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Opinion | I Might Have Once Favored a Cease-Fire With Hamas, but Not Now - The New York Times

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  perrie-halpern  •  8 months ago  •  576 comments

By:   President Emmanuel Macron (nytimes)

Opinion | I Might Have Once Favored a Cease-Fire With Hamas, but Not Now - The New York Times
Today it is clear to me that Hamas's power and ability to threaten Israel — and subject Gazan civilians to ever more rounds of violence — must end.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Please note: I made a green quick read for those who want a quick read.

In the past, I might have favored a cease-fire with Hamas during a conflict with Israel. But today it is clear to me that peace is not going to be possible now or in the future as long as Hamas remains intact and in control of Gaza. Hamas's power and ability to threaten Israel — and subject Gazan civilians to ever more rounds of violence — must end.

After Oct. 7, there are many Israelis who believe their survival as a state is at stake. That may sound like an exaggeration, but to them, it's not. If Hamas persists as a military force and is still running Gaza after this war is over, it will attack Israel again. And whether or not Hezbollah opens a true second front from Lebanon during this conflict, it, too, will attack Israel in the future. The aim of these groups, both of which are backed by Iran, is to make Israel unlivable and drive Israelis to leave: While Iran has denied involvement in the Hamas attack, Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme leader, has long talked about Israel not surviving for another 25 years, and his strategy has been to use these militant proxies to achieve that goal.

Given the strength of Israel's military — by far the most powerful in the region — the aims of Iran and its collaborators seemed implausible until a few weeks ago. But the events of Oct. 7 changed everything. As one commander in the Israeli military said, "If we do not defeat Hamas, we cannot survive here."

Israel is not alone in believing it must defeat Hamas. Over the past two weeks, when I talked to Arab officials throughout the region whom I have long known, every single one told me that Hamas must be destroyed in Gaza. They made clear that if Hamas is perceived as winning, it will validate the group's ideology of rejection, give leverage and momentum to Iran and its collaborators and put their own governments on the defensive.

But they said this in private. Their public postures have been quite different. Only a few Arab states openly condemned the Hamas massacre of more than 1,400 people in Israel. Why? Because Arab leaders understood that as Israel retaliated and Palestinian casualties and suffering grew, their own citizens would be outraged and they needed to be seen as standing up for the Palestinians, at least rhetorically.

Nowhere was the instinct to cater to the mood of the street more vividly revealed than in the quick denunciations of Israel after Hamas claimed that Israel bombed Al-Ahli hospital in Gaza. Israel has denied hitting the hospital but in several Arab countries, Hamas's claims were accepted. At this point, multiple national intelligence agencies have said it was most likely a Palestinian rocket that hit the hospital.

Nevertheless, people across the region — and the world — saw Israel bombing Gaza and were ready to believe this, too, was deliberately done. Even the United Arab Emirates, which had condemned the Hamas attack, issued a later statement condemning "the Israeli attack that targeted Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in the Gaza Strip, resulting in the death and injury of hundreds of people." It went on to call on "the international community to intensify efforts to reach an immediate cease-fire to prevent further loss of life."

As Israel's aerial bombardment of Gaza picks up in pace and civilian casualties rise, international calls for an immediate cease-fire are mounting. Some are calling for Israel to call off a ground invasion. But ending the war now would mean Hamas would win. At present, its military infrastructure still exists, its leadership remains largely intact, and its political control of Gaza is unchallenged. As Hamas did after conflicts with Israel in 2009, 2012, 2014 and 2021, the group will almost certainly rearm and restore. It will be able to add to its system of tunnels running under the enclave. The strip will remain impoverished, and the next round of war will be inevitable, holding both Gazan civilians and much of the rest of the Middle East hostage to Hamas's aims.

An Israeli ground campaign would come at an extremely high cost. If it proceeds, invading Israeli soldiers will surely lose their lives, and there will be even more Palestinian casualties, a tragedy Hamas has ensured by embedding itself and its military capability in communities, using hospitals, mosques and schools to store its ammunition. But defeating Hamas cannot be done only with strategic strikes from the air, any more than we were able to root out ISIS in Mosul, Iraq, or Raqqa, Syria, from the air. In that fight, the United States had local partners who did the terrible and costly ground fighting in cities while our forces largely devastated them from above.

What would a defeat of Hamas mean? It would mean its military infrastructure, much of which is physically connected to civilian infrastructure, was largely destroyed and its leadership decimated, leaving the group without the capacity to block a reconstruction for demilitarization formula for Gaza, as it did in the past. In essence, this would mean there would be no war-making capacity in Gaza and that capacity could not be rebuilt.

That formula must guide the day-after reality in Gaza. It would require Israel to remain in Gaza after the fighting ends until it could hand over to some kind of an interim administration to prevent a vacuum and begin the enormous task of reconstruction. That administration should be largely run by Palestinian technocrats — from Gaza, the West Bank or the diaspora — under an international umbrella, which would include Arab and non-Arab nations. The United States would need to mobilize and organize the effort, possibly using an umbrella like the United Nations or the Ad Hoc Liaison Committee donor group to the Palestinians or even acting on the proposal by President Emmanuel Macron of France to use the international anti-ISIS coalition to counter Hamas. Such a coalition could help create the division of labor that would be necessary.

For example, Morocco, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain could provide police — not military forces — to ensure security for the new civil administration and those responsible for reconstruction. Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E and Qatar could provide the bulk of the funding for reconstruction, explaining their roles as necessary to relieve the suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza and help them recover. Canada and others could provide monitoring mechanisms to ensure that assistance would go to its intended purposes.

Of course, the mood in Gaza after the fighting is over will be grim and angry. Thousands of civilians have been killed, according to the Hamas-run Gazan Health Ministry. Vast swaths of the enclave are uninhabitable. But it is worth noting that polls taken not long before the Oct. 7 attack revealed that 62 percent of Gazans were against Hamas breaking the cease-fire at the time with Israel. Getting aid into Gaza quickly and starting the reconstruction effort as soon as the fighting stops could help show residents that life can get better when Hamas is no longer preventing the rebuilding of Gaza.

How Israel would conduct a ground campaign would affect all of this and even whether such a day-after reality could materialize. For Israel to reduce the pressure from its neighbors and the international community to stop its attack, it must demonstrate more convincingly that it is fighting Hamas and is not trying to punish Palestinian civilians. It must create safe corridors for humanitarian assistance, including from Israeli territory through the Kerem Shalom crossing point. To alleviate the suffering, it should allow international groups, such as Doctors Without Borders, to operate safely there and include Israeli doctors who can set up field hospitals — something they have experience doing in Syria and Ukraine.

Israel's political leaders need to clearly and publicly emphasize they will leave Gaza and lift the siege after Hamas has been militarily defeated and largely disarmed. They must communicate that they understand a political resolution is needed with the Palestinians more generally. That is not a message Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is now conveying, given the shock in Israel and the makeup of his government. But it is one Israel's partners in the region need to hear — and soon.

There are no easy solutions to Gaza, but there is only one path forward in this war. An outcome that leaves Hamas in control will doom not just Gaza but also much of the rest of the Middle East.

Dennis Ross is a former U.S. envoy to the Middle East. He is now the counselor at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and teaches at Georgetown University.

The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We'd like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here's our email: letters@nytimes.com.


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Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.    8 months ago

This article is by someone who understands and knows the situation in the Middle East. It is worth reading.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
1.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1    8 months ago

Historically, Hamas in the past has broken every cease fire with Israel they have ever agreed to. The only reason Hamas agrees to cease fires is to allow them to regroup and rearm for the next series of attacks. Hamas has had zero interest in peace with Israel. Hamas version of peace is one without the existence of Israel and Jews in the world. Terrorist savages like Hamas simply cannot be trusted to keep their word.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1    8 months ago

As all of my comments on this topic have already indicated, I am 100% in agreement with every word, every sentence, every point made in that article.  Yes, there will be collateral damage, yes there will be attempts to bring about a cease fire, yes there will be world wide demonstrations and protests favouring Hamas, yes it will kindle more than the usual everyday antisemitism and yes it will rouse the weak-minded to favour the "underdog" even though the "underdog" had to have known that their barbaric slaughter of Israelis would provoke the bleeding hearts into FURTHER despising Israel and the Jews.  DON"T STOP THE INVASION ISRAEL, until you have cut off the head to tail of Hamas, just like Hamas cut off the heads of Israeli babies and children on October 7.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3  CB  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1    8 months ago

Perrie, I found and have now completed reading the article you shared with in another article (locked now):

Very interesting. 

Excerpt: 

While the blockade has left Gaza’s roughly 2 million people scraping by with what little food and water they scrounge up, it does not yet appear to have begun to degrade Hamas’ ability to fight. The group has launched hundreds of rockets at Israel since the blockade began and have fended off preliminary Israeli incursions into the enclave.

The supply situation speaks to the relative sophistication of Hamas as a fighting force; an axiom among military professionals is that while amateurs talk about tactics, professionals talk about logistics. Yet with Palestinians facing a humanitarian catastrophe, Hamas’ stockpiles raise questions about what responsibility, if any, it has to the civilian population.

History abounds of well-supplied armies fighting on the front lines while the homefront went hungry. Germans, for instance, endured what became known as the “Turnip Winter” at the height of World War I, even as the Kaiser’s armies were well provisioned. They eventually lost, and the German Empire fell.

I have a Palestinian friend (whom I did not even know he was Palestinian until just before this occurred and we were talking about something other)  I will get a 'word' from on this. 

Thank you for sharing. 

To be clear, Hamas committed a grave crime in Israel by going after civilians. Full stop. But these civilian casualties rising in the inverse even before IDF ground forces do their 'work' is horrific and the world will not soon forget or forgive. Sorry to say, but it's true. It's true. I support going after Hamas, nevertheless. 

I make a sharp distinction between Hamas and Palestinian rank and file civilians. I, we, have to be consistent about this.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.3.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @1.3    8 months ago
I support going after Hamas, nevertheless. 

How can the IDF do that without risking civilian casualties?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.2  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.1    8 months ago

How did the U.S. go after the Taliban and the leader of Iraq (Hussein) without deliberately 'smoking' civilians? Consider their "best practices."  In addition, drop leaflets on the populace asking civilians to turn in Hamas members (a 'Win-win'). Package and air-drop laser pointers with directions to use them to point out Hamas quarters and spaces for destruction. Be creative. Save lives. Civilian lives matter.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.3.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @1.3.2    8 months ago

No one knows how many civilians have died in Iraq after our 2003 invasion.  At least 280,771 have died from direct war related violence caused by the U.S. and our allies .

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.4  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.3    8 months ago

I know civilians have died, 'dude.' That is not the point unless you are implying or asserting the U.S. killed 280,771 "direct war" civilians DELIBERATELY.  Is that your assertion? 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.3.5  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @1.3.4    8 months ago
That is not the point

What is your point, dude?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
1.3.6  Krishna  replied to  CB @1.3    8 months ago
To be clear, Hamas committed a grave crime in Israel by going after civilians.

And believe it or not merely "going after civilians" is not the worst of it. I'd been reading a lot of articles that gave more information. Instead of intellectually analyzing the nuances of how Israel should respond, and what does "proportionate response" mean, IMO I've haven't seen much coverage of what really happened. 

So I found an excellent article and just seeded it. (Among other things, if you were wondering why after the attack Israel became so adamant about totally eliminating Hamas (instead of just eliminating a few of their leaders and retreating)--I think this article will help us all have a better understanding of what actually transpired during Hamas' attack

Hamas Senior Official Storms Out Of BBC Interview After Being Pressed On Civilian Carnage Inside Israel

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.3.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @1.3.6    8 months ago
"I think this article will help us all have a better understanding of what actually transpired during Hamas' attack"

From the articles and comments I've been reading on the issue, I think perhaps you should amend that statement to say "...will help MOST OF US have a better understanding...."

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.8  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.5    8 months ago

Bs. I asked you a question: 

 That is not the point unless you are implying or asserting the U.S. killed 280,771 "direct war" civilians DELIBERATELY.  Is that your assertion

And true to form, you responded with a question! Not long from now you will be saying that I don't answer questions—do you?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.9  CB  replied to  Krishna @1.3.6    8 months ago

I will read it on Wednesday sometime. It's too late in the night now for me to do so. BTW, why do you keep implying that I give a damn about Hamas? Throughout my time on this subject matter I have been clearer than you about caring about civilians on both sides of the issue.

Why is this not being received by you and some others here? Are my comments being screened before they reach you and some others here?  /s

For the record, this is a complex enough set of issues in the ME and it has the whole world in a 'state' of some kind. And so yes, I want to know the damn truth about what goes on in Palestine and Israel and I will learn this by asking questions and getting answers about matters I don't understand and that are not explicitly clear. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.3.10  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @1.3.8    8 months ago

No, I didn’t imply that we killed 280,772 Iraqi civilians deliberately, why would you think that?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.3.11  JohnRussell  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.5    8 months ago

People have been wondering that about you since you came here. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.3.12  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @1.3.11    8 months ago
I hope to continue earning your wondering astonishment as you read me here.  Keep maintaining that healthy curiosity as you age.
 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
1.3.13  charger 383  replied to  JohnRussell @1.3.11    8 months ago

Comment was replied to by member it was addressed to so it will stand, charger

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1.3.14  JohnRussell  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.12    8 months ago
astonishment

is not an applicable word

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
1.3.15  George  replied to  charger 383 @1.3.13    8 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
1.3.16  Right Down the Center  replied to  JohnRussell @1.3.11    8 months ago
People have been wondering

What people?  Are we talking hundreds or just 3 or 4?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
1.3.17  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  George @1.3.15    8 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.3.18  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @1.3.14    8 months ago

Please don't lose that childlike curiosity, it's one of your best qualities.  

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
1.3.19  George  replied to  George @1.3.15    8 months ago

deleted

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.20  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.10    8 months ago

I n response to me; WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS:

1.3.3    Drinker of the Wry    replied to    CB   @ 1.3.2       17 hours ago

No one knows how many civilians have died in Iraq after our 2003 invasion.  At least 280,771 have died from direct war related violence caused by the U.S. and our allies .

  like.png?skin=ntNewsTalkers3&v=1613695469   1  
    1.3.3 ', 'Drinker of the Wry', 'drinker-of-the-wry')"> REPLY         
Please be explicit in your answer, because you later wrote that you did not mean to imply that these were deliberate killings of civilians. So what is the point of writing the above?
 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
1.3.21  George  replied to  George @1.3.19    8 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.3.22  Texan1211  replied to  CB @1.3.20    8 months ago

Perhaps he is merely pointing out that in war, civilians often die, and sometimes in great numbers. That's the nature of war.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.23  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @1.3.22    8 months ago

Why are civilians dying? Is it a 'given'? With superior firepower and technology are defense departments yet unable to do better than 'willy-nilly' firing? And, that is so easy to state about people in remote parts of the world, but for these civilians it is near and they have no where to run . . .as Richard Engel, in the Middle East recently to his viewers, being told to go south looking to enter an established "safe zone" has not proven to be effectively safe as bombing and shooting are occurring in the southern region too. 

