Do you believe in "both sides - ism" ?
I saw an article this morning that there are only two Republican office holders on a national level that have the guts to stand up to Trump, - Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger.
That sounds about right.
So, we have a party that is for all practical purposes in thrall to a megalomaniac who tried to steal the last election and lies about it virtually on a daily basis.
This is a bleak future for the country, at best. If Trump was to be returned to office we would be led by someone who is demonstrably either mentally ill , or thoroughly evil. Those are in reality the only two possibilities.
And yet, we continue to see people approach national politics as if "both sides" suffer from roughly equal levels of problematic behavior.
There appear to be actual , relatively intelligent people who say that they would rather have Trump because Joe Biden occasionally repeats words and stumbles verbally.
Joe Biden was seen riding a bicycle last week. How many people here would bet ten bucks that Donald Trump could ride a bicycle for a 100 yards, let alone a mile or two?
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We often see people approach politics from the "pox on both your houses" point of view. "I dont like any of them", they say.
The Republicans , under Trump's leadership are right now trying to set up state governments in a way that will allow them to challenge the results of any election that they lose. Trump is endorsing candidates for state offices that control election boards that will go along with his schemes in the future. We can see in the recent results of the California recall vote and the Arizona election audit that Republicans are more than willing to not only claim that every election they lose is stolen, but continue on with it even after facts prove them completely wrong. Tell me, is there a "both sides" aspect to this situation ?
We see on Newstalkers how the right wing seeders lie and/or try to confuse the issues related to what I have brought up in this article. What is the "both sides" element in this lying that appeals to moderates and independents that would lead them to say "both sides" are at fault?
America is heading toward dark times. I really have a problem figuring how "both sides" ism or even worse, apathy, is going to steer us through this incredibly turbulent path .
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The internet and media are designed to play the "both sides" are at fault game. It is turning out to be disastrous for the country. Let's say Trump doesnt run in 2024. One of his chosen few will be the nominee then. The Republican Party is no longer the party of the Bush's , Reagan's , Jack Kemp's or Bob Dole's. The base of the Republican Party is white grievance. Who in their right mind thinks that will turn out well for the country?
Or else we could be lead by a Democrat moronic, mentally deficient, lying, human fuck up machine that has done more to destroy the country in eight months than Trump did in 4 years.
The Democrat Party is no longer for US citizens. Open borders, amnesty, and special rights, privileges, and voting for all immigrants will be the law of the land.
A two tier justice system that is a revolving door for far left rioters; while seeking to bankrupt right wing rioters from Jan 6th who are guilty of the exact same crimes.
They seek a system that rewards based on race; not who is the most qualified. They are for equal outcomes not equal opportunities.
They seek to use the courts, and government agencies to illegally punish their opponents. They would love nothing more to turn the US into China. One party rule with reeducation camps for those that dare to disagree with them.
They are the party of the perpetually aggrieved.
Who in their right mind thinks that have Democrats in charge will turn out well for this country?
That sounds an awful lot like white grievance to me.
Sounds an awful lot like political grievance to me. Perhaps you could point out what makes you think it's White grievance?
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So wanting fairness and equal opportunity are signs of white grievance?
Excellent example of false equivalence. Please show me when the US Capitol was attacked by a mob of far left people intent on altering the results of an election?
That's all he has - + projection, deflection, and denial.
Repeat after me: I will not be a divider. I will not be a divider. I will not be a divider. I will not . . . .
I'll ask you the same question I've asked John for years about Trump and that he can never answer.
Before we get started, you have the same rules as John, which means fuck off with rants about immigration or open borders or "our standing in the world" or people he's appointed that don't affect you anyway or anything else that doesn't have a material impact on your daily life.
So here goes:
What has Joe Biden actually done that has made your daily life measurably worse than it was under Trump?
