Spree of federal executions during Trump's lame-duck period and pandemic is unprecedented
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Brandon Bernard was 18 when he was arrested as an accomplice in the 1999 kidnapping and murder of two youth ministers on a secluded stretch of the Fort Hood military reservation in Texas.
On Thursday evening, Bernard, now 40, is set to become the youngest person, based on the age when the crime occurred, in nearly seven decades to be executed by the federal government.
Of the next five scheduled federal executions, four of them, including Bernard's, involve Black men; the fifth person, Lisa Montgomery, would be the first woman to be executed by the federal government in nearly 70 years.
Already in 2020, the federal government has put eight people to death, including the only Native American on federal death row, whose execution in August was opposed by his tribe, the Navajo Nation.
Together, these cases reflect a detachment from this year's "awakening on the racial injustice that is endemic to our criminal legal system," Robert Dunham, executive director of the nonpartisan Death Penalty Information Center, said.
"The myth for years has been that the federal criminal justice system was more advanced and fairer than the state court systems and did not suffer from the same legacy of racism and bigotry," Dunham said.
A Death Penalty Information Center report released in September examined the historical context of how capital punishment has been a tool for authority over Black Americans. Since executions were reintroduced in the United States in 1977, nearly 300 Black defendants have been executed for the murder of a white victim, while only 21 white defendants have been executed for the murder of a Black victim, the report said.
Earlier this year, while the center notes that white men made up the majority of the defendants who were executed by the federal government, the victims in those cases were also white.
"These cases illustrate that on the federal level, as well, the lives of white victims still matter more than the lives of Black victims," Dunham said, "and the lives of defendants of color matter less than anyone else."
Executions resume
The Trump administration and the Department of Justice under Attorney General William Barr ramped up executions in July after a 17-year hiatus on the federal level — a combination of the lack of priority under previous administrations, concerns over botched executions and the delays caused by extended appeals.
Barr in July said the those slated for death were among "the worst criminals." The Justice Department did not immediately respond to a request for further comment.
No state has carried out executions since July, when Texas did so.
Critics argue that employing death sentences during a pandemic is unsafe, particularly when it requires inmates, their families and legal representatives, and teams of federal execution specialists to travel to the federal prison in Terre Haute, Indiana, where executions are held.
Following one federal execution in November, eight members of a 40-person federal execution team later tested positive for Covid-19 after returning home, according to a court declaration of a Federal Bureau of Prisons official filed this week in response to a lawsuit by two Terra Haute prisoners seeking to halt the executions.
The exact circumstances for how the team members became infected was not detailed, but five of those staffers are expected to take part in separate executions scheduled this week, including of Bernard. A Justice Department lawyer said during a federal court hearing Tuesday that "it is difficult to even make the assumptions they contracted it during the execution" in November, and that protocols for upcoming executions are adequate.
The execution chamber in the U.S. penitentiary in Terre Haute, Ind., on March 22, 1995.Chuck Robinson / AP file
But the number of infected could potentially be higher since the testing of members of the execution team is not mandatory, Cassandra Stubbs, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Capital Punishment Project, said.
"These executions were wrong for a whole host of reasons related to the quality of counsel, how many of these prisoners had intellectual disabilities or evidence on a racial basis," she said. "So what's truly breathtaking is how the government has inflicted so much illness and allowing the risk of death to carry out these executions now when they don't have to."
The initial execution date for Montgomery, who was convicted in 2007 of strangling a Missouri woman who was eight months pregnant and taking her unborn baby, was moved from December to Jan. 12 after her attorneys caught Covid-19 and couldn't prepare her clemency application.
The last of the upcoming five executions is scheduled for Jan. 15, five days before the inauguration of President-elect Joe Biden, who campaigned on passing legislation to eliminate the death penalty at the federal level. Instead, his aides say, he supports death row inmates serving life sentences without probation or parole.
Barr told The Associated Press he's likely to schedule more executions before he leaves the Justice Department. The Justice Department last month amended its execution protocols, paving the way for other methods, such as firing squads and poison gas, in addition to lethal injection. The rule goes into effect Dec. 24.
Dunham said the way the Trump administration is moving ahead with its "federal execution spree" during a lame-duck period has no parallel.
"The sheer appetite for killing prisoners is unprecedented in modern American presidential history," he added.
Changing minds
Angela Moore, a former federal prosecutor for the Western District of Texas, was standing in her bathroom in September getting ready for work when a news report on the radio caught her off guard: The federal government had executed Christopher Vialva, a Black man and the accused ringleader in the Texas murder that involved Bernard as an accomplice.
Moore was the prosecutor who had argued against Bernard's appeal of his death verdict. She had thought about him over the years, she said, assuming he would spend the rest of his life on death row since the U.S. had not executed anyone for nearly two decades. But hearing that Vialva was killed meant that Bernard would face the same fate.
Christopher Vialva in the federal prison complex in Terre Haute, Ind.Courtesy of Susan Otto / via AP
Her name had been on death warrants for cases such as Bernard's that ultimately left her questioning whether capital punishment was an effective deterrent against crime.
In these cases, she said, prosecutors seek convictions, in part, to make names for themselves and get promoted, as she had sought; young Black males are often cast to juries as being "dangerous," and not viewed with humanity; and juries are left to trust that the criminal justice system and courts are foolproof enough to catch flaws in the prosecution or defense.
"I no longer support the death penalty," Moore, who is white and now in private practice, said. "I felt like I needed to step up and take responsibility. I saw this man did not deserve to die."
She's now speaking out against Bernard's execution, writing an op-ed in The Indianapolis Star in November that although Bernard was an adult in 1999, he "lacked an adult's capacity to control his impulses, consider alternative courses of action or anticipate the consequences of his behavior." Emerging scientific studies indicate that teenagers' brains are still developing and maturing through their mid-20s.
Brandon Bernard was sentenced to death as an accomplice in a 1999 murder of a Texas couple.Help Save Brandon
A jury of 11 white people and one Black person found Bernard and Vialva guilty in the deaths of Todd and Stacie Bagley, married youth pastors who were white. Vialva was 19 at the time. Three others involved in the couple's deaths were not legal adults and ineligible for the death penalty, but pleaded guilty and were sentenced to prison.
Prosecutors said the group devised a plan to intimidate and rob a victim with a gun, and they had come across the Bagleys, according to documents. Vialva was identified as the leader and gunman who fatally shot the couple in their heads. Bernard was accused of buying the lighter fluid and setting the couple's car on fire with them in it, although the other members of the group testified they hadn't seen him do it.
