Putin’s Forces Attack Ukraine Ukraine’s government said it faced “a full-scale attack from multiple directions.” World leaders condemned President Vladimir Putin’s actions.
community » Discussions » Category » News & Politics » Discussion » Putin’s Forces Attack Ukraine Ukraine’s government said it faced “a full-scale attack from multiple directions.” World leaders condemned President Vladimir Putin’s actions.
In a direct response to this calamitous news, the leader of the Republican Party , Donald Trump, said it all happened because of " a rigged election". In the U.S.
War has broken out in Europe, and while the current U.S. president tries to stop it, the former U.S. president says it happened because the 2020 election was "stolen" from him. Are you going to tell this maniac to shut the fuck up or not?
Already have. And you see he listens about as much as you don't obsess about his mere existence. And the current US President tries to stop it? LMMFAO John. You think sanctions by just the US are going to work? Surely you can't be serious. I wish to God they would and would stop this madman and his bullshit but they won't. The fucker wants the old USSR back before he dies.
Why do you feel the need to insist that whatever is happening and has been happening for years between Russia and Ukraine is a direct result of some action or inaction of just America? You people are nauseating. This is just more opportunistic political hate bashing.
What hostile things did Putin do when Trump was PotUS?
Good grief, Trump is praising Putin for a "genius" move. From a source that you likely will not reject:
But there is another Republican faction, generally aligned with a certain former president, that doesn’t particularly care about Ukraine, and believes its base doesn’t much care either.
They raised no objection when Donald Trump said Vladimir Putin is a "genius," and "very savvy," for his handling of Ukraine and framing the invasion as a "peacekeeping" mission (which is, of course, an outright lie). Noticeably missing from the Putin praise in that radio interview was even the mildest disapproval for one country using force to seize territory from a sovereign neighbor.
This is from a public speech by Trump (and you can watch the video). And, of course, after praising Putin, Trump merely declares that Putin would not have done this if he were PotUS (but no explanation as to why he thinks he has such influence over Putin).
And his sycophants merely accept this as truth.
The reasoning: Putin did not attack Ukraine while Trump was PotUS therefore he would not have attacked if Trump were still PotUS is naive partisan nonsense.
But with Russia massing troops on the border and the U.S. warning that an invasion could be imminent, our reporting trip sought to paint a picture of the war that has been going on for nearly eight years, killing more than 14,000 people and displacing more than 730,000.
Without praising Putin, he objectively is having his way. It might not be genius, but it’s working for him and no one else appears to be smart enough to stop him.
Putin knows that NATO would not stop him and knows that the Ukraine is no match for him militarily. Apparently he has calculated that his gain of resources from this invasion is net better for him (Putin) even considering the cost of sanctions and admonition from the world.
That said, no official (especially a former PotUS) should be offering any words other than rebuke for what Putin is doing.
Some people seem almost giddy that this happened under Biden.
The sad part is, this wasn't a matter of IF it would happen. It was a matter of WHEN it was going to happen. Biden is a weak president. He was a weak VP. Hell, he's been a weak politician. The world know this, they've witnessed it. To think Putin wouldn't do something is ignoring reality.
Meh, that’s just more disingenuous hyperbolic nonsense. Lies, nothing more and of little use but to put a little more butt cream on the inflamed nether regions of the chronically TDS afflicted.
That is the first thing I've ever seen you get right. It's not contention, its what actually happened. When Obama was in office there was the trouble in Crimea. Trump take office and stands up to Putin and nothing. Biden takes office and Putin starts his shit again. You don't see a pattern?
You think putin should decide US policy depending on who is in office?
no he shouldn't. But Putin and every other world leader watches what the US does. They see a weak leader and Putin is taking advantage of that.
Why do you think putin would not invade with a republican president?
It's not a republican president. It's a weak president. Biden is a weak leader. Has been his whole career. Again, the world sees this and Putin is taking advantage of that. He set the stage for Biden and the US up to look like fucking chumps and Biden dove right in.
I don’t expect shit from him. I would have recommended that he be much tougher on Russia before all of this madness started. But now, the horse has already left the barn, and he’s bragging about closing the door. It’s pathetic.
I would have been tougher on him before 2014 even happened. That’s when the invasion of Ukraine actually began. We have done next to nothing before or since.
Of course, in those days (2012) an unpopular man named Mitt Romney was going around saying Russia was the greatest geopolitical threat. But Obama, Democrats and the media all laughed at him and said “the 80s called and they want their foreign policy back!” Ha Ha, smartasses. Guess they showed him.
Asking how you stop Putin at this point is like asking how a man can have a relationship with his kids whom he abandoned 20 years earlier. Or asking a doctor how he can save a leg that has already turned black. You can’t just let something this poisonous fester and think you can fix it easily. The world let this shit happen and it took years. Now, all it can do is wring its collective hands and “tut tut!”
Actually, this started before 2014 and Ukraine, it goes back to the invasion of Georgia by Russia in 2008 and little was done. Russia currently controls 20% of Georgia.
And afterward Georgia applied to NATO for a MAP... Which was granted.... If anyone think Ukraine is the end of this? think again... It is only the start..
And what could have been done back then? The same as now?
It seems everyone says something should have been done but the way I see it, unless it would have been a military intervention, we will still be in the same boat.
The point is you work on this stuff - forging alliances, preparing vulnerable countries, readying meaningful sanctions and countermeasure, etc. - years before you need them. That way, you don’t have a US presidency, European powers, and the UN trying to figure out how to respond after the invasion happens.
Can you do this for every possible eventuality? No, of course not. But Russia didn’t exactly sneak up on us. It’s not like we’ve been living with Russia for decades and thinking they were good people who would never invade the old SSRs.
And when this idea was brought up years ago? Morons laughed and made jokes.
I don't know what the government knows, I would say a lot more than I do. You cannot tell me that the government had zero idea or never thought of scenarios like this.
Then the question comes up, what can we actually do.
The sanctions were ready and are already being deployed. NATO is united along with the European Union with the US. Troops and arms have been being moved well in advance of Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Other than a precipitous attack on Russia what exactly would you have done that isn't already done?
The world, except China, has done everything possible to prevent and to prepare for and stands united against Russian agression...
What is happening is awful. Second guessing the good guys plays into the bad guys plan.
The point is you work on this stuff - forging alliances, preparing vulnerable countries, readying meaningful sanctions and countermeasure, etc. - years before you need them.
Trump just spent 4 years shitting all over that. Trump threatened to withdraw from NATO and in July 2020 DID approve the withdrawal of 12,000 troops from Germany during one of his 'we're suckers' tantrums.
Biden froze that withdrawal in Feb. 2021. In the year since Biden has been in office, he had to work to rebuild all of the 'stuff' you cited.
That way, you don’t have a US presidency, European powers, and the UN trying to figure out how to respond after the invasion happens.
You can't be so uninformed that you don't know that Biden has been working with the UN, EU and NATO to come to a consensus on sanctions and actions. NATO and the Biden Administration have been in lock step on sanctioning Russia because of its aggression against Ukraine since APRIL, 2021.
US troops have been bringing in material for weeks and are in Poland setting up refugee facilities along the border with Ukraine. The US, UK and NATO have already sent re-enforcements to Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.
ALL of those facts illustrate a pretty fucking high state of preparation BEFORE the invasion happened.
Don’t try to come at me with Trump. I couldn’t give two shits about Trump, so don’t imagine that my overall lukewarm appraisal of international responses to Russia has anything to do with support for Trump. It doesn’t.
You can't be so uninformed that you don't know that Biden has been working with the UN, EU and NATO to come to a consensus on sanctions and actions.
Read before commenting. I am aware of that and have commented on it. My problem with them is not the discussion, but the timing of it. The day after invasion is not the time to be debating about how you will respond. I think that’s a pretty straightforward and sensible criticism. You can disagree with that opinion, but don’t misrepresent it.
since APRIL, 2021
Russia didn’t just appear as a threat to its neighbors or the world in April 2021.
You cannot tell me that the government had zero idea or never thought of scenarios like this.
I never said they had zero idea. That’s the whole point. Russia has always been Russia and it’s not a secret. That sort of makes our tepid response all the more unsatisfying.
Then the question comes up, what can we actually do.
Today? Very little. Perhaps if we had spent years helping Ukraine to be stronger, or even part of NATO. Perhaps if we had been talking to China all these years about economic sanctions. You see, it won’t matter that we sanction Russia if they can just get whatever they want through China. Perhaps if Europe had done more to become energy independent from Russia.
There’s probably a lot of things “we” - meaning the world - could have been doing for years to reward Russia for good behavior and more effectively punish them for bad behavior. The day after they invade Ukraine (again/more) is not the time to figure it out, but that’s literally what the EU and UN are doing today. What the US does will probably have little effect on Russia anyway. We just don’t do that much business with them.
Or we could all just admit that we don’t give a shit about Ukraine and stop pretending that we’re “doing something” with our shiny new sanctions. That, at least, would be honest.
In a report, this AM three NATO countries voted against the strongest of sanctions. Hungry has a rightwing supporter of Putin as president and then Germany and Italy.
Don’t try to come at me with Trump. I couldn’t give two shits about Trump, so don’t imagine that my overall lukewarm appraisal of international responses to Russia has anything to do with support for Trump. It doesn’t.
Nor did I claim it did, so I don't see why you have an issue with my statement.
Read before commenting.
I did. Take your supercilious crap elsewhere.
The day after invasion is not the time to be debating about how you will respond.
AFTER the invasion, when and where are you alleging that this 'debating' took place?
NATO troops were repositioned PRIOR to the invasion.
BEFORE the invasion, the US, UK, EU, Australian and Japan announced sanctions on Russia.
Do you actually think that response was 'off the cuff'?
I think that’s a pretty straightforward and sensible criticism.
Which is, from what I can READ in your comments, based on a false assumption.
You can disagree with that opinion, but don’t misrepresent it.
I haven't so don't misrepresent what I have said.
Russia didn’t just appear as a threat to its neighbors or the world in April 2021.
Actually, this started before 2014 and Ukraine, it goes back to the invasion of Georgia by Russia in 2008 and little was done. Russia currently controls 20% of Georgia.
This is a good point, and speaks to the fact that both the Bush and Obama administrations used the same response of tough talk and ineffective action that Biden, NATO, and the EU has used thus far.
Still, the invasion of Crimea in March 2014, and the response to it, set more of the stage for what is happening now and it is not just a weak response from the US, but from NATO and the EU in general. And that weak response goes back to two primary factors:
1. Many in the European Union are even more dependent on Russia economically than they were even in 2008 or 2014, so they are not going to favor stricter economic sanctions on Russia. So when VP Harris says about Ukraine at the Munich Security Conference on Feb 19, 2022 , " So, the United States, our Allies, and our partners, together, we have achieved remarkable unity. It is evident in our shared acknowledgment of the threats, our united response, and our determination to uphold international rules and norms ." " And let me be clear. I can say with absolute certainty: If Russia further invades Ukraine, the United States, together with our Allies and partners, will impose significant and unprecedented economic costs ." I'm not exactly sure what she is talking about especially in light of news this morning.
2. Ukraine represents a core interest for Russia, but not for America primarily because Ukraine is not a NATO country and we are not dependent on any Russian resources. And that is how both our political parties see it.
Obama’s response to Russia’s invasion of Crimea in March 2014 , and Moscow’s subsequent support of pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine was economic sanctions. Although the measures had an impact on the Russian economy, they were seen as woefully inadequate by some Republican lawmakers in Congress. Senator John McCain of Arizona, a harsh critic of Obama’s foreign policy, wanted the U.S. to send arms to Ukraine. But Obama viewed the Ukraine conflict through another lens. As Jeffrey Goldberg, The Atlantic ’s editor in chief, wrote in the Obama Doctrine: “Obama’s theory here is simple: Ukraine is a core Russian interest but not an American one, so Russia will always be able to maintain escalatory dominance there .” Indeed, Obama told Jeff: “ The fact is that Ukraine, which is a non-NATO country, is going to be vulnerable to military domination by Russia no matter what we do .” Despite their criticism of Obama, the Republican platform ahead of the 2016 presidential election didn’t call for U.S. weapons to be sent to Ukraine to fight Russian-backed rebels.
That is the unfortunate reality in this situation.
I was simply reporting the facts with respect how we have responded historically, and how we are responding now, and I called it "weak" simply because it has been demonstrably ineffective in stopping Russian aggression. What I consider "strong" is irrelevant as I have no say in how the Biden administration, NATO or the EU react given their respective concerns.
What I think might be a "stronger" response is persuading the EU and NATO to really get on the same page, rather than just claiming or pretending like they are with respect to sanctions and response. Address the economic concerns (including dependence on Russian oil or gas) of those like Germany, Italy and Hungary who declined to vote for stronger economic sanctions on Russia. And as a last resort, threaten to help Ukraine arm and defend themselves from illegal aggression, perhaps with an incremental and international approach that shows Russia we mean business, but at the same time really address corruption issues in Ukraine as well. And maybe even nudge Ukraine toward completing their MAP and joining NATO and perhaps even the EU consistent with their Constitutional amendments in 2019.
I don't know, what do you think? It is clear that what we have been doing for the last couple decades isn't working.
I was simply reporting the facts with respect how we have responded historically, and how we are responding now, and I called it "weak" simply because it has been demonstrably ineffective in stopping Russian aggression.
The saying "When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail". Russia is a hammer.
BTW, YESTERDAY was the first time that the international community hit Putin and his enablers in the government personally.
And as a last resort, threaten to help Ukraine arm and defend themselves from illegal aggression, perhaps with an incremental and international approach that shows Russia we mean business, but at the same time really address corruption issues in Ukraine as well.
The 'US president' didn't just 'threaten to help Ukraine arm and defend themselves', he DID arm Ukraine and trained their defenders.
As for 'addressing corruption', we need to practice what we preach. Trump withholding Congressionally authorized military material from Ukraine with impunity hardly sets a good example. Trump using Inaugural funds as a slush fund isn't either. As I'm sure you know, the list goes on and on.
And maybe even nudge Ukraine toward completing their MAP and joining NATO and perhaps even the EU consistent with their Constitutional amendments in 2019.
Russia has demanded that NATO publicly deny Ukraine's membership and have 'annexed' and invaded Ukraine's territory.
It's pretty hard to prove that you're a 'reasonably stable political democracy' when a hammer is smashing you from every angle.
I don't know, what do you think? It is clear that what we have been doing for the last couple decades isn't working.
I think that gauging the success of the process on what Russia has done is short sighted. Per NATO documents, since the late 1990's, Ukraine has gone a long way toward qualify for membership in NATO. NATO's most recent analysis [2019] was very encouraging. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why Putin stepped up his illegal actions.
BTW, YESTERDAY was the first time that the international community hit Putin and his enablers in the government personally.
Actually, no it is not the first time. Many of his enablers have been targeted before in 2008 and 2014 and even under Trump in 2018 as well, albeit for a different reason.
Also, the current sanctions actually stopped short of what you described above, may be difficult to implement, and will likely not be effective in stopping the invasion of Ukraine at this point.
Overall, these penalties do not rise to the level that was imposed on Iran during then-President Donald Trump’s “maximum pressure” campaign, they are extraordinary considering Russia’s much larger role in the global economy. Penalties on Russia’s largest banks will slam the economy. “This is going to mean higher interest rates and less access to capital throughout Russia. It is going to depress economic activity in Russia,” said Schott said. In other words, this will trickle down and mean real pain for ordinary Russians, who had no say at all in Putin’s decisions.
This sanctions package goes far, but there are still questions about how tough they will be in practice. Ukraine has already demanded more pressure , including cutting off Russia’s oil and gas, and its full removal from SWIFT. And even if these penalties are damaging to Russia, they are unlikely to be enough to stop Putin from carrying out this single-minded campaign against Ukraine right now.
More on the sanctions against Putin himself and inner circle HERE .
Until now, Western governments have focused their sanctions on people suspected of serving as Mr. Putin’s proxies, hoping it will increase pressure on him. And most of the new penalties, like those that followed the Russian annexation of Crimea in 2014, continue to be aimed at oligarchs close to Mr. Putin. These include Kirill Shamalov, his former son-in-law and a major shareholder in a Russian petrochemical firm; Boris Rotenberg, a construction magnate; and Gennady Timchenko, an investor said to be Russia’s sixth-richest person.
But Russia’s elites, who have lived under Western sanctions for most of the last decade , have long favored complex mazes of corporate ownership to avoid scrutiny. Oftentimes, their wheeling and dealing only surfaces publicly with the leak of files from offshore law firms or secretive banks that cater to those wanting to hide their wealth.
Paul Massaro, a senior adviser at the U.S. Helsinki Commission who has been counseling members of Congress on Russia sanctions, said it was not always clear to American officials what assets would be affected.
“ It means that the sanctions that we hit these people with are largely going to be glorified press releases, because without knowing what these assets are, we can’t freeze them,” he said.
But, as the article says, perhaps it is worth a try, although the likelihood that these sanctions will be any more effective than past sanctions against Russian oligarchs is pretty slim it would appear. This is a work in progress of course, and there is some talk of still implementing some of the more hefty sanctions that are being requested by Ukraine. Time will tell.
I think that gauging the success of the process on what Russia has done is short sighted.
How so? What is and always has been the purpose of these sanctions? To stop Russian aggression against neighboring countries, right? So how is gauging the lack of success in that area short-sighted?
Per NATO documents, since the late 1990's, Ukraine has gone a long way toward qualify for membership in NATO. NATO's most recent analysis [2019] was very encouraging. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why Putin stepped up his illegal actions.
So what's your point? Do you think that Ukraine should drop plans to join NATO, perhaps other neighboring countries as well, so that they might avoid the wrath of Putin? Is that how it works? I'm hoping I read that wrong and that isn't what you meant at all.
Actually, no it is not the first time. Many of his enablers have been targeted before in 2008 and 2014 and even under Trump in 2018 as well, albeit for a different reason.
Equivocation.
I said 'Putin AND' and your cited 'many of his enablers IN THE GOVERNMENT'.
I said 'Putin AND' and your cited 'many of his enablers IN THE GOVERNMENT'.
Oh I see, so the AND is what makes your argument here? As to whether anyone in the Russian Government had been sanctioned before, specifically related to dealings with Ukraine? A quick look at Wiki sets that straight.
Until now, Western governments have focused their sanctions on people suspected of serving as Mr. Putin’s proxies, hoping it will increase pressure on him. And most of the new penalties, like those that followed the Russian annexation of Crimea in 2014, continue to be aimed at oligarchs close to Mr. Putin.
So such sanctions were aimed at hitting Putin personally, although I will concede that perhaps they did not hit him directly (at least I can find no evidence of that yet). Hence my link to the NYT article that covers what the effectiveness of such a move on Putin's assets might be, and my further discussion of that. Keeping in mind that the move made over the weekend to sanction Putin directly includes only freezing his assets in the US, UK and EU, but places no restrictions on his travel.
You know what that is? That's called a strawman Freewill.
I expected more from you, I was wrong.
Cute. If you want to bail out of a decent discussion that way, be my guest. My point was that sanctions had not been effective, even those against Government officials and other oligarchs close to Putin in the past. What was yours? Simply that Putin AND government officials had never been sanctioned at the same time? Do you honestly think that is going to make much of a difference?
What was yours? Simply that Putin AND government officials had never been sanctioned at the same time?
Again, NO. My point is that this is the FIRST TIME that Putin has been sanctioned.
Do you honestly think that is going to make much of a difference?
I've made no argument one way or another. Since Putin played the 'nuclear' card when they announced sanctions against HIM, which he claims are 'illegal', It seems that going after Putin's assets has made a difference in HIS mind at least.
Now the international community has to get together and follow the money so that Putin and his minions can't just move money to their kids or their girlfriends accounts and deport them all back to Russia.
I've made no argument one way or another. Since Putin played the 'nuclear' card when they announced sanctions against HIM, which he claims are 'illegal', It seems that going after Putin's assets has made a difference in HIS mind at least
OK perhaps, although the nuclear card had been played prior to his being directly targeted with sanctions over the weekend.
Now the international community has to get together and follow the money so that Putin and his minions can't just move money to their kids or their girlfriends accounts and deport them all back to Russia.
Yep - That would be the key and the likelihood of that happening or being successful was discussed in the article to which I linked. How much of his or any of his minions wealth do you think is tied up in the western world or banking system?
Look Dulay - I actually hope you are right, but similar actions against those closest to him have not rendered results historically. For him, I think this is more about power and ego (and the fact that he has lost his mind) more than it is his wealth. The guy thinks that all of Russia is his personal asset.
Nice deflection ..... meanwhile Russia is moving on Ukraine and China is licking it chops on Taiwan ...... and many liberals continue to fiddle with their TDS tuned fiddles.
Nice deflection ..... meanwhile Russia is moving on Ukraine and China is licking it chops on Taiwan ...... and many liberals continue to fiddle with their TDS tuned fiddles.
So you feel the US should start another world war with us and NATO against Russia, China, and whoever else they can get on their side? Is that what you feel we should do?
Do we have any treaty or agreement with Ukraine to protect them in the event of a military action?
If that was your take on my post you need to work on your reading comprehension.
If you'd actually read my comment, you would have seen the question mark (?) at the end. In English, the question mark denote a query, not a statement. So, once again:
So you feel the US should start another world war with us and NATO against Russia, China, and whoever else they can get on their side? Is that what you feel we should do?
A good start would be to stop worrying about Trump and worry more about dealing with Russia and China
Trump is the defacto leader of the republican party, they will follow what he says, right or wrong. So he cannot be ignored.
Boy the gop/republicans are such weak assed little pussies for bowing to trumpturd's and little putin's every whim, every diarrheal utterance, supporting that steaming pile of shit, that traitor, that russian sympathizer.
Boy the gop/republicans are such weak assed little pussies for bowing to trumpturd's and little putin's every whim, every diarrheal utterance, supporting that steaming pile of shit, that traitor, that russian sympathizer.
Welcome to the year 2022--where Trump isn't President and has NOTHING to do with Russia invading the Ukraine.
Must be tough on some people to not have an original thought and have to rely on stupid fucking memes for commentary.
Now, I am just an ordinary conservative Republican and lack a master's degree, but even my limited education somehow allows me to see absolutely no mention of blame anywhere in his post, never mind blaming the human fuck-up in the WH currently.
Do enlighten me and point out what YOU read to produce your response.
Oh for fuck sake get a clue and for once stop trying to bullshit everything.Anyone can read this seed and see where people are blaming Biden and calling him weak.
I am sorry that I can tell the difference between blaming Biden for Russian actions and blaming Biden for America's response to those actions.
Get a fucking clue yourself.
You called out one person specifically, don't try to walk back your comment now or try to explain "what you really meant". I ain't buying that crap today or tomorrow.
Your post specifically aimed at ONE member is still right there (post #5.1.2) and my post following it pointing out what you did is still there, too for all to read and see who is trying to bullshit here.
Ok, what actions do you think Biden should have or had the US do?
What I would have done is irrelevant, as only what Biden and his handlers decide will be done.
But to answer, I would have imposed harsh sanctions BEFORE Russia launched the invasion. I would have demanded that Europe--if it is worried about this---to band together and place sanctions on Russia before the invasion. I would have released some of our oil reserves if necessary to supply Europe with and have them shut down the Russian pipeline.
But to answer, I would have imposed harsh sanctions BEFORE Russia launched the invasion.
Do you mean like the bi-partisan sanctions that were in place, that Biden lifted when he took office?
I would have demanded that Europe--if it is worried about this---to band together and place sanctions on Russia before the invasion.
Kind of like the previous administration did?
I would have released some of our oil reserves if necessary to supply Europe with and have them shut down the Russian pipeline.
Can't say the previous administration did that. But then again they didn't get us into another war.
I see a trend in all that. Seems that what the previous administration was doing was working. Then, in comes this new clusterfuck that had to change all that. Now everything's fucked up and they are trying to revert back to the previous administrations stance.
Well, gee, if we already had effective sanctions against Russia, then there was no need for Biden to announce MORE sanctions AFTER the invasion, was there? The pipeline was shut AFTER the invasion (and it was only the one that isn't yet completed, the first one is open).
You asked ne specifically what I would have done and I told you. I am not going to argue with you over my opinion which you asked for.
The pipeline was completed already, Germany voted a no on letting it flow.
Do you know why the pipeline you are referring to is called Nord Stream 2?
Because there is one before it.
Biden lifted some sanctions in May 2021.
The Nord Stream 2 pipeline's first line wasn't finished until June 2021, and the second line wasn't finished until September 2021, so your claim that they were finished is simply fictional.
I think we should shut them BOTH down--Nord Stream 1 AND 2.
If they were finished last year, yes they were finished...
SMH
Yes, they were finished in 2021. Very good.
Trump had sanctions on the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. Prior to May of 2021. The pipeline was NOT finished at this time. Then Biden LIFTED sanctions, and the pipelines were completed.
Really, this is simple.
You asked for MY opinion.
Arguing against what you asked for and is solely my opinion is ludicrous and trolling.
And your opinion is nothing more than what has already happened.
Biden stopped sanctions on a pipeline that had nothing to do with our country.
Do you think they stopped building the pipeline with trump sanctions?
I have tried to be patient with you. How many times and in what other ways must I say "I am not going to argue my opinion with you" in order for it to be recognized?
I remember way back when I opposed the US invading a country that did nothing to the US and I was called a traitor for supporting terrorist (except no terrorist came from that particular country). Now those same people are cheering on Putin and saying it's Biden's fault, while at the same time saying we have no dog in this fight stay out of it. The contradictions make no sense, but hey they don't fucking care as long as they make a couple of points in the next election. Sad... bigly.
"I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, 'This is genius.' Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine, of Ukraine, Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that's wonderful," - Donald Trump
Thats not proof. The fact that you consider that “cheering on” says it all. You are allowing your chronic TDS to negatively affect your ability to properly reason.
GAWD ...... this TDS thing is just getting worse and worse.....
No, we're not cheering on Putin or his actions. This has been planned for some time, and we powerless to stop it. What dog do we have in this European territorial dispute? Would like to see us in a shooting war with Russia?
What dog do we have in this European territorial dispute?
Besides the treaties and trade agreements we've signed with those other NATO countries? Only the power of our own political and economical influence. If you think inflation is bad now, how much worse would it be if the world stopped using the US dollar value started to plummet?
Would like to see us in a shooting war with Russia?
I think if every NATO country including the US had put their tanks on the Ukraine boarder opposite those Russian tanks, Putin would have backed down a long time ago. Now we'll play chicken until one of those NATO boarder countries finds an excuse to start shooting.
Lets see a by name list of these people with exactly where any of them are cheering Putin.
saying it's Biden's fault, while at the same time saying we have no dog in this fight stay out of it.
yes, this is Biden's fault. If he weren't such a weak fuck up we or anybody else wouldn't be having this conversation. FFS the man can barely string a comprehendible sentence together. That alone should have been your warning. But, hey, at least you don't have any more mean tweets.
We don't have a dog in this fight and should stay out of it. Just like I stated when Obama and Biden sent US Soldiers back to Iraq with the addition of Syria to the Area of Operations.
Meanwhile the left fiddles and gaslights with their heads up their collective ass.
So what "the left" be doing? Be specific.
There’s a good chance this shit is going to spill over on all of us.
It already has. The military has been moving troops and equipment all over Europe AND the Pacific. How long before one of the boarding NATO countries finds an excuse to start shooting?
I’m sure this is waste of my time with you but I’ll give it one go.
So what "the left" be doing? Be specific.
Specifically, see 8.1 above. No one is “cheering on” Putin except our enemies. Still waiting for you to prove that they are
There’s a good chance this shit is going to spill over on all of us.
It already has. The military has been moving troops and equipment all over Europe AND the Pacific. How long before one of the boarding NATO countries finds an excuse to start shooting?
only because of Biden’s feckless and completely anemic foreign policy. SODDD for Biden. He’s been consistently wrong on foreign policy for most of his 50 year political career.
Neither but knowing Trumps mentality it wasn’t meant as support but rather a simple business minded comment.
Do you recognize the political / diplomatic significance of a former PotUS describing a (then pending) invasion of the Ukraine by Russia as " genius "?
It does not matter what Trump was thinking or what he meant. He just publicly —on the world stage— provided Putin a gift that will help Putin justify his move and rally political support within Russia and with its allies.
Do you recognize this?
Aid and Comfort
To render assistance or counsel. Any act that deliberately strengthens or tends to strengthen enemies of the United States, or that weakens or tends to weaken the power of the United States to resist and attack such enemies is characterized as aid and comfort. Article 3, section 3, clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution specifies that the giving of aid and comfort to the enemy is an element in the crime of TREASON . Aid and comfort may consist of substantial assistance or the mere attempt to provide some support; actual help or the success of the enterprise is not relevant.
I’m not defending what Trump said but I also don’t characterize it with same vitriol you do. His comments don’t say he supports Putins actions in Ukraine. Not in the least.
So I guess Biden was giving Putin aid and comfort when he characterized him as a worthy adversary. Also when he inferred minor incursions might be acceptable. I love how you just gloss over what sitting our current president has said that gave Putin “aid and comfort” as you put it.
SOSDD ..... you hammer on Trump and give Biden a total pass for doing as bad or worse. And you can’t see it ..... amazing.
I’m not defending what Trump said but I also don’t characterize it with same vitriol you do.
Vitriol? This is fact:
TiG @ 9.1.5 - It does not matter what Trump was thinking or what he meant. He just publicly —on the world stage— provided Putin a gift that will help Putin justify his move and rally political support within Russia and with its allies.
Do you not recognize the value to Putin of Trump's comments?
So I guess Biden was giving Putin aid and comfort when he characterized him as a worthy adversary. Also when he inferred minor incursions might be acceptable.
'Worthy adversary' was part of diplomacy. Biden was being complimentary (as opposed to being a gratuitous asshole) while establishing diplomatic relationships with another world leader . That is what one would expect.
And on the 'minor excursions':
'And it depends on what it does,' Biden continued. 'It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do, et cetera.'
Biden was noting that the USA response depends upon the level of Putin's aggression. You have a problem with responding based on the specifics of a situation?
I love how you just gloss over ...
You are attempting (yet again ... while simultaneously denying it) to defend Trump's inexcusable choice to, in the face of an invasion, tell the world that he (a former PotUS) thinks that invading Ukraine is a genius move on Putin's part. Biden has not said anything that even hints at approval of Putin's aggression.
Pathetic. What does Trump have to do before you stop defending him?
TiG @ 9.1.5 - It does not matter what Trump was thinking or what he meant. He just publicly —on the world stage— provided Putin a gift that will help Putin justify his move and rally political support within Russia and with its allies.
lol .... I’m sure you do believe your opinion is fact. That a big part of the problem
Do you not recognize the value to Putin of Trump's comments?
So I guess Biden was giving Putin aid and comfort when he characterized him as a worthy adversary. Also when he inferred minor incursions might be acceptable.
'Worthy adversary' was part of diplomacy. Biden was being complimentary (as opposed to being a gratuitous asshole) while establishing diplomatic relationships with another world leader . That is what one would expect.
Do you not recognize the value of Biden’s comments to Putin?
And on the 'minor excursions':
'And it depends on what it does,' Biden continued. 'It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and then we end up having a fight about what to do and not do, et cetera.'dailymail.co.uk
Biden was noting that the USA response depends upon the level of Putin's aggression. You have a problem with responding based on the specifics of a situation?
I see .... I think folks getting caught in those “minor incursions” might disagree with you and comrade Biden.
I love how you just gloss over ...
You are attempting (yet again ... while simultaneously denying it) to defend Trump's inexcusable choice to, in the face of an invasion, tell the world that he (a former PotUS) thinks that invading Ukraine is a genius move on Putin's part. Biden has not said anything that even hints at approval of Putin's aggression.
Pathetic. What does Trump have to do before you stop defending him?
Lol your interpretation of Trumps comment is the really fucked up thing here. Had he really meant it the way you took it, I would have agreed with you but since he clearly didn’t, it’s a moot point. Your allusions that I have somehow supported your crazy interpretation of Trumps comment, is the usual crazy nonsense we see coming from the TDS afflicted. That said, I’m surprised it took you this long to resort to your usual sophomoric insulting debate tactics.
You do not comprehend that it is a fact that Trump just publicly —on the world stage— provided Putin a gift that will help Putin justify his move and rally political support within Russia and with its allies??
Lol your interpretation of Trumps comment is the really fucked up thing here. Had he really meant it the way you took it, I would have agreed with you but since he clearly didn’t, it’s a moot point.
Always with the strawman. I stated that Trump's intended meaning was irrelevant. Here, read:
TiG @ 9.1.5 ☞ It does not matter what Trump was thinking or what he meant. He just publicly —on the world stage— provided Putin a gift that will help Putin justify his move and rally political support within Russia and with its allies.
That means that I am not interpreting Trump's intent but rather commenting on the effect of his words.
that Trump just publicly —on the world stage— provided Putin a gift that will help Putin justify his move and rally political support within Russia and with its allies??
The Russian TV is replaying these Republicans such as Trump, Tucker Carlson et al...
Partisans will blame the opposing PotUS for anything; facts, reason and truth are irrelevant.
Huh?
'Our' politicians are 'expected' to lie / it is 'accepted' when they lie. 'we' voted for what is considered the lesser of 2 evils for president and 'our' representatives in government - certainly has nothing to do with partisans regarding the irrelevance of fact, reason and truth in America. (just ask the so call American free press)
Biden has been an idiot since taking office .. especially regarding Putin .. the president (who shall remain nameless) before him was a fucking idiot in office as well and so on and so forth ... had the US not been so busy violating international law of a sovereign nation in 2008, perhaps more would have been done to stop Putin .. or perhaps in 2014 if once again the United States was not so busy violating international law of a sovereign nation more would have been done to have stopped Putin laying claim to Crimea and the Black Sea port .. sanctions are a joke / the hypocrisy is thick .. 'we' are buying oil from Russia, if Putin himself is sanctioned that would have to stop .. just like back in 2014, the sanctions could not affect what 'we' bought from Russia.
Simple truth is 'we' have no business in Ukraine ,, if Ukraine was anything more than a bankrupt country the EU would have made them a member state in 2014 .. the talk of NATO now making them a member state is meant to be nothing more than a poke with a sharp stick at the bear that is Putin.
Where is a man like George HW Bush when we need him .. bomb the shit out of the Russian forces to send them packing or shut the fuck up and sit back and watch what happens just like 'we' did with the plight of the Syrian people .. did not seem to care much about the genocide and mass exodus that took place there .. my oldest son tells me that the only reason 'Americans' are so up in arms over Ukraine is because the people are white .. I hate to believe that is true - but 'we' certainly washed our hands of the people of the so called ME...!
World leaders condemned President Vladimir Putin’s actions.
Ooooo! Condemnation! That’ll have a big impact for sure.
I’m not saying anyone can or should do something specific about Ukraine and Russia, but let’s not pretend that condemnation (or sanctions, for that matter) mean a fucking thing. The international community is helpless to respond to this in a meaningful way.
Your comment reflects history correctly. I would use feckless rather than helpless. They have power, they just do not have the will to use it effectively.
Your comment reflects history correctly. I would use feckless rather than helpless. They have power, they just do not have the will to use it effectively.
So the message to Ukraine is "good luck, we'll send pillows" and just like in 2014 we'll levy some sanctions (but not on Putin, of course) and that will be the end of the independent Ukraine. In a couple of months, it will be all be back to normal. Putin's lucky to have such a great friend in Germany.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
In a direct response to this calamitous news, the leader of the Republican Party , Donald Trump, said it all happened because of " a rigged election". In the U.S.
Yep, he said it.
Oh FFS - once again - it's all about the trumpturd.
He won't even let his buddy Putin hog the spotlight.
What hostile things did Putin do when Trump was PotUS? NAFTA (Not A Fucking Thing Again)
War has broken out in Europe, and while the current U.S. president tries to stop it, the former U.S. president says it happened because the 2020 election was "stolen" from him. Are you going to tell this maniac to shut the fuck up or not?
You know the answer.
Already have. And you see he listens about as much as you don't obsess about his mere existence. And the current US President tries to stop it? LMMFAO John. You think sanctions by just the US are going to work? Surely you can't be serious. I wish to God they would and would stop this madman and his bullshit but they won't. The fucker wants the old USSR back before he dies.
And he is doing a really crappy job at stopping it, just like everything else he does.
You don't count interfering in a US election?
I'll ask again and probably get the same non answer, What hostile things did Putin do when Trump was PotUS?
Hey, even if that were true, Trump wasn't PotUS yet. Reading is fundamental and comprehension is key.
Epic FAIL and a hearty LMMFAO
Russia has been attacking Ukraine for the last decade, just not this all out assault. Give it a rest already.
"You don't count interfering in a US election?"
No evidence that ever happened
But but but didn't MSNBC and CNN say it happened? They would never lie.
And who, and what party, was in the White House a decade ago. You give it a rest. I'm not fatigued in the least. You seem to be.
Why do you feel the need to insist that whatever is happening and has been happening for years between Russia and Ukraine is a direct result of some action or inaction of just America? You people are nauseating. This is just more opportunistic political hate bashing.
Russia has been militarily invading Ukraine on all fronts for years?
Interesting take .......
It escalated just like Crimea did. That you don't see the correlation of perceived weakness with the escalations is NOT my problem.
Now we know which hand you get fed by.
Good grief, Trump is praising Putin for a "genius" move. From a source that you likely will not reject:
This is from a public speech by Trump (and you can watch the video). And, of course, after praising Putin, Trump merely declares that Putin would not have done this if he were PotUS (but no explanation as to why he thinks he has such influence over Putin).
And his sycophants merely accept this as truth.
The reasoning: Putin did not attack Ukraine while Trump was PotUS therefore he would not have attacked if Trump were still PotUS is naive partisan nonsense.
But with Russia massing troops on the border and the U.S. warning that an invasion could be imminent, our reporting trip sought to paint a picture of the war that has been going on for nearly eight years, killing more than 14,000 people and displacing more than 730,000.
Be real, he’s not trying to stop shit. At least, I hope this isn’t what “try” looks like because it’s useless.
Without praising Putin, he objectively is having his way. It might not be genius, but it’s working for him and no one else appears to be smart enough to stop him.
What do you expect him to do?
How would you stop him?
Some people seem almost giddy that this happened under Biden.
Politico can rationalize it all it wants. The fact remains the recent massive build up and actual invasion just happened.
Actions speak louder than rationalizations.
Putin knows that NATO would not stop him and knows that the Ukraine is no match for him militarily. Apparently he has calculated that his gain of resources from this invasion is net better for him (Putin) even considering the cost of sanctions and admonition from the world.
That said, no official (especially a former PotUS) should be offering any words other than rebuke for what Putin is doing.
Not true for most and a ridiculously hyperbolic supposition.
Seems some are projecting what they would do were the tables turned.
Yet here you all are blaming Biden instead of the aggressor...
Seem? This is disgusting to observe.
Tell that to the families of 14,000 dead people and 730,000 displaced people.
Show me where I blamed only Biden.
Any allusion that Biden didn’t have his part to play in this is just simply obtuse. That said, I put most of the blame for this on the EU.
Germany supporting Russia with another pipeline, etc, etc.
So now being obtuse. Well I don't only blame Biden....
I just did but according to you and politico this has been going on for eight years so they had plenty of time to plan for it right?
The sad part is, this wasn't a matter of IF it would happen. It was a matter of WHEN it was going to happen. Biden is a weak president. He was a weak VP. Hell, he's been a weak politician. The world know this, they've witnessed it. To think Putin wouldn't do something is ignoring reality.
Of course you don’t and yes, your position is obtuse. Absolutely and completely obtuse.
So it is your contention that putin was always going to do this yet specifically waited until a Dem was in office...
Once again, you offer absolutely nothing.
That feeling, per usual considering .... is mutual.
100% mutual .....
They hate democracy and they hate America.
More incoherent ramblings from the guy who didn’t even know that Russia has been aggressing Ukraine for the past eight years.
[Deleted]
Do you actually believe that crap, or are you just repeating what you have heard?
Meh, that’s just more disingenuous hyperbolic nonsense. Lies, nothing more and of little use but to put a little more butt cream on the inflamed nether regions of the chronically TDS afflicted.
[Deleted]
That is the first thing I've ever seen you get right. It's not contention, its what actually happened. When Obama was in office there was the trouble in Crimea. Trump take office and stands up to Putin and nothing. Biden takes office and Putin starts his shit again. You don't see a pattern?
You think putin should decide US policy depending on who is in office?
What do you think Obama should have done? Why do you think putin would not invade with a republican president?
This seed is not about me ....
Psst. What Biden is doing to "stop it" isn't working very well---not even according to the lead story on CNN.
When will you realize the orange man is no longer in office and has ZERO to do with this fiasco?
Repeating what I constantly see the right accusing the left of on this site. Annoying isn't it.
So you don't believe it, just aping what you have heard.
Okay then.
no he shouldn't. But Putin and every other world leader watches what the US does. They see a weak leader and Putin is taking advantage of that.
It's not a republican president. It's a weak president. Biden is a weak leader. Has been his whole career. Again, the world sees this and Putin is taking advantage of that. He set the stage for Biden and the US up to look like fucking chumps and Biden dove right in.
While other people on this site are writing with fountain pens, many of the right wingers here are writing in crayon.
You can't understand NT unless you understand that.
I don’t expect shit from him. I would have recommended that he be much tougher on Russia before all of this madness started. But now, the horse has already left the barn, and he’s bragging about closing the door. It’s pathetic.
I would have been tougher on him before 2014 even happened. That’s when the invasion of Ukraine actually began. We have done next to nothing before or since.
Of course, in those days (2012) an unpopular man named Mitt Romney was going around saying Russia was the greatest geopolitical threat. But Obama, Democrats and the media all laughed at him and said “the 80s called and they want their foreign policy back!” Ha Ha, smartasses. Guess they showed him.
Asking how you stop Putin at this point is like asking how a man can have a relationship with his kids whom he abandoned 20 years earlier. Or asking a doctor how he can save a leg that has already turned black. You can’t just let something this poisonous fester and think you can fix it easily. The world let this shit happen and it took years. Now, all it can do is wring its collective hands and “tut tut!”
I hope Mitt Romney is rocking a T-shirt that says “I fucking told you so.”
But then he’s Mormon, and I’m not sure they go in for T-shirts.
Actually, this started before 2014 and Ukraine, it goes back to the invasion of Georgia by Russia in 2008 and little was done. Russia currently controls 20% of Georgia.
And afterward Georgia applied to NATO for a MAP... Which was granted.... If anyone think Ukraine is the end of this? think again... It is only the start..
it's embroidered across the front of his geezus jammies.
And what could have been done back then? The same as now?
It seems everyone says something should have been done but the way I see it, unless it would have been a military intervention, we will still be in the same boat.
The point is you work on this stuff - forging alliances, preparing vulnerable countries, readying meaningful sanctions and countermeasure, etc. - years before you need them. That way, you don’t have a US presidency, European powers, and the UN trying to figure out how to respond after the invasion happens.
Can you do this for every possible eventuality? No, of course not. But Russia didn’t exactly sneak up on us. It’s not like we’ve been living with Russia for decades and thinking they were good people who would never invade the old SSRs.
And when this idea was brought up years ago? Morons laughed and made jokes.
I don't know what the government knows, I would say a lot more than I do. You cannot tell me that the government had zero idea or never thought of scenarios like this.
Then the question comes up, what can we actually do.
The sanctions were ready and are already being deployed. NATO is united along with the European Union with the US. Troops and arms have been being moved well in advance of Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Other than a precipitous attack on Russia what exactly would you have done that isn't already done?
The world, except China, has done everything possible to prevent and to prepare for and stands united against Russian agression...
What is happening is awful. Second guessing the good guys plays into the bad guys plan.
Get with the program and behind the US of A!
Yes but they do believe in the importance of wearing some very special magic underwear....
Seriously, do you actually think any sane person would think this is the end of it?
Wrong and stop trying to put words in my mouth.
[deleted]
Trump just spent 4 years shitting all over that. Trump threatened to withdraw from NATO and in July 2020 DID approve the withdrawal of 12,000 troops from Germany during one of his 'we're suckers' tantrums.
Biden froze that withdrawal in Feb. 2021. In the year since Biden has been in office, he had to work to rebuild all of the 'stuff' you cited.
You can't be so uninformed that you don't know that Biden has been working with the UN, EU and NATO to come to a consensus on sanctions and actions. NATO and the Biden Administration have been in lock step on sanctioning Russia because of its aggression against Ukraine since APRIL, 2021.
US troops have been bringing in material for weeks and are in Poland setting up refugee facilities along the border with Ukraine. The US, UK and NATO have already sent re-enforcements to Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.
ALL of those facts illustrate a pretty fucking high state of preparation BEFORE the invasion happened.
Don’t try to come at me with Trump. I couldn’t give two shits about Trump, so don’t imagine that my overall lukewarm appraisal of international responses to Russia has anything to do with support for Trump. It doesn’t.
Read before commenting. I am aware of that and have commented on it. My problem with them is not the discussion, but the timing of it. The day after invasion is not the time to be debating about how you will respond. I think that’s a pretty straightforward and sensible criticism. You can disagree with that opinion, but don’t misrepresent it.
Russia didn’t just appear as a threat to its neighbors or the world in April 2021.
Totally agree.
I never said they had zero idea. That’s the whole point. Russia has always been Russia and it’s not a secret. That sort of makes our tepid response all the more unsatisfying.
Today? Very little. Perhaps if we had spent years helping Ukraine to be stronger, or even part of NATO. Perhaps if we had been talking to China all these years about economic sanctions. You see, it won’t matter that we sanction Russia if they can just get whatever they want through China. Perhaps if Europe had done more to become energy independent from Russia.
There’s probably a lot of things “we” - meaning the world - could have been doing for years to reward Russia for good behavior and more effectively punish them for bad behavior. The day after they invade Ukraine (again/more) is not the time to figure it out, but that’s literally what the EU and UN are doing today. What the US does will probably have little effect on Russia anyway. We just don’t do that much business with them.
Or we could all just admit that we don’t give a shit about Ukraine and stop pretending that we’re “doing something” with our shiny new sanctions. That, at least, would be honest.
In a report, this AM three NATO countries voted against the strongest of sanctions. Hungry has a rightwing supporter of Putin as president and then Germany and Italy.
The head of the EU ripped all of them publicly.
Nor did I claim it did, so I don't see why you have an issue with my statement.
I did. Take your supercilious crap elsewhere.
AFTER the invasion, when and where are you alleging that this 'debating' took place?
NATO troops were repositioned PRIOR to the invasion.
BEFORE the invasion, the US, UK, EU, Australian and Japan announced sanctions on Russia.
Do you actually think that response was 'off the cuff'?
Which is, from what I can READ in your comments, based on a false assumption.
I haven't so don't misrepresent what I have said.
Revelatory. /s
Yup. #45 spent 4 years shitting all over everything
For crying out loud.
Read. The. Thread! It’s really not that hard.
Scroll up to the comment before yours and you will see that Europe is debating TODAY on sanctions and they can’t agree.
Try to read and understand or leave me be. Trolling comments from you do not interest me.
Freakin typical. I know it’s not nearly the same level, but shit like this is why Russia still gets to be in the Olympics.
This is a good point, and speaks to the fact that both the Bush and Obama administrations used the same response of tough talk and ineffective action that Biden, NATO, and the EU has used thus far.
Still, the invasion of Crimea in March 2014, and the response to it, set more of the stage for what is happening now and it is not just a weak response from the US, but from NATO and the EU in general. And that weak response goes back to two primary factors:
1. Many in the European Union are even more dependent on Russia economically than they were even in 2008 or 2014, so they are not going to favor stricter economic sanctions on Russia. So when VP Harris says about Ukraine at the Munich Security Conference on Feb 19, 2022 , " So, the United States, our Allies, and our partners, together, we have achieved remarkable unity. It is evident in our shared acknowledgment of the threats, our united response, and our determination to uphold international rules and norms ." " And let me be clear. I can say with absolute certainty: If Russia further invades Ukraine, the United States, together with our Allies and partners, will impose significant and unprecedented economic costs ." I'm not exactly sure what she is talking about especially in light of news this morning.
2. Ukraine represents a core interest for Russia, but not for America primarily because Ukraine is not a NATO country and we are not dependent on any Russian resources. And that is how both our political parties see it.
That is the unfortunate reality in this situation.
Again, your comment is supercilious bullshit.
You stated:
In reply to my comment about Biden working with the UN, EU and NATO, you stated:
'It really isn't that hard' to see that you aren't talking about Hungary, Germany and Italy debating about the EXTENT of sanctions YESTERDAY.
In fact, I hope that members will note that you cited the 'US presidency', NOT the US.
Telling.
On February, 22, AGAIN that's before the invasion, the EU voted UNANIMOUSLY to sanction Russia.
The 'debate' you are talking about is a SECOND wave of sanctions.
Try to keep up Tacos.
TODAY, the EU took the same step as the US, UK and Canada and agreed to sanction Putin.
Ya Tacos, these motherfuckers are all over the place, aren't they?
I did read and I understand perfectly. Stop the supercilious bullshit.
Either flag my comment or reply to it.
Per the CoC, you can't have it both ways.
What response would you consider 'strong'?
Ukraine is not a member of NATO or the EU. The US has NO mutual defense treaty with Ukraine.
Would you have the US respond to an illegal insurgency with illegal actions?
Would you have the US declare war against Russia?
Drop the 82nd Airborne into Ukraine to defend it?
Send a US Naval fleet into the Black Sea?
Just curious where your line is drawn...
I was simply reporting the facts with respect how we have responded historically, and how we are responding now, and I called it "weak" simply because it has been demonstrably ineffective in stopping Russian aggression. What I consider "strong" is irrelevant as I have no say in how the Biden administration, NATO or the EU react given their respective concerns.
What I think might be a "stronger" response is persuading the EU and NATO to really get on the same page, rather than just claiming or pretending like they are with respect to sanctions and response. Address the economic concerns (including dependence on Russian oil or gas) of those like Germany, Italy and Hungary who declined to vote for stronger economic sanctions on Russia. And as a last resort, threaten to help Ukraine arm and defend themselves from illegal aggression, perhaps with an incremental and international approach that shows Russia we mean business, but at the same time really address corruption issues in Ukraine as well. And maybe even nudge Ukraine toward completing their MAP and joining NATO and perhaps even the EU consistent with their Constitutional amendments in 2019.
I don't know, what do you think? It is clear that what we have been doing for the last couple decades isn't working.
The saying "When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail". Russia is a hammer.
BTW, YESTERDAY was the first time that the international community hit Putin and his enablers in the government personally.
The 'US president' didn't just 'threaten to help Ukraine arm and defend themselves', he DID arm Ukraine and trained their defenders.
As for 'addressing corruption', we need to practice what we preach. Trump withholding Congressionally authorized military material from Ukraine with impunity hardly sets a good example. Trump using Inaugural funds as a slush fund isn't either. As I'm sure you know, the list goes on and on.
Russia has demanded that NATO publicly deny Ukraine's membership and have 'annexed' and invaded Ukraine's territory.
It's pretty hard to prove that you're a 'reasonably stable political democracy' when a hammer is smashing you from every angle.
I think that gauging the success of the process on what Russia has done is short sighted. Per NATO documents, since the late 1990's, Ukraine has gone a long way toward qualify for membership in NATO. NATO's most recent analysis [2019] was very encouraging. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why Putin stepped up his illegal actions.
Actually, no it is not the first time. Many of his enablers have been targeted before in 2008 and 2014 and even under Trump in 2018 as well, albeit for a different reason.
Also, the current sanctions actually stopped short of what you described above, may be difficult to implement, and will likely not be effective in stopping the invasion of Ukraine at this point.
More on the sanctions against Putin himself and inner circle HERE .
But, as the article says, perhaps it is worth a try, although the likelihood that these sanctions will be any more effective than past sanctions against Russian oligarchs is pretty slim it would appear. This is a work in progress of course, and there is some talk of still implementing some of the more hefty sanctions that are being requested by Ukraine. Time will tell.
How so? What is and always has been the purpose of these sanctions? To stop Russian aggression against neighboring countries, right? So how is gauging the lack of success in that area short-sighted?
So what's your point? Do you think that Ukraine should drop plans to join NATO, perhaps other neighboring countries as well, so that they might avoid the wrath of Putin? Is that how it works? I'm hoping I read that wrong and that isn't what you meant at all.
Equivocation.
I said 'Putin AND' and your cited 'many of his enablers IN THE GOVERNMENT'.
You know what that is?
That's called a strawman Freewill.
I expected more from you, I was wrong.
Oh I see, so the AND is what makes your argument here? As to whether anyone in the Russian Government had been sanctioned before, specifically related to dealings with Ukraine? A quick look at Wiki sets that straight.
As the article to which I linked above indicates,
So such sanctions were aimed at hitting Putin personally, although I will concede that perhaps they did not hit him directly (at least I can find no evidence of that yet). Hence my link to the NYT article that covers what the effectiveness of such a move on Putin's assets might be, and my further discussion of that. Keeping in mind that the move made over the weekend to sanction Putin directly includes only freezing his assets in the US, UK and EU, but places no restrictions on his travel.
Cute. If you want to bail out of a decent discussion that way, be my guest. My point was that sanctions had not been effective, even those against Government officials and other oligarchs close to Putin in the past. What was yours? Simply that Putin AND government officials had never been sanctioned at the same time? Do you honestly think that is going to make much of a difference?
Obviously not.
No, Putin makes my argument.
Again, NO. My point is that this is the FIRST TIME that Putin has been sanctioned.
I've made no argument one way or another. Since Putin played the 'nuclear' card when they announced sanctions against HIM, which he claims are 'illegal', It seems that going after Putin's assets has made a difference in HIS mind at least.
Now the international community has to get together and follow the money so that Putin and his minions can't just move money to their kids or their girlfriends accounts and deport them all back to Russia.
OK perhaps, although the nuclear card had been played prior to his being directly targeted with sanctions over the weekend.
Yep - That would be the key and the likelihood of that happening or being successful was discussed in the article to which I linked. How much of his or any of his minions wealth do you think is tied up in the western world or banking system?
Look Dulay - I actually hope you are right, but similar actions against those closest to him have not rendered results historically. For him, I think this is more about power and ego (and the fact that he has lost his mind) more than it is his wealth. The guy thinks that all of Russia is his personal asset.
Yes, he did say it and it is not surprising coming from a POS like Trump.
Source?
Trump's big mouth is the source, but here....
Nice deflection ..... meanwhile Russia is moving on Ukraine and China is licking it chops on Taiwan ...... and many liberals continue to fiddle with their TDS tuned fiddles.
So you feel the US should start another world war with us and NATO against Russia, China, and whoever else they can get on their side? Is that what you feel we should do?
Do we have any treaty or agreement with Ukraine to protect them in the event of a military action?
If that was your take on my post you need to work on your reading comprehension.
A good start would be to stop worrying about Trump and worry more about dealing with Russia and China
If you'd actually read my comment, you would have seen the question mark (?) at the end. In English, the question mark denote a query, not a statement. So, once again:
So you feel the US should start another world war with us and NATO against Russia, China, and whoever else they can get on their side? Is that what you feel we should do?
Trump is the defacto leader of the republican party, they will follow what he says, right or wrong. So he cannot be ignored.
And what has he written specifically to lead you to think that is what he believes?
Don’t bother, as predicted and per usual, interaction here is a complete waste of time.
SOSDD
Strike three ..... yer out!
I have already lectured you many times on the meaning of a question mark. Reread one of those if you are still confused about it.
So, once again a refusal to answer a simple question. It is almost like you have no opinion of your own.
perhaps you should read your "question".
You are hardly qualified to lecture me on anything.
You should stop wasting your time on such an asinine task.
He doesn't. It's that alleged conservative drone/hive mind.
Is projection, denial and deflection all you have?
Great question, but I have a feeling you already know the answer.
Is that why when you ask one of them a question, everyone but the one you asked, tries to respond?
Yeah, see how two drones responded?
Boy the gop/republicans are such weak assed little pussies for bowing to trumpturd's and little putin's every whim, every diarrheal utterance, supporting that steaming pile of shit, that traitor, that russian sympathizer.
Welcome to the year 2022--where Trump isn't President and has NOTHING to do with Russia invading the Ukraine.
Welcome to reality!!!
The response is to be expected. It is right in the liberal playbook
When you don't have anything:
1 Trump
2. You are a racist
3. Go to 1 and start again.
Denial, projection, and deflection away from Biden's cold war.
Must be tough on some people to not have an original thought and have to rely on stupid fucking memes for commentary.
Funny how you blame Biden yet not putin...
Here is what you responded TO:
Now, I am just an ordinary conservative Republican and lack a master's degree, but even my limited education somehow allows me to see absolutely no mention of blame anywhere in his post, never mind blaming the human fuck-up in the WH currently.
Do enlighten me and point out what YOU read to produce your response.
Oh for fuck sake get a clue and for once stop trying to bullshit everything.
Anyone can read this seed and see where people are blaming Biden and calling him weak.
Where exactly did I blame Biden and NOT blame Putin? Might I suggest you read 1.2.3 above? You'll be glad you did.
And it isn't just Biden that would get the blame if I did it is the whole of the administration and his handlers/puppeteers that project weakness.
So yes you are blaming him.
I am sorry that I can tell the difference between blaming Biden for Russian actions and blaming Biden for America's response to those actions.
Get a fucking clue yourself.
You called out one person specifically, don't try to walk back your comment now or try to explain "what you really meant". I ain't buying that crap today or tomorrow.
"So yes you are blaming him."
But of course. It's their 'go to' - their revenge because we treated their big fat steaming pile of shit hero so unfairly.
Projection, denial, and deflection is all that post is. As always.
I am saying all of you are doing it. Deny it all you want, anyone can read what you all have been saying.
So once again, you just come back with a bunch of bullshit.
Well, you called out one member specifically, I blame more than Biden (while blaming Biden), Biden is weak is why this happened, on and on.
Yet go ahead and deny reality.
Your post specifically aimed at ONE member is still right there (post #5.1.2) and my post following it pointing out what you did is still there, too for all to read and see who is trying to bullshit here.
No need to walk it back now.
I am saying it for all to see. I am calling out all of you. Don't like it, tough shit.
Butt, butt, butt, you said it to one person....
ooh, scary!
I can and DO recognize the difference between blaming Putin for Russia's actions and blaming Biden for US actions.
Damn shame others can't.
[Deleted]
Ok, what actions do you think Biden should have or had the US do?
What I would have done is irrelevant, as only what Biden and his handlers decide will be done.
But to answer, I would have imposed harsh sanctions BEFORE Russia launched the invasion. I would have demanded that Europe--if it is worried about this---to band together and place sanctions on Russia before the invasion. I would have released some of our oil reserves if necessary to supply Europe with and have them shut down the Russian pipeline.
And what of that had not been done?
Besides our oil reserves which is different than gas.
Do you mean like the bi-partisan sanctions that were in place, that Biden lifted when he took office?
Kind of like the previous administration did?
Can't say the previous administration did that. But then again they didn't get us into another war.
I see a trend in all that. Seems that what the previous administration was doing was working. Then, in comes this new clusterfuck that had to change all that. Now everything's fucked up and they are trying to revert back to the previous administrations stance.
Well, gee, if we already had effective sanctions against Russia, then there was no need for Biden to announce MORE sanctions AFTER the invasion, was there? The pipeline was shut AFTER the invasion (and it was only the one that isn't yet completed, the first one is open).
You asked ne specifically what I would have done and I told you. I am not going to argue with you over my opinion which you asked for.
The pipeline was completed already, Germany voted a no on letting it flow.
Sanctions were in place before this invasion that started last night...
Do you know why the pipeline you are referring to is called Nord Stream 2?
Because there is one before it.
Biden lifted some sanctions in May 2021.
The Nord Stream 2 pipeline's first line wasn't finished until June 2021, and the second line wasn't finished until September 2021, so your claim that they were finished is simply fictional.
I think we should shut them BOTH down--Nord Stream 1 AND 2.
If they were finished last year, yes they were finished...
Is it your contention the we have the ability to dictate to other countries where they get their gas, or whether or not they can use pipelines...
SMH
Yes, they were finished in 2021. Very good.
Trump had sanctions on the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. Prior to May of 2021. The pipeline was NOT finished at this time. Then Biden LIFTED sanctions, and the pipelines were completed.
Really, this is simple.
You asked for MY opinion.
Arguing against what you asked for and is solely my opinion is ludicrous and trolling.
And your opinion is nothing more than what has already happened.
Biden stopped sanctions on a pipeline that had nothing to do with our country.
Do you think they stopped building the pipeline with trump sanctions?
I have tried to be patient with you. How many times and in what other ways must I say "I am not going to argue my opinion with you" in order for it to be recognized?
And my opinion is your opinion is nothing that hasn't been tried.
Okay Ukraine, its up to you guys. NATO will be more than happy to support you, but you all need to bring the fight and make the Russians hurt.
Biden has Ukrainian blood on his hands. Sleepy Joe needs to go.
I remember way back when I opposed the US invading a country that did nothing to the US and I was called a traitor for supporting terrorist (except no terrorist came from that particular country). Now those same people are cheering on Putin and saying it's Biden's fault, while at the same time saying we have no dog in this fight stay out of it. The contradictions make no sense, but hey they don't fucking care as long as they make a couple of points in the next election. Sad... bigly.
Lol .... feel free to show us who is doing that and how they are doing it. Be specific please and by the way. China doesn’t count.
There was a whole article here on it yesterday. I think you posted in it.
Strike one, strike two but link please ..... I’ll wait.
The seed:
I see you didn't post on it. My bad.
Thats not proof. The fact that you consider that “cheering on” says it all. You are allowing your chronic TDS to negatively affect your ability to properly reason.
GAWD ...... this TDS thing is just getting worse and worse.....
They voted him out
They banned him from Twitter
They banned him from facebook.
But here we are two years later and they can't seem to get them out of their heads. There is a song in there somewhere.
He still lives .....100% rent free ..... in their heads.
If it wasn’t so sad, it would be hilarious.
No, we're not cheering on Putin or his actions. This has been planned for some time, and we powerless to stop it. What dog do we have in this European territorial dispute? Would like to see us in a shooting war with Russia?
We're not, we choose not to.
Besides the treaties and trade agreements we've signed with those other NATO countries? Only the power of our own political and economical influence. If you think inflation is bad now, how much worse would it be if the world stopped using the US dollar value started to plummet?
I think if every NATO country including the US had put their tanks on the Ukraine boarder opposite those Russian tanks, Putin would have backed down a long time ago. Now we'll play chicken until one of those NATO boarder countries finds an excuse to start shooting.
nothing to the US and I was called a traitor fo
and now those people who felt persecuted for attacking George bush are calling anyone who criticizes Biden or his policies traitors.
Who is cheering on Putin?
Lets see a by name list of these people with exactly where any of them are cheering Putin.
yes, this is Biden's fault. If he weren't such a weak fuck up we or anybody else wouldn't be having this conversation. FFS the man can barely string a comprehendible sentence together. That alone should have been your warning. But, hey, at least you don't have any more mean tweets.
We don't have a dog in this fight and should stay out of it. Just like I stated when Obama and Biden sent US Soldiers back to Iraq with the addition of Syria to the Area of Operations.
Another Democrat in the White House?
It’s once again time for Putin to play.
Meanwhile the left fiddles and gaslights with their heads up their collective ass.
Next up .... China takes Taiwan as we inch closer and closer to Armageddon under Biden’s feckless leadership.
Keep your powder dry people. There’s a good chance this shit is going to spill over on all of us.
So what "the left" be doing? Be specific.
It already has. The military has been moving troops and equipment all over Europe AND the Pacific. How long before one of the boarding NATO countries finds an excuse to start shooting?
I’m sure this is waste of my time with you but I’ll give it one go.
Specifically, see 8.1 above. No one is “cheering on” Putin except our enemies. Still waiting for you to prove that they are
only because of Biden’s feckless and completely anemic foreign policy. SODDD for Biden. He’s been consistently wrong on foreign policy for most of his 50 year political career.
It is if you continue to make unsupported claims yourself.
Lol .... keep gaslighting .... it’s about all you got
If a former PotUS deems Putin's moves on the Ukraine as 'genius' would you consider that to be praise or rebuke?
Neither but knowing Trumps mentality it wasn’t meant as support but rather a simple business minded comment. A reminder .... he isn’t POTUS right now.
Not as bad as a sitting president mentioning that a minor incursion may not cause added sanctions thats for sure.
Do you recognize the political / diplomatic significance of a former PotUS describing a (then pending) invasion of the Ukraine by Russia as " genius "?
It does not matter what Trump was thinking or what he meant. He just publicly —on the world stage— provided Putin a gift that will help Putin justify his move and rally political support within Russia and with its allies.
Do you recognize this?
I’m not defending what Trump said but I also don’t characterize it with same vitriol you do. His comments don’t say he supports Putins actions in Ukraine. Not in the least.
So I guess Biden was giving Putin aid and comfort when he characterized him as a worthy adversary. Also when he inferred minor incursions might be acceptable. I love how you just gloss over what sitting our current president has said that gave Putin “aid and comfort” as you put it.
SOSDD ..... you hammer on Trump and give Biden a total pass for doing as bad or worse. And you can’t see it ..... amazing.
Vitriol? This is fact:
Do you not recognize the value to Putin of Trump's comments?
'Worthy adversary' was part of diplomacy. Biden was being complimentary (as opposed to being a gratuitous asshole) while establishing diplomatic relationships with another world leader . That is what one would expect.
And on the 'minor excursions':
Biden was noting that the USA response depends upon the level of Putin's aggression. You have a problem with responding based on the specifics of a situation?
You are attempting (yet again ... while simultaneously denying it) to defend Trump's inexcusable choice to, in the face of an invasion, tell the world that he (a former PotUS) thinks that invading Ukraine is a genius move on Putin's part. Biden has not said anything that even hints at approval of Putin's aggression.
Pathetic. What does Trump have to do before you stop defending him?
lol .... I’m sure you do believe your opinion is fact. That a big part of the problem
Do you not recognize the value of Biden’s comments to Putin?
I see .... I think folks getting caught in those “minor incursions” might disagree with you and comrade Biden.
Lol your interpretation of Trumps comment is the really fucked up thing here. Had he really meant it the way you took it, I would have agreed with you but since he clearly didn’t, it’s a moot point. Your allusions that I have somehow supported your crazy interpretation of Trumps comment, is the usual crazy nonsense we see coming from the TDS afflicted. That said, I’m surprised it took you this long to resort to your usual sophomoric insulting debate tactics.
Talk about pathetic .... there it is.
You do not comprehend that it is a fact that Trump just publicly —on the world stage— provided Putin a gift that will help Putin justify his move and rally political support within Russia and with its allies??
Always with the strawman. I stated that Trump's intended meaning was irrelevant. Here, read:
That means that I am not interpreting Trump's intent but rather commenting on the effect of his words.
Hello?
The Russian TV is replaying these Republicans such as Trump, Tucker Carlson et al...
Yet people blame President Biden for being weak when Putin has had strong/overwhelming republican/gop/#45 support. Deplorable.
A poster right here on NT, a supporter, has stated that Putin listens when what's his name speaks
Partisans will blame the opposing PotUS for anything; facts, reason and truth are irrelevant.
Huh?
'Our' politicians are 'expected' to lie / it is 'accepted' when they lie. 'we' voted for what is considered the lesser of 2 evils for president and 'our' representatives in government - certainly has nothing to do with partisans regarding the irrelevance of fact, reason and truth in America. (just ask the so call American free press)
Biden has been an idiot since taking office .. especially regarding Putin .. the president (who shall remain nameless) before him was a fucking idiot in office as well and so on and so forth ... had the US not been so busy violating international law of a sovereign nation in 2008, perhaps more would have been done to stop Putin .. or perhaps in 2014 if once again the United States was not so busy violating international law of a sovereign nation more would have been done to have stopped Putin laying claim to Crimea and the Black Sea port .. sanctions are a joke / the hypocrisy is thick .. 'we' are buying oil from Russia, if Putin himself is sanctioned that would have to stop .. just like back in 2014, the sanctions could not affect what 'we' bought from Russia.
Simple truth is 'we' have no business in Ukraine ,, if Ukraine was anything more than a bankrupt country the EU would have made them a member state in 2014 .. the talk of NATO now making them a member state is meant to be nothing more than a poke with a sharp stick at the bear that is Putin.
Where is a man like George HW Bush when we need him .. bomb the shit out of the Russian forces to send them packing or shut the fuck up and sit back and watch what happens just like 'we' did with the plight of the Syrian people .. did not seem to care much about the genocide and mass exodus that took place there .. my oldest son tells me that the only reason 'Americans' are so up in arms over Ukraine is because the people are white .. I hate to believe that is true - but 'we' certainly washed our hands of the people of the so called ME...!
Thanks for letting me vent .. I will shut up now!
Peace
deleted
[deleted]
Has Tuckio Rose weighed in yet? Maybe he will send Putin a case of champagne and a box of cigars.
Ooooo! Condemnation! That’ll have a big impact for sure.
I’m not saying anyone can or should do something specific about Ukraine and Russia, but let’s not pretend that condemnation (or sanctions, for that matter) mean a fucking thing. The international community is helpless to respond to this in a meaningful way.
Your comment reflects history correctly. I would use feckless rather than helpless. They have power, they just do not have the will to use it effectively.
100% agreement...
So the message to Ukraine is "good luck, we'll send pillows" and just like in 2014 we'll levy some sanctions (but not on Putin, of course) and that will be the end of the independent Ukraine. In a couple of months, it will be all be back to normal. Putin's lucky to have such a great friend in Germany.
and your alternative?