I imagine not a lot of people are open to this guy's arguments, but I think he is on the right track. 

All this condemnation is consistent with how Americans have long debated this subject. For decades, pollsters have asked voters, "Are your sympathies more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?" as though sympathy is a zero-sum contest with a winner and loser. That's certainly how many are acting today. It's almost as if people believe that denouncing the horrific slaughter carried out by Hamas would be nullified if they also express concern about the thousands of Palestinian civilians who are likely to be killed in the Israeli counterattack.

I have stopped by several times in the past few days but I haven't found the energy required to express my horror at the situation, for both the Israeli and Palestinian sides. 

There is always someone to blame for terrifically awful events. One may find someone or something that was ultimately "responsible" for the atrocities that were committed. This, of course, will lay mainly at the feet of the perpetrators and the group whom they did it for, Hamas. But if we look at history carefully, we see that many acts have been committed on many sides which could be construed as instigations to harmful retaliations. We should all be asking ourselves: Where does it end? What about piles of dead bodies on both sides justifies the piling on of more bodies on both sides? 

The article points out:

While war rages in Gaza, many Americans have turned their attention to each other. As politicians, organizations and even ordinary people declare their positions on the conflict, everyone else leaps in to judge what was said. The result is a kind of sympathy meter to assess whether each statement properly places the needle between Israelis and Palestinians.

Consider for a second that both peoples are not the problem, their respective governments are. My sympathies lie with people. 

There are people on the Palestinian side who are invested in a position that Israelis have mistreated the palestinian population, over a long period of time, and think that if they express too much sympathy toward Israel today they are watering down their overall position that they express to their readers/supporters/followers.

Roughly the same is true coming from the other direction. Now is clearly not the time to express sympathy for the Palestinians plight. The problem with that is that for some people it is never the right time to sympathize with the Palestinians and it will never be the right time. 

Consider for a second that both peoples are not the problem, their respective governments are. My sympathies lie with people. 

IMO a relevant question is-- who put those goverments in power?

Ah, yes, the same people who've spent the last few years screaming Nazi at every parent who doesn't want their daughter sharing showers with boys and who think opposing the sterilization of minors equals genocide now suddenly see both sides when confronted with actual Nazis.  Moral clarity exists when a teenaged boy minding his own business "smirks" at an old man harassing him. He's evil.  It's okay to fantasize about acts of violence   against the kid.  But decapitating babies?   Don't want to get mad about that.....

You have a real hard time staying on topic. This article is not in any way about the sterilization of minors. It makes me think that you dont really have a counter argument for the article on THIS topic, so interject another one. 

Yes, I know you like to silo topics and avoid discussions of principles or consistency, so you can make contradictory arguments depending on the political needs of the moment. But it's transparent as hell when the most shrill zealots flip on a dime to advocating for nuance.  It's relevant whether the author  applies the principles of  his argument in situations other than the one he's currently making   Have you not paid attention  to the zealotry of progressives the last decade? Progressives have an abundance of moral clarity, except when it comes to Jews being slaughtered.  

Moral clarity?  To me moral clarity is the difference between landing unexpectedly in the middle of a peaceful music festival and slaughtering hundreds of innocent civilians, burning down homes so the parents and children are forced out to be slaughtered or slaughtered and beheaded in their beds, all WITHOUT WARNING, and, on the other hand, dropping leaflets, making phone calls and sending emails WARNING civilians to get away from where a building would be bombed so they WOULDN'T be crushed by concrete falling on them.  At least I see a difference there, and yes, it DOES colour for whom I grieve.  I am both clear about it and consistent about it because I have watched the history of it both from afar AND from the location of it.  At least I'M not a person who would grieve or feel sorry for an Adolph Eichmann or a Dr. Mengele or an Adolph Hitler, because, after all, historically, there HAS to be a reason for their vicious inhumanity.

To me moral clarity is the difference between landing unexpectedly in the middle of a peaceful music festival

Excellent Comment Buzz, This line here brought to memory when the crazy bastard in Las Vegas who killed innocent victims at a music festival, there was condemnation of the actions and demands for retribution, now we see a segment of our society making excuses or trying to lessen the horrors perpetrated by a group of individuals, there should be no BUT! what Hamas did is indefensible. Period! 

I really don't think that any normal person, especially commenters on this site, in any way are attempting to excuse the conduct of Hamas. These actions were barbaric and extreme, and have no excuse. Period. 