I hope we can discuss serious matters with an eye to understanding each other and not just being pitted against each other this November. If not, then we may have to just cease trying for another month. Let's see how it goes. :)

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.3.24  Texan1211  replied to  CB @1.3.23    8 months ago

today's weapons, while highly sophisticated, are not the weapons of video games and are not as precise as to exclude collateral damage.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
1.3.25  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Texan1211 @1.3.22    8 months ago

Having survived two of them myself, as the saying goes, war is in fact Hell. Any war is to both the combatants and the innocent civilians alike. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.3.26  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @1.3.20    8 months ago

To answer your question.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
1.3.27  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.5    8 months ago
What is your point, dude?

Where did all these "dudes" suddenly come from?

Its beginning to feel a lot like the proverbial "Spaghetti Western"!

(Or is it actually an "eponymous" Western of some sort.?)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
1.3.28  Krishna  replied to  CB @1.3.23    8 months ago
Why are civilians dying? Is it a 'given'?

Yes.

(In wartime its inevitable).

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.3.29  Texan1211  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @1.3.25    8 months ago

yes, it is. 

some folks like to think we have these magical weapons that can seek and kill ONLY the bad guys!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.30  CB  replied to  Krishna @1.3.6    8 months ago

I have no qualms with Israel dealing with Hamas. Full stop. Combatants face combatants. But, one side killing innocent men, women, and children with large, destructive weapons for just being 'around' is wrong. It is wrong when Hamas does it and it is wrong when Israel does it, in my opinion. There has to be a better wage. Either we are consistent with respect for life or its a "swiss-cheese-sized"  farce!

I read the article and showed the linked "X" video of the interview. Thank you!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.3.31  Texan1211  replied to  CB @1.3.30    8 months ago

you and others keep insisting there is another way, but never offer what that way actually is.

How should Israel protect its citizens best?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
1.3.32  charger 383  replied to  CB @1.3.30    8 months ago

But, it is because of Hamas they are there so the blame for casulties must go to Hamas only

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.33  CB  replied to  charger 383 @1.3.32    8 months ago

No, Charger. Hamas has no love for their fellow Palestinians (though I hear the Southern Border over there opened up slightly today and that is good), so it is up to others to "grant" compassion around the civilians who can't defend themselves against bombs, bullets, and shelling. If Hamas is the immature one in this, then it falls to Israel to be the Adult in this! 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.3.34  Texan1211  replied to  CB @1.3.33    8 months ago

What would you have Israel do to protect its citizens?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.35  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @1.3.31    8 months ago

I don't have to solve the Palestinian/Israelite civilian crises for these participants. I realize the complexity of the moment, nevertheless. I just want people who say they honor life to stand up for life and not just 'execute as though innocents is not being destroyed and ruined along with the infrastructure of Gaza!  I made some small "points" about things that could lead this in a different direction at 1.3.2.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
1.3.36  charger 383  replied to  CB @1.3.33    8 months ago

Hamas rules Gaza and uses civilians for it's protection and they started this, it is not Israel's fault how Hamas fights, and that is one of the reasons Hamas must be totally destroyed and an example made of them to warn other groups to behave or be destroyed. 

Israel's job is to win the war, destroy Hamas completly and protect Israeli soilders during the war.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.3.37  Texan1211  replied to  CB @1.3.35    8 months ago
I don't have to solve the Palestinian/Israelite civilian crises for these participants.

I didn't ask you to solve anything.

I just figured as much as you have criticized Israel in how it has handled its response to the terrorist attack, you might actually have some idea of what you would like them to do since you seem pretty clear on what you don't want them to do.

 I realize the complexity of the moment, nevertheless. 

I don't think so. Your comments lead me to believe you don't grasp the predicament that terrorists have put Israel in, or that you particularly care about the citizens of Israel.

I just want people who say they honor life to stand up for life and not just 'execute as though innocents is not being destroyed and ruined along with the infrastructure of Gaza!  

I truly believe that every single person who has commented here realizes and cares about innocent lives lost. Many of us who recognize that also realize the futility of dealing with terrorists who imbed themselves among the populace.

Palestinians must take some responsibility for their fate.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
1.3.38  Krishna  replied to  CB @1.3.2    8 months ago
drop leaflets on the populace asking civilians to turn in Hamas members (a 'Win-win')

OK, I'll bite.

Consider this possibility: At this point my guess is that the citizens of Gaza are, for the most part, not particularly fond of Israelis. So why should they follow Israeli instructions?

(Asking for a friend)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.39  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.26    8 months ago

Did it answer the question? Because I seem to remember asking you what it is you are asserting at 1.3.20 and it's still an open question.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.40  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @1.3.37    8 months ago

I have supported Israel and will continue to do so. And I most definitely and consistently will defend the lives of innocent people who are dying or have the potential to die during this war. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.41  CB  replied to  Krishna @1.3.38    8 months ago

War makes strange bedfellows, eh? Isn't it obvious that if an overwhelming force used its discipline to keep Gazans out of the firing zones (that is Gazans don't have to pick up weapons against Israel) that it can engender "good-will" among the Gazans who have their families, friends, lives, industries caught up in this?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.3.42  Texan1211  replied to  CB @1.3.40    8 months ago
I have supported Israel and will continue to do so. And I most definitely and consistently will defend the lives of innocent people who are dying or have the potential to die during this war. 

You keep demanding no civilian deaths, and I (along with others) keep telling you that it is impossible considering the tactics of the terrorists.

Your 'solution' will result in Israeli civilian deaths on purpose.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.43  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @1.3.42    8 months ago

Okay, which "solution" of mine are you referring to, as it's been an extended day. Mine refreshing me what I wrote that will get Israelite civilians killed?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.3.44  Texan1211  replied to  CB @1.3.43    8 months ago
Okay, which "solution" of mine are you referring to, as it's been an extended day. Mine refreshing me what I wrote that will get Israelite civilians killed?

Not at all.

Your attention has solely been on innocent Palestinians. Who work, sleep, eat, pray, and coexist with known terrorists.

Weapons aren't like video games, they are not so precise as to never hit a little off target or maybe the impact of the missile might be judged wrong due to the composition of the building targeted and effect civilians. 

Every day that Israel allows Hamas to exist is another day Hamas will fire rockets at Israelis--mostly aimed at civilians.  This isn't speculation, this is fact.

This is precisely why Israel urged Palestinians to leave and gave them time before they launched the ground invasion.

It isn't like Israel can just pull up somewhere and call out to Hamas to come fight them.

Personally, I would like to think Palestinians were smart enough to figure out that allowing yourself to be used as human shields for terrorists isn't too healthy and turn on Hamas themselves or by ratting them out to the IDF.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.45  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @1.3.44    8 months ago

You see to be accepting or comprehending that there are no truly good options for Palestinians in this set of events and circumstances. I agree. So, then, we look for the second best ALTERNATIVE. Richard Engel recently reported that several cities close to Gaza's southern border  (including RAFAH?) has been at times under bombardment as well by the IDF. So 'sheltering' in the South of Gaza is not a sure thing for surviving this war.

It has been stated that war is not easy, it's deadly serious.  And, I agree. The U.S. under a republican president, George W. Bush, used light-infantry forces to enter the country during the second Iraq war, because of speed, efficiency, and having "prep" the natives for their "insertion" into the country. Thus, the "immune response" from the natives living in those entry spaces for U.S. troops was muted. 

Consequently, the lesson learned is one can blunt the reaction to ground force entry if one can prepare the people and inform them that their very lives depend on them understanding that a distinction has been made by "higher ups" to leave commoners unaffected as long at they remain unarmed. That is, their lives, their survival, is not on the line simply because a force is after their so-called, "leaders."

That could the defined "operation": Focus on the terrorists. Save the Innocent. Leave the (unarmed and defenseless) sick/lame/infirm/men, women, children out of the WAR.

Then, as relates to Israel, the "messaging" war becomes more to Israel's liking the world over. Keep blowing up civilians and it is highly probable that Israel will have a new generation of terrorists. . .starting with the WOUNDED children who are too small and injured by bomb blasts and gunfire but live to grow up with their scars and memories of being attacked and who did it to them. And, of course, the disaffected!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.3.46  Texan1211  replied to  CB @1.3.45    8 months ago

I don't think you'll ever get any of my points.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.47  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @1.3.46    8 months ago

Oh, I can get your points if I have not already, likewise you can get mine too. We just have to 'meld' out points together into something that makes sense for the war and the civilians forced to be a part of it. :)  That is, somebody has got to be the voice of the victims of war, and they are millions of innocent people who are UNARMED/DETACHED/INJURED/DYING.  The world will mourn them and remember who did it to them. I suggest Israel's singular focus on terrorists not be their own undoing. . . trusting that history won't remember cruelty in a different form is still cruelty.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.3.48  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @1.3.45    8 months ago
The U.S. under a republican president, George W. Bush, used light-infantry forces to enter the country during the second Iraq war, because of speed, efficiency, and having "prep" the natives for their "insertion" into the country. Thus, the "immune response" from the natives living in those entry spaces for U.S. troops was muted. 

The 2003 Iraq invasion ground forces order of battle:

  • 3rd ID (Mech)
  • 4th ID (Mech)
  • 101st AA (Air Assault)
  • 82nd AB
  • 1st UK Armoured
  • 1st Mar Div
  • 17th FA BDE
  • 41st FA BDE
  • 214 FA BDE
  • 130 ENG BDE
  • SOCOM

Doesn't look all that light to me, but a healthy mixture of light, medium and heavy forces.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.49  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.48    8 months ago

It was called the "Rumsfield Doctrine" and though controversial it seems to have helped in its own way.

The " Rumsfeld Doctrine ", named after former   United States Secretary of Defense   Donald Rumsfeld , is a phrase coined by journalists [1]   concerned with the perceived transformation of the   military of the United States . It would be considered Rumsfeld's own take on RMA ( Revolution in Military Affairs ). It seeks to increase force readiness and decrease the amount of supply required to maintain forces, by reducing the number in a theater. This is done mainly by using LAVs ( Light Armoured Vehicles ) to scout for enemies who are then destroyed via   airstrikes . The basic tenets of this military strategy are:
  • High-technology combat systems;
  • Reliance on air forces;
  • Small, nimble ground forces.

The early phases of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars are considered the two closest implementations of this doctrine.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.3.50  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @1.3.49    8 months ago
The early phases of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars are considered the two closest implementations of this doctrine.

Afghanistan yes, Iraq less so,

The air war preceded the ground war for 7 weeks.  Over 100,000 sorties were flown dropping 88,500 tons of bombs, destroying both military and civilian infrastructure and killing over 12,000.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.51  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @1.3.49    8 months ago

I've learned something today.

Thank you.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.3.52  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.51    8 months ago

“The U.S. under a republican president, George W. Bush, used light-infantry forces to enter the country during the second Iraq war, because of speed, efficiency, and having "prep" the natives for their "insertion" into the country. Thus, the "immune response" from the natives living in those entry spaces for U.S. troops was muted.”

Does that sound like “Shock and Awe” to you?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.53  Jack_TX  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.52    8 months ago
Does that sound like “Shock and Awe” to you?

I realize I'm probably missing enormous amounts of stuff here, but I don't even know what I don't know.  

So if you would, explain it like you might to someone with very little military knowledge... like a small child.... or a CNN journalist.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.54  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.50    8 months ago

Great. What's in dispute, again?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.55  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.51    8 months ago

No problem. You're welcome. I can still see Secretary Rumsfeld at his podium saying words like, "Nimble" about military crafts/ground forces. :)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.3.56  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @1.3.52    8 months ago

What is Your understanding of the "shock and awe" that took place in Iraq? 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
1.3.57  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Texan1211 @1.3.29    8 months ago

Nope. This is not Star Trek where we have sophisticated sensors that can locate things things and people  underground as well as on the surface.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
1.3.58  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Krishna @1.3.27    8 months ago

The dude abides.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.4  Vic Eldred  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1    8 months ago

It is very basic common sense. Copies need to be sent to Secretary of State Blinken and president Biden.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4.1  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.4    8 months ago

I think we're about to be given a textbook example of what should happen to a lying autocrat trying to alter the judicial process to keep from being prosecuted for corruption, while supported by radical religious sycophants in government.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.4.2  Vic Eldred  replied to  devangelical @1.4.1    8 months ago

Really?  Why did you vote up this article?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4.3  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.4.2    8 months ago

I support my friends. besides, it was easier than putting on a maga hat, buying a torch, and driving to march in charlottesville like an antisemite trumpster dipshit to prove a point...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.4.4  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @1.4.3    8 months ago

I'll take your word on it, not having any personal experience of my own with it.

How much easier was it for you?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.4.5  Vic Eldred  replied to  devangelical @1.4.3    8 months ago

But you aren't really a supporter of Israel, are you.

So why did you vote this article up?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4.6  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.4.5    8 months ago
But you aren't really a supporter of Israel, are you.

of course I am, although my mom's eastern european lineage runs a close second to the pasta spinners on my dad's side of the family. I ended up with an anglo saxon last name, so I told my kids we were scotch-irish and let them skip going to any bullshit religious madrasa.

So why did you vote this article up?

try reading the first 4 words of 1.4.3 out loud to yourself.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.4.7  Vic Eldred  replied to  devangelical @1.4.6    8 months ago
of course I am

Lol.


try reading the first 4 words of 1.4.3 out loud to yourself.

If you were truly a friend of hers, you wouldn't be trolling and taunting.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4.8  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.4.7    8 months ago
you wouldn't be trolling and taunting

an ignorant comment. your definitions of those 2 words are only shared by a handful here...

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
1.4.9  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.4.2    8 months ago

Obviously by mistake.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4.10  devangelical  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @1.4.9    8 months ago

pffft.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
2  Sparty On    8 months ago

Certainly Hamas must be dealt with.    Anyone who thinks otherwise is just being obtuse and/or disingenuous.    The real problem here in my opinion are the people who fund organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah.

Specifically, Iran.    That’s the head of this snake.  

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1  Krishna  replied to  Sparty On @2    8 months ago
 The real problem here in my opinion are the people who fund organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah. Specifically, Iran.    That’s the head of this snake.  

Yes. But eliminating Iran (or more accurately their present horrendous gov't) isn't easy. And probably not even possible at this time.

Eliminating Hamas won't be easy-- and their will many casualties on the side of those who try it.

But.

But it will be easier than overthrowing the government current Theocracy of Iran.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
2.1.1  Sparty On  replied to  Krishna @2.1    8 months ago

Like Palestine, Iran’s change must come from within.    The rest of the world can help expedite this process with sanctions etc.    

Releasing billions for them to use as they please, is not the answer.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.1.2  Krishna  replied to  Sparty On @2.1.1    8 months ago

  Iran’s change must come from within

They've been there, tried that:

Iranian Green Movement

Now there's the "Women, Life, Freedom" movement (Although it actually includes much more than Woman's Rights):

Mahsa Amini and Woman, Life and Freedom Movement in Iran awarded top EU human rights prize

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
2.2  Krishna  replied to  Sparty On @2    8 months ago
Specifically, Iran.    That’s the head of this snake.  

