School Closed After Parents Declare ‘Hunting Season’ on 12-Year-Old Transgender Student: ‘A Good Sharp Knife Will Do the Job’
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
A middle school in Achille, Oklahoma is closed following violent threats by parents on social media against Maddie, a 12-year-old transgender student who identifies as female and used the girls’ bathroom.
Maddie had been using the staff bathroom at her old school but used the girls’ bathroom at the new school because she wasn’t sure where the staff bathroom was. She was then accused of peeping under a bathroom stall. Her mother said it was probably because she “leans very far forward to use the bathroom.”
Then the threats began on a private parents’ Facebook group for the school. The parents called Maddie “it” and “thing”, suggested that her genitalia be mutilated to make her female (“a good sharp knife will do the job real quick”). One said it was “hunting season on them kind” and said there was “no bag limit.”
See the screenshots:
Maddie’s mother Brandy Rose said she fears for her life: “These are adults making threats– I don’t understand it. She’s an awesome kid. To see any fear in her, I can’t explain how bad that hurts me for them to hurt her.”
KXII reports : “The sheriff said the mother filed a protective order against one parent but no other arrests have been made, however several agencies including the FBI are stepping in to see if any comments constitute a hate crime.”
UPDATE . Approximately 20 students participated in a protest on Tuesday .
Protestors duct taped their mouths to represent how they wanted to speak using actions and not words. They wore red to stand together in unity.
“We’re not gonna tolerate any threats.”
Sheriff Johnny Christian said Bryan County is working with several agencies including the FBI to see if any comments constitute a hate crime.
He emphasized that a few comments do not represent Achille as a whole, and that many people who commented on Facebook weren’t even from the county.
“Our communities in Bryan County are amazing. They are quiet and take good care of our children. The schools are amazing.”
Police had an area set up for counter-protesters but nobody showed up.
UPDATE II . The school reopened on Wednesday .
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Nice to see conservative parents threatening the life of a 12 year old kid. How typical. And it's very nice to see that someone has doxxed those bigoted and violent conservatives.
More details on the vigil some students held for the transgender girl:
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Hate Trackers has published information on those making the threats.
That is nice doxxing work.
Quite the cast of characters there. Criminals, wife beaters, child abusers, welfare abusers, and dead beats. Nice bunch of Christians
Wow. Threatening a 12 year old is really low but I can't help thinking this is a perfect example of the toxic political climate today. The way this is presented it is a podium for bashing rather than discussing the problem and working toward a solution.
Working toward a solution? The solution is simple, stop harassing, attacking, vilifying and threatening kids regardless of their gender identity. In fact, this should apply to every human no matter what age.
What some conservative Christians want to discuss is how they can still shit on people and threaten them without getting in trouble or being called out for it, and that's simply never going to happen. They're in the wrong, this child and her parents are on the right side of justice and equality. The parents who have lashed out at this kid need to grow up, get over their pointless phobias, and accept that the world has moved on and left the archaic prejudices of poorly educated bigots behind.
Who created this toxic environment?
The problem here seems to be bigoted and violent conservatives who make threats against transgender children. Apart from the FBI's investigation for possible criminal charges, what would you suggest might be the solution? Should all bigoted conservatives be banned from the internet or just the ones with a tendency towards violence?
They had a solution that was working, which was give the child their own bathroom
Trans kids aren't asking for their own bathroom. There was nothing wrong before, until conservatives discovered a new group of people to hate because of their lack of understanding of the situation.
Why do you want to stigmatize and harm a child by doing that?
The bigger problem in need of a solution is the group of irrationally bigoted conservatives who made threats of violence against the girl. Hopefully between the doxxing and the FBI they'll be put away where they can't harm anyone else. And given that they've engaged in computer-related crimes they could be denied access to computers and/or the internet.
Riiiiight.
There are 60+ million conservatives in this country. If this were typical, you would think we'd hear about it more often....because....well.....math.
It seems to be a problem in many school districts when trans kids are outed. Seems like conservative parents are always freaking out and causing a problem.
I wonder if that's because the GOP platform is anti-trans, the GOP presidential moron is anti-trans, and conservative superstitious sects like the Southern Baptists and Assemblies of God are all anti-trans?
It seems that way because it makes the news....because it's rare enough to be newsworthy.
Of the ones who do the freaking out, the majority are undoubtedly conservative. But the trend cannot be extrapolated to tens of millions of people. It's a question of subsets.
Let's try a different example. It's fair to say that the overwhelming majority of people with advanced degrees in "African American Studies" are liberal. It is idiotic to assert that such degrees are "typical" of liberals.
It is fair to state that the majority of Antifa activists are liberal. It is idiotic to state that wearing a mask and committing violent crimes is "typical" of liberals.
I do not understand what goes on in the emotions of people who are so determined to hate those with different views that they are willing to abandon all reason and embrace the idiocy of stating that some villainous characteristic is "typical" of a group of tens of millions of people. The phenomenon is obviously not exclusive to liberals, and it seems extremely deranged when viewed on either side.
Squirrel-------------------------------------->
Most rational people learned enough about trans people in the early 90s talk shows and got over the fears and are now able to let people live their lives instead of injecting their non-existent space fairy's commands into the medical decisions of others.
What other possible explanation could there me for those 62 million conservatives voting for a bigot with an anti-trans agenda? No ethical person would have done so.
Everytime I see this Squirrel comment I think of this,
I refuse to believe your intellectual faculties are so limited as to allow you to imagine only one alternative.
My point exactly. Glad we agree.
It does show that none of those voters see racism, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia, xenophobia, misogyny, sociopathy or corruption as being disqualifying factors for high office. Its speaks volumes about their character, much like the Republicans who voted for KKK leader David Duke because of his economic policies.
Haaha. That is about right. A bunch of criminals making threats.
One of them even has child abuse by injury. Wonder what his peers think about that.
I guess the youth rodeo circuit is a great place for criminal bigots to congregate.
A perfect outing, so to speak.
“We’re not gonna tolerate any threats.”
But it is okay for them to advocate threats against this child. I feel sorry for the children any of these asshats might have. They are doomed to become the next generation of ignorant people raised by parents like that.
Idiots, and once again we see words have consequences. Gotta wonder how many will be fired or otherwise punished because of their comments
If you look at the seed, most of these deadbeats don't even have jobs. They're living off the taxpayer or farm subsidies
Lol good point I missed that
That's just one. Also note the woman who lives on the largesse of her family and taxpayers and is currently trying to get a handle on Scentsy.
Here's another:
Ok...looks like this guy has a job but he's a deadbeat:
Another deadbeat:
Do I need to continue or do you think you should actually read the article now?
well to be honest the information about them being deadbeats seems to come from a site called HATETRACKERS and not from the originally seeded article. I can't say they are not deadbeats as I do not know any of them, but not sure I wish to trust a site called hatetrackers.
With that aside, it's completely reprehensible for the adults to do what they have done. I don't understand trans-genderism because my brain is not wired that way. But I don't have to understand it, all I need to do is accept it. After all, didn't even Jesus say to hate the sin but love the sinner? I can't say if this child is right or wrong but I don't know if that even matters. So far the child has done nothing wrong, cannot say the same about the adults in this story.
You know what...I apologize. I got that info from Skrekk's comments.
Still....that doesn't refute anything I said
Seems like you have serious rage issues. Sad.
Ummmm......the story I seeded links to several updates, one of which includes the Hate Trackers site which doxxed the dumb bigots and reveals that most of them are real losers. By the way the FBI is also investigating whether hate crime charges should be filed against these bigoted conservatives. The few who had jobs likely woke up this morning to learn that they were suddently unemployed.
Here's another update:
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Good to see that the school and the cops are doing the right thing and taking threats to transgender kids seriously. It's also good to see the school superintendent recognize that they might need to learn more about the issue, even though the only thing they seem to have done wrong is to have isolated the girl by having her use a staff restroom.
No need at all to apologize to him - all the information I quoted came from links within the original seed.
On a side note I'm glad to see that even in small town Oklahoma during the profoundly anti-trans and anti-gay Trump era, the cops and the school and most of the community are trying to do the right thing here. I'm somewhat surprised.
Kudos to you for saying that. My brain isn't wired that way either but I suspect it must be a very weird and traumatic experience especially for a kid at puberty.
I did claim that I was getting my information straight from your article when I was actually getting it from your first comment. I didn't do a very good job of differentiating between your article and your comment.
Lol now we have a badtrout and a badfish
I took a shower this morning!
I understand, but the entire content of my first comment was quoted from the first update link to the original seed. The Hate Tracker link was part of that. So it all comes directly from the seed and the several articles they published, ie it wasn't just my opinion.
It wasn't fair of XD to criticize you for that particularly since he clearly didn't even bother to follow the updated articles linked in the seed, but that's why I put it in a comment so people could easily see it.
Thanks for explaining that. I don't look as dumb as I thougt I was
We're good then?
Tell me about it!
Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem since it's in the very first update which is linked in the main seed. I'll help you out:
In that article you'll find this:
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You can lead a conservative to facts but you can't make him think.
"She was then accused of peeping under a bathroom stall. Her mother said it was probably because she “leans very far forward to use the bathroom. ”
WTF ?
Even I, and I'm sure many others.....Can't get that low when sitting on the pot without falling off.
How LOW can YOU go ?
Your point is well taken, however as yet we have no statements from anyone directly involved so we really have no idea what actually occurred in the washroom
Mom.….Helped !
Moms defend their children, it's what moms do.
Yep....although that was an odd defense.
Despicable sad excuses for faux christian human beings, deadbeats on welfare.
No one should be threatening a child.
And anyway, this kid's issues are not his fault. His parents are failing in their duty to teach, guide, and protect him.
The list of decisions we don't allow a child to make is very long. The notion that he can decide he should really be a girl flies in the face of that common sense that we apply to so many other situations.
And regardless, factually, he is male. Peeing is not a social construct. Being male or female is not a social construct. Our culture divides males and females in the bathroom. There's nothing that happens in the bathroom that is impacted by how he "identifies." He is male and should go back to his own bathroom.
Sounds like the girl's mother is doing exactly the right thing, most likely in conjunction with advice from the girl's doctors. Are you suggesting that the mother should instead be acting like a superstitious anti-LGBT bigot and deny her child's gender identity? To do so would dramatically increase the child's risk of suicide. Is that what you want?
What girl?
Sorry, but allowing a 12 year old to make these decisions and chart the proper course is negligent parenting. There is more to being a parent than just creating offspring. Children need guidance and a lot of the time that guidance is contrary to their feelings.
So many people throw the word "bigot" around without understanding what it means. A bigot is someone who is intolerant of someone they disagree with. Having an opinion that is contrary to someone else's doesn't make you a bigot. Stop insulting people just to shut them up.
There's nothing superstitious in what I am saying. Its just biology.
I don't give a shit about his identity. He can play with dolls and wear a dress for all I care. He will remain a boy. That means this way to the boys' restroom.
Actually fucking around with kids and their sex leads to suicide. Read about David Reimer.
He was tortured into suicide by a lunatic doctor named John Money. Don't bother trying to appeal to authority and tell me doctors are telling these parents what to do so I should just accept it. You can always find a dumbass doctor who will do anything for money. In 99% of these cases, the boy simply grows up gay. There is no reason at all to transition him at 12. It's child abuse.
You have no knowledge whatsoever of this child, her mother, or what advice the child's doctors have given. But I can guarantee you that your views aren't supported by any credible or relevant medical organization in the western world.
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LOL. What it reveals is that you're ignorant of the complexities of human development. You seem to be regurgitating the ideology of anti-trans hate groups, pretty much all of which are rooted in rigid Bronze-age superstitions about gender. In fact according to psychiatrists the views that you express on this topic are the primary cause of the stress associated with gender dysphoria in transgender kids.
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LOL. You clearly know nothing about that case since it directly undermines your argument and shows how destructive it is to raise a child contrary to their actual gender identity.
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Once again you reveal how little you know since the current recommended treatment of transgender children is the "Dutch protocol" which calls for early social transition, puberty blockers starting at the onset of puberty, and if appropriate HRT and eventually GRS when the child is old enough to make an informed choice whether to do those things. That protocol results in a normalized suicide attempt rate rather than the 41% rate which your uninformed advice would cause.
Almost everything that you have said is blatantly wrong. John Money proves you wrong because he thought that he could make a girl out of a boy by therapy. David Reimer was born a boy but because of a Drs mistakes at circumcism, he decided to test his theory of a person's gender idenity being malleable. Our gender identity isn't mallable. Maybe you could understand the basics of a story that you seem to think proves your claim but in fact does the very opposite. The parents didn't pay John Money to do what he did, despite your apparent belief. John Money used the Reimer's child as a lab rat to test whether gender idenity is determined by nature or nuture and the patient died because of that immoral action.
You still don't know the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. It is ignornace, that is often based in religious belief that is the problem. Trans people are not the problem.
To be accurate studies show that only 53% do, the other 47% self identify as either lesbian or bisexual
What should her parents have done? Beat her until she told them she feels like a boy inside? Ground her and tell her she's evil if she feels like a girl? Tell her she's "broken" or "mentally disturbed"? Only hateful bigots believing some invisible bigot in the sky is forcing them to hate their child would be capable of such things.
Tell him the truth. You're a boy. Feelings can be complicated for anyone growing up, but that doesn't change what you are. And your parents will be right there to support you throughout the process.
There, see? Proper parenting without all the mean shit you made up in your imagination.
Maybe this boy will grow up to be gay, but he will never be a girl.
People who are transgendered commonly have their incongruent feelings long before they are teenagers. Most have then before they start elementary school. They don't know the term transgendered, but they know that they were supposed to be born with a different gendered body.
Maybe one day you and others will discover the difference between sexual orientation ( the gender of the person who you are attracted to) and your own gender identity(your innate sense of being male or female). Trans people aren't confused on this issue but apparently, you are.
Our DNA doesn't determine if your gender identity is male or female so don't bother making that assinine argument either. Our DNA only determines our physical gender but our physical gender doesn't always agree with our gender identity because if it did then transgendered people would not exist. Trans people obviously do exist and they always have.
Tell me. What does a girl feel like? What does a male feel like? If you are one how do you know you fell like the other?
How would you feel if you woke up tomorrow with a female body and people calling you "she" and "her"? You know that psychologically you are male but your body is female. The stress of living in the wrong gendered body is the situation that transgendered people find themselves in.
No, actually you are. You've been brainwashed to accept a giant pile of bullshit so that you and others can cheer on child abuse as it's happening.
How this boy lives his life is irrelevant to the fact that he is a boy. Therefore: boys restroom.
I think I found the way he would react.
The medical community disagrees with your opinions. Where did you get your degree in either psychology or psychiatry since you claim to be knowledgeable in the subject? Your use of expletives is proof that your argument is weak.
You are only focusing on the physical body and ignoring her psychological gender identity. Please refer to her as female if you respond to me.
It's a very good thing that all doctors who work in this area and a rapidly growing number of parents with transgender kids ignore the completely uninformed views you hold since those views so often result in a dead kid. It's also a very good thing that more and more states and cities are banning anti-transgender quackery.
In fact it would be grossly irresponsible for such a parent to follow the superstitious views you so obviously hold on this topic.
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LOL. You don't even know the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. No wonder you don't have any clue what you;re talking about.
Your lack of evidence and attempts to rely on shaming or insulting people who disagree with you is proof that your argument is weak.
Correct. Bathroom assignments are based on sex, not lifestyle.
You are not the boss of me.
That is not true and you have no proof that it is. I will be waiting a long time for you to prove what "all doctors" think.
Ummmm.......you share the same views as a superstitious Catholic extremist who never practiced in this area and never conducted any peer-reviewed research about transgender folks at all. That's why you cited McHugh, a man whose views are literally from the dark ages and are condemned by the specialists who work with transgender folks. Heck, even his former institution has condemned and rejected his bigoted views. No surprise that he's associated with several anti-gay and anti-trans hate groups like NARTH and the ACP.
Simply put the doctors who treat transgender kids don't share your anti-trans views. If they did they wouldn't work in the field.
You share the same views as a bunch of delusional lunatics. So what?
Given that we've established that your views are coming from anti-trans hate groups like NARTH and the ACP and the superstitious quacks who belong to those hate groups, where does that leave you? Do you think any caring parent of a transgender kid should listen to you if they want their kid to survive into adulthood?
My views come from my own research and the sources I have linked come from actual studies or the Wall Street Journal. Desist from personal attacks where you try to tie me to whatever you think is a hate group.
So far you've only cited anti-trans hate groups and an elderly anti-trans activist who has no relevant academic experience and never worked in this area. And the Wall Street Journal isn't a peer-reviewed academic journal but it is one of the few places which chooses to print op-eds from anti-trans activists like Paul McHugh.
Oh.....you did cite one rather flawed academic study.......but you apparently were unaware that those researchers were also the ones who did the study which demonstrated the success of the "Dutch protocol" in treating transgender kids. That was rather amusing if unwitting on your part.
