Opinion | I Might Have Once Favored a Cease-Fire With Hamas, but Not Now - The New York Times
Category: News & Politics
Via: perrie-halpern • last year • 576 commentsBy: President Emmanuel Macron (nytimes)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Please note: I made a green quick read for those who want a quick read.
In the past, I might have favored a cease-fire with Hamas during a conflict with Israel. But today it is clear to me that peace is not going to be possible now or in the future as long as Hamas remains intact and in control of Gaza. Hamas's power and ability to threaten Israel — and subject Gazan civilians to ever more rounds of violence — must end.
After Oct. 7, there are many Israelis who believe their survival as a state is at stake. That may sound like an exaggeration, but to them, it's not. If Hamas persists as a military force and is still running Gaza after this war is over, it will attack Israel again. And whether or not Hezbollah opens a true second front from Lebanon during this conflict, it, too, will attack Israel in the future. The aim of these groups, both of which are backed by Iran, is to make Israel unlivable and drive Israelis to leave: While Iran has denied involvement in the Hamas attack, Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme leader, has long talked about Israel not surviving for another 25 years, and his strategy has been to use these militant proxies to achieve that goal.
Given the strength of Israel's military — by far the most powerful in the region — the aims of Iran and its collaborators seemed implausible until a few weeks ago. But the events of Oct. 7 changed everything. As one commander in the Israeli military said, "If we do not defeat Hamas, we cannot survive here."
Israel is not alone in believing it must defeat Hamas. Over the past two weeks, when I talked to Arab officials throughout the region whom I have long known, every single one told me that Hamas must be destroyed in Gaza. They made clear that if Hamas is perceived as winning, it will validate the group's ideology of rejection, give leverage and momentum to Iran and its collaborators and put their own governments on the defensive.
But they said this in private. Their public postures have been quite different. Only a few Arab states openly condemned the Hamas massacre of more than 1,400 people in Israel. Why? Because Arab leaders understood that as Israel retaliated and Palestinian casualties and suffering grew, their own citizens would be outraged and they needed to be seen as standing up for the Palestinians, at least rhetorically.
Nowhere was the instinct to cater to the mood of the street more vividly revealed than in the quick denunciations of Israel after Hamas claimed that Israel bombed Al-Ahli hospital in Gaza. Israel has denied hitting the hospital but in several Arab countries, Hamas's claims were accepted. At this point, multiple national intelligence agencies have said it was most likely a Palestinian rocket that hit the hospital.
Nevertheless, people across the region — and the world — saw Israel bombing Gaza and were ready to believe this, too, was deliberately done. Even the United Arab Emirates, which had condemned the Hamas attack, issued a later statement condemning "the Israeli attack that targeted Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital in the Gaza Strip, resulting in the death and injury of hundreds of people." It went on to call on "the international community to intensify efforts to reach an immediate cease-fire to prevent further loss of life."
As Israel's aerial bombardment of Gaza picks up in pace and civilian casualties rise, international calls for an immediate cease-fire are mounting. Some are calling for Israel to call off a ground invasion. But ending the war now would mean Hamas would win. At present, its military infrastructure still exists, its leadership remains largely intact, and its political control of Gaza is unchallenged. As Hamas did after conflicts with Israel in 2009, 2012, 2014 and 2021, the group will almost certainly rearm and restore. It will be able to add to its system of tunnels running under the enclave. The strip will remain impoverished, and the next round of war will be inevitable, holding both Gazan civilians and much of the rest of the Middle East hostage to Hamas's aims.
An Israeli ground campaign would come at an extremely high cost. If it proceeds, invading Israeli soldiers will surely lose their lives, and there will be even more Palestinian casualties, a tragedy Hamas has ensured by embedding itself and its military capability in communities, using hospitals, mosques and schools to store its ammunition. But defeating Hamas cannot be done only with strategic strikes from the air, any more than we were able to root out ISIS in Mosul, Iraq, or Raqqa, Syria, from the air. In that fight, the United States had local partners who did the terrible and costly ground fighting in cities while our forces largely devastated them from above.
What would a defeat of Hamas mean? It would mean its military infrastructure, much of which is physically connected to civilian infrastructure, was largely destroyed and its leadership decimated, leaving the group without the capacity to block a reconstruction for demilitarization formula for Gaza, as it did in the past. In essence, this would mean there would be no war-making capacity in Gaza and that capacity could not be rebuilt.
That formula must guide the day-after reality in Gaza. It would require Israel to remain in Gaza after the fighting ends until it could hand over to some kind of an interim administration to prevent a vacuum and begin the enormous task of reconstruction. That administration should be largely run by Palestinian technocrats — from Gaza, the West Bank or the diaspora — under an international umbrella, which would include Arab and non-Arab nations. The United States would need to mobilize and organize the effort, possibly using an umbrella like the United Nations or the Ad Hoc Liaison Committee donor group to the Palestinians or even acting on the proposal by President Emmanuel Macron of France to use the international anti-ISIS coalition to counter Hamas. Such a coalition could help create the division of labor that would be necessary.
For example, Morocco, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain could provide police — not military forces — to ensure security for the new civil administration and those responsible for reconstruction. Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E and Qatar could provide the bulk of the funding for reconstruction, explaining their roles as necessary to relieve the suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza and help them recover. Canada and others could provide monitoring mechanisms to ensure that assistance would go to its intended purposes.
Of course, the mood in Gaza after the fighting is over will be grim and angry. Thousands of civilians have been killed, according to the Hamas-run Gazan Health Ministry. Vast swaths of the enclave are uninhabitable. But it is worth noting that polls taken not long before the Oct. 7 attack revealed that 62 percent of Gazans were against Hamas breaking the cease-fire at the time with Israel. Getting aid into Gaza quickly and starting the reconstruction effort as soon as the fighting stops could help show residents that life can get better when Hamas is no longer preventing the rebuilding of Gaza.
How Israel would conduct a ground campaign would affect all of this and even whether such a day-after reality could materialize. For Israel to reduce the pressure from its neighbors and the international community to stop its attack, it must demonstrate more convincingly that it is fighting Hamas and is not trying to punish Palestinian civilians. It must create safe corridors for humanitarian assistance, including from Israeli territory through the Kerem Shalom crossing point. To alleviate the suffering, it should allow international groups, such as Doctors Without Borders, to operate safely there and include Israeli doctors who can set up field hospitals — something they have experience doing in Syria and Ukraine.
Israel's political leaders need to clearly and publicly emphasize they will leave Gaza and lift the siege after Hamas has been militarily defeated and largely disarmed. They must communicate that they understand a political resolution is needed with the Palestinians more generally. That is not a message Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is now conveying, given the shock in Israel and the makeup of his government. But it is one Israel's partners in the region need to hear — and soon.
There are no easy solutions to Gaza, but there is only one path forward in this war. An outcome that leaves Hamas in control will doom not just Gaza but also much of the rest of the Middle East.
Dennis Ross is a former U.S. envoy to the Middle East. He is now the counselor at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and teaches at Georgetown University.
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This article is by someone who understands and knows the situation in the Middle East. It is worth reading.
Historically, Hamas in the past has broken every cease fire with Israel they have ever agreed to. The only reason Hamas agrees to cease fires is to allow them to regroup and rearm for the next series of attacks. Hamas has had zero interest in peace with Israel. Hamas version of peace is one without the existence of Israel and Jews in the world. Terrorist savages like Hamas simply cannot be trusted to keep their word.
As all of my comments on this topic have already indicated, I am 100% in agreement with every word, every sentence, every point made in that article. Yes, there will be collateral damage, yes there will be attempts to bring about a cease fire, yes there will be world wide demonstrations and protests favouring Hamas, yes it will kindle more than the usual everyday antisemitism and yes it will rouse the weak-minded to favour the "underdog" even though the "underdog" had to have known that their barbaric slaughter of Israelis would provoke the bleeding hearts into FURTHER despising Israel and the Jews. DON"T STOP THE INVASION ISRAEL, until you have cut off the head to tail of Hamas, just like Hamas cut off the heads of Israeli babies and children on October 7.
Perrie, I found and have now completed reading the article you shared with in another article (locked now):
Very interesting.
I have a Palestinian friend (whom I did not even know he was Palestinian until just before this occurred and we were talking about something other) I will get a 'word' from on this.
Thank you for sharing.
To be clear, Hamas committed a grave crime in Israel by going after civilians. Full stop. But these civilian casualties rising in the inverse even before IDF ground forces do their 'work' is horrific and the world will not soon forget or forgive. Sorry to say, but it's true. It's true. I support going after Hamas, nevertheless.
I make a sharp distinction between Hamas and Palestinian rank and file civilians. I, we, have to be consistent about this.
How can the IDF do that without risking civilian casualties?
How did the U.S. go after the Taliban and the leader of Iraq (Hussein) without deliberately 'smoking' civilians? Consider their "best practices." In addition, drop leaflets on the populace asking civilians to turn in Hamas members (a 'Win-win'). Package and air-drop laser pointers with directions to use them to point out Hamas quarters and spaces for destruction. Be creative. Save lives. Civilian lives matter.
No one knows how many civilians have died in Iraq after our 2003 invasion. At least 280,771 have died from direct war related violence caused by the U.S. and our allies .
I know civilians have died, 'dude.' That is not the point unless you are implying or asserting the U.S. killed 280,771 "direct war" civilians DELIBERATELY. Is that your assertion?
What is your point, dude?
And believe it or not merely "going after civilians" is not the worst of it. I'd been reading a lot of articles that gave more information. Instead of intellectually analyzing the nuances of how Israel should respond, and what does "proportionate response" mean, IMO I've haven't seen much coverage of what really happened.
So I found an excellent article and just seeded it. (Among other things, if you were wondering why after the attack Israel became so adamant about totally eliminating Hamas (instead of just eliminating a few of their leaders and retreating)--I think this article will help us all have a better understanding of what actually transpired during Hamas' attack
Hamas Senior Official Storms Out Of BBC Interview After Being Pressed On Civilian Carnage Inside Israel
From the articles and comments I've been reading on the issue, I think perhaps you should amend that statement to say "...will help MOST OF US have a better understanding...."
Bs. I asked you a question:
And true to form, you responded with a question! Not long from now you will be saying that I don't answer questions—do you?
I will read it on Wednesday sometime. It's too late in the night now for me to do so. BTW, why do you keep implying that I give a damn about Hamas? Throughout my time on this subject matter I have been clearer than you about caring about civilians on both sides of the issue.
Why is this not being received by you and some others here? Are my comments being screened before they reach you and some others here? /s
For the record, this is a complex enough set of issues in the ME and it has the whole world in a 'state' of some kind. And so yes, I want to know the damn truth about what goes on in Palestine and Israel and I will learn this by asking questions and getting answers about matters I don't understand and that are not explicitly clear.
No, I didn’t imply that we killed 280,772 Iraqi civilians deliberately, why would you think that?
People have been wondering that about you since you came here.
Comment was replied to by member it was addressed to so it will stand, charger
is not an applicable word
[Deleted]
What people? Are we talking hundreds or just 3 or 4?
[Deleted]
Please don't lose that childlike curiosity, it's one of your best qualities.
deleted
I n response to me; WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS:
[Deleted]
Perhaps he is merely pointing out that in war, civilians often die, and sometimes in great numbers. That's the nature of war.
Why are civilians dying? Is it a 'given'? With superior firepower and technology are defense departments yet unable to do better than 'willy-nilly' firing? And, that is so easy to state about people in remote parts of the world, but for these civilians it is near and they have no where to run . . .as Richard Engel, in the Middle East recently to his viewers, being told to go south looking to enter an established "safe zone" has not proven to be effectively safe as bombing and shooting are occurring in the southern region too.
I hope we can discuss serious matters with an eye to understanding each other and not just being pitted against each other this November. If not, then we may have to just cease trying for another month. Let's see how it goes.
today's weapons, while highly sophisticated, are not the weapons of video games and are not as precise as to exclude collateral damage.
Having survived two of them myself, as the saying goes, war is in fact Hell. Any war is to both the combatants and the innocent civilians alike.
To answer your question.
Where did all these "dudes" suddenly come from?
Its beginning to feel a lot like the proverbial "Spaghetti Western"!
(Or is it actually an "eponymous" Western of some sort.?)
Yes.
(In wartime its inevitable).
yes, it is.
some folks like to think we have these magical weapons that can seek and kill ONLY the bad guys!
I have no qualms with Israel dealing with Hamas. Full stop. Combatants face combatants. But, one side killing innocent men, women, and children with large, destructive weapons for just being 'around' is wrong. It is wrong when Hamas does it and it is wrong when Israel does it, in my opinion. There has to be a better wage. Either we are consistent with respect for life or its a "swiss-cheese-sized" farce!
I read the article and showed the linked "X" video of the interview. Thank you!
you and others keep insisting there is another way, but never offer what that way actually is.
How should Israel protect its citizens best?
But, it is because of Hamas they are there so the blame for casulties must go to Hamas only
No, Charger. Hamas has no love for their fellow Palestinians (though I hear the Southern Border over there opened up slightly today and that is good), so it is up to others to "grant" compassion around the civilians who can't defend themselves against bombs, bullets, and shelling. If Hamas is the immature one in this, then it falls to Israel to be the Adult in this!
What would you have Israel do to protect its citizens?
I don't have to solve the Palestinian/Israelite civilian crises for these participants. I realize the complexity of the moment, nevertheless. I just want people who say they honor life to stand up for life and not just 'execute as though innocents is not being destroyed and ruined along with the infrastructure of Gaza! I made some small "points" about things that could lead this in a different direction at 1.3.2.
Hamas rules Gaza and uses civilians for it's protection and they started this, it is not Israel's fault how Hamas fights, and that is one of the reasons Hamas must be totally destroyed and an example made of them to warn other groups to behave or be destroyed.
Israel's job is to win the war, destroy Hamas completly and protect Israeli soilders during the war.
I didn't ask you to solve anything.
I just figured as much as you have criticized Israel in how it has handled its response to the terrorist attack, you might actually have some idea of what you would like them to do since you seem pretty clear on what you don't want them to do.
I don't think so. Your comments lead me to believe you don't grasp the predicament that terrorists have put Israel in, or that you particularly care about the citizens of Israel.
I truly believe that every single person who has commented here realizes and cares about innocent lives lost. Many of us who recognize that also realize the futility of dealing with terrorists who imbed themselves among the populace.
Palestinians must take some responsibility for their fate.
OK, I'll bite.
Consider this possibility: At this point my guess is that the citizens of Gaza are, for the most part, not particularly fond of Israelis. So why should they follow Israeli instructions?
(Asking for a friend)
Did it answer the question? Because I seem to remember asking you what it is you are asserting at 1.3.20 and it's still an open question.
I have supported Israel and will continue to do so. And I most definitely and consistently will defend the lives of innocent people who are dying or have the potential to die during this war.
War makes strange bedfellows, eh? Isn't it obvious that if an overwhelming force used its discipline to keep Gazans out of the firing zones (that is Gazans don't have to pick up weapons against Israel) that it can engender "good-will" among the Gazans who have their families, friends, lives, industries caught up in this?
You keep demanding no civilian deaths, and I (along with others) keep telling you that it is impossible considering the tactics of the terrorists.
Your 'solution' will result in Israeli civilian deaths on purpose.
Okay, which "solution" of mine are you referring to, as it's been an extended day. Mine refreshing me what I wrote that will get Israelite civilians killed?
Not at all.
Your attention has solely been on innocent Palestinians. Who work, sleep, eat, pray, and coexist with known terrorists.
Weapons aren't like video games, they are not so precise as to never hit a little off target or maybe the impact of the missile might be judged wrong due to the composition of the building targeted and effect civilians.
Every day that Israel allows Hamas to exist is another day Hamas will fire rockets at Israelis--mostly aimed at civilians. This isn't speculation, this is fact.
This is precisely why Israel urged Palestinians to leave and gave them time before they launched the ground invasion.
It isn't like Israel can just pull up somewhere and call out to Hamas to come fight them.
Personally, I would like to think Palestinians were smart enough to figure out that allowing yourself to be used as human shields for terrorists isn't too healthy and turn on Hamas themselves or by ratting them out to the IDF.
You see to be accepting or comprehending that there are no truly good options for Palestinians in this set of events and circumstances. I agree. So, then, we look for the second best ALTERNATIVE. Richard Engel recently reported that several cities close to Gaza's southern border (including RAFAH?) has been at times under bombardment as well by the IDF. So 'sheltering' in the South of Gaza is not a sure thing for surviving this war.
It has been stated that war is not easy, it's deadly serious. And, I agree. The U.S. under a republican president, George W. Bush, used light-infantry forces to enter the country during the second Iraq war, because of speed, efficiency, and having "prep" the natives for their "insertion" into the country. Thus, the "immune response" from the natives living in those entry spaces for U.S. troops was muted.
Consequently, the lesson learned is one can blunt the reaction to ground force entry if one can prepare the people and inform them that their very lives depend on them understanding that a distinction has been made by "higher ups" to leave commoners unaffected as long at they remain unarmed. That is, their lives, their survival, is not on the line simply because a force is after their so-called, "leaders."
That could the defined "operation": Focus on the terrorists. Save the Innocent. Leave the (unarmed and defenseless) sick/lame/infirm/men, women, children out of the WAR.
Then, as relates to Israel, the "messaging" war becomes more to Israel's liking the world over. Keep blowing up civilians and it is highly probable that Israel will have a new generation of terrorists. . .starting with the WOUNDED children who are too small and injured by bomb blasts and gunfire but live to grow up with their scars and memories of being attacked and who did it to them. And, of course, the disaffected!
I don't think you'll ever get any of my points.
Oh, I can get your points if I have not already, likewise you can get mine too. We just have to 'meld' out points together into something that makes sense for the war and the civilians forced to be a part of it.
That is, somebody has got to be the voice of the victims of war, and they are millions of innocent people who are UNARMED/DETACHED/INJURED/DYING. The world will mourn them and remember who did it to them. I suggest Israel's singular focus on terrorists not be their own undoing. . . trusting that history won't remember cruelty in a different form is still cruelty.
The 2003 Iraq invasion ground forces order of battle:
Doesn't look all that light to me, but a healthy mixture of light, medium and heavy forces.