True. And not only that--IIRC Iran was recently appointed Head of The UN Committee of Human Rights!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2.2.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @2.2    8 months ago
 "Iran was recently appointed Head of The UN Committee of Human Rights!"

And I thought you were joking.  I looked it up.  Maybe not the head, but....

Iran's appointment to chair the 2023 UN Human Rights Council Social Forum

LINK ->

When I was 16 years old, and that was 70 years ago, I went with my parents to NYC where we saw a couple of wonderful original cast Broadway shows - Guys and Dolls, and The King and I.  While there I toured the United Nations building, watched the great V.K.Krishna Menon speak to the General Assembly, and I thought how wonderful an organization it was, after all, it created the State of Israel.  But then the UN became anti-Israel and is becoming more anti-Israel as time goes on, and as far as I'm concerned the whole building should be bulldozed into the adjoining river. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3  JohnRussell    8 months ago
An outcome that leaves Hamas in control will doom not just Gaza but also much of the rest of the Middle East.

I dont think too many people are hoping for an outcome that leaves Hamas in control. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @3    8 months ago

I thank that many would willingly trade of Hamas remaining in control for a cessation of hostilities tomorrow, even you.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1    8 months ago

I think there is probably a way to get Hamas out of power without killing tens of thousands of civilians. It would take time though. 

For the 100th time on this site, I hope the people who perpetrated the massacre are killed by the Israelis. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
3.1.2  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.1    8 months ago
I think there is probably a way to get Hamas out of power without killing tens of thousands of civilians. It would take time though. 

HOW??? The whole reason Hamas embedded themselves into the civilian population was to make it impossible to do so. It is brilliant in its horrible goal.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.2    8 months ago

Other countries in the Middle East have shown a willingness to work with the Israelis and the US.  I think that with a concerted effort it could have been made known to Hamas that your day is done, because of the Oct 7th massacre , and we will have to have authority in Gaza turned over to someone else, some sort of multinational force temporarily in charge. The individuals responsible for the massacre could be identified, tracked down , and given justice over a period of time. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.4  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.2    8 months ago

Yes, to Hamas, Gazans are only useful camouflage and body armor.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Quiet
3.1.5  Jasper2529  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.1    8 months ago
I hope the people who perpetrated the massacre are killed by the Israelis. 

I hope you're stipulating Iran in that statement, because it is the Islamic terrorist country of Iran that is one of the countries that funds the terrorism of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the IJ.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1.6  JohnRussell  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.4    8 months ago

You act like they are not even human beings, just a tool or appendage of Hamas. Israel has nuclear (as Trump might say), why not just turn the whole place into ashes ? 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.7  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.6    8 months ago
You act like they are not even human beings,

I’m very aware that they are human beings, humans that collectively have made bad decisions for decades.

Israel has nuclear (as Trump might say), why not just turn the whole place into ashes ? 

That truly would earn international condemnation and provide greater motivation for regional powers to obtain the same technology.  It also might be hard to keep the fallout from drifting across Israel or another country.  

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Quiet
3.1.8  Jasper2529  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.6    8 months ago
You act like they are not even human beings, just a tool or appendage of Hamas.

Judging by Hamas' actions toward Gazans, that's exactly what Gazans of all ages are ... human shields used as Hamas' body armor.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.1.9  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1    8 months ago

I thank that many would willingly trade of Hamas remaining in control for a cessation of hostilities tomorrow, even you.

WTF? That a contradiction in and of itself-- some kind of a moron (Probably an oxy-moron!). If Hamas remains in power you can't have a cessation of hostilities. The two are mutually exclusive. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.1.10  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.6    8 months ago
Israel has nuclear (as Trump might say), why not just turn the whole place into ashes ? 

Ad Iran probably still doesn't but it seems Iranis very close to having it. 

But here's something that at first might seem strange-- in all practicality-- neither Iran nor Israel could use nukes. (In some ways its like the situation of India vs Pakistan-- both of which have nukes).

Well, to complicate the matter. so does China (PRC)-- and they really won't use them against India either.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.11  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Krishna @3.1.9    8 months ago
If Hamas remains in power you can't have a cessation of hostilities.

There might be a temporary cessation to allow Hamas to rearm and resupply itself.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.12  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.3    8 months ago
I think that with a concerted effort it could have been made known to Hamas that your day is done, because of the Oct 7th massacre , and we will have to have authority in Gaza turned over to someone else, some sort of multinational force temporarily in charge.

I think the peace deal that Saudi was negotiating with Israel could have obtained similar concessions.  Iran and Hamas were desperate to keep that from happening, hence 7 Oct.  Now, even the most peace loving Israelis have turned their backs on the Palestinians like the neighboring Arab Countries and Egypt has.  

The Israeli attitude started turning hard core with the 2nd Intifada, with the suicide bombings of Israeli civilians and is culminating with the horror of 7 Oct.  They think you can fool me once and fool me twice, but no more.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.1.13  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.1    8 months ago
I think there is probably a way to get Hamas out of power without killing tens of thousands of civilians.

And just how would we go about that?

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
3.1.14  Right Down the Center  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.3    8 months ago
I think that with a concerted effort it could have been made known to Hamas that your day is done, because of the Oct 7th massacre , and we will have to have authority in Gaza turned over to someone else

I think according to the author that is not in the cards.  

"Over the past two weeks, when I talked to Arab officials throughout the region whom I have long known, every single one told me that Hamas must be destroyed in Gaza. They made clear that if Hamas is perceived as winning, it will validate the group's ideology of rejection, give leverage and momentum to Iran and its collaborators and put their own governments on the defensive.

But they said this in private. Their public postures have been quite different. Only a few Arab states openly condemned the Hamas massacre of more than 1,400 people in Israel. Why? Because Arab leaders understood that as Israel retaliated and Palestinian casualties and suffering grew, their own citizens would be outraged and they needed to be seen as standing up for the Palestinians, at least rhetorically."

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.15  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Krishna @3.1.13    8 months ago

Maybe we all could get them first to wear the Star and Crescent Moon ☪️ on their clothing.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
3.1.16  Right Down the Center  replied to  Krishna @3.1.13    8 months ago
And just how would we go about that?

s-l1600.jpg

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
3.1.17  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.3    8 months ago

To work with Israel and the US Hamas would have to repudiate their charter and abandon their "from the river to the sea" stance. Two things they are just totally unwilling to do in the foreseeable future.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.18  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.3    8 months ago

@ JohnRussell

There's no way your dream solution will work with those who have proven time and again that they will never stop with their crusade against Israel and the Jews.  

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.19  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Jasper2529 @3.1.8    8 months ago
"Judging by Hamas' actions toward Gazans, that's exactly what Gazans of all ages are ... human shields used as Hamas' body armor."

And if not willingly being such, they could have overcome Hamas no differently than the common people did in the French and Russian revolutions.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.20  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @3.1.13    8 months ago
"And just  how would we go about that? "

I'm glad I was able to open that link. It caused my first laugh out loud of the day.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.21  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Right Down the Center @3.1.14    8 months ago

@ Right Down the Center

I'm sorry I'm only able to vote up your comment just once.  I'm sure Hamas knew it would get the bleeding hearts activated.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
3.1.22  charger 383  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @3.1.17    8 months ago

From the river to the sea, make it Hamas free  

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
3.1.23  George  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.21    8 months ago

Hamas and their liberal supporters remind me of an old story about a young man who killed both of his parents and then demanded mercy from the court because he was an orphan.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1.24  JohnRussell  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @3.1.17    8 months ago

I'm not suggesting the US or Israel "work with" Hamas, I am suggesting that the US and Israel work with the regional countries that are open to working with Israel put pressure on Hamas. 

Everyone who dies in this war will have died in vain if 10 years from now these people , on both sides are doing the same things they've done over the past 75 years. It hasnt created lasting peace there and it never will. 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
3.1.25  charger 383  replied to  George @3.1.23    8 months ago

and there are those who would fall for that

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1.26  JohnRussell  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.18    8 months ago

So you want to kill every man woman and child in Gaza, is that it? 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.27  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.24    8 months ago
"It hasnt created lasting peace there and it never will." 

And your proposals will never work and the only thing that will is that Hamas be totally eradicated NOW by doing whatever it takes to do so.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.28  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.26    8 months ago
"So you want to kill every man woman and child in Gaza, is that it?" 

I did not say that - you don't need to put words into my mouth to support your bleeding heart comments..

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1.29  JohnRussell  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.28    8 months ago

You refuse to separate the status of civilians in Gaza from Hamas. If all of Hamas is to be killed (and Im sure that is the goal) then isnt it logical to conclude that all the other people in Gaza, indistinguishable from Hamas in sympathies, should die too? 

We have numerous people on this site strongly implying its ok if civilians die because they either voted for Hamas in an election or they failed to overthrow Hamas. 

Is this shit serious? 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.30  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.29    8 months ago
We have numerous people on this site strongly implying its ok if civilians die because they either voted for Hamas in an election or they failed to overthrow Hamas. 

Exactly, these children shouldn’t be held accountable for their immature actions.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.31  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.29    8 months ago

What I DID say in my first comment is this:

"As all of my comments on this topic have already indicated, I am 100% in agreement with every word, every sentence, every point made in that article."

What was said in that article is this:

"For Israel to reduce the pressure from its neighbors and the international community to stop its attack, it must demonstrate more convincingly that it is fighting Hamas and is not trying to punish Palestinian civilians. It must create safe corridors for humanitarian assistance, including from Israeli territory through the Kerem Shalom crossing point. To alleviate the suffering, it should allow international groups, such as Doctors Without Borders, to operate safely there and include Israeli doctors who can set up field hospitals — something they have experience doing in Syria and Ukraine."

Now DON'T make up what I DIDN'T say.  Your doing so is offensive and WAY out of line.  IMO your accusations are going beyond the line of what should be considered a contravention of the CoC.

 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1.32  JohnRussell  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.31    8 months ago
"Judging by Hamas' actions toward Gazans, that's exactly what Gazans of all ages are ... human shields used as Hamas' body armor."
And if not willingly being such, they could have overcome Hamas no differently than the common people did in the French and Russian revolutions.

What you have said , basically, its that its tough shit for the civilians because they didnt throw off Hamas in an election or by revolution.  That being used as "human shields" could have been prevented by them but it wasnt. 

So that justifies potentially tens of thousands of them dying? 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.1.33  Krishna  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @3.1.17    8 months ago
To work with Israel and the US Hamas would have to repudiate their charter and abandon their "from the river to the sea" stance. Two things they are just totally unwilling to do in the foreseeable future.

Many Arabs would be willing to work with Israel. Even many "Palestinians".

But anyone who's joined a terrorist organization would not. (Especially one whose goal is to exterminate all the Jews).

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.34  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.32    8 months ago
"So that justifies potentially tens of thousands of them dying?" 

Oh, now you changed your story, and you're walking back saying this to me:

"So you want to kill every man woman and child in Gaza, is that it?"

So I was right in what I accused you of.  You assumed the worst when I said this:

"But that is not the case-- they were elected by the so-called "Palestinians"-- and in a fair election!" Which is one of the reasons why the Israeli government and IDF should have little concern for what happens to the Gazan civilians - they bought it, so now they can live or die because of it as far as I'm concerned.  If the Gazans didn't want Hamas to stay in power, they could have revolted.  The French and the Russian people had the guts to do it.  Surely the civilians FAR outnumber the militants.

"...should have little concern for what happens to the Gazan civilians....they bought it, so now they can live or die because of it as far as I'm concerned."  Have you some kind of inside information that children in Gaza can vote? Or that they can take part in overthrowing their government?  Did I say they HAD to die?  I said they can "LIVE or die" did I not?  And I think I would probably kill myself or commit myself to an institution if I was CONCERNED about every person in the world I don't know, and so whether they live or die for a terrorist cause is if NO importance to me.  

I will flag the next comment you make that puts words in my mouth or that you try to twist to mean something other than what I mean.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
3.1.35  Drakkonis  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @3.1.2    8 months ago
HOW???

A pointless question to ask of John, I think. John doesn't care that much about people as individuals, in my estimation. It's the ideology that matters to him. We've got to push the ideology. Just look at his post of 3.1.3 . He may as well have said that if we just flood Gaza with Unicorns everything would just magically work out. In actuality, John uses the Palestinians the same way Hamas does. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
3.1.36  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.24    8 months ago
I'm not suggesting the US or Israel "work with" Hamas, I am suggesting that the US and Israel work with the regional countries that are open to working with Israel put pressure on Hamas. 

Um, I think the current plan of eliminating Hamas via lead poisoning does it better and faster. 

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
3.1.37  Drakkonis  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.29    8 months ago
You refuse to separate the status of civilians in Gaza from Hamas.

That would be correct, to an extent. The average German citizen bore responsibility for allowing the Nazis to come to power. Hamas is not the Foreign Legion. It isn't made up of foreigners. It is made up of Palestinians. 

C'mon, John! Are you not constantly puking over America because of our history and how we're all complicit in your imagined view of our racist society? How the hell can we be complicit in your fantasy view of our country but, somehow, Palestinians aren't for Hamas???

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
3.1.38  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.24    8 months ago

For some reason Albert Einstein's definition of insanity comes to mind.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.1.39  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.3    8 months ago
Other countries in the Middle East have shown a willingness to work with the Israelis and the US.

How likely do you think that will happen at this point? (Some of their rulers might be tempted to take that risk-- but they themselves are scared of the crazies in their own country-- "The Arab Street".

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.1.40  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.1    8 months ago
For the 100th time on this site, I hope the people who perpetrated the massacre are killed by the Israelis. 

Me too.

But realistically that won't change much.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.1.41  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.3    8 months ago
I think that with a concerted effort it could have been made known to Hamas that your day is done,

And just what sort of concerted effort would that be? (i.e. an effort that actually works).

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.42  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.6    8 months ago
why not just turn the whole place into ashes ? 

Are you freaking kidding??

Seems brilliant to me---set off a nuclear bomb right next to your own freaking country.

What could POSSIBLY go wrong there?!?!?!?!?!?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.2  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @3    8 months ago
I dont think too many people are hoping for an outcome that leaves Hamas in control. 

In case anyone is unaware of it-- there's a common misconception that should be cleared. many people assume that since Hamas is such a barbaric terror organization, they nust have seized power by an undemocratic military coup.

But that is not the case-- they were elected by the so-called "Palestinians"-- and in a fair election!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.2.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @3.2    8 months ago

But that is not the case-- they were elected by the so-called "Palestinians"-- and in a fair election!

How could that be-- only the most naive person would believe an election in an Arab country could actually be fair. But this one was.

Why-- because there were many international observers who closely monitored it and said so. (IIRC, ex-president Jimmy Carter was an observer..and said the election was fair.).

And from everything i've read from various sources-- it was fair. And Hamas won.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.2.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @3.2    8 months ago
"But that is not the case-- they were elected by the so-called "Palestinians"-- and in a fair election!"

Which is one of the reasons why the Israeli government and IDF should have little concern for what happens to the Gazan civilians - they bought it, so now they can live or die because of it as far as I'm concerned.  If the Gazans didn't want Hamas to stay in power, they could have revolted.  The French and the Russian people had the guts to do it.  Surely the civilians FAR outnumber the militants.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.2.3  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.2.2    8 months ago
f the Gazans didn't want Hamas to stay in power, they could have revolted.