The lifestyle that is a problem is religious belief. It is not natural and it is not logical.
Transgendered people do not choose to be transgendered and there is no such transgendered lifestyle, despite your wild claims.
Trans woman are not a threat to me or other women.
Shrekk said "all doctors who work in this area"
Not all doctors period.
It's like the sexual orientation argument. I don't choose to live as a woman...I am a woman. I have no desire to be a man. I love men. I have no desire to have sex with a woman.
I don't understand what people don't understand about this.
The only claim I have made about lifestyle is the truth. This story is about a boy who pretends to be a girl.
Trans women are men pretending to be women.
In the real world of real scientists, intelligent, educated people disagree with each other. But in your world, if someone disagrees with you, they're either ignorant, bigoted, or evil. You can't have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you without dehumanizing the person you're talking to.
Any study has flaws. That doesn't necessarily invalidate findings or conclusions. I'm waiting for you to offer a substantive rebuttal to my core proposition, which is that boys should be allowed to grow up to be boys and not encouraged to pretend to be girls. Simply attacking me or making empty claims that my sources are invalid is not an argument.
First off Tacos - episette made that comment not me - I agree with her though.
You seem to be pretty unglued here because we don't agree with your ignorance and nonsense and your citations of ignorant and bigoted bogus scientific claims.
You've cited nothing from the 'the real world of real scientists, and/or intelligent educated people' whatsoever.
Once again, you still do not understand gender identity, but it's a waste of time to try to teach you anything. You only look at the physical gender body and ignore half of the information.
biological sex is not the same as gender identity - they are completely separate things which align for most people but not everyone.
In fact they are considered a hate group. Here's the citation (with much more detail at the link):
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In contrast to the 66,000 medical professionals in the AAP, the 200 or so bible-babbling bigots in the ACP don't actually conduct or sponsor any peer-reviewed research whatsoever. They're just a superstition-based anti-LGBT hate group like NARTH, the FRC or the AFA whose intent is to mislead gullible and uninformed bigots.
By the way the NARTH hate group was founded in a similar manner in reaction to the APA's 1973 de-listing of homosexuality as a mental illness. It must be a very common thing for bigoted bible-babblers to form their own groups when the science no longer supports their loony superstitions.
More details here:
The only academic study you cited had some rather serious flaws which actually did invalidate its conclusions.....or at least completely invalidated the purposes for which hate groups cite it (you linked to it from a known anti-trans hate group). These two analyses reveal the fundamental problems in that study:
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You obviously hold some rather uninformed anti-trans views given that statement and your repeated citation of "info" from anti-trans hate groups and discredited anti-trans activists like McHugh. No one actually working in this field supports your superstitious anti-trans views and no legitimate medical organization supports them either.
The ironic part is that the academic study you unwittingly cited was authored by the very same group of Dutch researchers who determined that the current "best practices" methodology for treating these kids, the Dutch protocol, is extremely effective at normalizing the suicide rates of transgender folks and helping them achieve a good quality of life. You might want to learn about it before you make more unwittingly ironic citations.
You can check out the entirety of this study at the following link. I just included the section about transgenders and bathroom facilities and the stress they face on a daily basis relating to discrimination, etc.
Introduction
The United States is experiencing widespread political debate on transgender † and gender nonconforming (TGNC) youths' use of public facilities, such as bathrooms and locker rooms, in accordance with their gender identity. In May 2016, after several court cases had developed and several states had attempted to create laws restricting transgender student's bathroom use, agencies of the Obama Administration issued a directive instructing public schools across the country to allow transgender students to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity. 1 , 2 Jointly, the U.S. Department of Education (DOE) and the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) clarified that the civil rights of transgender school students are protected under Title IX (of the Education Amendments of 1972), which prohibits sex discrimination. In the weeks that followed, 11 states sued the federal government over the directive. 3 Meanwhile, North Carolina had passed into law House Bill 2, which required all people to use public bathrooms in accordance with their sex assigned at birth, regardless of their gender identity or physical presentation 4 and the DOJ sued that state to overturn the law. Many other states have proposed legislation and continue to hold public debates on the issue. In January 2017, the Trump Administration's DOJ and DOE rescinded the previous guidance on and federal support for transgender students, indicating they would not pursue federal enforcement of title IX violations. As these political debates continue and laws are proposed, it is crucial to understand the impact on the health and well-being of transgender youth, who must navigate the impact of these policies in the context of well-documented and widespread victimization from peers and others in their daily lives due to their gender identity and expression. 5
Proponents of laws and policies restricting public facility use to correspond with sex assigned at birth claim to protect individuals from violence or indiscretion by perpetrators if transgender people are allowed to use facilities according to their gender identity. Yet, major national antiviolence organizations have disputed these scenarios as a myth, and suggest that forcing transgender people into facilities that do not align with their gender places them at increased risk for experiencing harm. 6
Data collected from adults indicate that the majority of transgender people are fearful of using public facilities, according to the 2015 National Transgender Survey of more than 28,000 transgender people age 18 years and older, collected in 2015 before the introduction of most bathroom bills. 7 In this survey, 59% of respondents reported avoiding using public restroom facilities in the past year because they were afraid of confrontations, with 12% experiencing verbal harassment and 1% reporting being the victim of physical or sexual assault in a public restroom. 7 In one of the few studies with youth, the 2015 National School Climate Survey found that 39% of students said they avoided gender segregated spaces because they felt uncomfortable or unsafe due to their gender presentation, and 60% of transgender students reported they were forced to use a facility that matched their sex assigned at birth instead of one that aligned with their gender identity. 5 There are scarce data from the perspective of school-age transgender youth for whom public facilities use policies and debate may have a daily effect.
In general, the relationship between marginalization and mental health sequelae in gender minority populations is well documented. In one community-based sample of transgender people age 18–72 years ( n =412), 44% reported clinically significant symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which were both independently and significantly associated with higher everyday discrimination scores as well as greater number of reasons for discrimination. 8 Another study of 216 transgender young women aged 16–24 years found that youth who reported higher exposure to transgender-based discrimination had almost three times the odds of PTSD compared to those with lower exposure and eight times higher odds of stress related to thoughts of suicide. 9 Earlier studies have documented mental health outcomes of experiences in public facilities among transgender adults, with individuals who have been denied access to a public facility being 1.45 times as likely to have attempted suicide than those who had not been denied. Seelman found that denial of access to bathrooms or gender appropriate housing was significantly related to suicidality. 10
The gender minority stress model provides an important perspective for the relationship between experiences of discrimination and mental health disparities among transgender individuals. 11 , 12 The model suggests that proximal and distal stressors resulting from experiences of discrimination and victimization have a direct and negative impact on psychological health outcomes, whereas resilience factors can act as mediators to improve psychological well-being in the face of minority stress. For example, previous mixed-methods research with adults navigating gendered public facilities did not measure mental health outcomes, but found that proximal and distal minority stressors impacted functioning at work or school and participants described the negative psychological impact of stigmatization and consistent challenges to their identity. 13 Given that transgender youth are now at the center of a highly public debate regarding their identity and how it relates to their access to public facilities, a space where transgender youth are already reporting high rates of discrimination and bullying, 5 research with transgender youth to explore stress and resilience in relationship to public facilities is timely and important.
In this mixed methods study, we surveyed TGNC youth to examine how school bathroom experiences might be associated with psychological well-being. We also recruited TGNC youth to participate in focus groups to learn about their reactions to the bathroom debates described above and understand in more detail their experiences related to bathroom and locker room use in school. We collected both sets of data in an urban area of a Midwestern state during June 2016. The timing of the study allowed us to assess individuals targeted by legal and policy conflicts about gender identity and sex assigned at birth as these events were unfolding. The survey component of the study is presented first, followed by the focus group component. Discussion of both aspects of the study concludes the article.
That's a good study, thanks! Here's a corrected link (it must be on a unix server):
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Removed for context
I'm sure life is difficult for these people. I never said it wasn't, did I?
And you seem determined to make it more difficult.
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Just the opposite, in fact.
Removed for context
Actually the research shows that the anti-trans views you espouse and the misgendering in which you engage are the primary stressors which dramatically elevates the suicide rate of transgender folks and degrades their quality of life. For example:
I don't know what anti-trans views you imagine I have.
I call a thing what it is.
I'm all for supportive parents. That doesn't necessarily mean taking action that you think is a good idea.
The kid's mother and the school aren't acting in a vacuum or acting out of Bronze-age superstition as you would prefer, they're following the advice of the kid's medical specialists.
You are not accurately or honestly discussing the situation because you willfully ignore the core issue of being transgendered and that is their psychological gender identity is incongruent with their physical gender. You logically cannot ignore a person's psychological gender identity and then claim to discuss the facts of being transgendered. It just isn't possible.
Your arguments are more in line with transvestism when you ignore psychological gender identity because their incongruent gender identity/physical gender doesn't line up with your very conservative beliefs.
Do you also want to try to discuss evolution and then deny that DNA exists?
If they think they are not what their biology says they are they are delusional and mentally ill. There have been people that have thought they were cats. Should we just pat them on the head and call them Fluffy?
It's also very revealing that all his citations came from hate groups and anti-LGBT activists. It's like citing Stormfront as a credible resource and then claiming not to be a racist.
1.) Transgendered people don't think that they are a different person or even a different species. Part of the extensive psychological counseling process before hormones are administered is testing for any other mental health problems that might be masked by gender identity emotion. A potential trans' person doesn't go to the Dr., talk to them for 30 minutes and walk out with a 90-day 'script for hormones. The counseling process is anywhere from 1 hour every 2 weeks for 8-12 weeks for adults, to 6 months for teens and even longer for pre-teens. This evaluation phase is not taken lightly by any of the specialists in the process.
2.) If the transgendered person were truly delusional then medication for delusions would treat the problem, but obviously it doesn't. Did you ever consider that possiblity before you made that claim?
1.) Trans people are not things!
2.) You cannot willfully misgender a person and then claim that you are supportive of trans people. Once again you are intellectually dishonest. You want to claim that black is white, white is black and everyone who doesn't see it your way is colorblind.
Exactly correct.
Yes, it has. The patient got sick because of the wrong medication.
The formal psychological term for what Tacos is doing is gaslighting.
One unknown "patient" who may or may not just been allergic and a opinion piece from a pro trans website. Your going to have to do better than that.
There is no such thing as a pro-transgendered website, unless the American Cancer Assoc' is a pro-cancer website. There is no valid medical reason to give a potentially transgendered person an anti-psychotic medication because they aren't psychotic.
What is it about gender identity that bothers you so much? Do you not understand that that the psychological gender of the brain can be incongruent with the body's gender, or does it scare you because human sexuality is not as simple as you want it to be? Do you hate trans' women because on some level you are attracted to them? Maybe you don't understand how they can exist, so you hate what you don't understand and what scares you. It's possible that you have some gender feelings yourself and you don't want to deal with them because the situation terrifies you.
I was not attempting to dehumanize anyone. You can relax.
Yeah, well, I just did. If I have a friend who's a drug addict, I can call him a drug addict and still support him and try to help. Supporting someone does not mean I have to go along with everything they say, do, or want. Life is a little more nuanced than you are comfortable with, I guess.
What a surprise. Now you're a victim.
No one is abusing you and your ability to make judgments has not changed.
Because some things are actually dependent on the physical gender and psychological identity issues (while fascinating) are irrelevant. Some examples: 1) athletics 2) reproduction 3) how you pee 4) how much getting kicked in the crotch hurts.
What a scene that would be. Kick some trans "woman" in the nuts and dare him to stand there and declare "It doesn't hurt because I identify as female!" Yeah, good luck with that.
You logically cannot discuss transgendered female or gender identity if you ignore the concept of psychological gender identity because what you are talking about is transvestism, which are not in any way alike psychologically. The drives of a drag queen are not the same as a trans woman, just as a drag king and a transman are not alike.
Kicking a CIS woman in the crotch is similarly painful, despite your obvious ignorance. If you intentionally kick or hit someone of either gender or gender identity, I hope that someone retaliates you to the point where you cant walk, talk or breathe without mechanical assistance because your idea is a hate crime.
When do you plan to understand the definitional nuance between transgendered and transvestite?
LOL. I suspect you've got that one exactly backwards, particularly given how much bigoted conservatives whined due to the idiotic Texas state policy which requires transgender male wrestlers to compete against cisgender women. I suggest you google Mack Beggs , the kid who won the state competition 2 years in a row.
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Why would anyone other than the transgender person care about those items? They're no one else's business anyway.
Nope. I know what I mean. And the Texas law is poorly written. The goal should be to avoid unfair physical advantages and their law doesn't do that as it's currently crafted.
I gave a list of examples. Not all are pertinent to the discussion beyond the main point of the comment. The peeing one is, though. Like it or not, our bathrooms are segregated by sex. Gender dysphoria doesn't change sex.
No it is not. Not even close.
Is that lunacy or sarcasm? I'm not advocating actually kicking someone, for God's sake.
Actually it would be more accurate to say that they're segregated by gender expression. Where do you think transgender folks have been peeing & pooping in the 100 years or so since gender-segregated public restrooms became a thing? They go potty where they're least likely to be assaulted by bigoted morons, ie the restroom which best conforms to their gender expression.
Heck, in the Jim Crow south it was usually just the whites-only restroom which was gender-segregated. That's one reason why there seems to be such a close tie between social conservative outrage on the current issue and the historic social conservative support for racially segregated restrooms. Same bogus memes too about imaginary threats of sexual assault, and the same faux concern about women (or at least cisgender white women).
Gee I never really thought about it, I guess I just assumed they held it till they got home.
right ?
In fact that's what some of these school kids do so they end up with all sorts of medical problems as a result.
No it wouldn't. No one who ever built a men's room or a ladies room or passed a law requiring it was thinking about "gender expression." Not one. I am totally confident of it. Bathrooms are segregated by sex. Period. End of story.
I don't think much about where anybody pees. That's how it should be. If your behavior draws attention to you then you're asking for a problem. Like it or not, people are sensitive about weirdos in the bathroom. You can be as activist as you wanna be, but if you can't open your mind to the concerns of the rest of the world, then you're just as insensitive and closed-minded as anyone you accuse of bigotry.
Stop with the moving the goalposts. I never said that get kicked in the crotch is more painful than childbirth, but it is very painful.
Why did you bring this idea up if you were not endorsing harming transgender people by physical violence?
You said the pain from getting kicked in the crotch was similar for a woman to what a man feels. It's not. The video is to show you that they had to aim electric shock at women's ovaries to simulate the pain of being kicked in the nuts. What a man feels getting kicked in the crotch is orders of magnitude greater than what a woman would feel. All the gender dysphoria in the world won't change that.
To demonstrate that there are some things you can't "identify" away. Just read a little slower, I guess. There's nothing in anything I wrote that suggests anyone should be a victim of violence.
I would say Epistte is fantasizing about kicking YOU in the crotch right now!
No, I'm not. I'm thinking more along the lines of the Baker Act, psych meds, and mandatory intensive education.
deleted
In the Jim Crow states the public restrooms were segregated by race and usually just the whites-only restrooms were additionally segregated by gender. So apparently gender segregation wasn't really all that important, or at least not nearly as important as racial segregation and not important at all unless you were one of those psychologically fragile white folks. No surprise that those are the very same bigoted states which have freaked out once again and passed potty laws. The same sort of bigoted bible-babblers are once again involved in passing those laws and they're recycling the exact same moronic and detestable arguments.
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Good news! All the transgender folks whom you consider "weirdos" are going to be using a stall so you're free to wave your dick around in the restroom and only have cisgender folks stare at you.
The only weirdos that I see are people in public bathrooms wondering if other genitals match their gender expression instead of peeing, washing your hands and politely leaving.
It's funny that some of these bigoted bible-babblers have actually been harassing and assaulting people who are trying to use the restroom at Target and other businesses. The bible-babblers always seem surprised that the cops get called on them rather than on their victims.
In the minds of Bible babblers, the cops have now become the enforcers of conservative social order, despite also having to make time to hand out bogus speeding tickets and fines to those dangerous people who insist on jaywalking.
What did I say this time to get inked?
I don't approve of threatening a child, which of course is reprehensible. But the left should realize as long as this transgender craze keeps going on and they try to force everyone to accept their personal belief that gender is fluid then sadly more things like this will happen. If the left is intolerant in forcing others in forcing this issue on them then things will not improve.
Let's replace the minority you mention with another minority group and see how it reads:
"the left should realize as long as this interracial marriage craze keeps going on and they try to force everyone to accept their personal belief that interracial marriages are okay then sadly more things like this will happen."
No one is forcing you to be transgender, just like no one was forced to get interracially married, but to blame them for the attacks by small minded bigots is simply ridiculous. Progressives and liberals fought the bans on interracial marriage and won, fought the bans on gay marriage and won, now they are fighting for transgender rights and they'll win because they aren't forcing anyone to do anything. They are simply asking not to be attacked for being who they are.