It was called the "Rumsfield Doctrine" and though controversial it seems to have helped in its own way.
Afghanistan yes, Iraq less so,
The air war preceded the ground war for 7 weeks. Over 100,000 sorties were flown dropping 88,500 tons of bombs, destroying both military and civilian infrastructure and killing over 12,000.
I've learned something today.
Thank you.
“The U.S. under a republican president, George W. Bush, used light-infantry forces to enter the country during the second Iraq war, because of speed, efficiency, and having "prep" the natives for their "insertion" into the country. Thus, the "immune response" from the natives living in those entry spaces for U.S. troops was muted.”
Does that sound like “Shock and Awe” to you?
I realize I'm probably missing enormous amounts of stuff here, but I don't even know what I don't know.
So if you would, explain it like you might to someone with very little military knowledge... like a small child.... or a CNN journalist.
Great. What's in dispute, again?
No problem. You're welcome. I can still see Secretary Rumsfeld at his podium saying words like, "Nimble" about military crafts/ground forces.
What is Your understanding of the "shock and awe" that took place in Iraq?
Nope. This is not Star Trek where we have sophisticated sensors that can locate things things and people underground as well as on the surface.
The dude abides.
It is very basic common sense. Copies need to be sent to Secretary of State Blinken and president Biden.
I think we're about to be given a textbook example of what should happen to a lying autocrat trying to alter the judicial process to keep from being prosecuted for corruption, while supported by radical religious sycophants in government.
Really? Why did you vote up this article?
I support my friends. besides, it was easier than putting on a maga hat, buying a torch, and driving to march in charlottesville like an antisemite trumpster dipshit to prove a point...
I'll take your word on it, not having any personal experience of my own with it.
How much easier was it for you?
But you aren't really a supporter of Israel, are you.
So why did you vote this article up?
of course I am, although my mom's eastern european lineage runs a close second to the pasta spinners on my dad's side of the family. I ended up with an anglo saxon last name, so I told my kids we were scotch-irish and let them skip going to any bullshit religious madrasa.
try reading the first 4 words of 1.4.3 out loud to yourself.
Lol.
try reading the first 4 words of 1.4.3 out loud to yourself.
If you were truly a friend of hers, you wouldn't be trolling and taunting.
an ignorant comment. your definitions of those 2 words are only shared by a handful here...
Obviously by mistake.
pffft.
Certainly Hamas must be dealt with. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just being obtuse and/or disingenuous. The real problem here in my opinion are the people who fund organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah.
Specifically, Iran. That’s the head of this snake.
Yes. But eliminating Iran (or more accurately their present horrendous gov't) isn't easy. And probably not even possible at this time.
Eliminating Hamas won't be easy-- and their will many casualties on the side of those who try it.
But.
But it will be easier than overthrowing the government current Theocracy of Iran.
Like Palestine, Iran’s change must come from within. The rest of the world can help expedite this process with sanctions etc.
Releasing billions for them to use as they please, is not the answer.
Iran’s change must come from within
They've been there, tried that:
Iranian Green Movement
Now there's the "Women, Life, Freedom" movement (Although it actually includes much more than Woman's Rights):
Mahsa Amini and Woman, Life and Freedom Movement in Iran awarded top EU human rights prize
True. And not only that--IIRC Iran was recently appointed Head of The UN Committee of Human Rights!
And I thought you were joking. I looked it up. Maybe not the head, but....
Iran's appointment to chair the 2023 UN Human Rights Council Social Forum
LINK ->
When I was 16 years old, and that was 70 years ago, I went with my parents to NYC where we saw a couple of wonderful original cast Broadway shows - Guys and Dolls, and The King and I. While there I toured the United Nations building, watched the great V.K.Krishna Menon speak to the General Assembly, and I thought how wonderful an organization it was, after all, it created the State of Israel. But then the UN became anti-Israel and is becoming more anti-Israel as time goes on, and as far as I'm concerned the whole building should be bulldozed into the adjoining river.
I dont think too many people are hoping for an outcome that leaves Hamas in control.
I thank that many would willingly trade of Hamas remaining in control for a cessation of hostilities tomorrow, even you.
I think there is probably a way to get Hamas out of power without killing tens of thousands of civilians. It would take time though.
For the 100th time on this site, I hope the people who perpetrated the massacre are killed by the Israelis.
HOW??? The whole reason Hamas embedded themselves into the civilian population was to make it impossible to do so. It is brilliant in its horrible goal.
Other countries in the Middle East have shown a willingness to work with the Israelis and the US. I think that with a concerted effort it could have been made known to Hamas that your day is done, because of the Oct 7th massacre , and we will have to have authority in Gaza turned over to someone else, some sort of multinational force temporarily in charge. The individuals responsible for the massacre could be identified, tracked down , and given justice over a period of time.
Yes, to Hamas, Gazans are only useful camouflage and body armor.
I hope you're stipulating Iran in that statement, because it is the Islamic terrorist country of Iran that is one of the countries that funds the terrorism of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the IJ.
You act like they are not even human beings, just a tool or appendage of Hamas. Israel has nuclear (as Trump might say), why not just turn the whole place into ashes ?
I’m very aware that they are human beings, humans that collectively have made bad decisions for decades.
That truly would earn international condemnation and provide greater motivation for regional powers to obtain the same technology. It also might be hard to keep the fallout from drifting across Israel or another country.
Judging by Hamas' actions toward Gazans, that's exactly what Gazans of all ages are ... human shields used as Hamas' body armor.
I thank that many would willingly trade of Hamas remaining in control for a cessation of hostilities tomorrow, even you.
WTF? That a contradiction in and of itself-- some kind of a moron (Probably an oxy-moron!). If Hamas remains in power you can't have a cessation of hostilities. The two are mutually exclusive.
Ad Iran probably still doesn't but it seems Iranis very close to having it.
But here's something that at first might seem strange-- in all practicality-- neither Iran nor Israel could use nukes. (In some ways its like the situation of India vs Pakistan-- both of which have nukes).
Well, to complicate the matter. so does China (PRC)-- and they really won't use them against India either.
There might be a temporary cessation to allow Hamas to rearm and resupply itself.
I think the peace deal that Saudi was negotiating with Israel could have obtained similar concessions. Iran and Hamas were desperate to keep that from happening, hence 7 Oct. Now, even the most peace loving Israelis have turned their backs on the Palestinians like the neighboring Arab Countries and Egypt has.
The Israeli attitude started turning hard core with the 2nd Intifada, with the suicide bombings of Israeli civilians and is culminating with the horror of 7 Oct. They think you can fool me once and fool me twice, but no more.
And just how would we go about that?
I think according to the author that is not in the cards.
"Over the past two weeks, when I talked to Arab officials throughout the region whom I have long known, every single one told me that Hamas must be destroyed in Gaza. They made clear that if Hamas is perceived as winning, it will validate the group's ideology of rejection, give leverage and momentum to Iran and its collaborators and put their own governments on the defensive.
But they said this in private. Their public postures have been quite different. Only a few Arab states openly condemned the Hamas massacre of more than 1,400 people in Israel. Why? Because Arab leaders understood that as Israel retaliated and Palestinian casualties and suffering grew, their own citizens would be outraged and they needed to be seen as standing up for the Palestinians, at least rhetorically."
Maybe we all could get them first to wear the Star and Crescent Moon ☪️ on their clothing.
To work with Israel and the US Hamas would have to repudiate their charter and abandon their "from the river to the sea" stance. Two things they are just totally unwilling to do in the foreseeable future.
@ JohnRussell
There's no way your dream solution will work with those who have proven time and again that they will never stop with their crusade against Israel and the Jews.
And if not willingly being such, they could have overcome Hamas no differently than the common people did in the French and Russian revolutions.
I'm glad I was able to open that link. It caused my first laugh out loud of the day.
@ Right Down the Center
I'm sorry I'm only able to vote up your comment just once. I'm sure Hamas knew it would get the bleeding hearts activated.
From the river to the sea, make it Hamas free
Hamas and their liberal supporters remind me of an old story about a young man who killed both of his parents and then demanded mercy from the court because he was an orphan.
I'm not suggesting the US or Israel "work with" Hamas, I am suggesting that the US and Israel work with the regional countries that are open to working with Israel put pressure on Hamas.
Everyone who dies in this war will have died in vain if 10 years from now these people , on both sides are doing the same things they've done over the past 75 years. It hasnt created lasting peace there and it never will.
and there are those who would fall for that
So you want to kill every man woman and child in Gaza, is that it?
And your proposals will never work and the only thing that will is that Hamas be totally eradicated NOW by doing whatever it takes to do so.
I did not say that - you don't need to put words into my mouth to support your bleeding heart comments..
You refuse to separate the status of civilians in Gaza from Hamas. If all of Hamas is to be killed (and Im sure that is the goal) then isnt it logical to conclude that all the other people in Gaza, indistinguishable from Hamas in sympathies, should die too?
We have numerous people on this site strongly implying its ok if civilians die because they either voted for Hamas in an election or they failed to overthrow Hamas.
Is this shit serious?
Exactly, these children shouldn’t be held accountable for their immature actions.
What I DID say in my first comment is this:
What was said in that article is this:
Now DON'T make up what I DIDN'T say. Your doing so is offensive and WAY out of line. IMO your accusations are going beyond the line of what should be considered a contravention of the CoC.
What you have said , basically, its that its tough shit for the civilians because they didnt throw off Hamas in an election or by revolution. That being used as "human shields" could have been prevented by them but it wasnt.
So that justifies potentially tens of thousands of them dying?
Many Arabs would be willing to work with Israel. Even many "Palestinians".
But anyone who's joined a terrorist organization would not. (Especially one whose goal is to exterminate all the Jews).
Oh, now you changed your story, and you're walking back saying this to me:
So I was right in what I accused you of. You assumed the worst when I said this:
"...should have little concern for what happens to the Gazan civilians....they bought it, so now they can live or die because of it as far as I'm concerned." Have you some kind of inside information that children in Gaza can vote? Or that they can take part in overthrowing their government? Did I say they HAD to die? I said they can "LIVE or die" did I not? And I think I would probably kill myself or commit myself to an institution if I was CONCERNED about every person in the world I don't know, and so whether they live or die for a terrorist cause is if NO importance to me.
I will flag the next comment you make that puts words in my mouth or that you try to twist to mean something other than what I mean.
A pointless question to ask of John, I think. John doesn't care that much about people as individuals, in my estimation. It's the ideology that matters to him. We've got to push the ideology. Just look at his post of 3.1.3 . He may as well have said that if we just flood Gaza with Unicorns everything would just magically work out. In actuality, John uses the Palestinians the same way Hamas does.
Um, I think the current plan of eliminating Hamas via lead poisoning does it better and faster.
That would be correct, to an extent. The average German citizen bore responsibility for allowing the Nazis to come to power. Hamas is not the Foreign Legion. It isn't made up of foreigners. It is made up of Palestinians.
C'mon, John! Are you not constantly puking over America because of our history and how we're all complicit in your imagined view of our racist society? How the hell can we be complicit in your fantasy view of our country but, somehow, Palestinians aren't for Hamas???
For some reason Albert Einstein's definition of insanity comes to mind.
How likely do you think that will happen at this point? (Some of their rulers might be tempted to take that risk-- but they themselves are scared of the crazies in their own country-- "The Arab Street".
Me too.
But realistically that won't change much.
And just what sort of concerted effort would that be? (i.e. an effort that actually works).
Are you freaking kidding??
Seems brilliant to me---set off a nuclear bomb right next to your own freaking country.
What could POSSIBLY go wrong there?!?!?!?!?!?
In case anyone is unaware of it-- there's a common misconception that should be cleared. many people assume that since Hamas is such a barbaric terror organization, they nust have seized power by an undemocratic military coup.
But that is not the case-- they were elected by the so-called "Palestinians"-- and in a fair election!
But that is not the case-- they were elected by the so-called "Palestinians"-- and in a fair election!
How could that be-- only the most naive person would believe an election in an Arab country could actually be fair. But this one was.
Why-- because there were many international observers who closely monitored it and said so. (IIRC, ex-president Jimmy Carter was an observer..and said the election was fair.).
And from everything i've read from various sources-- it was fair. And Hamas won.
Which is one of the reasons why the Israeli government and IDF should have little concern for what happens to the Gazan civilians - they bought it, so now they can live or die because of it as far as I'm concerned. If the Gazans didn't want Hamas to stay in power, they could have revolted. The French and the Russian people had the guts to do it. Surely the civilians FAR outnumber the militants.
Obviously. But much of the "politically correct" mainstream media doesn't like to mention that-- nor do some of the nmutcases demonstrating for a "Free" Palestine.
Sewn the wind, reap the whirlwind.
They don't have a tradition of overthrowing leaders.
Remember the Arab Spring (supposed to totally reform the Arab world). It had little effect (Has it significantly reformed any Arab country? I don't remember,
Neither did the French or the Russians or even the Americans against the British. But when the disagreement with what one's government is doing, especially like using its civilians as human shields in other words sacrifice them as fodder, then normally traditions can fail and civilians may do what they can to stop it. But if there IS agreement with what their government is doing, well, the people will just acquiesce, and might even cheer them on.
It doesn't take "too many" to wreak havoc.
How many Arabs total were on the hijacked planes during 9/11? Look at what they accomplished.
Now google how many Arabs there are in the world. What percentage of the world's Arab population hijacked those airplane-- the % was certainly not "too many"
How many Arabs total were on the hijacked planes during 9/11? Look at what they accomplished.
Now google how many Arabs there are in the world. What percentage of the world's Arab population hijacked those airplane-- the % was certainly not "too many"
And many people refer to the attack on the World Trade Center, But " the attack"-- is misleading because it was actually the second attack. (But again, there weren't exactly "too many" perps in that attack either):
7 Facts About the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing
The attack by a group of Islamic fundamentalists announced the growing threat of terrorism on US soil.
.
Interesting to all so see with those billions of Muslims and the number of majority Muslim countries and their land masses. Then compare that to the number of Jews and the size of Israel. Apparently one little country, the size of New Jersey with 7.5 million Jews is one country too many for many Muslims.
Apparently much of the Muslim world (as well as their "idiot utiles") believe that ISRAEL HAS TOO MUCH LAND! (Israel in red, Muslim countries in Green)
Image source:
Are they right?
Thanks Krishna, a very telling graphic. Too bad our geographically and historically uneducated don’t understand it.
You're welcome!
You can barely see it
Incidentally (and admittedly this is a minor point) I have seen many versions of that map. And because Israel is so small, its hard to see the outline of the country.
But that map has one minor inaccuracy: it actualy shows Israel to be larger than it is!!!
How could that be? Well it shows Gaza to be part of Israel, because the mapshows when Gaza was occupied by Israel!
So that land is no longer part of Israel as the occupation has ended and now Gaza is a self-governing , independent "Palestinian" country!
There should be zero tolerance for a "humanitarian cease-fire" as is currently encouraged by the UN Security Council. IOW, remove Russia, China, and Iran (for starters).
See post #1.1 above.
There should be zero tolerance for a "humanitarian cease-fire" as is currently encouraged by the UN Security Council. IOW, remove Russia, China, and Iran (for starters).
Excellent idea! (Now why didn't I think of that?)
WW3 anybody?
World wars have started over less reasons.
What’s you recommendation to prevent that?
I have none.
Smarter folk than I have been trying for decades.
Seems Iran and Putin want WW3.
They use proxies such as Hamas to start it.
Putin can't even win against Ukraine.
Iran has recently launched drone strikes on U.S..
Iran and Russia are both weak at this point.
Maybe it's time to slap them down.
I’m good with that.
Same here.
The Abraham Accords wouldn't have totally guaranteed peace worldwide, but it would've gone a long way. An implementation was progressing. In fact I've seen videos of Jews-- even Israelis-- in some of the Gulf states saying how safe it is there.
(Some said they felt safer there than they would in many countries in Europe!)
But Hamas' recent actions have put the Abraham Accords on hold. (Some people have argued that that's why Hamas picked this time for their attack on Israel-- to halt progress on that).
Give all world leaders Magic Mushrooms or Peyote!
Wow. Cheat shot. I guess it ain't as low as the lynch "queers" thread.
"(...Hamas picked this time for their attack on Israel--to halt progress on that).
I think it's more like Iran picked the time rather than Hamas since Iran probably did most of the planning.
Whatever Israel chooses to do there are going to be huge repercussions. If they continue to bomb Gaza and then follow with a ground attack the casualties will be huge on both sides and the civilians in the middle of them will die as well. From a recent poll that was posted here, there is 49% that want to hold off on the ground attack. No question as to what hold-off means. There is also a good number that do not want to attack at all...There will be consequences for Israel on simply attacking within Israel, let alone in Gaza and world opinion. If Israel does not attack and destroy Hamas they can expect more attacks. If they destroy Hamas who is going to govern Gaza? Israel doesn't want to they have been down that road, Egypt had the said experience and wants no part of Gaza.
IMO, Israel is between a rock and a hard place. They will be damned if they do and damned if they don't and anything in between will be seen as weakness.
Urban warfare is devastating and the KIA and WIA on both sides are going to be huge. And the world is going to see this and you can bet there will be massive demonstrations to stop the attack.
And Israel under the current situation has no choice but to attack and destroy Hamas since I do not believe that Hamas is open now or in the future to moderate the hate of Israel and try to reach a peaceful settlement it is, kill or be killed and the destruction of Isreal as a country and a people.
It is best to try to understand what this is going to be like in the real world, not Rambo world. Each of those 155mm howitzer shells that lands in Gaza or rocket that lands in Israel has the power that the concussion alone will blow out your ears and if your helmet is strapped it can rip your face off and that doesn't even be began to understand the wounds from shrapnel or from burns. After this is over and the fighting is done there will be a number of Israeli soldiers that will need a whole lot of psychological help along with missing arms legs and TBI. The effects on the civilians will be even worse and even the Israeli citizens will be affected. The survivors will have two options they will hate the enemy for the rest of their lives and they will withdraw and try to forget it all, neither works well. The Palestinians will be the same with a whole new army of fanatics.
So, as always there will be no winners only those that have not lost as much.