Obviously. But much of the "politically correct" mainstream media doesn't like to mention that-- nor do some of the nmutcases demonstrating for a "Free" Palestine.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
3.2.4  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.2.2    8 months ago

Sewn the wind, reap the whirlwind.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.2.5  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.2.2    8 months ago
Which is one of the reasons why the Israeli government and IDF should have little concern for what happens to the Gazan civilians - they bought it, so now they can live or die because of it as far as I'm concerned.  If the Gazans didn't want Hamas to stay in power, they could have revolted.  The French and the Russian people had the guts to do it.  Surely the civilians FAR outnumber the militants

They don't have a tradition of overthrowing leaders.

Remember the Arab Spring (supposed to totally reform the Arab world). It had little effect (Has it significantly reformed any Arab country? I don't remember,

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.2.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @3.2.5    8 months ago
"They don't have a tradition of overthrowing leaders."

Neither did the French or the Russians or even the Americans against the British.  But when the disagreement with what one's government is doing, especially like using its civilians as human shields in other words sacrifice them as fodder, then normally traditions can fail and civilians may do what they can to stop it.  But if there IS agreement with what their government is doing, well, the people will just acquiesce, and might even cheer them on.  

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.3  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @3    8 months ago
I dont think too many people are hoping for an outcome that leaves Hamas in control.

It doesn't take "too many" to wreak havoc.

How many Arabs total were on the hijacked planes during 9/11? Look at what they accomplished.

Now google how many Arabs there are in the world. What percentage of the world's Arab population hijacked those airplane-- the % was certainly not "too many"

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.3.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @3.3    8 months ago

How many Arabs total were on the hijacked planes during 9/11? Look at what they accomplished.

Now google how many Arabs there are in the world. What percentage of the world's Arab population hijacked those airplane-- the % was certainly not "too many"

And many people refer to the attack on the World Trade Center, But " the attack"-- is misleading because it was actually the second attack. (But again, there weren't exactly  "too many" perps in that attack either):

7 Facts About the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing

The attack by a group of Islamic fundamentalists announced the growing threat of terrorism on US soil.

.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.3.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Krishna @3.3    8 months ago

Interesting to all so see with those billions of Muslims and the number of majority Muslim countries and their land masses.  Then compare that to the number of Jews and the size of Israel.  Apparently one little country, the size of New Jersey with  7.5 million Jews is one country too many for many Muslims.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.3.3  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.3.2    8 months ago
 Apparently one little country, the size of New Jersey with  7.5 million Jews is one country too many for many Muslims.

Apparently much of the Muslim world (as well as their "idiot utiles") believe that ISRAEL HAS TOO MUCH LAND! (Israel in red, Muslim countries in Green)

qRQ0MGv.gif

Image source:

Are they right?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.3.4  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Krishna @3.3.3    8 months ago

Thanks Krishna, a very telling graphic.  Too bad our geographically and historically uneducated don’t understand it.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.3.5  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.3.4    8 months ago

You're welcome!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.3.6  Trout Giggles  replied to  Krishna @3.3.3    8 months ago

You can barely see it

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
3.3.7  Krishna  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.3.6    8 months ago
You can barely see it

Incidentally (and admittedly this is a minor point)  I have seen many versions of that map. And because Israel is so small, its hard to see the outline of the country.

But that map has one minor inaccuracy: it actualy shows Israel to be larger than it is!!!

How could that be? Well it shows Gaza to be part of Israel, because the mapshows when Gaza was occupied by Israel!

So that land is no longer part of Israel as the occupation has ended and now Gaza is a self-governing , independent "Palestinian" country!

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Quiet
4  Jasper2529    8 months ago

There should be zero tolerance for a "humanitarian cease-fire" as is currently encouraged by the UN Security Council. IOW, remove Russia, China, and Iran (for starters).

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
4.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Jasper2529 @4    8 months ago

See post #1.1 above.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.2  Krishna  replied to  Jasper2529 @4    8 months ago

There should be  zero tolerance  for a "humanitarian cease-fire" as is currently encouraged by the UN Security Council. IOW, remove Russia, China, and Iran (for starters).

Excellent idea! (Now why didn't I think of that?) jrSmiley_26_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
4.2.1  cjcold  replied to  Krishna @4.2    8 months ago

WW3 anybody?

World wars have started over less reasons.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.2.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  cjcold @4.2.1    8 months ago

What’s you recommendation to prevent that?

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
4.2.3  cjcold  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.2.2    8 months ago
recommendation

I have none.

Smarter folk than I have been trying for decades.

Seems Iran and Putin want WW3.

They use proxies such as Hamas to start it.

Putin can't even win against Ukraine.

Iran has recently launched drone strikes on U.S..

Iran and Russia are both weak at this point.

Maybe it's time to slap them down.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.2.4  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  cjcold @4.2.3    8 months ago
Maybe it's time to slap them down.

I’m good with that.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
4.2.5  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.2.4    8 months ago

Same here.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.2.6  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.2.2    8 months ago
What’s you recommendation to prevent that?

The Abraham Accords wouldn't have totally guaranteed peace worldwide, but it would've gone a long way. An implementation was progressing. In fact I've seen videos  of Jews-- even Israelis-- in some of the Gulf states saying how safe it is there.

(Some said they felt safer there than they would in many countries in Europe!)

But Hamas' recent actions have put the Abraham Accords  on hold. (Some people have argued that that's why Hamas picked this time for their attack on Israel-- to halt progress on that).

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
4.2.7  Krishna  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.2.2    8 months ago
What’s you recommendation to prevent that?

Give all world leaders Magic Mushrooms or Peyote!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.8  CB  replied to  Krishna @4.2.7    8 months ago

Wow. Cheat shot. I guess it ain't as low as the lynch "queers" thread.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
4.2.9  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Krishna @4.2.6    8 months ago

"(...Hamas picked this time for their attack on Israel--to halt progress on that).

I think it's more like Iran picked the time rather than Hamas since Iran probably did most of the planning.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5  Kavika     8 months ago

Whatever Israel chooses to do there are going to be huge repercussions. If they continue to bomb Gaza and then follow with a ground attack the casualties will be huge on both sides and the civilians in the middle of them will die as well. From a recent poll that was posted here, there is 49% that want to hold off on the ground attack. No question as to what hold-off means. There is also a good number that do not want to attack at all...There will be consequences for Israel on simply attacking within Israel, let alone in Gaza and world opinion. If Israel does not attack and destroy Hamas they can expect more attacks. If they destroy Hamas who is going to govern Gaza? Israel doesn't want to they have been down that road, Egypt had the said experience and wants no part of Gaza. 

IMO, Israel is between a rock and a hard place. They will be damned if they do and damned if they don't and anything in between will be seen as weakness. 

Urban warfare is devastating and the KIA and WIA on both sides are going to be huge. And the world is going to see this and you can bet there will be massive demonstrations to stop the attack.

And Israel under the current situation has no choice but to attack and destroy Hamas since I do not believe that Hamas is open now or in the future to moderate the hate of Israel and try to reach a peaceful settlement it is, kill or be killed and the destruction of Isreal as a country and a people.

It is best to try to understand what this is going to be like in the real world, not Rambo world. Each of those 155mm howitzer shells that lands in Gaza or rocket that lands in Israel has the power that the concussion alone will blow out your ears and if your helmet is strapped it can rip your face off and that doesn't even be began to understand the wounds from shrapnel or from burns.  After this is over and the fighting is done there will be a number of Israeli soldiers that will need a whole lot of psychological help along with missing arms legs and TBI. The effects on the civilians will be even worse and even the Israeli citizens will be affected. The survivors will have two options they will hate the enemy for the rest of their lives and they will withdraw and try to forget it all, neither works well. The Palestinians will be the same with a whole new army of fanatics.

So, as always there will be no winners only those that have not lost as much.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Kavika @5    8 months ago

Israel has enough troops to have put a ring around Gaza letting only the basic necessities for the civilian population in.  They could have just "frozen" the situation and let time do its thing. I dont see what the big rush is, they could bottle up Hamas and make them irrelevant to Israels safety.  Now it seems likely the hostages will all die, and many thousands of civilians will die. I dont see why they couldnt put this offensive into Gaza on indefinite hold. Israel holds all the cards in terms of the future of Gaza. That would still be the case no matter when they went in. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.1  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1    8 months ago
Israel has enough troops to have put a ring around Gaza letting only the basic necessities for the civilian population in.

Correction: Israel and Egypt. (As I'm sure you're aware {?}, Gaza has borders with two countries).

So even if Israel was able to have an airtight blockade around Gaza, they wouldn't bear complete responsibility- if Egypt opened its border.

(But of course it's easier to put all the blame on Israel & ignore the fact that Egypt's border is closed.)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.2  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1    8 months ago
I dont see what the big rush is,

Apparently most Israelis don't either-- support for an instant ground invasion has plummeted in recent polls.

Asked if the military should immediately escalate to a large-scale ground offensive, 29% of Israelis agreed, 49% said "it would be better to wait"

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.3  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1    8 months ago

Israel holds all the cards in terms of the future of Gaza.

Do you think that would still be true if Hamas continues to hold power-- and keeps getting their rockets re=supplied by Iran?

And so far the clashes with Iran's proxy Hizb'Allah on Israel's Northern border have been relatively minor. What would happen if H. escalated and Israel was forced to send large numbers of North?

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
5.1.4  Right Down the Center  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1    8 months ago
Israel has enough troops to have put a ring around Gaza letting only the basic necessities for the civilian population in. 

You keep saying that but don't say how the aid would only go to civilian population.  Also it seems many of the people praising Hamas are doing so because Israel was limiting what aid was going into Gaza.  So it sounds like you are promoting more of the same ignoring what Einstein said about that.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.5  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1    8 months ago
Now it seems likely the hostages will all die, and many thousands of civilians will die

Not all. Yes, most. But not all:

Female Hostage Freed in ‘Daring’ Israeli Ground Operation

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.1.6  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1    8 months ago

Israel has enough troops to have put a ring around Gaza letting only the basic necessities for the civilian population in. 

But here's the problem. There's more than enough food, water, oil, etc already in Gaza. And also many very safe bomb shelters.

Getting more in isn't the problem. The problem is that someone (I won't mention names)  is deliberately keeping it away from the Gazans. Guess who?

(Hint: It ain't the Jews)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2  Krishna  replied to  Kavika @5    8 months ago
If they destroy Hamas who is going to govern Gaza?

I think many people are thinking if Hamas (the terrorist group) is destroyed than the Gazans will finally be free to form a new government-- which will be democratic and peace-loving. Which is quite an assumption.

I don't know what the answer is-- maybe UN forces could take over?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.2.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @5.2    8 months ago

A compromise would be for the Palestinian Authority to take over, as inept as it may be.  That way all the humanitarian donations being provided to the PA from its supporting nations around the world could increase their being used to re-arm its militants and fund the payments to the Palestinians who murder Jews and support the murderers in Israeli prisons and their families, and with the Gazans added, it could help the PA to increase the number of potential murderers.  Israel might have to import more bulldozers to tear down the homes of the families of the murderers. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.2.2  Kavika   replied to  Krishna @5.2    8 months ago
I don't know what the answer is-- maybe UN forces could take over?

Like Kosovo they have been there since 1999. 

I don't know, Krish. Although it might be a solution I can't think of a better one a the moment.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.3  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.2.1    8 months ago
A compromise would be for the Palestinian Authority to take over, as inept as it may be. 

Might be a good idea. One possible problem-- the two groups hate each other. If the PA took over, Hamas would murder them (Before applying the most gruesome of tortures first ) jrSmiley_5_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Quiet
5.2.4  Freewill  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.2.1    8 months ago
A compromise would be for the Palestinian Authority to take over, as inept as it may be. 

That might be the best solution as the PA and Fatah party are still governing in the West Bank, and many Palestinians feel that the one of the biggest setbacks for the Palestinian people was the split in power between Gaza and the West Bank.  Interesting article here about how Hamas came to power in place of Fatah in Gaza violently in 2007, after having won a primary legislature election in 2006 and forming their own Government.  

Hamas has been the de facto authority in Gaza since shortly after Israel withdrew from the territory in 2005. The following year, Hamas won a majority of seats in the PA's legislature and formed a government.

It earned votes for the social services it provided and as a rejection of the incumbent Fatah, which many voters perceived as having grown corrupt at the helm of the PLO and delivering little to Palestinians through its negotiations with Israel.

The outcome was unacceptable to Fatah and its Western backers, and the party ousted Hamas from power in the West Bank. In Gaza, Hamas routed Fatah's militias in a week of fighting, resulting in a political schism between the two Palestinian territories. Palestinians have not voted for a legislature since 2006, nor a president since 2008.

Such a transition could also be overseen by a UN coalition to ensure that the people of Gaza are properly supplied with necessary aid during and after the transition, monitor reconstruction efforts, and address the corruption that resulted in Gazans voting for a shit show like Hamas in the first place.

The scary part is how much support Hamas had, especially in Gaza, months before the Oct 7 attack.  It would be interesting to see what a similar poll might find now.

The political bifurcation of the West Bank and Gaza is widely unpopular: a June 2023 poll [PDF] by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) showed that one-third of Palestinians consider it the most damaging development for their people since the state of Israel's 1948 creation.
The same poll found that more than half of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank would vote for Hamas's Haniyeh over PA President Mahmoud Abbas in a presidential election, while just one-third of Palestinians would choose Abbas.

That is a problem that only exposure to more information (rather than constant Hamas and militant anti-Israel propaganda), and education can solve. Another way that assistance from a UN coalition could help.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.2.5  Krishna  replied to  Freewill @5.2.4    8 months ago
a UN coalition

Hope much do you know about how the UN functions?

For example, did you know they have a Human Rights commission? 

Sounds good, eh?

UN taps Islamic Republic of Iran to chair Human Rights Council Social Forum, sparks outrage

Foxes

Guarding

Henhouse

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @5    8 months ago

And you can't limit the "no winners" to Israel and Gaza alone.  What is bound to take place will have consequences not only for the people in Gaza and Israel, but for those in the West Bank, and in fact for both Muslims and Jews around the world.  However, what is bound to take place in Gaza is not only inevitable, but absolutely necessary.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.3.1  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.3    8 months ago
And you can't limit the "no winners" to Israel and Gaza alone. 

I didn't, when I said no winner I meant to include the ME all countries with a Muslim population and Jewish communities around the world. It will have a profound effect that will be felt for decades.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.3.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kavika @5.3.1    8 months ago

Agreed.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.3.3  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.3    8 months ago
what is bound to take place in Gaza is not only inevitable,

But-- what's the time frame? 

20 years?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
5.3.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @5.3.3    8 months ago

Shadow.jpg

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
5.4  Krishna  replied to  Kavika @5    8 months ago
Whatever Israel chooses to do there are going to be huge repercussions.

I'd been following events in the Middle East for years (But stopped not too long ago).

Hamas regularly stepped up attacks on Israel (about every two years) and Israel contained it pretty quickly. 