Even contextually, the horrific actions taken by the Hamas terrorists are beyond anything reasonable.

So, now what is the proper way to deal with the situation? To listen to most people here, it would seem that to counter this indefensible act, they too are willing, in fact anxious,  for the Palestinian people to be exterminated for the actions of a terrorist government that was not necessarily of their choosing. 

This reaction has been compared to Civil War Generals and WWII Bombings of German cities. I would say that the comparisons are flawed by degree. This is not a fight to free  slaves and keep the country together, nor is it a fight to keep the world from succumbing to fascism and ideological depravity. I personally think that the Hamas terrorists should be rooted out and the planners found, arrested, tried and punished, as all dangers to a country should be.

I personally think that the Hamas terrorists should be rooted out and the planners found, arrested, tried and punished, as all dangers to a country should be.

Emphatically. Blanket killing of civilians is blanket killing of civilians, no matter who does it and its justification. If Irsael has intel on the leaders/heads of Hamas—deal with them in a manner of its choosing. Satiating one's appetite or begrudging passion for blood by injuring, maiming, and killing anything that moves in the vicinity of your enemy shows a desire for blood-lusting. It will forever change the brand of Israel as it is seen by the world. . .should that happen.

Better to 'hold.' Recalculate. Redistribute. Use intel and hunt down your enemy one by one or in small groups, then to destroy any/all innocent men, women, and children (civilians).

@ Thomas.

You left out Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  I think I made the point in my comment that Israel does more, in fact as much as can be done, to safeguard civilians from their bombings than any nation in the world has done historically to the present moment, and that includes your own nation. .

Excellent Comment Buzz, This line here brought to memory when the crazy bastard in Las Vegas who killed innocent victims at a music festival, there was condemnation of the actions and demands for retribution, now we see a segment of our society making excuses or trying to lessen the horrors perpetrated by a group of individuals, there should be no BUT! what Hamas did is indefensible. Period! 

But, but, but...don't you know that there are good people on both sides? 

(A former president said it so it must be true!!!!)

You left out Hiroshima and Nagasaki

I've always thought those were horrible mistakes. (Or at least if the first bomb was necessary, after the first bomb there was no need for a second!).

But to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, may I suggest you try this: Google Japanese Unit 731.

I posted a comment about the people of Gaza on another seed.

LINK -> thenewstalkers

You can add to Japanese Unit 731 what I read in the true story book Flyboys, about the Japanese soldiers eating the livers of the captured American airmen.

I personally think that the Hamas terrorists should be rooted out and the planners found, arrested, tried and punished,

Are Hamas terrorists any different than the "Jews will not replace us" activists that marched in Charlottesville? As one American politician remarked about them:

There are good people on both sides""good people on both sides

Are Hamas terrorists any different than the "Jews will not replace us" activists that marched in Charlottesville? As one American politician remarked about them:

"There are good people on both sides"

Once again we have a difference of degree.  Were some of them "as bad?" Well, one of them drove their car into a crowd of counter protesters. I do not think that most of the "Unite the Right" protesters had the same background experiences with Jewish people as Hamas has,  and therefore they don't really fall into the same category for comparison purposes. They are more like a "wannabe-weekend terror organization " that wouldn't want to have to miss work on Monday. They don't want to die. They are just pissed off, someone floated this idea by them, they picked it up, tried it on, and they liked it. So "Poof " they became antisemitic.  "Poof" - "Hey! Look guys.  I hate (insert  group here)". I think most of them would cry to their mommies if pressed. Some of them are the real-deal bastards, but most Americans don't have the commitment to any ideology that would cause them to sacrifice their comfort, much less their lives. 

Now, on the other hand, Hamas formed under arguably worse conditions than we enjoy in America.  What is more, when the pissed off young dude looked for something to hate, some source, he had it baked into him from the time he was young. It was societal. They hear it everyday. "Israel oppresses Palestinians. They came and took our land and when we tried to fight back they took even more with the help of the USA  and Europe they hold us down. That's why you don't have a job.They are the reason you are hungry. " 

Doesn't matter if it is completely true or not. Hamas gives people without any hope hope.  Some Palestinians look at Hamas and say,  "You've got it wrong! " But some isn't all, and until a whole lot more people do, Black Flag or the Palestinian Liberation Organization or Hamas or whatever replaces them will be singing the same call to prayer when the fresh batch of martyrs is buried. War begets War. Violence brings more of the same. How the hell do we break the cycle? 