Was it Matthew Shepherds fault for getting murdered and hung on a barbed wire fence? Does that excuse those who murdered him, because he shouldn't have been gay so as to not "rock the boat"?
I do realize things like this will continue to happen, not because anyone is being forced to do anything, but because small minded bigots exist and have been welcomed and even encouraged by right wing conservative Republicans who believe they should be allowed to force their beliefs on everyone else. It's the bigots trying to say transgender persons shouldn't be accepted in society, not transgender persons trying to force anyone else to be transgender.
No one is forcing you to be gay, no one is forcing you to get gay married, no one is forcing you to be transgender, no one is forcing you to marry out of your ethnicity. All anyone is asking is to treat others who do make those choices for themselves the same as you would like to be treated. I know it's hard, especially for many conservative Christians, to follow the golden rule and treat others as they wish to be treated, but it really is that simple. No "forcing" necessary.
No one is forcing me to do anything? Oh, that's a relief. For a second I thought liberals in the fascist state of California were forcing people to address transgenders by their preferred pronoun or face fines and jail time. I'm sure glad nobody is forcing me to abandon my right to free speech.
I live in California and haven't heard of any such laws. I have several transgender clients and I always treat them the way I would like to be treated, that's all. Not sure why this is so hard for some to understand, it's not very complicated. So no, your free speech is not under attack, but remember, free speech isn't consequence free. If you belittle, demean and insult transgender persons, expect others to treat you in the same fashion because that's obviously the way you wish to be treated.
What pronoun do you refer to transgendered adults and teens with?
Deleted - labeling
That is very intelligent of you. Do you have similar names for gay and bi teens and adults?
"This bill would enact the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Long-Term Care Facility Residents’ Bill of Rights. Among other things, the bill would make it unlawful, except as specified, for any long-term care facility to take specified actions wholly or partially on the basis of a person’s actual or perceived sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, or human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) status, including, among others, willfully and repeatedly failing to use a resident’s preferred name or pronouns after being clearly informed of the preferred name or pronouns, or denying admission to a long-term care facility, transferring or refusing to transfer a resident within a facility or to another facility, or discharging or evicting a resident from a facility."
No wonder I had never heard of it, because it only applies to State funded long term care facilities and the penalty for being a huge prick to elderly and disabled patients/residents is a misdemeanor fine so your claim of "jail time" was just another lie.
You're really reaching if you believe that to be a violation of free speech. Not being able to collect your government paycheck or being fined after insulting and demeaning those in your care should apply in every State.
No, that is not "another lie":
"In California a misdemeanor is defined as a crime for which the maximum sentence is no more than one year in county jail. A misdemeanor is more serious than an infraction but less serious than a California felony.
California misdemeanors fall into two basic categories:
“Standard” California misdemeanors, punishable by up to 6 months in jail and/or a fine of up to $1,000;[1] and
“Gross” or “aggravated” misdemeanors,” punishable by up to 364 days in jail and/or a fine of up to $1,000 or more.[2]"
Refusing to play along with somebody's delusion is not being a "prick" and the 1A applies to EVERYONE, including healthcare workers. If an employer wants to fire someone for not playing the pronoun game, that's legal. Using criminal law to penalize someone is not. This law would never stand up to a serious challenge.
Sounds like that law is designed to prevent abuse of elderly or disabled LGBT folks by bigoted bible-babbling morons who work in health care. That's a very good thing since it's been a rather common problem.
Well if I were a dumb ass I might go to the general definition of misdemeanor, but since i'm not I'll go directly to the proposed law itself which says "The bill would require a violation of these provisions to be treated as a violation under the Long-Term Care, Health, Safety, and Security Act of 1973, the California Residential Care Facilities for the Elderly Act, or specified provisions providing for the licensure and regulation of health facilities, which may include the imposition of civil penalties."
I trust you know the difference between "civil" and "criminal" penalties?
If I were a dumbass I would pretend that "may include civil penalties" wouldnt be aimed at the health care provider in addition to possible jail time for the worker. There are only two types of misdemeanors, both of which allow for jail time- as I pointed out.
So you're okay with punishing people by law for using the non approved pronoun and mandating they deny basic reality? Welcome to 1984 then. Totalitarian dictators everywhere would be proud.
If you look at the bill it applies only to those who work in long-term care facilities.
So....you're safe to continue to belittle transgenders in the State of California...unless you work in a long-term care facility. And if you do, I suggest you find another job
No one will EVER spend a night in jail because of this proposed law. You have created a straw man argument so have fun burning it on your own, it's total bullshit and you know it.
You mean I'm safe not to be forced to bow down to the far left and have to deny reality or be punished. Fortunately for me I don't live in the People's Democratic Republic of North Kalifornia.
Even if someone never went to jail- and that's no guarantee- the fact that someone would be fined for refusing to lie and kowtow is bad enough. That law is blatantly unconstitutional.
Oh, please. Get over yourself. Go say anything you want to to anyone. I'll even get you a band aid after you're done
Yes, I'm OK with punishing health care workers who psychologically abuse and demean their patients or otherwise engage in malpractice. Such folks should be promptly fired and never work in health care again, and any civil penalties the law can provide will help minimize the occurrence of such abusive behavior.
That kind of abusive behavior belongs in a church not in a health care setting.
Calling someone by their biological gender isn't abuse. Forcing someone to bow down to someone else's twisted view of reality is.
The misgendering which you advocate be done to trans folks is abusive and harmful and it's condemned by all relevant medical organizations. Soon it will be illegal for health care workers in CA to commit that kind of abuse.
So it looks like you'll have to change professions. Maybe you could work for one of the anti-LGBT hate groups?
You're free not to learn anything about the issue and you're free not to "accept" that such minorities exist but you can't threaten them with harm nor can schools treat them in a stigmatizing and harmful manner. Nor can you credibly blame the victims of irrational persecution for their own persecution as you foolishly tried to do.
So while there's been a temporary setback on these issues due to the bigotry of the Trump regime, in the end you and those like you have lost.
Actually what will most likely happen is these "transgender" kids will grow up and out of this phase and realize the damage their parents and "doctors" have done to them. Then the real psychological damage will begin. But "you and those like you" won't be there to pick up those pieces, will you? You'll just have moved on to some other liberal cause leaving all that wreckage behind you.
Transgender kids aren't in a "phase", they're just trying to get through life without being harassed or killed by dimwitted bigots.
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Sorry but a number of credible studies have proven that it's actually the dimwitted bigots who are the underlying cause of any psychological harm to transgender folks. This particular kid is lucky that her mother apparently understands the issue and is doing the right thing rather than contributing to the kind of harm you seem to want to cause. This is from the study cited up thread:
In other words, you're part of the problem not part of the solution.
The only damage is coming from bigots and worthless pieces of filth who think they should be allowed to threaten children who they are ideologically opposed to.
The only reason there is a higher rate of suicide among gay and transgender teens is because of the hate and vitriol they receive at the hands of petty vile supposed religious conservatives who attack, malign and ridicule them for simply being who they are. These so-called "religious conservatives" don't even follow their own faith that commands them to treat others as they wish to be treated. They are also supposed to follow the example of Christ who when struck and spat on by some religious conservatives of his time, turned the other cheek instead of lashing out or talking about "good sharp knives" or "hunting season". It would appear that this 12 year old and her parents are far more Christ-like than any of the faux Christians who are attacking them.
Where is the evidence to support that claim? What damage do parents do to trans children and teens?
It's not like parents who haul their kids off to church for brainwashing and being the sex toy for a pedo' priest/minister once a week.
"The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.
Conclusions
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."
First, we're not discussing surgical sex reassignment. Second, the link you provide isn't recommending forcing transgender persons to accept their birth gender, they simply said surgical sex reassignment "may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group".
So you have proved nothing with this link, the study was not simply of transgender persons as is being discussed in this seed. And as I said, the increased rates of suicide among transgender and gay persons are almost entirely the fault of the ridicule and malignant hateful attacks they receive at the hands of worthless bigots who apparently are unable to treat others as they would like to be treated.
Your own statement says that people aren't getting sufficient care after GRS, but it does not say that gender identity is a psychotic delusion or that the surgery is wrong. The people who get the surgery are better off than people who don't, but even they are not getting sufficient post-operative care so the solution is more and better support care post-operatively.
Many trans have PTSD because of abuse and neglect, but that is often not being addressed properly. It is so common that it is expected as part of the transgendered diagnosis.
You are correct that they shouldn't be threatened, but you are also diminishing the burden that is being put on society. There's more to it than simply a choice to learn and accept minorities. You are asking all of society to adjust their lives so that people who are delusional about what they are can live out a fantasy. That's just not a reasonable request.
How are you or anyone else being forced to adjust your lives because trans people exist? What have you personally been forced to change? Were you forced to sign a pink petition or were you threatened with jail if you misgendered someone?
First, Who's to say these folks are as you put it,"are delusional about what they are can live out a fantasy" ? Them ? After all its their life, or us ?
For example, your dilution may be my reality.
Then why not somewhat adapt our society ?.. (as you put it.)
We "ask society to adjust" to all kinds of groups of individuals with needs. (this is a few quick possible examples) The blind take their dogs everywhere, people in wheelchairs have ramps and parking spaces most everywhere in our society, we adapt, many people live in fear and have weapons as an adaptation to others in society, our whole judicial system is an adaptation to adjusting lives so others can life as we do in America and we've adapted.
Adaptation and change is normal. The world never stops changing. Everyday.
PS: IMO: Reasonable request is also a judgment call the most "adjusting I do is say "Hi" or "Hello" and walk on". ...
So, "Hi"
kidding. Thanks if ya read this
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On the other hand if "delusional people" are what most of us consider truly delusional and dangerous to them selves or others then buy all means call the law.
Life in the modern world must be very difficult for you. Things were so much easier when women, LGBT folks and racial minorities knew their place, eh?
By the way, please cite exactly what "adjustments" you've needed to make in your life due to the fact that transgender folks exist and are out loose roaming around in society.
( deleted )
Girls, who value their dignity and privacy, are being forced to expose themselves and also be exposed to a boy. They don't wish to be. If a boy who doesn't claim to identify as a girl exposes himself in a restroom to a girl, it's a crime. You want to force this crime on young girls because you think it means you're smart. ( deleted )
Those are all nice things we do for people who can't function otherwise. There is nothing preventing the boy in this story from using the boys' bathroom. Nothing! And there is no reason for him not to because he is a biological boy.
"many people live in fear and have weapons as an adaptation to others in society, our whole judicial system is an adaptation to adjusting lives so others can life as we do in America and we've adapted."
I disagree.
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There is nothing preventing the boy in this story from using the boys' bathroom.
Evidently, the boy's brain disagrees.
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I do agree in our society at this time this boy and others have not reached "Normal" status.
Will they ever reach that level of equality in numbers of the population, doubtful, Many more people are born believing their body matches their mind and I also doubt that ever changes.
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IMO: If the kid really believes it, why screw them up constantly by insisting him or her dont know their own insides. How do we know their insides but say they don't ? I know what and who I Am. I figure others do as well , And I knew Young !! LOL
Did anyone ever remind you that there are stalls in the ladies bathrooms? We don't parade around like its a Victorias Secret fashion show, despite your apparent fantasies.
No one is exposing themselves in the restroom. More nonsense and ignorance on your part.
Seems to me that many on the right think that a public bathroom is a place to get laid.
bathrooms are separated based upon gender and not biological sex - do some research. if you'd rather skip the research then ask yourself - which functions of relieving yourself of bodily waste can you perform in the Men's bathroom but not the Women's bathroom (or vice versa) and that should reveal that we don't separate bathrooms based upon biological sex.
it also seems many of the conservative minded check out everyone's genitals while in the restroom - or expect everyone to expose their genitals for "inspection" by everyone else in the restroom. I guess they don't realize there is privacy - even in the restroom. Maybe they are hoping to get jobs as "Genital Inspectors" so they can ensure only the "right" genitals are allowed in a public restroom ?
LOL yep, I was wondering that as well..
How about you do the research and present your findings to support your claim? It's not my job to make your argument for you. Up until a few years ago, the words "sex" and "gender" were used interchangeably. The notion that gender is a social construct is an invention of the social sciences, not biology. In my opinion, what people really mean is "culture."
You clearly have not spent a lot of time in boys bathrooms. I have two words for you: "Target Practice." Boys will be boys.
You might be thinking that bathroom stalls are private, but many places have taken the doors off the stalls to discourage illicit behavior like sex or drug use.
In many schools around the country, those stalls have no doors.
"Did anyone ever remind you that there are stalls in the ladies bathrooms?"
This goes far beyond ladies rooms. This includes or will include everything from locker rooms, showers, prisons, sports including the Olympics, child custody cases and the govt intrusion into parents rights to raise their children. Bathrooms are the tip of the iceberg.
Get ready for trans "women" dominating female sports (sorry for all the cis or "real" women) and parents having their kids taken because little Johnny can't parade around in a dress and mascara when he's four.
If the kid shows signs of gender dysphoria and the parents deny that child care then the child needs to be removed from the home so they get the care that is medically necessary. Why do you have a problem with this issue? Do you feel threatened because you don't understand the issue, or maybe you also harbor some bi-gendered feelings yourself?
If they have the athletic ability and are on HRT then more power to them.
Do you know the difference between transgendered and transvestite?
What are you doing looking in the stalls?
No I haven't.
You're getting increasingly
here - chill!
Did you mean to ask me if I have stopped beating my wife? Seriously, what is the deal? Why would you post such an offensive attack? Respond to the content of my comments.
Yes languages evolve always have and always will. If they didn't we'd still be using the term Thee a lot and the word faggot would still be an abusive term for old widowed women
I'm just reporting on reality. You might think young boys going to the bathroom and are all well-mannered, private, and discreet. Many are not.
Anybody who would put a physically healthy child on unnecessary hormones for a mental disorder and urge them to carry out their delusional behavior is a child abuser and an enabler. They are physically and psychologically scarring that child for life. I can't wait for these kids to mature and sue the hell out of the parents, doctors, judges and politicians that deprived them of a healthy childhood.
You are one of many people who do not consider mental health to be important because the problem isn't visual. It is people like you who are abusing others when you seek to deny them care for what you feel to be not important or what you do not comprehend. Ignoring someone's mental health is deadly and the person often dies by a drug addiction trying to cover up the problem or by suicide because they don't want to live in their current state. Before you attempt to go around pontificating, diagnosing and treating people you might want to educate yourself on the basics of mental health. To do otherwise is quackery.
What scars people for life is forcing them to live as the opposite gender when there are obvious untreated symptoms of a gender disorder. That healthy childhood can only come about if their gender disorder is properly addressed by medical means and not by either denial or prayer.
You are the one that is obsessed with bathrooms and brought up the fact that some bathroom stalls have no doors. Apparently, you think that people look in or maybe you have looked in yourself.
When do you plan to accept the basic concept that a trans female is not psychologically male, despite her DNA or physical genitalia? This is a critical core concpet. If the person has males drives then they are not a transgendered female. It seems that you do not understand the gender identity difference between a transvestite and somone who is trangedered.
Which restroom do you want to force these folks to use and why?
Some parents care whether their kid survives to adulthood. You obviously don't.
Some parents care that a small child who isn't yet potty trained and can't make any decisions for him or herself isn't allowed to decided his or her own gender for life. Some parents indulge the whims of their kids so much they cause them massive problems later in adulthood. Obviously you don't care about that and think every three year old should be allowed to make any decision no matter what the consequences.
Yeah, I like how you pick people who are able to afford massive cosmetic surgery to make their fantasies come to life. Most trans can't afford that. Saying that those are the average trans people is like saying somebody on welfare should go out about adopt twenty kids from all over the world because Mia Farrow and Angelina Jolie did.
Good lord is that ever a clueless and ignorant comment. What exactly do you imagine happens when a prepubescent trans kid socially transitions?
ROFLMAO
"Cosmetic surgery" has nothing to do with the appearance of any of those folks. And just to mix it up a bit, at least one of them is cisgender and at least one of them is transgender. So which restroom do you want to assign to each so that conservatives won't harass or assault them? Make your choices and then I'll tell you the rest of the very relevant story.
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2.
3.
1.) Most kids are potty trained by the age of two so apparently, you were a very late bloomer. Pull-ups or Depends?
2.) The child doesn't make the final decision. The child's gender discomfort only starts the process of having them seen by a pediatric psychologist. Gender hormones seldom happen before the age of 12 and surgery is often after 16-18.
I think the cross-sex hormone replacement therapy wouldn't usually start before 15 or 16 but the fully reversible puberty blockers would ideally start at the onset of puberty, so that could be as young as 9 in some cases. It would all depend on the individual.