One of the things that Israel did differently this time is commit to totally destroying Hamas. And the bombing is considerably more intense.

And they are going to be risking many, many more Israeli lives then in the past.

This time is different.

Why?

I could be wrong, but I think I know the answer.

But first I'm curious to see what other people think.Why is the Israeli response so much stronger now-- and why do they seem to care even less than usual about public opinion?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6  Nerm_L    8 months ago

There is a justification for a ceasefire to discuss terms of surrender.  Hamas can end the destruction and bloodshed in Gaza by surrendering.  If Hamas stopped fighting then Israel doesn't need to continue fighting.  The only viable alternative is for Israel to continue pounding Gaza until the Palestinians begin tossing heads over the fence.  Palestinians celebrate the beheading of children so taking Hamas heads shouldn't be a problem.

Destroying Hamas will require finding and destroying weapons stockpiles, tunnels, and infrastructure used by Hamas.  The IDF must go into Gaza to destroy things and kill people.  Hamas can stop all this today by simply surrendering.  That's not going to save the infrastructure used by terrorists but destroying that infrastructure would certainly be less bloody.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.1  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @6    8 months ago
Hamas can stop all this today by simply surrendering

But how likely is it that a true terror group-- be they Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hizb'Allah. or Isis-- would surrender? They must fight to the death.

(Especially Islamists.who actually believe that if they die fighting in the defense of Islam they are guaranteed a spot in a wonderful "Heaven"?)

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6.1.1  Nerm_L  replied to  Krishna @6.1    8 months ago
But how likely is it that a true terror group-- be they Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hizb'Allah. or Isis-- would surrender? They must fight to the death. (Especially Islamists who actually believe that if they die fighting in the defense of Islam they are guaranteed a spot in a wonderful "Heaven"?)

If these groups represent governing authority then the Palestinian state is a terror state that does not have a right to exist.  Gaza has given up the right to exist as a state by allowing safe haven for terrorists.  There cannot be a two state solution when terrorists govern one of the states.  (That has been one argument for fighting Iran.  Iran is a state sponsor of terror therefore Iran does not have a right to exist as a state.  Terrorists and terrorist states do not have a right to exist.  Period.)

(BTW, that's the reason Ukraine wants Russia to be declared a terrorist state.  Fighting terrorists was also the justification for Kiev starting the war in Donbas.  Kiev claims that Donbas does not have a right to exist as autonomous states because they are controlled by terrorists.  That doesn't have anything to do with Ukrainian national sovereignty.)

Social activists have told us there can be no peace without justice.  Social activists have also claimed that terrorism is a means to a just end.  But terrorists have no right to exist.  Social justice can never be obtained using terrorism.  Terrorists do not have a right to exist so there cannot be justice for terrorists.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.1.2  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @6.1.1    8 months ago
Kiev claims that Donbas does not have a right to exist as autonomous states because they are controlled by terrorists. 

Near the beginning of that war I remember Putin trying to justify his invasion because he claimed Ukraine was controlled by Nazis-- he wanted to rid Ukraine of its Nazi overlords. (Of course it was all a lie)>

So he pushed the notion that Ukraine was run by a sort of terrorists (Nazis). I don't think anyone believed the lie...

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6.1.3  Nerm_L  replied to  Krishna @6.1.2    8 months ago
Near the beginning of that war I remember Putin trying to justify his invasion because he claimed Ukraine was controlled by Nazis-- he wanted to rid Ukraine of its Nazi overlords. (Of course it was all a lie)> So he pushed the notion that Ukraine was run by a sort of terrorists (Nazis). I don't think anyone believed the lie...

Comparing the war in Ukraine with the war in Israel is pretty much an apples & oranges comparison.  Making that comparison means Russia would be Iran and Ukraine would be Hezbollah or Hamas.  Biden has tried to make the case that NATO is the equivalent of Israel. 

Does NATO have a right to exist the same as Israel?  That's why the United States has involved itself in Ukraine.  Biden is supporting NATO and not Ukraine.  

Should we recognize that the two state solution was really intended to weaken Iran?  Should we recognize that nation building Palestine was only intended to influence geopolitical tensions and conflicts in the Middle East?  Can we separate the two state solution from the western hunger for Middle Eastern oil?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.2  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @6    8 months ago
Hamas can stop all this today by simply surrendering. 

WTF?

What so what do you think are the odds of a terrorist organization like Hamas surrenduring. And to Jews?

(And don't forget Hamas not only a religious organization-- but they are religious fanatics!)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
6.3  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @6    8 months ago
Hamas can end the destruction and bloodshed in Gaza by surrendering.

Yes-- that's the way normal people think. But remember-- this is a true terrorist organization. 

In addition, their an organization of extremist religious fanatics.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Expert
6.3.1  Nerm_L  replied to  Krishna @6.3    8 months ago
Yes-- that's the way normal people think. But remember-- this is a true terrorist organization.  In addition, their an organization of extremist religious fanatics.

Hamas surrenders or the war continues.  At this point there isn't a lot of wiggle room.

How many of the Palestinians killed by Israeli air strikes were Hamas?  The Palestinians were warned and given two weeks to move 12 miles.  The Palestinians in northern Gaza have made a choice that will have consequences.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
7  CB    8 months ago

This is not the article and definitely not the video that I wish to share about my comment in another place where the verbiage: "extermination" was meant. I am in a rush at this time and this will point in its direction with some effect and I will continue to carry out the two things I 'promised' ASAP:

Why Palestinians fear that if they leave northern Gaza they may never be able to return

Many worry that Israel’s response to Hamas’ terrorist attack will result in Palestinians’ being permanently expelled from Gaza, stirring painful memories of the “Nakba.”
 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
7.1  Krishna  replied to  CB @7    8 months ago
Many worry that Israel’s response to Hamas’ terrorist attack will result in Palestinians’ being permanently expelled from Gaza, stirring painful memories of the “Nakba.

WTF? No one wants to expel them from Gaza-- because no one wants these assholes in their country! (And yes, that includes the Arab countries who know from experience how totally barbaric these people are!)

And BTW one reason those Gazans who want to leave can't--because their "Egyptian brothers" won't let them leave via the Egyptian controlled Egypt-Gaza border crossing (Rafah)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
7.2  Krishna  replied to  CB @7    8 months ago
Why Palestinians fear that if they leave northern Gaza they may never be able to return

???

After the war is over, Israel will leave.

Israel (and for that matter Egypt) wants none of it!!! Both of them at different times had occupied Gaza. In fact after they left both had the opportunity to go back in and re-occupy it-- neither Egypt nor Israel wanted to.They both know what a place ruled by a terrorist islike.

So if Israel doesn't want to occupy it and leaves-- how is that a problem for Gazans?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
7.2.1  CB  replied to  Krishna @7.2    8 months ago

I am not concerned about it. My comment was a post about a discussion between Perrie and myself on a locked article. I am supplying it for her, chiefly and keeping a 'promise.'  :)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
7.2.2  Krishna  replied to  CB @7.2.1    8 months ago
I am not concerned about it. My comment was a post about a discussion between Perrie and myself on a locked article. I am supplying it for her, chiefly and keeping a 'promise

Well OK then. If you want to keep a promise to Perrie, I an not concerned about that-- in fact I'm not particularly concerned about anything you say. 

(Although I do like to debate things and even hear different opinions than my own. IN doing that I learn a lot, whether its on topic or not)).

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
8  cjcold    8 months ago

Didn't Trump say that Jared had fixed the whole problem?

Yet one more reason for Trump not to be president.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
8.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  cjcold @8    8 months ago
Didn't Trump say that Jared had fixed the whole problem?

What was the quote?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.2  Krishna  replied to  cjcold @8    8 months ago
Didn't Trump say that Jared had fixed the whole problem?

Must've been a different problem. (Although the only one that I can think of that Jared fixed was "666".

666 Fith Avenue is a large bldg on 5th Avenue NYC I don't remember all the details but basically Jared owned it and couldn't make the YUGE mortgage payments. Big problem!

So Jared fixed the problem .He got some wealthy Saudi Prince (or maybe it was from another Gulf country) to pay it off. (maybe even buy it? I ferget.)

So Jared fix his money problem and of course the Saudi foxed his problem (Not having close access to Trump)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
8.3  Krishna  replied to  cjcold @8    8 months ago
Didn't Trump say that Jared had fixed the whole problem?

I:m not sure-- mostly I have Trump on "Ignore", figuratively speaking. . Unless he says really funny, or lies-- then I enjoy listening.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9  CB    8 months ago

In keeping with my saying I would find and post an article mentioning 'extermination' (of Palestinians) I submit this article. To be clear, the original news story mentioning that word was live-video, but this will suffice:

IMPORTANT NOTE:  I only post the below to keep my word to deliver 'it' not because of any personal agenda as I have no agenda in the Middle East:

We’re anti-Zionist Jews and we see genocide unfolding in Gaza

Ellen Brotsky and Ariel Koren

As Jews, we condemn what Israel is doing in Gaza. Any mass slaughter will not just be on Israel’s hands, but on the hands of America

Wed 18 Oct 2023 17.04 ED

It is now impossible for US politicians to ignore the slaughter in Gaza: more than  3,500 Palestinians  have been killed in the 12-day barrage, including the 500 reportedly killed Tuesday at Al-Ahli Arabi Baptist hospital. Some 50 entire families have been  wiped out  – every living relative, including children and babies, gone. And Israel has  issued  a directive to those remaining that amounts to an ultimatum: leave northern Gaza, all 1.1 million of you, “for your own safety” – in other words, evacuate or risk death in the impending blitz and ground invasion.

The United Nations  says  such a mass evacuation is “impossible” and has potentially “devastating humanitarian consequences,”  pleading  with Israel to rescind the order. A UN special rapporteur was clear, calling the order “a crime against humanity and a blatant violation of international humanitarian law.”

We call it something else: unfolding genocide.

There is no other word to describe the pageantry of death embraced by Israel’s politicians. Under  international law , genocide requires two things: an “intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,” and then the attempted destruction of that group. Without intent, these actions amount to ethnic cleansing. If deliberate, they are considered genocide.

Israel seems to be laying the groundwork for destroying Gaza and its residents: President Isaac Herzog on Friday  said  Gazans are not innocent civilians: “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true.” This contradicts international law that  prohibits collective punishment  and the  targeting of civilians , both of which amount to war crimes. It also suggests that Israel will show no restraint in its attacks on Gaza.

Forced displacement, which Israel has begun, is an established precursor to extermination – one of the final steps, in fact, in the  10 stages of genocide  cited internationally by genocide scholars and institutions, including by Holocaust museums  across   the   world . These steps, which can occur simultaneously, include “dehumanization,” acts that deprive groups of water and food, and the false labeling of military operations as “counter-terrorism.”

We are there. Israeli officials are invoking terrorism to justify their indiscriminate bombing campaign, while the Israeli defense minister said that they are fighting  “human animals”  – dehumanising language that is always used in the lead-up to genocide. And an unnamed Israeli defense official was  quoted  as saying: “Gaza will eventually turn into a city of tents. There will be no buildings.”

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has  repeated his promise  that the mass death inflicted thus far is “only the beginning.” The Gaza strip is under “complete siege,” the defense minister  said , and cut off from electricity, fuel, food and water. A Knesset member openly  called for a second Nakba , referring to the mass displacement of Palestinians in 1948. Again, to deliberately create another Nakba would amount to genocide in Gaza.

The rhetoric has made it down to the rank-and-file, too: an Israeli soldier  said  on national television that this war is not just with Hamas, but “with all the civilians.” This indiscriminate erasure of Palestinians in Gaza would, without doubt, be genocide – as an Israeli genocide scholar has himself  stated . The precursors to genocide are actively unfolding before our eyes.

As Jews, we wholly condemn this. We condemn our representatives’ unconditional support for Israeli policy, which has facilitated a decades-long occupation recognized by the majority of the world as a  violation of international law . We condemn any action that will involve our people in another genocide – whether as perpetrators or oppressed.

We call on our lawmakers to do the same. Funding a potential genocide in our name is not an antidote to antisemitism: they are betraying the Jews they claim to support.

More than 1,400 Israelis have been killed last week in brutal surprise attacks by Hamas – in addition to 200 held hostage. This is a terrible, devastating toll, and we mourn the taking of civilian life without reservation. Preventing further loss of life – including of the hostages – is an urgent priority.

We also reject the hyperfixation on Hamas that has swallowed American politics, and understand this recent attack as the result of decades-long Israeli crimes and besiegement. This fact has been affirmed by Israeli  opposition leaders veterans groups , and  newspapers .

We ask our Jewish community: where is the mourning and grief on the days when the civilian lives lost are Palestinian? When the children are seized by Israeli soldiers?

Between 2000 and the recent wave of violence, more than 10,600 Palestinians were killed by Israelis,  according to human rights group B’Tselem , compared to 1,329 Israelis by Palestinians – an eight-fold difference.

The decades between 1948 and 2000 are filled with  tens of thousands  more dead – largely Palestinians. The story of this conflict, the numbers clearly show, has been the story of overwhelming Palestinian death and displacement.

The vast majority of American politicians, now and then, have acquiesced.

Over the last week, President Joseph R Biden has said repeatedly that the US commitment to Israel is steadfast –  “resolute and unwavering”  – as 1,000 bombs are dropped each day. Secretary of State Anthony Blinken  deleted  statements, twice, calling for a ceasefire. As Biden visits Israel, it is critical that he immediately call for an end to hostilities. If he fails to use the enormous leverage he has to save lives in Gaza, those deaths will be partly his responsibility.

A US special envoy  said  that “no one has the right to tell Israel how to defend itself.” The State Department, in fact, has  warned  diplomats to stay away from the phrases “de-escalation/ceasefire,” “end to violence/bloodshed,” and “restoring calm.”

Most of our congressional representatives – of both parties – are no better: leading Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said this was a “religious war” and  called  on Israel to “level the place” when speaking of Gaza.

Representative Nancy Pelosi, our California congresswoman, has  affirmed  that the United States stands “unwaveringly” by Israel as it conducts its defense – which is why seven of us  chained ourselves to her San Francisco offices  on Friday as more than 200 anti-Zionist Jews rallied, calling for an end to US military aid to Israel.

The few who have dissented are sidelined: Representative Rashida Tlaib, for instance, lamented losses on both sides but called for an end to occupation and apartheid; House Republicans are  seeking to censure  her. Representative Ilhan Omar also mourned both Israeli and Palestinian losses but was  lambasted  for daring to question “unconditional weapons sales and military aid to Israel.”

The White House  labeled  any legislators who push for restraint “disgraceful” and “repugnant.”

The most basic humanitarian impulse – to lay down arms – is now unthinkable in American politics. Questioning Israel’s right to “self-defense” is, in fact, equated with antisemitism.

Yet we see plainly the reality of that so-called defense: a terror campaign and developing plans for genocide from above. With Western support, Israel is plunging headfirst into slaughter.

And while the initial incursion by Hamas brought immediate condemnation from politicians across the country, the recent bombing has brought no reckoning whatsoever. There has been almost no reflection on the history that birthed Hamas, barricaded Gaza and created the occupation.

