While Trump sulks, Americans get Covid-19 and die - CNNPolitics
I am surprised at how far Trump is taking this.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
(CNN)As the US speeds past the tragic mark of a quarter of a million Covid-19 deaths, its President is sulking in the White House over an election he lost fair and square and obstructing the effort by his soon-to-be successor, Joe Biden, to stand up a fight against the fast-worsening pandemic.
President Donald Trump is fixated on his failing, threadbare challenges to the election and is tweet-spreading lies about vote fraud, instead of using his platform and power to confront a once-in-a-century health emergency he falsely assured the nation was all but over. He hasn't appeared at a public event for days and has forbidden any members of his administration to talk to Biden's team. Also, as part of the President's evidence-free quest to challenge the election, his administration is holding up millions of dollars in funding and access mandated by transition laws. Trump White House
- Trump fires director of Homeland Security agency who rejected President's election conspiracy theories
- Trump team looks to box in Biden on foreign policy by lighting too many fires to put out
- Trump scores a long-awaited coronavirus win with vaccines on the way
- MAP: Full election results
Trump's outrageous presidency has conditioned the world to his incessant flouting of the duties of the office and indifference to the national interest. But it is an extraordinary and unprecedented scenario that in the world's oldest democracy, a President is refusing to admit the clear result of an election in which Americans voted to eject him from office. Many of Trump's legal challenges -- in Nevada, Pennsylvania and Michigan -- rest on the idea that isolated problems or unproven claims of fraud should require throwing out hundreds of thousands of legally cast American votes. Read More On Thursday, the Trump campaign dropped its federal lawsuit in Michigan that alleged voting irregularities and had asked the court to stop certification of the votes in Wayne County as two Republican members of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers said they wanted to "rescind" their votes to certify the results from the county. Monica Palmer, one of the GOP board members, told The Washington Post she received a roughly-two minute call from the President on Tuesday and that she felt no pressure to change her vote from him. "I did receive a call from President Trump, late Tuesday evening, after the meeting," Palmer told the Post. "He was checking in to make sure I was safe after hearing the threats and doxing that had occurred." The results of an audit of the balloting in one key state that Biden won, Georgia, are expected to reaffirm Biden's victory on Thursday, further closing off one of the President's implausible routes to staying in power. While legal challenges appear destined to fail, the strategy seems to be to create sufficient fog around the vote that Republican state legislatures may intervene to pick pro-Trump delegations to the Electoral College. If that fails, as is overwhelmingly likely, discrediting the election will at least salve Trump's humiliation and might be political fuel for a future run. That all of this constitutional chicanery is coinciding with a pandemic that Trump ignored, denied and downplayed and is killing many thousands of Americans a week is only adding to the surreal sense of political purgatory in Washington caused by an outgoing President who is putting a bruised ego ahead of the health of hundreds of millions of Americans.
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To what end other than to cause harm to the USA and further tarnish Trump's legacy?
Like a petulant child throwing a tantrum.
You might be surprised, but I'm not. This is how Trump rolls.
trolls
I am surprised at how far he is taking it when faced with a clear victory by Biden. This goes beyond narcissism into irrational. All he can accomplish other than damaging the nation is to further damage his own tarnished legacy.
Pure spite.
Trump is nothing more than a spoiled petulant child who has been told NO for the 1st time in his life. This is his temper tantrum.
All I can do is shake my head at the craziness of the legal arguments. Team Trump is running out of both time and arguments.
What kind of rational adult reacts the way Trump is doing?
The answer is in the question.
Indeed.
Al Gore?
Bad comparison. He conceded.
I thought Gore carried things too far. Trump makes Gore look very noble and statesmanlike by comparison.
Trump continues to be ridiculous and has pushed the envelope of sore presidential loser beyond anything I would have expected ... even from him.
After it was determined Bush won. I do not recall Mr. Gore throwing a tantrum over it.
Gore just took it on the chin and resumed hunting Man Bear Pig.
He was super serial about it too. Lol
LOL. I wasn't sure anyone remembered the MBP thing. Great Big Gay Al from Southpark reference btw.
I am well versed in some classics. Excelsior!
Not til December 13th. Trump has until at least that long.
If you were Trump, would you continue to blow smoke and refuse to accept defeat when there clearly is no chance of reversing these states?
He is only taking Gore's lead and listening to the advice of Hillary. You can't get mad at that.
Gore and Trump's situations are different. The 2000 election hinged on a very close vote for 1 state to determine the election. Trump is trying to battle multiple states, some of which have officially called it for Biden. Trump has no chance to turn enough states in his favor to alter the outcome of the election. It's over! Trump is just being a sore loser at this point.
You are avoiding my question.
You're trying to compare coconuts to sweet potatoes Bugsy.......
All of this while Trump's give a shit approach to current and future Covid infections and deaths goes on. I care about my neighbors.... and I'm betting you care about yours too.
Not really. Both had/have the right to challenge election results. Gore did it in 2000, not conceding until December 13, and Trump is doing it now. It's not December 13th yet.
I'm not avoiding anything. Both have the right to do what they are doing. There was no path for Gore to win Florida. As a matter of fact, Bush ended up with more votes AFTER the 4 recounts than he did before the recounts started.
The difference is that Gore had a very credible chance of reversing the results. Here there is no realistic chance of reversing the results.
Trump is petulantly denying his defeat and there is nothing to be gained by doing so. It is strictly negative for him and everyone else.
You see that, right?
How do you know he doesn't give a shit?> Are you in the White House or are you just giving opinions laced with feeeeeeelings?
COVID deaths go on because states have rights and Americans choose to do what they are doing. Of they don't want to take personal responsibility, then that's on them, not Trump.
Sure there was. The recounts could have easily shifted to Gore's favor. They did not, but they certainly could have given how close the election was.
So what would Trump have to do to prevail here in 2020? Have you ever considered the level of reversals that would be required to give him 270 electoral votes.
To think he has any chance is truly absurd.
Now, if you think I am wrong, explain to me how Trump, being practical, could legally reverse this election.
And they could eventually shift to Trump's favor, but it will be difficult.
If Trump's lawyers can produce good, strong unequivocal evidence that cannot be disputed, then he has a better chance.
Before you ask "where is the proof?", I want to say that I agree with Trump's lawyers to not disclose, right now, their proof because everyone knows that as soon as they do, the media will attack it as already debunked, doxx any of those who gave sworn affidavits (they probably will anyway) and to everything they can to sway public opinion to believe the media is the "all truth".
That is not going to happen. You must know this by now.
Do you honestly believe there is a snowball's chance in hell of that occurring? If I happen to buy the lottery ticket that is selected I will win. That IF represents a condition that is near impossible.
Hell, just put forth credible evidence (does not have to be proof) that these lawsuits have credible legs to stand on and that if they were to prevail they would yield 270 electoral votes. I remain amazed that anyone, today, does not see that Trump has lost and there is no practical, legal path to reverse this.
Bugsy, this is over. This is beyond crazy over. It is just mind-blowing that anyone would support Trump's petulant refusal to concede this lost election.
I never said it's not over.
What I am saying that no matter how wrong Trump might be, he has the right to challenge the results, just like democrats were able to in the past...with little harassment.
Yes he has the right to behave like a fool.
Do you think he should? Would you in his position?
Uh, donald harasses people on a daily basis...
I never get the thinking that he can say as many nasty things as possible, about anyone he wants yet as soon as someone says anything back to him it is harassment....
Yes, really!
Gore had a chance, especially with ONE state that would make all the difference. That was not the case this election. Trump had little chance then, and no chance now.
Have you not been paying attention to what Trump has been saying for months regarding Covid?
And Trump encouraged them, either intentionally or not, to not take responsibility.
Haven't they already done both? This is like trying to reverse the results of a played football game with an ending score of 30 to 23. It is over.
I picked up a Mega Millions Lotto last week and didn't get the big prize... I WON! I'm going to sue the lotto commission for fraud until they capitulate and award me my multi-million dollars.
Rudy wants $20K a day to keep failing for Trump.
Didn't he read Michael Cohen's book? He should have.
rudy will flop when he finds out he's at the bottom of the trump family food chain.
Why is Rudy even relevant anymore? Barron Cohen (Borat) literally caught him with his hands in his pants
he had an excuse that most trumpsters have used and had accepted among themselves
And they call themselves the Family Values crowd...tsk tsk tsk
Considering that Trump will probably not pay him, Rudy is getting what he is worth.....NOTHING.
Yesterday the US lost 1848 citizens. It's really a sad day that we have a five-year-old in the White House having a temper tantrum ignoring the devastation the US is dealing with. All the while not allowing the administration pandemic team from working with the incoming Biden team.
What a useless POS he is.
What should Trmup be doing about Covid now ?
Shutting the country down.
So you want Trump to ignore the Constitution and issue an illegal diktat?
The authoritarians always reveal themselves.
Since when has Ignoring the Constitution been a problem for Trump?
Yeah right, Bob. Wreck more smaller businesses and put more millions out of work and having people die by suicide, starvation, and hopelessness.
I'm sure a lot of progressive and liberal Democrats and their families would go along with that plan.
Since when has Ignoring the Constitution been a problem for Trump?
When has Trump ignored the Constitution? Give us all the detail please
Trump doesn't care how many die.
His followers... follow...
Rip van Winkle?
Neither does Biden. A reality you will be finding out very shortly.
Holy F!!
I'm accustomed to right-wing wackos justifying crap by claiming that some random liberal has done something similar... but this is the first time I've ever seen someone justify crap by claiming that a liberal will do something...
.... carefully calibrated crystal ball....
Restrictions have been in place, but new cases are spiking all over the country. It's not clear why that is.
You're joking, right?
has Ignoring the Constitution been a problem for Trump?
Obviously, it's not a problem for you. Remember this the next time you start claiming "democracy is in danger"
Ah, Sean...
These must be trying times...
People are now spending more time indoors. The sun is less direct and we have fewer hours of sunlight so that the UV protection is lessened. On top of that, as time goes on people naturally grow laxer in their precautions.
And if the coronavirus is anything like influenza virus', the cooler air makes it easier for a virus to survive.
One thing is certain, the virus spreads mostly by human airborne interaction. The closer we are unprotected, the more likely we are to spread the virus.
I think given half a chance you would welcome an authoritarian rule, especially one where liberals have no say
Projecting won't help you bob. You've outed yourself, again, as an anti-democratic authoritarian.
LOL.
You are free to make up whatever crazy things you want and project them on others, I guess. , That's the beauty of this board. Might as well accuse Perrie of pining for Nazi rule.
I didn't even come close to saying anything like that. You've made statements on here that lead me to believe you would welcome trmp as a dictator
Go for it, Sean!
It's not clear why that is.
It is clear to anyone with half of a functioning brain. Superspreader events, sport team celebrations, marches, protests, mass gatherings, Karens/Darrens, anti maskers, large parties, elected officials doing nothing, and going out when not feeling well are some of the WHY's.
You've made statements on here that lead me to believe you would welcome trmp as a dictato
Then you must be seeing hidden messages visible only to you in my posts.
I've never even voted for him. The idea that I'd welcome him, or anyone else, as a dictator is loony tunes.
whatever sean
Not at all. Just this morning, I read this:
L.A. officials are still not sure how or why COVID cases are skyrocketing. It’s a huge handicap
There's more, but hopefully you get the idea. In spite of restrictions, mask wearing, and social distancing, new cases are rocketing upwards and we don't really know why.
Those are all possible contributors but we just don't know for sure where the cause and effect is.
Knowing for sure is a high bar Tacos!
Your personal "common sense" is not science.
Neither is internet bigotry.
They might be contributing, but we don't know in what ways or to what degree. We didn't just start doing those things in late October. In fact, we may be doing them even less than we did in summer.
Is mask wearing on the increase or decrease? How would we know?
This site purports to measure mask wearing , and it appears to my eye to be increasing, not decreasing. Yet cases continue to rise. So maybe masks aren't the significant factor.
It is. But if you want to take action that actually has an impact - especially without radically disrupting people's lives - we should strive to be as sure as possible. It's easy to just declare without evidence - as some do - that Behavior X is the big problem. Sanctimony doesn't make it true.
In a pandemic one errs on the side of caution.
It should be obvious at this point that it is smart to keep a social distance from strangers whenever possible. And when not possible, it is smart to wear a mask, not touch one's face and to keep one's hands clean.
It should also be obvious that certain events (e.g. stadium events, concerts) are inherently high risk factors for infection. Also, traveling by jet, etc. is still risky given we have no herd immunity.
But in spite of all of our efforts, this virus is going to still infect people until we secure herd immunity.
I'm a fan of caution, but I'm also a fan of results. Some activities don't appear to make things any worse. Some restrictions seem unnecessary. And then we have this big explosion of cases in spite of restrictions. Scientists are admitting they don't fully understand why the surge is happening.
So will locking down even more do anything to stem the tide? We don't seem to know. One thing I notice is it's the people who can best tolerate full lockdowns who advocate them most easily.
No doubt. Clearly we should not go overboard. This is a complicated problem with a ton of unknowns (still). People (i.e. governors) will continue to make mistakes as they navigate these unfamiliar waters.
We should not lock down everything; that is overkill of course. The lock downs, if they take place, should be targeted based on the best information we have at the time.
Look at the countries that have done well. Social distancing, masks, and usually lots of closed businesses.
Otherwise, America, with well over a thousand deaths every day, is looking at a half a million dead before the vaccine gains traction.
But hey!
Let's obfuscate...
Today, California has announced that there is a curfew between the hours of 10pm and 5am. This will continue until December 21st. What does this accomplish, I wonder. Is the virus more infectious after 10pm?
Many countries like Australia and New Zealand have done quite well in controlling the spread of the virus. However, part of the problem might be people become lax or complacent when positive progress is made. They might think things are under control and it's OK to go back to "business as usual." Unfortunately, that also allows a resurgence in viral spread and infections. So places that were or have gotten it under control now have to deal with a surge all over again.
I have not looked into this so I have nothing to share.
The thing is, you shouldn't have to look into it. It should be fairly simple for the governor to say we need this curfew because [insert specific reason]. It should be more than just "because there are a lot of new cases."
Even for people who resist wearing masks, they at least have been told why it's important to wear one. There's a logic to it, ya know? I don't really know why staying out past 10pm is a bad thing. Because I have an imagination, I could speculate and invent possible reasons, but why should I have to? Or is that the governor thinks I should just be quiet and trust him? That kind of thing makes me trust him less.
Well, Tacos!, I would never want to try to explain that actions of your Gov Newsom.
One thing that comes to mind is that a 10pm curfew kind of kills any semblance of night life. So places where people can gather in close proximity like bars are curtailed. But if that were the objective then a curfew would be a sledgehammer rather than a scalpel.
It's very clear. Far right wing Trumpists don't wear masks.
In my little red-neck town, I'm one of the few who wears one.
[Deleted]
F only, that person Trumpp shot on 5th avenue...but i don't condone suicide
We are now both on a watch list. Good thing we're both innocent.
That's true, but I don't think it explains why a liberal haven like California is currently setting records for new cases.
it's cool, i don't wear a watch
and
ive been known to be guilty of innocense
Exactly. This has happened in France, where the curve was pretty well crushed... and then public laxity let it take off again. The government slammed the doors again, and the situation is looking better.
If you climbed out of the Fox Bubble, you'd receive articles from... multiple sources. My RSS aggregator has stuff from at least three sources this morning (French time).
Of course... this implies that you would be open to reading "bad news for Trump", which I suspect you avoid.
I'll give you two reasons Tacos:
1. Too many American "patriots" won't allow restrictions to interfere with their God-given individual rights and freedom to IGNORE those restrictions. Case in point - Trump's huge rallies.
2. It's TOO FUCKING LATE!!! Trump knew it was a problem in January when there were few cases and containment was possible, but he didn't want people to panic. (Better that they should die, eh Donnie?)
You forgot to add to your list the 2,015 people that died from Covid yesterday.
Quick question, Greg: Under whose watch is this happening?
What does any of that nonsense have to do with what I wrote?
Yes, you're obviously proud of it. I see no reason why I should care, though. Maybe try reading the comment you are responding to.
You seem to enjoy making assumptions about people. Does that help you disregard their opinions and perspectives without considering them?
How often do you leave the Fox Bubble?
Is "Trump rallies" your scientific explanation for record breaking new cases in California? I know you don't live here, but do you understand the politics of California? There's not a ton of Trump rallies here, much less "huge" ones. Joe Biden got over 63% of the vote. That's better than he did in about 45 of the other states.
There are a couple of things you either disregard or don't understand.
First, is that new cases had been declining for months in places like California. Then, suddenly in October, with no change in the virus or in restrictions, cases started going through the roof. You really think that has something to do with a choice Trump made in January? That's not only illogical, it's clearly based on nothing more than your personal political bias.
Second, the United States has dual systems of government. There is a federal (national) government and there are 50 state governments. The federal government is given limited power. And within that limited power, Trump is the head of only one of three co-equal branches of government.
Whatever power has not been specifically granted to the federal government is reserved to the states. So everyday behaviors - like what businesses can be open, how late people can stay out, where they can travel and so on - is not under the authority of Donald Trump. These are state matters.
I'll answer your dumb question with a question. Have you stopped beating your wife? A simple yes or no will do.
You said "it's not clear why that is", I tried to provide you with answers and got blasted for trying to do so. I should have used the word 'example', rather than 'case in point'. I stand by my assessment. Your lesson in "division of jurisdiction and powers" is just a THIRD reason why you are experiencing massive numbers. Now you have three reasons - I'm sure there are more.
Yes, but that is not my personal conclusion. It is the conclusion of experts cited in the Los Angeles Times article I linked to @5.1.22. I also copied and pasted a relevant portion of the article.
Hardly. I have a different point of view and information you clearly did not have. No one is blasting you.
I also believe it is probably a combination of factors. However, the "two" reasons you gave were basically just one: "It's Trump's fault (or his supporters)." That is a simplistic and partisan response to a complicated issue that does not address all the facts.
Hey!
I copyrighted that a long time ago.
Your simplifying my first two reasons by combining them doesn't hold water. Trump is the POTUS, a person who should be leading and also setting an example. Those Americans who disdain following the guidelines are NOT Trump, but they are individuals (although Trump's sheep they probably are) who are supposed to have brains in their heads, and are not necessarily following Trump's example or advice to delare demonstratively their, as I said, "god-given sacred individual rights and freedom" to display their individual unbelievably selfish disdain for the collective good.
I replied to what YOU had said, not what your link had said. There were no quotation marks to what I replied to.
Give the incoming Biden Covid team access to individuals and data they will need to continue work in progress now.
Trump has done nothing so far in four years other than infecting most of the WH to include his own wife and son, so what makes Greg think he will do anything now with less than 60 days left other than cause the deaths of thousands more.
Meet regularly and have daily briefings with a Civil committee and scientists. He should be reminding people that cases are surging and encourage people to wear masks & social distance. He should tell people that we are all in this together and need to work together to deal with the crisis. He should be attempting to help Biden take over the covid situation and response, rather than being petty & vindictive. You know, all simple things any rational adult would do.
But those things would take an actual president.
Oh right [slaps forehead], silly me. We won't know if we have one of those for a couple more months.
Biden had a good teacher.
How about?:
Here's some real life facts for you
What do you conclude from the study?
He should not be given any decision as to where the vaccines will go. He will completely deprive blue states over red states. He will probably sell much of it to the highest bidder(s) to other countries, most likely to Kim and Putin.
Biden will be PotUS on Jan 20th so I would not worry that Trump is going to somehow play games with the deployment of the vaccine. He is currently the PotUS but the PotUS is limited in what s/he can do. Hell, Trump could not even get reelected, why worry that he will engage in magical levels of corruption as a lame duck?
Trump being Trump will end badly.
Seems to me it already has.
but the PotUS is limited in what s/he can do.
Trump never got that memo.
He said that the constitution says "I can do whatever I want as president."
Trump always tries to push the envelope, but the fact remains that his powers are indeed limited.
What he still COULD do as a lame duck should scare the shit out of everyone - and I'm sure he's considering the possibilities. As of now he's said that if the Electoral College appoints Biden, he will leave the White House on January 20th, but he has not said that he would not still attempt to sway the Electoral College appointed voters to choose him instead of Biden, and I'm sure he will NEVER concede - in order to maintain the loyalty of his flock of sheep.
It's not necessary for him to do so. His goose is cooked, whether he admits it or not.
He will not change the results of the EC. In the most practical sense, that is impossible.
America should have celebrated their Thanksgiving for the reason that his goose was cooked like their turkeys were.
I had read that there possible ways for preventing the EC voters from serving, so that a different political body would provide the vote instead, and that he could try to cause that avenue.
Practically speaking, that is impossible at this point.
Well as baseball's famous philosopher said, "It's never over 'till it's over."
The bottom of the ninth has been played and there is no tie, the winner was certified by the umpires, the teams have returned to their locker rooms. All that remains is the official certification of the results.
But unfortunately, the winning players on their way home may still find roadblocks that the losing team and its fans put up - like how the Biden bus was stopped on the highway in Texas.
getting it and spreading it to his house and senate supporters would be at the top of my wish list
Dumb comment.
[deleted]
Pretty sure he has already done that
What should Trmup be doing about Covid now ?
R E S I G N !!!!
Give the Biden transition team access to all government available data NOW!
Who says he hasn't?
You're distracted by his efforts to show all cheating the Democrats pulled to rig the election.
Since you wrote a top level comment, you must be directing that question to me (seeder).
Who says he has not what?
Just how did they do that, Greg? And please show evidence not just some stuff you blew out of your nose
Thus far he has lost 25 cases. The one case that they are calling a victory was nothing more than confirming another decision that already had been implemented by the state.
At the very best Trump, 1 win 25 losses.
If anyone is distracted it would be Bunker Boy if the best you can do to date in have a 1 and 25 record you are truly a LOSER.
What a crock....
What a lawyer /s
Poor clueless little snowflakes crying "FOUL! CHEATERS! FRAUD!" when one of the leading snowflakes Graham just pressured a state to throw out Biden votes.
He puts the "criminal" in criminal attorney.
Yesterday, Thursday, November 19th, 2020 the United States of America recorded 187,833 new COVID19 cases and 2,015 deaths.
In other news, Trump keeps filing lawsuits to subvert the vote of millions of Americans after losing three more lawsuits yesterday.
No word from Trump on the devastation the virus is causing.
No word because he doesn't care.
Why does he need to say something that is painfully obvious to most living breathing citizens who have local and national news/internet reading and listening capabilities?
Perhaps because some people look to the leadership for guidance or reassurance or even just acknowledgement of what's going on? But then, given his poor response to Covid, Trump is not the type of leader to look to for any of those things.
Perhaps to counter his earlier downplaying of the virus and its effects. Heading into the holiday season, it would be wise for him to discourage large gatherings for dinner and black Friday shopping. For some reason, some of his followers still think he's worth listening to. Perhaps he could have a positive effect on their holiday plans.
He could have done that for Thanksgiving. He didn't.
Let's try to get this into our skulls:
Donald Trump does not
give a flying fuck
how many Americans die!
Unadulterated, unfounded bullshit Bob.
Bob, you'll have to make an argument rather than plastering your opinion.
A quarter-million dead. Well over a thousand dying every day. We hear nothing from the President.
Is he lending a hand to specialists, to inform the American people about what to do? ... No.
Is he visiting hospitals to show his solidarity with the dying? ... No.
His indifference to the plight of the American people is right before your eyes.
But of course... your Faith in your god-Trump is so much more important than what you see with your own eyes...
Perhaps "some" should put on their big boy pants and take responsibility for their own actions or lack thereof. Why in the holy hell wait for GovCo to tell them what to do? It's called common sense and not being a sheep .........................
Total denial to the truth that Bob speaks to on your part Jim.
Trump doesn't care because he is focused on trying to overturn the results of a free and fair election that he lost. How many ton of brick need to fall on you to admit the to both of these truths?
That's the point. I fucking see it with my own eyes..........as do millions of other Americans. He pushed for a speedy vaccine and it is surely available within weeks. And prove he is indifferent. You can't.
How in the hell does he lend a hand? The specialists are all over the news both here and abroad. There should be no "reinforcement" necessary for those who think for themselves.
And risk possibly getting it again or possibly, since he had it already, perhaps he could spread it. I feel for all of those who have lost loved ones. A lot. But reinforcement is only as good as those who heed it.
Vaccine coming in weeks.
Donald Trump did that, not the dumb ass president-elect!
The problem is, many people do lack common sense and many are sheep, as we see with many Trump supporters hanging on to or parroting his every word. And because people lack common sense or personal responsibility, they pose a risk to themselves and others. A competant leader can at least direct or inspire people to do what is necessary.
Don't need any bricks. Save them for distribution to the next Antifa BLM riots.
Ever hear of multi-tasking? It means one can concentrate on more than one thing at a time. You, I, or ANY of us know NOT what he thinks and the goings on within the confines of the White House and within the DHHS behind closed doors.
Focus Pocus....................
OK, Jim...
I'm done.
You demonstrated that your faith in the god-Trump blinds you to reality. That's what I wanted. You delivered.
No, scientists did that. Our anti science president had little to do with it.
Actually... the drug companies did it.
Trump had nothing to do with it.
Honestly, considering his past performances in medical settings, refusing to mask, it's probably best he doesn't visit hospitals.
Your outrage is phony.
Show us some Democrats who care
... his past failures justify his present failures...
No, he didn't. Scientists did. Credit goes to the researchers at Pfizer and Moderna, not to a politician who wouldn't know a test tube from a beaker and suggested injecting disinfectant.
Trump's administration has consistently worked against the scientists fighting this pandemic - from Trump and his staff refusing to wear masks or social distance (remember the super-spreader event in the Rose Garden?) to undermining state governors' attempts to limit spread.
Holy F, Greg!
Is it too much to ask, that the fucking President of the fucking USA gives the example?
Only after the red tape was cut and the partnership between government & science was formed.
Yes sir, Donald Trump did that!
Wrong again, Bob.
Operation warp speed cut the red tape, coordinated and allocated the necessary funds to get it done at the unheard of time table of months rather than years.
Selfless leadership under fire. Who else was going to do it?
No Sandy, it was operation Warp Speed. In a matter of weeks I'll be getting a vaccine.
Thank you President Trump!
Seems to me you are the one assigning God to this. Right there says people NEED to hear it from Trump alone. I, my friend, am not blinded whatsoever. Your blindness to see what is right in front of your face is on full display. Your need to blame someone besides the American, and for that matter world, citizenry for their lack of understanding. Do you know anything of the Middle Eastern countries under dictatorship rule? Just as in Iraq, and Libya and several others, those people have been controlled for so long that they don't know what the hell to do unless they are told. That is why Democracy will not sink in for generations to come. I do NOT want to stand by and let this country slide into that same abyss that you seem to think is necessary.
A competant leader can at least direct or inspire people to do what is necessary.
If they don't know what to do or how to act by now, they don't care. [deleted]
How many weeks? I can express a year in terms of weeks, you know. Attempts to make an elapsed period of time seem short by expressing it in "weeks" are transparent.
And Trump still didn't make a single vial of vaccine. Actually, I'm glad he's kept out of labs. His little stunt of refusing to mask when touring a lab producing cotton swabs for Covid-19 tests, thereby rendering them all useless, set back testing efforts.
You're giving credit to the wrong guy, here, Vic. Scientists deserve your thanks.
And Pfizer, one of the companies whose vaccine is promising, was not part of Operation Warp Speed.
Not even in Congress. Pelosi and company are bickering over bullshit funding of pet projects to go along with the relief bills. If they gave a shit they wouldn't be holding up every aspect of said relief. Trump himself even TOLD them to break the wants and needs down to simpler, more definitive pieces and he would sign it as soon as it landed on his desk. But they want to play games. Agree that both sides, to an extent, are to blame as Senate wants less but the House wants more. They don't give a fuck about real relief. They, themselves except for political posturing and reasons, don't feel the personal need.
Do you honesty think people give a shit about what a president thinks?
Wait until old weak Biden starts gaffing
So what!
As far as development, you're correct. But if you don't think that a $1.95 billion carrot hanging out there drove them to dive in, you are probably sorely mistaken.
Excellent response, Greg.
So, what was the impetus for other companies developing vaccines, such as Pfizer? Who gets credit for their vaccines? Their stockholders?
I guess you can all thank each other. Operation Warp Speed was funded with taxpayer money. If we're going to skip over the scientists, and give credit instead to those providing funding, well, then, I'll accept your thanks. I made the vaccine, since I paid for it (along with you, of course). Thanks, and you're welcome.
Let me start with that. I know that as soon as Pfizer announced that they were ready to request emergency approval, the Times & Post set out to deny Trump the credit he deserved:
"The Times quoted Kathrin Jansen, the head of vaccine development at Pfizer as saying, “We have never taken money from the US government or from anyone,” and then went on to claim Pfizer was never a part of Operation Warp Speed.
"As NPR reported in July , the government reached a deal for nearly two billion dollars to help distribute the vaccine. Pfizer’s own press release in July announced that the U.S. government placed an initial order of 100 million doses for $1.95 billion. No money went specifically into the vaccine’s research and development, but Pfizer absolutely did take government money, and was forced to walk back Jansen’s statement.
In an update to their story, Newsweek provided this key clarification, “This page has been updated to clarify Jansen’s comments following further details from a Pfizer spokesperson. The spokesperson clarified that its vaccine is linked to Operation Warp Speed , though its research and development has not taken funding from the federal government. The headline was also updated for clarity.”
Now this
How many weeks?
A few as opposed to the year/years it normally takes!
BTW Pfizer had to have known before the election how effective their vaccine was. We tried to tell our readers what would happen.
It amazes me that anyone could think that Big Pharma would not be going for a vaccine as fast as possible, regardless of what any government might do.
The vaccine will mean tens or hundreds of billions in profits.
Does anyone really think that a Buck Rodgers comic-book label - "operation Warp Speed", for God's sake! - would make Big Pharma move faster to collect the Big Bucks??
Jeez!
So, Pfizer wasn't part of Operation Warp Speed, but, like any other company, will sell its product for money to the US government after having developed it without government funding. And credit for that goes to Trump how? Does buying something give one credit for having developed it?
Quite the stretch.
"A few" is still a relative term, Vic. Truth is, you don't know when you'll be getting the vaccine. Neither do I. And neither does Trump. But he, like you, would like for the time to seem as short as possible, so he can appear to have been a success, while riding others' coattails.
Who is the we in your last sentence?
I will give the trmp administration credit for getting money to Big Pharma to get a move on the vaccine development.
It was definitely linked to it.
And credit for that goes to Trump how?
Cutting the red tape and paving the way.
"A few" is still a relative term, Vic. Truth is, you don't know when you'll be getting the vaccine. Neither do I. And neither does Trump.
But you know very well that the FDA will act quickly and as long as I get it before Jan 21st I'll consider it an enormous achievement. One that was fostered by the man you hate!
I only hope I get past the next few weeks without contracting the China virus.
BTW: FDA approval could come as early as TODAY!
At whose direction?....................Oh and thanks and you're welcome back.
A few of our Conservative Ladies as I recall and Oh ya, me. Some did mention how the vaccine announcement would probably be made after the election.
I will give the trmp administration credit for getting money to Big Pharma to get a move on the vaccine development.
And cutting the red tape?
According to Friday’s press release , the answer is “within hours after authorization.”
Approval could come TODAY
Trump, as current PotUS, gets credit (and blame) for what occurs on his watch. He thus gets credit for the quick development of a vaccine.
But all a PotUS can do in this regard is knock down barriers so that the drug company scientists are best enabled to develop a vaccine. So let's be clear on credit:
Nothing to argue about.
Note, by the way, that Trump was highly motivated to find a vaccine for political reasons. Having a vaccine helps him politically and that is all that a narcissist needs to pursue an initiative. Maybe Trump also has some shred of empathy too and that would motivate him to pursue a vaccine as well. But given the way this guy thinks (as evidenced by the past four years) there is very little doubt in my mind that his uber-primary motivation for the vaccine initiative was because having one benefited him personally. This, now, is just my opinion but I am confident I am seeing this correctly.
I think those are all valid points. I never said Trump gets all the credit, just his share.
Others think he should get more:
Here's the caring....................
Geraldo also promoted Al Capone's empty safe.
He said call it "the Trump vaccine" so he must be smeared - Yup!
another prediction?
SMH
It was a warning. It just turned out to be spot on!
It sucks being right all the time.
BTW, that was a good second thought.
My comment really applies to the thread. These discussions tend to go to extremes and we miss the common-sense objective facts.
He hasn't said anything except for "It is what it is." and that the CV affects virtually nobody.
Oh, well, now I'm convinced. Almost. I guess I'd be actually convinced if Jerry Springer weighed in.
Capitalism and self preservation are the driving factors.
Butt, Trump did give the drug companies the largest pool of sick people to research
nicely packed within our borders.
Another prediction?
Reality says you are not right all the time, not even close.
As far as "cutting red tape" - how much of that "red tape" relates to actually requiring safety and efficacy? At this point, any vaccine can only be said to be effective in the short term. We won't and can't know if it's effective long-term for years.
Trump gets partial credit for funding vaccine research. Not for actually making the vaccine, and certainly not for taking coronavirus seriously. He's not the hero in this. His words and actions have hindered slowing the spread. On the whole, he has had a negative rather than positive role.
Reporting actual facts about him - a story he mistakenly hyped to a great extent himself, is a smear? Trump seems to use that same incorrect definition. Sad that some folks buy into it.
sorry, more red tape still in place.
Then it will likely go to health workers first, then teachers before Pfizer ( 2 shots, extreme difficulty with cold storage)
runs out.
By then Moderna should be available ( one shot, easier cold storage ).
Then the other 180 vaccines might catch up
but it will take up to a year to vaccinate the USA and possibly 3 years to vaccinate the whole world, sort of.
The Salk vaccine came out in the early 1950's and we still have wild polio in a few countries.
Be very cautious of over optimism.
But... but... but... Warp Speed...
Rivera....You are not the father. What you are is a mutha.
Your point JJ?
Pfizer's requires extreme frozen storage for which the infrastructure is scarce.
Pfizers vaccine is 2 shots required.
So does that mean the $2 billion contract for 100 million doses they were awarded ( no bid )
will cover 100 million people or just 50 million?
50 million in 2020 or 25 million in the remaining 41 days of 2020 is an impossibilty
( not that someone won't claim its done )
Especially if VBRPAC has it's hearings.
Now where will Pfizer be shipping to?
Various military sites and hospitals that have super cold storage.
Remember the PPE pissing wars between the states and the Feds?
Starting all over again over deep freezers...
Rural areas? Forget it.
So, Trump didn't make the vaccine, correct?
Yes, I fully agree that getting the vaccine out is clearly the most important factor.
But we were discussing motives and credit. So when discussing motives and credit it is appropriate to ... discuss motives and credit.
He wasn't trying to convince anyone, giving the vaccine that name might just be the right thing to do.
It is a smear and it was used to diminish Rivera specifically because he wanted to name the vaccine after the man who helped get it ready in record time. Those would be the facts Sandy. Calling people names never by itself equates to truth, especially something as emotionally charged as the perceptions involving someone as controversial as Donald Trump.
Many thought it was a miracle that the vaccine would be ready by the end of the year. Somebody who wants to highlight that feat shouldn't be disparaged for it.
It was a fact about Rivera's history. He hyped the vault. The vault was empty. It played out on national television with Rivera's enthusiastic participation.
Nobody called anybody a name, here, Vic. But if that bothers you, you may wish to mention it to Trump himself, as he seems quite fond of doing so. You wouldn't want folks to think you hold some folks to higher standards than others for political reasons, would you?
No, you're trying to use his opinion to support your own. The opinion of a former tabloid TV show host doesn't hold much weight with most people.
Says the man who routinely calls the previous POTUS a POS.
Irony, meet your equal.
I'll believe it when I see it. Since Trump's every word is a lie.....
Nobody has ever lied as well as Trump. He has the best lies.
And it was mentioned to diminish what was a noble idea that Rivera offered up. Time for you to admit what goes on here.
Nobody called anybody a name, here, Vic.
He and you just called Rivera a fraud - because neither of you liked his gesture. Oh, that's right, he didn't do it specifically, but not so subtly either.
Every one of you will be called out for it. That's the way it is.
To the contrary - I said Others think he should get more
Not routinely, probably once. I suppose to an Obama lover it seems like I did it a lot. If you didn't have individuals being allowed to call the current President names 24/7, I might not have to stoop to their level. Did you ever think of that? Maybe it's time to leave our personal bias at the door and raise the level of conversation around here? It's only been 4 years of hateful vitriol.
I doubt it.
I beg to differ.
Trump colluding with Russia and Michael Brown surrendering were the two biggest lies of the past decade as far as I'm concerned.
A "noble idea". Thanks for the chuckle, Vic. I needed that. Pandering and fawning are "noble". Obsequiousness is "noble".
What have some of us become?
I didn't call him a fraud. He mistakenly hyped the vault story. He also gloried in a genre that promoted sleaze and violence. If his credibility isn't what he would like for it to be, he has only himself to blame.
Those who repeatedly put words in the mouths of others should take note.
Not even close. Trump is the Liar King and his insistence that he won the presidential election (as recently as yesterday) is the whopper of all time. His ongoing claims that there is massive voter fraud, dead people voting, and machines changing votes is right up there with the rest of his BS.
You missed the humor? I combined language patterns used by Trump to make a Trump-like statement.
Trump: “Nobody has more respect for women than I do.” + Trump:“I know words. I have the best words.”
⇒ Nobody has ever lied as well as Trump. He has the best lies.
That established, and seriously now, Trump is by far the most prolific liar I have observed in my lifetime.
Gee...
I distinctly remember Obama on TV, recounting how he personally slit Bin Laden's throat. ... or maybe not...
Butt, Trump did give the drug companies the largest pool of sick people to research
nicely packed within our borders.
An unsupported accusation, lacking any credible evidence.
Actually, it's quite well supported by anyone that can read. There have been over 12,000,000 COVID19 cases in the US. That's quite the pool to draw from.
The legacy media organizations like the New York Times, that did so much injury to their own reputations over Donald Trump, will now wither and die. Their circulation was tied to the Trump hating left who loved reading the resistance pieces. There won't be much interest in such a tool any more.
I think I got ya now.
Wouldn't he have used a better, more ultimate superlative, like I'm the greatest liar in the history of mankind?
Oh I see, he is mistake prone and that's the reason his every thought can be dismissed. Got it!
No, I'm fairly sure that those who put words in the mouths of others, as continues to be done here, are well aware of what they are doing. It's not a mistake. It's willfully done. It just doesn't net the results they want, and calls into question their credibility, especially when they continue to use the tactic after it's pointed out.
We have you on record now as calling the Chicago vault debacle a mistake. Please tell us how Rivera making a mistake discredits his idea of naming the vaccine after the President who sped up it's development?
I really don't think you're following the conversation here, but ok.
The vault debacle was a mistake because it was, as you said, a debacle. He hyped it too much, and it made him look silly. He didn't deliver the goods. But that is hardly the only mistake he made in his "journalistic" career that would call into question his credibility. His show was the National Enquirer of daytime television. The sleazier, the better. He played to the lowest common denominator for years. And now he reaps the results of that.
At least I was able to get you to the point of admitting what you were doing. Now you've added "His show was the National Enquirer of daytime television." Is that another "mistake?" Either way, after taking us all around the Mulberry bush, you are basically discrediting Rivera from voicing what many would consider a logical & valid opinion.
Thank you.
What you said I was doing was namecalling - you specifically said I called him a fraud. I have not. I called his action a mistake (not the only one he made) that harmed his credibility. Saying I'm doing something I'm demonstrably not doing also calls into question credibility.
I agree. Moreover, these misquotes are often intentional, to purposely misrepresent.
NT could stop this, by requiring direct citations, with links.
Of course they are. Some folks don't like being called on them, either. Or try to pretend to be oblivious to having been called on them.
I said it with this qualifier: "Oh, that's right, he didn't do it specifically, but not so subtly either." Don't forget you took on somebody else's argument. Recently you just added "His show was the National Enquirer of daytime television." How should we interpret that? You absolutely discredited Rivera, whether you want to go with your specific claim that he made a "mistake" or the implication both you and your friend made. The undeniable fact remains that Rivera offered a reasonable opinion and you tried to dismiss it with an attack on Rivera. Maybe it's time to simply admit it?
Produce a quote, Vic, or you're just spinning your wheels and killing your own credibility here.
It's not my credibility that's on the line. Somebody should have at least set an example here when it came to smearing public figures. I know it's allowed, but it has been seriously abused. I like to think that NT is better than that.
Of course it is. You're the one who repeatedly puts words in others' mouths, while being unable to support your assertions. It's a tactic you've used with me before, and been called on. Continuing to use that tactic weakens your argument, because it calls into question your credibility.
Bet you really wish you could lock this discussion, don't ya?
Save that for your buddies. Ya, this is when you get personal.
My case has been made. You need a DC jury or maybe the Simpson jury to get out of this one.
Still no quotes?
Vic, you have repeatedly accused me of saying something I haven't said. The discussion is here for all to read. If you could produce evidence of me having said what you've accused me of having said, you would. It would be right upthread, on this same page, and therefore easily found. You can't. Your repeated unfounded accusations are personal. If you don't want things to be personal, don't make repeated false accusations.
That won't do it, Sandy. I got you covered on your specific statements about mistakes as well as the implication. Either way you can't justify smearing Rivera because he offered an opinion that you don't like!
If you don't want things to be personal, don't make repeated false accusations.
Now you're going to try and justify the personal attack. You did add that little swipe about closing articles. That won't be forgotten.
This isn't rocket science, Vic.
If you don't supply a link, everyone understands that you're just makin' shit up again.
Quotes, Vic.
Bob, She's a big girl, she doesn't need you to fight her battles.
You went with mistake, right?
He's just pointing out that you have still been unable to produce a quote. No, I don't really need his help, as you're doing just fine proving that you can't produce a quote, but his support is appreciated, and it is a public forum.
Does "mistake" equal "fraud", Vic? What dictionary are you using?
Are you now backing away from saying that he made "mistakes?"
but his support is appreciated, and it is a public forum.
I gave you more credit than needing Bob. I guess I over estimated you.
Nope. Are you equating "mistake" with "fraud"?
That's good. Now go back and read post # 8.2.93 and you will see that your specific statement via "mistake" works the same as claiming fraud. The point you are desperately trying to escape is that you are trying to smear Rivera in order to dismiss the opinion you so dislike.
Are you equating "mistake" with "fraud"?
Either serves the same purpose - to dismiss a reasoned opinion. The point of this entire go-around!
No, I see you claiming that saying he made a mistake is the same as calling him a fraud. I realize you really want to support your accusation here, but changing word definitions doesn't cut it, Vic.
"battles"..... wow
I got involved so that you'd understand that there are spectators... who are watchin' you make shit up.
Wrong again. I'm saying either serves the same purpose and I think we both have covered the same points long enough. I'll now let you have what your friends feel is the all important last word.
You can tell us all how you never used the word "fraud" and therefore, somehow you won the debate. Except of course, you didn't.
Ok, so that it's easier for us all to read, here are your words from @8.2.93
See how easy it is to produce quotes from the same thread? Easy peasy.
You have produced this quote in support of your accusation that I called Geraldo a fraud. Just a little hint - producing your own words as evidence of what you say my words were is, well, not especially helpful to your case. It is lost on nobody that you are, again, substituting your words for mine, because you can't find any of mine to suit your argument.
So, if you aren't trying to equate my having said Geraldo made a mistake with me calling him a fraud, what is your point here? You keep saying I said he made a mistake. Yes, I did say that, because he did make a mistake. That is not the same as calling him a fraud. Mistakes are not fraud.
Obama sat in on the planning of the mission but was smart enough to let the professionals do their jobs.
Trump claims to be smarter than all of the generals and all intelligence agencies. narcissism is a very dangerous personality disorder for a president.
Here's a great example of you makin' shit up, Vic.
Sandy said "appreciate", which you transform into "need".
It's dishonest, Vic.
Blatantly dishonest.
"Appreciate" = "need".
"Mistake" = "fraud".
Nope.
Direct quotes and links are pretty easy. Just copy / paste.
So when someone never uses them, and instead posts "reformulations", the obvious suspicion must be that they're makin' shit up.
They can easily avoid this suspicion by... .... using direct quotes and links.
Funny how Trump argued with and contradicted scientists when it came to Covid.
Funding is usually within the purview of Congress.
The same "leadership" that downplayed Covid or said "it would go away."
The pharmaceutical company that produces the vaccine should get the thanks.
Perhaps because he deserves very little.
You seem to think he deserves a big share?
I'm not. When he first took office, I tried to keep an open mind - didn't want him to fail, because he'd take the country along with him, hoped he'd hire good advisors, etc. But once it was clear that his administration was going to be characterized by nepotism, self-dealing, and greed, nothing negative he has done has surprised me.
What has surprised me a bit is the number of people who admit he's a terrible person, who say they support him for his policies, but who still believe it's unthinkable that he lost the election. I mean, they know he's despised by a fairly large portion of the population. He has been for decades, well before entering politics. How could they think that election fraud would be necessary for him to lose? Did they think that the intense dislike of him and his policies wouldn't mobilize voters?
Donald Trump is the only president in US history (since the polling era began) to have never reached 50% approval rating at any point in his term. The surprise would have been if he won the election.
Right there with you Sandy..... I never knew that the Trump Kool-Aid would be so strong.
It's difficult even for a self-proclaimed ''really smart guy'' to multitask. After all, he is filing numerous lawsuits, of which he is 0 for 30, and hiding in the bunker to pay much attention to thousands of dead Americans or to even allow the administration pandemic team to communicate with the incoming administration.
You're right, K...
We really should show more comprehension and compassion. After all, the man is suffering!
Actually he did win a minor one which will have little to no effect on the results.
OK, we'll give him a token win and add yesterday's three losses that leave him at 1 and 33....
It political parlance that type of a record is known as a ''SHITSHOW".