The biggest treatment change in the past few years seems to be the effort to avoid the trauma caused by stigmatization, bullying and discordant gender treatment - including the trauma and permanent changes caused by a discordant puberty.
And you keep doing it.
I have not been arguing that. I have been arguing that he is biologically male. The boy's brain issues do not change his sexual hardware or the way he pees. We protect children (and adults, by the way) from having to be exposed to naked members of the opposite sex and from having to expose themselves to members of the opposite sex. Bathrooms and locker rooms are segregated by sex. His psychological or brain issues do not concern me.
1.)Women's bathrooms have stalls so we don't see each others nude body. It is irrelevant how a person pees in a stall, despite your obsession. Maybe we should adopt unisex bathrooms and you will lose your mind.
2.) Women use a towel or a robe in a locker room, so you also do not see our nude bodies.
3.) You are the one with the problem. Kindly mind your own business and deal with your problem privately.
Your replies are increasingly unhinged
Are you accusing me of something?
I find your hypocrisy amusing. From your 8.1.18 :
Have fun looking in the mirror. Apparently, the formal psychological term for what epistte is doing is gaslighting.
Women have been getting on and off the toilet in front of me my whole life and I never saw nothing. Of course, I was not gaping at them tryiing to sneak a peek either. Who gets titillated by seeing someone else pissing or pooping anyway? I just do not get it. Besides, doesn't every woman know how to drop trousers or lift a skirt and sit down without flashing bystanders? I guess if someone was intently staring at close range they might get a quick glimpse of panties or possibly some public hair but it not like anyone is getting a gynecological examination with their legs spread wide open under bright lights with a dilator. The hysteria of some regarding this issue is truly comical. Puritanism Lives...
That's what hoop skirts are for. Seriously.
Women might. Girls, I'm sure it varies. Boys, unlikely.
Are any of them in the 6th grade?
Once again you miss the core issue of gender identity. Transgendered females are not boys. They view themselves as females and have very female drives. The entire goal of gender identity treatment is to align the outside with what she already feels inside. They are not teaching trans females to be girls because they already are girls emotionally.
Transgendered females are not psychologically boys who are trying to dress like girls. Those people are transvestites. When exactly do you plan to comprehend and embrace that critical difference that has been explained to you over and over? Transgendered=/= transvestite.
The transgender one(s) were, and I know for a fact that they used the restroom at school which corresponded to their gender identity rather than the discordant restroom you want to force them to use.
So do you want to give us your selection of the appropriate seating assignments for those photos?
Medical citation on this?
Sounds like you need to learn the very basics about the topic. ( Deleted ) Otherwise most schools outside of the confederate states and the bible-babble-belt do teach about gender identity these days.
That is the psychological definition of gender identity. These people were born with a psychological gender identity that doesn't match their body's physical gender. The male and female brains are physically different, just as the brains of homosexuals/lesbians are physically different from their heterosexual counterparts. This difference is determined well before birth (the current research suggests sometime after 10 weeks of gestation and of an unknown origin) and it cannot be changed, even with surgery. Not all transgendered people are heterosexual in their gender identity so that is another issue. They can be gay/lesbian, bisexual or even celibate, usually because the hormones suppress any sex drive.
If the person has a gender identity that alligns with their body's gender but just has a compulsion for various reasons to dress or act as the opposte gender on occasion they are transvestites and not transgendered.
The solution to the gender identity problem, since the gender of the brain cannot be changed, is to align the gender of the body, as much as medically possible, to align with the psychological gender identity of the brain. The physical change is done with hormones/androgen blockers and then various surgeries. The transition is helped along with psychological counseling and testing to help the person transition as seamlessly and painlessly as possible, to help them understand the situation and to deal with any psychological trauma that might have a occured previously.
By which you mean "participate in your fantasy".
Ahhh lovely. Unhinged personal attacks.
As it happens...not old, not educated in Texas, but majored in math and have a graduate degree. Both of which prevent me from accepting unsubstantiated claims. I notice you were unable to provide citation. I presume that will be forthcoming.
Now, I realize this issue is more personal for you than for most people. As such, I hope you'll be able to begin to post calmly and intelligently. I'm sure the rest of us would benefit from your personal experiences.
OK.
Citation?
Why do I have to do your research for you?
So the issue is that you skipped both biology and sex ed in high school? How did you get away with that? Most folks under 40 would at least be dimly aware of the issue and the terminology.
So sad.
Because you're the one making the claim.
Are you unable to do even the most basic amount of research? Certainly, you are computer literate.
What fantasy is Shrekk asking you to participate in? Where did he make that suggestion?
Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black, here let me rephrase that for you,
"But the right should realize as long as this transgender craze keeps going on and, the try to force everyone to accept their personal belief that gender isn't fluid then sadly more things like this will happen. If the right is intolerant by forcing everyone to conform to their way of thinking this issue will continue and, it will end with blood being spilled.
Well said.
Let us not forget that BOTH the pot AND kettle are indeed....black.
There is raging intolerance on both sides, and both sides will need to come down from their extremist high-horses before this is all solved.
The reality is that transphobes and homophobes need to either grow up or die off, the latter being the most likely demographic outcome over time. That's what generally has happened to various categories of ignorant and bigoted demographics like white supremacists - there are much fewer of those today than there were 50 years ago, even in superstitious socially conservative groups like the Southern Baptists which were founded specifically to promote white supremacy.
Do not confuse people who don't agree with everything you say with people who fear anything.
Yet you seem to find a new person to call "bigoted" at every turn.
Jack, most, not all the people who are against Trans folk are bigoted because they don't understand what a Trans person is or, who they are, it isn't about sex, it is about gender, there is a difference but, the people who are against Trans folk don't understand that, to them sex and, gender are one in the same but, that isn't true at all.
If you have a fear of something confront it and, by that I mean take a look at it, examine it, learn about it and, most of the time you will find that there is nothing to fear there. What most of the negative posts here are worried about is a man walking into a woman's bathroom in a public place but, they forget, it isn't a one way street here people who were born men physically, think they are women mentally and, are changing their gender yes but, by the same token, there are people born women physically who think they are men and, they too are changing their gender, the best and, most public of this change is the gentleman that is posted above somewhere, born a woman he is a man mentally and, has changed his gender to male. Ask yourself, do you want someone who thinks of themselves as a man and, who was born a woman going into a woman's bathroom or, would you prefer they go to a bathroom that fits their state of mind?
And not just their state of mind but also their gender expression, although I suspect Jack will need to google that term too.
It's not clear why folks like him want people with a male gender expression in the women's room, but that appears to be what he and so many other conservatives really do want.
As I indicated, they are only thinking of one side of it and, haven't really thought it through, if they did, then they would be appalled at their side of the argument.
Stop here. Most people who oppose or have concerns with shared restrooms or especially locker rooms are not "against trans folk". These hardcore leftists like to portray it that way, the same way they like to portray that anyone who questions any of their other extremist views as a lesser human being. It helps them feel powerful and bully others into agreement. Witness the hardcore leftist, obviously transgendered person on this forum who has been blatantly abusive to every person who dares disagree with him/her.
This is their religion, they are MUCH more devoted than most Muslims or Christians, and they are as bad as all religious fundamentalists in their disdain for those who they see as infidels.
You're generalizing about an awful lot of people you've clearly never met. Also, do not confuse "do not understand" with "do not agree."
Further, since when did misunderstanding (your words) constitute bigotry? Since when did failure to endorse any and every implausible plan somebody comes up with constitute discrimination or bigotry?
Don't assume people are afraid. People are angry because the hardcore left is forcing "solutions" that nobody has thought through very well, telling anybody who disagrees "tough shit" and having a "bigot" tantrum every time anybody dares question them.
I've said repeatedly that I don't care about bathrooms. All bathrooms have stalls.
My concern specifically centers around public schools and the often ancient facilities in the locker rooms that allow no privacy whatsoever. My concern also centers around the girls who are required to use those facilities and have a right to what little privacy is afforded. I am not willing to sacrifice their right to not shower with a boy just because the boy has gender dysphoria....or claims to have gender dysphoria.
BTW...what will they do when four football players claim to "identify" as females trying to weasel their way into the girl's locker room? Will anyone claiming gender dysphoria need to produce medical proof? Will we start to keep a registry of gender dysphoric people? That can only end well. What could possibly go wrong?
How far will we take this? Because when boys with gender dysphoria are able to play women's college basketball/soccer/track & field/etc....on scholarship.... you'll be AMAZED at how many cases suddenly arise.
Standard liberal dogma seems to revolve around protecting the rights of those they see most vulnerable, usually without regard to the rights of anybody else and often without thorough consideration of the plans they demand be enacted. It's a blind, emotional reaction that generates capricious and poorly reasoned "solutions".
As you have repeatedly stated, gender dysphoria happens in the mind. It is a function of a person's "feelings". I reject the idea that the right course of action is to forfeit the rights of 50% of our population in a wholly uncertain attempt to accommodate the "feelings" of 1% of our population.
Of course they are because, they don't understand them. Humans have always been afraid of what they don't understand, it's called "human nature".
Ummm, actually, this sounds more like the folks who want to, "use a sharp knife" on a 12 year old.
No, the folks on the Alt-Right have been doing this for century's, since the days of slavery.
Agreement only comes with understanding, remember, it was Jesus who said, "If they have ears, let them hear", in order to understand one must really listen, without prejudice, to what the other side is saying, assuming what someone is saying or, how a person, in this case Transgenders act, believe, feel or, think is dead wrong on the part of the Right.
I grew up with a bigot in the house, at least until I started high school, that person was my mother. Just as an idea I couldn't have friends that were black after the 5th grade, (did anyway), she decided blacks weren't that bad after I brought home my girlfriend Gloria, not the same one as my wife but, she was black too, she and, my mother sat together and, talked and, I saw my mom change some in her thinking. My sister had a roommate that was a Lesbian, my mom did everything she could to get them out of the same apartment, she said that her roommate was trying to "recruit" my sister, when I was twenty-five my sister had a girlfriend and, mom had no choice but, to accept it and, she found out when she did that her friend back in the day was her girlfriend to and, there wasn't any recruiting done for that to happen.
They said the same things back in the days of Jim Crow.
Fear can manifest as anger, especially when that fear is really strong and, conservatives don't like change, it's in their nature to oppose change and, this is change, it is for the better but, no one on the right will see it as that.
Good for you but, this isn't really what this is about, bathrooms are just the physical manifestation of the real problem, fear and, misunderstanding.
That is what the current treatments are for, to figure out if a person is actually Transgender or, is, as you say just claiming it. You should really check out WPATH requirements.
You're being hyperbolic for no reason, a person claiming to be Trans has to go through many things to get to the point you are talking about, as I said above, you need to check out the WPATH requirements for Transgenders.
Again, this is hyperbole nothing more. It is also showing the fear that has been raised for no reason other than to hate the "Other".
The same things were said during the Civil Rights Era about blacks being able to sit next to white folks at the lunch counter or, use a white folks water fountain or, use a white folks bathroom and, guess what, none of that was correct.
So, then you are alright with letting someone like this guy in the women's bathroom? Remember, he was born a woman.
Utterly ridiculous. "Failure to give you everything you want" does not mean someone is "against you".
Whereas the left have only just started being abusive assholes, so that's OK. Riiiiiiight.
And very often not even then.
Yes. Absolutely. So how do you not see that you're doing this with regard to conservatives?
Mine too. The older she gets, the worse it gets.
We don't like half-assed, capricious change. We don't jump off a bridge simply because it's a change from our current situation.
It is half-assed, capricious change that does not begin to consider all of the factors involved.
No...it's about bathrooms and locker rooms. That's what forcibly interjects somebody else's issue to their lives. It's about people minding their own business and some leftist coming demanding they make half-assed, capricious changes to their lives or they're a bunch of bigots.
You're being naive. Which is the single largest contributor to half-assed, capricious change. Has this child gone through these requirements? Whom do you intend to have policing this? How do you think they're going to track it? (registry) You're referencing an organization solely devoted to transgender health. What about the rights and mental health of other people?
By "hyperbole", you seem to mean "realism that you don't want to consider". Ten years ago the current scenario would have been considered "hyperbole".
I'm being naïve? I'm the one offering you a source of information which you are rejecting out of hand, doctors follow the WPATH requirements for Transgender's, which require that someone claiming to be Transgender live as their chosen sex while undergoing HRT and, the surgery and, they must use HRT for at least 18 months before the surgery. Now, I don't know about you but, I don't know too many macho football players that are going to go around in a dress for 18 minutes much less 18 months just to get a look a woman's ha ha and, be willing to take anti-testosterone and, estrogen for those 18 months taking more than a chance of ruining their place on the football team since the purpose of taking the hormones is to change the physical as well as the mental state of the person taking them.
Here's some realism for you, there are two types of Transgenders as you know, male to female and, female to male, at the completion of both the genitalia is change to the preferred sex, yes, that's right, the male to female gets a vagina and, the female to male gets a penis. Now, the "they have to use the bathroom that their birth certificate says they should" crowd haven't thought about this part of it but, what you and, they are talking about is forcing women to use the bathroom with female to male Transgenders who have gotten the full surgery, in other words, (gasp), men with penis's.
I don't treat people by forcing them to indulge in whatever fantasy I have at any given moment. I prefer to be treated the same way. That is not bigotry.
The link I posted shows sex change operations are not a cure all and doesn't solve the underlying problem. What parents are doing by indulging and even encouraging transgenderism is child abuse. In ten years or less we'll see the fallout of this.
Who is forcing children, teens, and adults to be transgendered?
It is trendy in blue states to have a trans kid. There's even summer camps for it:
Those camps exist to give trans kids a safe place to be themselves, away from ignorant judgemental religious bigots who seek to hurt them.
No parent wants their child to be transgendered, so your idea that parents try to push their kids to be transgendered is insulting, criminal and assinine.
Gee why not? I mean after all, it's so normal and healthy, right?
It is normal for about 1% of the population to be born transgendered. They can lead a healthy life if they get proper medical/psych' care. Denying that they are not transgendered is abusive and tends to lead to that child or person committing suicide.
Why is this so personal to you to deny that transgendered people do not exist? Is there someone in your family who is transgendered or maybe you had a friend who came out as trans and it bothers you?
No, it's not. It's a harmful and dangerous flaw each and every time it happens. You know that, otherwise you wouldn't have made such a big deal of parents not wanting their kids to be transgendered.
Cool - you can stand on your soap box and point your finger at any transgender kids you find. But as several recent studies have shown, folks like you are the real problem.
The child being transgendered occurs whether the parents choice or not. Hopefully, the parents get the child the proper medical/psych care and are supportive so their child doesn't end up dead by suicide, which would happen if they followed your ideas.
You and Rmando are really taking this thing to extremes
What's extreme about limiting the girls' bathroom to actual girls?
An extreme change to basic concepts of things as simple as gender and a fundamental change to society will provoke "extreme" responses.
Do you want a girl dressed as a boy to use the girls' room? Do you want a boy dressed as a girl using the boys' room?
You don't see any problems especially with my last scenario?
There is no reason to attack a trans child because of your own inability to understand the issue. You need to learn to deal with the issue yourself instead of lashing out at others because of change.
Once you understand the fact of psychological gender identity there is no problem, but apparently, this is a mental block for you and others.
Given that transgender folks have used a gender-conforming public restroom ever since gender-segregated rest rooms were invented, there's been no "change" per se. If you've ever been in a multi-stall restroom there's a chance you were unwittingly in there with a transgender person. The only change is that medical science is now aware of gender identity and the harm caused by stigmatizing trans folks and treating someone in conflict with their gender identity and gender expression.
However your comment does reveal the serious threat of violence and murder which transgender folks frequently face from bigoted conservatives. That problem is what needs to addressed. Perhaps GPS ankle monitors would be appropriate so that normal folks would be alerted whenever conservatives are loose in public settings?
Yes. Because she's a girl. I don't care what she's wearing.
Yes. Because he's a boy. If he wants to dress like a girl, that his choice. It doesn't affect anyone else.
Well, when someone ends up in a hospital just remember I told you so
"However your comment does reveal the serious threat of violence and murder which transgender folks frequently face from bigoted conservatives."
I would never promote and encourage any use of violence outside of self defense because I am not a member of Antifa or BLM or a Bernie Sanders supporter.
However the left should understand that if you force people mothers, wives and daughters in dangerous situations with potential rapists and pedophiles you will provoke in some a very negative response.
Transgendered people are not pedophiles and rapists. They would not be permitted to begin the transition process if the therapist had any doubt about that possible drive.
Do you know what estrogen and androgen blockers do to a person's sex drive?
That's a rather moronic and uninformed comment given that it's trans folks who face threats of violence from the non-trans, not the other way around. Whatever bizarre fantasy you've cooked up in your mind is a myth which has no supporting data whatsoever. The real demons are folks like you who perpetuate such stigmatizing and erroneous myths.