Israel has enough troops to have put a ring around Gaza letting only the basic necessities for the civilian population in. They could have just "frozen" the situation and let time do its thing. I dont see what the big rush is, they could bottle up Hamas and make them irrelevant to Israels safety. Now it seems likely the hostages will all die, and many thousands of civilians will die. I dont see why they couldnt put this offensive into Gaza on indefinite hold. Israel holds all the cards in terms of the future of Gaza. That would still be the case no matter when they went in.
Correction: Israel and Egypt. (As I'm sure you're aware {?}, Gaza has borders with two countries).
So even if Israel was able to have an airtight blockade around Gaza, they wouldn't bear complete responsibility- if Egypt opened its border.
(But of course it's easier to put all the blame on Israel & ignore the fact that Egypt's border is closed.)
Apparently most Israelis don't either-- support for an instant ground invasion has plummeted in recent polls.
Asked if the military should immediately escalate to a large-scale ground offensive, 29% of Israelis agreed, 49% said "it would be better to wait"
Israel holds all the cards in terms of the future of Gaza.
Do you think that would still be true if Hamas continues to hold power-- and keeps getting their rockets re=supplied by Iran?
And so far the clashes with Iran's proxy Hizb'Allah on Israel's Northern border have been relatively minor. What would happen if H. escalated and Israel was forced to send large numbers of North?
You keep saying that but don't say how the aid would only go to civilian population. Also it seems many of the people praising Hamas are doing so because Israel was limiting what aid was going into Gaza. So it sounds like you are promoting more of the same ignoring what Einstein said about that.
Not all. Yes, most. But not all:
Female Hostage Freed in ‘Daring’ Israeli Ground Operation
Israel has enough troops to have put a ring around Gaza letting only the basic necessities for the civilian population in.
But here's the problem. There's more than enough food, water, oil, etc already in Gaza. And also many very safe bomb shelters.
Getting more in isn't the problem. The problem is that someone (I won't mention names) is deliberately keeping it away from the Gazans. Guess who?
(Hint: It ain't the Jews)
I think many people are thinking if Hamas (the terrorist group) is destroyed than the Gazans will finally be free to form a new government-- which will be democratic and peace-loving. Which is quite an assumption.
I don't know what the answer is-- maybe UN forces could take over?
A compromise would be for the Palestinian Authority to take over, as inept as it may be. That way all the humanitarian donations being provided to the PA from its supporting nations around the world could increase their being used to re-arm its militants and fund the payments to the Palestinians who murder Jews and support the murderers in Israeli prisons and their families, and with the Gazans added, it could help the PA to increase the number of potential murderers. Israel might have to import more bulldozers to tear down the homes of the families of the murderers.
Like Kosovo they have been there since 1999.
I don't know, Krish. Although it might be a solution I can't think of a better one a the moment.
Might be a good idea. One possible problem-- the two groups hate each other. If the PA took over, Hamas would murder them (Before applying the most gruesome of tortures first )
That might be the best solution as the PA and Fatah party are still governing in the West Bank, and many Palestinians feel that the one of the biggest setbacks for the Palestinian people was the split in power between Gaza and the West Bank. Interesting article here about how Hamas came to power in place of Fatah in Gaza violently in 2007, after having won a primary legislature election in 2006 and forming their own Government.
Such a transition could also be overseen by a UN coalition to ensure that the people of Gaza are properly supplied with necessary aid during and after the transition, monitor reconstruction efforts, and address the corruption that resulted in Gazans voting for a shit show like Hamas in the first place.
The scary part is how much support Hamas had, especially in Gaza, months before the Oct 7 attack. It would be interesting to see what a similar poll might find now.
That is a problem that only exposure to more information (rather than constant Hamas and militant anti-Israel propaganda), and education can solve. Another way that assistance from a UN coalition could help.
Hope much do you know about how the UN functions?
For example, did you know they have a Human Rights commission?
Sounds good, eh?
UN taps Islamic Republic of Iran to chair Human Rights Council Social Forum, sparks outrage
Foxes
Guarding
Henhouse
And you can't limit the "no winners" to Israel and Gaza alone. What is bound to take place will have consequences not only for the people in Gaza and Israel, but for those in the West Bank, and in fact for both Muslims and Jews around the world. However, what is bound to take place in Gaza is not only inevitable, but absolutely necessary.
I didn't, when I said no winner I meant to include the ME all countries with a Muslim population and Jewish communities around the world. It will have a profound effect that will be felt for decades.
Agreed.
But-- what's the time frame?
20 years?
I'd been following events in the Middle East for years (But stopped not too long ago).
Hamas regularly stepped up attacks on Israel (about every two years) and Israel contained it pretty quickly.
One of the things that Israel did differently this time is commit to totally destroying Hamas. And the bombing is considerably more intense.
And they are going to be risking many, many more Israeli lives then in the past.
This time is different.
Why?
I could be wrong, but I think I know the answer.
But first I'm curious to see what other people think.Why is the Israeli response so much stronger now-- and why do they seem to care even less than usual about public opinion?
There is a justification for a ceasefire to discuss terms of surrender. Hamas can end the destruction and bloodshed in Gaza by surrendering. If Hamas stopped fighting then Israel doesn't need to continue fighting. The only viable alternative is for Israel to continue pounding Gaza until the Palestinians begin tossing heads over the fence. Palestinians celebrate the beheading of children so taking Hamas heads shouldn't be a problem.
Destroying Hamas will require finding and destroying weapons stockpiles, tunnels, and infrastructure used by Hamas. The IDF must go into Gaza to destroy things and kill people. Hamas can stop all this today by simply surrendering. That's not going to save the infrastructure used by terrorists but destroying that infrastructure would certainly be less bloody.
But how likely is it that a true terror group-- be they Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hizb'Allah. or Isis-- would surrender? They must fight to the death.
(Especially Islamists.who actually believe that if they die fighting in the defense of Islam they are guaranteed a spot in a wonderful "Heaven"?)
If these groups represent governing authority then the Palestinian state is a terror state that does not have a right to exist. Gaza has given up the right to exist as a state by allowing safe haven for terrorists. There cannot be a two state solution when terrorists govern one of the states. (That has been one argument for fighting Iran. Iran is a state sponsor of terror therefore Iran does not have a right to exist as a state. Terrorists and terrorist states do not have a right to exist. Period.)
(BTW, that's the reason Ukraine wants Russia to be declared a terrorist state. Fighting terrorists was also the justification for Kiev starting the war in Donbas. Kiev claims that Donbas does not have a right to exist as autonomous states because they are controlled by terrorists. That doesn't have anything to do with Ukrainian national sovereignty.)
Social activists have told us there can be no peace without justice. Social activists have also claimed that terrorism is a means to a just end. But terrorists have no right to exist. Social justice can never be obtained using terrorism. Terrorists do not have a right to exist so there cannot be justice for terrorists.
Near the beginning of that war I remember Putin trying to justify his invasion because he claimed Ukraine was controlled by Nazis-- he wanted to rid Ukraine of its Nazi overlords. (Of course it was all a lie)>
So he pushed the notion that Ukraine was run by a sort of terrorists (Nazis). I don't think anyone believed the lie...
Comparing the war in Ukraine with the war in Israel is pretty much an apples & oranges comparison. Making that comparison means Russia would be Iran and Ukraine would be Hezbollah or Hamas. Biden has tried to make the case that NATO is the equivalent of Israel.
Does NATO have a right to exist the same as Israel? That's why the United States has involved itself in Ukraine. Biden is supporting NATO and not Ukraine.
Should we recognize that the two state solution was really intended to weaken Iran? Should we recognize that nation building Palestine was only intended to influence geopolitical tensions and conflicts in the Middle East? Can we separate the two state solution from the western hunger for Middle Eastern oil?
WTF?
What so what do you think are the odds of a terrorist organization like Hamas surrenduring. And to Jews?
(And don't forget Hamas not only a religious organization-- but they are religious fanatics!)
Yes-- that's the way normal people think. But remember-- this is a true terrorist organization.
In addition, their an organization of extremist religious fanatics.
Hamas surrenders or the war continues. At this point there isn't a lot of wiggle room.
How many of the Palestinians killed by Israeli air strikes were Hamas? The Palestinians were warned and given two weeks to move 12 miles. The Palestinians in northern Gaza have made a choice that will have consequences.
This is not the article and definitely not the video that I wish to share about my comment in another place where the verbiage: "extermination" was meant. I am in a rush at this time and this will point in its direction with some effect and I will continue to carry out the two things I 'promised' ASAP:
WTF? No one wants to expel them from Gaza-- because no one wants these assholes in their country! (And yes, that includes the Arab countries who know from experience how totally barbaric these people are!)
And BTW one reason those Gazans who want to leave can't--because their "Egyptian brothers" won't let them leave via the Egyptian controlled Egypt-Gaza border crossing (Rafah)
???
After the war is over, Israel will leave.
Israel (and for that matter Egypt) wants none of it!!! Both of them at different times had occupied Gaza. In fact after they left both had the opportunity to go back in and re-occupy it-- neither Egypt nor Israel wanted to.They both know what a place ruled by a terrorist islike.
So if Israel doesn't want to occupy it and leaves-- how is that a problem for Gazans?
I am not concerned about it. My comment was a post about a discussion between Perrie and myself on a locked article. I am supplying it for her, chiefly and keeping a 'promise.'
Well OK then. If you want to keep a promise to Perrie, I an not concerned about that-- in fact I'm not particularly concerned about anything you say.
(Although I do like to debate things and even hear different opinions than my own. IN doing that I learn a lot, whether its on topic or not)).
Didn't Trump say that Jared had fixed the whole problem?
Yet one more reason for Trump not to be president.
What was the quote?
Must've been a different problem. (Although the only one that I can think of that Jared fixed was "666".
666 Fith Avenue is a large bldg on 5th Avenue NYC I don't remember all the details but basically Jared owned it and couldn't make the YUGE mortgage payments. Big problem!
So Jared fixed the problem .He got some wealthy Saudi Prince (or maybe it was from another Gulf country) to pay it off. (maybe even buy it? I ferget.)
So Jared fix his money problem and of course the Saudi foxed his problem (Not having close access to Trump)
I:m not sure-- mostly I have Trump on "Ignore", figuratively speaking. . Unless he says really funny, or lies-- then I enjoy listening.
In keeping with my saying I would find and post an article mentioning 'extermination' (of Palestinians) I submit this article. To be clear, the original news story mentioning that word was live-video, but this will suffice:
IMPORTANT NOTE: I only post the below to keep my word to deliver 'it' not because of any personal agenda as I have no agenda in the Middle East:
Exactly, we don't have an agenda to protect them anymore than their neighboring Arabs.
That is so stupid on its face. Their "neighboring Arabs" are not fighting them. Israel is. If you intend to play games with my comments then I guess I better start playing games with yours too! Watch this space.
Of course not. Because Israel lies between them and neighboring Arabs (Jordan, Syria, Lebanon.How would they get through Israel to attack neighboring Arab states?
Well, one exception. Gaza borders Egypt, but they can't fight Egypt because Egypt won't let them in!
Of course they could fire rockets at Egyptian civilian targets (like they do to Israel). But Egypt is not as restrained as Israel-- it won't fuck around with terrorists!
I'd rather not.
Exactly, Palestinian neighbors aren’t fighting with them or protecting them, they want nothing to do with them.
Krishna, be clear: Are you trolling me or is this for real?
Their Arab neighbors are not fighting the Palestinians because they are on their own lands and its a Palestine/Israel set of issues/policies/possessions. I don't know this to be true, but it could be that other states want this to end (one way or another like the rest of the world). This has been a set of issues in the ME for too damn long, anyway.
Well depends what you mean by the term "Arab neighbours". If by "Arab neighbours" you mean countries that actually have a border with Gaza then there's only one (Egypt).
So why isn't Egypt fighting any Gazans? After all, Egypt has had several bad experiences with people from Gaza. (For example, Gazans crossing into Egypt and murdering Egyptians. Egypt does not like that).
So rather than fighting the terrorists, Egypt just keeps their border very tightly closed (and well guarded!)
Their Arab neighbors are not fighting the Palestinians because they are on their own lands
Well depends what you mean by the term "Arab neighbours". Also what you mean by "their own lands".
If by the term "Arab neighbours" you mean countries such Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon... maybe even Iraq, Sudan, ...Libya (?) well the reason they are not fighting the "Palestinians" is because...well...why should they? In most of these cases the so-called "Palestinians" start it by attacking an Arab country.
If by the term "Arab neighbours" you mean countries such Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon... maybe even Iraq, Sudan, ...Libya (?) well the reason they are not fighting the "Palestinians" is because...well...why should they? In most of these cases the so-called "Palestinians" start it by attacking an Arab country.
Of course, now that I think of it, at various times in history, some of the Arab neighbours have been fighting the so-called "Palestinians". One example that comes to mind" Black September" * :
Smoke rises over Amman during clashes between the Jordanian military and the Palestinian fedayeen , 1 October 1970
Black September ( Arabic : أيلول الأسود Aylūl al-ʾAswad ), was an armed conflict between Jordan , led by King Hussein , and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), led by chairman Yasser Arafat .
Notes:
* 1 . "Amman" is the capital of the country of Jordan.
2. Kudos to Drinker of the Wry who had mentioned this previously.
Basically this was a case of "Palestinians" initiating an attack-- and war-- against a near-by Arab country. (Jordan). Arabs killing Arabs.
In addition, the ever peace-loving Iran had fighters involved, and of course peace-loving fighters from Syria couldn't miss an opportunity to create more blood shed.
Their "neighboring Arabs" are not fighting them. Israel is.
Of course the other part of that is this: Their fellow Arabs aren't helping them either!
This . . . follows from what?
Which. . . follows from what?
Palestinians have been told to leave for 3 WEEKS now.
Surely they recognize that Israel isn't playing games here.
Civilian deaths are unfortunate. But there really isn't a way to avoid them when they insist on staying there and Hamas--their leaders--use them as shields.
Well in all fairness-- some have gone to the Southern most part of Gaza (Rafah Gate crossing, controlled by Egypt). But last I heard Egypt won't let them through.Will probably be forced to if enough international pressure.
If only we had such a world organization that could accomplish that.
That would be swell.
Well there's always the UN.
In fact I believe they just appointed Iran to be the head of the Human Rights Committee-- so that should help.
./sarc
Update: I heard today that Egypt has been letting some throuh, but i think its mainly those that have foreign passports.
Good job!
And if you want to do even better theree's a wonder site that has lots of greats articles like that. IOn principal I wont type its name but its:
st
1rm
2ron3
Put those 3 parts together in order starting with st. Then substitute letter o for numeral 1.
f for 2. And t for 3
(I don't know if it still exists but its claims to be the largest of its kind....but please don't seed anything from it or link to it)
Jewish Voice for Peace is a group that does not believe that Israel should exist. Full stop. Anything from this group is full on propaganda and I don't discuss any garbage they produce.
Jewish Voice for Peace members are no more Jewish than Jews for Jesus.
My favorite group: "Queers for Palestine".
Whenever I hear that name I keep thinking we should take up a collection and give them a free treip (to the Arab country of their choice).
"A good time will be had by all".
Iran would be a good choice. They could enjoy the view of Tehran from up high while they're being hung by the neck from a crane.
Yes. I didn't know that about 'internal matters.' The point I made (on the other article) was somebody was using the verbiage: Palestinian "extermination" - in interviews. That it was not my personal use. Therefore, I produced people using this verbiage.
That said, as a Black American I am keen to observe that in the United States, there were in this country and still existing here now, people and groups in the majority who aid Black Americans in getting something resembling fairness and inclusion when others in the majority think less of them for doing so.
And with providing that, I can now consider that 'completed.' And move on.
Okay. . . that crossed a red line. I see you differently now.
By the way, I am sitting here thinking about something from the article you shared with me the other day. . . . It was about Hamas stowing supplies for which it does not share with Palestinians in their immediate distresses above ground. It strikes me that if/since that is the case: Palestinian civilians (aged men and women, children, disabled, infirm, etceteras) can't get help from Hamas because they are 'cannon fodder' that somebody in this world should care about these civilian VICTIMS of Hamas and indirectly or directly of Israel.
Subsequently, it makes sense that these people are even less Guilty than first thought, because Hamas is not listening to them or assisting them in any provisional way. Are these civilians firing rockets, holding guns pointed at Israel, shooting guns at Israel? Taking Israelites hostage?
Why can't we let right be right, for consistency-sake? For example: We don't want mass shooters in our country because they kill innocent men/women/children. Why is it okay to kill civilians who have not done a thing against Israel (or anybody else) but it's acceptable to execute them in search of a larger prize?
Something is very wrong here!
What do you say about this?
I thought the sarcasm of my comment was SO OBVIOUS that a 4 year old child would recognize it. So I amended my comment JUST FOR YOU.
How should Israel rid the threat of Hamas for themselves and for Gazans?
CB, you're not being fair here. The reason Krishna and Buzz made such comments is not because they have a problem with the LGBTQ community, but because it's ironic that anybody in that community would support a population that would likely contain many people who would cheer the extinction of LGBTQ people, and whose government and terrorist allies certainly would.
That, BTW, is why their flagged comments stand.
I will receive that comment just the way you mean it. Welcome to November 1. From now on. . . don't bother changing anything for my sake. I got your intentions right the first time! Oh, and about that sarcasm tag it is properly or usually intended to be displayed with its 'content.' That you have to be SARCASTIC in placing it as an afterthought speaks volumes about the seriousness of what you wrote. Although, seeing sarcasm in LYNCHED men swinging from a crane is stretching the ("/s") tag to its limits.
1.3.2
Good November Sandy. You know, I thought this article was about life not about dragging victimized homosexuals into exploitation comparisons. There was something cruel that just happened here and since I read a new reply - I see the sentiment is continuing.
I am fully aware that homosexuals are killed in Muslim countries in horrible ways. But, then to what kind of person would I be if I "death-wished" all Arabs who are homophobic or homosexual haters? I would be the same as those Arabs - a bigoted, SOB!
I have told these specific conservatives over and over across two articles on this subject that I support Israel getting those Arabs which killed civilian Israelites and it went over like a lead balloon for several of them who keep charging me with hints of being antisemitic or at the least not sympathetic to the Israelites. I support LIFE for civilians who had nothing to do with what Hamas did: Do these specific conservatives have any proof that all of Palestine approved/signed off/voted for what Hamas has done? If they do show that.
