How the Left Keeps Me Religious

  
Via:  make-america-great-again  •  2 months ago  •  81 comments

How the Left Keeps Me Religious
The God-centered West produced Bach and Michelangelo. The left, which dominates music and art, has produced mostly junk; there is nothing higher to aspire to, as excellence is not a left-wing value and the left uses art to shock, not inspire. Hence the huge amount of scatological art, for example.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Nothing keeps me religious more than the left, not even religion itself.

I am not even particularly "spiritual." My religiosity is overwhelmingly rational (the title of my Bible commentary is "The Rational Bible"). I believe in God because creation rationally suggests a Creator.

The force that has most propelled me to religion is the great (secular) religion of the last hundred years: the left. If most people of the left (the left, not liberalism) -- people who have not only rejected but scorned God, Judaism, Christianity and the Bible -- were decent individuals, were committed to intellectual honesty and had produced some great art and works of wisdom, leftism would have constituted a serious challenge to my religious beliefs.

But the very opposite is the case. While liberals have done some good, everything the left has touched it has ruined. The most obvious example is universities. As Harvard professor Steven Pinker, a liberal and an atheist, put it, the left has rendered the universities a "laughingstock."

The most godless, religion-free and Bible-free institution in the West, the university, has become the both the stupidest and most morally corrupt institution in the West. That is what first awakened me to the indispensability of God, religion and the Bible. I first wrote about it some 25 years ago ("How I found God at Columbia").

Our universities, because of the left, are intellectually and morally sick. And if that is not a result of their antipathy to the Bible, its God and Judeo-Christian thought, what is it the result of?

Let's begin with the moral. The left and the universities teach gullible young students lies, immoral ideas and foolish doctrines. At almost any university in the English-speaking world, the United States -- arguably the most decent large society in history -- is depicted as a vile society, founded by bigots who engaged in genocidal evil, sustained by racism, misogyny, xenophobia and greed. Its wars are depicted as racist and imperialist. Students are taught that it is a racist "microaggression" to say that "There is only one race: the human race" or "America is a land of opportunity" or "I try to treat everyone the same." At universities, minority students are taught that they are hated by all white Americans -- perhaps the greatest libel since the medieval blood libel that charged Jews with killing Christian children to use their blood for Passover matzos.

The universities teach that in the conflict between Israel and Hamas, it is humane, democratic, liberal Israel that is the villain, not the totalitarian genocidal theocrats of Hamas. I debated this very issue at Oxford University, where my opponents, two left-wing academics, argued that between Israel and Hamas, Israel was the greater threat to Middle East peace.

The godless left and universities teach there is no male and female in the human species, that these terms are mere "social constructs." A few weeks ago, two trans females came in first and second place in a Connecticut high school track race. These runners won solely because they were biological males. Yet, not only they were allowed to race against females, but they also set new records in Connecticut girls track. Anyone who complained this was unfair -- which to every non-leftist it was -- was attacked by the left as "haters." A writer for The Nation defended the male bodies that won the races because, in his moronic words, "trans women are in fact women" (italics added). As I showed in my last column, truth has never been a left-wing value.

Moreover, I could not find one "feminist" organization that defended the girl runners of Connecticut. Feminism is no more interested in protecting women than communism was in protecting workers.

The left is also the Western home of contemporary anti-Semitism. There are individual anti-Semites across the political spectrum, but the incubator of modern anti-Semitism is the left. Thanks to leftists such as Jeremy Corbyn, the head of the British Labour Party, and the two new female Muslim members of the U.S. Congress, anti-Semitism is becoming respectable in the West for the first time since the Holocaust. The left has rendered Zionism, the oldest national movement in history -- the 2,000-year-old Jewish aspiration to return to Israel -- a term of opprobrium. While many individuals continue to support Zionism, the one non-Jewish group to continue to defend it is the evangelical Christian community.

As I show in my commentary on Genesis, what the first book of the Bible depicts is not only God's creation of the world but, equally important, God's shaping primordial chaos (Genesis 1:2) into order. The divine order consists of distinctions; prominent examples include man and God, man and animal, male and female, good and evil, holy and profane, parent and child. The left is a war against order; in its essence, leftism creates chaos. It has worked to destroy all those biblical distinctions. The present giveaway is the nihilist project of the left to erase the male-female distinction, the only innate human distinction God cares about: "God created mankind in his own image ...male and female he created them" (Genesis 1:27); "He created them male and femaleand blessed them" (Genesis 5:2). No ethnic or racial distinction matters in Genesis; only the male-female distinction.

The God-centered West produced Bach and Michelangelo. The left, which dominates music and art, has produced mostly junk; there is nothing higher to aspire to, as excellence is not a left-wing value and the left uses art to shock, not inspire. Hence the huge amount of scatological art, for example.

Belief in God and the Bible were instrumental to the creation of America, the last, best hope of mankind. The rejection of that God and that Bible are instrumental to wrecking America (and the rest of the West). That alone tells me how important that God and that Bible are. The left knows it, too.

Dennis Prager is a nationally syndicated radio talk-show host and columnist. His latest book, published by Regnery in April 2018, is "The Rational Bible," a commentary on the book of Exodus. He is the founder of Prager University and may be contacted at dennisprager.com.













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XXJefferson#51
1  seeder  XXJefferson#51    2 months ago

“I am not even particularly "spiritual." My religiosity is overwhelmingly rational (the title of my Bible commentary is "The Rational Bible"). I believe in God because creation rationally suggests a Creator.