You assume that everyone who claims to be transgendered really is one. Bad people are not above exploiting an opportunity and as far as the general public knows the whole transgender claims are done on the honor system. Anyone can claim transgender and not be legally challenged.
As is apparent from this discussion there's a very large amount of anti-trans stigma in this society as well as a general demonization of anyone who violates gender norms or is gender non-conforming. So I'm not sure how a cisgender person would benefit from claiming to be transgender. It's like claiming a straight person would claim to be gay because of all the societal benefits which result. Quite the opposite is true in both cases.
.
Bad people will exploit "opportunities" regardless, but that's no reason to persecute or stigmatize trans folks like you have done. It's certainly not a valid reason to falsely accuse trans folks of being pedophiles or rapists like you foolishly did.
My general take on your comments is that you erroneously think a cisgender male rapist will pretend to be transgender in order to access a women's restroom and rape someone. While that has actually happened once or twice there are two problems with your virtually non-existent scenario: if the male rapist has dressed as woman why is he claiming to be transgender rather than just claiming to be a woman? And if he's not dressed as a woman or otherwise creating a female gender expression why is he in the women's restroom?
Perhaps what you're really saying is that you assume that transgender folks don't present a conforming gender expression.,....which is a profoundly ignorant and erroneous assumption. It's also a dangerous one for you and anyone you're assuming is a sexual predator because of their appearance. Do you plan to grab the crotch of anyone who looks vaguely androgenous or whose features or gender expression doesn't match your rigid notion of gender? If so you can expect to be beaten to a pulp by this burly dude:
Let's put it this way.....why do you want to force that burly dude to share the same restroom as your daughter?
That would mean that they are a transvestite if they aren't transgendered.
Transgendered people who are part of a recognized gender program and often carry with them a letter from their doctor(s) attesting to this fact. Many have the business card of their Dr attesting to this fact.
The More You Know.............
Wooooosh.
I'm ridiculing the transphobes who want to force transgender folks to use a restroom which doesn't conform to their gender expression or their gender identity. I'm not sure why they want to do that.
By the way the pic is of Buck Angel, a transgender activist who is making the exact same point. Why do dumb and bigoted conservatives want to force Buck to use the women's restroom? Are conservatives trying to normalize the presence of male gender expression in women's restrooms?
Crickets.
The heterosexual male pervs who want to slip into the ladies bathroom and moplest girls/teens would not even be required to dress in drag to do it, if transmen are forced to use the ladies bathroom.
I've met a few trans guys and despite the fact that they may lack a functional penis I do not want them in the ladies room because they have very male sex drives.
Why would someone end up in a hospital?
Because some one is going to get hurt
I still haven't heard why.
A transgender girl comes into the boys' bathroom because YOU insist that she has to use the boys' because she was born a boy.
Now....let's use our imaginations and figure what happens next. You were a boy once and reading your comments on here, I have a feeling that if some one was different from you, you didn't exactly leave them alone. Were you a bully? Erm......
There will be bullies in this school and our young woman is going to meet up with them in the boys' room....
connect the dots
You pretend not to know but you know exactly why.
If you knew what they meant, why did you say the above?
Maybe we should mandate that all transgendered individuals be issued firearms to protect themselves from religious people, social conservatives and testosterone-poisoned males who seek to harm them for various reasons. Maybe then some people will keep their hands to themselves and mind their own business. Politicians often use denying transgendered people equal rights as a political ploy to gain support from social conservatives and religious groups at election time.
And you don't think this...or worse....is going to happen with a girl with gender dysphoria in the boy's locker room?
Due to the threats from bigoted and violent conservatives, as well as the help from many folks who are concerned about the family's safety, it looks like they'll be moving to Houston. Here's the latest news coverage:
They'd probably be far better off if they moved out of the confederate states and bible-babble belt, but it sounds like they have relatives in Houston.
The idea that you can speak for 150 million parents is ridiculous from the onset.
Of course there are parents who want their kids to be transgendered, if for no other reason than the parents desire the attention. Mathematically it's almost impossible that there would not be some of those.
The only question is how widespread that behavior is.
Do you mean a boy with gender dysphoria in the girls' room?
Oh, yes. I do. Girls can be mean little sumbitches these days
I'm down with issuing guns to people to protect themselves especially from bigots
A boy with gender dysphoria in the girls' locker room is less likely to be physically and or sexually assaulted, and would be substantially more able to defend himself.
I think we're getting things confused here. A boy with gender dysphoria is a boy who was born as a girl. But since you want him to use the locker room/restroom that corresponds to the sex he was born as.....he has to use the girls' because more than likely he still has female equipment.
Remember what I said about girls being being little sumbitches? I used to be one of those mean girls. We can be downright nasty. And that poor boy will get bullied.
And, here you are trying to speak for the same 150 million parents.
Why would anyone want their child to be transgendered?
Jack, what you are describing sounds suspiciously like Munchausen-by-proxy syndrome. Why would any rational person want their child to be born with this disorder?
Tex, thinks there's a money angle here.
Do you understand that by the time these trans children are using the restroom of their identified gender they are commonly taking hormones and have similar testosterone or estrogen levels of their peers? Your own apparent ignorance of this situation is the biggest stumbling block to understanding.
If I post some links detailing the treatment will you take the time to read them?
The only money angle here is how much of their own money are the parents going to have to spend to help their child because even with the best private medical insurance they still attempt to deny needed care.
I know, every time I go into the doctor I figure I'm helping pay for his new sports car, the payments have got to be really large for what he charges my insurance.
My Dr. just had her 2nd child so I assume that I'm paying into a fund for private school and college. Or her medical school loan payments.
I think that she drives a Toyota SUV.
LOL, we always pay someone else's bills don't we?
Both she and her hubby are part of the same practice that has 2 other Drs so I'm not crying for them. The office is so busy that unless you are on death's doorstep, it's 2 weeks to get an appointment.
She and her nurse helped me get coverage for a medication approved when my insurance wanted to stonewall and deny, so I cannot complain.
It's the same for me, it takes a month to get into my doctors office and, that is planning ahead so, I don't get sick in between visits.
You've clearly never taught and you've certainly never coached. In what fantasy world does a 5'5", 140lb girl take hormones that turn her into a 6'3" 200lb boy? Why do you think any such confrontation would only involve one assailant? Why do you refuse to acknowledge anything related to real life in these situations?
Any ignorance I may have is utterly dwarfed by your outrageous naivete.
Since when are human beings "rational"? What an idiotic assumption.
OK... I don't agree, but I'm listening.
Are we intentionally trying to make it confusing?
But no. Medically, a boy with gender dysphoria is a boy who believes he should have been born a girl.
I think people need to use the locker room that either matches their physical "equipment" (elegant term...I like it), or private locker room accommodations should be offered.
A boy with gender dysphoria in the girls' locker room is not nearly as vulnerable to assault.
Well...you're going to need to make up your mind.
If it's a "mental illness", like it used to be called, then it's covered by insurance.
If it's not a mental illness, then there is nothing wrong and thus nothing to cover.
No, but it sounds like you were. That seems to be where your mind is going, not mine.
The notion that you think testosterone is poison to a male says all we need to know about your command of sexual biology.
Does the concept of sarcasm mean anything to you at all?
Men with high testosterone levels do tend to be more aggressive.
There is something very wrong when someone is transgendered ( a psychological gender-physical body mismatch) and it must be addressed if the patient is to survive and thrive. Mental illness has a very specific definition and as such being transgendered is not a mental illness. I await your next obvious reply.
If you had a basic understanding of psychology you would already understand this idea.
There is something very wrong when someone is transgendered ( a psychological gender-physical body mismatch) and it must be addressed if the patient is to survive and thrive. Mental illness has a very specific definition and as such being transgendered is not a mental illness. I await your next obvious reply.
If you had a basic understanding of psychology you would already understand this idea.
Should I take this as an admission on your part? Some human beings are innately rational and rational thinking can be and often is taught at the high school or college level. Some corporations have exercises to emphasize this important concept as part of annual seminars.
I got bullied so I know what bullies are. And they come in all shapes and sizes and all sexes.
Boy...you don't give girls much credit for being physical bullies, do you?
Jack doesn't appear to understand that teen girls can be absolute assholes, especially in small groups.
I don't think Jack has ever known any teenage girls
I remember when I was just a little girl in elementary school for some reason this guy threw me up against the fence and pinned me with his bike and was pummeling me and when other kids came to my rescue this other guy said that I started it. For fucks sake. These weren't girls but you are so right TG. They come in all shapes, sizes, and sexes.
I was bullied verbally all the time by guys until I finally stood up for myself. Girls too but guys more often.
By the time I got to high school, I remember one time this asshole started off by saying 'Hey did you hear about the whorehouse fire the other night?' and I said 'Yeah, I heard your mom got burned up in the blaze' and the guy was just dumbstruck. His pal I think looked up to me a little bit after that because he said 'Man she burned you before you had the chance to burn her.'
Good comeback!
I tended to use my fists more than my words
Take it as an introduction to reality.
"Rational" people do not have 14 children through in-vitro fertilization.
"Rational" people do not march around a doomed statue, nor do they head out to meet other marchers for a street brawl.
"Rational" people do not attempt to find a husband/wife by participating in a television program.
"Rational" people do not carry an AK-47 into Kroger.
"Rational" people do not set fire to their sleeping spouses.
"Rational" people do not sleep in a park for 6 months "protesting" something without any actual demands.
"Rational" people do not put makeup on a 4-year old and enter them in a beauty pageant.
"Rational" people to not abuse children. Yet over 7 million incidences are reported annually.
So when you say "no rational person would want their child to be transgendered", I agree completely. However, that is utterly irrelevant.
Not when it comes to physical assault on a teenage boy, no.
As it happens, I coached for 27 years. I am extremely aware of the gargantuan differences in the physical abilities of a teenage boy and a teenage girl.
Or did you imagine that the football team is all boys because the girls just don't like sports? Awfully sexist view.
I choose to live in the real world.
You are welcome to join me if you can find your way back from wherever it is you are now.
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are soooooooooo lucky you didn't go to school with me. Boy...girl.... I didn't care who you were
Who's the one with the sexist view? Girls are playing football now and yes, girls do like sports.
What color is the sky in your "real" world?
That's what hormones do to a person. Good thing that transgender kids are now being treated with early intervention so they can avoid a discordant puberty and experience one which aligns to their real gender identity. That's probably why Mack Beggs is a wrestling champ in your state.
Oh good. Another "keyboard warrior". *eyeroll*
Go on then. Tell us about all the football players you beat up as a high school kid.
*facepalm*
How many high school female offensive linemen can you tell us about? Linebackers? Running backs? Female students are just over 50% of the population, are they 50% of the football players? No? It must be a male privilege thing. The patriarchy in action.
Out of curiosity, what percent of HS football players are...in fact....women? Do tell.
Notice she wrestles as a girl.
Notice also that she won the title at 110 lbs.
Can you guess why wrestling is organized by weight class?
Can we get back to reality and lose the idea that even this extremely athletic transgender person who trains regularly would be equally matched with a football player twice her size?
CIS or transgendered football players? How long do you plan to be intellectually obtuse and ignore the fact that football in the US tends to be a gender-specific sport for CIS males, just as wrestling does?
Your bluster does not bolster your arguments.
You are declaring it as a disorder. Make up your mind.
We have a "patient"....but no illness. Make up your mind.
Hence the lack of insurance coverage.
Delivered. Enjoy.
I also survived high school bulling with my quick wit and sarcasm. I caused more than a few teachers to break up in class with my comebacks to some idiot who was harassing me. My high school was little more than a daycare center for jocks until practice started at 3:00 pm. The school board was more interested in regional and state sports championships than intellectual achievement. If the sports teams needed new equipment and new uniforms there was always money, but those of us who wanted AP courses were told to take a number and wait in line. We had the usual cliques of snobs, stoners, and geeks.
When do you plan to learn the difference between mental illness and disorder?
Effective treatment for gender identity isn't optional, it is not a choice, it is not cosmetic, as many insurance companies have tried to claim in the past. Try to knock off the condescending attitude, unless you want to be treated is a similar manner.
Obtuse indeed. You've lost the train of conversation, and you appear to have no idea what we're talking about so your accusations are silly. Again.
Her assertion is that a TG girl on hormones is going to be able to physically defend herself against a boy twice her size. The football player point clearly illustrates how much bigger and stronger male athletes are than TG women. It has nothing to do with transgendered football players. Please at least attempt to follow along.
I am simply repaying kind for kind. You've been rude for several days running, at least.
When you behave the way you do, expecting people to treat you well is a stretch.
In fact my state of WI just lost two federal court rulings on this issue and thus today the state insurance board voted to cover gender transition for any transgender folks who are state employees. Good for the board for finally doing the right thing (again), despite governor Walker's efforts to harm transgender employees. It's interesting how hating and harming trans folks seems to be a favorite past time of Republican politicians.
I understand the point but perhaps there are better ways to pose the situation.
But there was that time I put the star middle linebacker straight in the hospital. simple PE class scrimmage "touch" football. Idiot was supposed to be on my team. Being the hill billy/geek/jock kid the only idiots who tried to fuck with me were a couple stupid ass jocks. This event put an end to that.
This guy turned into me just as I was about the get the ball carrier. I saw it. It was on purpose and I laid into him. We both went flying in the air and an ambulance took him away with a broken leg.
Then again, I'm a guy. But challenging someone here is not pertinent.
Wresting is not a pertinent subject either. This is to all.
I wrestled 185 but half the time wrestled heavyweight. I am not ashamed to say I was the Alexandr Karelin at 185 in our division. Sometimes the heavyweight opponent was too much for our heavyweight and the guy behind me at 185 was good enough to do the job.
Wresting has too many dynamics beside weight and male/female involved.
All that said, I am in no position to judge anyone.
Conservatives seem to think that trans people are too small of a population demographic to be able to muster any resistance and that there are no political repercussions for denying them care, either for fiscal gain or to throw a bone to their social conservative demographic when they deny them either effective medical care or secular rights that the CIS population enjoys.
Agreed, but the point here is that Texas is irrationally forcing a transgender male to wrestle women rather than men in his weight class. So that fact directly undermines Jack's erroneous claims about birth sex. What matters to some extent is testosterone level.....as many sports organizations from the IOC to the NCAA to the NFHS have recognized.
At least for now it seems that the GOP has made the correct calculation that hating gay and transgender folks appeals to their profoundly bigoted and ignorant base. But in 20 years I suspect those anti-LGBT policies in the GOP's platform will be gone because they'll no longer attract voters. Maybe race will still work for them as a wedge issue to appeal to bigots?
Jack, I have tried to be more than kind to you. I have done research for you that should have been yours to do. I have explained basic concepts for you at length, but apparently, you don't like what I have told you.
Can I give you a hint? I learned long ago in college debates that when a person gets nasty or has to rely on bluster to get their point across, it's a subliminal admission that they know that they have a losing argument. I used to be intimidated by that bluster and to back down but that was more than 20 years ago.
Personally, I can only refer back to what was the closest match I ever had. He was actually a very good friend. His body mass distribution was atypical. No where near the strength or endurance as me. Very flexible and could leverage his mass, that would in my mind, force me to over commit on any of my moves.
Wound up forcing him into 2 technical errors. He got 1 escape on me. I won 2 to 1. Completely exhausted.
I am not altogether sure how that analogy may or may not apply to the mentioned transgender male wrestling females.
I guess typically the transgender male would, on paper,day to day, match to match, have the advantage over the females and the exception would be just that, the exception.
Really? Interesting definition of kindness. I suggest.... "If you had a basic understanding of kindness you would already understand this idea"....and.... "Your own apparent ignorance of this situation is the biggest stumbling block to understanding."
Your assertion = your citation. That's not a new thing.
So only those who agree with you are entitled to civility, good manners, or kindness? You've explained your interpretation of certain concepts, and I have rejected some of those interpretations.
So what's the subliminal message when somebody calls others "ignorant", says they're lacking "basic understanding", and then complains when she is asked for citation of her assertions?
What's the subliminal message when a person cannot bring herself to acknowledge the validity of ANY concept running counter to her existing beliefs, despite being introduced to ideas she's clearly never considered before?
The fact that you identify disagreement as "bluster" undermines the credibility of this statement.
Yep. In fact the wrestler in question had for a while been wrestling against other boys in his weight class. He was good but not exceptional. But when the state's UIL board intervened and forced him to wrestle against the girls he won all the matches including the state title 2 years in a row. But he's now in college in Georgia with an athletic scholarship on the men's team thanks to USA Wrestling’s new transgender policy.
I have to give the kid lots of credit for sticking with it despite the incredibly hostile public reaction he's faced at his meets in Texas.
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The part I loved most was all the bigoted conservatives in Texas who whined about Begg's undefeated record......despite the fact that it was ignorant bigots exactly like them who were forcing Beggs to compete against girls rather than other boys.