No they wouldn't, because then nobody would have guns, there wouldn't be all those mass murders and gun violence on a daily basis, the incarceration rate would be so much less than in the USA, absolute poverty would not exist, plans for improving infrastructure and a moderately prosperous society would be made and realized without political rivalry blocking them for decades, the whole population would be happy to be vaccinated and minimal virus outbreaks quickly dealt with and controlled. God forbid!!!
Trump cannot win another national election. Biden won only because enough people were fed up with Trump and his never ending tweets. Right now he's just keeping the base fired up. This will become clear when the Republicans take back the House, and most likely the Senate in the midterms. Once this happens, challengers to Trump will appear. The most likely of those will be Abbott, DeSantis, and perhaps Haley. The party leaders and those Republicans in flyover country won't allow Trump to have another bite at the apple.
But yes, there are two sides at play here. The good and moral side, and then the bullshit being perpetrated upon us by the Democrats.
AND because people were fed up with Trump's racist, nepotistic, incompetent, administration.
How about some true examples of what you spew?
BTW...your feelings don't count.
Why don't feelings count? Everybody has feelings. You can especially find feeling overwrought with Artful Liar. Donald Trump always carries a barely visible big sob cloth draped over his shoulder to wipe away his spewing tears! It is how he expresses shame. Of course, you do not present here to discuss Donald Trump's fartish attitude - @Trump-whipped.
You want another one?
So you only have pictures of people you don't like, but no truth in your post.
I asked you not to use your feelings...but you failed.
What in God's name are you babbling about?
Why bother invoking God as a pretense? God ain't in anything some conservatives are doing! Oh and feeling are all you have in your pocket and in your 'shopping cart' -because critical thinking or truth is lacking. You want to play stupid word games—in the words of George W. Bush, . . . well, RINO, you should remember what he said about times like this so I won't patronize you to share it!
I think the best example of lack of critical thinking resides in most of your posts. I really advise you to take a good, hard look at what you post.
It may be an eye opener.
Keep some of what goes for 'advice' for yourself. I can get better informed from a so-called 'fortune cookie' than from a Trump-RINO.
Bye.
Yeah, that was the only problem we had with whatshisname - his tweets FFS
The 'right' are the 'good and moral' side?
I'd agree with that.
But to be fair, Trump only won because people couldn't stand Hillary and her elitist bullshit.
I'm agreeing with this, too. I think this is the rational stance.
Trump will destroy Abbott, De Santis and Haley.
Meh. We'll see.
I've told you already how I think that is more likely to unfold, but it is far too early to tell.
If Trump wins again, he wins. It's not the outcome I would want, but it's the end of the world, either.
Prediction, if Trump runs in 2024 Twitter will "graciously" unlock his Twitter account. I mean you know, in the interest of free speech and all ........ /S
If you don't look at both sides then you have only been conditioned to drool when the bell rings.
Is Joe Biden really any different than Donald Trump? Biden tells his supporters what they want to hear and then does whatever he wants to do. Biden is actually more dangerous than Trump because Biden is driven by expediency. Biden doesn't govern on any sort of principles other than benefiting the Democratic Party. Biden certainly isn't whipping his party in line the way Trump did. The Democratic Party certainly doesn't fear Biden the way the Republican Party fears Trump. That's because the Democratic base won't fight for Biden; Biden doesn't represent any principles worth fighting for.
Biden's calls for national unity really is nationalism. Biden's rhetoric about democracy really is pluralist populism. And Biden's populist nationalism is based upon appeals to idealized cultural norms based on 'who we are as a people'. Biden may not be an Adolf Hitler but Biden is utilizing the politics of the Nazi Party and governs for his party to obtain power just as the Nazi Party obtained power over Germany. The Nazi Party wasn't only about Adolf Hitler. The Nazi Party did not respect borders just as the Democratic Party does not respect borders. The Nazi Party used German laws, courts, and government to obtain unchallenged authority over Germany the same way Democrats are using the Constitution, laws, courts, and government to obtain authority over the United States.
Joe Biden is a Party First politician and uses government authority to promote and advance the authoritarian control of his party over the United States. But somehow that's not Fascism?