The force that has most propelled me to religion is the great (secular) religion of the last hundred years: the left. If most people of the left (the left, not liberalism) -- people who have not only rejected but scorned God, Judaism, Christianity and the Bible -- were decent individuals, were committed to intellectual honesty and had produced some great art and works of wisdom, leftism would have constituted a serious challenge to my religious beliefs.

But the very opposite is the case. While liberals have done some good, everything the left has touched it has ruined. The most obvious example is universities. As Harvard professor Steven Pinker, a liberal and an atheist, put it, the left has rendered the universities a "laughingstock."

The most godless, religion-free and Bible-free institution in the West, the university, has become the both the stupidest and most morally corrupt institution in the West. That is what first awakened me to the indispensability of God, religion and the Bible. I first wrote about it some 25 years ago ("How I found God at Columbia").

Our universities, because of the left, are intellectually and morally sick. And if that is not a result of their antipathy to the Bible, its God and Judeo-Christian thought, what is it the result of?

Let's begin with the moral. The left and the universities teach gullible young students lies, immoral ideas and foolish doctrines. At almost any university in the English-speaking world, the United States -- arguably the most decent large society in history -- is depicted as a vile society, founded by bigots who engaged in genocidal evil, sustained by racism, misogyny, xenophobia and greed. Its wars are depicted as racist and imperialist. Students are taught that it is a racist "microaggression" to say that "There is only one race: the human race" or "America is a land of opportunity" or "I try to treat everyone the same." At universities, minority students are taught that they are hated by all white Americans -- perhaps the greatest libel since the medieval blood libel that charged Jews with killing Christian children to use their blood for Passover matzos.

The universities teach that in the conflict between Israel and Hamas, it is humane, democratic, liberal Israel that is the villain, not the totalitarian genocidal theocrats of Hamas. I debated this very issue at Oxford University, where my opponents, two left-wing academics, argued that between Israel and Hamas, Israel was the greater threat to Middle East peace.”

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
2  seeder  XXJefferson#51    2 months ago

Dennis Prager is right on. The secular progressive left and the traditional values defenders are in a battle for the life and soul of the west and America. The left is a clear and present danger to all that we believe in and hold dear.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
3  seeder  XXJefferson#51    2 months ago

The secular progressive left is the focus of all that is evil and of no good in American politics.  

 
 
 
luther28
4  luther28    2 months ago

How the Left Keeps Me Religious

I suppose there has to be someone to blame.

 
 
 
JBB
5  JBB    2 months ago

If your faith is sustained by trolling liberals it is a lousy brand of religion...

 
 
 
katrix
5.1  katrix  replied to  JBB @5    2 months ago

Jesus wouldn't even know some of his so-called followers.  They go against everything he taught and preached.

 
 
 
JBB
5.1.1  JBB  replied to  katrix @5.1    2 months ago

Many who merely claim to follow Christ plainly betray Him multiple times dailyand for their own ungodly political aims no less. They use the Name of God to advocate for torturing people, for discrimination, for war and for state sponsored executions and even worse in support of giving even more worldly power and wealth to the already unconscionably rich and powerful butt they advocate against helping the poor and the disadvantaged, "In The Name of God". Christ would have abhorred that shit...

 
 
 
katrix
5.1.2  katrix  replied to  JBB @5.1.1    2 months ago

It also seems like they don't actually place much faith in, or trust, God.  They seem to think they should pretend they are gods and discriminate and persecute others, as if their God wouldn't be perfectly capable of dealing with it himself if he really, for example, gave a shit what humans do in bed with other consenting adults.  It's as if they never even read their bible and studied Jesus' actions and who he hung out with.

 
 
 
JBB
5.1.3  JBB  replied to  katrix @5.1.2    2 months ago

If Jesus Christ sought refuge at our boarder they would deny Him...

 
 
 
Sparty On
5.1.4  Sparty On  replied to  JBB @5.1.3    2 months ago

Nah, he'd do it legally so he'd be fine.

Less emotion, more reason please.

 
 
 
JBB
5.1.5  JBB  replied to  Sparty On @5.1.4    2 months ago

People seeking refuge at our southern boarder are doing so legally...

 
 
 
Sparty On
5.1.6  Sparty On  replied to  JBB @5.1.5    2 months ago

Some are, some aren't.

Regardless, a highly debatable topic.

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
5.1.7  seeder  XXJefferson#51  replied to  Sparty On @5.1.4    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
5.1.8  seeder  XXJefferson#51  replied to  katrix @5.1.2    2 months ago

It is the secular pro science progressive who put themselves in the place of God and try to play god in dealing with those of us who presume to dare to disagree with them. 

 
 
 
luther28
5.1.9  luther28  replied to  XXJefferson#51 @5.1.7    2 months ago
Emotion and lack of reason are the trademarks of the so called pro science secular progressive.

I have to ask the question I suppose:

So you consider the creation in a six day span reasonable?

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
5.1.10  seeder  XXJefferson#51  replied to  Sparty On @5.1.4    2 months ago

Exactly.  Less emotion and more reason from some on the other side would be appreciated.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
5.1.11  seeder  XXJefferson#51  replied to  luther28 @5.1.9    2 months ago

Absolutely yes.  100% and entirely reasonable and the pro science position since God is the author of science and nature as well.  And I stand by all of what you quoted as well. That is me here as a newsTalkers member speaking my mind.  

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
5.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JBB @5    2 months ago
If your faith is sustained by trolling liberals it is a lousy brand of religion...