Good for Mack
And here is an excellent illustration of my exact point. This topic extends FAR beyond the hyper-simplistic idea of a bathroom stall. It is a complex, potentially far reaching issue that should not be decided on an emotional, capricious, brainless fashion.
I doubt it, but which claims, specifically?
You're taking a single example from a single sport and thinking you can extrapolate it. It doesn't work that way. The height differences alone create problems in most sports, not to mention you'll have some athletes with permission to artificially manage their testosterone levels while others have to rely on what nature gave them.
It's not a simple issue.
So apart from public potties and sports, both of which already have been solved if you don't live in Texas or other bible-babble states, exactly what issues do you fantasize might arise?
Just as an FYI before you answer, transgender folks have always lived among us. It's generally not been a problem.
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Ummmm.....presumably Beggs had been on puberty blockers for several years. He'll catch up in height now that he's undergoing puberty. But it's really an irrelevant issue anyway - people tend to gravitate to the sports they're good at, and Beggs is clearly a very talented wrestler.
By the way many high school, college and professional sports organizations have already figured out this issue and dealt with it correctly......unlike the bigots at the UIL who control the Texas high school sports program.
Jack, you and I are finished with this conversation. Impasse
Exactly episette. It was a jock who was always insulting me and who threw that insult at me.
They are far from solved.
To be clear....you demanding everybody do what you want and calling them a bigot if they disagree does not constitute "solved".
First, there are other people involved besides transgendered ones...and they have rights, too. Like the right of a 14-year-old girl not to be forced into an open shower with a boy, simply because the school lacks private shower stalls, and this boy has feelings that he's really a girl. Now...I know several people on this forum don't think those girls have rights, but I assure you they do.
There are issues like "how do we differentiate between an actual transgendered boy under medical care and a smartass frat-boy in training just trying to get into the girls' showers?" If you think that won't happen within 7 days of any new "open showers" policy, you haven't spent any time around groups of teenage boys. So this is going to require some level of documentation, investigation and vetting....which creates a whole other list of "shit that can go horribly wrong". Rules need to be established, procedures need to be developed. Careful thought needs to be involved, not just emotion.
How do we establish rules governing competition where being a male most of your life gives you a massive advantage (basketball, for instance). A 6'5" forward is small by men's standards, but would be giant in the women's game. Female hormones to not make boys shorter. Anyone who doesn't think some boys will consider taking hormones when $300k college scholarships are on the line hasn't been paying attention.
So how do we intelligently manage that in a way where we're not negating Title IX by attempting to expand Title IX?
Agreed.
Conservatives always trot out a parade of horribles to object to the civil rights of minorities, yet mysteriously those horribles never appear or never are an issue once those minorities do get their civil rights and get treated fairly. It's also rather amusing that you're unaware that the courts have dealt with competing privacy claims on this issue and almost always ruled against the bigots making those bogus and uninformed claims.
Few high schools today have group showers but even the ones which do will provide privacy curtains to anyone who wants them. The funny part about this issue is that conservatives never seem aware that it's the trans kid who is most self-conscious about their body image and the one least likely to want to expose it to others, especially not to bigots.
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So far that particular horrible hasn't happened anywhere despite some blue states having adopted trans-friendly policies over a decade ago. Apparently cisgender kids fear ridicule too.
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The schools already do have protocols to help kids who think they might be transgender, and they'll also have a statement from the kid's doctors. The fact that you're not aware of this shows how little you know about the topic.
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LOL. No cisgender male athlete is going to take HRT because it would kill both their sex drive and their athletic ability, nor would any doctor prescribe HRT to a cisgender person.
Various sporting organizations from college to the IOC have had rules regarding transgender athletes for years and it hasn't been a problem. But it is very revealing that you think cisgender folks will somehow take advantage of those rules, and thus transgender folks should be harmed in order to prevent a problem caused not be them but by unethical cisgender folks. Those are some truly twisted ethics.
You continue to prove that you are hung up on the physical appearance of someone and equate the existence of a penis with a boy, but our sexuality isn't that simple. Take for instance, if something tragic happened to you such as an accident and your penis was removed. Do you suddenly become female because of the lack of a penis? Our gender identity is in our brain, and Maddie's gender identity is female, despite her DNA. She even looks quite female. The male and female brains are physically different, despite what you may may and a transgendered person has the brain of one gender and the body of the other gender. That conundrum is the essence of what makes a person transgendered. Until you understand this basic concept there is no point in having any further conversation with you because we are beating our heads against a wall. Those trans girls are no more of a threat to her classmates than a lesbian classmate is. Do you also want different restrooms for gay and lesbian kids?
Who said anything about an open showers policy?
Trans kids don't start using the bathrooms and showers as soon as they start therapy. Most have been in therapy for a year or more before they begin to live as their identified gender. The school administration almost always has meetings with the parents and often with their psychologist to expain the situation and clear up any questions, so some kid can't go to school with a note that they wrote and annouce to his teacher and classmates that he is now transgendered and just use the bathoom and showers of his choice on a whim. Your own lack of understanding of the situation is allowing your mind to run away via conjured up fear.
Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution
Paul McHugh is a relgious hack and a fraud. His views have been rejected at Johns Hopkins and they are now treating trans people again. He also defends pedophile priests and people who kill abortion providers
How dishonest! You repeatedly claim doctors are on your side and when I quote a distinguished doctor - an expert and leader in this exact field - you want to revoke his credentials and claim he's a fraud and a hack. Talk about trying to have it both ways! You can disagree with this doctor, but you are not qualified to judge him the way you do.
No, you cited a superstitious bigot who never treated transgender folks or conducted or published any peer-reviewed research about them. He's never worked in this area at all, and he's universally condemned by those who do.
In fact McHugh hasn't even practiced in his own field for over 20 years, and he's never practiced in this sub-specialty. The dude is also something like 87.....all he seems able to do is get anti-LGBT screeds published as op-eds in the media, not in academia. His views on this topic are literally from the dark ages, long before things like fMRI studies were done on transgender folks. He's also written a few anti-LGBT amicus briefs for the courts.....and he was on the losing side in each and every case including key cases about marriage equality.
(deleted) deny that he's a doctor who was head of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins for 25 years. Also, I gave you more doctors below. So, ( deleted ) tell me without any evidence what you know about what doctors think. I know more about what doctors think than you do just thanks to Google.
He caused JHU a great deal of harm. It will be years before they can rebuild their psychiatry department so that it's competitive with comparable institutions in this area.
FYI, McHugh has never treated transgender folks nor has he ever conducted or published any peer-reviewed research about them. He's just a very elderly and superstitious anti-LGBT bigot who has repeatedly lobbied against the basic civil rights of gay and transgender folks. None of his anti-trans screeds have been accepted by any relevant peer-reviewed journals.
And as epistte noted, McHugh has long been part of the RCC's conspiracy to cover up pedophilia and avoid financial responsibility for those horrible crimes. He's a nasty piece of work whose own former university has condemned him for his bigotry, but it will still take JHU another decade or two to unwind the institutional harm he caused.
The fact that you cite McHugh reveals exactly where you're coming from.
( Deleted ) If you don't like McHugh, check out this study from 2013:
Factors Associated With Desistence and Persistence of Childhood Gender Dysphoria: A Quantitative Follow-Up Study
Thomas D. Steensma, Ph.D. , Jenifer K. McGuire, Ph.D., M.P.H. , Baudewijntje P.C. Kreukels, Ph.D. , Anneke J. Beekman, B.Sc. , Peggy T. Cohen-Kettenis, Ph.D.
I suppose all those PhDs don't know what they're talking about either when they write:
LOL. "Transgender Trend" is a UK-based hate group. No surprise that's your go-to source.
But to show you just how little you know about this topic, the authors of the legitimate paper you selectively cite (apparently without actually understanding it) are the very same doctors who devised the "Dutch protocol" which I've described elsewhere here and which is currently the preferred method for practitioners who work with transgender kids. Here's their study from one year after the one you cited:
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By the way some of these doctors you just unwittingly cited have explicitly condemned McHugh's bigoted quackery.
Here's an informed critique of the "desistance" study you cited:
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In any event the issue here isn't how many kids have been misdiagnosed at one time or another, or even what the flaws in a particular study might be. You apparently hold naive and completely uninformed anti-trans views which you use hate groups to support, but I'm telling you that those views have no scientific support and are ignored by the doctors who work in this area. You'll find no support whatsoever for your anti-trans views from any relevant or credible medical organization. Or to put it another way, yours are the kind of views which cause the high suicide rate of transgender kids who don't get proper treatment......so yours are the very kind of views which these doctors are fighting against.
It's not very compelling. And if websites matter, you cite thinkprogess.
And that's a shame because in any other context, misdiagnosis - especially when it can lead to suicide - would be a big deal. There is no reason to rush with kids. They should be allowed to develop as what they are and when they are adults they can do as they like.
Stop accusing people on here of hate or being associated with hate groups. Address the content of the argument. You just engage in name-calling with your continual talk of hate groups and bigotry. I don't hate anyone. I have an opinion and it's based on biology - not hate, not religion, and not bigotry.
Your ideas ignore basic facts of psychology and are only looking at the DNA and genitalia. Gender identity is a psychological concept and you are blatantly ignoring that core idea.
Where did you get your medical degree? You seem to think that the diagnosis is made by a family doctor when the truth is that there is an entire team of specialists that make the diagnosis and follow the patient for life. Have you ever met and talked to a person who is transgendered, or are you afraid that they would give you tran' cooties?
Not treating gender identity until adulthood causes many problems and forces them to have a worse outcome and having to unlearn many behaviors. The earlier that this issue is addressed the better the outcome for them is. This is not just a phase that they grow out of if they are transgendered.
Maybe you should read information from a professional medical group that is qualified than from quacks and people with a religious bias,
Me thinks thou doth protests too much - I was referring to the 'American College of Pediatrics' as a hate group. And those assholes who have no knowledge of the subject - as bigoted and hateful.
I actually agree. I think their parents should tell them to hold off, give things time and when they are fully grown decide what they really want to do. I see how impulsive and indecisive my kids are every day, and this is not just a small decision with no real long term effects.
Stop the presses! We can agree on this I think . Kids especially preteens can barely decide what to have for lunch much lesson things that effect their entire life.
That's actually the point to the puberty blocker phase of the Dutch protocol, to give trans kids time to mature so they can make an informed decision about whether to undergo the more permanent changes caused by hormone replacement therapy (ie a cross-sex puberty).
But what you don't want is to force the kid to undergo the trauma of a gender-discordant puberty because that dramatically elevates the suicide risk, and it also makes any subsequent treatment with hormones or surgery much more expensive with less effective results. To a lessor extent the same can be said for the early social transition recommended in the Dutch protocol. The sooner trans kids are identified and diagnosed, the sooner they start a therapeutic regime and socially transition, the better the long term outcome because the psychological stressors are reduced or eliminated. In fact the Dutch protocol normalizes the suicide rate and general quality of life for these folks. And what caring parent wouldn't want that for their kid?
I'm aware of the concept. I don't consider it pertinent to what bathroom a child uses.
It's simply not true to assert this. A majority of people grow out of it. Either way, there's no reason to use the wrong bathroom.
Where are your facts to back this claim up? I've never known any trans person who grew out of it. They either killed themselves or they went back in the closet because they couldn't afford the care. Those people usually ended up dead from drugs or alcohol trying to cover up the pain.
Your own emotions are running away with you because they are overriding any logical ability that you may have.
I've met a few transmen and I do not want them in the womens bathroom, despite the fact that we may share XX DNA. They are men and have very male sexual urges, even if a few of them do not have a functional penis. The fact that if a transman is forced to use the female bathroom means that any hetero guy could claim to be transman and they don't even have to go to the trouble of dressing in drag to do it. I bet that you didn't think of that. Should we hire priests/youth ministers and Republicans to be the potty police?
That is because you are obsessed with only their external genitalia and are ignoring the fact that our gender is in our brains and not between our legs. When a persons external genitalia and their gender identity do not allign, medical science follows their psychological gender identity and not their external genetalia because the mind controls the body and not the other way around. This is a basic concept of human sexuality. John Money proved in his immoral experiment on the Reimer twins that you cannot change a person's gender identity. It is fixed and immutable at birth, unlike their physical gender. The persons DNA is irrelevant because we do not see the DNA of others when we interact with them.
What bathrooms do intersexxed people use?
Many countries have unisex bathrooms and they don't have a problem with trans people harassing CIS others. It's a non-issue execpt in the minds of people like you.
That's a completely false claim. I suspect the hate groups you've been reading have caused you to confuse gender dysphoria with being transgender. They're not the same thing at all - anyone can experience gender dysphoria and not all transgender folks do.
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Most folks use the restroom which conforms to their gender identity and gender expression. Are you claiming that you do something different?
This is what UK schools have to say about the literature that is distributed by Transgender Trend,
Same place you got yours.
OMG you are fucking hilarious. This has become so predictable with you. You just love to start accusing people of being emotional when you don't want to try to see their side of an argument or you just flat run out of ideas.
ooo . . . bigotry? It's cool. We're all human.
None of them are men. They may be living as men, but they are not men, and none of them has a fully functional penis, although to be fair, that would not be my criteria for deciding the matter. Accidents happen, we grow old, it's not all glorious boners all the time.
By the way, if we're talking about adults, if a person has transitioned and I know it, I will treat them as a man. I have my opinions, but I'm not interested in being mean.
Police are important. I like having them around. They have a tendency to chase away criminals who are afraid of getting caught.
Not as much as you might think. I'm more obsessed with chromosomes.
We've been over this. Particularly in kids, the psych issues are irrelevant to me.
John Money wasn't experimenting on gender identity. He was a bad surgeon who torturing two children (including a patient he butchered) who grew up and killed themselves.
Fixed at birth? Sure, probably, but I don't think we have enough data to say precisely what is going on with trans people. That fact may not be relevant. This issue may turn out to turn on something we don't see yet.
From what I have read of this relatively rare condition, there is still one set of genitalia that develops better than the other and it's usually the one that corresponds with what you would see in the chromosomes.
America has plenty of unisex bathrooms. You just don't see them a lot in K-12 schools. I think you'll find the same is true in "many countries."
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Get it yet? No?
"Most folks" use the restroom which conforms to their gender identity and gender expression because "most folks" are not trans-freakin-gendered!
I can't believe I had to explain that.
You do not see a person's physical gender or their psychological gender identity when they use the bathroom unless you're a peeping tom. What you see are their secondary and tertiary gender characteristics.
I'm not the one claiming that most Drs are wrong.
Bathrooms? Meh. Yeah. Probably.
But locker rooms are a very different story. Most public school locker rooms have no stalls or dividers. Poor design, I admit, but that's where we are.
That picture is from the 1950s. We had little plastic dividers at the showers and that was in the 1980s. Most showers now have the same dividers from knee to shoulder level or even separate showers with curtains. Why are you looking at others in the shower anyhow, unless you're looking to be offended?
If you have bothered the read you would know that pre-teens don't get to make the decision. The questioning of their own gender identity is only the very start of the process. That final decision can be 5-10 years down the road asnd it is made by a team of specialists after years of psychological counseling and another testing. It's 6 months to a year before teens are administered hormone blockers that are easily reversed. This is a minimum of a 3-4 year intensive process for adults, and the process is exponentially longer and more involved the younger the patient is.
What makes you qualified to say they're right?
Gender identity is a medical-psych situation so the people who should be making those decisions are trained medical specialists and not people with a conservative religious agenda who can only tell half-truths and occasionally blatant lies.
Who do you think should be making these decisions if it isn't Drs and PhDs? You have yet to understand the critical difference between transgendered and transvestite because you are so focused on a person's genitals that are not visible to people in public.
A bathroom is not "public." Genitals are very visible in a bathroom, particularly if you're a boy.
Only if you are looking at their crotch, so why are you looking when the use the urinal? Nothing is visible if they use the stall, which is the only possibility in women's bathrooms. When do you plan to understand psychological gender identity, which determines whether their personality and drives are male or female, regardless of what their DNA or genitals are? Someone with a female gender identity is still a woman, depsite the fact that she has a penis, even if she has a lesbian sexual orientation. The same goes for a man with a vagina is still a man. Once you understand this basic fact of human sexuality you will stop obsessing over a person's external genitalia.
Your obsession is extremely creepy, to say the very least.
Apparently it needs to be very superstitious men from the Bronze-age.
I found the "particularly if you're a boy." part kind of weird myself.
This might be the first time that you have I have ever agreed on anything. I'll PM Perrie so she can make a note of it.
Wasn't it MDs and PhDs who said being gay was a mental disorder? Wasn't being trans a mental disorder up until last year or so? I see no particular reason I should put faith in the conclusion of MDs and PhDs when they keep changing their minds and the data is still so limited.
One thing I have observed about real medicine is that the best doctors prefer and default to the least invasive techniques when dealing with almost any problem. Medicine is actually very conservative in this way. It's a policy that seeks to do the least possible harm. One thing you cannot say about transitioning children, hormone therapy, puberty blockers, and surgery is that they are the least invasive options.