The bell has rung, are you drooling yet?
After 5 "nazis" and 2 "Hitlers" along with several other loaded terms it sounds like Skinner is taking Pavlov's woof hunting for squirrels.
I've only rung the bell and pointed at a squirrel. Now it's up to Pavlov's dogs to decide what to do. Will they follow their conditioning or think for themselves?
The only things whatshisname did were to benefit himself and his already wealthy 'donors'.
Nazi party, fascists blah de fucking blah - that's what whatshisname wanted to be and the majority of his supporters are - white supremacists.
Yes Joe Biden is different from Donald Trump. If he was not, then you would have nothing to bitch and groan about in his presidency. You bitch and groan. . . so, there: You evidently see differences in the two men.
Second assertion: You just telling a damn. . . untruth.
Is that what Trump is doing "whipping" freedom lovers into order? Hell no. Donald Trump is 'banging' the republican and conservative parties, plural, hard and both are going: YES! YES! MORE! MORE!!!
That is a damn. . . untruth. Until you prove it.
This is entirely wishful thinking. If and when he begins his "actual" campaign (in contrast to the preliminary campaign he is running now) Trump will destroy Abbott , De Santis and Haley and anyone else who runs. The reason for that is quite obvious. Trump wont fight fair. He will lie about his opponents, make up things about their past, and accuse them of being closet Democrats. And his base will believe him, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. If he runs, he will be the nominee.
His supposed base is not that big or powerful. It's just the extremists and crazy outliers who are getting all the attention right now.
He won't be the nominee.
Do you ever look at polls about this? Trump is overwhelmingly the choice of Republicans to be their 2024 candidate.
I don't rely on biased polls this far out.
No, you rely on your imagination.
Wait and be educated. You've consistently been proven wrong
I firmly believe in it.
If one doesn’t realize there are liars, crooks and self serving idiots on both sides they just don’t want to see it.
So Biden is JUST AS BAD as Trump? Thank you for making comments that are an example of what is wrong with America today.
Actually, Biden is much, much worse. He's bad for our country and tearing it apart.
It's thinking like yours that is what is wrong with America today. Thankfully, it is not all that wide spread.
So you think Biden has done something specifically worse than Trump trying to steal the last election ? Please, tell us what that is ?
That is not what she wrote. She stated a common feature in both major political parties ("liars, crooks and self serving idiots on both sides") and that is demonstrably true. She characterized the typical modern politician. Just because someone uses the phrase "both sides" does not mean they are saying both parties are equivalent in all dimensions. You should stop reading that into the words of others.
Specifically, she did not compare Trump with Biden. (yet)
I will answer your question though: no PotUS can compare with Trump who set the bar of disintegrity and shit character very high with his post-election con-job. Trump is a distinguished stain on the presidency — an embarrassment to this nation who inexplicably voted him into office as our president in spite of his fundamental character flaws. And then, worse, after his historical and disgusting post-election-loss con-job we still support this narcissistic liar as the leader of the R party.
A somewhat common problem here. People twisting statements to fit their own narrative.
No John, I don’t. I leave that to the pros such as yourself!
Yup. I replied because I have been accused of 'both side ism' multiple times. It seems that finding similarity among parties means you think both parties are identical in all respects. A crap tactic.
It is the nature of online forums. It is also the nature of partisan politics. Note that almost all of our political 'news' is spin.
There is no Republican Party without Trump in 2021. If he left to start a third party half of Republicans would go with him.
But lets talk about Democrats being just as bad as Republicans.
We essentially have "proof" that Trump tried to steal the 2020 election. How many REPUBLICANS have condemned him for that? To be honest with you I cant find any. If you know of any current Republican officeholders who have condemned Trump for trying to steal the election please give me their names.
How many Republicans condemned Trump for inciting the Jan 6 riot? At first there were some, but their enthusiasm for the truth died out quickly, and now they are all cowered.
This is what it means to be a Republican today. Pretend that the head of your party is not rotten as hell.
We have people here who seriously try to compare Bidens verbal miscues with 6 years of Trump lying his ass off every single day. It is insanity.
They disagree with Bidens policies so they say he is as bad as Trump. I didnt like many of Trumps policies, but his policies are not why he was the worst president in American history, his behavior and his mountainous personal corruption is.
Republicans are very prone to believing lies and conspiracy theories, and our media is too weak and too corporate to call them out on it.
You live in a fairy tale land where "non partisanship" is the only "rational" way to proceed. That is nice I suppose, but it is completely unrealistic.
The Republicans are currently trying to set up state governments so they will be able to control the outcomes of future elections in a extra-legal way by using legislative committees and state officials to determine if there was "fraud". This is the Trump plan.
Where is the hook for "both sides ism" in that behavior?
Is "non partisanship" going to solve the problem of Republicans trying to fix future elections?
You couldnt debate your way out of a wet paper bag.
What do you call what the Democrats are trying to do at the federal level to control state elections?
And that is tragic.
Nobody made that specific claim. But you should be able to tell from my comments that my position is that the R party has lost its way. Thus, right now, the Rs are worse in terms of integrity than the Ds because of their support for Trump.
I have lint on my shoulder that puts up a better fight than you do.
I explained my position on partisanship to you a few weeks ago. Have you forgotten what I wrote? I wrote that there are (in my view) strategic partisans and comformist partisans. The strategic partisans are those who believe their party is, as a whole, better for the nation than the other party. Thus, even though they do not agree with every position held by their party, they work to have their party in the leadership positions. Conformist partisans are those who largely adopt the positions of their party. This is the irrational part: holding as true and running with that which is merely stated by an authority.
I should not have to explain this to you every time.
Starting off with the personal 'fairy tale' crap is a great way to encourage people to rip into you.
How is that any different from what you wrote to Tig:
Because what you are basically saying is that there is not a decent Dem around. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Unfortunately Newstalkers requires us to be polite.
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Orange man bad?
Damn straight.
I said decent, not decency, which is two different things. What I was asking you is you found any democrat good enough for you.
Indeed it is.
What are the Democrats doing at the federal level?
Looks to most of us he is handing you your ass.
Of course you would think that, you are in the same boat he is.
What bill is that?
Believe me...He did
Jane Doe, what has Biden done or said that is as bad as Trump trying to steal the 2020 election ? Please be specific.
Take off your blinders John. I didn’t compare Biden to Trump and don’t plan on debating anything of the sort with you.
If you can’t see that both sides of the political spectrum are basically the same that’s on you. I’m talking about the parties and stand by what I said 100%!
That reads as though you do not recognize that Trump is distinguished among presidents; no PotUS has ever used the powers and influence of his office to engage in a con-job like what we saw after Trump lost the election. And because so many R sycophants continue to support that lying sack of shit, he continues to have influence and continues to use it to keep alive this ridiculous fiction that he really won in 2020.
To not see the stark difference in publicly displayed abysmal character between Trump and every other PotUS is a glaring failure of objective analysis.
Here is what you wrote:
The qualification "to a select few" means you think some Ds are so biased that they downplay every D transgression.
My reply points out that Trump's transgressions are so visibly large that no PotUS (D or otherwise) holds a candle to his publicly displayed abysmal character.
You were bashing the extreme D partisans. My reply illustrated that it is not D partisanship that yields a distinguished Trump, it is what Trump actually did that distinguishes him as the worst PotUS (in our history) in terms of publicly displayed character and unpresidential behavior.
I was not reinterpreting your words ... I stated how your words read (to me):
And what you actually meant is not really something I care to debate. I accept whatever meaning you wish to declare for your words.
Instead I have chosen to make a point about Trump in consideration of this 'both sides' topic.
My point is that one can easily show that the R party has the distinction of supporting the absolute worst PotUS in our history in terms of publicly displayed abysmal character and unpresidential behavior.
That is one key difference between the parties. And I am so disgusted with the R party nowadays that I do not mind repeating this at every opportunity.
Anyone who thinks that both parties are the same today is out of their mind.
I think you could add plenty to this list John. The point is that the D and R parties share many similarities. They are equivalent in many ways. They are NOT equivalent in ALL ways.
Historically you are right. We are not in Kansas anymore.
I tend to think that anyone who believes their parties shit doesn’t stink are out of their minds.
On a side note, I am a little crazy just not in political terms!
It is sad that politics and policies do intertwine and 'makes for strangebedfellows.' This is true. It seems another saying, "Don't talk about sex, religion, and politics" because of the passions raised holds too!
This is all the more reason, why we do not NEED politicians (and a public) who exacerbate issues, dilemmas, problems, and circumstance in every day life. The "needle" does skip from one side of the spectrum (democrat/republican/independent (as in Angus King)) touching in some common reference points to all involved!
I have seen it happen in this new administration.
Why? Because even a 'dastardly' president can have a period of clarity in policy-making. Before going down into the dark 'hole' of politics and deception again.
But, you have to pick your liars, crooks, and self-serving idiots in the moment and not by the lump! Or else your perspective will be skewed.
There are crooks and liars in both parties, but my partisanship sees more of it on the conservative side. Believe me, there are liberals who are con artists, too.
Nowadays I agree with you. The R party has never been so low in my lifetime. I continue to be amazed that so many continue to prop up Trump as their leader. It is pathetic and damaging to both the R party and our nation.
Interesting question. I never thought the trumpists were true conservatives
I do not know what they are other than low-grade conformists.
Labels like Trumpist are at best problematic and at worst completely off base. It's not helpful to the conversation in the least
Admittedly, i'm not really 100% sure what you intend "Trumpist" to mean but one assumes it is intended to be a derogatory term for people who voted for Trump. Lack of capitalization noted .....
Trump followed through on a the conservative platform much more than most Presidents of recent memory. Do i believe that Trump is really conservative? No i do not. Do i know he followed through on his promised conservative platform? Yes i do because for the most part he did.
I liken this to what i tell all my employees. You don't have to like everyone you work with. You just have to work with them and show them the same respect you expect to get from them. If i had to like all politicians to vote for them, i'd be voting for a lot fewer politicians.
Opinions do vary.
Like most people i know, Trump doesn't do our thinking for us. We do it for ourselves. What i do know is that there hasn't been a thorough, truly independent investigation into that election so i don't blame people for questioning the outcome nor do i look down my nose at them or feel the need to label them with sophomoric, derogatory terms. I leave that to the usual cast of characters who seem to derive some kind of perverse pleasure from spreading that bad karma whenever possible.
Emphasis intentional .....
WTF? Do you doubt that Biden is the legitimate PotUS?
Unbelievable. No evidence that would lead to a change in the results, countless lawsuits and recounts and you, even now, claim that this is not enough? It would be different if there was some solid evidence justifying an investigation, but there is nothing. It has been all bullshit emanating from Trump and hyped by his minions (e.g. Giuliani ):
I accepted he was elected President long before Jan 6th. The legitimacy of which is reasonably questionable as already noted.
Nah, what is real BS though is how hard the left fights "truly independent investigations" into voting irregularities throughout the country. Blah, blah, blah on how above board it was but when folks want to prove that out they whine like little bitches about not needing verification. The sanctimonious crap coming from those same people that supported wasting billions of dollars of tax dollars investigating Trump endlessly, simply on a hatred of Trump is beyond the pale..
You act like you have some kind of high ground here and you've got nothing. Nothing at all.
And here you employ the tactic of merely claiming truth in hopes that it will stick. Just after you claim that Trump does not do your thinking for you, you parrot his modus operandi.
Nothing at all? The USA presidential election process executed as it has done every four years since our founding. But this time, per you, for the first time in history, the US system was compromised to the point of delivering the wrong results and without a trace of evidence / smoking gun??!
The results were independently certified by the secretaries of state for each of the 50 states, their certified results were accepted as valid by Congress and Biden was officially deemed the president elect. The lawsuits filed by Trump, et. al. have ALL failed to deliver anything that would have changed the results of the election in any state much less at a national level. Countless recounts were made all failing to change the results.
And you say I have nothing? Unbelievable Sparty. You stand there without a shred of evidence and posit (even now) an entirely ridiculous claim that Biden might have not legitimately won the presidency and then project the absurdity to me.
Yeah, you got no high ground. It's okay if you disagree. I could care less what your opinion about it is. Same goes for your opinion about Trump thinking for me. 100% off base once again there buddy.
Secretaries of State are not independent. Far from it actually They are responsible for the actual elections. There is a reason "certified" audits don't use staff from the company/business/organization being audited. Perhaps you prefer using the fox to count your hens in the hen house. I don't for very obvious reasons.
Yeah, i didn't stutter either time. You've got no high ground on this one but again, i could really care less what your opinion is on the matter so you can keep rambling on if you want and make no mistake. That is all you have is an opinion. Nothing more.
Show me some real "independent" audits, done by real "independent" auditors and i'll agree with you. I know they have happened here and there but not in most places wher questions arose. In most places the people doing the auditing are the same people who handled the election the first time.
That is the antithesis of independent.
Irony.
Unbelievably believable. These people are intentionally rigging life for the rest of us: doing so in plain sight of everyone! It would seem they are looking for "the fool born every day" stuck in the thicket of our society and social media. If they can get one new 'convert' a day to their way of thinking about 'America" it is a day well served!
Which "truly independent investigations" did the 'left' fight Sparty? Please cite the state and the organization. A link would be even better.
AGAIN, which state failed to verify their election results to your standards?
Hell Trump demanded and Abbott actually acquiesced to doing an audit in Texas where Trump WON. To what purpose? Does Trump want to win Texas by MORE to counter the findings in Arizona?
Hyperbolic much? Unless you can support your 'billions' BS, just stop.
Trump has Durham STILL investigating and we know that the DOJ investigated all of the bullshit 'voting fraud' accusation from Trump after the election. How much has that cost so far?
Ditto.
Projection
Do I believe in both-sides-ism? No.
There are more than two ways to view many issues and there are more than two choices to any substantive issue. The will of any specific person can be behind any or several of answers to issues. People, in and of themselves are a smorgasbord of differences of opinion: A full color spectrum of possibilities, shades, hues and subtle nuance that takes time to understand and appreciate.
Onto this glorious palette we try to superimpose the imprint of politics, in this instance, the "choice" between "R" and "D" as if one were consistently correct and right about whatever issues they and, by circular extension, we are considering to be important at any given moment in time. Hence, a dualistic theme further reduced to monochrome: Flat and lifeless. "You are either for us or against us!" I, for one, refuse to be reduced and confined by these artificial restrictions.
We should, as much as possible, divorce the issues that we care about from the tags that have been attached by politicians. Discuss the issues, not the people promoting them or telling us that R's or D's will bring about destruction of the world as we know it. I believe that if a person is of good moral character, they should be able to make prudent decisions on the present and future of the country regardless of political flavorings. This is why I am seriously disappointed in the current representation of the country at large. A third of Americans seem to have divorced themselves not from the politicians but from the issues and seem blind to enormous character flaws of their great Orange leader, so much so that they, and their political leaders, would follow him to hells gate for the promise of a cookie.
Your assessments are correct. Our resident "conservatives" (they are really trump supporters and nothing much else) know what they are doing and they do it with glee. Red states and their voters are in agreement on every decision made. Thus, you can blame 'red staters' equally as their elected and caught red-handed elected officials.
Trump conservatives are hypocrites. They don't want people of color to know their place in society. Their simple-minded understanding of a "replacement theory" shows just how scared they are of becoming irrelevant. Moreover, its summary evidence of a notion that some Whites in our 'blended' country have only been faking unity; they see no interest or value in letting people of color, women, and homosexuals having equal slices of the "American Pie."