Israel has essentially told Gazans to get out or die, a choice between expulsion and extermination, between ethnic cleansing and genocide – and while doing so has  obliterated exit routes  and  fired on escaping convoys , leaving Gazans trapped.

Instead of calling for an immediate halt to violence, American lawmakers have lit up our capitol buildings in blue and white and said they “stand with Israel.” They have the power to shift the calculus and compel Israel – the  biggest beneficiary  of US military aid – to follow international law, yet they choose not to.

Enough. We call on lawmakers to muster the courage to stop genocide from occurring in our name. They can support Israeli victims without enabling mass slaughter and forced displacement, actions that will claim thousands and thousands of lives.

Any subsequent deaths will be blood not only on Israel’s hands, but on Americans’ – particularly those who had the chance to urge international norms and rebuke occupation, but who chose to stand by instead.

 This article was amended on 21 October 2023 to correct the number of hostages taken by Hamas and to clarify that forced displacement is one of the final steps in genocide before extermination, not the final step as a previous version said.

  • Ellen Brotsky is a longtime Jewish activist and volunteer with Jewish Voice for Peace Bay Area, a chapter of the world’s largest anti-Zionist Jewish organization in solidarity with Palestinian freedom.

  • Ariel Koren is an anti-Zionist Jew who quit Google in protest of the company’s military contract with Israel; she is the founder of Respond Crisis Translation, a rapid-response language justice collective

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9    8 months ago
Note I only post the below to keep my word to deliver 'it' not because of any personal agenda as I have none in the Middle East:

Exactly, we don't have an agenda to protect them anymore than their neighboring Arabs.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.1.1  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.1    8 months ago

That is so stupid on its face. Their "neighboring Arabs" are not fighting them. Israel is. If you intend to play games with my comments then I guess I better start playing games with yours too! Watch this space.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.1.2  Krishna  replied to  CB @9.1.1    8 months ago
Their "neighboring Arabs" are not fighting them

Of course not. Because Israel lies between them and neighboring Arabs (Jordan, Syria,  Lebanon.How would they get through Israel to attack neighboring Arab states?

Well, one exception. Gaza borders Egypt, but they can't fight Egypt because Egypt won't let them in! 

Of course they could fire rockets at Egyptian civilian targets (like they do to Israel). But Egypt is not as restrained as Israel-- it won't fuck around with terrorists!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.1.3  Krishna  replied to  CB @9.1.1    8 months ago
Watch this space.

I'd rather not. jrSmiley_5_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.1.4  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.1.1    8 months ago

Exactly, Palestinian neighbors aren’t fighting with them or protecting them, they want nothing to do with them.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.1.5  CB  replied to  Krishna @9.1.3    8 months ago

Krishna, be clear: Are you trolling me or is this for real?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.1.6  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.1.4    8 months ago

Their Arab neighbors are not fighting the Palestinians because they are on their own lands and its a Palestine/Israel set of issues/policies/possessions. I don't know this to be true, but it could be that other states want this to end (one way or another like the rest of the world). This has been a set of issues in the ME for too damn long, anyway.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.1.7  Krishna  replied to  CB @9.1.6    8 months ago
Their Arab neighbors are not fighting the Palestinians because they are on their own lands

Well depends what you mean by the term "Arab neighbours". If by "Arab neighbours" you mean countries that actually have a border with Gaza then there's only one (Egypt).

So why isn't Egypt fighting any Gazans? After all,  Egypt has had several bad experiences with people from Gaza. (For example, Gazans crossing into Egypt and murdering Egyptians. Egypt does not like that).

So rather than fighting the terrorists, Egypt just keeps their border very tightly closed (and well guarded!)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.1.8  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @9.1.7    8 months ago

Their Arab neighbors are not fighting the Palestinians because they are on their own lands

Well depends what you mean by the term "Arab neighbours". Also what you mean by "their own lands".

If by the term "Arab neighbours"  you mean countries such  Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon... maybe even Iraq, Sudan, ...Libya (?) well the reason they are not fighting the "Palestinians" is because...well...why should they? In most of these cases the so-called "Palestinians" start it by attacking an Arab country.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.1.9  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @9.1.8    8 months ago

If by the term "Arab neighbours"  you mean countries such  Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon... maybe even Iraq, Sudan, ...Libya (?) well the reason they are not fighting the "Palestinians" is because...well...why should they? In most of these cases the so-called "Palestinians" start it by attacking an Arab country.

Of course, now that I think of it, at various times in history,  some of the Arab neighbours have been fighting the so-called "Palestinians". One example that comes to mind" Black September" * :

256

Smoke rises over  Amman  during clashes between the Jordanian military and the  Palestinian fedayeen , 1 October 1970

Black September  ( Arabic أيلول الأسود   Aylūl al-ʾAswad ),  was an armed conflict between  Jordan , led by  King Hussein , and the  Palestine Liberation Organization  (PLO), led by chairman  Yasser Arafat

Notes:

* 1 . "Amman" is the capital of the country of Jordan.

2. Kudos to Drinker of the Wry who had mentioned this previously.

Basically this was a case of "Palestinians" initiating an attack-- and war-- against a near-by Arab country. (Jordan). Arabs killing Arabs.

In addition, the ever peace-loving Iran had fighters involved, and of course peace-loving fighters  from Syria couldn't miss an opportunity to create more blood shed. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.1.10  Krishna  replied to  CB @9.1.1    8 months ago

Their "neighboring Arabs" are not fighting them. Israel is.

Of course the other part of that is this: Their fellow Arabs aren't helping them either!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.1.11  CB  replied to  Krishna @9.1.7    8 months ago

This . . .  follows from what?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.1.12  CB  replied to  Krishna @9.1.9    8 months ago

Which. . . follows from what?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.2  Texan1211  replied to  CB @9    8 months ago

Palestinians have been told to leave for 3 WEEKS now.

Surely they recognize that Israel isn't playing games here.

Civilian deaths are unfortunate. But there really isn't a way to avoid them when they insist on staying there and Hamas--their leaders--use them as shields.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.2.1  Krishna  replied to  Texan1211 @9.2    8 months ago
Palestinians have been told to leave for 3 WEEKS now.

Well in all fairness-- some have gone to the Southern most part of Gaza (Rafah Gate crossing, controlled by Egypt). But last I heard Egypt won't let them through.Will probably be forced to if enough international pressure.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.2.2  Texan1211  replied to  Krishna @9.2.1    8 months ago
Will probably be forced to if enough international pressure.

If only we had such a world organization that could accomplish that.

That would be swell.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.2.3  Krishna  replied to  Texan1211 @9.2.2    8 months ago
If only we had such a world organization that could accomplish that. That would be swell.

Well there's always the UN.

In fact I believe they just appointed Iran to be the head of the Human Rights Committee-- so that should help.

./sarc

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.2.4  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @9.2.1    8 months ago
But last I heard Egypt won't let them through.Will probably be forced to if enough international pressure.

Update: I heard today that Egypt has been letting some throuh, but i think its mainly those that have foreign passports. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.3  Krishna  replied to  CB @9    8 months ago
In keeping with my saying I would find and post an article mentioning 'extermination' (of Palestinians) I submit this article. To be clear, the original news story mentioning that word was live-video, but this will suffice:

Good job!

And if you want to do even better theree's a wonder site that has lots of greats articles like that. IOn principal I wont type its name but its:

st

1rm

2ron3

Put those 3 parts together in order starting with st. Then substitute  letter o for  numeral 1.

f for 2. And t for 3

(I don't know if it still exists but its claims to be the largest of its kind....but please don't seed anything from it or link to it)

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
9.4  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  CB @9    8 months ago

Jewish Voice for Peace is a group that does not believe that Israel should exist. Full stop. Anything from this group is full on propaganda and I don't discuss any garbage they produce. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.4.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @9.4    8 months ago

Jewish Voice for Peace members are no more Jewish than Jews for Jesus.  

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.4.2  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.4.1    8 months ago

My favorite group: "Queers for Palestine".

Whenever I hear that name I keep thinking we should take up a collection and give them a free treip (to the Arab country of their choice).

"A good time will be had by all".

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.4.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @9.4.2    8 months ago

Iran would be a good choice.  They could enjoy the view of Tehran from up high while they're being hung by the neck from a crane. 

R-C.73358dfd1842153e47c37dfe8c87b8c2?rik=ksGR5M5KP%2fJAxQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fhra-news.org%2fimages%2fstories%2fnew%2fBIG%2fzzimg_3139.jpg&ehk=E0qpC5jnuZy75sZ37WK0ytc7yfRMRpzljBQJnXdPpko%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0&sres=1&sresct=1

OIP-C.QfSjmGfmwHzDF2rn3yci0wHaHa?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.4  CB  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @9.4    8 months ago

Yes. I didn't know that about 'internal matters.'  The point I made (on the other article) was somebody was using the verbiage: Palestinian "extermination"  - in interviews. That it was not my personal use. Therefore, I produced people using this verbiage.  :)

That said, as a Black American I am keen to observe that in the United States, there were in this country and still existing here now, people and groups in the majority who aid Black Americans in getting something resembling fairness and inclusion when others in the majority think less of them for doing so.

And with providing that, I can now consider that 'completed.' And move on.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.5  CB  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.4.3    8 months ago

Okay. . . that crossed a red line. I see you differently now.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.6  CB  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @9.4    8 months ago

By the way, I am sitting here thinking about something from the article you shared with me the other day. . . . It was about Hamas stowing supplies for which it does not share with Palestinians in their immediate distresses above ground. It strikes me that if/since that is the case: Palestinian civilians (aged men and women, children, disabled, infirm, etceteras) can't get help from Hamas because they are 'cannon fodder' that somebody in this world should care about these civilian VICTIMS of Hamas and indirectly or directly of Israel.

Subsequently, it makes sense that these people are even less Guilty than first thought, because Hamas is not listening to them or assisting them in any provisional way. Are these civilians firing rockets, holding guns pointed at Israel, shooting guns at Israel? Taking Israelites hostage?

Why can't we let right be right, for consistency-sake?  For example: We don't want mass shooters in our country because they kill innocent men/women/children. Why is it okay to kill civilians who have not done a thing against Israel (or anybody else) but it's acceptable to execute them in search of a larger prize?

Something is very wrong here! 

What do you say about this?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.4.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  CB @9.4.5    8 months ago

I thought the sarcasm of my comment was SO OBVIOUS that a 4 year old child would recognize it.  So I amended my comment JUST FOR YOU. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.8  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.6    8 months ago

How should Israel rid the threat of Hamas for themselves and for Gazans?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
9.4.9  sandy-2021492  replied to  CB @9.4.5    8 months ago

CB, you're not being fair here.  The reason Krishna and Buzz made such comments is not because they have a problem with the LGBTQ community, but because it's ironic that anybody in that community would support a population that would likely contain many people who would cheer the extinction of LGBTQ people, and whose government and terrorist allies certainly would.

That, BTW, is why their flagged comments stand.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.10  CB  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.4.7    8 months ago

I will receive that comment just the way you mean it.  Welcome to November 1. From now on. . . don't bother changing anything for my sake. I got your intentions right the first time! Oh, and about that sarcasm tag it is properly or usually intended to be displayed with its 'content.' That you have to be SARCASTIC in placing it as an afterthought speaks volumes about the seriousness of what you wrote. Although, seeing sarcasm in LYNCHED men swinging from a crane is stretching the ("/s") tag to its limits. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.11  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.8    8 months ago
 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.12  CB  replied to  sandy-2021492 @9.4.9    8 months ago

Good November Sandy. You know, I thought this article was about life not about dragging victimized homosexuals into exploitation comparisons. There was something cruel that just happened here and since I read a new reply -  I see the sentiment is continuing. 

I am fully aware that homosexuals are killed in Muslim countries in horrible ways. But, then to what kind of person would I be if I "death-wished" all Arabs who are homophobic or homosexual haters? I would be the same as those Arabs - a bigoted, SOB!

I have told these specific conservatives over and over across two articles on this subject that I support Israel getting those Arabs which killed civilian Israelites and it went over like a lead balloon for several of them who keep charging me with hints of being antisemitic or at the least not sympathetic to the Israelites. I support LIFE for civilians who had nothing to do with what Hamas did: Do these specific conservatives have any proof that all of Palestine approved/signed off/voted for what Hamas has done? If they do show that.

But to be spiteful and put up a display (directed at me) of homosexuals (the implication) swinging by their neck?!!! What the hell am I supposed to feel? Should I post grotesque images of Israelites in return? I will not do it, because I am better than that!

It was not a joke matter. It can't be allowed to be a joking matter.

Being homosexual does not make me spiteful of Muslims (I have some in my family). Furthermore, as life would have it and I posted about it already several times across two articles at the least: I have Muslim friends. . . one close friend who is Palestinian. I don't hate him because he wouldn't have sex with me-were I having sex. Moreover, I doubt if he wants to kill me-at least, it has not come to that point yet! That is, we've never had that discussion!

In this world we have to accept a great many things. . . until times can get better. It is what we do on NT. Listen, protest, examine, and answer all day long to each other. That someone would think to post an image like that as a sarcastic joke when it is uncalled for calls for it getting called out. 

I could say more, but this will suffice. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
9.4.13  sandy-2021492  replied to  CB @9.4.12    8 months ago

The article is about why the author doesn't favor a cease-fire with Hamas.  And their attitude toward homosexuals, which unfortunately is not dependent on the attitudes of homosexuals toward them, is a damn good reason not to favor a cease-fire.  You may not be spiteful toward Muslims in general, and Muslims in general may not be spiteful toward you.  Hamas?  Iranian mullahs?  Yeah, they're spiteful toward you. 

Buzz and Krish noting that is not them being spiteful toward you.  It's a statement of reality.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.14  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.11    8 months ago

Neither Iraq or Afghanistan had hundreds of miles of tunnels under apartments, schools, hospitals in which to hide.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.15  CB  replied to  sandy-2021492 @9.4.13    8 months ago

But why is it a statement of reality when as you indicate the article is about a cease-fire with Hamas? Moreover, "Iran" and "Mullahs" just got name-dropped into this. Why is this expanding? 

My concern is for civilians in the Gaza Strip to LIVE and that is what some here take exception to, I guess! I repeat, I have never hated all Muslims even after the horrible things they do to my 'kind.' Also, I don't death-wish some republicans and some conservatives either and some of them literally hate what I stand for and some even express a wish to suppress it, me, and kill when possible. 

That is just not how I think, Sandy.

So yes, I don't find it helpful or persuasive to throw up an image of supposedly homosexuals lynched as if to say that I should blame all of anybody for Muslim state and regional policy against homosexuals. If that was the case, then I could hate every heterosexual who wishes me and my 'kind' ill. And, I don't and I won't. 

Judge issues and individuals on their merit/s. 

NOTE:  My thoughts are scattered right now because I have to make a run. Hope this conveys what I wish to get across—mostly.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.4.16  Texan1211  replied to  CB @9.4.15    8 months ago
My concern is for civilians in the Gaza Strip to LIVE and that is what some here take exception to, I guess!

Reading the comments, that is one horrible guess.

I haven't seen one person cheering for civilian deaths or advocating for same.