But suddenly - very suddenly in the scheme of things, and sometimes for socio-political reasons like "avoiding stigma" - we see the experts radically departing from the common approach both in research and treatment.
This is a pattern that is very different from the standard methods. That's why I don't just blindly trust the opinions of the people with letters after their names like you do.
More gaslighting from you.
No. That's the dumbest thing. Just. No.
It's too late once they're 'fully grown'. Again see Shrekk's explanations above.
Yes. Thousands of schools have not been renovated since then. Here. How about this one.
You may have. That doesn't mean most schools are that way.
I coached basketball for years. In most schools, the visiting team changes in the women's locker room because that school's girls' team is playing away. In most of the away locker rooms I've been in, there are no dividers.
To be clear, I don't care at all about women using the men's locker room. Whatever.
I do hesitate when I consider teenage girls being forced to share the showers with men. I'm sure I don't need to remind you of all people that the girls have rights, too.
Now...ever the moderate, I think there is probably some compromise to be found here.
FYI, transgender kids are generally more concerned about their personal privacy than anyone else. They have no interest in having some bigoted conservative leering at them much less assaulting them.
But that's why the Obama era Dept of Ed had issued very carefully considered guidance on this issue which included privacy provisions for any student who wanted it. But of course the clueless and bigoted morons who run the Trump regime revoked that guidance. Heck, those dumb bigots are even refusing to respond to a number of lawsuits which have been filed due to the harm caused by transphobic school districts in Texas and other regressive states.
Meh. Yeah. OK. Fair point.
Your evidence?
Your continued use of the word "bigoted" in every post makes them hyper-emotional and less intelligent. To your assertion...capricious action regarding transgender kids increases their risk of being compromised in just the ways you describe.
Or...in the real world...they did so to pander to hyper-emotional liberals.
Your continued emotional need to insult anything and everything you perceive possibly representative of anyone disagreeing with you is just sad.
In fact the reason homosexuality is no longer considered a mental disorder is because there was never any scientific evidence to support that classification, just a pervasive anti-gay bias in society.......much to the dismay of the dumb bigots and hate groups which you've cited as credible and authoritative like Paul McHugh, NARTH, FRI and the ACP. NARTH in particular was formed by discredited and superstitious quacks in direct response to that declassification as was the Family Research Institute (whose very appropriate original name was "ISIS"). This NIH article discusses that history:
The same thing is the case for gender identity. In fact there are many parallels regarding that declassification including the formation of anti-trans hate groups and the fact that what the science actually shows is that the primary mental stress transgender folks face is caused by bigoted transphobic social conservatives, most of whom base their views not on science but on rigid notions of gender and gender roles which come directly from Bronze-age superstitions.
A "man with a vagina" is actually a "woman with gender dysphoria".
Medically, "identifying" as a man does not actually make you one.
Sounds like you've confused gender dysphoria with being transgender. They're not the same thing at all and not everyone who experiences gender dysphoria is transgender, many are cisgender (presumably you are) or gender variant but not trans.
Note that gender dysphoria is typically caused by dumb bigots who react poorly to another person's actual gender identity.
By which you mean I have "read medical guidance on the issue".
Citation?
(deleted)
I've only referred to transphobes, homophobes and bigoted conservatives as bigots in this thread. Are you claiming to be in one of those categories? If so then why are you whining about it?
There are all kinds of resources like the APA and WPATH to help you learn the basic concepts and terminology of this issue. Why don't you do that first before asking others to do your homework for you?
So we set aside common sense and call it normal. No, more than that, you're supposed to take pride in it as if it were an accomplishment. But we willfully ignore what a biological conundrum it is that a member of a species that reproduces sexually should be attracted to the same sex. There's something wrong there and we don't understand why it happens. But because of socio-political bias we pretend it's a normal healthy condition. There's no science that say sexually reproducing organisms should be sexually attracted to the same sex.
By the way, I can have this opinion and still be loving and supportive of my gay friends. So save your accusations.
Yes it is. As described above.
Why do you attempt to discuss the topic if you don't understand the basic concepts? You act like you are an expert but then youy admit that you dont know even know the most basic information.
Transgendered females often feel that they don't fit in and they are ashamed of their disfigured bodies. Correcting that disfigurement so they are able to blend in seamlessly as if it never occured is the entire goal of the process. The fact that they are commonly taking both estrogen and androgen blockers destroys any biological sex drive that they may have ever had, even when they are most often attracted to boys/men. Trans females are far more often the victim of crimes than they are the aggressor, mostly because of people who don't understand the situation or lack compassion for others.
If it's too late, then Bruce Jenner must be anti-science, huh? So is everyone else who transitions as an adult. You sure you want to go with that claim?
That is what is referred to as stepping in it hip deep.
: golf clap GIF :
Wow! You are just full of bigoted stereotypes. It's not about leering. You don't even want to consider that other people might be made uncomfortable. You don't even want to consider that the feelings of young girls might matter so long as the transboy gets his "rights."
What it means is that starting to identify and deal with the issue before a discordant puberty occurs results in far better outcomes, both cosmetically and psychologically. It's also a lot less expensive.
The process is much more difficult for adults whose bodies have biologically matured in the wrong gender, plus they have learned certain gender-specific behaviors. They must unlearn those actions to pass in their identified gender. Caitlyn's voice is one of her biggest problems and while she could afford vocal lessons, she has not. I cringe when I hear her talk because it is so male.
That's why the best advice from the Dept of Ed was that all students who request additional privacy should be provided it, but that the burden of that privacy cannot be imposed on transgender students. Unfortunately the bigoted Trump regime withdrew that wise advice.
15 Scrabble points for the use of discordant.
How is my reply an example of gaslighting? How am I psychologically manipulating you by telling you one thing but meaning something altogether different?
It's obviously normal, it's just uncommon like being an Einstein or a Da Vinci. "Normal" is way overrated especially by those who seem obsessed with everyone fitting a common and tragically ordinary mold.
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Sounds like you've never been denied civil rights or were persecuted or stigmatized for who you are, but I guess that's what heterosupremacist privilege is all about. You should consider yourself lucky that you never needed a Stonewall riot to help gain the same civil rights everyone else enjoys. You also might want to learn what pride marches are all about and what they commemorate.
But speaking of pride marches, isn't that what Trump's white supremacist base was doing when they held their tiki torch parade and then murdered a woman in a terrorist attack? Apparently those dimwitted bigots are so fragile that the only thing they have to be proud of is a genetic flaw which causes a melanin deficiency and a high likelihood of developing skin cancer.
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That's obviously a bogus and erroneous claim since homosexuality is widely observed in the animal kingdom, including same-sex pair bonding.
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"Should be"? LOL. Science is taxonomic not prescriptive. It's clear your views are derived from your Bronze-age superstitions and from the hate groups you like to cite, and that you're trying to impose some rather twisted morality on something which concerns the biological facts of human fetal and neurological development.
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ROFLMAO. Be sure to tell your "gay friends" that.
Education always helps. Transgendered people aren't the problem. Ignorance is the problem. Put yourself in their shoes and then act as you would want others to treat you.
When do you plan to use the proper pronouns, unlike you are intentionally trying to be offensive and to insult trans people?
Is this why you previously posted the claims of Dr. Paul McHugh, and before that Dr. John Money, or am I not supposed to remember that you did that a few days ago? Who would you prefer that we get information on this condition from? Science changes as more information becomes available with research and that is why the DSM has changed.
What is your preferred transgender treatment regime that has better patient outcomes than the current medical-psych' approach?
I don't blindly trust anyone, including people making religious claims.
Archie Bunker wants royalties for your use of his argument because that is the very same idea that racists use when they say that blacks are inferior to whites or females are inferior to males. Strangely the bigots always claim to have a few black friends that they love. Archie claimed to be George Jefferson's friend, despite the obvious racial bias.
We are much more than our ability to procreate biologically, but you seem to be hung up a on that idea and want to judge others by that yardstick.
Being LGBT is very healthy and normal for about 5% of the population, despite your conservative bias. It would be very unhealthy for them to try to be CIS or heterosexual. Do you think that others are going to let you hold these people hostage as second-class citizens until you learn why it happens or you find another way to attack them because they refuse to comply with your beliefs?
How about we try more supportive therapy during adolescence and forego drastic physical and lifestyle changes? Something different than what has been done before. Of course we won't know about the outcomes for a while, but I'll bet you aren't interested in trying anything new. Anything other than what works for your feelings is hate-speech. So much for scientific inquiry.
Cite the religious claims. I sure haven't made any.
More personal insults from you. Big surprise.
By insisting that my thoughts are not rational but a result of my creepy obsession.
With your claim that I am creepy. No one wants to be creepy. I guess I should be ashamed of myself and see things your way, right?
What sort of supportive therapy is a superior alternative to the current medical-psych treatment approach? Trans people don't have a problem with the current treatment regimen but you obviously do, but you also continue to deny the core concept of a psychological gender identity that is separate from their biological gender.
The suicides occur because people aren't getting sufficient care early enough and the fact that trans people suffer from physical and emotional trauma because they are targeted by bigots due to the fact that they are different. The high suicide rate is not because the core treatment idea is inherantly faulty.
Oh no, you don't get to provide your own narrow definition to avoid being responsible for something you know you are doing.
Psychology Today: 11 Warning Signs of Gaslighting
You are trying to convince me that I am not using rational analysis, but rather, I have an obsession (probably a religious one). Not only that, but it's creepy! Well, no one wants to be creepy, so I should probably be ashamed and admit to my shamefully wrong thoughts.
It won't work, but I will point it out. And I lean particularly on the gaslighting because it's something you ironically love to accuse others of doing.
Actually it's a healthy adaptation to living at latitudes that see less sun than the tropics.
You continue to ignore the core concept of psychological gender identity and instead focus solely only the person's external genitalia. That is creepy, especially when the people in question are minors.
No, actually you are the one doing that. You keep bringing it up, not me. I have said multiple times that my focus is on chromosomes. You are the one who keeps talking about genitalia. Go back and look. I'm serious.
But perhaps you already know that. More gaslighting?
Like I said. Go back and look. How many times have you specifically made original references to genitalia vs how many times I have? Let's have a list of the comments so everyone can see. You might find out that I'm not the creepy one in this conversation.
Even more than that, they often subjected to cruelty from their own family, which can be particularly difficult.
But even so, I note that you are talking about psychological issues. That's good! Let's find some psychological solutions to psychological issues, and if we can, let's do it without mutilating our children.
aanndd we have more insults. sigh.
You want to differentiate a person purely on their biological gender and ignore their psychological gender identity. A person's chromosomes or their DNA does not determine their psychological gender identity because if it did then transgendered people would not exist. Transgendered people do not have a chromosomal malady like Downs Syndrome. John Money proved that a person's psychological gender identity does it and that it is not malleable because if it didn't exist or it was malleable then he would have been able to change David Reimer from a boy to a girl. Obviously, that didn't happen.
I did not call you a racist. I said that you are using the very same argument and instead you are trying to apply it to LGBT people.
The core concept of gender identity is that the person's brain is of one gender and the body is of another gender. What do you think that we have been discussing if it isn't psychology? What are both the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association experts on this matter if gender identity isn't a psychological condition. Gender identity would not be mentioned in the DSM if it weren't. Do you know what the DSM is?
John Money was a Ph.D. psychologist and Paul McHugh, who you cited, is a psychiatrist.
Children are not being mutilated, despite your emotional claim.
Here's the latest news coverage - due to the threats from bigoted and violent conservatives, and with help from many folks who are concerned about the family's safety, it looks like they'll be moving to Houston where they have relatives and the school districts are slightly more enlightened. Too bad they can't just move out of the confederate states and the bible-babble belt entirely.
Very odd then that all your citations came from anti-LGBT hate groups and anti-LGBT activists whose views are based on Bronze-age superstitions. Maybe you should cite the credible and current science from the groups which actually treat transgender kids and thus know something about them? Both the APA and WPATH have funded lots of research which you can read, as have the American Endocrine Society and the AACE.
Or is there some particular reason you consider hate groups and bigots like McHugh to be credible? Is it perhaps because you share the same superstitions as McHugh or belong to his particular Catholic extremist sect?
Who decides what's credible? You? PhD, published papers, and years treating the population in question don't seem to matter to you. I can give you more, but I doubt you'd find them credible for the simple reason that they don't say what you want to hear. At this point, I've forgotten what it was you even take issue with. Every comment you make includes some personal attack and that has distracted me from whatever conversation we might have once had.
By the way, where is the argument from religion that I asked for?
And you you knew exactly what I was referring to.
Why bring it up then? Are you prepared to say you don't think I'm racist?
Again you want to attack me for being emotional. I have made no emotional claims.
Maybe you should look up the word "mutilate" and ponder how chopping off a person's penis might qualify.
Well, to clarify: Yes, if a person born a man has his penis chopped off and replaced with a hand-built fake vagina, then he would still be a man - a man with a vagina.
On the other hand, if the person was born female, with a natural vagina, but identifies as a man, then no, she is not a man.
One of the more amusing thing about many leftists is how they hypocritically insist we should be open-minded and tolerant about things they accept, but are plenty eager to label anyone they don't agree with or understand as "weird" or "creepy" or some other delightful label.
Actually that's just my point. No relevant medical organization supports your views, only hate groups and anti-LGBT activists do. And the go-to bigot for you and the Catholic church, Paul McHugh, never treated transgender folks and never conducted or published any peer-reviewed research on the topic. In fact McHugh's "arguments from ignorance" have consistently been shredded by the professionals who actually conduct research, publish their findings and treat transgender folks.
Maybe you should have done a bit more research of your own before you cited a superstitious quack whose only real accomplishment has been to help the Catholic hierarchy avoid responsibility for their criminal conspiracy to rape kids.
Medical organizations are not monoliths. You act like because an organization has decided to go along with a policy that every member of that organization agrees with it. Well, that's not true. The diagnoses and treatments of transgender individuals, especially youth, are still very controversial.
He is not the only person I have cited nor is he the only person I could cite. Of course who else I cite will likely depend on the issue. Meanwhile you (or epistte, I can't remember) cite to a trans advocacy group publishing a report based on a questionnaire. That's hardly credible science.
Not at all. I am not intentionally trying to be offensive. You just happen to be offended by so much so easily (and then without a trace of irony accuse others of being emotional. It's kind of hilarious, actually). Offense is a choice, epistte. It's not an uncontrollable force of nature.
Give this a serious try: Choose not to be offended. If you can succeed, you will have discovered what true "tolerance" really is.
When you're not offended by people or ideas, you're not tolerant. You're merely indifferent. And there's no particular virtue in that.
That might be true outside of the medical community which treats these kids, but given the dramatic reduction in suicide rates it's clear that the current treatment protocols work very well. So if I were a parent with a trans kid I'd go with the science which works rather than the superstition which drives kids to kill themselves.
Also if you want to have your comments treated seriously you might want to get your citations from someplace other than hate groups and anti-LGBT activists. So far every one of your citations has been of or from that kind of source.....and that's very revealing.
The only people who mutilate children are the hateful bigots in Oklahoma, who are the reason why this girl is moving to Houston to live in peace.
Your comments are more proof of your ignorance of the subject because the gender surgery does not chop off any person's penis. The penis is inverted and inserted into a cavity to form her vagina. If you chopped it off then the vagina would not have any sensation, which is not true. I'll post a video of the surgery if you have the backbone to watch it.
I have a weak stomach and I get queasy watching natural birth videos. I puked when I watched a video of a C-section, so I won't watch it.
This is the technical version,
This is the far more graphic version,
NSFW. You have been warned!
Where is your treatment regime that has better outcomes than the current medical-psychological approach? You have yet to accept the concept of psychological gender identity that is the core idea of being transgendered. You have been asked multiple times and yet you deflect and ignore the question.
John Money's tragically failed experiment on David Reimer proves that your idea is incorrect. The patient's gender identity cannot be ignored if the patient is to survive.
KDM is not a liberal/leftist, and he was not agreeing with you.
via GIPHY
Ok so I was looking online and, found something that should give perspective to this question of "males going into women's bathrooms",
I don't what you mean by dramatic reductions. I see the opposite. I think it is a stretch to say that current protocols work "very well."
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
LOL.....not only is that study decades out of date (in terms of the subject groups) but even the study's author has condemned the misuse and misinterpretation which hate groups have put to it. By the way I already posted an interview with the study's author which debunks the claims made by people like you, but here it is again:
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Note that there are many more specific debunkings when that study has been cited by hate groups or anti-trans activists like McHugh, but I thought that a good debunking by the study itself would be most useful. Funny that bigots never cite the qualifier which debunks their entire argument.