One of the jurors in Bernard's case, Gary McClung Jr., wrote this week for the progressive-leaning American Constitution Society that he now regrets agreeing to the death penalty for him.
"At the time of the trial, I felt that Mr. Bernard was a follower, pressured by his friends into participating in the situation that led to the murders," McClung said. "I did not think he would have participated if he knew the victims would be killed, and I did not think he would have taken any action to personally kill anyone."
Bernard's attorney, Rob Owen, said four other jurors have also come forward to attest that they no longer support the death penalty in the case. In addition, Owen said the federal government hid certain evidence in the case that could have changed the outcome of Bernard's sentencing.
"Brandon must not be executed until the courts have fully addressed the constitutionality of his sentence," Owen said in a statement Tuesday.
A federal judge in Waco last week denied a motion to pause the execution after federal prosecutors argued that the defense's 11th-hour claims were previously rebuffed in court.
Family for the Bagleys could not immediately be reached for comment. Todd Bagley's mother previously released a statement after Vialva's execution expressing gratitude that justice was served for her son and his wife.
"The story was focused on Vialva's life and the changes that he has made," Georgia Bagley said. "This is not about him and his changed life, but about the victims in this case ... Please remember the victims and their families whose lives have been shattered and are still trying to cope."
Reality television personality Kim Kardashian West, who has championed criminal justice cases by soliciting the help of President Donald Trump, tweeted her support of a campaign asking him to stop Bernard's execution.
Brandon Bernard, a 40-year-old father is going to be executed tomorrow by our federal government. Having gotten to know Brandon, I am heartbroken about this execution. I'm calling on @realDonaldTrump to grant Brandon a commutation and allow him to live out his sentence in prison. https://t.co/soccUQFmac
— Kim Kardashian West (@KimKardashian) December 9, 2020
Moore said she understands that victims and their loved ones are owed a right to retribution and closure for horrific crimes. But society as a whole, she added, shouldn't lose sight that Bernard has long expressed remorse and turned his life around behind bars as a model prisoner who helps at-risk youth.
"He used his time in prison to serve his community and somehow changed as a human being, knowing he'd be executed and that none of these good deeds would make a difference for him," Moore said.
"We have a blood lust in this country," she added, "and I don't know where it's coming from."
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Trump's new TV program will not be called "The Apprentice", it will be called "The Assassin".
The first part of her sentence indicates to me that she can see clearly, but the second half indicates that she's blind as a bat.
If you don't like the punishment, don't commit the crime!
A zillion studies have shown that no punishment dissuades crime.
if assholes can't follow laws to protect us all, too bad.
at least that will be one less murderer being supported by law abiding citizens.
I just can't get worked up over criminals and bleeding hearts whining about it.
Punishments aren't meant to dissuade crime. Theyre meant as punishments for crimes.
Sure. But the death penalty is a very particular punishment: it ends immediately, when it is applied.
It is a just punishment for horrendous crimes.
No sense in prolonging the guilty's punishment for decades, by incarcerating them in a cell.
One and done!
Yes, and? It sounds like it gets the job done.
OK... we're repeating ourselves, to no end.
See ya 'round...
How so? You mention the death penalty and I happened to agree with you about its application. What's the problem?
Yeah, it's really working, isn't it.
Interesting, isn't it, that CIVILIZED WESTERN countries have banned capital punishment, and even more interesting is that their murder rates are so much less than America's.
A zillion studies have shown that the death penalty is not dissuasive.
But the recidivism rate is a perfect zero.
As with "life without parole".
A waste of space and resources.
In fact, death row prisoners cost more than lifers.
money well spent.
Unless they escape. Nah, prisoners never escape, right?
Correlation does not imply causation. Besides, the death penalty is utilized rather rarely, less than 1500 times in the last 45 years. That averages to about 33 executions/year. Many states have already banned capital punishment too.
Mainly because of lengthy appeals processes. Not to mention the cost of the method of execution. Although, bullets should be cheap and plentiful.
[deleted]
And you've slid into personal attacks. Is my post inaccurate?
Then you are opposed to any Trump pardons? Especially to his friends, family, and himself?
What would they even need pardons for, pre-emptive even, if they didn't do anything wrong?
Yeah, this is probably its main failing as a deterrent. Studies show that certainty of being caught and punished is a far greater deterrent than the severity of potential punishment. Thus, if the death penalty is rarely carried out, it has little or no effect as a deterrent.
If death were a certain consequence of committing crime, no one would do it (unless they were suicidal, I suppose).
I don’t mean to advocate for the death penalty, but the fact is that it’s pointless if it doesn’t get used all the time.
Wow, spectacular deflection. Been working on that one for a while?
Just trying to determine if you stand by your own statement. I notice that you are avoiding answering it.
It was never meant to be a deterrent. Only a punishment. But if it does deter a crime, then that's a bonus.
That's the thing, avoiding the death penalty is probably not that difficult. A criminal is more likely to receive life in prison than the death penalty. Especially given the appeals process, the judicial system, individual feelings regarding capital punishment, and how well the defense and prosecuting sides perform (plea deals, extenuating circumstances, ect.). Some states have eliminated the death penalty as a punishment too.
That reminds me of an old episode of Star Trek: TNG, where a planet is completely peaceful. But any and all crimes (even misdemeanors) risk incurring a death penalty, depending on which region they happen. The location is not revealed to the populace and is changed randomly. Since no one knows if they would be subject to death, they do not commit any crime.
It becomes a largely empty threat.
Why do you insist on deflecting?
Why do you insist on avoiding?
Please feel free to go troll someone else.
Always? As easy as that?
You obviously do not actually believe what you claim in these comment sections then. You do it just to get a rise from people?
[deleted]
That's because we keep them too long.
And yet you are still refusing to stand up for your own claim. Pitiful...
hey, it isn't MY problem that you are deflecting--that is a YOU problem!
Enjoy it!
So, my asking you to support your own claim is deflecting.....
[deleted]
That is the bottom line here. I’m glad that this is being done. These are people who have committed the worst of crimes we are talking about here.
How’s the effort to end capital punishment in a certain uncivilized far eastern country?
Most likely no better than it is in a certain supposedly civilized western country. Pot - kettle.
That’s silly. They’re just enforcing the law. Trump didn’t invent the death penalty.
Really? Are all laws carved in granite? Why have civilized countries banned the death penalty and America still metes out primitive penalties? Did you ever watch the West Wing clip where Jed Bartlet confronts Dr. Jacobs on biblical beliefs? Example: Should Leo be put to death because he worked on the Sabbath?
Until they are changed, yes. Trump and the DOJ do not write the laws, but they have sworn an oath to enforce them. Congress makes the laws. If you want to blame someone in federal government for not getting rid of the death penalty, you may start with Nancy Pelosi.
I'm sure Trump was very happy with their decision. Actually, I've just developed a new respect for the SCOTUS, now that they told the Texas A.G. to shove his vote-cancelling lawsuit up his ass.
However, it was at Trump's behest that the executions are being carried out NOW during his lame duck period, before Biden would have the opportunity to ban federal executions.
Didn't Biden announce that he would ban the federal death penalty? Trump is the one who not only required the executions to take place during his lame duck period, and even had more methods to kill acceptable to make sure there can be no glitches to cause a delay. I'm surprised he didn't add the guillotine to the list, since it's a pretty effective method to kill KILL KILL.
Presidential candidates promise all sorts of things that presidents don't actually have the authority to do.
Who cares about this? Do you imagine he stops being president because he will be leaving office soon?
That's dumb, irrational, and hysterical. Geez.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I didn't say Biden WOULD do it, I asked whether he announced that he would.
Of couirse not. It gives him more than two months to do all the damage he possibly can to make it difficult for Biden to set things right.
Oh, but allowing the use of hanging, electric chair and shooting, all of which have been proven to have caused cruel and unusual punishment when they didn't cause death immediately, doesn't deserve a suggestion of a foolproof instant death method to mock Trump's intent?
Please explain how you can consider death by one of those methods cruel and unusual, but seem to have absolutely no qualms about incarcerating someone in a cell for decades and decades.
Gee is nice that you put down the US for having and implementing the death penalty (22 times in 2019) while say nothing about [removed] China. (1000 executions in 2019)
I'm not a murderer.
Hanging and the chair might take a few minutes and qualify as cruel and unusual punishment. But a firing squad being in that category is debatable. A shot to the head will be quick.
Nor am I.
Yeah, some people might find some kind of pleasure in watching a person strangle to death, or vibrate while the electric shock slowly kills them. And then not everyone is a marksman, and they can miss where the bullets would cause instant death.
Oh, I thought executions in the USA was the topic here, and I am not Chinese nor am I a Chinese citizen. I am no more than a guest in China, and an observer at best. I am a Canadian (which should be pretty obvious) and Canada banned the death penalty LONG AGO. China is a developing nation and there are many things for it to achieve before it reaches the level of the USA, which one would think should lead the world in matters of civilization. It is certainly making one hell of a mess out of democracy.
France used the guillotine until the death penalty was eliminated... fifty years ago...
The guillotine was quick, and never failed. Kinda messy, though...
A possibility. But rather unlikely. Firing squads often employ military or professional personnel trained in the use of firearms, and at a rather close range.
That's why I suggested the guillotine - guaranteed instant death, no botched jobs, no suffering, so when it came to executions it definitely put France ahead. Ooops. I didn't mean that to be a pun. And yeah, Canada reached that level of civilization 44 years ago.
So?
Not quite. Because a guillotine provides a clean and swift cut, there is no direct trauma to the brain itself. The medical consensus is that the brain remains functional, with consciousness for about 10 seconds, similar to the amount of time one can remain conscious in a total vacuum. On the other hand, a bullet does trauma to the brain, resulting in instant loss of consciousness and death.
Then Canada could join the EU. The death penalty is a deal-breaker for adhesion.
How about a drop-hammer?
Adhesion? If you mean adhesion with the USA, it depends on what you would define as or include in adhesion, but Canada is bound to remain independent. As for joining the EU, I can see free trade deals, but to JOIN the EU, not likely. If the UK is unable to live with the membership requirements, sure as hell Canada won't subject itself to such limitations on its independence.
All the article is saying is if someone has bad aim or the condemned move a little, death may not be instantaneous. Well, if the condemned move, that's their fault. as far as inaccuracy, just move in closer. Perhaps a large caliber or hollow point round to make sure it's more effective. Easy ways to maximize the instantaneous effect.
I doubt a second execution can be carried out before 10 seconds. Maybe 2 guillotines sharing 1 big basket?
Yep, MAY NOT be, just like the electric chair MAY NOT be instantaneously effective, or strangling rather than having one's neck broken MAY NOT be instantaneously effective. Look, Gordy, I'm 100% against the death penalty so I really don't give a damn WHAT method is used, whether it's instantaneously effective or not.
I don't think anyone claims hanging or the chair are instantaneous. A bullet to the brain usually is.
Better instant than not.
Why? I think many if not all death row prisoners deserve a slow and painful execution. One at least as terrifying as their victim death.
Hint: Read the Constitution and go straight to the 8th Amendment.
Well, we are supposed to be civilized after all.
I tend to agree. A bullet to the head solves everything.
Human nature?
Seems too easy to blame it on human nature, but just exactly what is human nature? Phycologists have been trying to suss this out for decades. The Hidden Brain is a radio show/podcast that explores topics on how we think. In one episode they delve into what is called the "Hot-Cold Empathy Gap" which factors our emotional state into how we respond to certain situations.
But we do know where it is being encouraged.
We are a very judgy society. We like to proclaim that we are a forgiving people, but it’s not true from what I have seen.
People are generally disconnected from specific crimes (i.e they aren’t affected by them personally) but they seem to draw self esteem from the showcasing of people who have done wrong things they think they would never do. Their esteem and moral status are boosted even more, I think, by enthusiastically calling for infinitely harsh punishments. “See how good I am? I think sex offenders are evil. Chop off their balls!” It’s a kind of virtue signaling.
Agreed.
Supposedly, homo sapiens thinks. Supposedly, we can do differently from our inherited impulses.
Gotta wonder, sometimes...
Listen to the podcast that I linked to. It is about decision making and state of mind while doing the same. We are not always in the same frame of mind and our brains do not function the same while in these different states of mind.
With practice, control can be gained over these innate tendencies.
Excellent.
Should be required listening for anyone who wants to participate in an online forum.
The podcast speaks to me personally. I have (had?) anger-management issues. I was forced to face them a few years ago, and have been working on them ever since.
Basically, never allow hot-state to sneak up and take over. "With practice, control can be gained over these innate tendencies."
There are controlled-environment situations where letting go into hot-state isn't a risk, but generally, hot-state is not what we need when interacting with others. Sadly, I'd guess that a large portion of NT exchanges occur with both parties in hot-state.
Thanks for the heads-up.
From the criminal's point of view:
Americans somehow imagine that death is a punishment. It can't be, because it is it's own end. For the criminal, it's over. No more punishment.
Life imprisonment... endless drudgery and boredom... is punishment.
From the victim's family's point of view:
Revenge. Is that really desirable?
From a bystander's point of view:
I want no part of killing helpless prisoners.
I want no part of killing helpless prisoners.
What about this piss ant's helpless victims?
What about them? They are (sadly) gone. Nothing can bring them back.
He danced and now he has to pay the piper.
What surprises me, Paula, is the way everyone fixates on the criminal. He's no longer a player. He has been arrested and tried.
The players who still have choices - moral choices - are... us. If killing is wrong... then why do we kill? There's no need. No one has ever escaped from a supermax prison. Life without parole protects society, and doesn't lower us the the same murderous level as the criminal.
The criminal is the one who committed the crime.
Not until after they're executed anyway.
And he has received his sentence to be carried out, including capital punishment where applicable.
Morality is subjective.
Alcatraz?
That doesn't mean they cannot harm those on the inside, including guards. Or convey harmful intent to associates on the outside. But life terms only waste space and resources.
Execution as a legal punishment is not murder. The criminal is the one who initially murdered. There's a difference.
Gordy... we hit an impasse, so I tried to disengage.
My Reply was addressed to Paula.
I think that by now I know your opinions, and your capacity to reconsider them. Please drop it.
In a public discussion, anyone can respond.
I don't think you do. I'm willing to reevaluate my position if you can provide a rational argument rather than an emotional one.
Impasse
While I don't agree with Bob on a lot of things, I don't favor the death penalty either. I think it's a waste of resources. My rational is that the average person sentenced to death will spend almost 23 years after sentencing awaiting the sentence to be carried out. During that time there are numerous appeals, retries, etc that all cost additional money for the state as the convicted person is unable to work now to pay for legal expenses. So on top of the money the public spends to imprison the person we also get to pay for all those legal attempts to overturn his conviction. A lot of people's time and our money is spent in this. To me it just seems to be more cost effective to go with life imprisonment without any parole and save the money that would be spend on everything else.
As is housing, feeding, clothing, and providing care for someone for the rest of their life.
The lengthy appeals process is what makes capital punishment inefficient.
The same can be said for any other type of conviction too.
Or simply carry out the sentence like any other sentence.
For some. For other's it's a paradise. Do you remember Richard Speck? He murdered, I think, eight student nurses and received life in Prison. At some point before he died of natural causes video was leaked of him living the high life in prison, doing drugs, having sex all quite openly. He was the belle of the ball. How do you think the families of those murdered nurses felt seeing that monster live a life of self indulgence decades after he slaughtered their loved ones?
And, of course, there are those who run their criminal enterprise while in prison, ordering the killing of rivals both inside and outside of prison. People adapt and live their lives inside like they do outside. They make friends, laugh and have their own society. Some thrive. Some don't.
Revenge. Is that really desirable?
For some it certainly is. It also removes the chance that another innocent person will be killed by the murderer. How many people have been killed in prison and without by those who were sentenced to life in prison, do you think?
I want no part of killing helpless prisoners.
Good think no one forces you to kill prisoners then isn't it?
This bottom feeder is anything but helpless. He wasnt helpless when ie killed people..
he wasn't helpless running from the police. He wasn't helpless during his trial.
you want no part of this execution? Then YOU foot the bill for his incarceration. You feed him, you clothe him, you cover his medical expenses.
Time to step the fuck up and remove this burden from society.
Of course s/he is.
well, then, that's just too fucking bad, at least made his own choices when he committed the crime, while his victim had no such choice.
Good. Then maybe he/she will have the same feeling of helplessness their victim had right before they killed them.
Oh really? How is he helpless exactly?
Strapped down on a gurney...
I suggest you show the same empathy to the victims and their families that you do for convicted murderers.
How so?
He brought that on by himself.
I wouldn't want to be rude, Tex, but your recommendations in questions of morality are probably not going to sway me very far...
So?
However he got there, he's helpless at the moment he's killed.
I don't care if you are swayed or not.
Just stating my opinion.
I think it far more humane to simply execute someone deserving of it instead of keeping them alive in a cell for decades--at taxpayer expense, to boot!
As were his victims. At least he had a choice along the way--unlike the vicitms!
Irrelevant. If he's not rendered "helpless," then he's a known and dangerous threat.
You persist in looking only at the criminal. He is not the one who is doing the killing, at the moment.
You and I are the killers.
Oh please! The criminal brought it on himself with his actions. He already did the killing. He deserves what he gets.
What did I (or you) do to become killers?
Did you take a job as an executioner? I didnt.
You support the death penalty. So you carry the moral consequences.
I have no moral issues about the death penalty. It's a punishment for the most heinous of crimes. Those that earn the death penalty have brough it on themselves through their own actions. If anyone is carrying moral consequences, it is the criminal in question.
[Deleted]
I haven't killed anyone. So your accusation is without merit, in addition to being a borderline personal attack.
Try again.
OK... the prisoner is running around the cell.
Well not now. You seem to ignore the fact (no surprise there) that it was his own actions that put him in that cell (now grave).
I ignore nothing.
My argument doesn't involve the criminal. My argument is about us: you, me, all of us. I think killing is wrong. There are exceptions, but executing a guy strapped to a gurney is, to my mind, morally about the same as murder.
That is were you and I differ.. Given what this "man" had done, I, myself, would rather have seen a shotgun to the back of his head. Call it "pest extermination".
Do you see no cost to the soul of the executioner?
From another bystander's point of view:
if one kills other people = we might kill them back.
Especially before the one that kills tries to kill again.
Vengeance !
Justice!
I think that one of the things that bothers me is that "Justice" isn't always perfect. I guess you don't believe that it is better to let 10 murderers go free than to execute one innocent person. AND YOU KNOW DAMN WELL THAT HAS HAPPENED, DON'T YOU.
No one said it was.
That means 10 murderers are free to kill who knows how many more. Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one?
No need to raise your voice.
Life imprisonment... endless drudgery and boredom... is punishment.
Life in solitary is even better punishment
Revenge. Is that really desirable?
What's undesirable about it? What should the family feel?
I want no part of killing helpless prisoners.
The prisoner had no qualms about killing innocent victims.
That's the point, Greg. I like to believe that I am better than that murderer. If I, too, kill... I'm morally the same.
no one asked you to do anything.
Loads of virtue signaling going on there, Bob. And none of it is believable
Not at all. I'm not claiming anything for myself.
I'm just surprised that so few people think about the moral responsibility of killing.
The killer didn't think of any "moral responsibility." What about the "moral responsibility" to protect the public from people like that or to see justice passed? What about the "moral responsibility" to the victim/s and the families?
LOL. I'll say it's a llittle out there, but then isn't killing any living thing contrary to Buddhist beliefs? By the way, do you mow your lawn, Kathleen. OUCH!!! How do you deal with mosquitoes? Catch them in a net and put them outside? Some concepts really are a stretch, aren't they.
Well, it took 3 sentences to make this about race. The woke are slowing down.
of course.
one stat missing is how many whites killed blacks vs. how many blacks killed whites.
Gee, I wonder why they left that out?
Why don't you post it?
If I could find it, I would.
Now, why do YOU think the author left out that bit of pertinent information?
Because it doesn't feed into charges of racism?
I don't know, and I don't guess.
So you are incapable of thinking about it and forming some sort of your own opinion?
The author made a point of emphasizing how many blacks and whites were executed, and what race the the victims were, but left out an important piece of information to feed into the usual racism angle.
No.
Okay....sure!
A sad residue of the Trump reign. There was now a defacto halt to executing someone for a crime committed as a teenager. This halt lasted for over 60 years. Now is not the time to change that because Trump wants it. To hell with him.
Keep the guy in prison where he has been for over 20 years.
Why not?
If you are adult enough at 18 years of age to kill someone, then you should be adult enough to face the punishment as proscribed by law.
Are we supposed to feel sorry for him? He was an adult when he committed the crime, so he receives an adult punishment.
Trump just wants to portray himself as a strongman gangster, so he’s killing the people he can legally get away with killing. Although he was still correct in that if he wanted to he could shoot an innocent person on Fifth Avenue and his base of sycophantic morons wouldn’t be phased at all.
Killers are tough-guys. Rambos.
So of course, wannabe Rambos are stoked by killing. Even if they must kill by proxy.
It's part of any authoritarian mind-set.
Trump isn't killing anyone, FFS.
The Justice system is doing what they are supposed to do--carrying out sentences imposed on guilty parties.
i realize your dislike or hatred of Trump is clouding your thinking, but, get real, dude.
THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND DEAD
Sigh.
When will people stop lying about Trump?
So you are now claiming that Trump has had 300,000 people executed?
Is THAT your new bogus claim?
Whoo boy!
Seriously, Tex?
Don't you care at all about your credibility?
Why would you think I am kidding?
I do to a degree, but then again, I am not the one accusing the President of killing 300,000 prisoners. But I don't give a shit whether you believe me or not.
Don't YOU care about YOUR credibility with posts like that?
Impasse
I don't believe that applies anymore.
But it's cool, I will leave you alone since you can't defend your post anyways.
Impasse
It would be a lot less if we had a good leader!
This is true. Also if people followed precautions and guidelines. Maybe listen to doctors and scientist rather than politicians.
For those who insist that it is the STATE doing the killing....you're forgetting that these are federal prisoners that are being executed. So you are doing the killing with your tax dollars. Those drugs aren't free and they don't come cheap.
Now having said that...I'm on the fence about the death penalty. I just don't know what should be done
It doesn't seem complicated to me. I would not push the plunger. I would not kill.
Would you?
I really don't know, Bob. If I actually saw a murderer commit a rape, murder, and mutilation of someone, I probably would.
But I also don't want to put innocent people to death
Absolutely!
I oppose the death penalty. It seems more revenge than punishment. It's one thing to kill in self-defense, to eliminate a threat in the moment. But to kill a person who is strapped down, who is incapable of threatening anyone - that seems inhumane to me. Yes, I know that most people who receive the death penalty have done things that are inhumane in the extreme. We should strive to be better than them, IMO.
Yes.
The same things that stop the vast majority of prisoners from killing someone else in prison.
Prisoners can get creative when it comes to dealing with other inmates.
Of course they can. The fact remains that the vast majority of prisoners do not kill in prison. Dennis would have us believe that such murders are not preventable, a matter of course. They're not.
In regards to behind bars crime mentioned above...........
I don’t particularly like the death penalty for various reasons. However, it is the law and it’s just kind of lame to complain about the government enforcing the law absent some other factor. Some of the objections in the article (like there’s a pandemic on) are just dumb, in my opinion.
Change the law if you don’t like the death penalty, but don’t pretend it’s unjust to enforce the law on executions where the subject’s guilt or due process aren’t even in doubt.
I agree with you Tacos. Change the law.
I used to believe in the death penalty, and then through the groups like the "Innocence Project", I realized how easy it is to be convicted for something you didn't do. I can't live with that.
The majority of us have some level of empathy that guides our thoughts and actions through life. This is why it is difficult to impose the death penalty and even more difficult to carry it out.
As a highly empathic person, my first thought has been to try to "understand" others and "help" others. After spending over 6 decades of life participating in the bleeding heart movement, my empathy has shifted solely to protect the victims because I have learned anyone, who can abuse and/or kill others (other than self-defense), is handicapped by the inability to have any empathy for others.
IMO, the death penalty is only humane thing to do for the killer and for society.
How does killing the killer protect the victims who are already dead?
The loved ones of the victim(s), who are still living, are also victims.
For many, if not most of us, ending the murderers life is justice.
You might find it beneficial to learn our species' history in dealing with murderers. Before state executions, we used vigilantism to avenge our loved one death(s).
Some children are born without proper neural paths to care one iota about others, but still manage to live out their lives without murdering other people.
Some children are abused/raped that cause developmental disabilities that cause them to be predators.
The reasons really don't matter once the damage has been done.
In the near future, we may develop technologies that identify neural disorders that help us use prevention.
Until that day, I prefer the death penalty to lifelong sentences because I believe it is more humane.
I understand.
What seems to me to be missing is the executioner - that is to say, you and I.
Personally, I do not want to kill. There are situations where I would, but injecting a deadly cocktail into a person strapped down on a gurney is not one of them.
We feel sympathy for the family. Certainly. That is not (IMHO) justification for killing. We have a duty to accompany their grief - which is rarely officially fulfilled - and to cover any material losses. But vengeance is not on the menu.
In a way, it is. Even some methods of execution have become more humane. A lethal injection is relatively quick and painless. We put down sick and dying animals and call that humane. But putting down a murderer by similar methods is considered not humane by some?
Frankly I think we should execute murders and the like in the slowest most painful way possible. I have no sympathy or compassion for them.
Careful, someone might accuse you of being a "killer," or equate your moral character with that of one.
Too bad the murderer did not feel that way, isn't it?
You and I pay for bombs that kill women, children, and non combatants indiscriminately. That bothers me far more than executing some predator that had his day in court.
.
I wouldn't torture a rabid animal - even a human one.
I do have sympathy and compassion for their illness, but zero sympathy and compassion for their actions.
For some inmates it is. For others, it isn't. It is not so much the punishment but us as a society. The point is to meter out justice that is fair to all.
Do you want to kill?
Two wrongs make a right?
No. Even my chickens die of old age.
Being raised on a farm has almost made me a lifelong vegetarian.
However, if my livestock was murdering people, I am absolutely one hundred percent positive that the majority of people would advocate for killing the livestock instead of putting them in cages for the rest of their lives.
I don't consider the death penalty a wrong.
There is nothing about our existence that is "fair to all" or even the majority.
Our species is definitely a work in progress and has made many strides in some areas, but are content to completely turn a blind eye in others.
The people who advocate for murderers should be forced to work and live with them personally instead of represent them from the comfort of their couch.
I was hoping for a serious conversation. Oh, well... maybe some other day...
Bye.
I realize that there is nothing that is fair to all. But knowing that the system doesn't work and doing nothing about it, is amoral.
It took me years to get to this POV. As I said earlier, I used to be for the death penalty, until I saw how many innocent people have been incarcerated for crimes they did not do. Some were even on death row. I truly believe that if you kill one innocent person, then the system is amoral.
How about when there is no doubt about the murderer?
Neither do I. Mathematically speaking, 2 wrongs do make a right. Like a negative x negative = +
The only people who advocate for murderers are lawyers. But that is their job too.
But that's not murder mo. That's "collateral damage." >sarc<
But apparently we're expected to "feel" for the murderer?
Those of us who have "feelings" are at a disadvantage when dealing with those who do not.
I will go on record that I believe understanding human psychology should be taught starting in 7th grade and ending in 12th.
"Feelings" can often make one irrational or influence their judgement.
Our "feelings" are a chemical process. From what I understand, we don't really have much choice in our brain wiring and limited success on correcting the brain when it malfunctions.
I find the "freewill" debate interesting, but very troubling.
Doesn't lack of "feelings" make one cold and calculating?
Yes, they are. A neurological and endocrinological one.
True. Medications or other therapies can treat brain "malfunctions," to an extent. We can also "learn" different responses or behaviors to mitigate the emotional effects too.
This is largely the function of the amygdala.
Empathy.
It might seem that way. But it also makes one logical and rational, without subverting critical thinking.
I agree.
I discovered "The Atheist Experience" on youtube some time ago.
In the beginning, I found it entertaining to listen to theist avoid answering questions.
Then I transitioned to feeling sad that propaganda is effective at completely shutting down critical thinking. I am thankful that I was somehow wired to escape the same programming that I had received from childhood. It was this programming that played a part in my trying to understand and save people that I should have been running from instead of living with.
I applaud the atheists who have the patience to deal with the arguments based on little except emotional thinking. It is because I had a computer and even with days of research, I could not refute the facts that there is no credible evidence of a god that I became an atheist.
I was raised to believe that I and everyone else was invented by the one god in his image.
Then I changed my research to why did people invent gods in their image.
If you review religious based discussions here on NT, especially within my Fallacy of Biblical Stories series, even a cursory glance will show theists arguments quickly devolve into empty claims and "reasoning" based on emotion, with nothing rational or of concrete substance to support it. Basically, it's an emotional comfort mechanism which they are not willing to let go, even if it means remaining willfully ignorant or subverting critical thinking.
It's amazing that in this Information Age, people still cling to superstitions and beliefs of god/s while often rejecting established or supported science. This is quite noticeable when someone claims a YEC point of view or that evolution is "pseudoscience and a worldwide conspiracy by godless scientists," despite all the easily available volumes of information and evidence to support a scientific point of view, with none to support a religious one. This is the epitome of irrational and emotional thinking overriding any rational or critical thinking.
I have often challenged theists to provide evidence for their claims of a god. Not surprisingly, they simply deflect, cite belief, or do not address the challenge while continuing to spew their spurious claims.
I would agree if there were not so many mistakes in our justice system. But there are two justice systems, one for those who can afford the best, and one for the rest. How many people were sitting on death row only to be found innocent of their crimes. Years wasted behind bars is bad enough. Take even one wrong life is an evil I can't comprehend.
So I can live with a life behind bars. Until they find a perfect system, I don't want to imagine being that person who was falsely convicted. What a nightmare that must be.
I don't know. How many?
Mocowgirl,
I get the feeling that you think I am picking on you. I am not. We traveled the same path but in opposite directions it seems, so I am talking to you since I feel you are open to the discussion. If you are not. I am fine with that, too. I do have the stats though if you are really interested.
I don't feel that, but this is a hot button issue for me because of the patriarchal society that I was raised in and the ongoing abuse of women and children because compassionate people empathize with the abusers instead of the victims. Also, I have been "counseled" by abuse victims with Stockholm Syndrome. It is no wonder that so many of my friends, co-workers, and other women in the US are addicted to tranquilizers to deal with the abusive males in their lives.
The stats of worldwide abuse is staggering. The stats of abuse in the US is even more so.
I really, truly believe that death penalty is far more humane than putting people in cages for life like zoo animals even though there are some people who are more animal than what we consider human.
Humans are a member of the primate family and some have clearly evolved more than others. Regardless, we need to adopt a policy of zero tolerance for violence against women and children if we are ever going to live in any kind of world that is "fair".
These are two different issues for me. While I agree with you 100% about the abuse of women. I don't think that any women should have to deal with abuse and any man found guilty, deserves what they get. I agree with zero tolerance.
But that makes no sense. Most of the people who are in cages are in there for non-capital crimes. They are counting on getting out. Some of them are not even guilty. Jail is the only way to punish the guilty for a wide range of crimes. But being on death row is a whole different thing. You are waiting to be executed. It would be a nightmare situation if you were not guilty.
The Innocence Project uses DNA evidence to find people in prison in general and on death row who were acquitted from their hard work. Here is a link to the people who were on death row who they found innocent:
I realize that this is a hot button article, but it was also through discussions here, that I changed how I felt. It led me to research the issue and what I found out was very disturbing to me.
A person is guilty or they are not. I am not a fan of turning loose murderers because they are smart enough, lucky enough to have enough money to buy lawyers and judges. This is a most flawed system indeed.
I just checked to see how many people are on death row - 2553 in Oct 2020.
The source is Wiki. I hope it is close, but I don't want to wade through government pages this morning. My love of spreadsheets has waned in my 60s.
You are right. I forgot to add "for life".
I don't believe in prison for anyone as much as I believe in rehab for those who can be rehabbed.
I believe I saw a news program years ago that one Scandinavian countries has a prison system that involved putting their non-violent prisoners in cottages instead of cages.
People need something constructive to do in life. Our school system needs a serious overhaul to identify and help students find occupations that they have an aptitude for and enjoy.
I was born with the ability to learn or memorize many things that society deems worthwhile. However, I was happiest working with animals rather than people. This was a career path that none of my instructors would have ever chosen for me. If data analysis had been an choice for me in Backwoods, Arkansas in the 70s, I would probably have spent the majority of my life buried in spreadsheets and putting out reports.
I have finally discovered that I am an analyst. Prison reform doesn't interest me as much as understanding and reforming a society that creates the needs for prisons in the first place.
Being a girl who just turned 60, I feel ya pain. Wait, can I call myself a girl and be 60? LOL!
Anyway as to this:
I totally agree. People who buy their way out of going to jail and are guilty (like OJ for example), means that the system is broken. But it also goes the other way around. The problem is that people run the system and people are inherently flawed. I think that is something we can both agree with.
I know the stats on the incarcerated. It is something I looked into before I changed my mind about things.
There have been studies about wrongful incarceration. Here is what was found. From wiki:
Newly available DNA evidence has allowed the exoneration and release of more than 20 death row inmates since 1992 in the United States, [5] but DNA evidence is available in only a fraction of capital cases. Others have been released on the basis of weak cases against them, sometimes involving prosecutorial misconduct; resulting in acquittal at retrial, charges dropped, or innocence-based pardons. The Death Penalty Information Center (U.S.) has published a list of 10 inmates "executed but possibly innocent". [6]
University of Michigan law professor Samuel Gross led a team of experts in the law and in statistics that estimated the likely number of unjust convictions. The study, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences determined that at least 4% of people on death row were and are likely innocent. Gross has no doubt that some innocent people have been executed. [18] [19]
I've changed my mind about several things since gaining internet access and being challenged to re-think beliefs that I have based my life on.
I was a Christian for over 5 decades and am now an atheist.
As an atheist, I opened my mind to understanding evolution, genetics, biases, cognitive dissonance, emotion thinking, critical thinking, etc. Because of this, I try to understand where I have drawn lines and why. In the case of the death penalty, I know it is tied into personal experience and the disastrous impact that violent males has had on the world that I have tried to survive in all of my life. My granddaughter was forced into martial arts at the age of 4 because of the violent society in the US. She finally put her foot down at the age of 14 because she hates violence. I know how she feels, but I hope that she doesn't die to regret that decision.
Well, then our POV is pretty similar. I chose to teach in an inner city school, partly because I wanted to be part of the solution. My students 4th and 5th grade students all took part in the "Scared Straight" project. Almost all of them who kept in touch with me said that it had impacted their lives in a big and positive way.
I also taught the sex education program for the school, when I became the school's science teacher. When I talked common sense with them about the positive outcomes from delaying sex, they got it.
I believe in being real with situations.
As for prison reform, I believe it is important, but of course, it is more important to break the cycle in the first place, so we must look to society and see what causes this and work with that, too.
I do not advocate for the death penalty when there is any doubt about guilt. I apologize for not being clear about my position.
I have seen law enforcement try to railroad innocent people in order to close a case or just because they did not like the person or because (most likely) they were just that fucking stupid.
We really do need to require at least a two year degree in psychology and effective communication for all law enforcement.
Since I have purposely limited even reading forums for several months, I need to work on effective communication again.
I have been trying to work up the enthusiasm to take some Coursera psychology courses this fall and now I am into winter. I take their free courses and am not out anything if I don't finish, but if I start something I feel an obligation to finish it.
Yes to all.
This is why I admire you and people like you.
I have spent my life holding men, women and children who were broken by abusers and an abusive system while treading water trying not to drown myself.
That is a huge journey in your personal life. I applaud your openness in reevaluating your life from the information you have gained from your research.
I have been very lucky in my life. I have never known an abusive male in my personal life. I have had unfortunate sexism in the workplace, though. Nothing that would be a crime, even back in the day, but stuff that made me feel mad or uncomfortable, but I handled it, even back then.
I have raised my girls to be aware of predatory men, but I also raised them to be compassionate people. I think you can do both.
Thank you for that very thoughtful comment and clearing up some of your POV's. I totally agree that law enforcement should be getting at least a two year degree in psychology and effective communication. I think it would avoid a lot of bad interaction with suspects, too!
And I applaud your introspection on the subject.
I know how a person can drown in that. My daughter worked a sexual abuse hotline and she had to give it up, since she too felt like she was drowning. So much of it was also abuse, and she found that so hard to deal with, so I totally understand where you are coming from.
I am sure that your work, although hard on you, netted good things. Be proud of that.
Of course.
The philosopher in me wishes that everyone could retain childlike optimism and enthusiasm for life.
Thanks mocowgirl! And yes I do have that quality about me. It's one of the reasons I started NT. I was hoping to do better than NV. Not sure if I did, but at least that was the intention.
The accused must be declared not guilty.
So... if someone has been declared guilty, there cannot be any doubt.
I have known little else because I was conditioned to accept abuse from childhood by my own family and society that labels abuse to be love.
I have spent 23 years married to a narcissist. I did not really know what a narcissist was until Dean Moriarty on this site clued me in to what I was dealing with. I have spent months reading books and watching videos that explained to me how I managed to ignore or explain away so much of the mistreatment I have endured. Thanks to Dean, I have regained some balance and sanity in my life.
Reading the comments on the videos has helped me realize that I need to forgive myself for not having a clue that anyone like this could exist.
I also know that I should leave, but that is not really an option.
My husband does not value anyone's life but his own.
I have a very close girlfriend who was married to a narcissist. He mentally abused her for over 20 years, and the worst part was that very few of our friends believed her since he was handsome and charming to outsiders, which is a common thing with narcissists. She finally got the nerve to leave him. The divorce took 5 years (despite them both being lawyers), and he was evil to her. I really don't know how she took it.
I had no idea that Dean helped you. Well done Dean! Of course, you are still dealing with it, and that is awful, but at least you now know what you are dealing with, and maybe one day you will get your freedom. No one should have to live with that. I wish you the best of luck managing your situation until you can extricate yourself from it.
Oh, yeah.
Although my husband had made some lifelong enemies in his community, I wasn't raised in his community.
His children were bewildered by their father's lack of love and interest in their lives, but of course, he had conditioned them to accept abuse as love on some level. They're all pretty screwed up and have distanced themselves from him over the years. He blames me or says he cut off contact with them because of me.
I have finally broken the cardinal rule of dealing with a narcissist by telling him that he is a narcissist and what that entails. I also told him to fuck himself and enjoy it. I told him that I am no longer playing with him for his amusement.
As a narcissist, he does not care about any of that. Boundaries mean nothing. Any attention whatsoever is better than being completely ignored. And, a narcissist is NEVER WRONG about anything EVER once they gain enough control to keep their victim playing the only game that the narcissist is capable of living.
The gaslighting was never effective, but the personal attacks were devastating at one time only because I over analyzed myself to see if I could have done better. I still hold myself to a high standard, but I will no longer tolerate being baited by anyone who I do not know enough about to respect.
I feel pity for the narcissist, but compassion is an emotion that I will no longer waste on them.
It was probably on some political topic. I don't remember that Dean and I have interacted much or ever agreed when we did. That one time in interacting with someone I probably disagreed with on a lot of things was life changing for me. He took the time to share with me his experience with a woman who had the same personality as my husband. And I was fortunate enough to order the book he recommended and begin a journey to reclaim my life.
Around 2007, someone put enough what I suspect was Ketamine in the last of a beer that I had nursed for two hours trying to look sociable in a bar. I took one sip and felt the lights going out like when I had had surgery. Someone picked me up and carried me outside and put a finger down my throat and managed to bring back up the tablespoon of beer that I had consumed. Today, I have good reason to suspect this was done by my husband's oldest daughter and maybe even in cahoots with my husband.
There would not have been enough proof to send either of them to death row, but it would have been murder all the same.
My husband is a Vietnam Vet. I am stating clearly he is NOT the typical Vietnam Vet in his thinking.
My husband stated shortly after we were married that killing is not difficult at all. Quitting killing is the difficult part.
Few people ever know what they live with or live around until it is too late.
I know. Few people would believe me.
I had an Uncle that was the same. To the outside world he was good looking and charming. The nicest guy around. Behind closed doors he could be a monster. Nasty and abusive. No one wanted to believe how bad he was.
This nice man would put sugar in our gas tanks and nails under our tires during the night. This was after their separation when he expanded his list of people that got to experience his rage.
All I can say to that last post is that you have my sympathy and I totally get where you are coming from. I hope that being able to talk about it helps in some way. If you would like to talk about it with me privately, I am here to listen.
I'm glad I could help and the book was helpful Mocowgirl it was very helpful to myself.
What an awful experience. I believe you. Your husband has much more wrong with him than just narcissism. He sounds like a sociopath.
Sorry that Dean that you had to go through that yourself, but at least you got yourself out of it and helped someone along the way. Well done!
These people are really broken, but in a way that is very insidious. They have no mechanism for feeling anything but their own needs. Everyone else is just there for their amusment.
Not really, It brings the pain to the surface that I prefer not to deal with because I can't, yet. It is my problem. I need to fix it as best I can.
My husband takes triumphant joy in my tears so I try not to shed any where he could see them.
Two years ago this month, a nice woman, who worked at Lowes, held me her arms for 20 minutes while I cried because I had reached my breaking point. It is the only time I have felt any kind of safety or compassion in years. People refuse to see what is front of them or explain it away to make themselves feel better. I can heartily understand wanting to distance themselves from badass situations that can turn violent if one intervenes so I don't judge them. I just hide and pull myself as best I can.
My daughter would buy my husband's part of our property, but I would not be safe to live here if we divorced. If we divorce, I pretty much leave with nothing. Yet, I have it far better than many people and I know it.
Maybe now, people will start having more compassion for the victims or maybe not.
However, no one should be forced to feel that they have to fix all of life's problem. There is no joy in that and life should be enjoyable.
Society is making strides and I am sure will make more when we see behind the facade of the abuser who does not share any of our good emotions toward others - never has and never will.
Thank you.
The book brought out uncomfortable truths that I was part of the problem and needed to work out my own issues. Being orphaned as an infant and adopted out of the family and reunited with the family (that I had nothing in common with) and then saying screw it, I don't need a family and then being in denial of being emotionally needy and being a poor judge of character. I have had to read the book in small doses because it was written in the same type clinical, brutal way that I use on others when I don't want to deal with emotions.
For anyone who is interested, the book is Malignant Self Love by Sam Vaknin. He also does youtube videos. If you are interested in being seduced by the voice of a narcissist, while he details the pleasure and methods of abusing his appliances, listen to videos by "Knowing the Narcissist".
Discussing Narcissists has become big business for even narcissists who not only make videos and sell books, they are now even doing consultations on how to deal with their ilk.
What a strange world we live in....but on most days it is still a wonderful world because most of us have the innate ability to make the best of any situation life throws our way. As do I most days.
I have come to suspect that is the case. He was born in 1947. The oldest grandchild. And a boy in a society that values the male child over all else.
However, my oldest daughter is a narcissist. I have tried to understand how I contributed to her disorder or if I did.
My husband has strong abandonment issues that stem from childhood. However, he doesn't seem to be upset that he was left as much as he couldn't be in all places at once and the center of attention.
My older daughter could scream for lengthy periods if I left her with anyone for any reason. The younger daughter was content as long as she was fed and comfortably dressed wherever she was.
The personalities were day and night different from the time they were born.
The older daughter and I haven't spoken in 10 years and will never again because I now understand what I am dealing with. There is nothing I can do to help her. I do my best to protect her niece (my granddaughter) from her games, but I think my granddaughter outgrew her many years ago.
To date, there are no good answers and many theories that I have found.
Psychopaths are born. Sociopaths are created by usually parents/society/loved ones. Narcissists are all over the place as far as understanding what created them.
None of us are born perfect but some traits are less desirable than others.
Some things can be changed, some can't.
We have to know what we are dealing with in order to do the right thing.
I only share to be the voice for those who do not or can not speak because this is all I can do to help them to be heard. Most of the victims are women and children, but the focus is on helping the abuser after his abuse comes to light. This is not where the focus needs to be. The focus needs to be on healing the victims who are largely ignored and unsupported because the abuser is very skilled on portraying themselves as the victim.,
I don't hide anything from my husband on what I do, think, or say. He has become somewhat less abusive once he learned that I have told the world on the internet about our life. I told him that if he had to hide what he did and said then he knew it was wrong and he shouldn't do it and I wouldn't have to tell anyone.
I am not saying he isn't capable of killing me, he is. If he does it won't be because I have done anything. A good portion of his thought process has nothing to do with reality. Narcissists remake memories into making themselves the victims. A narcissist cannot admit they are ever responsible for negative outcomes.
I am living the exact same life that millions, if not tens of millions, of women are living in the US as I type this. None of us are going to be safe until society quits being owned, controlled and manipulated by the abusers.
The top 10 positions of psychopaths are all about controlling others. We really need to be far more selective of character traits of the people we put in positions of power so women and children are not relying on psychopaths to protect us from psychopaths.