But to be spiteful and put up a display (directed at me) of homosexuals (the implication) swinging by their neck?!!! What the hell am I supposed to feel? Should I post grotesque images of Israelites in return? I will not do it, because I am better than that!
It was not a joke matter. It can't be allowed to be a joking matter.
Being homosexual does not make me spiteful of Muslims (I have some in my family). Furthermore, as life would have it and I posted about it already several times across two articles at the least: I have Muslim friends. . . one close friend who is Palestinian. I don't hate him because he wouldn't have sex with me-were I having sex. Moreover, I doubt if he wants to kill me-at least, it has not come to that point yet! That is, we've never had that discussion!
In this world we have to accept a great many things. . . until times can get better. It is what we do on NT. Listen, protest, examine, and answer all day long to each other. That someone would think to post an image like that as a sarcastic joke when it is uncalled for calls for it getting called out.
I could say more, but this will suffice.
The article is about why the author doesn't favor a cease-fire with Hamas. And their attitude toward homosexuals, which unfortunately is not dependent on the attitudes of homosexuals toward them, is a damn good reason not to favor a cease-fire. You may not be spiteful toward Muslims in general, and Muslims in general may not be spiteful toward you. Hamas? Iranian mullahs? Yeah, they're spiteful toward you.
Buzz and Krish noting that is not them being spiteful toward you. It's a statement of reality.
Neither Iraq or Afghanistan had hundreds of miles of tunnels under apartments, schools, hospitals in which to hide.
But why is it a statement of reality when as you indicate the article is about a cease-fire with Hamas? Moreover, "Iran" and "Mullahs" just got name-dropped into this. Why is this expanding?
My concern is for civilians in the Gaza Strip to LIVE and that is what some here take exception to, I guess! I repeat, I have never hated all Muslims even after the horrible things they do to my 'kind.' Also, I don't death-wish some republicans and some conservatives either and some of them literally hate what I stand for and some even express a wish to suppress it, me, and kill when possible.
That is just not how I think, Sandy.
So yes, I don't find it helpful or persuasive to throw up an image of supposedly homosexuals lynched as if to say that I should blame all of anybody for Muslim state and regional policy against homosexuals. If that was the case, then I could hate every heterosexual who wishes me and my 'kind' ill. And, I don't and I won't.
Judge issues and individuals on their merit/s.
NOTE: My thoughts are scattered right now because I have to make a run. Hope this conveys what I wish to get across—mostly.
Reading the comments, that is one horrible guess.
I haven't seen one person cheering for civilian deaths or advocating for same.
Some are more receptive to the fact that terrorists use "innocent" Palestinians and hide behind them, and can see that in war, innocent civilians often, tragically, die.
Is it your view that under the circumstances you 'layout' that it is okay to deliberately bomb civilians to get terrorists? As some have pointed out in these several discussions, Hamas in not a true friend to ordinary Palestinians, Israel is bombing Palestinian civilians, and Egypt is unwilling to receive an influx of refugees from yet another war next door.
So just kill them?!! Seriously?
Deliberate targeting or dismissive targeting of civilians is wrong as the day is long. Full stop. You would feel similarly or may be you wouldn't mind being targeting (only you know) if you had someone you care about under steady bombardment. Ideology tends to take a back seat to self-survival. Can't you empathize with these people who are being served up as 'cannon fodder' even a little?
It seems you are assuming that it is easy to identify an enemy in these circumstances. It's not. In 1.3.2 you mentioned about how the US did it. I'll tell you from experience that it is a very drawn out and tedious process that took years to set up and is not an option right now. Hamas is hiding among the civilians. They are dressed like them, they act like them. Right now it is very difficult to identify them among a group. That is the same problem the US had in the early parts of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.
Now you have to keep in mind that the civilians aren't trusted. THEY voted Hamas into power over them. THEY kept quiet while every attack on Israel was set up. Other Arab nations do not even want the refugees.
Deliberately? No, the target was one of the Hamas architects of 7 Oct and 50 of his best buds. The civilians were there either because they didn't want to heed Israeli requests to go south or because hamas prevented them from leaving.
I agree with that.
No, Israel is bombing Hamas that are hiding behind civilians.
They don't seem to like the palestinians and Hamas mixture much
Was Truman wrong to end WW II by bombing Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
War is always ugly, it is exceptionally ugly in a dense urban setting. The most moral warfighter has to constantly consider the cost/benefit equation. What is the cost to my military, what is the cost to collateral damage and civilian casualties against what is the expected benefit by eliminating the target.
Israel could have left those Hamas planners alone to avoid Gazan civilian casualties but the potential cost was a future assault on Israeli civilians like on 7 Oct.
Several reasons the 'Coalition of friends' who fought with us (the proper name for the grouping escapes me at this time) in Iraq and Afghanistan opted to not make 'fodder' of more civilians in those crises is this: 1. Some countries balked at such killings. Some partially because they never wanted to find themselves 'fodder' under similar circumstances. 2. Some of our 'friends' along with us thought it unwise to turn an entire nation's population against the soldier's sent in on the ground. 3. The third audience is future onlookers who become participants by coming out of the background and attacking because of what they perceive as unbearable brutality of their brethren or others. 4. The fourth audience is "hearts and minds" and could include "future" lone-wolfs who become radicalized to hate or even launch solo attacks around the world because of the death of family, friends, or just because of the cruelty of of perceived careless bombardments of civilians.
For they would become a force unto themselves. (If people are going to kill you anyway-why not pick up a gun/weapon/snitch on their whereabouts). In taking care of those nation's innocent ones (victims) the 'coalition' earned a modicum of respect from the locals who actually 'found' a reason to help them-help them get rid of their corrupt authority figures.
Hamas was voted in to office in 2005. And once their routed the Palestinian Authority. And as has been pointed over and again Hamas is no properly friend to Palestinian civilians. Therefore, two things or more can be true about the same set of conditions and circumstances.
Arab nations don't want territorial disputes to keep "UPHEAVALS" in their national politics. I can understand this. For example: Color me cynical to think that opening humanitarian 'corridors' for people to leave a combat zone. . . and immediately turning around to feed millions of people their 'daily needs' would have been unnecessary if the people were left in their status quo condition. The Arab countries worry about their economies, their stockpiles of resources (and shortages), and the logistics, of caring for unscheduled guest. Also, there is the fear that terrorists could bring their 'shitty designs' into other Arab nations in a "stranger things happening" set of events.
Go after the terrorists. They have the guns pointing outward. Don't 'shoot'! Civilians are unarmed.
Why in the world would the fact that this article is about a cease-fire make a statement regarding bigotry against LGBTQ among radical Islamists NOT a statement of reality? That's like saying that a statement about photosynthesis can't be factual if it's made in reference to an article about roses. Iran and Islamic mullahs got name-dropped because who do you think is stirring up support for Islamic terrorists, and funding them?
Nobody here thinks you've death-wished anybody, nor do they think that you should blame all Muslims for the actions of the radicals among them.
[deleted]
Why do you think the Jews are like that?
As I said, even a 4 year old would have understood that my reply to Krishna's obviously sarcastic remark was to enforce its sarcasm by illustrating what he meant. Since you didn't, and STILL refuse to acknowledge that it was meant to be sarcasm, I was really thinking of giving you a gift that I'm sure you would enjoy, but then since I prefer keeping myself clear of tickets and points, as I usually do, I decided to NOT gift you with this:
I believe I've read that they mostly do that to gays. (And since the international community might not approve of that, Iran always says they are hanging drug dealers -- which sounds acceptable).
You should be more careful of what you say. There's someone here who's feelings might get hurt.
Okay. I guess that is sarcasm without the tag. Maybe you FORGOT we just discussed the value of appropriate tags to convey meaning in comments. I forgive you.
I've seen someone's feelings hurt too and the next time that occurs I will make a point to draw someone's attention to it. /s
Some one?
Only one?
Looks almost like a rattle.
But seriously, WTF is that thing?
It looks like it could be some kind of a sex toy for Pamplemousses!
(Or some other extremely dangerous wild animal)
Now we're moving forward! Images of dead unarmed civilians from bombs, shellings, and ground forces won't help Israel's image in the region and around the world. That said, there is a lot fewer terrorists in the world today! Or, perhaps this explosion you're referencing just set more hearts and minds of some around the world against/for the worse towards Israel? (Rhetorical.)
Reasonable people will support Israel against terrorists any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
Israel's responsibility is to protect its citizens, and unless other countries are going to do that for them, I bet Israel doesn't really give a damn if some other country 'support' them or not.
Again, you condemn Israel with no solution offered up. I guess some people are just cool with Hamas assholes firing rockets at Israelis whenever they feel like it and Israel is supposed to do nothing because Hamas plays dirty and imbeds themselves with civilians.
Thank you for sharing this. It moves the discussion forward and I truly appreciate it. One of the activities the U.S did upon entering Iraq (well two things): 1. The 'Coalition' cancelled its big presentation of "Shock and Awe" by just sending in several choice rockets against the night sky of Iraq before ground entry. 2. The "benefit" to that was borne out when the coalition did cross into Iraq and civilians there did not fight them, but in their own way, WELCOMED the coalition. Turning "enemies" into unexpected friends can happen in times of war. . . with the 'right' approach. People are not so stupid that they don't know how vulnerable they are to attack, injury, and death—for themselves and/or their loved ones. So they appreciate it when they are allowed to live. And not be so-called, "collateral damage."
Enter Gaza City right and the populace left there just might assist in pushing Hamas out into the streets to be rounded up or at the least, sufficiently give INTEL about Hamas that they can be relatively safely rounded up.
Or some such thing as that.
I have no idea what this is about. So, I'll just leave it alone.
Okay, and I forgive you for misconstruing and not understanding what I had posted. For the sake of clarity I will try to make sure that I post the appropriate symbol with my comments. Actually I don't remember a discussion about symbols, but then after all, at my age.............what was I saying?
You are being misleading. I support Israel against Hamas. I support civilian lives because people matter. Make the distinction when you right about this if you wish to be accurate about my viewpoint.
Okay, Buzz! Now that was funny in its own way.
You forgive me. You forgive me for misconstruing. . . . Did you admit to leaving off the sarc tag. Yes, why yes you did. Anyway, that was a light-hearted comeback!
Am I? Or accurately describing what I see?
I am sure that is true in some ways.
It just seems as though what you would like Israel to do contradicts that sentiment.
You've said that already. Do you think you are the only one or something?
Do you feel as though you have some moral high ground here?
What I would say, is that in a perfect world there would be no death. I a little less than perfect world, there would be death of only evil. In a less than perfect world innocence is killed to prevent evil from thriving. Everybody finally got this into their heads about the Nazis, but not before 12 million people died in the camps.
I am very saddened about what is happening to the innocent Palestinians, but I am afraid, that just like the bombing of Dresden, I don't see another way. Their own brethren don't take pity on them.
How your comment went unflagged and is still standing is a big mystery to me.
It is a combination of personal insult and trolling.
The other day an Israeli military spokesman was asked in a tv interview about the bombing of the refugee camp. He was asked about the civilian casualties and if Israel knew there were civilians at the site of the bombing. The man didnt say Israel didnt know, he said that there was a high ranking Hamas leader hiding underground there and Israel wanted to eliminate him.
There is no doubt that civilians are killed in battles in urban settings, but we constantly hear that Israel is not targeting civilians and when it happens it is unintentional. This Israely military spokesman didnt say a civilian area was not targeted, he said it was necessary to target a civilian area because there was a (or maybe a bunch of) Hamas leaders there.
Israel can justify it any way they want, and certainly many many people agree with them. But dont say the bombing of the refugee camp was not deliberate, even though the IDF knew there were civilians there.
The target was Hamas who were hiding below civilians. Why is this apartment complex called a refugee camp?
Should Hamas be off limits when hiding behind civilians? Should they have been left alone to plan another attack on Israeli citizens?
Obama double tapped wedding parties to kill first responders, and not a peep. is it hypocrisy or antisemitism that causes them angst now?
Because Hamas was seeking refuge under it?
Sharing my thoughts about civilians is me sharing my thoughts. My "high ground." No one has to agree or disagree with it either way. I support Israel against Hamas. I support the life of civilians in a war and that is consistent with the principle of "you shall not kill." It is useful to remember the distinction. And, that two or several things can be true at the same time.
I have read your posts.
While sounding grand and compassionate towards Palestinians. your "solutions" don't work for Israel.
We all should be saddened over the death of one civilian on any/all sides. Innocent people are non-participants in the break-downs between societies that come to war. I will remind Israel to protect its citizens and yet simultaneously protect others. . .who like us have a SURVIVAL INSTINCT and do not want to die, least of all, for 'nothing.'
Worse, watch their LOVED ONES - we all have them - blown to SMITHEREENS as if they are terrorists without distinction they are not!
I am detached emotionally from this. But, it is needful that someone make the case for those who can't defend themselves in this situation they find themselves. It's not easy for me, and I will be taken to 'task' and misunderstood. But, that's life in an IMPERFECT world.
I watched that interview. It was with Alex Wagner and an IDF officer/spokesman, if memory serves me well right now. And yes, I 'clocked' that he was implying that a greater, albeit state-selfish, goal was accomplished by getting the Hamas 'agents' underground. To be fair, the officer went on to state that civilians were warned to evacuate the area and Ms. Wagner pointed out to him that at the time that was the safe area or that no area was deemed safe from bombardment near those civilians (going from memory here). The officer left it further 'unanswered' and unaddressed. Of course, the "third" audience of onlookers around the world will make its own judgement call on the loss of innocent lives.
One more thing I remember: The Israelite Officer did point out that the Geneva Convention explains that military forces using civilian quarters for 'cover' or to 'hide behind' and do nefarious activities is disallowed. Possibly a war crime. I have not researched this. It is a good point!
Still it does not help the civilians and that is the (important) thing when it comes to affecting hearts and minds and world-wide acts of anti-semitism against unarmed Jews around the world. I hate to be so blunt (in-delicate) with that last sentence, but some things need to be stated plainly so they can be considered.
We're have to see what the 'end' will be after all the dusts settle: Will things change or will there be a new 'emergence' somewhere in the M/E or across the world because of this war. I pray Israel has the wisdom this moment needs. Peace.
Any Palestinian dressed as a civilian and pointing a AK-47 at Israeli troops is obviously not a "innocent civilian", therefore is fair game and their life if forfeit.
And there lies the problem. You have somebody hiding among the civilian population with an AK stuck in his man jammies and people think it would be easy to identify the combatant from the civilians.
Hamas militants.
As for un-uniformed militants. That is always a possibility. As anybody knows. Subsequently, if anybody points a gun or "AK" in your direction (seemingly to shoot) —defend yourself! Even local LEO know this. You just don't mount up civilian deaths by indiscriminate bombing from above and gunning down UNARMED PEOPLE for just being "Present."
I would like very much not to encounter somebody in the field experiencing a manic episode to kill every human being in plain clothes he encounters!
That is what the IDF have been fighting for years and to what I referred in my comment. It's laughable that you think that Hamas fighters are wearing a uniform.
And so far, it appears the only ones killing unarmed civilians have been the Hamas fighters. Or did you not even attempt to watch the video in 10.1.27?
I am not going to argue with you, Jeremy. I can see in the video 10.1.27 people in 'uniform' fatigues and people carrying guns. If someone is UNAUTHORIZED on your property and/or/ carrying a gun and pointing it in your or family or friends direction: Defend yourself. It goes without being long drawn out that UNARMED CIVILIANS are not armed to do combat. But, I am fatigued of explaining this one, single FACT to individuals who simply want to make all Palestinians no matter their involvement in the crime of murder and invasion pay the 'ultimate' cost.
The video is horrific, of course. But it speaks to me that you get the ones who did this by going after the organization. Not just deliver collective justice to all Palestinians. Because as you can see that is not all of Gaza doing this crime.
You left out the part where they are killing civilians. TARGETING civilians. These aren't IDF soldiers. These are Hamas fighters with a history of targeting civilians. And if we look at your comments, these are the people you support.
And, before I forget, these aren't from cctv on private property. This is in public, in the open. So you can stop with the "defending yourself on private property" bullshit. That's not what's happening.
What are you doing? Of course, I know Hamas is killing civilians. It is atrocious. Why are you finding fault with everything I write? It is more than what is needed. If you must declare a 'win' then just do it . I have done my best to agree with you (where possible to no clear avail). I am done!
For the UMPTEENTH time. Hamas fighters do not appear to be run of the mill Palestinian civilians (in and out of uniform). There is no justification for bombing UNARMED CIVILIAN MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!!! You would not do it in the U.S - so why try to convince me- it is not right to do there either. And as has been illustrated from posted comments about international documents. . . there are other agreements and Geneva conventions that bar indiscriminate collective guilt killing of civilians.
That's all I have. Again, I am done. We've beat this 'horse' so badly until it is too sore to even mount!
Seems to me your position is twofold:
People are on your case because what you wish in 2 seems impossible to do in reality.
Have I captured the essence?
Yes. Yes. Yes. People do die through what is 'evidentially' mistakes in the fog or nature of wars. I get that and so do any of us. However, killing innocent men, women, children, elderly, disabled, poor, or all-around people who just can't seem to get out of the way is WRONG. We, as a nation, know it is wrong because we would insist that it never happen over here. So why do these "Americans" want to argue that something of a "vengeful spirit" should be let loose in Gaza.
Go get Hamas: Hamas indiscriminately killed Israelis. The populace, not holding weapons (maybe never held a weapon) have offended NO ONE.
Will getting Hamas require a different approach then indiscriminate bombings - yes. But it is what it is.
Good thing that's not what happening then.
Obstinance is as obstinance does. Short-sightedness is as short-sightedness does. I remember suicide bombings in that area of the world. To me, it was the worse thing a human being could do to himself/herself. I don't even know why such macabre conduct ended. It just seemed to have run its course. Could it make a return. Possibly. I certainly hope not. I even reflected on writing it in print here. For fear of putting it in the air. . . but this non-stop obstinance leaves little to the imagination that should not be given explanation or 'voice.'
What should Israel do if intelligence indicates a senior Hamas military leader is in a bunker with 50 other militants planing a raid into Israel? The bunker is 100 feet below an apartment building that may or may not still have some civilians left in it,
Yes, the 2nd Intifada. Hamas sent civilians, some with mental issues, to go into Israeli restaurants, board buses and other public place and blow up themselves with as many Israelis as possible. Hamas then paid a fee to the bombers family and celebrated his martyrdom.
To me, it was the worst a human can do to others.
That was the beginning of peace loving, two nation Israelis to turn their back on Palestinians.
Tell us what you would advise Israel to do. Put it in words and be clear. And, I hope you realize that if no civilians are present/there they should do to Hamas accordingly. Otherwise, the outcome will be "sweet" in the short-run, but the Israelis' reputation/brand will suffer once the death of civilians found dead in the rumble is documented and shown around the world. Leading to who knows what!
Exactly, no pictures. I would advise the IDF to use penetration, bunker busting bombs. The suspected target is too valuable to risk getting away.
I don’t understand what you mean.
That’s not typically a decision criteria.
Of course you know what I mean. But you want to drag it out. . . .bomb Hamas for its crime against Israel and its civilians. And, be mindful: If civilians are there when the "superior" weaponry destroys Palestinian civilians who have no clue who is hiding in their midst, the world will not look the other way.
Already, the 'bestie' friend of Israel, the U.S. is opening/publicly warning Israel to 'guard' the bigger picture and not to make this about indiscriminate vengeance (which could infuriate the third and fourth "audiences" of states or state actors who currently are watching from the sidelines).
You may not worry about the long-term outcomes. But Israel has to for the obvious reason that they can't just up and move away from their home! Let's say they have vested interests in WHAT the long-term will bring to the two peoples and the land they both inhabit.
You assume to much.
No, I recommended bombing Hamas to reduce future crimes.
Yes, that’s a hard decision Israel has to make. What’s the trade space between future Israeli casualties and international opinion.
Now it's my turn. I don't know what you mean by "trade space" unless you mean "trade off." Namely, negative international opinion/s over the death of a myriad of innocent people not involved in the crime against Israel won't count unless it brings with it a backlash that leaves Israel exposed on its political side, breaks down international friends or put those at serious risk of diminishment, and/or spawns new terrorists cells.
Yes, trade space and trade offs are essentially the same. Modern militaries attempt to use a sound methodology to conduct risk-informed trade space analysis in operational decisions.
You seem to have left out of the equation this risk of letting this Hamas cell continue its work.
I have not suggest Hamas stay intact at all by the end of this. Hamas committed a grave crime against Israel's UNARMED civilians and should pay for it accordingly.
And I haven’t accused you of that.
Yes, but you haven’t offered a viable way to make Hamas pay for it.
Pretty sure we still have some MOAB's with hardened penetrator noses in the inventory that Israel could put to good use. That would make short work of those tunnels like they did at the Tora Bora caves in Afghanistan. Hamas would never know what hit em.
I don’t know, but hope that we’ve provided some MOP, Massive Ordnance Penetrator.
30,000 pounds to penetrate 200 ft of concrete. It doesn’t take that much blast, the power is in the case hardened shell allowing it to go very deep before exploding.
Would it matter? It's not like I am going to 'GO!' carry any 'way' out.
Exactly, pretty much a wasted discussion.
You brought it up! So. . . .
Now to something a tad different but relevant: What say you:
Do you agree with Russia bombing civilians in Ukraine?
No, like Hamas, they are the instigator in their war.
You do not agree with Russia bombing civilians in Ukraine. Yet an obvious implication is you view unarmed civilians on the Gaza Strip as "instigators" in this M/E war. Tell me: the invalid, sick, feeble-minded, disabled, poor and powerless, the youth and children, and Palestinians with jobs in Israel are these folks "instigators"?
Correct.
Correct, the Gazan government, like Russia, instigated their war.
You forgot all the able bodied Palestinians. Yes, their government instigated this war.
And this is the first instance you have acknowledged it. Sadly you had to be called out before you did it.
The only ones that are targeting unarmed civilians are Hamas.
You didn't call out anything, except in you own 'head.' But, believe what you want. I actually regret I spent time on this subject with you at all! Overnight I thought in through and this morning I rise to drop this subject because it is going in circles. I release it to its own destruction.
Can we bring this seed to an end please. One of you is going to have to take that initiative. It has long back outlived its usefulness.
I finally agree. See 9.4.86. And I read your comment AFTER I wrote that one and REFRESHED.
Acute and terminal lead poisoning is a good way to start.
570 comments is enough for any seed on NT.
I have long thought that when seeds get over 250 or so comments they should be moved off the front page and to a special section of the forum. They just become way too repetitive when the comments start to mount.
Or when they repeatedly do not match somebody else's particular point(s) of view?
Things just keep getting curiouser and curiouser.....
You can let it go already. It was something between Perrie (the seeder) and me. Albeit public.
LOL. Your avatar is having an effect on you.
What good military Commander will sacrifice his soldiers for enemy civilians?
May I? Israel has an opportunity to 'amaze' the world if it does this right and bring the world along on its journey to "correct" Hamas and free the Palestinians who are now suffering because of Hamas! Do it wrong and their will undoubtedly be reproach heard around the world. That is just the way it is. The politics of the matter.
Everybody wants Israel to "do it right" but no one ever wants to tell us what the "right" way is.
The "right" way to me is destroying Hamas.
Well, Jew hatred and thereby Israel hatred is pretty normal around the world anyway, so what the hell, eh?
Yes you may.
You may take three umbrella steps.
What the hell?! Ain't Jews tired of all this killing in the M/E and in their world? I mean really now! Perpetual skirmishes and open warfare is no way to live generation to generation to generation. Is this area of the world called, "Holy Land" then why are the supposedly most religious people in the world annually fighting and killing each other?
So who is dedicated even in their constitution, to eradicate the other? Maybe that will give you the answer.
Do you understand that it is in Hamas' charter to destroy Israel?
Have you not learned that you can NOT negotiate with terrorists by now??
So if this is 'irreconciable,' I suspect I will 'complete' growing old and die leaving them to their indefinite misery.
Show me a comment where I defended Hamas . . . because I don't recall writing such. But I could be wrong. Please re-introduce me to it.
Now, why would I indulge your strawman? Maybe YOU should show me saying you did before making demands.
Are we regressing (again)? You left it open through implication with a leading question about Hamas' charter. I have no interest in Hamas' charter because I view the group as guilty as charged.
I am not, but I can't answer for you.
The PURPOSE of telling you about that which doesn't "interest" you was to point out how freaking unreasonable Hamas is and how unreasonable it is to expect animals to act any other way. You can't deal with this vermin, you can only hope to exterminate them.
Which is why a soft approach will not protect Israelis.
What "soft" approach? Keeping civilians alive and saving a nation's reputation for generations unborn - is "soft"? Or going after terrorist while not deliberately or dismissively killing unarmed men, women, and children is a soft approach? Is it wisdom to launch an all out war in Gaza considering where Israel is sitting (among Arab states)? I'm just asking this in furtherance of finding out if we can agree about 'anything' in this.
WTF is wrong with you? I find your reaction difficult to understand.
Are you deliberately avoiding reading the news? Or perhaps just a run of the mill racist bigot?
Or maybe just plain stupid? I have no idea which is true...I don't know what it iks, so please tell me!!!!
Here's what happened in that terror attack on Israel by Hamas on October 7th. (this it what motivated Israel to attack Gaza this time):
Former Israeli Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked appeared on BBC, and the anchor asked her if she managed to catch any of the Hamad interview:
"I heard and I almost physically vomited, actually.
You know that those monsters had cameras on the helmets of the murderers.
We have videos of all the atrocities that they committed. Everything is recorded.
They decapitated children. In one house, they murdered a pregnant woman, they split open her belly and they stabbed the baby. They're monsters. They're worse than ISIS and they should be eliminated."
No missiles because of civilians. Isn't that what you said--to protect innocent Palestinians?
Waiting for weeks or months, all while Hamas rains rockets on Israel. Waiting for WHAT???
Hamas to suddenly become human? Fat chance!
Palestinians must do something for themselves. Rid themselves of Hamas. Help Israel help them.
(Remember-- Hamas did this before Israel retaliated).
In one house, they murdered a pregnant woman, they split open her belly and they stabbed the baby.
And you have the nerve to say:
Ain't Jews tired of all this killing in the M/E
[deleted]
What could possibly make you think any Arab states give a damn about the Palestinians?
Do you think the US would stand idly by if Israel was attacked by one or more nations?
Do you honestly believe that Israel is targeting civilians??????????????????????
What "soft" approach would that be? Please be clear.
Why are you reaching out to me in this way? Who the hell do you think you are?! I won't take shit off you are anybody else so back the . . . off!!! That said, I will admit that sometimes these comments get written in haste (time constraints, distraction, bathroom calls, whatever) I could have more precisely added Jews and Palestinians should want to end skirmishes and wars since they are figuratively "perpetually" joined at the hip in the land. But, you don't 'talk' to me any kind of way. No way in hell will I grant you that online or in person!
And I have agreed that Israel should respond in ways it see fit to Hamas. What problem do you have with me specifically about Hamas? I hold nothing significant for Hamas. How many times do I have to writet this across TWO or is it THREE articles by now?!
Well, let's take this in reverse. . .and it will get 'fiery' but that is what you seem to expect or wish. So let's go for it. Kill innocent Palestinians indiscriminately and see what happens to the region.
Again, you went there. Call me a stupid asshole again.
Are civilians dying in Gaza from rockets fired by Israel? Are unarmed civilians firing those rockets into Israel. You can't righteously judge that is okay to kill civilians over there while being consistent to say that you respect the humanity of all people! Do you respect the humanity of unarmed Gazans?
I am realistic. I wish more were.
yes. I hope you know the difference between firing rockets directly at civilians and civilians being collateral damage because they are mixed in with terrorists.
Unarmed innocent Gazans should be rejoicing that Israel is coming to liberate them from the terrorists they eat, sleep, work, and pray with daily. The very same assholes using them as shields.
You are going on and on about Palestinian civilians are killed by Israeli mutations but are overlooking the Israeli (and Palestinian) civilians killed by Hamas munitions.
Maybe you haven't seen the video .
The IDF aren't just randomly firing into Gaza like Hamas is firing in to Israel. These are tactical targets (i.e. locations used by militants to carryout attacks / strikes). Hamas is no different than al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. They hide among the civilian population. They're cowards that will use a school, mosque, church, hospital to fire rockets then claim Geneva Convention violations when Israel counters.
Do you respect the humanity of unarmed Israelis ? Or is it just the unarmed on one side?
He wants Israel to play nice and ensure no civilian casualties, not understanding that it is impossible.
Good luck with that. The idea of zero civilian casualties went out the window the minute Hamas fired their first rocket at Israel.
It appears he is supporting Hamas in this and trying to make Israel the aggressor despite common sense and evidence to the contrary.
That's nonsense. And you should know better after all the comments on this subject from me . So I won't be 'affirming' anything again to you. Watch this video:
Blinken in Israel told the leaders there to their face this . So you can diminish him as some "milk-toast" liberal or accept his official position as that of the administration he serves. It's your call. However, he is the Secretary of State delivering a message to LIMIT the bloodshed occurring in Gaza and the West Bank!
You're mistaken. See the video 10.1.30. Enough said! The U.S. position is to support unarmed civilians-not Hamas. So that. . . untruth. . . should end now. BTW, I am pretty sure the President and his cabinet have seen ALL THE VIDEOS on the matter of Israel/Palestine war. . . and still they support humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza and not bombing unarmed civilians.
Biden has a Dem revolt going on over his unwavering support for Israel.
The National Muslim Democratic Council (NMDC) sent him a letter demanding his influence with Israel to broker a cease-fire. Without a cease-fire, the advocacy group threatened to mobilize millions of Muslim voters to withhold donations and votes toward his 2024 reelection campaign.
A poll released this week A by the Arab American Institute showed his support has dropped among Arab American voters, from 59% in the 2020 election to 17% now.
Oh, sure. Now they want a cease fire because Israel is defending itself.
Well, it just proves that a U.S. president's job is hardly easy - especially where the Middle East is concerned!
Well, it just proves that a U.S. president's job is hardly easy - to keep both Jewish and Muslim votes when a ME war is underway.
Yes.
It’s a lot easier than trying to go door to door in Gaza City to kill Hamas.
During our Vietnam War, the urban fight in Hue was the bloodiest battle we taught there.
Our Marines faced a dug-in, heavily armed NVA force and we took heavy casualties during the one month fight. Fortunately, Joe, because of his asthma, missed it.
I know of absolutely no one advocating the bombing of civilians, and that isn't what Israel is trying to do.
Yes, but easier than being shot at. Their are a lot of Israelis that will now suffer from PTSD and surviver guilt for the rest of their lives.
Your failure to understand that Israel is not targeting civilians isn't a me problem.
There will ALWAYS be collateral damage by design on the part of Hamas.
Palestinians need to take some responsibility for their own plight.
Hamas likes it for the headlines.
Looks like their propaganda is fooling some folks here.
Their strength is evoking generational refugee status.
It’s the same cycle of media and political stance with each Hamas Intifada.
I remember when several much larger Arab countries surprised Israel with the 1973 attack on their holy holiday. IDF came back kicking ass and had surrounded most of the Egyptian Army in the Sinai. We demanded that they pull back and not destroy their attacker so Egypt could save face.
Also involved in the battle for Hue was 2/12 Calvary of the 1st Cav Division, later joined by the 1/7 and 5/7 of the 1st Cav and 2/501st, 101st Airborne. The battle was actually divided into three separate sections, Hue, New Hue and NW of Hue through the forest and the Perfume River.
Between the NVA and VC they numbered around 8,000 fighters in Hue. In addition to the Marines, Cavalry, and Airborne we had around 200 Aussie and US MAVC advisors there.
The fighting was brutal, once the Cav and Airborne cut off the bridge over the Perfume River and made the NVA 5th Regiment combat ineffective it cut off the supply line into Hue and the Cav and Airborne troops pushed to Old Hue.
As Drinker said the fighting was viscous/brutal with no letup. Casualties were high.
Secretary Of State Antony Blinken Speaks To Reporters After Meeting With Netanyahu
I know you have limited respect for liberals and their White House occupants/cabinet/staff, but they are the power players we have in-charge of government and this "propaganda" must have fooled them too-and the rest of the international community which agrees with our State Department statements and actions.
I have very limited patience with people who refuse to see reality.
Hamas LIKES it when civilians are killed, which is precisely why they imbed themselves with civilians.
If our "leaders" are dumb enough to fall for that propaganda spewed by Hamas (and other Americans fall for it, too!), screw them.
Jeering is easy. Wisdom and experience are hard to come by, which is why the wise use the pair as often as the can.
I'm all ears in case you want to relate that however remotely to what I wrote in post 10.1.49
You put in quotes, "leader" - so I thought it proper to remind you in this case there are people who have duties and responsibilities that go beyond taking down Hamas: To the unarmed innocent victims of Hamas, in Gaza. Hamas is the guilty ones here, not the Palestinian civilians.
In this case, their first responsibility is the security of Israelis.
Is there anything on earth that can get you to see what Hamas and the Palestinians are actually doing here?
And that responsibility means providing 'coverage' and protections against future aggressions by not doing what leaders can to mitigate future insecurity/ities. You know this, so why be so stubborn in making your case against not killing UNARMED INNOCENT CIVILIIANS?
Positive proof that UNARMED PALESTINIANS are picking up and using arms to kill Israelis will do it. Speculation, supposing, and some conservative outrage won't make an UNARMED INNOCENT PALESTINIAN a 'monster' acceptable to be harmed, bombed, and killed.
I don’t know how you destroy Hamas without killing unarmed, innocent civilians unless:
I suspect you will never understand the difference between Palestinians being collateral damage because they have slept with, worked with, ate with, and prayed with known terrorists and Hamas deliberately targeting civilians.
Which is the point being ignored here.
Some don’t have even the most basic understanding of combat in a dense urban environment where most of the conditions favor Hamas.
Clearly.
The IDF can try to 'enlist' Palestinians to sabotage or work against the purposes of Hama. Otherwise, yes, the IDF will have to risk ground casualties. The alternative will be to continue killing UNARMED INNOCENT CIVILIANS and face international scorn, wide-spread outrage, and increases in anti-semitism.
I think you meant, "IDF," but I will let you tell me.
What is it you think you need to teach us about combat in urban areas that is relevant to a need to KILL UNARMED INNOCENT CIVILIANS? The operative word being UNARMED?
I am not sure if you are just deliberately missing the points here or what.
Do you not understand that when the IDF invades fully, that there will be civilian casualties and that can not be helped?
You act as if Israel can root out Hamas with no civilian casualties. That is really naive thinking.
Can you simply not take my words at face value?
Rest assured, had I meant IDF, I would have wrote IDF.
Do you think the peaceful music festival was an IDF-infested target for Hamas?
Or perhaps it was the sleeping Israeli families that posed a threat to Hamas?
Maybe if you make it really, really simple?
if you vote for Nazi’s, and the the Nazi’s you did nothing about attack your neighbors, it hard to believe that the neighbors won’t hold you responsible for voting for Nazi’s.
Can't get much simpler than it already is.
I have never written a damn thing about NO civilian casualties. More importantly, I believe from reading your remarks over several years you are intelligent enough to know that is not what I have written. So why do you keep falling back on to that trope?
There will be casualties of war, but wisdom and experience informs us that UNARMED CIVILIAN casualties of war can be majorly impacted by indiscriminate bombing, and intent.
Please stop with trying to steer the narrative into places it should not be!
What Hamas did was terrorism, plainly. Should the IDF do the same-yes or no? Because if they do using bombs and guns against UNARMED INNOCENT PALESTINIANS MEN, WOMEN, and CHILDREN the world will CONDEMN THE STATE OF ISRAEL ALONGSIDE HAMAS!
I choose to ignore your attempts at petty condescension.
Sorry, but in no way do I believe that Israel is targeting civilians.
I do not know if you believe they are, but from your comments, it seems as though you do.
Look "George" if you are going to add "two-cents" make it of value to the discussion. The same question goes to you:
OKAY!
IF THEY DON'T USE WEAPONS AGAINST HAMAS, HAMAS WILL CONTINUE TO THRIVE AND ATTACK ISRAELIS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY ANYMORE TO GET THROUGH TO YOU THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAMAS' TERRORISTIC ATTACKS AND ISRAEL TRYING TO RID THE WORLD OF TERRORISTS.
I DON'T THINK ISRAEL MUCH CARES ABOUT WHAT THE 'WORLD' HAS TO SAY UNLESS THEY ARE GOING TO COME TO ISRAEL'S DEFENSE.
I'LL GIVE YOU ONE LAST CHANCE TO SAY:
WHAT SHOULD ISRAEL DO TO BEST PROTECT ITS OWN CITIZENS?
Are UNARMED CIVILIAN men, women, and children being pulled from under bombed buildings?
I will not digress with you. We've been over this ad nauseam. I vote that we end it here. And just go with what is written above and below this comment.
Of COURSE they are!!!!!!!!!!
Who in the hell has denied that????
Are you denying that Palestinians are allowing themselves to be used as human shields to protect terrorists?
Now THAT is freaking HILARIOUS!
Let me be clear since your ignorance of the situation has reached its pinnacle, the assholes in Gaza aren’t innocents, they voted for these terrorists, they turned a blind eye while these assholes build rockets and bombs, they do nothing while these assholes build tunnels under their homes, so have no illusions there are no innocents in Gaza and only complete morons thing there are.
That's nice, prove it.
I neither deny or confirm that assertion you made.
First of all, don't call anybody an "ignorant and complete moron" when you choose to dismiss a direct question put to you! Secondly, you have yet to prove the Palestinian people are in control of their destiny and not powerless to stop anything Hamas has done and is doing.
Second, the international community has 'heard' your complain and even the United States is telling Israel to WISELY consider that they have the high moral ground—IF ISRAEL CAN KEEP IT. Keep killing UNARMED CIVILIANS and that 'ground' Israel is 'rightly' standing on will/may slip out from under it.
For three months US-backed Iraqi security forces conducted a full-scale city attack to liberate Mosul from the Islamic State. Iraq assembled a force of over one hundred thousand soldiers to attack somewhere between five and twelve thousand enemy fighters. Over ten thousand civilians were killed, $2 billion in damages, 10 million tons of debris, and almost 2 million displaced residents.
A counter-insurgency means a counterinsurgency involving separating enemy personnel from among the large numbers of civilians.
Defending is always easier than advancing as we now see in the Ukraine. This is even more so in urban combat where large buildings provide good, immediate defensive positions.
The structures offer concealment and cover both to fight from and when combined with tunnels provides the ability to maneuver under cover.
Hamas can and does hide among the civilians which reduces the effectiveness of the attacker.
The buildings reduces the IDF’s intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance, capabilities.
Hamas can see and engage the IDF coming, because the they will have limited cover and concealment.
The IDF can either flatten the buildings or clear them room by room while avoiding explosive traps and ambushes. Once cleared, they will have to stations troops there to prevent reoccupation.
In Fallujah, the enemy reinforced the insides of buildings with sandbags, booby-trapped windows, doors, and roofs, and established kill zones in courtyards and the building entryways that they expected us to use. We took heavy casualties while conducting clearing operations.
There are many other aspects but perhaps you have a better understanding of the difficulties that the IDF faces.
I’m sorry that 10.1.81 wasn’t helpful to your understanding.
Still, you're not dealing with the question!
what do you need to know about the fact that there will be civilian deaths because that is what Hamas wants?
I tried to. You asked;
I tried to relay some of the challenges and how that contributes to civilian casualties and included some recent examples.
I'm not sure how you possibly think that.
So let's be clear; We have the evidence: You do not answer questions directed at you any better that those of us you criticize about doing the same!
How are the challenges you listed at 10.1.81 a need to kill UNARMED INNOCENT CIVILIANS? Unarmed being the operative word. (Counterinsurgency does not involve UNARMED INNOCENT CIVILIANS - they are not "fighters" so let's be clear about this one thing.)
I answered you. still waiting for you to tell me what I need to teach you.
No, you didn't. You sidestepped the direct question and did your own 'thing.' It's not the same as answering a direct question, in any shape, form, or spirit!
I am going to drop this here: Hamas in uniform :
Elite Hamas fighters defecting to Islamic State | The Times of IsraelOkay, you want to directly answer the question? Go ahead.
Hamas may not care and may even wish for Palestinian deaths, but they are not the ones blowing up UNARMED Palestinian CIVILIANS with bombs and bullets.
Lol. They are. They also continue to bomb unarmed Israeli civilians, after murdering, raping and mutilating a thousand plus civilians less than a month ago.
If Israel puts their arms down they would be wiped out by the people you shill for. If the Palestinians put their arms down, they'd have their own state.
you are completely free to pretend your question wasn't answered, I am kind of getting used to such nonsense claims.
I know you won't believe this. but Hamas imbeds itself with civilians just so they can ensure civilian deaths and have bleeding hearts start whining about Israel.
Hamas started this war and all blame is on Hamas only
The Worry about this is way more than the situation deserves
Here's your guys:
Be proud...
why don't YOU answer once what Israel should do to BEST protect its citizens while not killing any civilians?
I don't shill for anybody, GET IT?!! This is all me/all the time. Just me. No DNC. No campaign. No organization. No [Place name here] funding. Not one damn copper penny comes my way from ads or any such thing all the time I have been on social media. It's just me. Me. Me.
Now if you get it wrong or 'twisted' again you will need to provide receipts of any income I receive for being here. Oh and this is my only social medial 'club' and outlet. I will make a point to announce if I go to another. Okayyyyyyyy.
Damn straight!
Why won't some allow Israel to protect itself, and why is Israel held to a different standard?
I am not worried. Some conservatives don't want to admit that unarmed means unarmed and civilian means not enlisted/service to a cause. Apparently, this long drawn out REPETITIVE DISCUSSION is intended to aid in me/liberals looking bad or 'disloyal' to Israel. The bs with some people is seemingly boundless. I am wanting to understand and process the M/E situation/problem/war fairhandedly and not will not be bullied into just stating KILL unarmed civilian Palestinians just because.
And it is clear that the world is coming around to a sense of proportionality. There is an inordinate number of kids in the Gaza Strip and a high number of them are dying from bomb blast, limbs blown off, and buildings falling on them. Where is the humanity in doing this to kids?
It was wrong when Hamas did all it did to Israel and it is equally wrong (if not more so, because Israel has or has claimed the high moral ground) when Israel does it.
Let it go. Bye.
You can let it go and move on if you try.
I will not digress with you. Read the damn comments.
I wonder which side of this conflict the Gazan civilians prefer to be killed by?
Hamas is guilty as charged. We agree about this. So that is confirmed already. Israel is held to a higher standard, because Israel is not Hamas - yes?! But if Israel is killing UNARMED CIVILIAN men, women, and children. . . they become as base as Hamas. The Moral of this: Israel don't do what Hamas does to non-combatants.
From south Gaza to the sea Israel should be free of Hamas...
Hamas is guilty of a serious crime and deserves to be punished for it.
The best thing for the innocent civilians would be for hamas to surrender. I am sure Israel would stop fighting the same day. Why do you think so few people that are calling on Isreal to cease fire are not demanding the same of hamas? Hamas wants Israel to cease fire but has said they will not stop.
digress seems to be one of your favorite words. Plan on learning to use it correctly any time soon?
And how is Israel supposed to defeat Hamas without civilian deaths?
They could always turn against Hamas.
Because some want to hold Israel to a different standard and the Israeli civilians be damned.
Yes they do. And those that have allowed them to become ensconced will share in that punishment.
I am not calling for Israel to ceasefire, that is not for me to do and I won't. Cease-fire is for both sides as either side can break its power to hold back action! There is no such thing as a one-sided cease-fire is it?
If you stop writing me with repetitive comments, well. . . yes.
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I think it has already been proved there will be no reasonable or coherent answer to your question forthcoming.
Amen!
You would think so. There was an interview of a Hamas spokesperson on CNN yesterday. He was calling for an Israeli cease fire but also made it clear Hamas would not be part of any cease fire.
Hamas wants a ceasefire to regroup and plot.
Of course. As I posted above, Hamas has broken every ceasefire they have ever agreed to. The waited just long enough to rearm and regroup then started attacking all over again. Hamas simply just cannot be trusted to deal or negotiate in good faith.
If you claim you didn't understand his response, you'll claim you don't understand mine.
Wow. I got "twins." Here is what I understand, you dodged the question.
I'm sure you think so.
LOL. I would like you to know that I, and a lot of members on this site, have a lot of respect for Krishna's intelligence, wit, and his forthrightness to call a spade a spade. I personally lament the fact that you appear to think that if Israel did not do what it deems it has to do it would not suffer attacks from Hamas forever and it is most unfortunate that because innocent Gazans allow the militants to hide among them and are used as human shields by Hamas that no matter what Israel does to warn the civilians that the civilians become inevitable collateral damage. As Col. Richard Kemp said, no military force in all of history has done as much as the IDF to preserve the lives of the civilians. Can you not understand that, or are you one of the persons who believes it when Hamas says that Israel bombed that hospital where 500 civilians were said to have been killed, or more recently that Israel bombed the Al-Maghazi refugee camp yesterday notwithstanding that there is ample proof in both cases that the cause was misfired Islamic Jihad rockets?
Buzz, with all due respect I am not concerned about what happens to Hamas (ad nauseam). The president of the United States and his secretary of state have pleaded for a Pause. The U.N. has pleaded for the killing of civilians to stop. Neither has happened. . . yet. So who is responsible for the bombing of unarmed civilians in such a case.
Unarmed civilians have done nothing to deserve to die for, and but for this case. . .many conservatives would likely agree.
I am done writing the same position over and over again. Let's just watch this space for 'new' developments of conversational interest to NT.
It does not escape me which comment you chose to respond to this time around. No, not at all.
Contingent on a hostage release?
Unarmed civilians hostages have done nothing to deserve to die for, and but for this case. . .many progressives would likely agree.
Having just awakened (dare I use the word "woke" these days?) there were so many of your bleeding heart comments from which to choose to reply, I chose one where you disagreed with the person who was my first friend when I signed up on Newsvine about 16 years ago and for whom I have the utmost respect and appreciation. As well, that comment led me to make the point I wished to make. Let us just consider that I disagree with your opinion, because, in my opinion, Hamas has made it virtually inevitable that the civilians that the Hamas government which should do whatever it can to protect has instead caused them to suffer the consequences of the Hamas government's intentions and actions. Let me make my opinion perfectly clear. The civilian deaths in Gaza are the fault of Hamas, not the fault of Israel. So if you were genuinely interested in stopping the carnage, you and the rest of the bleeding hearts in the world need to protest and demonstrate with the message telling Hamas to surrender, not for Israel to stop.
Whatever.
You comments say otherwise. Enough said.
Pandering politicians in leadership roles are pressuring Israel as we speak. This pressure will lead ultimately to a greater loss of like from the real victims, the Jewish people. We must insist our administration back off and allow this difficult mission to end with the elimination of Hamas.
We cannot allow our politicians to capitulate to the hate and bigotry we are seeing here in the west on our campuses and in these pro Hamas rallies. They are the minority. Most Americans want Hamas brought to Justice despite the delusional hate demonstrated daily by these morally incapable few.
What are you talking about. Your comment is to vague, put some 'bite' into it so we can grasp where you stand and can agree or disagree with that position. Calling people haters for simply questioning or answering. . . which is it that concerns you enough to label them "pro-Hama" is a cop-out. Yes, a cop-out.
[deleted]
(Remember-- Hamas did this before Israel retaliated).
In one house, they murdered a pregnant woman, they split open her belly and they stabbed the baby.
And you have the nerve to say:
Ain't Jews tired of all this killing in the M/E
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My friends on the left want a cease-fire. Why aren’t they demanding that Hamas surrender, instead?
I have some questions for my colleagues on the left.
We’ve worked together for years. We’ve had happy hours and coffees, and taken our kids on playdates. We’ve worked to pass bills and elect public servants together. We have marched together, celebrated and mourned together.
We have carefully avoided the subject of Israel, and when we have discussed it, we have set firm boundaries to assure our friendships weren’t destroyed.
Now we can avoid it no longer.
Many of you are demanding a cease-fire. I can understand why.
I too mourn the loss of innocent life, especially the children. The loss of entire families in Gaza fills me with grief. I have supported peace my whole life.
But I am not ready to advocate for a cease-fire. And I have some questions for you about why you think you should.
I am struck by the fact that while calls for a cease-fire are loud, few seem to have any clarity about what conditions a cease-fire should require. Hamas’ record with cease-fires is less than reassuring: Just weeks ago Hamas broke a cease-fire in order to launch a horrific attack on Israeli civilians during a national holiday. Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton recently said that a cease-fire would be a “gift” to Hamas, as they would only use it to rebuild and repair their capacity to launch attacks. And senior Hamas officials have openly said they aim to repeat these terror attacks “ over and over ” until “Israel is destroyed.”
Related
Whatever you think of Israel’s actions, it is unreasonable and unjust to ask Israel to unilaterally disarm after being victims of the deadliest day of violence against Jews since the Holocaust — especially in the face of such threats.
Have you so quickly forgotten that Hamas launched this war by massacring close to 1,400 Israelis in an unprovoked attack that targeted innocent civilians? Hamas massacred children in their beds, slaughtered music lovers at a celebration of peace, used rape as a weapon of war, and kidnapped at least one elderly Holocaust survivor to use as a hostage, as well as dozens of children.
Don’t Israeli victims of terror deserve justice too? Isn’t the least we can give them a pledge to do everything we can to ensure no one else suffers atrocities at Hamas’ hands — a pledge that a cease-fire with Hamas might make difficult to uphold?
So: What concession would you argue must Hamas face in order to secure a cease-fire, both in acknowledgment of the horror they’ve inflicted on Israel, and to ensure the group would actually observe such an agreement? Would you demand Hamas surrender? Agree to extradite its leadership to stand trial? Free hostages taken from Israel? Hold elections — a basic democratic responsibility it has refused to fulfill time and again?
If Israel agrees to a cease-fire, will my friends on the left finally hold Hamas accountable on the international stage — for their crimes against Israelis and Palestinians alike?
I’ll remind you that you repeatedly chant that “ Palestinian lives matter ” — but where have your voices been as Hamas has executed and tortured Palestinians, set Palestinians up to be used as human shields , and used a fortune i n international aid money to fund weapons to use against Israel rather than basic humanitarian systems for the territory they govern? Will your call for care for Palestinian lives finally include accountability for the terror group that has destroyed so many of them?
Or do Palestinian lives only matter to you when you can dehumanize Jews?
Perhaps most importantly: How will you reckon with Israel’s clear need to defend itself — a need more apparent now than any time in recent decades?
For the past 20 years parts of the American left have decried every single Israeli security measure as unjust and racist. Every wall is apartheid , every fence is oppression, every checkpoint is racism. Israel’s blockade, enacted after Hamas violently seized control of the Gaza strip in 2007, creates an “ open-air prison .” I must have heard that phrase a thousand times, and I still have no idea what it means. Even the Iron Dome , which does not harm Palestinians and saves Israeli lives, you wanted to defund .
Remember when you assured me that those rockets were just falling in fields and would never do real harm? You were wrong. Not only have the rockets gotten worse, but we now know Hamas can and will launch mass atrocities against Israel. If you oppose every attempt to keep Israelis safe, you are sending the message that Jewish blood is cheap — and encouraging groups like Hamas, which explicitly treat it as such.
The fact that cease-fire calls have focused almost exclusively on Israel shows me that there is a deep antisemitic rot within the left that has conditioned people to view Jewish lives as less important. American leftists have minimized Israeli losses, dehumanized Israelis , endorsed violence and inflamed the conflict with outlandish rhetoric for years. You wanted to “ globalize the intifada .” Every time you yelled these things you damaged efforts to build peace.
You have used your rhetoric to erase the existence of Mizrahi Jews, Ethiopian Jews and other Jews of color to claim that Israel is an entirely white state populated by European colonizers. You ignored Jews’ clear claims of indigenousness to the Levant and claimed we were “ settler colonialists .” You justified terrorism and worked to demonize Zionism.
When your rhetoric sounds exactly like that of far-right white nationalists, doesn’t that disturb you? From hate crimes in London to violent intimidation at Cooper Union , you have helped to make Jews less safe: Early data shows a 388% increase in incidents of antisemitism since Oct. 7.
American Jews have been a critical part of a strong vibrant left throughout American history. We were at the forefront of the labor movement , marched for civil rights, stood at Stonewall, fought for women’s rights , gay marriage , and much more. I am deeply grateful to those on the left, from elected officials to activists to writers, who have awakened to antisemitism and are standing tall against it. I am deeply grateful to President Biden, who has declined calls for a cease-fire and said he supports a “pause” to provide time to free prisoners, and the leaders across Congress who have stood strong with Israel and stood against rising antisemitism.
I am grateful for those pushing Israel to be the most just and moral it can be, in good faith.
The left is meant to prioritize justice, equality and dignity. You cannot be the left if you endorse authoritarianism, terrorism, and brutality. There should be no space on the left for those attempting to justify, excuse or “contextualize” Hamas’ attack on Israel.
We are stronger together when we fight hate, poverty, cruelty and systemic injustice and oppression. If you look at Jewish children and see combatants that do not deserve defending, your progressive principles are lacking. If your desire to end hate stops when you see a Star of David, you are abandoning those principles to stand with the same bigots we are supposed to fight together. If you cannot allow the horrors of the Simchat Torah massacre to change your perspective, than it is not the pro-Israel Jew who no longer belongs on left. It’s you.
Damn good article with lots of great questions.
I wonder how many advocating for an immediate cease-fire will recognize themselves in the article?
I wonder how many so concerned about innocent Palestinians will condemn Hamas and demand that it be removed?
My guess is zero.
The question that was asked in the article that is IMO an unanswerable response to the bleeding hearts is that they have only demanded that Israel stop, WHY HAVE THEY NOT DEMANDED THAT HAMAS SURRENDER?
What I can say, and I think it is clearly indicated by my comments on this issue, is that many of those on the left (although not all) have successfully pushed me to the right.
I condemn Hamas and demand it be removed. Hamas committed a criminal act against a(nother) sovereign power that resulted in the death of unarmed Israelis and must pay the price for having done so. Israel is justified in acting to remove the offense of Hamas.
Exactly.
And, unfortunately, to do so means innocents will die. There is only one other way to be rid of Hamas, and that is for Palestinians to turn on Hamas themselves and save Israel the trouble.
I don't see that happening in my lifetime.
This is the single point I have been trying to get you to see.
I don't know why you think it impossible for Gazans to turn on Hamas, because a case in point saw Iraqis turn on Saddam Hussein and his sons. And Egyptians turn on Kaddafi. This situation is similar in that there is a war going and wars make for strange bedfellows. Bombs are falling all around. The noise, the gore, the chaos! Anything is possible right now in Gaza!
A word about innocent lives being lost: It's telling when most conservatives in this country can remember to hold accountable ONLY a single individual in our country for use of high-powered weapons which a single GUILTY individual wields to take away a multiplicity of lives (last known incident 18 dead-shooter makes 19 possibly).
But these same conservatives are adamant that the INNOCENT collectively should just DIE alongside the Guilty individuals when the guns are in the hands of Hamas!
It seems all the value some conservatives place on life is not consistent, but tailored to party-think!
Now exactly how did my statement imploring Palestinians to rid themselves of Hamas jibe with that? It's like you don't read my comments.
Right.
But for now, the facts tell us that Palestinians haven't shown much inclination to get rid of Hamas themselves or to cooperate with the Israelis to have them do it. For this alone, they bear some responsibility for their current situation.
I'm gonna skip the mundane 'conservative bad man' rant tonight.
The US Army killed his sons and captured Saddam
Do you mean Libyans and Gaddafi? Yes, some turned on him after we bombed the shit out of his government.
Israel is fighting a war of self-defense, to stop will condemn the victims to future atrocities.
I don’t think that Ismail Haniyeh is reading NT.
What kind of "inclination" might that be? Many of the commenters here have explicitly stated that Hamas does not care about Palestinian life or livelihood when it conflicts with Hamas' agenda/mission. So how are Palestinians in-charge of their situation? As we can see, many of the Palestinians are "voting" with their feet to leave and go somewhere/anywhere where Hamas and war are not! Hamas controls the exits out of Gaza, nevertheless.
My comment clearly defined it. It is like you don't read my comments.
Palestinians should seize the chance to rid themselves of Hamas. Failure to do so makes them complicit with terrorism.
Actually, Israel and Egypt controls the exits.
Don't be petty. Petty is valueless.
Get whatever you can from our "discussions" because I am sure its having an "impact" on you somewhere deep in your unconscious mind. Peace.
I agree. But apparently this is easier said than done. After all, the GOP routinely fails every opportunity to rid themselves of a single individual - Trump. If the freedom of choice here in the USA cannot find a way to simply NOT nominate a traitor then I can imagine a profound challenge for Palestinians to remove their entire, ruthless government and fix the mistake of 17 years ago.
The normal reply when someone writes that no one should kill UNARMED INNOCENT BYSTANDERS and THE LIKE is: "Yeah, true." Why are some conservatives seeing it different in this case?
Thank you, Libya/ns and Gaddafi (been a while since seeing the spelling of the name). A war of self-defense can not give license to kill UNARMED CIVILIANS so I hope that is not what you are implying with your statement.
Thank you, but some things go without saying in the interest of time and digital space.
That has no place in this discussion.
No one but you is responsible for your misconceptions.
Well, gee, thank you ever so much for dragging Trump into yet another conversation having absolutely nothing to do with him.
Petty?
I see a big distinction between Hamas and Israel, Hamas and Egypt.
I think the normal reply to "What should Israel do to protect its citizens?" should be "Eliminate Hamas, and we realize that civilians will unfortunately die".
Try to answer the question.
I have answered questions from you many, many times, all while waiting for YOU to answer some.
Never demand from me what you are famously unwilling to do yourself.
Are you going to TRY and answer the question?
I won't dignify the "question" with an answer, as it deserves NONE.
I’ve read that about 50,000 southern civilians were killed in the Civil War. A liberal democrat was President when we bombed Germain and Japanese cities. A moderate Dem was President when we used atomic bombs on Japanese civilians.
We had a Dem president whole dramatically in increased the use of drones to kill in-uniform people. His criteria for counting the dead was any male, 16 or older was considered a dead terrorist unless there was conclusive evidence that he wasn’t.
Do you think those presidential decisions were wrong?
So you can't answer a question about Palestinian humanity? Is it because don't know how or because you are at a loss of words?
I think you are desperate to not deal with the situation at hand. That's what I think. What "had" been done is not changeable. This is happening now and in real-time, lives can be saved by letting UNARMED CIVILIAN men, women, children, elderly, infirmed, babies, youths, disabled, handicapped, live to see the future. The operative word, being: UNARMED.
It is indeed sad that Palestinians have chosen to eat, sleep, work, and pray with known terrorists, and allow themselves to be used as pawns and human shields because of Hamas.
When Palestinians act to rid themselves of the cancer turn amongst them, then my 'sympathy' will turn more favorable to them.
Are YOU at a loss of words to describe how best Israel should protect is own citizens?
Read the comments above and below. That's all I got to your question as my ANSWER.
Such a predictable comment. I used GOP:Trump as an example backing up my point about Palestinians:Hamas and, of course, all you can see is the word Trump thus you ignore the point and just whine about the example.
Such a typical thing that happens here far too often, folks toting Trump around like excess baggage, ready, able and more than willing to yak about Trump no matter the topic.
Truly I expect no less at this point.
Which is again a typical non answer.
I have and will continue to deal with this war or “situation” as you call it. I think that you remain desperate to avoid answering most questions.
You keep focusing on my example and ignoring the point I made. You are the one yakking about Trump rather than discussing the topic (I discussed the topic in my original comment).
Do you have anything thoughtful to say about the topical point I made in my comment @13.1.13 or are you going to keep going with feeble taunting attempts?
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That's full of shit. Full Stop.
Except for his whole comment being pretty darn accurate!
Can you just stop already. Do you even understand when 'over-expressing' kicks in? Let's 'wind down' already. This will be my last comment on this topic to you about what we have already gone over.
I can only report what I see, or in this case, what so don’t see.
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Anything is possible I suppose, but when will they start moving in that direction? What will it take?
See the PSR poll and report HERE from June 2023, just a little over 3 months prior to Hamas' brutal attack on Israeli civilians.
The following is also quite disturbing:
So the people of Gaza wishing to vote overwhelming support the leader of Hamas Ismail Haniyeh against the president of the Palestinian Authority or the Prime Minister. And yet it is Hamas that has made sure they haven't had the vote since Hamas seized control of Gaza in 2007. The only one they would support more would be Marwan Barghouti who is potentially more violent and vehement about wiping Israel off the face of the earth than is Hamas. The dude was a convicted terrorist who went to prison for murderous attacks on Israeli civilians as a leader of the first and second Infitadas!
Time will tell if any of this changes given what Hamas did on October 7, but in order for this terrible violence to end, it will HAVE to change. Cooperation and coexistence cannot happen as long as the vocal/voting majority of Palestinian people continue to support violent terrorists and extremists bent on complete annihilation of Israel and its people.
Any combatants against Israel should be dealt with according to Jewish rules of engagement, in my opinion. Combatants.
It's a stupid question, CB. Of course no one wants innocent, unarmed civilians to be killed but, out here in real life, civilians get killed in war.
So, let's look at the ridiculousness of your position. You say conservatives are all over not blaming other gun rights citizens for what lone wolf individuals do. That is true.
You also say some (most, in my opinion) conservatives see nothing wrong with what Israel is doing in Gaza. That is also true.
You want us to believe these situations are somehow the same. They are not. Mass shooters do not have public support. They do not act according to an ideology held by anyone other than themselves. They aren't acting for a cause. They are just people who go out and kill people for no reason.
Hamas, on the other hand, is made up of Palestinians. I read that a poll taken not long before Oct 7 said 75% of Palestinians saw Hamas in a favorable light. Hamas. The murderous terrorists that have openly made it plain they want to kill every single Jew. People want us to believe that Hamas and Palestinians are two different things, but they are not. The "innocent" Palestinian people had 17 years to do something about Hamas but they never did. From the very beginning Palestinians have wanted Israel to die and they still do.
And you. You want us all to get behind a cease fire so you can feel all warm and fuzzy about how wonderful and peace loving you are. Such a moral fellow you are. Only you leave out the cost of the cease fire. Israeli blood. Because Hamas is never going to stop. Ever. They don't care about life. They love death. They think every civilian, every Hamas terrorist that dies goes straight to their paradise. They simply don't care about anything other than killing every single Jew they can.
So, as much as it is a waste of time to ask you questions you never answer, if Hamas wants a cease fire, why don't they give up the hostages? If the innocent Palestinians want to not die, why don't they leave Gaza city? Why don't they ask for international support in getting rid of Hamas? Why doesn't Hamas surrender? What fantasy do you envision ensuing if Israel buckles to the retards who demand they stop?
Israel has tried to make peace since the beginning. They have tried over and over again. Stuck their necks out time and time again and look what it got them. What will it take to get you to see the truth? Don't bother with answering that because it's rhetorical. You never will see the truth. You only ever see that fantasy world you live in where, if Israel would just give peace a chance, everything will work out. My guess is that even if Palestinians and the rest of the Muslims managed to kill all the Jews, you still wouldn't see the truth. You'd just say, "See! Now we have peace. It all worked out in the end."
You and your "warm fuzzies" point out where I have written a cease-fire is something I wish to see happen. Please proceed to prove it. . . . May be I didn't and it escapes me. Go right ahead. . . .
A complete and utter ceasefire is the ONLY way to make sure civilians are not killed.
I thought you said you wanted Israel to stop killing 'innocent' civilians--didn't you, repeatedly?
Well, you can't help yourself can you. . . "retards" really? How is that conducive to a healthy discussion? I'll answer that. It is not! In fact, it is a COC violation:
So you don't want a "pause"?....
And then:
So, which is it, CB? If you're not calling for a pause or a cease fire, how could I be talking about you? Further, since I don't mention anyone by name it isn't a violation. If you include yourself in that category, that's on you. Furthermore, indirect violations are so common in here it is impossible to enforce. For example, all the derogatory things you've said about conservatives while speaking to me, a conservative, has never gotten a deletion that I've ever seen.
Good questions. Ask them. I am not in Palestine as you well know. And, yes those are great questions. But, but, Hamas may be Palestinian but where do you conclude that all Palestinians are Hamas?
And why oh why is a Christian like yourself "gung-ho" or assenting to killing innocent children in Palestine. It is said that Gaza Strip is nearly 48 percent upwards thereabouts under-age, non-adult children. And. . .you are telling me to treat them like trained terrorists? Why? Because you don't value their youth and so they do not deserve to live? Who are you?
So now you're just attacking and doing so in error. You ask a question (label it rhetorical) and then proceed to try an 'tear me a new one' with your "guessing." All this time I have held Hamas responsible for its acts of violence against Israel. All these many comments I have given my SUPPORT/consent to Israel to deal with Hamas "accordingly." All this time I have patiently and diligently stated in many variations on a theme that God wants humanity to "suffer the children" and to defend the weak, widows, orphans, and feeble men, women, and children. And that includes those who are UNARMED and defenseless against Hamas and bombs.
And you have the gall to insult me.
You who 99.99 percent of the time won't/don't bother to address me at all even when it is a proper discussion where we turn to each other in discussion. Let me tell you what I think. I think I can talk to the worse person on this site if there is an opening do so. You, on the other-hand, told me that it is best that we hide behind a chat wall to talk and when I exercised my option to address you in front of everyone you deferred and let me mostly to hang out and dry. Then you told me that my Christianity was not the Gospel. Then, you snubbed my comments on your own blog. . . I participated and you snubbed me completely.
Now you are here and I ignored you. Happy to keep the peace. But here you are with your arrogance telling me I don't support Israel and that children and the elderly are not INNOCENTS and seemingly that although you can't prove it - all Palestinians are haters of Jews and are trained and waiting a turn to kill Jews.
You can't possibly know this!
The vote. That vote that put Hamas in power occurred in 2005.
You are going on the record first to state: 1. All the children born since 2005 are Hamas Supporters. 2. All Palestinians agree with Hamas' 2023 activities. 3. All Palestinians (including the children) voted "in" Hamas. 4. All Palestinians knew Hamas would attack Israeli civilians in a 2023 invasion and approve of it. 5. Therefore, all Palestinians deserve to suffer because of Hamas.
Well, you're wrong. The community of nations say you are wrong. You are not an authority unto yourself. And finally, Israel is a powerful nation, and it needs its powerful friends. Thus, in the end, Israel is more apt to listen to the international questioning about proportionality, body counts, and genocide-curious considerations than right-wing U.S. "chest-thumping" who continuously defend the blood-letting by old men/women/children and even infants in Gaza.
It's late. I am going off-line. See you. . . here Sunday if you wish to continue this "discussion."
Nope. You're mistaken. I am pretty sure I asked you:
And yet here you are back asking me to digress with you some more. No, thank you!
The president of the United States is calling for pause/s. I don't care about it and have not mentioned the word before pause here or "ceasefire" except in explanation to someone asking about it. My simple concern is this: Palestinian unarmed civilians humanity. Civilians have human rights the world over too. And the reason why Israel is so outraged against what Hamas did is this: Hamas attacked and horribly to the lives of UNARMED and DEFENSELESS ISRAELI CIVILIANS.
And it is disgusting that anyone would want to return the harm due Hamas poured hotly on and over the heads of Unarmed, defenseless Palestinian civilians.
This is not who we are: Are is it? And if so, how long has it been like this for us?
I'm sorry. . . where is the confident 'slamming' Drakkonis who wrote this. . . "And you. You want us all to get behind a cease fire so you can feel all warm and fuzzy about how wonderful and peace loving you are. Such a moral fellow you are. Only you leave out the cost of the cease fire. Israeli blood. "
That's not a collective you. That's me, the individual. Me!
Do you have proof I wrote about wanting a cease-fire? Or you so arrogant that you can't apologize for your mistake?
Finally, you are now "skirting the CoC" to be engaging in this line of discussion deeper. I only listed the CoC so as to make you aware - not to get into a wide discussion of it.
Good night! (I am warm sitting here, but my bed is about to help me get all "fuzzy" too.)
Drakkonis, let me tell you something. It is scandalous when grown, intelligent people - and some religious - can ignore the innocence of children who are being blown into pieces and given life-long injuries at a tender young age.
Some conservatives in the United States clamor about the rights and wrongs of child neglect, abuses, and what they label gender 'mutilation.' They use the strongest and most offensive labels and profanities they can pen and utter to discount who those children wish to be.
And yet here some conservatives are 'championing' a level of violence against children so horrendous that the U.N and International community sees its role as needing to step in and demand a stop to it. But, some religious conservatives are not even asking are praying for the children. So damn sad.
Then, we have this area of the world. The "Holy Land." The Holy Land. The land were God is said to have visited. And this is what they do to children by the world's three great religions. This is what the Holy Land does to elderly/disabled/feeble/poor/wretched men, women, and children . . .in God's name?
IN GOD'S NAME?
This is outrageous. This is to the shame of all involved in it over there and over here.
Already did. It's, again, apparent you will not answer. Know why? Because you aren't concerned about anything other than promoting your fantasy. That's why you never answer questions. You seem to think if you spout your insanity long enough, others will catch it as well.
The part where the majority had a favorable opinion of Hamas, at least before the war started.
I'm not. Neither is Israel, in my opinion. They told them to leave. They didn't. Their deaths are on their own heads and Hamas'.
Strawman. That is your opinion of what Israel is doing, not mine. My position is that the Palestinian civilians have had 17 years to change course and they didn't. They have let Palestinian Hamas use them for human shields for all that time. Now that Palestinian Hamas has done something that cannot be forgiven, they are paying the price for their own inaction and support of Hamas.
I don't think the IDF enjoys or desires to kill innocent civilians but it happens in war. They are going to make sure that Hamas will never be able to do this again, as is their right. You are making Israel responsible for what Palestinians did. I find that reprehensible.
So please kindly explain HOW THE FUCK THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO THAT WHEN THEY CAN'T SHOOT BECAUSE YOUR "INNOCENT" CIVILIANS ARE BEING USED AS SHIELDS INSTEAD OF LEAVING LIKE THEY WERE GIVEN THE CHANCE TO????
Perhaps you have forgotten or never read where God told the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child, all the animals, everything, when they took over the promised land? He did so as judgment for what the Canaanites had been doing for the last 400 years, remember? God is not a soft fluffy snuggle toy. He understands perfectly well that actions have consequences. He understands people die in war, both the innocent and guilty, the good and the bad. Based on what He has done in the past, I would not dare to claim that He would disapprove of what Israel is doing, as long as Israel makes a reasonable effort to keep the deaths of innocents as low as they can.
And, by the way, you do realize that no one knows just how many of these innocents have died, don't you? Last I heard it was up to 9,000. Do you know where that figure comes from? Hamas. Yes, the terrorist outfit that couldn't tell the truth even if it benefitted them. In actuality, nobody, not even they know.
Yes, because it's always pointless. I'm only talking to you right now out of a combination of boredom and being pissed at how deliberately obtuse you are on this subject. It isn't hard to understand, yet you make ignoring anything relevant for the platitude "But, the children!" Well, who's children, CB? Apparently not the Israeli children. You want to give Hamas a chance to rest and refit so that we can save the Palestinian children whose parents put them in harm's way in the first place.
Yeah, I tend to do that when you ask me questions and I answer but do not return the courtesy. You never answered a single question put to you.
Yes, I can. There's this handy thing called "history" and if you look into it, you can find that Palestinians have hated the Jews from the beginning. Ever heard of the Nakba? It means "disaster". It refers to when Israel supposedly pushed all the Arabs (they weren't called Palestinians then) out of Israel. Only, that isn't the reality. What really happened was that they were persuaded to leave, temporarily, by other Arabs so that they wouldn't get hurt by the five armies from five Muslim nations that attacked Israel in 1948. For the Arabs who would later be called Palestinians, the Idea was that these armies would go in and kill all the Jews and then they could come back and have it all. Only it didn't work out that way.
Want to know what would have happened to most of them had they stayed? They'd be Israeli citizens today. Want to know how I know that? Because that's where the Arab, Bedouin, Druze and all the other non-Jewish Israeli citizens today descended from. And if you don't believe me, look it up. You won't of course, because facts don't matter to you. Just your fantasy.
No, I'm not wrong because those aren't my words or position. It's just more of that fantasy world you appear to be trapped in no matter how many people try to explain to you what reality actually is.
You've got to be kidding me.
Anyway, since I expect more of the usual nonsense from you I will probably just go back to ignoring you. Have a nice day.
Do you know anything about the history of the US in warfare? Anything at all? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Firebombing of Tokyo? Dresden? And that's just a very few examples from WWII.
There are no conservatives that champion violence against children. Children are not Israel's target or goal. People such as yourself put in in those terms to attempt to guilt others into your desire for a pause or cease fire (and stop with the nonsense that you haven't advocated for such). The violence is directed at Hamas. The death of innocents is on their head for not only not protecting them but actually using them as shields. Why is it you don't put the blame where it belongs? Israel has two choices, protect their own people or protect someone else's by sacrificing their own.
It's similar to the US and Mexico, in my opinion. If our government wasn't so corrupt, it would be giving Mexico an ultimatum. Either clean up the drug cartel problem on your own or we're going down there and make you do it or declare war, either works for me. Why? Because what's going on in Mexico is killing our children. But money is more important to our government than we are so they do nothing. In fact, they make it as easy as possible to cross the border.
Who has ‘championed’ violence against children? Since you never answer, I will. No one that I’ve read or heard.
When I used a historical analogy, you accused me avoiding the current “situation”,
No, don’t confuse men with land. Men planned and carried out 7 Oct and other men/women are dealing with that. The land is neutral.
Your tortured thinking? You don’t have to answer that.
No. The good news for me is I don't have to solve the M/E problem and you grandstand all you want with this farce of "20 twenty questions" and I will without equivocating ask you about the rights of UNARMED men, women, and children (disabled, handicapped, feeble-minded, poor, sick and lame, et cetera) that you, as a Christian man refuse to acknowledge their humanity.
"Insanity, inhumanity. What else you got? Worthless insults are a waste of time.
According to you all Palestinians are Hamas because the "majority had a—" so now, a majority of Palestinians voted Hamas into power in 2005? That's nonsensical. Do realize that if there is a majority then it opens up for a minority on the spectrum. Thus, all Palestinians did not vote for Hamas. All Palestinians are not Hamas.
It is obvious to me you have a clear bias against Palestinians.
Leave and go where? There are reports of Israeli bombs dropping in and near the safe zone/s and killing Unarmed Palestinian elderly men, women, and children (disabled, feeble-minded, handicapped, poor. . . ). Well, you know, those people whose humanity you ignore in your haste.
Why don't you ask Hamas about the rights of those people as they use them as human shields?
Israel has to protect its citizens, and that is damn nigh impossible without civilian deaths as designed and planned by Hamas.
Hamas attempts to get bleeding hearts to be on their side by pulling on the heartstrings of some folks who refuse to admit that Palestinians bear responsibility at least in part for their situation.
Oh, sure it is easy to pretend that Hamas can be defeated without civilian deaths but it for sure isn't realistic.
The ONLY thing being ignored here is the simple fact that civilians will die if Hamas is destroyed--by Hamas own design and desires..
There it is. You approve of killing unarmed civilian men, women, and children. How low the 'mighty' have fallen. Just kill "them" all is your view. And no, I am not making the IDF responsible for what Hamas did to Israel's families which is horribly wrong every day of the week. However, the usual manner of addressing wrongs is to find the offending parties and execute justice. You support standing afar off and lofting bombs and bullets indiscriminately.
What "high moral ground" is that?!
You assent to the indiscriminate killing of pregnant women, infants, children, men, women, cats, dogs, 'everything' that moves under a barrage of bombs. Admit it. You already have admitted to it.
Why do you deliberately misrepresent his words?
That's a cheap tactic--unless you can QUOTE him saying that????????
I suspect you can't.
You're intelligent enough to know it should never involve indiscriminate killing of children, women and infants. So are the leaders in this. Listen to their advisors/staff/teams. The world is watching the footage of death and destruction with an eye and mind towards proportionality (now) and who is dying.
Screw proportionality, it is worthless and serves no purpose in war.
So. . . you are an 'Old Testament' Christian, eh? What is that precisely anyway. You see God as a warrior God? Tell me, do you see UNARMED people as a danger? Because that is what you are behaving like. Unarmed means unarmed. You wish death and destruction on unarmed civilians. You clearly do.
And no I have not forgotten the wars in the Bible, and its ruthlessness. So that is the "high moral standard" you are standing on? In the 21st century you wish to invoke genocide or "mini" genocide.
I can envision you will send "thoughts and prayers" after the destruction.
Hamas in not the only one tallying deaths in Palestine. Watch some news. There are aid agencies and other valid sources (as good as you are going to get anyway) that are sharing what they see/hear/feel/count with the world. In any case, you admit the bombs are having a devastating effect on unarmed civilians so the real-time count is what it is. After all, my understanding is body parts can be difficult to sort out (two mangled legs/two mangled arms/one bloody head per person).
Then, don't bother writing me. I did not miss you at all. Get your excitement somewhere else. You can't browbeat me into submission, Drakkonis. None of us are really that big a deal. Israeli children and families should not have been attacked by Hamas. There I wrote it for the "thousand' time. So. . .now what? Hamas deserves to pay the cost. Unarmed civilians do not deserve death and destruction anymore than you or I do.
Quote or admit that is false.
Don't sell yourself short, CB, that's good news for many.
The rest of your comment is just you ranting. Let you tell it you don't have a position you can 'expose, because apparently you don't have enough time and space here to be plain about your position. Begs the question that you have hung around this long. Defend the powerless once and a while. God is probably watching.
Incidentally, when you referenced the Old Testament and its genocides, be clear. Or else somebody might draw a conclusion you approve of modern day genocides.
Probably only people who don't read and comprehend his posts.
Are those examples of who we are or who we were? This is the 21st century. . .join it.
Why wouldn't I know the history? Its been written about across three articles on this topic of Israel and Palestine.war.
On January 23, 2009, after three days into the White House, Obama authorized his drone strikes. Two drone strikes, three hours apart, in Waziristan, Pakistan, that killed one militant and ten or more civilians including children. Eight years and 540 drone strikes later, Obama expanded and normalized armored drones with death from above. Most of these strikes occurred where we weren’t at war, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan.
Welcome to the 21st century.
Or maybe borders and international blow-back has a role to play in politicians and governments do. But I repeat, because I will not let you establish an. .. untruth. . .about my points: I have not considered or expressed an interest in Pausing or Cease-fire up to this moment that I am writing. Hamas needs to get what is coming to it!
You can have your little negations about me all you wish-you have since we first got introduced on this site.
This is why it is important to recognize what is meant for you and what is specifically meant for someone else. My references to God is pointed/targeted to DRAKKONIS a believer and observer of Christian doctrines and practices. Him and other religious conservatives who wander around/across this site. That is, you are not privy to this line of discussion. Just leave it for somebody else.
The truth is rather ugly at times, and gets even uglier when ignored.
You got me thinking CB, we are in part shaped by the times that we live in. Do you think the Gen Z will be less fucked up than my Boomer generation?
You understand this is an open forum for ALL members, right?
I can't ask Hamas about anything across the great expanse between us. I don't even know any of them.
That said, I respect the humanity of any "human shields" and would wish or tell Hamas to let them go and to fight its own war without "them."
In this current war: Why won't you respect the humanity of unarmed civilians?
As to the rest of your comment its digression and not related to anything I agree with or have written. And your insults are bland.
So when should it end? Or, do you advocate for Barack Obama to have his "thousands of unarmed civilian deaths" and a future present to have his or her "tenths of thousands"?
I brought this 'small' statement up and now it has been days writing about it over and over ad nauseam. Never in my life did I ever expect any group of civil people demand a right to kill civilians in a time of war. It's the definition of a type of genocide.
Nope. not gonna play that game.
Ask a freaking LEGITIMATE question and I might answer.
I don't know. But hope springs eternal.
Of course. It seems you want to talk about religion with me on this public forum. Where in the Bible would you like to start??
I haven't advocated for the normalization of drone killings or the intentional killings of civilians.
What definition are you using?
Hope is a method for achieving nothing.
What are you reading that I am not saying??????????
I figured that one would throw you for a loop.
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The big question seems to be by what means is Israel supposed to remove the threat that Hamas presents to Israel and her people. The liberal left appear to favor the kid gloves one hand tied behind the back approach. Israel has tried that for far too long and keeps getting burned by the untrustworthy and backstabbing savages that are Hamas. Israel has removed the gloves and Hamas has to pay the price. As I said above, Hamas has sewn the wind, now they must reap the whirlwind. It us time!
Agreed. Again, how do you feel about those who would support, fund, vote for, encourage, or shelter such combatants? How would you convince them to stop supporting and reject such combatants and bring an end to the violence that is killing so many on both sides?
I am not in a mood to persuade anybody to do anything, Freewill. If/when somebody, be it individual or group, picks up and points a gun in the direction of another person they become a valid target to be shot/killed. As to voting in Palestine—my understanding is Palestine only was permitted to do so ONCE and in 2007 Hamas ran a coup to violently eliminate any other "supporter" for the Palestinian people on the Gaza Strip. We all know how these matters go.
The strong and weak Palestinians alike become 'prey' and are compelled to serve those who have the 'Might to make right.' They, the supporters and the non-supporters become cogs in a larger machine seeking to mastermind its own survival at the top of the order.
My sole interest in this situation is as somebody who speaks up for unarmed civilian men, women, children, disabled, infirm, feeble-minded, institutionalized, old, aged, weak, poor, sick, hungry, thirsty. I ask that Israel and Hamas remember their humanity even as they deal with the humanity of these people. Everybody loves their children. . . just as much as Westerners.
Israel has shown remarkable patience regarding Hamas.
No, you don't have to solve it. You just get to stand on your imagined moral high ground and tell everyone else how bad they are without having an actual workable solution yourself. You're a peach, CB.
No, I have a clear bias against their culture, which seems to be founded on hate and revenge, for most of them. Not all, of course. I have watched videos of Palestinian exiles who actually try to do something about Hamas. There are Palestinians who are citizens of Israel who actually fight for Israel because they know Israel doesn't live on hate and revenge.
Yes, there it is. You, once again, having me say something I did not say. You are a waste of my effort, CB. I don't have time for your deceptions.
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Forgive me but I don’t understand what you mean by that. So I am kindly asking. You have spent several days here trying to persuade people to implore Israel to stop defending themselves against Hamas if they can’t do it without further loss of innocent Palestinian lives. Yet when I ask you about convincing Palestinians to stop supporting those like Hamas and stop them from taking innocent civilian lives in attacks aimed directly at innocent Israeli civilians, you aren’t in the mood?
The fact of the matter is that Hamas is not going to stop targeting Israeli civilians even if Israel backs off on its attempts to go after Hamas while it embeds itself further into the Palestinian populace. They have said as much and proven that they will just keep coming until every last Israeli Jew is wiped off the face of the earth. Conversely if Hamas were overthrown internally and the violent threats against Israeli civilians was stopped, so would the IDF stop having to flush the cowards out from behind innocent Palestinian men, women and children. That is where all of our persuasive energy should be focused as that is the ONLY way this violence and loss of innocent life is ever going to end, IMHO.
And that is commendable my friend. I feel the same way about innocents and unarmed on both sides of this conflict. But if no energy is expended trying to persuade Palestinians to stop supporting these terrorist groups among them the violence is never going to end and innocents will continue to die.
Whatever.
Whatever.
Whatever. Meh.
No. Actually, what I have been doing here is making a case for the lives of unarmed civilians. The protracted 'effort' is what makes it look like I am "imploring" people to do something. It is an important distinction. I have defended my position that I hold. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, this is "Newstalkers: Speak Your Mind!" - So I do.
Y'all, er NTers can believe and do whatever they wish at the end of the day.
Are there any HAMAS or Palestinians that you know of on this site to convey messages to? I have not read any.
I am going to post a Youtube video from Queen Rania of Jordan (she begins about a two-minutes into it. Warning: I don't know the queen's politics, biases, or agenda as she is not on my radar. But she was on U.S. tvs today saying this:
Hear what Queen Rania of Jordan said about Hamas and the 'root cause' of the conflict.
Again, I know little about the Queen. But these are her insights.
Use it or lose it, y'all.
Well said CB, well said.
Is Hamas abiding by the treaty when its killers are filming themselves murdering women, children, and retirees in kibbutz gardens?
I don't know. See the document above. Or google it.
I see that Hamas' violations are of no concern of yours.
Jordan is the only bright spot in the Arab ME. It offered displaced Palestinians a good deal even after a Palestinian assassinated there King and later tried to overthrow their government.
No,no, that's different because they are Palestinians.
I am beginning to feel from CB's steadfast refusal to accept the logic that there is no way Israel will, even CAN, stop its invasion of Gaza, for such an obvious reason that Hamas will NEVER stop trying to eliminate Israel and the Jews down to the last Hamas militant until the end of time, and as much as CB might deny it, his comments indicate a desire for Hamas to carry out its stated intention and reach its final goal. Hamas' technique of using human shields and usually safe facilities such as hospitals, mosques, churches, schools, UN shelters and refugee camps to hide its facilities, weapons and personnel make it absolutely impossible for there to be no civilian casualties. I think that in the circumstance it is useless trying to convince CB to change his stance. Let it go. Let his words "blow in the wind." I get the feeling that this seed is heading towards bearing a record number of comments for NT.
Might me true!
And yeah, I'm letting a great deal of this especially untoward criticism of me blow in the wind. Surprising though SOME of the criticism is. But, I will get over it; I have no choice. 
After-all, blowing stuff up is plain cool! As long as nobody is blowing up body parts of anyone somebody knows or is related. Wickedly Easy!
There are more articles than this one with the same theme, but what effect are they having? The only thing I've seen recently that has any effect to sway those students protesting in favour of Hamas who actually identified themselves by signing documents calling for support for Hamas and disparaging Israel and Jews generally is when major corporations and companies announced that they would never hire anyone who had signed those documents. Reading reports that many of those students then desperately tried to erase their names made me laugh - can this be called poetic justice or karma? Can what is happening to the civilians in Gaza who have supported Hamas, and I believe that most have, be called poetic justice or karma?
Hamas is guilty of attacking Israel and Hamas must pay for the crime committed by it.
I think it safe to say the majority agrees with you.
This seed got stale about a hundred comments ago.
When it gets stale, no problem, make New Orleans Bread Pudding with Rye Sauce, of course. It all a matter of attitude, my friend. You know, when life gives you lemons, make Limoncello.
Hamas would kill most of the people protesting about this. (Based on the way they do things)
name one atrocity that hamas is guilty of that the roman catholic church isn't in it's history...
isn't = doesn't have
oops.
What do Catholics have to do with this?
“From the river to the sea is an aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction, or hate. - Tlaib
Sure it is and your endorsement of “No peace on stolen land”, how does peaceful coexistence then work?
Her video ends with, “Joe Biden supported the genocide of the Palestinian people. The American people won’t forget.”
Tlaib is FOS and lies through her teeth!
Same goes for Omar and the rest of the hypocritical Squad!
If Israel calls a halt to the bombing or a pause in it is the assumption that Hamas will follow suit? I would not trust Hamas under any circumstances.
I doubt if the children being killed in the assault are hardened Hamas terrorists perhaps some of the women are as well as some of the men are so how to differentiate between terrorists and non-terrorists, IMO, next to impossible in most cases. Yet there are many of the Palestinians that are citizens of Israel and over 5,000 are fighting in the IDF. Many of them have friends and relatives in Gaza. The Bedouins are the same as citizens of Israel they are fighting in the IDF and they have friends and relatives in Gaza. Both of these groups are also dying for Israel. So you have a fairly unique situation where they are fighting and dying for Israel and also seeing their friend and relatives dying in the bombing of Gaza. Quite the conundrum for them and for many Israelis as well.
We have done exactly what Israel is doing now, killing tens of thousands of civilians and doing it knowingly. The fire bombing of 60 cities in Japan when tens of thousands of civilians were killed, and many burned to death. Of course, there were the two atom bombs we dropped on Japan. In the fire bombing of Dresden Germany, thousands more civilians were killed, we saw a repeat in Vietnam, where thousands more civilians were killed.
So now we are seeing it once again, right or wrong it is real and happening. Once again we are faced as are the Israelis with justifying this attack on Gaza. Is it moral? IMO, no it isn't but then nothing about war is moral.
The justification from Israel is Hamas attacked and slaughtered innocents and vengeance must be extracted for the Jews to survive as a people. Certainly, this is valid reasoning, but do we kill 10 Gazains for every Jew or 20 or 1,000 for every Jew? Do they keep medical supplies/sanitary supplies from Gaza so that disease runs rampant and kills thousands more? Does destroying Hamas include destroying the Palestinian population?
Tough questions, moral questions as well. What if Israel keeps up the bombing destroys Hamas but with that tens of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza die as well? What have they ''won'' a brief reprieve and in the next few years thousands of new terrorists are created by remembering what Israel did with the bombing and killing of their grandparents, parents, friends and relatives. Another decade same old shit.
Two recent event (s) have been taking place that put a darker light on this. Israel has been illegally forcing out and killing some Palestinians and Bedouins in the West Bank, these are some of the same people that are in the IDF fighting and dying for Israel.
As this is the story of a Bedouin family that are citizens of Israel on 10/7.
He lost one member of his extended family killed by Hamas, four were captured and are hostages in Gaza. He did something that he did not have to do he could have easily avoided it, but he didn't and as a result dozens of Jews are alive today. This shows you how complicated the situation is in Israel/Gaza/West Bank.
If you are going to comment on this part please read this article before commenting.
3 months ago who cared about people living in Gaza? (Posts 20 & 21 were removed as triplicate posts )
None of their Arab neighbors.