Also note that Dhejne says that McHugh’s repeated misuse of her study is unethical. In fact Dhejne’s study says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what McHugh claims. It states that differences in mortality between the general population and transgender people, “did not reach statistical significance for the period 1989-2003.” In other words, there was no statistical difference in the suicide rate for transgender people who transitioned after 1989 and the general population.
It doesn't "debunk" anything. The data and the conclusions haven't changed. And the date of the survey does nothing to invalidate the data.
They aren't refuting their own study, and if they were, then what would that say about studies as a general matter? Ot themselves as researchers. All they are doing is trying to make sure the study is not misused. All I have done is to quote it. And you can't deny what's there.
Most critically, they have not disavowed these statements:
Did you bother to fully read and understand the conclusion before you trumpeted it as an endorsement of your beliefs?
The conclusion doesn't say that the core treatment idea (reassignment surgery) is fundamentally wrong and should be changed or eliminated. It says that more supportive mental health and somatic care after surgery is needed. The surgery should not be eliminated! You are so desperate to prove Shrekk, myself, and others wrong that you don't bother to fully read and understand the very links that you are posting.
How can you discuss what is the most effective transgendered treatment when you reject the core idea of the situation that the gender identity of the mind and the gender of the body are incongruent? You continue to deny the idea of a fixed psychological gender identity. Your own beliefs render you unable to understand the subject matter that must happen before you can intelligently discuss what the best treatment is. You think that you can deny the core concepts of human sexuality.
I can't speak to his politics, but I was aware he was not agreeing with me - not that there was anything to agree with. All I am doing is continuing to call you - and anyone else - out for the smearing and character attacks that you engage in instead of discussion.
Yes, I have been endorsing that all along. I also think we should be slower to engage in more invasive techniques. Your problem is that 1) you go along with what suits you politically and 2) anyone who isn't in 100% obedient lockstep with your orthodoxy is a bigot who should be shunned and shamed. (For example, I predict you will dismiss everything I link below as either written by bigots or twisted by them somehow.)
Sounds like you reject the concept of gender fluidity. There may be hope for you after all.
But sometimes people are just going through stages, and I'd like to give kids, in particular, a chance to grow out of it or simply adapt. And I'm not alone.
also . . .
also
What that quote shows is that you didn't actually read or comprehend the study, much less my comments about it. The treatment protocols have dramatically improved in the last few decades, and as the study notes about the pre-1989 transition population:
Perhaps more importantly the study shows that the suicide rate was normalized for the post-1989 transition population. In other words the study itself debunks the erroneous claims which you and McHugh are making.
In other words not everyone who experiences gender dysphoria is transgender. Big duh.
The only people who seem confused on that point are those who confuse gender dysphoria with being transgender. The reality is that all kinds of kids can experience it including cisgender kids.
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That's essentially "reparative therapy" which has been discredited. Note that due to an external audit Zucker closed his clinic in 2015 and no longer practices that quackery.
Maybe we should compare the suicide rates for secular reparative therapy with the current med-psych treatment approach for gender identity, especially with proper follow up care. Anyone with more than 20 functional neurons could have foreseen the failures of reparative therapy after the failure of John Money's unethical experiment on David Reimer. You cannot possibly change the patient's psychological gender identity and convince them they are someone they aren't. This treatment is no more effective than the quacks who treat cancer with enemas, herbs, prayer and crystals.
I knew 2 people we were forced by their medical insurance company to undergo biological gender reinforcement therapy in the late 1980s because it was cheap and there were no medical precedents preventing it. They are both now dead by suicide.
That doesn't surprise me at all but I'm sorry to hear it. The program which Ken Zucker and Susan Bradley ran was clearly abusive, and that's before you consider the severe psychological trauma caused by a program literally designed to cause gender dysphoria. The latest controversy about Zucker was this:
The Dr went out of his way to use male pronouns, criticize any androgynous grooming, dress or mannerisms, encourage sexual behavior and even to use hypnotism to implant ideas.
You're talking about a cohort that was studied up until 2003. That's 15 years ago, not "decades." A decade is ten years, so "decades" - at minimum - would be 20 years. I feel it necessary at this point to inform you that 15, being less than 20, does not qualify as "decades." I don't know everything, but I can add by tens.
Furthermore, the report was published in February of 2011. That doesn't even qualify as one decade. If you can't be honest about a simple thing like the date of a report, maybe we should not proceed.
The population studied transitioned between 1973-2003. That is indeed decades out of date due to the recent advances in treatment protocol. And as noted above there's a huge difference in the suicide rates of the pre-1989 vs the post-1989 population. With the latter group the suicide rate is the same as the general population.
But more importantly the study's author notes that the study directly contradicts the claims which you and McHugh have made, and she also notes that bigots like McHugh never cite the study's clearly stated limitations. I note that you didn't cite them either since they directly undermine the point you thought you were making.
Big duh, my left butt cheek. You admit that, but you still want to treat them like the opposite sex, including radical lifestyle changes, hormone treatments, surgery and brainwashing to pretend they are something they aren't. And this all spins out of what a kid tells us. A kid who really doesn't know anything about sex, a kid who isn't done developing.
Here's a question: What's the limit? Do you have one? Can a kid say anything and as long as she's persistent we'll all just go with it? What if she thinks she's a cat? "Oh that's stupid," you'll say. "You're arguing a straw man now. It would never get that bad."
Uh huh:
Woman says she is a cat trapped in the wrong body - she hisses at dogs, hates water and claims she can even see better at night
Yeah, that could never happen.
That is not quite true.
In other words: politics (the scientific variety) shut down a successful clinic that sought to treat children with therapy instead of hormones and surgery. There's nothing in this process that says Zucker wasn't successful in his treatments or that he was causing harm to children. In fact, I'll reference a note from above:
That's important, by the way. A lot of these studies that claim transitioning, including surgery and HRT are beneficial are short term follow-ups of only a year or so. The people I have cited have been tracking patients for 20 and 30 years. That's a lot more revealing.
There is clearly still a lot of disagreement among educated experts who have done real work with real patients. Professionals disagree all the time about how best to do or think about things. For example,
In a Planet-or-Not Debate, Some Astronomers Say "Long Live Planet Pluto"
Some majority of a board makes a decision and they make it for the whole organization, but that doesn't mean only bigoted quacks disagree. And consensus is neither proof nor science. And neither is majority rule. There is room for differing opinions on this topic, unless you're one of the Thought Police.
No, you're talking nonsense. You WANT a population to be studied for 30 years. That's how you get meaningful results.
Ummmm......that's why there's a more recent and thus more directly relevant study which shows that the Dutch protocol results in a normalized suicide rate and life satisfaction equal to or exceeding the general population. I've cited that study several times here, but you apparently prefer to cite and deliberately misrepresent older studies.
Wrong and deliberately misrepresentative of the discussion here. It's clear that you know very little about this topic, probably because you've been getting all your info from hate groups and anti-LGBT activists like McHugh.
What it means is that gender specialists evaluate and counsel kids and their parents for quite some time to determine if they really are transgender. That's before taking baby steps like a social transition (something which many trans kids will already have done at home and perhaps at school or in other public settings). Next might come puberty blockers, something which is completely reversible merely by ceasing their use but which allow the child additional time to mature and decide whether they really want to try cross-sex hormone replacement therapy. And it eliminates the psychological trauma and very high suicide risk of a discordant puberty. Any subsequent gender reassignment surgery is usually only done as an adult, or rarely at 16-17 with parental consent or with court approval for legally emancipated minors. Currently most transgender folks currently don't ever get surgery of any kind (and if they do it's usually top surgery), but that might change as insurance coverage and GRS techniques improve and anti-trans bias in the medical system decreases.
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LOL.....this is about gender identity not sex. Your comment was profoundly ignorant but very revealing that you don't even grasp the basic issues.
Feel free to continue to whine about transgender folks and the medical specialists who help them. They'll just continue to ignore you and the bigoted bible-babblers who try to harm them. And I can guarantee that the science will continue to ignore your superstitions, as will a growing number of parents who are wise enough to look at the hard reality of the suicide stats - the fact that treating kids discordantly to their actual gender identity causes a very high risk of suicide. That's why pretty much all relevant medical organizations have condemned the "conversion therapy" quackery in which Zucker was involved.
So how many "species reparative" clinics have sprung up in response? A four year old might say he’s a dog or a cat but does Zucker go out and open a “Species Identity Clinic” under the auspices of CAMH? No, because he clearly knows that there is a difference between that and the well-established clinical entity of gender dysphoria and the neurological trait of gender identity.
FYI, neither the transgender folks, their parents or the medical practitioners are going to wait another 30 years to treat the condition because there's a person who needs help now. Their going to use the best medical advice available at the time, and while that certainly does change it's worth noting that it's changing away from what you advocate. In fact the quackery you support is being banned in many states and cities and is about to be entirely banned in Canada. In fact the quackery Zucker was engaged in was banned in Ontario in 2015.
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Actually science is what closed the clinic. Not only had Zucker never conducted any studies to evaluate the success of his approach but pretty much all the current studies indicate that such an approach is harmful and increases the suicide rate.
I know you think you're bringing up cogent points, but you're not. I readily acknowledge that the political winds are blowing against this kind of treatment, but banning something doesn't make it wrong. This clinic treated hundreds of people, but you would have me believe there were legions of dead bodies lined up as a result. That's simply not the case.
And it's pretty fascist and 1984 of you to go around accusing people of bigotry just because you disagree with them. One thing is for sure: it's unscientific as hell. Above all, you have been exceedingly closed minded in this "discussion."
By the way: Explain Pluto. You're dishonest if you refuse to acknowledge the controversial nature of the issue. So, for the people who think Pluto is a planet: Are they quack astronomers? Are they bigots? Do they hate science?
It's being banned because it's been shown to be harmful and to increase the suicide risk and other kinds of self-harm. It's also now being treated as commercial fraud as well as malpractice.
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Actually we don't know that since Zucker never studied the efficacy of his so-called "therapy". What we do know is that it was considered far outside the mainstream and that it consisted of rather abusive and coercive treatment - things which would cause trauma in transgender kids. Not only does it sound exactly like the sort of "reparative therapy" quackery practiced by anti-LGBT hate groups like NARTH, but the two independent psychiatrists who reviewed the clinics operation "were unable to ascertain whether the clinic was in fact practising reparative therapy". So it must have either come very close to that discredited practice or it consisted of techniques which had no basis in peer-reviewed literature and thus couldn't be formally assessed. Or more likely the reviewers were trying to do Zucker the professional courtesy of not labeling him a quack. We also know that Zucker was very closely involved with the religious nuts at the NARTH hate group and was frequently cited by them. Zucker was in fact the last "respectable" practitioner of the coercive "reparative therapy" quackery and the investigation proved it. That's really why Zucker and Bradley were fired and their clinic closed.
At least CAMH had the decency to investigate after there were serious complaints, and CAMH made an honest admission about it:
A child doesn't need to know about sex. Most people don't become aware of their sexual orientation until they are 10-12. A child certainly knows if they are male or female before they start school and when their internal feelings of gender identity do not line up with what others tell them they are they sense that there is a problem and verbalize something. They don't know that what they verbalized is unusual but caring parent knows that something is wrong and takes them to a qualified medical specialist to have the situation checked out.
Transgendered patients aren't delusional because they don't think that they are inanimate objects, other people or animals. The feelings are confined only to their mind-body gender mismatch. Conservatives made this same slippery slope argument to oppose LGBT marriage when they argued that if LGBT marriage is legal where does it stop? They claimed that if the law allowed them to marry people of the same gender will they also permit them to marry trees, farm equipment or their pet/farm animals? This argument didn't work then and the same fallacious argument won't work now. Conservatives might want to think of something original in the future because they've worn this argument out because it was also used to oppose interracial marriage and even equal rights for African-Americans.
Why is the subject of LGBT rights so personal for you? Is this about preserving Biblical influence in America? How many people have to die from variations on reparative therapy that tries to reinforce their physical gender for you to change your mind and admit that you are wrong?
Here's more on Zucker's quackery and his firing:
What a bunch of assholes.
Seriously though, a bunch of grown ass adults cyber-bullying a 12 year old? What the fuck?
Trump has unleashed the "hate" monster and emboldened those who now feel free to act out their prejudice and hatred.
America no longer can teach their own children Christian tolerance for others because Trump has torn all decorum down and burned it to the ground.
Any language, any behavior, any bullying, any prejudice is to be tolerated, as long as Trump can publicly trash talk his own appointees, bully people of color, bully women, and attack in unhinged Twitter rants, then Americans think behaving that way is normal now.
While I get your drift the fact is that Christianity and conservative Christian extremism are a very large part of the reason anti-trans views exist (which is true of any superstition with rigid gender norms). That predates Trump as do the open threats of violence against trans kids and the murders of trans folks by transphobic bigots.
But it says a lot about Christian conservatives that they'd vote for a bigot like Trump, one who so freely expresses racist, homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, xenophobic and Islamophobic views. It's like he's unleashed the conservative id and it's quite an ugly demon.
Are you accusing me of something?
Please delete the bubblegum.
Feels like home
"Maddie had been using the staff bathroom at her old school but used the girls’ bathroom at the new school because she wasn’t sure where the staff bathroom was. "
I have one question. Why hasn't a teacher or school official shown Maddie where the staff bathroom is?
Don't they want her in there?
That was her first day in an unfamiliar school but why should the girl be forced to use the staff restroom rather than the girl's restroom? Not only is that stigmatizing but it disregards the medical advice she would have been given, and it also likely violates HIPAA rules.
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Sounds like you didn't read the seed or any of the linked articles.
No, that is a fair question. If I'm the school principal, I would have her use the staff restroom for her own safety and out of consideration for everyone else as well. No issues, no news that way.
And that way you don't traumatize all the girls in the school either.
Makes sense
Really, "no issues"? Stigmatizing trans kids by forcing them to use the staff restroom or a gender-discordant restroom is one of the things which drives up their suicide rate, and it's directly contrary to the best medical advice.
So I guess there are no issues if you don't give a crap about the health and longevity of these kids.
It would seem that you are only interested in the sensibilities of this one student. What about all the girls going to the school? What about their well being? Don't like women?
None of the other students are harmed by the presence of transgender kids. And as this case shows it's usually just bigoted conservative parents who have an issue with it.
You speak for them?
Can they use the staff restroom?
That may be the solution! Let Maddie have the ladies room and let the girls choose between the ladies room and the staff restroom. What do you say to that?
I think the bigots are those who hate middle America.
The claims that other kids or their privacy rights are harmed by the presence of transgender kids have been evaluated and consistently rejected by the courts.
However it does echo the moronic claims made by the racists who supported whites-only public restrooms due to privacy and safety concerns.
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In essence that is the solution - you let kids potty where they feel they fit in best, and if they want extra privacy they can use a gender-neutral single occupancy restroom. That's what adults do too.
Finally, we found common ground
You might not have understood my comment or the updated version of it.
Oh yes, I see now, you updated it to call a whole lot of people racists. Kind of a sweeping generalization.
So the rights & feelings of all the kids have been evaluated by the courts? Iv'e got a feeling you won't be able to depend on the circuit courts anymore.
I know what you would like. Why not have all the girls come into the ladies room at the same time and bow down, stark naked before Maddie? That would send a message, wouldn't it?
There does seem to be a close tie between social conservative outrage on the current issue and the historic social conservative support for racially segregated restrooms. Same bogus memes too about imaginary threats of sexual assault, and the same faux concern about women (or at least cisgender white women since the confederate states didn't bother with gender-segregation for black folks).
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What's been evaluated and rejected are the bogus claims made by bigoted conservatives and the hate groups which have filed legal complaints, like the ADF.
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So even you're able to acknowledge that Trump has been appointing bigots to the courts?
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You have some rather peculiar fantasies about children.
What is the problem? You seem to think that the transgirl is a threat to her CIS classmates when the truth is the other way around.
Why would they bow down to her? Is she a goddess?
What do you believe Maddie would do if that would possibly happen? Your answer will be very telling.
Here's a very good update to the story - one of the more violent bigoted conservatives turns out to be a commercial pilot for Frontier and the company has suspended him while they verify the allegations that he made threats against a child:
Goodbye, job!
One more scumbag gets outed.
Geez. People make a big deal of of the mundane.
Back in my day, the bathroom was used for smoking.
Actually I could care less who is standing next to me at the trough or sitting in a stall.
Not a big deal people, everyone needs to go.
If I had to go, I would use the restroom with a man or woman. I would not care.
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removed for context
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Sometimes people just need to lighten up. Unclench the buttcheecks, so to speak. No matter who is in the next stall. A courtesy flush here and there would be nice though.
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You may not want to use that turn of phrase around Eagle, you're likely to get a lengthy dissertation on the ills of butt play...
Potty issues have always been a problem in the Jim Crow states and the bible-babble belt where they're still not over the insult of being forced to share the restroom with non-whites. Funny how they fret about what other people might be hiding in their pants. Elsewhere in the world gender neutral restrooms are becoming the norm.
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So true!