Some are more receptive to the fact that terrorists use "innocent" Palestinians and hide behind them, and can see that in war, innocent civilians often, tragically, die.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.17  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.14    8 months ago

Is it your view that under the circumstances you 'layout' that it is okay to deliberately bomb civilians to get terrorists? As some have pointed out in these several discussions, Hamas in not a true friend to ordinary Palestinians, Israel is bombing Palestinian civilians, and Egypt is unwilling to receive an influx of refugees from yet another war next door. 

So just kill them?!! Seriously?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.18  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @9.4.16    8 months ago

Deliberate targeting or dismissive targeting of civilians is wrong as the day is long.  Full stop. You would feel similarly or may be you wouldn't mind being targeting (only you know) if you had someone you care about under steady bombardment.  Ideology tends to take a back seat to self-survival. Can't you empathize with these people who are being served up as 'cannon fodder' even a little?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
9.4.19  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  CB @9.4.15    8 months ago
My concern is for civilians in the Gaza Strip to LIVE and that is what some here take exception to, I guess!

It seems you are assuming that it is easy to identify an enemy in these circumstances.  It's not.  In 1.3.2 you mentioned about how the US did it.  I'll tell you from experience that it is a very drawn out and tedious process that took years to set up and is not an option right now.  Hamas is hiding among the civilians.  They are dressed like them, they act like them.  Right now it is very difficult to identify them among a group.  That is the same problem the US had in the early parts of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.  

Now you have to keep in mind that the civilians aren't trusted.  THEY voted Hamas into power over them.  THEY kept quiet while every attack on Israel was set up.  Other Arab nations do not even want the refugees.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.20  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.17    8 months ago
Is it your view that under the circumstances you 'layout' that it is okay to deliberately bomb civilians to get terrorists? 

Deliberately?  No, the target was one of the Hamas architects of 7 Oct and 50 of his best buds.  The civilians were there either because they didn't want to heed Israeli requests to go south or because hamas prevented them from leaving.

As some have pointed out in these several discussions, Hamas in not a true friend to ordinary Palestinians

I agree with that.

Israel is bombing Palestinian civilians

No, Israel is bombing Hamas that are hiding behind civilians.

Egypt is unwilling to receive an influx of refugees from yet another war next door. 

They don't seem to like the palestinians and Hamas mixture much

So just kill them?!! Seriously?

Was Truman wrong to end WW II by bombing Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.21  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.18    8 months ago

War is always ugly, it is exceptionally ugly in a dense urban setting.  The most moral warfighter has to constantly consider the cost/benefit equation.  What is the cost to my military, what is the cost to collateral damage and civilian casualties against what is the expected benefit by eliminating the target.

Israel could have left those Hamas planners alone to avoid Gazan civilian casualties but the potential cost was a future assault on Israeli civilians like on 7 Oct.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.22  CB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @9.4.19    8 months ago
That is the same problem the US had in the early parts of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.  

Several reasons the 'Coalition of friends' who fought with us (the proper name for the grouping escapes me at this time) in Iraq and Afghanistan opted to not make 'fodder' of more civilians in those crises is this: 1. Some countries balked at such killings. Some partially because they never wanted to find themselves 'fodder' under similar circumstances.  2. Some of our 'friends' along with us thought it unwise to turn an entire nation's population against the soldier's sent in on the ground. 3. The third audience is future onlookers who become participants by coming out of the background and attacking because of what they perceive as unbearable brutality of their brethren or others. 4. The fourth audience is "hearts and minds" and could include "future" lone-wolfs who become radicalized to hate or even launch solo attacks around the world because of the death of family, friends, or just because of the cruelty of of perceived careless bombardments of civilians.

For they would become a force unto themselves. (If people are going to kill you anyway-why not pick up a gun/weapon/snitch on their whereabouts). In taking care of those nation's innocent ones (victims) the 'coalition' earned a modicum of respect from the locals who actually 'found' a reason to help them-help them get rid of their corrupt authority figures. 

Hamas was voted in to office in 2005. And once their routed the Palestinian Authority.  And as has been pointed over and again Hamas is no properly friend to Palestinian civilians. Therefore, two things or more can be true about the same set of conditions and circumstances. 

Arab nations don't want territorial disputes to keep "UPHEAVALS"  in their national politics. I can understand this. For example: Color me cynical to think that opening humanitarian 'corridors' for people to leave a combat zone. . . and immediately turning around to feed millions of people their 'daily needs' would have been unnecessary if the people were left in their status quo condition. The Arab countries worry about their economies, their stockpiles of resources (and shortages), and the logistics, of caring for unscheduled guest. Also, there is the fear that terrorists could bring their 'shitty designs' into other Arab nations in a "stranger things happening" set of events.

Go after the terrorists. They have the guns pointing outward. Don't 'shoot'! Civilians are unarmed. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
9.4.23  sandy-2021492  replied to  CB @9.4.15    8 months ago
But why is it a statement of reality when as you indicate the article is about a cease-fire with Hamas? Moreover, "Iran" and "Mullahs" just got name-dropped into this. Why is this expanding? 

Why in the world would the fact that this article is about a cease-fire make a statement regarding bigotry against LGBTQ among radical Islamists NOT a statement of reality?  That's like saying that a statement about photosynthesis can't be factual if it's made in reference to an article about roses.  Iran and Islamic mullahs got name-dropped because who do you think is stirring up support for Islamic terrorists, and funding them?

Nobody here thinks you've death-wished anybody, nor do they think that you should blame all Muslims for the actions of the radicals among them.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.4.24  Krishna  replied to  CB @9.4.4    8 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.4.25  Krishna  replied to  CB @9.4.17    8 months ago
, Israel is bombing Palestinian civilians

Why do you think the Jews are like that?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.4.27  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  CB @9.4.10    8 months ago

As I said, even a 4 year old would have understood that my reply to Krishna's obviously sarcastic remark was to enforce its sarcasm by illustrating what he meant.  Since you didn't, and STILL refuse to acknowledge that it was meant to be sarcasm, I was really thinking of giving you a gift that I'm sure you would enjoy, but then since I prefer keeping myself clear of tickets and points, as I usually do, I decided to NOT gift you with this:

Baby-Toy-Rattle-Infant-Rattles-Bed-Developmental-Hand-Bell-Kids-Infant-Baby-Rattle-Hand-Bell-Toy.jpeg

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.4.28  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.4.3    8 months ago
They could enjoy the view of Tehran from up high while they're being hung by the neck from a crane. 

I believe I've read that they mostly do that to gays. (And since the international community might not approve of that, Iran always says they are hanging drug dealers -- which sounds acceptable).

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.4.29  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @9.4.28    8 months ago

You should be more careful of what you say.  There's someone here who's feelings might get hurt.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.30  CB  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.4.27    8 months ago

Okay. I guess that is sarcasm without the tag. Maybe you FORGOT we just discussed the value of appropriate tags to convey meaning in comments. I forgive you.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.31  CB  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.4.29    8 months ago

I've seen someone's feelings hurt too and the next time that occurs I will make a point to draw someone's attention to it.  /s

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.4.32  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.4.29    8 months ago
You should be more careful of what you say.  There's someone here who's feelings might get hurt.

Some one?

Only one?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.4.33  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.4.27    8 months ago

Looks almost like a rattle.

But seriously, WTF is that thing?

It looks like it could be some kind of a sex toy for Pamplemousses!

(Or some other extremely dangerous wild animal)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.34  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.20    8 months ago
Is it your view that under the circumstances you 'layout' that it is okay to deliberately bomb civilians to get terrorists? 
Deliberately?  No, the target was one of the Hamas architects of 7 Oct and 50 of his best buds.  The civilians were there either because they didn't want to heed Israeli requests to go south or because hamas prevented them from leaving.

Now we're moving forward! Images of dead unarmed civilians from bombs, shellings, and ground forces won't help Israel's image in the region and around the world. That said, there is a lot fewer terrorists in the world today!  Or, perhaps this explosion you're referencing just set more hearts and minds of some around the world against/for the worse towards Israel? (Rhetorical.) 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.4.35  Texan1211  replied to  CB @9.4.34    8 months ago
Now we're moving forward! Images of dead unarmed civilians from bombs, shellings, and ground forces won't help Israel's image in the region and around the world.

Reasonable people will support Israel against terrorists any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Israel's responsibility is to protect its citizens, and unless other countries are going to do that for them, I bet Israel doesn't really give a damn if some other country 'support' them or not.

Again, you condemn Israel with no solution offered up. I guess some people are just cool with Hamas assholes firing rockets at Israelis whenever they feel like it and Israel is supposed to do nothing because Hamas plays dirty and imbeds themselves with civilians.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.36  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.21    8 months ago

Thank you for sharing this. It moves the discussion forward and I truly appreciate it. One of the activities the U.S did upon entering Iraq (well two things): 1.  The 'Coalition' cancelled its big presentation of "Shock and Awe" by just sending in several choice rockets against the night sky of Iraq before ground entry.  2. The "benefit" to that was borne out when the coalition did cross into Iraq and civilians there did not fight them, but in their own way, WELCOMED the coalition. Turning "enemies" into unexpected friends can happen in times of war. . . with the 'right' approach. People are not so stupid that they don't know how vulnerable they are to attack, injury, and death—for themselves and/or their loved ones. So they appreciate it when they are allowed to live. And not be so-called, "collateral damage."

Enter Gaza City right and the populace left there just might assist in pushing Hamas out into the streets to be rounded up or at the least, sufficiently give INTEL about Hamas that they can be relatively safely rounded up. 

Or some such thing as that. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.37  CB  replied to  sandy-2021492 @9.4.23    8 months ago

I have no idea what this is about. So, I'll just leave it alone.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.4.38  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  CB @9.4.30    8 months ago
"I forgive you."

Okay, and I forgive you for misconstruing and not understanding what I had posted.  For the sake of clarity I will try to make sure that I post the appropriate symbol with my comments.  Actually I don't remember a discussion about symbols, but then after all, at my age.............what was I saying?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.39  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @9.4.35    8 months ago

You are being misleading. I support Israel against Hamas. I support civilian lives because people matter. Make the distinction when you right about this if you wish to be accurate about my viewpoint.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.40  CB  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.4.38    8 months ago

Okay, Buzz! Now that was funny in its own way.  :)  You forgive me. You forgive me for misconstruing. . . . Did you admit to leaving off the sarc tag. Yes, why yes you did. Anyway, that was a light-hearted comeback!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.4.41  Texan1211  replied to  CB @9.4.39    8 months ago
You are being misleading.

Am I? Or accurately describing what I see?

I support Israel against Hamas.

I am sure that is true in some ways.

It just seems as though what you would like Israel to do contradicts that sentiment.

 I support civilian lives because people matter.

You've said that already. Do you think you are the only one or something?

Do you feel as though you have some moral high ground here?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
9.4.42  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  CB @9.4.6    8 months ago
What do you say about this?

What I would say, is that in a perfect world there would be no death. I a little less than perfect world, there would be death of only evil. In a less than perfect world innocence is killed to prevent evil from thriving. Everybody finally got this into their heads about the Nazis, but not before 12 million people died in the camps. 

I am very saddened about what is happening to the innocent Palestinians, but I am afraid, that just like the bombing of Dresden, I don't see another way. Their own brethren don't take pity on them. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.4.43  JohnRussell  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.4.27    8 months ago

How your comment went unflagged and is still standing is a big mystery to me. 

It is a combination of personal insult and trolling. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.4.44  JohnRussell  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.20    8 months ago
Deliberately?  No, the target was one of the Hamas architects of 7 Oct and 50 of his best buds.  The civilians were there either because they didn't want to heed Israeli requests to go south or because hamas prevented them from leaving.

The other day an Israeli military spokesman was asked in a tv interview about the bombing of the refugee camp. He was asked about the civilian casualties and if Israel knew there were civilians at the site of the bombing. The man didnt say Israel didnt know, he said that there was a high ranking Hamas leader hiding underground there and Israel wanted to eliminate him. 

There is no doubt that civilians are killed in battles in urban settings, but we constantly hear that Israel is not targeting civilians and when it happens it is unintentional.  This Israely military spokesman didnt say a civilian area was not targeted, he said it was necessary to target a civilian area because there was a  (or maybe a bunch of) Hamas leaders there. 

Israel can justify it any way they want, and certainly many many people agree with them. But dont say the bombing of the refugee camp was not deliberate, even though the IDF knew there were civilians there. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.45  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @9.4.44    8 months ago
But dont say the bombing of the refugee camp was not deliberate, even though the IDF knew there were civilians there. 

The target was Hamas who were hiding below civilians.  Why is this apartment complex called a refugee camp?

Should Hamas be off limits when hiding behind civilians?  Should they have been left alone to plan another attack on Israeli citizens?

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
9.4.46  George  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.45    8 months ago

Obama double tapped wedding parties to kill first responders, and not a peep. is it hypocrisy or antisemitism that causes them angst now?

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
9.4.47  George  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.45    8 months ago
Why is this apartment complex called a refugee camp?

Because Hamas was seeking refuge under it?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.48  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @9.4.41    8 months ago

Sharing my thoughts about civilians is me sharing my thoughts. My "high ground." No one has to agree or disagree with it either way. I support Israel against Hamas. I  support the life of civilians in a war and that is consistent with the principle of "you shall not kill."  It is useful to remember the distinction. And, that two or several things can be true at the same time. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.4.49  Texan1211  replied to  CB @9.4.48    8 months ago

I have read your posts.

While sounding grand and compassionate towards Palestinians. your "solutions" don't work for Israel.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.50  CB  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @9.4.42    8 months ago

We all should be saddened over the death of one civilian on any/all sides. Innocent people are non-participants in the break-downs between societies that come to war. I will remind Israel to protect its citizens and yet simultaneously protect others. . .who like us have a SURVIVAL INSTINCT and do not want to die, least of all, for 'nothing.'  :)  Worse, watch their LOVED ONES - we all have them - blown to SMITHEREENS as if they are terrorists without distinction they are not!

I am detached emotionally from this. But, it is needful that someone make the case for those who can't defend themselves in this situation they find themselves. It's not easy for me, and I will be taken to 'task' and misunderstood. But, that's life in an IMPERFECT world.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.51  CB  replied to  JohnRussell @9.4.44    8 months ago

I watched that interview. It was with Alex Wagner and an IDF officer/spokesman, if memory serves me well right now. And yes, I 'clocked' that he was implying that a greater, albeit state-selfish, goal was accomplished by getting the Hamas 'agents' underground. To be fair, the officer went on to state that civilians were warned to evacuate the area and Ms. Wagner pointed out to him that at the time that was the safe area or that no area was deemed safe from bombardment near those civilians (going from memory here). The officer left it further 'unanswered' and unaddressed. Of course, the "third" audience of onlookers around the world will make its own judgement call on the loss of innocent lives.

One more thing I remember: The Israelite Officer did point out that the Geneva Convention explains that military forces using civilian quarters for 'cover' or to 'hide behind' and do nefarious activities is disallowed. Possibly a war crime. I have not researched this. It is a good point!

