistics studies have found high rates of recidivism among released prisoners. One study tracked 404,638 prisoners in 30 states after their release from prison in 2005.[1] The researchers found that:
Your welcome, But, Not a case of blind not wanting to see, (did you clink on my links or read what I put forth ?) It’s more a matter of not wanting to be talked down to.
May 23, 2018
5 OUT OF 6 STATE PRISONERS WERE ARRESTED WITHIN 9 YEARS OF THEIR RELEASE
Press Release
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To cite this product, use the following link:
Evidently release is not the answer IMO Killing innocent people just to make sure ya kill others still isn't OK.
E.A But it is ok to let others Kill and then, claim ignorance, right?
Do some research and be better informed
END
If innocent yeh dont kill em and END
I agree
Compare the cost of keeping Charles Manson in jail alive for all those years with cost of a reusable length of rope. Why punish the taxpayers?
E.A Yes how many Taxpayers will PAY for this :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fac-ZFmqLj0
This is in response to a LIE, that while in Prison recidivism does not occur, a little more reading will indeed show a Multiple of murders while incarcerated, so who would want a " first time offender Offed " while serving a sentence, is that morally acceptable?
So killing is ok, when done by a Killer no matter who is killed?
What " Breed " does that generate, and would any one allow a dog breeder to breed " Killer dogs"?
Would Evolution allow it?
Who recidivates? (Yes, that’s the verb they use.)
Here’s another surprising fact: The most violent prisoners are actually the least likely to end up back in jail. And they’re very unlikely to commit the same crime again (see figure 2).
Figure 2. Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics
One percent of released killers ever murder a second time, while over 70 percent of robbers and burglars commit the same crimes over and over. According to criminologist Robert Weisberg of Stanford Law School, robbers and burglars tend to be career criminals for two reasons: First, their offenses are likely to be crimes of skill, not crimes of passion. And second, their jail and prison sentences are shorter, so they are younger, healthier, and more able to commit subsequent crimes upon their release. People convicted of murder, on the other hand, are often elderly and in poor health by the time they have complete their sentences.
https://criminal.media/famous-criminals-that-were-murdered-in-prison
Which criminals ended up becoming the victim? Check out the criminals that were murdered in prison for reasons you couldn't imagine.
Once a criminal gets thrown into jail for a crime they've committed, you know they're staying behind bars for a few months or even a couple of years, depending on what crime they've done. There are also fellow inmates in prison who hate other inmates for their crimes. Some of the other inmates can't even stand being around them. But aside from the inmates, police officers loathe some inmates, too, whether they're a killer or a political activist.
Which Is Safer: City Streets or Prison?
Prison.
Photo by Lucy Nicholson/Reuters
Paul Mannina, the Labor Department lawyer charged with assaulting a colleague using handcuffs and a stun gun, was found dead in his Washington, D.C., jail cell with his throat slashed on Tuesday. It’s not yet clear whether his death was a murder or suicide, but jail and prison murders are regularly in the news. A Missouri man was charged on Tuesday with strangling his cellmate, and a California jury is now considering the death penalty for a 2005 prison murder. Are you more likely to be murdered in jail or on the Washington city streets?
On the streets. The homicide rate in local jails nationwide hovered around 3 inmates per 100,000 between 2000 and 2010, according to data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. (There are too few jail inmates in the district to generate a useful Washington-specific figure.) The overall murder rate in Washington in 2011 was 17.5 per 100,000, which means free people in the nation’s capital are more than five times more likely to be murdered than inmates. Before you flee the district, though, keep in mind that local jails boast a lower murder rate than most places. Nationwide, there were 4.7 murders per 100,000 people in 2011, making local jails and state prisons safer than the average American town.
E.A SO it seems some are " Willing to PAY for Murder to happen in Prison "?
I tis not just " Three Hots and a Cot " but it also seems to be " Do as You Pplease we nare ok with it "
Catholics aren't special. Their views have no more weight on American law than does the Pope's opinion.
Catholic views didn't stop abortions or birth control, did they?
It is ludicrous to think that the death penalty will be stopped if some Catholics say no.
Are you a devotee of pastor John Hagee by any chance?
No, and nothing, absolutely nothing, in my post even suggests such a thing.
Why do you keep grasping at straws?
So you say.
Damn right I say.
So now you want to tell me who and what I support?
I mean, seeing as how you know so well.
SMMFH
Go ahead and SYMFH all you like. You aren't a hard read. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Read me, then.
Tell me what I am thinking about your posts.
Tell me I give a shit.
Nope, and not even close!
Gee, for being so capable of "reading" me, you are doing one lousy job of it!
Guess again?!
A lot of my fellow liberals here are eagerly declaring their support for the death penalty but I can't join them and it's not because I'm morally opposed to it. It's because for me to support the death penalty it would have to be on the condition that we have a perfect system of justice which never makes mistakes and guarantees that no one is ever put to death due to a wrongful conviction. We know that has never been the case in this country and we also know that it never will be.
I oppose the death penalty mostly because of an imperfect justice system but also out of the belief that it coarsens society and dulls morality.
Yes, there's that as well.
If they were convicted, determined to be a risk to society and can't be fixed, why should they be kept around?
What can one offer a Habitual Murderer NOT to reoffend, life in prison?
So then does that make some one that Likes to Murder " Mechanic for Hire " So then " Crime Does Pay " and who are the Payees?