That's all they have left. They've been awaiting the arrival of their messiah for more than 2000 years now so to distract from their own failings and lack of faith they create a straw man villain out of any non-Christians. And all they have to attack with is unfounded opinion. Rarely do I see a seed so completely devoid of any facts. For example:

"The most godless, religion-free and Bible-free institution in the West, the university, has become the both the stupidest and most morally corrupt institution in the West. "

Really? Care to site examples Dennis? Or are you such a dumb shit you're going to just lump every University into the same bag and attempt the age old ridicule of higher education that is born from ignorance and worthless religious indoctrination.

"The left and the universities teach gullible young students lies, immoral ideas and foolish doctrines."

More worthless opinion without a single fact.

"At almost any university in the English-speaking world, the United States -- arguably the most decent large society in history -- is depicted as a vile society, founded by bigots who engaged in genocidal evil, sustained by racism, misogyny, xenophobia and greed."

Bullshit. They teach facts. If you can't stand hearing the facts about our actual history of slavery, segregation, imperialism and the excuses made by those who claimed to be religious God fearing men who justified their racism, misogyny and greed, then maybe you don't deserve to live in the greatest most diverse nation on earth.

"At universities, minority students are taught that they are hated by all white Americans"

That one is hilarious to any actual minority. They don't need any university professors to tell them how a large section of white America treats them.

"The left is also the Western home of contemporary anti-Semitism."

Pure bullshit. Just because someone doesn't see any difference between a Hamas rocket killing innocent Israeli's and an Israeli rocket killing innocent Palestinians, it doesn't make them an anti-Semite. Now if you believe there are no innocent Palestinians, then maybe the problem isn't with any sort of Antisemitism but anti-Arab sentiments and hate you harbor.

"The divine order consists of distinctions; prominent examples include man and God, man and animal, male and female, good and evil, holy and profane, parent and child. The left is a war against order; in its essence, leftism creates chaos. It has worked to destroy all those biblical distinctions."

So without the bible, there is but chaos and disorder? So all those billions of people who have been born and raised in places that had no access to the bibles teachings must have lived in pure chaos, right? Try telling that to the ancient Chinese who were far more sophisticated and cultured than their western contemporaries for thousands of years.

"The left, which dominates music and art, has produced mostly junk; there is nothing higher to aspire to, as excellence is not a left-wing value and the left uses art to shock, not inspire."

Oh please, now he's an art critic? What a worthless piece of shit. I guess the old saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" should add "And those with no ability, talent or intelligence bitch about those who can and who teach".

"If most people of the left" "were decent individuals, were committed to intellectual honesty and had produced some great art and works of wisdom, leftism would have constituted a serious challenge to my religious beliefs."

Would have? It's obviously constituted a "serious challenge" because this dip shit author Dennis Prager can't stop whining about being a "victim" of the so-called "left".

"Belief in God and the Bible were instrumental to the creation of America, the last, best hope of mankind."

Can you get any more sniveling, self centered and haughty? The sheer hubris of that comment is astounding. 

"The rejection of that God and that Bible are instrumental to wrecking America (and the rest of the West)."

Oh the wreckage! These damned leftist liberals have wrecked slavery, segregation, the bans on interracial marriage, the bans on women and blacks voting, bans on LGTBQ Americans from accessing the same civil rights as any other American! They sure made a mess of this supposedly Christian established nation all right. /s

Frankly, I couldn't care less if you're a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist or atheist, America is a nation for all people and all faiths. Diversity is a good thing, not an attack on Christianity no matter how badly some want to play the victim. As any honest Christian will tell you, they appreciate the freedoms they have in America and considering Christianity has been woven into almost every aspect of secular life, they recognize that far from being persecuted, they actually enjoy a pedestal of privilege in America. Sadly, for some, the wise old saying rings true, "When You’re Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression". Dennis Prager obviously was accustomed to some serious privilege and now feels the need to lash out at those threatening what he sees as a Christian right to dominate and lord it over others claiming to be the origin of all morality.

 
 
 
JBB
5.2.1  JBB  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @5.2    2 months ago

Agreed...

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
5.2.2  seeder  XXJefferson#51  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @5.2    2 months ago

Yes, a supposedly privileged Jew who wants Christians to lord it over him.  Not!  He even said he wasn’t particularly spiritual.  

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
5.2.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  XXJefferson#51 @5.2.2    2 months ago

Dennis Prager writes like a right-wing Christian

You know who hated jazz and Pablo Picasso because they were "modern" and considered degenerate art?

Hitler

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
5.3  seeder  XXJefferson#51  replied to  JBB @5    2 months ago

He is not particularly religious or as he said, spiritual.  He simply recognized the value of religion and its values in our founding and our culture.  He sees secularists and progressives as destructive and opposed to all that is good in our culture and civilization.  They are a clear and present danger to all that we hold dear.  

 
 
 
katrix
5.3.1  katrix  replied to  XXJefferson#51 @5.3    2 months ago
They are a clear and present danger to all that we hold dear.  

Of course they are, for people who hold dear their desire to discriminate against and persecute others, and who have really weird obsessions with what other people do in bed.

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
5.3.2  seeder  XXJefferson#51  replied to  katrix @5.3.1    2 months ago

It is the pro science secular left so called progressive  humanists that are the persecutors in today’s America.  

 
 
 
Veronica
6  Veronica    2 months ago

Huh, and here I thought their faith was supposed to do that.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
6.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Veronica @6    2 months ago

maybe they're not praying hard or often enough?

 
 
 
Veronica
6.1.1  Veronica  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1    2 months ago

I think when they pray too hard they get tornadoes....

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
6.1.2  seeder  XXJefferson#51  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1    2 months ago

There is some truth to that as too many Christians have become so in name only being a part of the world and compromising faith with it instead of being and living apart from it while witnessing to it.  

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
6.1.3  seeder  XXJefferson#51  replied to  Veronica @6.1.1    2 months ago

Natural disasters are just that.  Natural results of a sin wrecked currently imperfect world.  

 
 
 
Veronica
6.1.4  Veronica  replied to  XXJefferson#51 @6.1.3    2 months ago

I see... so when good things happen it is your god, but when bad things happen it is either Mother Nature or Satan.  What a fucking crock.

 
 
 
katrix
6.1.5  katrix  replied to  XXJefferson#51 @6.1.3    2 months ago
Natural results of a sin wrecked currently imperfect world

It's a shame you think your God is such a bumbling fool that it created an imperfect world.

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.1.6  Sparty On  replied to  katrix @6.1.5    2 months ago

God doesn't bumble.  

Mankind however does bumble on a regular basis

 
 
 
katrix
6.1.7  katrix  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.6    2 months ago

If God is as described by MAGA, I'd say he's clearly a bumbler. 

The God my mom believes in, on the other hand, is not. 

As for mankind - definitely!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
6.1.8  Trout Giggles  replied to  katrix @6.1.7    2 months ago

But mankind doesn't create hurricanes, tornadoes, or earthquakes.

You would think that a perfect god would have created a perfect world with no natural disasters

 
 
 
katrix
6.1.9  katrix  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.8    2 months ago

Well you see, there were no natural disasters until Eve coerced Adam into eating the apple.  Despite what geology tells us - remember that C4P is a young earther and doesn't believe in geology.  We know that long before humans existed, there were natural disasters.  Heck, we were just discussing on another thread how we found evidence of the fish who were killed by the asteroid that killed off 75% of all life, including the dinosaurs, and ended the Cretaceous.  But to a fundamentalist, and especially a young earther, there were no diseases or natural disasters or anything like that until the original sin.  Oh, and animals didn't eat each other until then, either.  They all ate plants, including T Rex.  Now why animals and plants would get diseases or start eating each other (I assume this includes Venus Flytraps) because of men sinning is another matter - but then, the god MAGA believes in is clearly not concerned with collateral damage, isn't capable of rational thought, and doesn't give a crap who it punishes when it gets in a jealous rage.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
6.1.10  Trout Giggles  replied to  katrix @6.1.9    2 months ago

T. Rex was a vegan?????

 
 
 
katrix
6.1.11  katrix  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.10    2 months ago

Until we sinned.  You see, dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, if you're a young earther.

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.12  TᵢG  replied to  katrix @6.1.11    2 months ago

I think the YECs hold that all animals were vegetarians until they left the ark.   At that point in time some 'evolved' into carnivores.

You know how it works, when one's religion backs one into a logical corner, utterly stupid declarations emerge.    The YECs had to explain the food source for carnivores and the preservation of the breeding pairs so ... viola ... all creatures are vegetarians until they leave the ark.

AiG even devised an explanation for how Noah, et. al. dealt with animal waste disposal.

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.13  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson#51 @6.1.3    2 months ago
Natural disasters are just that.  Natural results of a sin wrecked currently imperfect world.  

You know, KAG, God is omniscient and omnipotent.   So God made Adam & Eve knowing full well that they would disobey and thus knowing full well that he would cast them from the garden and curse their progeny.

In short, natural disasters (and all other products of sin) are all part of God's plan because God knew exactly what would happen and is the designer who lined up the dominos in the first place.

Ever consider that?

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
6.1.14  Trout Giggles  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.12    2 months ago

I heard that God caused put all the animals into a deep sleep where they didn't need to be fed or have their waste disposed of.

If you're into magical thinking, that works just as good any other explanation

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.15  TᵢG  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.14    2 months ago

That is what I would have offered as an excuse if I were in the excuse-making business.   That makes the most sense.

But, then again, why even bother with the ark in the first place?   Just magic all those to be saved into a bubble (maybe an annex in Heaven), flood the planet, magic away all the water, and float the bubble back down to the now empty planet.

Or, even more directly, zap away all life you dislike and leave that which you wish to save.   That way all the plants could survive to feed all those vegetarians.

God certainly does things the hard way.   The best example of that is the human sacrifice of Jesus where God effectively allows Himself (Jesus; an hypostasis) killed by His creations so that He can forgive His creations — atonement for their sins.   God needs a human sacrifice?    How about skipping the drama, the human sacrifice, etc. and go directly to forgiveness?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
6.1.16  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.1.14    2 months ago
If you're into magical thinking, that works just as good any other explanation

With magic, the only limitation is your imagination.

It is rather funny listening to YEC's get all excited about what they ignorantly perceive to be a piece of physical evidence that supports their claims like finding fish fossils on high mountain slopes (even though anyone with a cursory knowledge of our planets geography knows mountains were once sea floor that has been shoved up by tectonic plate movement) and they jump up and down with it "Ha! See the flood is real! Physical evidence proves it!". Yet when confronted by facts that can't be reasoned in any way to support their hypothesis they retreat to "Well, God can do anything, so he could make those fossils appear older, or maybe it was Satan trying to trick mankind". 

So they latch onto any physical evidence they imagine supports their claims, but when confronted with evidence that directly contradicts their claims they whip out their universal "God magic" tool saying nothing is impossible for their God. What I find funny is that why did they bother with the physical evidence they believed supported their claims at all if they were just going to use magic to get to their desired conclusion anyway? Why even bother studying the natural world at all if they are going to use such a dishonest tactic to claim victory in the debate?

 
 
 
katrix
6.1.17  katrix  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.15    2 months ago
Or, even more directly, zap away all life you dislike and leave that which you wish to save. 

That would have made the most sense.

 
 
 
katrix
6.1.18  katrix  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.12    2 months ago
I think the YECs hold that all animals were vegetarians until they left the ark. 

I've heard that, too, along with the original sin story.  Apparently they can't agree on their own dogma.

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.1.19  Sparty On  replied to  katrix @6.1.7    2 months ago

Well, i see a whole lot a bumbling going on here right now ..... jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.20  TᵢG  replied to  katrix @6.1.18    2 months ago

That is why I have a hard time accepting the notion that Ken Ham, et. al. believes his own bullshit.   How can one deliver so many bend-over-backward-stupid explanations without realizing the tortured logic in play?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
6.1.21  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.20    2 months ago
How can one deliver so many bend-over-backward-stupid explanations without realizing the tortured logic in play?

Listening to Ken Hamm does sort of remind me of those Cheese-It commercials where one person asks "How did they get so much cheese in there?" to which the other person replies something like "They shoot it in there with tiny fighter jets...". It's so ridiculous its funny, unless of course you find out the person making the claim really believes it... then it just gets sad.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
6.1.22  livefreeordie  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.13    2 months ago

[deleted]  God foreknowing does not necessarily equal God planning or desiring for something to occur. It can and does occur but not in all circumstances

God's foreknowledge does NOT equate to predestined in every circumstance

As thorough an examination as I've found over the years by Dr Michael Heiser

God predestinates events, but he does not predestinate all events.  He certainly does not predestinate events that never happen (else they would have been predestinated). He also does NOT predestinate all events that DO happen. Chapter 4 is devoted to an explanation of this view.

3. The idea that God does not predestinate all events that do happen (especially the fall, sin, and evil-doing) is based upon the biblical fact that foreknowledge does NOT necessitate predestination. Put another way, just because God can foreknow an event, that is no guarantee he predestinated the event. How? Because as 1 Samuel 23:1-14 shows us very clearly, foreknowledge does not result in or necessitate predestination. In that passage, God foreknows things that never happen because human decisions change the circumstances. Very simply, God foreknew things that never happened. This tells us that foreknowing things does not necessitate their predestination. Here’s the idea in a syllogism:

  • God foreknows ALL events

  • God foreknows events that never happen

  • Therefore, the fact that God foreknows and event doesn’t require that it will come to pass.

  • Therefore, there is no cause and effect relationship between foreknowledge and predestination.

The entrance of sin into the world were foreknown by God. That doesn’t mean that he predestinated sin’s occurrence.

6. Sin’s entrance into the world and all acts of evil exist because humans and divine beings have free will.  Free will (freedom; freedom to make choices between alternatives, including alternatives that God would not be pleased with) is an attribute humans share with God.  Since we are God’s imagers-his representatives on earth to be steward-kings over the earth-we must have this ability.  If there is no free will, there is no imaging of God.  To remove free will from us would be to undo our status as imagers-it would be taking away the imaging status given to us (all humans) by God himself. Freedom and imaging are inseparably linked; it is foundational to our being like God.

7. Since Adam and Eve were created beings and not God, they were lesser beings. They lacked omnipotence and omniscience and wisdom to the degree God has them. Since they were not God, it was possible for them to use their freedom-to make a choice-that was not what God would make.  When tempted, they did so and fell in Eden.

  1. God deemed granting free will to humans preferable to not giving them free will and making them automatons or robots (i.e., making them incapable of making a choice that God would not have been pleased with). Alienation from God would be the conduit for humankind learning things about God that would be unknowable without the entrance of sin (forgiveness, redemption, displeasure, judgment, etc.).

All acts of evil extend from the combination of our fallen, imperfect condition plus the will to choose to sin. God does not predestinate these decisions, though he foreknows them. God never prompts us to sin; he never predestinates that we sin.  We sin because we are corrupt and fallen.  The fault is ours, not God’s.  Thus in biblical theodicy (why is there evil), there is evil because God gave us free will and we abused it.  Free will in itself is not evil, since God has free will.  How that free will is used is the issue. God bears no responsibility for the fall and our sin, since free will is not evil in and of itself as an attribute of God.

13. After the fall, God is at work to redeem humankind. He does this through the use of his Spirit, his Word, human beings, and divine beings (e.g., angels). His work is one of influencing human beings to make the right choices based on the revelation he gives; to respond correctly to the light he has given.

  1. God has the ability to turn any act of evil toward the end of all things as he has desired: the salvation of the elect, the reclamation of the nations, the destruction and banishment of evil, and the Ne w Heaven and Earth. THIS is my definition of sovereignty-God’s peerless control over all free decisions. Only he has the power, wisdom, and knowledge to steer the wreckage of human evil toward the good ends he desires.  To have all decisions, including the fall and evil, predestinated before any event occurred, makes God a lesser being in my view. The decked was entirely stacked and robots were making decisions that had been predestinated.”

http://drmsh.com/predestination-and-free-will-a-summary-of-the-naked-bibles-position/

 
 
 
livefreeordie
6.1.23  livefreeordie  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.15    2 months ago

God certainly does things the hard way.   The best example of that is the human sacrifice of Jesus where God effectively allows Himself (Jesus; an hypostasis) killed by His creations so that He can forgive His creations — atonement for their sins.   God needs a human sacrifice?    How about skipping the drama, the human sacrifice, etc. and go directly to forgiveness?

Because mankind requires the knowledge that sin equals death.  If there is no consequence for sin then mankind will not seek to change their status as dead to God and slaves of sin and death.
All of this goes back to the gift of free will that God uniquely gave mankind.  Mankind is not a mere robot but a free agent who can choose to live or die, choose heaven or hell.

 
 
 
katrix
6.1.24  katrix  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.19    2 months ago
Well, i see a whole lot a bumbling going on here right now .....

I find the literalist mind to be a very interesting thing - really, that of anyone who claims to know what God wants, what it's like, or how it thinks.

I asked my mom a while back what she thinks Heaven will be like.  She just sort of glowed and said "I don't know, but I know it will be wonderful!"  Which is really about the only rational response, IMO.  The idea of a corporeal God sitting on a throne, or gold-paved streets in Heaven, or playing a harp on a cloud (my mom says she'd rather go to hell than play a harp - it's a banjo or nothing!) ... not so much.  Besides, the people who think heaven will be right here on Earth at some point clearly aren't thinking about what happens when our sun turns into a red dwarf ;)

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.25  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @6.1.22    2 months ago
removed for context

Always a great way to start a post.

God foreknowing does not necessarily equal God planning or desiring for something to occur. It can and does occur but not in all circumstances

If God knows something will happen (omniscience) and God is in control (omnipotence) then when it happens, it happens because God allowed it to happen.  God arranges the dominos.   You are simply declaring what you believe while ignoring logic.

God foreknows things that never happen because human decisions change the circumstances. Very simply, God foreknew things that never happened. This tells us that foreknowing things does not necessitate their predestination.

That is fine.   But God foreknows the events that happen.   And that is what we are discussing.   God knowing that Adam & Eve would disobey Him and having full control over the beings He created means that God knew what Adam & Eve would do before He even created them.   It is like me writing an algorithm to perform an undesirable function and then blaming the function when it correct-to-its-implementation performs the undesirable function.

  • Therefore, the fact that God foreknows and event doesn’t require that it will come to pass.
  • Therefore, there is no cause and effect relationship between foreknowledge and predestination.

Truly crappy logic.   God foreknows all the possibilities.   The only way your logic works is if God cannot distinguish between the possibilities that will come to fruition and those that will not.   If God does not know what will happen then God is not omniscient.   You guys need to make up your minds.

Sin’s entrance into the world and all acts of evil exist because humans and divine beings have free will.  

Well, if the future is knowable then free will cannot exist (if your choice is known ahead of time, your 'choice' is simply an illusion).   It does not even matter who knows the future (or if anyone knows the future).   What matters is that if the future is knowable then reality is deterministic.   What seems like a choice is not a choice - it is the playing out of an extremely complex dynamic.

Bottom line, when you claim God knows the future - knows what you will do - you logically eliminate a claim of free will.   Both are not possible.   And if you wish to claim that God does not really know the future then you need to back off your claim of omniscience.


To wit,

  • If God knows what you will do (which means the future is knowable) then free will is impossible - it is simply an illusion.
  • If God does not know what you will do then free will is possible (as long as the future is not knowable)
  • If God knows what you will do and is omnipotent (meaning He could change it) then what you do is His will because He allowed to happen (and knew this before He even created you).

Figure out what you believe and try to make it fit logically.   You cannot have all your toys by simply declaring them all true.

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.26  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @6.1.23    2 months ago
Because mankind requires the knowledge that sin equals death.  If there is no consequence for sin then mankind will not seek to change their status as dead to God and slaves of sin and death.All of this goes back to the gift of free will that God uniquely gave mankind.  Mankind is not a mere robot but a free agent who can choose to live or die, choose heaven or hell.

That is supposed to explain why God does things the hard way?    For example, instead of the ark, the flood, etc. God could just wipe out the lifeforms He did not want and leave those He selected.    Also engaging in a human sacrifice of Himself (hypostasis Jesus) so that He could forgive the creature He made is clearly ridiculous.

Your answer did not address my comment.

 
 
 
Veronica
6.1.27  Veronica  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.25    2 months ago
Well, if the future is knowable then free will cannot exist.   It does not even matter who knows the future (or if anyone knows the future).   What matters is that if the future is knowable then reality is deterministic.   What seems like a choice is not a choice - it is the playing out of an extremely complex dynamic.

I have been saying that for years.  So if God knows a woman is going to terminate an unwanted pregnancy why allow the pregnancy to occur (if he thinks abortion is so awful)?  

I love how some Christians expect people to accept all their beliefs on faith even the ones that do not make any sense (walking on water, feeding the hordes, the ark) and yet dismiss other people's beliefs out of hand (Native American lore, Celtic lore).

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.28  TᵢG  replied to  Veronica @6.1.27    2 months ago

People are welcome to their beliefs, but when they state them as facts I suggest that they at least present a story that is not self-refuting.   Contradictions are proof that what is presented is not truth.

Maybe it is just me, but I am not going to believe that which contradicts itself.

 
 
 
Veronica
6.1.29  Veronica  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.28    2 months ago
People are welcome to their beliefs,

Of course they are.  I figure as long as their faith makes them happy and brings them comfort then it is a plus.  I have found though that so many people are stressed and angry when it comes to their faith.  As if someone else's different beliefs lessens their own & they strike out.  It bothers me.  

I came from a family of Catholics, my daughter still practices.  I don't denigrate her faith and she does not dismiss my own.

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.1.30  Sparty On  replied to  katrix @6.1.24    2 months ago

To each their own.   For my part I find the idea of a faithless existence to be a shell of the existence i have chosen.   As person educated and working in technical fields most of my life i've had this debate ad nauseam.   No shortage of faithless people there.   And there is really no point to it from what i've found.   I'm usually sorry when i get into one as it inevitably ends up in name calling and/or a discussion of divisive nature.   There really is no good point to it.

One of my favorite t-shirts, of which i've worn out several versions, has a picture of Buddha on it and sez:

"Don't be a dick"

 - Buddha

Good words to try and live by for everyone.   Religious or Secular.

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.1.31  Sparty On  replied to  Veronica @6.1.29    2 months ago
I have found though that so many people are stressed and angry when it comes to their faith. 

I'm really not sure that's the main cause for most people to be stressed and angry.   If it was i suppose people of no faith should all be so happy they would be whistling zippity-do-da-day out their rear ends all day, every day.   Well that and their suicide rates would be much lower, not higher.

jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
katrix
6.1.32  katrix  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.30    2 months ago

If faith works for you, that's fine.  I used to be religious and don't find anything lacking now that I no longer am, and that works for me.  But as I've mentioned before, you're not a literalist, and therefore can talk about what you think God is like or what you think Heaven would be like without claiming certainty.  And I find that kind of conversation interesting.  You don't claim that people can't be moral unless they believe in God.  And I'm pretty sure you don't think that the Tower of Babel story actually explains why we all speak different languages.

If you care to answer, what do you think Heaven is like?  Or Hell, for that matter?  I mentioned above my mom's response about Heaven - when it comes to Hell, she thinks it is simply separation from God, not torture or eternal flames.  And for her, that would be a terrible punishment.  I don't know what Heaven would be like but as I mentioned, I can't imagine it being corporeal in any fashion. 

 
 
 
katrix
6.1.33  katrix  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.31    2 months ago
If it was i suppose people of no faith should all be so happy they would be whistling zippity-do-da-day out their rear ends all day, every day.

How do you know that I don't do that?  I mean, besides the fact that I'm not on a reality TV show.

 
 
 
Veronica
6.1.34  Veronica  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.31    2 months ago

I do not know about the lives of people with no faith since I am not one of them.  But I do know that I am a much happier person now with the belief system I have embraced then when I was Catholic.  And I didn't say it was the "main" cause, I said that I have found though that so many people are stressed and angry when it comes to their faith. That is what I have experienced.  AND I never mentioned a particular faith either.

If what you believe in does not help bring happiness and peace into your life, what is the point?

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.1.35  Sparty On  replied to  katrix @6.1.33    2 months ago
How do you know that I don't do that?

Lol well then, if you do.   Good for you!  

Just don't walk in front of me please .....

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.1.36  Sparty On  replied to  Veronica @6.1.34    2 months ago
If what you believe in does not help bring happiness and peace into your life, what is the point?

I couldn't agree more ....

 
 
 
βΔĐ₣ƗŞĦ ĦΔŇĐ Ø₣ ĐØØΜ
6.1.37  βΔĐ₣ƗŞĦ ĦΔŇĐ Ø₣ ĐØØΜ  replied to  katrix @6.1.33    2 months ago
I mean, besides the fact that I'm not on a reality TV show.

I tried to get on a reality show but my butt wasn't big enough.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
6.1.38  livefreeordie  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.26    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
livefreeordie
6.1.39  livefreeordie  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.28    2 months ago

You label as contradictions that which is beyond the understanding of those who reject God.  It makes you feel better about yourselves but brings you no closer to the truth

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.40  TᵢG  replied to  livefreeordie @6.1.39    2 months ago
You label as contradictions that which is beyond the understanding of those who reject God.

Instead of showing that these are not contradictions, you simply declare 'you just do not understand'.   

Logic does not require belief in a god.   You define terms.   You make claims.   Basic logic can determine if there is a contradiction in what you claim.

Does God know what you will do?   Yes or No?   If yes then free will is an illusion.   If no then God is not omniscient.

Make a choice.   

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
6.1.41  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  livefreeordie @6.1.22    2 months ago
God foreknowing does not necessarily equal God planning or desiring for something to occur.

"The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled." - Genesis 6:6

Regret: verb - feel sad, repentant, or disappointed over something that has happened or been done, especially a loss or missed opportunity.

Seems a bit incongruous to know what was going to happen, but then regret making it happen...

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
6.1.42  seeder  XXJefferson#51  replied to  livefreeordie @6.1.38    2 months ago

Well well said. You have it exactly right.  

 
 
 
It Is ME
6.1.43  It Is ME  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.40    2 months ago
Basic logic can determine if there is a contradiction in what you claim.

Please expand ….. oh "Logical one" !

Logically speaking...."God' can't be proven or disproven".....so the "Logic" tells us. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.44  TᵢG  replied to  It Is ME @6.1.43    2 months ago

We are not discussing proof of God.   Go read what we are discussing before asking for an explanation.

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
6.1.45  seeder  XXJefferson#51  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.40    2 months ago

God gave us free will. His knowledge of what we will do with those life choices down the road doesn’t force us to do it.  He gives every one of His intelligent creations the opportunity to do His will for our lives.  His knowledge of which choices we will ultimately make is not the same as Him forcing us to do those things.  His desire is that all love and obey Him.  Not all of us will.  

 
 
 
It Is ME
6.1.46  It Is ME  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.44    2 months ago
We are not discussing proof of God.

isn't "God' and "religion', one in the same ?

logically thinking that is.

Weird that I read a bunch of "God" wording used in comments above though ! jrSmiley_26_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.1.47  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.40    2 months ago
Does God know what you will do?   Yes or No?   If yes then free will is an illusion.   If no then God is not omniscient. Make a choice.   

This is the type of flawed logic that hamstrings some folks.   Let’s talk definitions here.

Free will:

1: voluntary choice or decision I do this of my own free will
2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
So no divine intervention.    How does that mean it’s an illusion if God knows what will happen?    It clearly doesn’t unless you have some level of omniscience previously unknown to man.    Just because God knows what will happen doesn’t mean he will interfere.     Man “by definition” is given Free Will when he doesn’t.
You may not agree with the concept but you don’t get to redefine it to support your preferred narrative.
 
 
 
r.t..b...
6.1.48  r.t..b...  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.47    2 months ago
So no divine intervention.

We all live our lives based on the battle between an internal barometer and an external set of expectations. Each and every one of us makes innumerable choices daily as to how those choices will affect our lives, and by extension those closest to us and to the multitude around us. Assigning causality/blame is the age old debate and will never be settled given our endless search to define the most fundamental and yet most complex question; why are we here? 

Simplistically, just be the best person you can be. Peace

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.49  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.47    2 months ago
So no divine intervention.

If only people would read what others write.  I explained this @6.1.25.   Note this part where I speak of the future being knowable:

TiG @6.1.25 - Well, if the future is knowable then free will cannot exist (if your choice is known ahead of time, your 'choice' is simply an illusion).   It does not even matter who knows the future (or if anyone knows the future).   What matters is that if the future is knowable then reality is deterministic.   What seems like a choice is not a choice - it is the playing out of an extremely complex dynamic.

I mentioned God only because LFOD is focused on God.   But note that my point is about a knowable future.   It is the knowable future that matters.   So if someone mentions God as omniscient then that means we have a knowable future and free will is impossible.   See?   It does not matter how we get to a knowable future, what matters is if we posit a knowable future then that makes free will impossible.

How does that mean it’s an illusion if God knows what will happen?
Read my full answer now @6.1.25 because I explained it.   
It clearly doesn’t unless you have some level of omniscience previously unknown to man.    Just because God knows what will happen doesn’t mean he will interfere.     Man “by definition” is given Free Will when he doesn’t.
This is not about divine interference or any other type of interference.   I do not argue that free will is impossible due to interference.   Again, read @6.1.25.   It does not matter even if there is a God.
You may not agree with the concept but you don’t get to redefine it to support your preferred narrative.
I do not.   It seems to me that you wrote a comment based on presumption rather than what I wrote.    
 
 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.50  TᵢG  replied to  It Is ME @6.1.46    2 months ago
isn't "God' and "religion', one in the same ?

No.   And we were not discussing religion either.   

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.51  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson#51 @6.1.45    2 months ago
God gave us free will. His knowledge of what we will do with those life choices down the road doesn’t force us to do it.  He gives every one of His intelligent creations the opportunity to do His will for our lives.  His knowledge of which choices we will ultimately make is not the same as Him forcing us to do those things.  His desire is that all love and obey Him.  Not all of us will.  

I do not argue that God forces people to do anything.   The lack of free will is not a result of God preventing people from doing things.   I have already explained this in detail.   See @6.1.49 and @6.1.25 if you actually want to know what I wrote.

 
 
 
It Is ME
6.1.52  It Is ME  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.50    2 months ago
No.   And we were not discussing religion either.

You should re-read the comments then !

"Divine" must mean "Sublime" ?

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.1.53  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @6.1.49    2 months ago

I read it before and it changes nothing.    It seemed to me then and still seems to me that your comment is just a bunch rationalizing psycho babble.

Again, look no further than the accepted definition of free will.    It’s not that complicated despite your best efforts to make it so.

 
 
 
TᵢG
6.1.54  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.53    2 months ago
I read it before and it changes nothing.  

Then you did not understand what I wrote since your rebuttal was about divine intervention — that which I did NOT argue.

It seemed to me then and still seems to me that your comment is just a bunch rationalizing psycho babble.

A tacit admission that you do not understand what I wrote.   Well you can either ask questions or pretend I wrote nonsense.   My hypothesis is that you now understand what I wrote and prefer to dodge rather than stand tall.   This is evidenced by claiming 'psycho babble' rather than asking questions or putting forth a rebuttal.

Again, look no further than the accepted definition of free will.  

I also accept your definition of free will.   Works perfectly with what I wrote since I was talking about a deterministic reality (a knowable future).   So if you think the definition of free will you provided counters my argument then you flat out do not understand what I wrote (or are pretending to not understand).

If you honestly do not understand you can of course ask questions.   If you do understand but disagree then put forth a rebuttal and show me where I am wrong.    Repeating your original incorrect complaint against a point I did not make is not a rebuttal; that would be a strawman.

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
6.1.55  Phoenyx13  replied to  Sparty On @6.1.47    2 months ago
2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

very interesting... this definition suggests that chance and surprise are absolute necessities for Freewill to exist, correct ? if God already knows the future - then neither of those things exist, do they ? there's no chance of you doing anything different and no possible surprise choice that you could make, correct ? God already knows what you will do - the future has become deterministic, which negates Freewill.

 
 
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