Still it does not help the civilians and that is the (important) thing when it comes to affecting hearts and minds and world-wide acts of anti-semitism against unarmed Jews around the world. I hate to be so blunt (in-delicate) with that last sentence, but some things need to be stated plainly so they can be considered.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.52  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @9.4.49    8 months ago

We're have to see what the 'end' will be after all the dusts settle: Will things change or will there be a new 'emergence' somewhere in the M/E or across the world because of this war. I pray Israel has the wisdom this moment needs.  Peace.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
9.4.53  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @9.4.19    8 months ago

Any Palestinian dressed as a civilian and pointing a AK-47 at Israeli troops is obviously not a "innocent civilian", therefore is fair game and their life if forfeit.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
9.4.54  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @9.4.53    8 months ago

And there lies the problem.  You have somebody hiding among the civilian population with an AK stuck in his man jammies and people think it would be easy to identify the combatant from the civilians.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.55  CB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @9.4.54    8 months ago

?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.oDqhW-MdLua0ZOBooUj8XwHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=6256420c5d5e3f5c7b5c968d123ef3f464eed47a3e1237f89cc9d9925ee0a6fd&ipo=images

Hamas militants. 

As for un-uniformed militants. That is always a possibility. As anybody knows. Subsequently, if anybody points a gun or "AK"  in your direction (seemingly to shoot) —defend yourself!  Even local LEO know this. You just don't mount up civilian deaths by indiscriminate bombing from above and gunning down UNARMED PEOPLE for just being "Present." 

I would like very much not to encounter somebody in the field experiencing a manic episode to kill every human being in plain clothes he encounters! :)

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
9.4.56  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  CB @9.4.55    8 months ago
As for un-uniformed militants. That is always a possibility.

That is what the IDF have been fighting for years and to what I referred in my comment.  It's laughable that you think that Hamas fighters are wearing a uniform.

Subsequently, if anybody points a gun or "AK"  in your direction (seemingly to shoot) —defend yourself!  You just don't mount up civilian deaths by indiscriminate bombing from above and gunning down UNARMED PEOPLE for just being "Present." 

And so far, it appears the only ones killing unarmed civilians have been the Hamas fighters.  Or did you not even attempt to watch the video in 10.1.27?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.57  CB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @9.4.56    8 months ago

I am not going to argue with you, Jeremy. I can see in the video  10.1.27 people in 'uniform' fatigues and people carrying guns. If someone is UNAUTHORIZED on your property and/or/ carrying a gun and pointing it in your or family or friends direction: Defend yourself. It goes without being long drawn out that UNARMED CIVILIANS are not armed to do combat. But, I am fatigued of explaining this one, single FACT to individuals who simply want to make all Palestinians no matter their involvement in the crime of murder and invasion pay the 'ultimate' cost.

The video is horrific, of course. But it speaks to me that you get the ones who did this by going after the organization. Not just deliver collective justice to all Palestinians. Because as you can see that is not all of Gaza doing this crime.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
9.4.58  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  CB @9.4.57    8 months ago
I can see in the video  10.1.27 people in 'uniform' fatigues and people carrying guns.

You left out the part where they are killing civilians.  TARGETING civilians.  These aren't IDF soldiers.  These are Hamas fighters with a history of targeting civilians.  And if we look at your comments, these are the people you support.

And, before I forget, these aren't from cctv on private property.  This is in public, in the open.  So you can stop with the "defending yourself on private property" bullshit.  That's not what's happening.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.59  CB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @9.4.58    8 months ago

What are you doing? Of course, I know Hamas is killing civilians. It is atrocious.  Why are you finding fault with everything I write? It is more than what is needed. If you must declare a 'win' then just do it . I have done my best to agree with you (where possible to no clear avail).  I am done! 

For the UMPTEENTH time. Hamas fighters do not appear to be run of the mill Palestinian civilians (in and out of uniform). There is no justification for bombing UNARMED CIVILIAN MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!!!  You would not do it in the U.S - so why try to convince me- it is not right to do there either. And as has been illustrated from posted comments about international documents. . . there are other agreements and Geneva conventions that bar indiscriminate collective guilt killing of civilians. 

That's all I have. Again, I am done. We've beat this 'horse' so badly until it is too sore to even mount!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.4.60  TᵢG  replied to  CB @9.4.59    8 months ago

Seems to me your position is twofold:

  1. Hamas' inhuman attack on Israeli citizens was horrific, unnecessary and should be absolutely condemned.
  2. The nation of Israel has the moral, justified right to destroy Hamas (and even the need to do so), but they should do it with minimal collateral damage to Palestinian civilians and that they are not taking this approach.

People are on your case because what you wish in 2 seems impossible to do in reality. 

Have I captured the essence?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.61  CB  replied to  TᵢG @9.4.60    8 months ago

Yes. Yes. Yes. People do die through what is 'evidentially' mistakes in the fog or nature of wars. I get that and so do any of us. However, killing innocent men, women, children, elderly, disabled, poor, or all-around people who just can't seem to get out of the way is WRONG. We, as a nation, know it is wrong because we would insist that it never happen over here. So why do these "Americans" want to argue that something of a "vengeful spirit" should be let loose in Gaza. 

Go get Hamas: Hamas indiscriminately killed Israelis. The populace, not holding weapons (maybe never held a weapon) have offended NO ONE.

Will getting Hamas require a different approach then indiscriminate bombings - yes. But it is what it is.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
9.4.62  Sean Treacy  replied to  CB @9.4.61    8 months ago
getting Hamas require a different approach then indiscriminate bombings - yes. But it is what it is.

Good thing that's not what happening then. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.63  CB  replied to  Sean Treacy @9.4.62    8 months ago

Obstinance is as obstinance does. Short-sightedness is as short-sightedness does. I remember suicide bombings in that area of the world. To me, it was the worse thing a human being could do to himself/herself. I don't even know why such macabre conduct ended. It just seemed to have run its course. Could it make a return. Possibly. I certainly hope not.  I even reflected on writing it in print here. For fear of putting it in the air. . . but this non-stop obstinance leaves little to the imagination that should not be given explanation or 'voice.'

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.64  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.61    8 months ago
Will getting Hamas require a different approach then indiscriminate bombings - yes. But it is what it is.

What should Israel do if intelligence indicates a senior Hamas military leader is in a bunker with 50 other militants planing a raid into Israel?  The bunker is 100 feet below an apartment building that may or may not still have some civilians left in it,

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.65  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.63    8 months ago
I remember suicide bombings in that area of the world. To me, it was the worse thing a human being could do to himself/herself.

Yes, the 2nd Intifada.  Hamas sent civilians, some with mental issues, to go into Israeli restaurants, board buses and other public place and blow up themselves with as many Israelis as possible.  Hamas then paid a fee to the bombers family and celebrated his martyrdom.

To me, it was the worst a human can do to others.

That was the beginning of peace loving, two nation Israelis to turn their back on Palestinians.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.66  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.64    8 months ago

Tell us what you would advise Israel to do. Put it in words and be clear. And, I hope you realize that if no civilians are present/there they should do to Hamas accordingly. Otherwise, the outcome will be "sweet" in the short-run, but the Israelis' reputation/brand will suffer once the death of civilians found dead in the rumble is documented and shown around the world. Leading to who knows what!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.67  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.66    8 months ago
Tell us what you would advise Israel to do. Put it in words and be clear.

Exactly, no pictures.  I would advise the IDF to use penetration, bunker busting bombs.  The suspected target is too valuable to risk getting away.

And, I hope you realize that if no civilians are there they should do to Hamas accordingly.

I don’t understand what you mean.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.68  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.66    8 months ago
Leading to who knows what!

That’s not typically a decision criteria.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.69  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.67    8 months ago

Of course you know what I mean. But you want to drag it out. . . .bomb Hamas for its crime against Israel and its civilians. And, be mindful:  If civilians are there when the "superior" weaponry destroys Palestinian civilians who have no clue who is hiding in their midst, the world will not look the other way.

Already, the 'bestie' friend of Israel, the U.S. is opening/publicly warning Israel to 'guard' the bigger picture and not to make this about indiscriminate vengeance (which could infuriate the third and fourth "audiences" of states or state actors who currently are watching from the sidelines).

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.70  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.68    8 months ago

You may not worry about the long-term outcomes. But Israel has to for the obvious reason that they can't just up and move away from their home! Let's say they have vested interests in WHAT the long-term will bring to the two peoples and the land they both inhabit.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.71  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.69    8 months ago
Of course you know what I mean.

You assume to much.

bomb Hamas for its crime against Israel and its civilians.

No, I recommended bombing Hamas to reduce future crimes.

If civilians are there when the "superior" weaponry destroys Palestinian civilians who have no clue who is hiding in their midst,  the world will not look the other way

Yes, that’s a hard decision Israel has to make.  What’s the trade space between future Israeli casualties and international opinion.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.72  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.71    8 months ago
What’s the trade space between future Israeli casualties and international opinion.

Now it's my turn. I don't know what you mean by "trade space" unless you mean "trade off."  Namely, negative international opinion/s over the death of a myriad of innocent people not involved in the crime against Israel won't count unless it brings with it a backlash that leaves Israel exposed on its political side, breaks down international friends or put those at serious risk of diminishment,  and/or spawns new terrorists cells.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.73  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.72    8 months ago

Yes, trade space and trade offs are essentially the same.  Modern militaries attempt to use a sound methodology to conduct risk-informed trade space analysis in operational decisions.

You seem to have left out of the equation this risk of letting this Hamas cell continue its work.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.74  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.73    8 months ago
You seem to have left out of the equation this risk of letting this Hamas cell continue its work.

I have not suggest Hamas stay intact at all by the end of this. Hamas committed a grave crime against Israel's UNARMED civilians and should pay for it accordingly.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.75  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.74    8 months ago
I have not suggest Hamas stay intact at all by the end of this.

And I haven’t accused you of that.

Hamas committed a grave crime against Israel's UNARMED civilians and should pay for it accordingly.

Yes, but you haven’t offered a viable way to make Hamas pay for it.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
9.4.76  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.67    8 months ago

Pretty sure we still have some MOAB's with hardened penetrator noses in the inventory that Israel could put to good use. That would make short work of those tunnels like they did at the Tora Bora caves in Afghanistan. Hamas would never know what hit em.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.77  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @9.4.76    8 months ago

I don’t know, but hope that we’ve provided some  MOP, Massive Ordnance Penetrator.  

30,000 pounds to penetrate 200 ft of concrete. It doesn’t take that much blast, the power is in the case hardened shell allowing it to go very deep before exploding.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.78  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.75    8 months ago

Would it matter? It's not like I am going to 'GO!' carry any 'way' out. jrSmiley_123_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.79  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.78    8 months ago

Exactly, pretty much a wasted discussion.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.80  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.79    8 months ago

You brought it up! So. . . .  

Now to something a tad different but relevant: What say you:

Do you agree with Russia bombing civilians in Ukraine?  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.81  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.80    8 months ago
Do you agree with Russia bombing civilians in Ukraine?  

No, like Hamas, they are the instigator in their war.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.82  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.81    8 months ago

You do not agree with Russia bombing civilians in Ukraine. Yet an obvious implication is you view unarmed civilians on the Gaza Strip as "instigators" in this M/E war. Tell me: the invalid, sick, feeble-minded, disabled, poor and powerless, the youth and children, and Palestinians with jobs in Israel are these folks "instigators"? 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
9.4.83  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @9.4.82    8 months ago
You do not agree with Russia bombing civilians in Ukraine.

Correct.

Yet an obvious implication is you view unarmed civilians on the Gaza Strip as "instigators" in this M/E war.

Correct, the Gazan government, like Russia, instigated their war.

Tell me: the invalid, sick, feeble-minded, disabled, poor and powerless, the youth and children, andPalestinians with jobs in Israel are these folks "instigators"? 

You forgot all the able bodied Palestinians.  Yes, their government instigated this war.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
9.4.84  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  CB @9.4.59    8 months ago
Of course, I know Hamas is killing civilians. It is atrocious.

And this is the first instance you have acknowledged it.  Sadly you had to be called out before you did it.

There is no justification for bombing UNARMED CIVILIAN MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!!!

The only ones that are targeting unarmed civilians are Hamas.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.85  CB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @9.4.84    8 months ago

You didn't call out anything, except in you own 'head.' But, believe what you want. I actually regret I spent time on this subject with you at all!  Overnight I thought in through and this morning I rise to drop this subject because it is going in circles. I release it to its own destruction.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.4.86  JohnRussell  replied to  CB @9.4.85    8 months ago

Can we bring this seed to an end please. One of you is going to have to take that initiative. It has long back outlived its usefulness. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.4.87  CB  replied to  JohnRussell @9.4.86    8 months ago

I finally agree. See 9.4.86. And I read your comment AFTER I wrote that one and REFRESHED.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
9.4.88  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @9.4.75    8 months ago

Acute and terminal lead poisoning is a good way to start.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.4.89  JohnRussell  replied to  CB @9.4.87    8 months ago

570 comments is enough for any seed on NT. 

I have long thought that when seeds get over 250 or so comments they should be moved off the front page and to a special section of the forum. They just become way too repetitive when the comments start to mount. 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
9.4.90  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @9.4.89    8 months ago

Or when they repeatedly do not match somebody else's particular point(s) of view?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
9.5  Krishna  replied to  CB @9    8 months ago
In keeping with my saying I would find and post an article mentioning 'extermination' (of Palestinians) I submit this article. To be clear, the original news story mentioning that word was live-video, but this will suffice: IMPORTANT NOTE:  I only post the below to keep my word to deliver 'it' not because of any personal agenda as I have no agenda in the Middle East:

Things just keep getting curiouser and curiouser.....

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
9.5.1  CB  replied to  Krishna @9.5    8 months ago

You can let it go already. It was something between Perrie (the seeder) and me. Albeit public.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
9.5.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @9.5    8 months ago

LOL.  Your avatar is having an effect on you.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
10  charger 383    8 months ago

What good military Commander will sacrifice his soldiers for enemy civilians?   

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1  CB  replied to  charger 383 @10    8 months ago

May I? Israel has an opportunity to 'amaze' the world if it does this right and bring the world along on its journey to "correct" Hamas and free the Palestinians who are now suffering because of Hamas! Do it wrong and their will undoubtedly be reproach heard around the world. That is just the way it is. The politics of the matter.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
10.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  CB @10.1    8 months ago

Everybody wants Israel to "do it right" but no one ever wants to tell us what the "right" way is.

The "right" way to me is destroying Hamas.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
10.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  CB @10.1    8 months ago

Well, Jew hatred and thereby Israel hatred is pretty normal around the world anyway, so what the hell, eh?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Expert
10.1.3  Krishna  replied to  CB @10.1    8 months ago
May I?

Yes you may.

You may take three umbrella steps.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
10.1.4  CB  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.1.2    8 months ago

What the hell?! Ain't Jews tired of all this killing in the M/E and in their world? I mean really now! Perpetual skirmishes and open warfare is no way to live generation to generation to generation. Is this area of the world called, "Holy Land"  then why are the supposedly most religious people in the world annually fighting and killing each other?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
10.1.5  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  CB @10.1.4    8 months ago

So who is dedicated  even in their constitution, to eradicate the other?  Maybe that will give you the answer.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal