Bernie Sanders can beat Trump

  
Via:  john-russell  •  one month ago  •  110 comments

Bernie Sanders can beat Trump
It's true that at one point, calling yourself a "democratic socialist" would be a bridge too far for many voters, including Democrats. But that was before people began to realize how unmoored the American capitalist system is from any sense of ethics or morality. The level of economic inequality and suffering from lack of affordable health care, crushing debt, and a discriminatory and racist for-profit incarceration system in one of the world's wealthiest countries is astonishing.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Byline: Kirsten Powers

The Democratic establishment is having a mass freakout as Bernie Sanders surges. The Vermont senator capped a week of strong polls Saturday with a commanding, broad-based win in the Nevada caucuses.



For most of the primary season, politicos, commentators and journalists have dismissed the Sanders candidacy at best or attacked and misrepresented it at worst. How often do we hear it claimed with soothsayer certainty, "A democratic socialist will never be elected president in the United States"?



You know who else will "never" be elected president of the United States? A former reality TV star with zero governing or policy experience who attacks war heroes and the parents of war heroes, brags on tape about grabbing women by the p---y and, well, you get my point.



This is not to say that because Donald Trump became president -- after improbably winning a Republican primary attacking the Bush family and the Iraq War, challenging other previously sacred cows on the right, and even having once praised single-payer health care -- that anyone can become president. It's to point out how the ground has shifted in terms of what is possible in politics. The old rules simply do not apply, so we should stop using them.



It's true that at one point, calling yourself a "democratic socialist" would be a bridge too far for many voters, including Democrats. But that was before people began to realize how unmoored the American capitalist system is from any sense of ethics or morality. The level of economic inequality and suffering from lack of affordable health care, crushing debt, and a discriminatory and racist for-profit incarceration system in one of the world's wealthiest countries is astonishing.



Closing the gap



People are exhausted from working nonstop trying to just survive financially in a system that dangles the carrot of financial stability or wealth always slightly out of reach except for a favored few. Nothing about this is normal, and that is fundamentally Sanders' so-called radical argument.



As Bernie's new foil, former   New York   City Mayor Mike Bloomberg is waving the "moderate lane" banner of electability and claiming that Bernie's kooky notions (which are considered normal behavior in many industrialized countries) go too far for American voters. These are the same voters who would cut off your hand if you reached for their government Medicare or Social Security.



Still, the premise of Bloomberg as electable slipped seamlessly into the public debate. Of course, Bernie fares just as well, and sometimes better, than Bloomberg in hypothetical matchups against Trump, but the electable moniker has mysteriously eluded him.



What ultimately will make the Democratic standard-bearer electable is his or her ability to excite and turn out voters. This is why the most pertinent issue for Bernie's electability argument has been his weak history attracting African American support. While he made significant inroads since 2016, much of that critical voting bloc has been locked up with Joe Biden.



But that is shifting. Tuesday's NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist found that Bernie has narrowed that gap to just 3points, and he tops Bloomberg by 12points. And in the Nevada caucuses, entrance polls showed he captured about a quarter of the black vote.



Bloomberg claimed recently that Sanders had no chance to beat Trump, because he'll scare moderate voters. But a Buzzfeed reporter surveyed moderate Democratic voters at a Biden Iowa event last month, and one after another said that despite their concerns about Sanders, they'd pull the lever for him if he won the nomination.



Not running for king



There's no doubt that if Sanders is the nominee, Republicans will continue to conflate democratic   socialism   with communism and pretend that Venezuela is Sanders' ideal society, though Sanders has said that he is a democratic socialist in the vein of the Scandinavian countries, home to the world's happiest people. Republicans will lie about what Bernie believes the same way they will lie about whoever becomes the Democratic nominee.



Ultimately, there's no reason to think voters are being motivated in any meaningful way by ideology this cycle. People who are more afraid of a single-payer health care system and free college than they are of Trump and his creeping authoritarianism are probably not Democratic voters or even Democratic-leaning independents.



Bloomberg suggested that Bernie's views were tantamount to "communism" at the Las Vegas debate, echoing Republican talking points. On the campaign trail last year, Sanders explained his vision of how democratic socialism would work: It's "an economy in which you have wealth being created by the private sector, but you have a fair distribution of that wealth, and you make sure the most vulnerable people in this country are doing well."



Whatever people's fears about Bernie's democratic socialism, the fact remains he's running for president -- not king -- of the United States. Some of his solutions are dead on and others less so. But he cannot enact any of them without the support of Congress. This means he will have to use his bully pulpit to bring the country around to his point of view if he wants to enact change. American voters are capable of grasping this.



It's well past time to bury the "Bernie is unelectable" trope.


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JohnRussell
1  seeder  JohnRussell    one month ago

Probably the best article I have read about this particular topic all year. 

Kirsten Powers is an establishment Democrat, by the way, not a "leftist".

 
 
 
JohnRussell
2  seeder  JohnRussell    one month ago
Sanders defines democratic socialism as the conviction that a living wage, quality health care, a complete education, affordable housing, a clean environment, and a secure retirement are economic rights. https://www.christiancentury.org/article/critical-essay/what-democratic-socialism-and-where-it-headed

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
3  Sean Treacy    one month ago

Bernie Sanders will be the easiest candidate for Trump to beat. 

It would take a lot of things to go wrong in this country between now and Election Day for Trump to lose to him.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1  TᵢG  replied to  Sean Treacy @3    one month ago

Sanders would put up a very good debate, no doubt about that.

But the electorate is content.   Historically a content electorate votes for the incumbent.   Especially if the incumbent is presiding over a great economy.

Ultimately, people vote with their local family and friends as priority #1.   If it ain't broke, they typically do not try to fix it.  

Trump beats Sanders.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  TᵢG @3.1    one month ago
But the electorate is content.   Historically a content electorate votes for the incumbent.   Especially if the incumbent is presiding over a great economy.

The last time I saw it polled, 48% of Americans said they will not vote for Trump under ANY circumstances. 

Millions of people will vote for Sanders simply because he isnt Trump. 

Your analysis 

But the electorate is content.   Historically a content electorate votes for the incumbent.   Especially if the incumbent is presiding over a great economy.

COMPLETELY leaves out Trump's OBVIOUS unfitness for office as a determining factor, when it may be THE determining factor. 

I can understand your belief that the "economy" will make the difference, but none of the previous elections where the economy made the difference featured a candidate like Trump. 

And your belief that the electorate is "content" is mind blowing.  If the electorate was content you wouldnt have 48% of the population saying they will never vote for that incumbent under any circumstances. 

Sanders defines democratic socialism asthe conviction that a living wage, quality health care, a complete education, affordable housing, a clean environment, and a secure retirement are economic rights. https://www.christiancentury.org/article/critical-essay/what-democratic-socialism-and-where-it-headed

Trump redefined Republican ideology to his own liking.  Sanders can massage the meaning of democratic socialist as well. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.1    one month ago
COMPLETELY leaves out Trump's OBVIOUS unfitness for office as a determining factor, when it may be THE determining factor. 

It does not compare with the big 3 I listed.   Trump was unfit for office before he announced.   His unfitness was clear during the campaign.   He still won the nomination and then won the general.   Now he has been PotUS and while he remains an asshole, he now has the trifecta.    It is what it is.

And your belief that the electorate is "content" is mind blowing. 

People are content with life in the USA.   It has been much worse (and recently too).   The PotUS is embarrassing but that is not as important as the big three.

Sanders can massage the meaning of democratic socialist as well. 

He has to first win.

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.1.3  bbl-1  replied to  TᵢG @3.1    one month ago

"electorate content."  ? ?  Content with what?  Or has the electorate been Supply Sided for so long that they have forgotten what true Capitalism gave them and have accepted that the crumbs of prosperity is more than they deserve?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.4  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.2    one month ago

Like I said a number of times over this exact topic, you are free to your opinion. 

Clearly Trump's "unfitness" is a factor, because he has never hit 50% approval even with the wind from the "great economy" at his back. 

The media has helped Trump immensely by touting stock market highs as a be-all of economic improvement. 

The fact that wealthy people are making so much money off the stock market is one of Sanders points. 

The Percent of Americans who Own Stock Hits Record Low

Jan 04, 2019  · For starters, just   52 % of Americans have ANY money invested in stocks! That low participation rate in stock investing is tied with 2013 for a record low in the 19 years that Gallup has been running this survey. And there has been a downward trend since 2007 (a massive 13 point drop!).

=========================================

Wage gains lose ground to rises in rent, child care, health care costs and many other expenses of everyday living. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.5  TᵢG  replied to  bbl-1 @3.1.3    one month ago

Pretend Trump was not PotUS and we have someone presidential in office.   Okay?   That takes the Trump factor out of the question.

Now, tell me if you think people are content with the economy, employment, lack of war, etc.   What, other than Trump, are people really concerned about and what do they want to keep?

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.6  TᵢG  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.4    one month ago

Sanders has to convince people that he will not disrupt the good times.   I do not see it happening.   And trying to convince people that times are bad is going to be a tough gig.   People are comparing now to four→eight years ago.   What do you think they conclude?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.7  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.5    one month ago
Pretend Trump was not PotUS and we have someone presidential in office.   Okay?   That takes the Trump factor out of the question.

You might as well pretend Bernie Sanders is Franklin Roosevelt. 

Why would anyone take the Trump factor out of the question?

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.8  TᵢG  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.7    one month ago
Why would anyone take the Trump factor out of the question?

To focus on the question: is the electorate content?

I thought that would be obvious.   

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.1.9  bbl-1  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.5    one month ago

I did not mention Trump.  You did. 

I will stand with what I said in 3.1.3

Besides, this election should indeed be an economic one.  It is about time Supply Side Economics is the only topic being discussed and the defenders of it forced to state their reasons and positions.  I laughed with remorse when during the 2012 election candidate Romney and his running mate Rep. Paul Ryan both proudly stated they were Supply Siders and not one person in the media or the opposition party possessed the intellect or the nerve to forcefully, without reprieve make them explain SSE and defend it.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.10  TᵢG  replied to  bbl-1 @3.1.9    one month ago
I did not mention Trump.  You did. 

Yes, I am aware of that.    Is that a problem?   Do you not see why?   Not interested in doing the analysis on how content the electorate is on all factors other than Trump himself?

I will stand with what I said in 3.1.3

Well then there is nothing else to talk about.

Besides, this election should indeed be an economic one. 

I think it will be about the economy.   And that is Trump's major advantage.   You do not see that?

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.1.11  bbl-1  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.10    one month ago

Economy is Trump's major advantage?  Why?  Or is it only because he has 'controlled the message' that there wasn't an economy before he slid down the escalator with wife number three?

This too. Are the Stock Markets a reflection of America's economic strength or merely a reflection of the stability for the upper economic strata. 

 

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.12  TᵢG  replied to  bbl-1 @3.1.11    one month ago
Economy is Trump's major advantage?  Why?

Because the economy is always attached to the presiding PotUS.   As incumbent (another advantage) Trump gets much political credit for the good economy.   (He would also be blamed for a recession.)

This too. Are the Stock Markets a reflection of America's economic strength or merely a reflection of the stability for the upper economic strata. 

Stock markets are not a good gauge on the economy.   The economy is better gauged by unemployment, consumer confidence, business expansion, etc.   Mostly it is the psychological view of the economy that ultimately matters.   Do you think people in general think we have a good or a bad economy right now?

 
 
 
WallyW
3.1.13  WallyW  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.1    one month ago

Unfit in what way. You never define it.

 
 
 
Sparty On
3.1.14  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.12    one month ago

Yep, traditionally most people do tend to vote with their pocketbooks.   Most people are not extremists on the left or the right.  

Although the extremists do tend to be the loudest wackadoodle in every group.   Look no further than NT for proof of that.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
3.1.15  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  WallyW @3.1.13    one month ago
Unfit in what way. You never define it.

You must be new to NT.  John isn't shy about defining it.  He does so every day.  And PS:  He is correct in his daily definition(s).

 
 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.16  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @3.1.15    one month ago

Sister, I have literally posted hundreds of items on NT as to why Trump is unfit. Sad part he was unfit the day all these Trumpsters voted for him 4 years ago.  This is actually why Trumpsters are the biggest single problem in America today. They enable an utterly unfit president. 

Thank you for agreeing with me, but it is really just stating the obvious. 

I never thought I would live to see the day when someone who has lied, in office, 15,000 times is going to be permitted by his party to run for re-election. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.17  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.14    one month ago
Although the extremists do tend to be the loudest wackadoodle in every group.   Look no further than NT for proof of that.

I would vote for Bernie sanders in a fricking heartbeat over Donald Trump, as will many others. 

I dont know if it will be enough for him to win, and that is one reason he will not be the nominee. People want a cleaner shot at beating trump than sanders would afford. 

Personally I would like a president Klobuchar or Warren, but I think it's going to be Biden. As long as he keeps his attack on Trump and doesnt ramble on about 30 years ago or how much Obama depended on him he will be fine. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
3.1.18  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.17    one month ago
doesnt ramble on about 30 years ago or how much Obama depended on him he will be fine. 

Perhaps remembering where, what, and who he is would be a start............

“You’re the ones who sent Barack Obama the presidency. And I have a simple proposition here: I’m here to ask you for your help. Where I come from, you don’t go very far unless you ask. My name’s Joe Biden. I’m a Democratic candidate for the United States Senate ,” he said. https://nypost.com/2020/02/25/joe-biden-says-hes-a-candidate-for-us-senate-in-latest-gaffe/

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.19  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.17    one month ago
I would vote for Bernie sanders in a fricking heartbeat over Donald Trump, as will many others.

Bernie voters didn't turn out very well in 2016, did they?

And rest assured if someone else wins and Bernie Bros feel as though they got screwed again, I wouldn't be counting on them too much.

I dont know if it will be enough for him to win, and that is one reason he will not be the nominee. People want a cleaner shot at beating trump than sanders would afford. 

He is the pretty clear leader at this point. If Biden doesn't win convincingly on Saturday, put a fork in him.

Personally I would like a president Klobuchar or Warren, but I think it's going to be Biden. As long as he keeps his attack on Trump and doesnt ramble on about 30 years ago or how much Obama depended on him he will be fine. 

Warren is shrill, and Kobluchar--a better choice for Democrats in my view--is too quiet and takes too long to get her point across in the debates. Biden keeps slipping and claiming allthis amazing stuff HE did under Obama. Hilarious!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.20  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.19    one month ago

I doubt if many Democrats share your analysis of the candidates , or care. 

Why anyone would accept an opinion about politics from anyone who supports Trump is beyond me. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.21  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.1.18    one month ago
Perhaps remembering where, what, and who he is would be a start............
“You’re the ones who sent Barack Obama the presidency. And I have a simple proposition here: I’m here to ask you for your help. Where I come from, you don’t go very far unless you ask. My name’s Joe Biden. I’m a Democratic candidate for the United States Senate ,” he said. https://nypost.com/2020/02/25/joe-biden-says-hes-a-candidate-for-us-senate-in-latest-gaffe/

Donald Trump has said hundreds, if not thousands, of idiotic things. 

How many of them have you criticized? 

 
 
 
Sparty On
3.1.22  Sparty On  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.17    one month ago
I would vote for Bernie sanders in a fricking heartbeat over Donald Trump, as will many others.

Sure you would.   You're clearly looking for more free stuff.  

Me?   i don't mind working for my stuff.   Never have.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
3.1.23  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.21    one month ago
Donald Trump has said hundreds, if not thousands, of idiotic things.  How many of them have you criticized? 

All of them that deserved it.......and idiotic is a bit of a stretch.........well not for you. I understand.....but Trump

jrSmiley_84_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.24  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.20    one month ago
I doubt if many Democrats share your analysis of the candidates , or care. 

That doesn't bother me. I hope Bernie IS the nominee--force Democrats to admit that they are Democratic Socialists instead of just Democrats.

Why anyone would accept an opinion about politics from anyone who supports Trump is beyond me. 

I am sure hate-filled anti-Trumpers living in their own little cocoons won't like or pay attention to my opinion.

That's okay, too!

Go Bernie, go!

 
 
 
Sparty On
3.1.25  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.24    one month ago

Lol .... hooray angry Grandpa!

You go Bern!!

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.1.26  bbl-1  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.12    one month ago

"Do people think we have a good or bad economy right now?"

Hard question to factually answer.  Most people are hopeful their current status will be maintained.  However, vast swaths of Americans are unable to 'weather' a costly/necessary expense of even a thousand dollars.  The word precipice comes to mind.  And yet there others that are doing very well or better than ever before. 

Wall Street & The Big Banks are their own economy.  Main Street is it's own economy.  The question which should be asked is, 'Which of them truly reflects the US Economy?"

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.1.27  bbl-1  replied to  WallyW @3.1.13    one month ago

Everyway fits nicely.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.28  TᵢG  replied to  bbl-1 @3.1.26    one month ago
Hard question to factually answer. 

Well, okay, then let's just ask the Reagan question:  "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?"    I suspect the overwhelming answer will be 'yes'.

However, vast swaths of Americans are unable to 'weather' a costly/necessary expense of even a thousand dollars. 

I agree, and healthcare costs are the biggest issue for them.

Which of them truly reflects the US Economy?

The economy is best measured in terms of local effect on individuals.   Are people employed, making decent wages, etc.   

 
 
 
r.t..b...
3.1.29  r.t..b...  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.28    one month ago
Well, okay, then let's just ask the Reagan question:  "Are you better off today than you were four years ago?"    I suspect the overwhelming answer will be 'yes'.

I've always found this question to be couched in purely political terms, rather than the economic.

I've purchased three homes and dozen of autos in the last forty years...never once have I considered the current administration as enabling those purchases through their wisdom of economic policy, much less base my pending vote on the same.

Two totally separate animals, global economics and national politics...but an easy selling point for either side depending on the volatility of the market...and a market that any administration has nebulous control over regardless of claims taking credit and/or placing blame.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1.30  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.1    one month ago

Have you learned nothing from the last election? Polls lie.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.31  TᵢG  replied to  r.t..b... @3.1.29    one month ago
.never once have I considered the current administration as enabling those purchases through their wisdom of economic policy, much less base my pending vote on the same.

I fully agree.   But as you note, the political world does not match reality.   The question does matter in the context of voting for PotUS.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
3.1.32  r.t..b...  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.31    one month ago
The question does matter

Agreed. Regardless of the context.

In normal times, this incumbent would be skating into a second-term based on the economy alone. Thankfully, he daily gives us pause and allows those unwillingly to give him a pass to consider another option. Here's hoping the Dems give them a viable one and do not hand it to him on yet another undeserved silver platter.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
3.1.33  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.1    one month ago

There you go again equating poll results to a political candidates chance of success. Just think back to the last presidential election where polls had HRC winning by a landslide. How quickly voters forget.

 
 
 
gooseisgone
3.1.34  gooseisgone  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.20    one month ago
Why anyone would accept an opinion about politics from anyone who supports Trump is beyond me.

OH......OK.....jr will just listen to you.

 
 
 
jungkonservativ111
3.2  jungkonservativ111  replied to  Sean Treacy @3    one month ago

That's exactly what I thought. Bernie would be the easiest and Bloomberg would be the hardest. I believe that if Bernie runs he will never get a single Trump voter, period, and may even lose some democrat voters. His biggest bet would have to be young kids showing up to vote in ways they typically don't. Bloomberg on the other hand I could see grabbing some Trump voters. Maybe the one who doesn't have a problem with Trump policies but hate his personality. While he would still retain all democrats as being the alternative to Trump will guarantee just about anyone a certain base.

 
 
 
bbl-1
4  bbl-1    one month ago

Sanders beat Trump?  Possible.  But hundreds of thousands of voters have been removed from the rolls.  The right wing 'info machine' will scream National Socialism-aka the Nazis-with thousands of images from Treblinka, Auschwitz and other places of foul notoriety.  The Trumpian base may rise in anger if the election is close.  The stakes are high.  The concept of America is on the line.  The only question will be this----which America will prevail.  And the one that ultimately prevails, will it stand?

If Trump is re-elected he will place at least four more Supreme Court Justices and hundreds of lower bench life time tenure judges.  Remember, The Constitution like the bible is interpreted only by those who are given the power to do so.

 
 
 
WallyW
4.1  WallyW  replied to  bbl-1 @4    one month ago
  But hundreds of thousands of voters have been removed from the rolls. 

Not true. jrSmiley_55_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
bbl-1
4.1.1  bbl-1  replied to  WallyW @4.1    one month ago

Your statement is false.  Why did you make it?

 
 
 
Sparty On
5  Sparty On    one month ago
The Democratic establishment is having a mass freakout as Bernie Sanders surges

I'm getting deja vu all over again .....

 
 
 
freepress
6  freepress    one month ago

Not in this climate of misinformation. He has too much baggage, like Bloomberg. The maga crew and Trump and the RNC will weaponize every word, every video and every failure and magnify it to set his entire campaign on end. "blue dog" Democrats won't buy him, they may write in another Democrat. I truly think the Democrats as a party should never allow someone who is NOT a Democrat to run using the entire Democrat party as a funding tool to aid a candidacy he could never run on his own without that structure. It really is unfair to actual Democrats who could be using every tool to defeat authoritarian Republicans like Trump. Already the move is underway in conservative southern states to keep Bernie off the ballot since he is not liked and he is not a Democrat.

 
 
 
JBB
6.1  JBB  replied to  freepress @6    one month ago

Well said...

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
6.2  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  freepress @6    one month ago
Already the move is underway in conservative southern states to keep Bernie off the ballot since he is not liked and he is not a Democrat.

Of course you have a link to that assertion??????????

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
6.2.2  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  evilgenius @6.2.1    one month ago

Thanks. And two Dems? Wow. I guess they do have a point. Seems he is a DINO  and just because he caucuses with Dems, those two at least think he shouldn't be able to run on the ticket. Strange times. I wonder if someone at the DNC is going to get hacked, no wait. I wonder if anyone at the DNC will fall for a phishing scam again and make vulnerable their internal correspondence.......again.

 
 
 
evilgenius
6.2.3  evilgenius  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @6.2.2    one month ago

The law suite won't go far. 

Being an IT guy - when it comes to computer security people are stupid and lazy, so nothing surprises me any more.

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.2.4  Sparty On  replied to  evilgenius @6.2.1    one month ago

Well you see the problem with that is the comment alluded to conservative states trying to keep Bernie off the ballot.   And while Florida i suppose could be considered a conservative state, your example shows that it is Democrats who are trying to block him.   Not conservatives.   So the comment is not really true..

Like is said above, this is deja vu all over again.   Dems are clearly trying to torpedo the Bern again ......

 
 
 
evilgenius
6.2.5  evilgenius  replied to  Sparty On @6.2.4    one month ago

Sparty, Freepress was talking about Blue Dog Democrats in conservative Southern states not excepting Sanders as the nominee. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.2.6  Sparty On  replied to  evilgenius @6.2.5    one month ago

I hear ya but my point was that the wording is misleading.  

It's not the conservative southern states that are against him its the blue dog Dems from those states that apparently are.

 
 
 
evilgenius
6.2.7  evilgenius  replied to  Sparty On @6.2.6    one month ago

I didn't see it, but... (shrug). Say is it warming up yet over your way? Our alley is almost ice free. We'll probably see it gone by the end of the weekend.

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.2.8  Sparty On  replied to  evilgenius @6.2.7    one month ago

We just had a bit of a warm snap but i still have beau coup snow in my yard ..... ain't going away any day soon.

Nice clean blacktop on my driveway though.   I really like that.

 
 
 
evilgenius
6.2.9  evilgenius  replied to  Sparty On @6.2.8    one month ago
We just had a bit of a warm snap...

I'll have some new photos of Lake Superior up tomorrow in the Art group to compare last year with this year.

 
 
 
Sparty On
6.2.10  Sparty On  replied to  evilgenius @6.2.9    one month ago

I'll take a shot of my driveway and post it.

Still lots of snow .....

 
 
 
bbl-1
6.3  bbl-1  replied to  freepress @6    one month ago

"the MAGA crew will weaponize every word."  Of course they will.  But--------------just the recent comments/prophesies of White House Spiritual Advisor Paula White is richer than The Comstock Lode.

 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
7  The Magic Eight Ball    one month ago
Bernie Sanders Can Beat Trump

is this satire?   LOL

seriously?  people believe that?

LOL

god, I hope bernie is the dems candidate

amen :)

 
 
 
Texan1211
8  Texan1211    one month ago

Looks as though Bernie might win the Democratic Party nomination.

Hilarious!

Bernie is too far left for most Americans. And Bernie Bros won't vote for anyone else running.

Its Bernie or bust for Democrats.

I love it.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
8.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @8    one month ago

I don't think the country is anywhere near "content" with the Trump presidency , as another commenter here said.   

Some Democrats will stay home if Sanders is the nominee.  He will need to make up that difference with new voters.  That is an unknown and will remain an unknown and that is part of his problem. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
8.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @8.1    one month ago
I don't think the country is anywhere near "content" with the Trump presidency , as another commenter here said.   

If you are referring to someone who told you that the economy is a huge factor in a Presidential election, especially for an incumbent running again, he was spot on. The fact you choose to ignore historical data doesn't mean the data doesn't exist.

Some Democrats will stay home if Sanders is the nominee.  He will need to make up that difference with new voters.  That is an unknown and will remain an unknown and that is part of his problem. 

Well, of course they wil. Bernie inspires a lot of support from young people, and if he isn't the nominee, that support doesn't automatically switch to another Democrat. Bernie Bros will end up ripping the party apart, especially if they feel Bernie got shafted--again.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
8.1.2  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @8.1.1    one month ago
If you are referring to someone who told you that the economy is a huge factor in a Presidential election, especially for an incumbent running again, he was spot on. The fact you choose to ignore historical data doesn't mean the data doesn't exist.

Show me which one of the historical data refer to a candidate for re-election who has lied 15,000 times in office, and was impeached for trying to cheat in the election. 

I'll save you the effort, there arent any. 

Using "historical" data is of limited use in the present situation. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
8.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @8.1.2    one month ago

Does all that spinning ever make you dizzy?

 
 
 
bbl-1
8.1.4  bbl-1  replied to  Texan1211 @8.1.3    one month ago

Forever Ubiquitous.

 
 
 
Texan1211
8.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @8.1.4    one month ago
Forever Ubiquitous. 

Whoo hoo!

jrSmiley_24_smiley_image.gif

Wondered where your pet saying was hiding out at!

I hope one day you'll learn what it means, and how to use it properly.

Hmm.....wonder if I'll live that long?

 
 
 
Sparty On
8.2  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @8    one month ago

The wild card is the millennial living in moms basement.   If the Bern can get them to put down their bowl of Spaghetti-O's and Xbox controllers long enough to haul their lazy butts down to vote, the Bern might have chance.

I mean he is promising college debt forgiveness and much more "free shit" for everyone but people who have actually worked to get what they have.   A lot of folks will buy into that unfortunately.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
8.2.1  r.t..b...  replied to  Sparty On @8.2    one month ago
The wild card is the millennial living in moms basement.

As a father of two 'millennials' who are productive members of society, are engaged and contribute to their respective causes, and are sick and tired of any label put on any group, I am proud of their civic consciousness.

Like it or not, our future lies with the decisions they will be making for us in the not too distant future. Better to understand them than cast dispersion, as they see the dysfunction and shake their heads at what our generation has left in our wake. They are equipped to tackle the issues rather than talk around them. Nothing new under the sun I suppose, as our forebears thought the same about us. 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
8.2.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  r.t..b... @8.2.1    one month ago
As a father of two 'millennials' who are productive members of society, are engaged and contribute to their respective causes, and are sick and tired of any label put on any group, I am proud of their civic consciousness.

I'm the mother of 2 millenials. The oldest has already paid off her student loan and only graduated college 5 years ago. The baby is busy protecting our country turning wrenches on C-130s and is ready to go when his country calls him.

I'm sick of the attitude towards millenials myself. When I hear someone complain about them, I think they don't really know any.

 
 
 
Sparty On
8.2.3  Sparty On  replied to  r.t..b... @8.2.1    one month ago
As a father of two 'millennials' who are productive members of society, are engaged and contribute to their respective causes,

Well then, congratulations on a job well done.

and are sick and tired of any label put on any group

I'm sure they are except perhaps when they are blaming Baby Boomers for everything they perceive as bad that came before them.   Labels seem to be okay then.

Like it or not, our future lies with the decisions they will be making for us in the not too distant future. Better to understand them them than cast dispersion. They see the dysfunction and the hate we have left in our wake and are equipped to tackle the issues rather than talk around them.

Meh, time to put the big boy pants on then.   I've been hiring and firing for nearly 40 years now and have notice a distinct decrease in the number of applicants who actually work out.   Problems include but are not exclusive to:  wanting top dollar with no experience, lack of motivation to lead, poor work habits as in to0 much phone time not enough work, not wanting to take any responsibility for anything and a general know it all attitude when they clearly know little to anything about the job required.

You're not the only one here who has reared successful millennials so my comments are clearly only generalizations and don't apply to all but if you don't recognize some of the problems i've brought up here you either haven't experienced it like i have and/or you have your head in the sand about it.

Things are so bad around here that we are passing up work we could get because we can't get people willing to take a leadership position to run it.   And while that is not only millennials i'm talking about there, they make up to largest portion of that labor pool at this time.

Its a big problem and i know we're not the only one's experiencing it. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
8.2.4  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.2    one month ago
When I hear someone complain about them, I think they don't really know any.

Wrong

 
 
 
lady in black
8.2.5  lady in black  replied to  Sparty On @8.2    one month ago

As an aunt of multiple millennial nieces and nephews NONE of them are living in mom's basement.  All have jobs and productive members of society.....All but 2 own homes (one is in the Peace Corp) and other is a CO in Up Upstate NY and waiting to get placed closer to home.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
8.2.6  r.t..b...  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.3    one month ago
so my comments are clearly only generalizations and don't apply to all

Then putting away the broad brush in castigating an entire generation might be the best course of action.

 
 
 
Sparty On
8.2.7  Sparty On  replied to  r.t..b... @8.2.6    one month ago

The brush is only as broad as you perceive it to be.  

What is your basis for claiming it shouldn't be a broader brush?   Your kids, my kids, the few kids others here on NT that say theirs are productive as well?   You think others are going to come on here bragging up their millennial kids that are screwed up?

My opinion is borne on a lot of actual experience outside of my family and friends.   How about yours?

 
 
 
r.t..b...
8.2.8  r.t..b...  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.7    one month ago
My opinion is borne on a lot of actual experience outside of my family and friends.

And that is acknowledged, Sparty. Why not leave it at that instead of invoking the tired 'basement and spaghetti-os commentary?  That does absolutely nothing in furthering a conversation, but perhaps that's  just my millenialism speaking. No harm, no foul on this end.

 
 
 
lib50
8.2.9  lib50  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.7    one month ago

This boomer can't wait for the millennials to take over.  We have abdicated out responsibilities to the country.  Boomers are responsible for the economy weighted to the elite.  We've fucked up healthcare to the point a pandemic will have free reign to spread once it hits the areas without access to affordable care. The worst of which are in southern red states.  Too many boomers also believe a pathological liar who doesn't even understand the basics of the issues.

 
 
 
Ender
8.2.10  Ender  replied to  lady in black @8.2.5    one month ago

Same. My Niece is working and going to nursing school and maintains her own apartment. My Nephew works and became a diesel mechanic. Now decided he wants to work on large ships so waiting to get on one.

On another note, I can always tell people that do not live on the coast. They have basements.   Haha

 
 
 
lady in black
8.2.11  lady in black  replied to  Ender @8.2.10    one month ago

I have a basement, it's more of a family room with a bar.  I'm in WNY but not all homes in the area have basements but I'd say 99.9% do.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
8.2.12  r.t..b...  replied to  lib50 @8.2.9    one month ago
This boomer can't wait for the millennials to take over.

We are past time for a generational shift in our leadership...across the board.

One only need look at yesterday's headlines, today's tweet, or tomorrow's doubling down to see how we have fucked-up-beyond-all-recognition the responsibilities entrusted to us, but razed by us under our watch.

 
 
 
Sparty On
8.2.13  Sparty On  replied to  r.t..b... @8.2.8    one month ago
Why not leave it at that instead of invoking the tired 'basement and spaghetti-os commentary?

Point taken, my bad.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
8.2.14  r.t..b...  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.13    one month ago
Point taken, my bad.

No bad, friend...if our leaders could simply agree to disagree as the two of us often do, we would find ourselves in a much better place. It comes down to recognizing our commonality rather than focusing on our differences...and those differences are usually spatial, not fundamental. Next round on you, though...  :)

 
 
 
Sparty On
8.2.15  Sparty On  replied to  r.t..b... @8.2.14    one month ago
Next round on you, though...

That is never a problem my friend

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.2.16  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.2    one month ago

I have to agree with you Trout. I have two also, and they are pulling their own weight without complaining. 

Typical generation gap crap.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
8.2.17  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Ender @8.2.10    one month ago

I live on Long Island and almost everyone has a basement, including me. In fact, I have never owned a house without one. 

 
 
 
evilgenius
8.2.18  evilgenius  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.2.17    one month ago

I wish I didn't have one. My gf just told me the other day I could build a fishroom in the basement if I wanted to, but I'd have to put out nearly $10k just to get it level, leak proof and heated.

 
 
 
MonsterMash
8.2.19  MonsterMash  replied to  evilgenius @8.2.18    one month ago
My gf just told me the other day I could build a fishroom in the basement if I wanted to

You have to get your gf's permission to do what you want to do in a house you own?

 
 
 
Ender
8.2.20  Ender  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.2.17    one month ago

Here the water table is just to high. I know one place that emptied out a good size pool to clean it and left it empty for to long. It imploded. A friend of mine has a pool that is basically a big shell. If he emptied it it would pop up.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
8.2.21  Trout Giggles  replied to  Ender @8.2.20    one month ago

Not a lot of basements in Arkansas, either, because of the water table, so people build storm shelters.

I hate basements, anyway. My mom was always sending me to the basement for something and there were monsters down there!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
8.2.22  Trout Giggles  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @8.2.16    one month ago

"gap crap"

I like that

 
 
 
Sparty On
8.2.23  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @8.2.21    one month ago

The older you get the more basements become the place that collects the crap you don't need and/or will never use again.

At least that's what mine looks like ...... i am such a pack-rat

 
 
 
evilgenius
8.2.24  evilgenius  replied to  MonsterMash @8.2.19    one month ago
You have to get your gf's permission to do what you want to do in a house you own?

No, I have to get my gf's permission to do what I want in a house SHE owns. I also didn't ask her and it's anyways it's polite when it concerns something as large as thousands of dollars if investment into a hobby that will take up hundreds of hours of my time.

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
9  Dean Moriarty    one month ago

I have no confidence in the American voters after they reelected Obama knowing what a disaster Obamacare and the promise of free crap turned out to be.  I think there is a possibility Bernie can win but I think he is our best shot at a second term for Trump. It's a gamble but I'm hoping enough Americans are feeling the burn from the higher taxes associated with Obamacare and getting stuck carrying the dead weight of the freeloaders that they will reconsider voting for more free crap and bigger government.

 
 
 
lady in black
9.1  lady in black  replied to  Dean Moriarty @9    one month ago

I have no confidence in the American voters after they elected Crooked donnie and thinks he's god

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.2  Tessylo  replied to  Dean Moriarty @9    one month ago

Who is getting all this free stuff that tRump supporters keep talking about?

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
9.2.1  Dean Moriarty  replied to  Tessylo @9.2    one month ago

The drunks, drug addicts and lazy bums that get Obamacare for free and the working man gets stuck paying their bill.  The ones Nancy Pelosi told to quit their jobs because others would be stuck carrying their dead weight. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.2.2  Tessylo  replied to  Dean Moriarty @9.2.1    one month ago

[removed]  

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.2.3  Tessylo  replied to  Dean Moriarty @9.2.1    one month ago

88175515_10222221265387383_7261509127266

 
 
 
Split Personality
9.2.4  Split Personality  replied to  Dean Moriarty @9.2.1    one month ago

What partisan sweeping generalization crap from the past.

Did Pelosi say that in May of 2010? Not exactly.

She was trying to sell the idea that one of the benefits of government-funded healthcare is that it will allow for labor market flexibility.

BTW, if you have no income, you don't qualify for the ACA, they make you sign up for Medicaid if you are eligible for that.

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.2.5  Tessylo  replied to  Split Personality @9.2.4    one month ago

I knew it was a bunch of nonsense, as usual.  

 
 
 
lib50
9.2.6  lib50  replied to  Dean Moriarty @9.2.1    one month ago
Obamacare for free and the working man gets stuck paying their bill.

God I hate it when people don't understand that WE ALL PAY FOR THE UNINSURED! EVERYBODY, even those with employer benefits pay.  People either aren't responsible and choose not to get insurance, or are too poor to afford it and can't get it, and when disaster strikes (accident, health crisis)  WE PAY.  AND WE PAY MORE than if everybody was covered and participated from the start.  Costs go down when everybody is in. And by the way, Obamacare helped reverse those costs and increase coverage.  Now we are back to allowing worthless policies that cover NOTHING.  Like pissing money away for nothing.  That's the gop plan, go back to the worst.

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.2.7  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @9.2.5    one month ago

87941500_1082340628819659_84575637901315

 
 
 
It Is ME
9.2.8  It Is ME  replied to  lib50 @9.2.6    one month ago
God I hate it when people don't understand that WE ALL PAY FOR THE UNINSURED!

That's been a given for decades. We...the "Insured"...already knew that. Didn't bother us "Insured" folks much, but making a "Law" that says "We Will" do it or else", does bother us "Insured" people !

Why "Fuck up" a good thing for others, by telling "Insured" people they "Will" do it, instead of just keeping the "Status Quo" they didn't bitch about in the first place ? 

By the way....this "It will bring costs down", is Bullshit ! Not one thing being proposed by any Democrat, lowers actual Medical Costs. it just creates something requiring taxes to be raised, which, by the way, is gonna be paid for by you and I in the end anyway.

Where is the cost saving again ?

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.2.9  Texan1211  replied to  lib50 @9.2.6    one month ago

That is totally incorrect. If costs go down when more people participate, then costs would have gone down when millions more were insured.

They did NOT go down.

Ooops.

 
 
 
lib50
9.2.10  lib50  replied to  Texan1211 @9.2.9    one month ago

At almost 20% of our gdp, healthcare costs are highest in the world for less coverage.  Most countries are under 15%.    Since its such a complicated issue, it requires a broader perspective than 'my costs went up'. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/11/universal-healthcare-could-save-america-trillions-whats-holding-us-back

Yet casting Medicare-for-all as an economic impossibility is becoming a sisyphean pursuit: a slew of studies – including one released just the other week – are confirming that, yes, we can afford real universal healthcare in America. But if that’s the case, why haven’t we already achieved it? Well, the real stumbling block is not that single-payer advocates’ arithmetic is poor, it’s that American politics are dominated by the rich.

Still, the numbers matter. On 30 November, a team of economists with the Political Economy Research Institute (Peri) at the University of Amherst published a highly credible, nearly 200-page economic analysis of Senator Bernie Sanders’ single-payer bill. The Peri study received essentially none of the media coverage lathered on the last such analysis – a flawed piece of work published by the conservative Mercatus Center last summer . But here’s the funny thing: though these two analyses came from economists from opposite ends of the political spectrum, they shared a similar finding: single-payer would reduce our nation’s healthcare spending bill by trillions of dollars over a decade (around $2tn and $5tn, respectively).

The numbers are big, but they shouldn’t come as a surprise. Yes, single-payer imposes some new costs: when people don’t have to worry about ruinous medical bills or ravenous debt collectors, they tend to use more healthcare , increasing costs. But such rises in utilization are likely to be modest (even more modest than these analyses predict). There are only so many doctors and hospital beds, which limits theorized surges in utilization. Anyway, there are hundreds of billions in potential savings in moving to single-payer, such as slimming down on the massive administrative bloat of the privatized American healthcare system and bringing down our sky-high drug prices.

https://www.thebalance.com/causes-of-rising-healthcare-costs-4064878

How the ACA Slowed the Rise of Health Care Costs

By 2009, rising health care costs were consuming the federal budget. Medicare and Medicaid cost $671 billion in 2008. 30 That was 19% of the total budget of $3.5 trillion. Payroll taxes only cover half of Medicare and none of Medicaid. This so-called  mandatory spending  also included federal and veterans' pensions,  welfare , and interest on the debt . It consumed 60% of the  federal budget . Congress knew something had to be done to rein in these costs. 

> Federal health care costs are part of the  mandatory budget . That means they must be paid. As a result, they are eating up funding that could have gone to  discretionary budget  items, such as  defense , education, or rebuilding infrastructure. 31   Obamacare's  goal is to reduce these costs. First, it required insurance companies to provide  preventive care  for free. 32 That treats chronic conditions before they required expensive hospital emergency room treatments. It also reduced payments to Medicare Advantage insurers. 33 Since 2010, when the  Affordable Care Act  was signed, health care costs rose by 4.3% a year. It achieved its goal of lowering the growth rate of health care spending. 34   In 2010, the government predicted that Medicare costs would rise 20% in just five years. That’s from $12,376 per beneficiary in 2014 to $14,913 by 2019. Instead, analysts were shocked to find out spending had dropped by $1,000 per person, to $11,328 by 2014. 35  It happened due to four specific reasons: 36
 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
9.2.11  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  It Is ME @9.2.8    one month ago
Where is the cost saving again ?

We spend $3.5 trillion on healthcare annually.

https://www.crfb.org/papers/american-health-care-health-spending-and-federal-budget

"Average insurers’ overhead costs are about 12.4% , according to an April 2017  Annals of Internal Medicine article by Steffie Woolhandler and David U. Himmelstein."

"total Medicare expenditures of $678.7 billion for 2016, of which $9.2 billion was characterized as "administrative expenses." That works out to 1.4% "

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/sep/20/bernie-s/comparing-administrative-costs-private-insurance-a/

So if we went to Medicare for all, just in overhead we'd be saving 11% of $3.5 trillion even if there were no other cost savings. And if the majority went to a Medicare for all buy in option where instead of paying into a private insurer they paid into the Medicare pool to be able to qualify for Medicare at an earlier age, the ridiculous complaint of hospitals and doctors not accepting Medicare would disappear, because they would either accept Medicare or no longer have 90% of the population as clients. I would do that in an instant if I could.

Private insurers could then continue selling their current policies as well as the Medicare supplement plans which cover the gaps and higher deductibles found in the Medicare coverage.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.2.12  Texan1211  replied to  lib50 @9.2.10    one month ago

Costs go down when everybody is in. And by the way, Obamacare helped reverse those costs and increase coverage.  

Your words.

If costs came down, as you claim, how did Obamacare slow the rise of costs? (as you cited above)

Wouldn't the sentence have been:

Obamacare lowered costs.

 
 
 
It Is ME
9.2.13  It Is ME  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @9.2.11    one month ago

"We spend $3.5 trillion on healthcare annually."

No...… "WE" …… don't.

I "Spend" $ 6,000.00 on Health Insurance per year for my wife and two kids. Includes eye care, health care and dental.

And we use the service I pay for.

 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
9.2.14  The Magic Eight Ball  replied to  lib50 @9.2.6    one month ago
WE ALL PAY FOR THE UNINSURED! EVERYBODY,

but if ya want to lower actual costs?  get rid of insurance companies completely.

personally I am ok with medicare for everyone as long as it is done right.

tax incomes and send the money to the states and let them handle things. just like the dept of education. (simple and constitutional)

forcing people to pay through a middle man making a profit and expecting overall lower costs?  the stupidest thing ever and unconstitutional. (this would be why the obamacare fine was uncollectable by force)

 
 
 
It Is ME
10  It Is ME    one month ago

The last debate was a riot to watch....especially Bernie's antics.

The best line of the debate came from Pete Buttigieg against Bernie:

"The House turned blue because "Democrats" that were running, ran away from your position"

You could see Bernie acting like some grade school kid, waving his arms, pointing to himself, waving his arms some more, pointing to himself again - "ooo,ooo,oooo, Pick Me, Pick Me" !

He looked like Horshack wanting recognition !

 
 
 
Sparty On
10.1  Sparty On  replied to  It Is ME @10    one month ago

Lol .... you go angry grandpa!

 
 
 
It Is ME
10.1.1  It Is ME  replied to  Sparty On @10.1    one month ago

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_43_smiley_image.gif

 
 
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