How the hell do we break the cycle? 

Share the land; better than they have ever shared it before! The Jewish nation has established itself and has no plans of vacating the area or losing control of their spaces either. For the love of . . . give the Palestinians their freedom "To Be" - no matter how they live or what they do with freedom! Deal with criminals and enemies of Israel as such, but, .  . . .

. . . as you put it Thomas. . . "war begets war" AND oppression will beget more confusion, more oppression, and more hatred!

That blood, each drop of it that runs down-hill into the gutters. . . is a reason for either/both sides to hate each other. Just stop the blood-letting.

It is possible to feel terrible for what is quite possibly about to happen to innocent Palestinians.

It is also possible to understand there will never be peace between Israel and Gaza as long as Hamas is embedded in Gaza. 

The situation sucks but IMO Israel need to do what they need to do.  I now hear reports that Israel is telling Palestinians to go south and Hamas is not letting them.

Any Palestinian blood is on Hamas, not Israel.

I'm not sure "you're making me kill you" is the right message to send to civilians. 

Hamas is forcing it.  Hamas is making Israel go into Gaza which will result in Palestinian casualties. Israel is trying to give them at least a chance.

You have a better suggestion as to what the right message would be that would help Israel attain the objective of making sure Hamas is no longer a threat?

Are the civilians and children about to go to their death going to be any more understanding about it because Israel tells them "we had to" ? 

Some will blame Israel for firing the gun and some will blame Hamas for forcing them to. They have lived with Hamas for awhile and probably have an idea of how evil they are. I am not sure how much it matters.    Either way they will be dead. It sucks but again I am waiting for a better suggestion as to what the right message would be that would help Israel attain the objective of making sure Hamas is no longer a threat.

It would be better for Israel to say nothing instead of claiming  they are forced to kill civilians. 

How would that make it better?  Civilians will be killed.  Israel will be accused of all sorts of things just like they have in the past.  If they say nothing (like you suggest) many people will take that as an admission of guilt.  If they say something many people will say they are lying.  They are going to be looked at poorly by people wanting to look at them poorly.  I think this time they really don't care. 

It would be better for Israel to say nothing instead of claiming  they are forced to kill civilians. 

You still haven't answered the question when it is put to you. If, as seems to be your position, there is no justification for an action on Israel's part that results in the deaths of innocent children, what do you see as a path forward for Israel to get rid of Hamas? In fact, let's reset the clock. Hamas has just massacred 1,200 innocent Israelis. You, JR, have the power to decide how Israel responds. 

How would you have Israel respond, given the power?  

Hi, JR. Was wondering if you had an answer for 6.1.6 yet?

I am looking forward to it.

I have to agree with you wholeheartedly on that.  An eye for an eye shouldn't be the answer

Maybe, but sometimes it's the only answer that should be given...

If, as seems to be your position, there is no justification for an action on Israel's part that results in the deaths of innocent children, what do you see as a path forward for Israel to get rid of Hamas?

There is no justification for Israel killing civilians, plural. Indeed, the more civilians killed-the greater the offense. Solution? If one's mortal enemy won't come out and face you. . .then, it must be hunted down individually and in small(er) more personal settings and taken out. Of course, that is a longer set of processes and requires great discipline and patience. Ultimately, it will win the hearts and minds of people who did not die as collateral damage.

There can be no justification for killing the innocent. This nation learned this 'painful' lesson with the destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. That is, by now, we should understand that those cities destruction and rendering the civilian population null was overkill. One can be excused for wondering if the same result—end to the war for Japan could have been accomplished by a demonstration or several of overwhelming force and power of the bomb(s) on a military target alone or some deserted patch of land in Japan proper.

No

I am looking forward to it.

Unfortunately, we won't see it. That's kind of how these things work for those who support Palestinians or any other group that opposes the state of Israel. Their supporters want something like "But! The children!" and "the humanitarian crisis" to be the focus by which they try to tie Israel's hands. 

This is how it works concerning those who support Palestinian goals of eliminating Israel.

1. Condemn without reservation the atrocities committed by Hamas. The purpose of doing so isn't actually to express condemnation for an indefensible act, since many, if not most making such a denunciation eventually get to the "but" part. "But, this is what you can expect from oppressing a group of people." The purpose of such a denunciation, then, is simply to claim the moral high ground of having made the denunciation. It is simply a tactical device upon which to fall back on when further statements made by them actually justify what Hamas has done. Even if they think Hamas really had gone too far in this instance (and denying the fact the only difference between this incident and what they've been doing all along is the numbers involved) they only mean "too far" in the sense that it makes selling their preferred narrative that much harder. 
2. Give what Hamas has done the "proper context". This is done to sell the preferred narrative in a way that obscures the goal while preserving it. This is accomplished by two methods employed simultaneously. First, by playing to the erroneous assumptions of Westerners that Palestinians have the same values as we do. Concepts such as fairness, justice and what those things are comprised of and that they want the same sorts of things we do. Second, only speak of the issue from the Palestinian perspective in terms shaped by the assumptions of the first method. Get Westerners to think Palestinians just want the same things we do and make judgements based on that faulty assumption. 
3. Portray anything Israel does in response as a humanitarian crisis brought about solely by Israel. For instance, Hamas launches rockets from a school yard. Israel responds by destroying the launchers. Desired result? Israel shelled a school. That Hamas (or any other group) was present and would not have taken the action they did was an aside. The goal is less to pressure Israel from taking any particular action based on how it would be perceived but, rather, to shape the unfortunately shallow thinking of all too many Westerners. This is because Israel needs Western support, even though they will do what's best for them without it. 

These realities is why we won't see a response from JR. He recognizes, on some level, that whatever he says will be recognized for the BS that it is.  

You have a serious flaw in your presentation. But, let's just get to the heart of the matter instead of rehashing or digressing: 

Are you okay with a "path forward" that includes killing innocent children? And, if you are, how many innocent children is a "good" number before you will consider it overkill or blood-lusting revenge?

Because, that can be a reality too as any other. 

There can be no justification for killing the innocent

I agree to an extent, when those you proclaim to be innocent support the killing of other innocents then they're not really innocent themselves are they?

overkill

That's how you win/stop wars...

when those you proclaim to be innocent support the killing of other innocents then they're not really innocent themselves are they?

Here is the one million dollar question for you to consider: The premise here is INNOCENT people and children, not guilty people and children. If the Palestinians as a people are collectively guilty of what Hamas has done then by definition they are not innocent at all. 

So which is it: Innocent Palestinian men, women, AND CHILDREN or Guilty Palestinian men, women, and children?

Are you okay with a "path forward" that includes killing innocent children? And, if you are, how many innocent children is a "good" number before you will consider it overkill or blood-lusting revenge? Because, that can be a reality too as any other. 

Good point, CB. Now that I think about it, there's a point where the number of the enemy's children would become so great that the moral high ground would be to just give up and let them kill all your children, your mothers, fathers, son's, daughters, aunts, uncles and cousins instead. Thanks for helping me see the light. 

A majority of Palestinian men and to a lesser extent women voted in Hamas to represent Palestinians. Would you consider them innocent?

Trying to be clever, you obviously ducked the question. Is Israel a terrorist outfit/organization/state? If not, why risk becoming a terrorist group or being labeled as attempting terrorist activities by dedicating itself to death of Hamas at the cost of innocent men, women, and children.

Now, since you went there let me add: What God do you know of well, would approve of indiscriminate killing of men/women/children/disabled/old alike all because a true villainous group/organization did something similar to Israel?

The question is this: What do you consider Palestinians to be: Innocent or Guilty?

As for me, I don't know enough about this protracted, complex grouping of peoples and their social dynamics. Moreover, that isn't the question anyway.

The question: Are you okay with killing innocent men/women/children in order to effectively eliminate Hamas? If so, How many men/women/children?

(If you don't consider Palestinians innocent, then summarily label them as guilty and act accordingly. We can disregard innocence altogether and its use as a descriptive term.)

By the way, if innocent Jewish men/women/children are killed by "savages" like Hamas and Israel chooses to respond by killing innocent Palestinian men/women/children are they savages too? 

Is it a rush to the 'bottom' for both sides?

Trying to be clever, you obviously ducked the question. Is Israel a terrorist outfit/organization/state? If not, why risk becoming a terrorist group or being labeled as attempting terrorist activities by dedicating itself to death of Hamas at the cost of innocent men, women, and children.

Good point, CB. Now that I think about it, there's a point where the number of the enemy's children would become so great that the moral high ground would be to just give up and let them kill all your children, your mothers, fathers, son's, daughters, aunts, uncles and cousins instead. Thanks for helping me see the light. 

Also, you don't appear to understand  the definition of "indiscriminate". Because if you do understand the definition, you are intentionally attempting to deceive. 

Okay, so now the 'word-play' crap begins. I suggest you this as a visual aid and now maybe the question can be suitable for you:

What God do you know of well, would approve of killing of men/women/children/disabled/old alike all because a true villainous group/organization did something similar to Israel?

For the record, I have no vested interest in Israel or Palestine-Palestine or Israel beyond their humanity. I am simply trying to get Us, in here, to talk about this openly, fairly, and consistently. 

If Israel kills Palestinian men, women, children, disabled, and infirm it will be a type of genocide (as they accused Hamas of doing when it attacked them). Better to consider what President George W. Bush did when 9/1l occurred. He entered Iraq and Afghanistan to replace its leadership and not to take 'blood-lust' revenge on the Iraq and Afghanistan peoples. In case it is forgotten. . . it was a slow, tedious, disciplined, and patience exercise which totaled years. But the punishment for 9/11 was eventually exacted, promises 'kept,' and millions of lives otherwise up for loss exist today in both countries.

Hard to imagine how anyone can do anything other than condemn Hamas.   There is no excuse —none— for the savagery that just took place.   

The Palestinian people cannot achieve anything close to their goals if they continue to allow groups like Hamas to function.  They might, however, end up destroying themselves.   Although they will not be able to displace (or kill) Israel no matter what they do, they could potentially get a better situation attempting to coexist.   Not that I see that happening in our lifetimes.

So many questions...

The question is this: What do you consider Palestinians to be: Innocent or Guilty?

Already answered. 

The question: Are you okay with killing innocent men/women/children in order to effectively eliminate Hamas? If so, How many men/women/children?

See above, now see this one demands a counter question. Are you okay with Hamas killing innocent men/women/children in order to effectively eliminate Israel?

I do not support what Hamas did. That should be obvious from the breadth of discussion. Hamas is guilty as charged according to present facts.

I have suggested that Hamas take to the 'front' and leave the Palestinian people out of it unless they take to the front with them alone. Since Hamas so far have not offered to do so and may not; it does not do Israel any favors to lower its nation to the level of Hamas by acting out of 'blood-lust' because the surrounding world will have pictures/graphics/images of it.  Go get Hamas and pass judgement on the organization. But not against innocent people. Why?

Backlash. It can be brutal. 

Also, kill innocent people and the outcry from the world could be loud, brutal, resentful, and more people and nations could pick up the Pal—Hamas cause and enter into the war. A new 'front' and a political disaster.

You on the other-hand, in your comments are seeking to provide 'cover' (justification) for Israel attacking innocent people in Palestine if it serves their purposes or indulgences. 

Finally, I am not for Hamas, Palestine, or Israel in this thread. Let there be no mistake: I seek consistency, fairness, and openness in this discussion we're having and not some pass to GROUP-THINK!

What God do you know of well, would approve of killing of men/women/children/disabled/old alike all because a true villainous group/organization did something similar to Israel?

The one in Exodus 21:28-29. That's from a chapter that talks about God's view of responsibility for action/inaction.

“If a bull gores a man or woman to death, the bull is to be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten. But the owner of the bull will not be held responsible. If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull is to be stoned and its owner also is to be put to death.

Hamas is the bull. That bull has an inarguable habit of goring others as demonstrated by history.  Palestinians are the owners of the bull and elected it to represent them. The Palestinians are responsible for what is happening to them, not Israel. 

Since Hamas so far have not offered to do so and may not;

Why wouldn't Palestinians demand that they do so?..

You on the other-hand, in your comments are seeking to provide 'cover' (justification) for Israel attacking innocent people in Palestine if it serves their purposes or indulgences

So you think Israel is attacking innocent people in Gaza for its own indulgences?

Mmmmkay...

Hard to imagine how anyone can do anything other than condemn Hamas.   There is no excuse —none— for the savagery that just took place.

On the one hand, I agree. On the other, I can see how others can defend Hamas. They are the ones for whom ideology rather than truth is paramount. 

The Palestinian people cannot achieve anything close to their goals if they continue to allow groups like Hamas to function.

That's the thing, though, TiG. For most of the Palestinians, Hamas' goals are their goals. Israel is an insult to their Islamic identity. That's really all they care about when you get to the bottom line. 

Movement. Now we're getting somewhere. If I follow you logic correctly, you suggest the Palestinian people should identify Hamas among themselves, mass together,  and push Hamas out into the open where they can be dealt with by those they have offended greatly.

I agree. Thank you for opening up to the plight of the people not involved. 

So to continue seeking clarity/consistency what do you suggest, if Palestinians cannot accomplish such a 'feat' as removing the "log" in this present situation they are in now?

Should Israel come in to Palestine and mop the floor with everybody through open warfare? Or, discipline itself to seek out the heads of Hamas individually or in collective groups?

To be clear, I do not support what Hamas has done in any way. Justice must be served. . .but all parties to this must be behave responsibly. Or, risk worse befalling everybody involved.

There is a fine distinction to be understood here. There is talking about a troublesome and difficult issue and on the other hand there is bs-ing the discussion with non-substantive questions. Be honest, which are you engaging in now?  The former can move the discussion forward, the latter will simply having us spin our wheels in place!

If your not willing to answer the questions, simply say so. Condescension isn't a good look...

Israel is an insult to their Islamic identity. That's really all they care about when you get to the bottom line. 

If I may, it begs the question that any group of innocent Palestinians should be condemned along with the guilty even considering how Palestinians feel towards the land Israel is possessing/settled. What crime has innocent Palestinians committed?

 Can we assume there are Palestinian in Gaza City without blood on their hands over this incident?

NOTE: These are 'pesky' questions. But I think they are necessary and helpful!

So to continue seeking clarity/consistency what do you suggest, if Palestinians cannot accomplish such a 'feat' as removing the "log" in this present situation they are in now?

I don't suggest anything. It's too late for that. Israel has tried for years to avoid something like this to no avail. Gaza is reaping the rewards of its own actions. It's that simple. 

Should Israel come in to Palestine and mop the floor with everybody through open warfare? Or, discipline itself to seek out the heads of Hamas individually or in collective groups?

No, they shouldn't and that's not what they are doing. They are targeting Hamas, not the civilians. The civilians that die are collateral damage that is the result of their support of Israel's target. To put it in terms you might understand, though unlikely, if you hire a hitman and he gets caught, do you expect to just wash your hands of whatever he does and not have to suffer any consequences for hiring him? 

Personally, I think if it weren't for Palestinian children and the minority Palestinian that doesn't support Hamas, Israel wouldn't bother with warning Palestinians of areas they are about to strike. They wouldn't tell them to evacuate. In fact, if Israel were doing what you seem to be accusing them of doing, Israel wouldn't be considering going into Gaza at all. They'd just flatten every square inch of it without risking any of their soldiers. 

Which is it/what is happening here?

I have been told and led to accept that Israel has overwhelming power to decimate Hamas and by extension the Palestinian people. My questions are meant to stir up two concerns: 

1. The people who are talking about going in 'helter-skelter' fashion or some lesser but just as tragic-like, are the same people who SAY they condemn the loss of life of innocent people, especially the unborn. BTW, will pregnant women be safe in a bombing and series of fire-fights across the 'disputed' areas?

2. Hezbollah and other legacy or newly formed terrorists groups will likely mass together and proliferate if innocent lives are DISPROPORTIONATELY lost in Gaza!

The NEXT problem could be worse than the present one.

Greg, my role here (which I did not see being this) is to make US realize what we are after and to make sure to get that without creating a greater, expanding disaster or being less true to our own moral "code" and consistency!

They are the ones for whom ideology rather than truth is paramount. 

Is there not a line that simply cannot be crossed for ideology?    No limit on the atrocities committed based on politics/religion/emotion?

For most of the Palestinians, Hamas' goals are their goals. 

I know.   Those Palestinians are at fault and they are driven by politics, religion, and the emotions brought forth by tradition and history.   That I why I do not see any solution in the horizon (unless they wind up killing themselves by virtue of a backlash against their actions).

The NEXT problem will be if Israel finds enough credible evidence that Iran was directly involved and the consequences of that are determined. 

Is there not a line that simply cannot be crossed for ideology?    No limit on the atrocities committed based on politics/religion/emotion?

I think history answers that question well enough. 

Yep. And that should scare the crap out of everyone. 

Indeed.

Yeah, as already stated,  Indeed.....

No, they shouldn't and that's not what they are doing. They are targeting Hamas, not the civilians. The civilians that die are collateral damage that is the result of their support of Israel's target . To put it in terms you might understand, though unlikely, if you hire a hitman and he gets caught, do you expect to just wash your hands of whatever he does and not have to suffer any consequences for hiring him? 

Your scenario is interesting but conflated . Are we talking about INNOCENT men/women/children or GUILTY men/women/children? (You will be hard-pressed to find anybody below the age of accountability guilty of supporting a massacre-if only by our own standard and statutory law!) 

Do understand me. I do not wish the guilty to escape justice. But, the innocent Palestinians must be preserved. It is Christian to do so, if not simply human to do so. That is, the innocent can not be destroyed out of blood-lust vengeance. So what if it takes a reformatting and longer period of time?

It is conservatives (like you) who argue for LIFE when it suits your purposes. How about some consistency for life-sake in this instance, too!

Exclusive: Hamas attack, Israeli response fall under ICC jurisdiction, prosecutor says

By  Anthony Deutsch  and  Stephanie van den Berg

October 13, 2023

THE HAGUE, Netherlands, Oct 12 (Reuters) - The International Criminal Court has jurisdiction over potential   war crimes  carried out by Hamas militants in Israel and Israelis in the Gaza Strip , even though Israel is not a member state, the ICC's top prosecutor told Reuters on Thursday.

The occupied Palestinian territories including the Gaza Strip fall under the jurisdiction of the ICC, meaning the court has the authority to prosecute Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that rules Gaza.

"If there is evidence that Palestinians, whether they're Hamas or Al Quds Brigades or the armed wing of Hamas or any other person or any other national of any other state party, has committed crimes. Yes, we have jurisdiction wherever they're committed, including on the territory of Israel," ICC prosecutor Karim Khan said in an interview.

In his first comments since Hamas launched brutal attacks on Israel on Saturday and Israel responded with devastating bombings of the Gaza Strip, he said the images are "heartbreaking".

"It's horrendous what's going on, what we're seeing on our television screens. There has to be a legal process to determine criminal responsibility," he said.

"One doesn't need to be the prosecutor of the ICC. Any human being's heart must be chilled and frozen and heartbroken at seeing the pictures that are coming out of Israel and Palestine these last few days," he said.

A court of last resort, the ICC prosecutes individuals for alleged criminal conduct when its 123 member states are unwilling or unable to prosecute themselves.

Many of the world's major powers are not members, including China, the United States, Russia, India and Egypt. Even if the ICC were to issue warrants in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the court has no police force and would rely on member states to make arrests.

The court has had an  ongoing investigation  in the occupied Palestinian territories into possible war crimes and crimes against humanity there since 2021. But Israel doesn't recognise the court.

When the 2021 probe was announced, Khan's predecessor said the ICC was examining allegations of war crimes committed during 2014 hostilities in Gaza by Israeli forces, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups. The current violence also falls under its mandate, Khan said.

Citing his own Muslim faith, Khan appealed to all sides to follow religious teachings, calling for the protection of the innocent, as well as abiding by accepted international norms for the conduct of war.

"One cannot deliberately target civilians or civilian objects. One can't rape or kill, or mutilate or dismember," he said. "Wilful (sic) killing, hostage taking are grave breaches of the Geneva Convention and one has to comply with the law."

Asked if he had a message for the warring parties in Israel and the Palestinian territories, Khan called for reflection and calm.

" This is what the moment needs, cool leadership, humanity and the realisation that the law will judge all of us," he said.

reuters

Two things:

1. I find it interesting that the U.S. is not member to The Hague Court. Seeing that I remember us considering if not out-right asking the Hague to try some individuals for past atrocities. 

2. If Israel commits war crimes of its own in response to the atrocity committed against it. . .though Israel is not a member state of the Hague. . .it does fall under its power to prosecute and sentence accordingly. It would place a "burdensome" and impactful statement for Israelite leaders when/where they travel or do business 'inside' (within) member states for some indefinite number of years!

Your scenario is interesting but conflated . Are we talking about INNOCENT men/women/children or GUILTY men/women/children? (You will be hard-pressed to find anybody below the age of accountability guilty of supporting a massacre-if only by our own standard and statutory law!)

It isn't a scenario, it's an analogy. 

Do understand me. I do not wish the guilty to escape justice. But, the innocent Palestinians must be preserved.

Correction, they must be preserved to the reasonable extent possible, not at any cost. You are creating a god out of your ideals. 

It is Christian to do so, if not simply human to do so.

Not in the way you're suggesting, it's not. Either in the Christian or human sense. 

That is, the innocent can not be destroyed out of blood-lust vengeance.

The one thing you've said that is correct.

So what if it takes a reformatting and longer period of time?

The "so what" is that Israel has been trying "the longer period of time" method for decades and this is what it got them. Now they are going in to make sure Hamas never has the capability to do this again. Please note the wording. They don't say they are going in to slaughter everyone out of vengeance. 

Innocents are going to die. That is regrettable. My heart breaks at the thought of the moments of confusion and terror a Palestinian toddler must experience as the building collapses upon her. But to ask Israel to do other than what they are doing is to ask them to put their own children in that place. Convince me that putting my child on that alter is the Christian thing to do. Convince me that the right thing to do is to keep trying to make peace with people who fundamentally will not accept it. 

Now, if all of that sounds like a passionate response, it isn't. It is simply recognition of the reality based on the data and what I believe moral responsibility requires. 

It is conservatives (like you) who argue for LIFE when it suits your purposes. How about some consistency for life-sake in this instance, too!

I will not say what I wish to say to this. I will only say, let God judge between us. 

What God do you know of well, would approve of indiscriminate killing of men/women/children/disabled/old alike

While I'm sure most Muslims are too intelligent to take it literally, if you are looking for an answer to that question, I would highly recommend you read the Koran (all of it) then make up your own mind.

Your remarks are noted. I have nothing I wish to try to convince you of. You've made up your mind. So when/if Israel follows a prescription like the one you outline. . . the anti-semitic backlash which may ripple around the world against Jews may be renewed. . . I already know you will reason it undeserved.  Then somebody else's "heart" can break once more.

I asked Drakkonis about the God he knows well. . . do you assume he knows the God of the Koran ("Allah") because he read all of it? Back to the beginning: What God do you think Drakk is familiar? Yeah, that One. The God of the Bible. Let Drakk answer this question in his own fashion.

I already answered it. 6.1.39

I could be clever to inform you that you are a Christian and should not live out of the old testament books as active faith. It is a good history reference, nevertheless.

Palestinians are the owners of the bull and elected it to represent them.

Is every Palestinian guilty of the crime of some Palestinians in an election? Did all the Palestinians agree to Hamas? Was their no power-plays involved in 2005 election of Hamas to rule over this people? 

Did adults, youths, elderly, young, disabled, and more of the Palestinians "own" the bull that "gored" Israel? 

Is this how you lay. . .fault? Just blanket striking out against civilians because of a PERCEIVED Responsibility? 

Do you not have to respond to each question or any question, unless you choose. I, for my part, am content to let you know that your use of Exodus "demands" you find the "owners" of Hamas (those Palestinians who stand with Hamas in an election) and you punish them. . . and let the Palestinians who did not care for not stand with Hamas over the years alone with this promise of violence and death.

BTW, Jesus of the Bible, instructs you to take stock of what kind of spirit you have within you from God. It is not a spirit of revenge, violence, and definitely not murder. Get out of the Old Testament as you are not willing to kill any "bull" or its owner in today's world. I know this because  you would be required to "eat" and "do" the entirety of the OT and I am pretty sure you do not follow every command within it.

The situation sucks but IMO Israel need to do what they need to do.  I now hear reports that Israel is telling Palestinians to go south and Hamas is not letting them.

Actually Israel is telling then to go to the South half of Gaza because apparently Israel will do all (or most) of their attacking in the North. There is an Egyptian border crossing at the South end of Gaza called Rafah, and the assumption is that Egypt would let the Gazans escape Gaza there.

In fact I believed the U.S. negotiated an agreement with Egypt to open Rafah for Gazans to escape-- but initially only those Gazans who were foreigners (citizens with passports of other countries). 

Last I heard Egypt agreed-- but never opened the Rafah border.

(Food for thought: now why wouldn't Egypt want their fellow Arabs entering Egypt?)

only those Gazans who were foreigners (citizens with passports of other countries). 

Actually I may not remember all the details accurately-- the agreement may have been for Egypt to let people out of Gaza if they were American citizens).  Also probable (?) that the U.S. would provide transportation from the border back to the U.S> for U.S. citizens.

I think. . . over this week one thing is lacking consistency for me: The Media 'complex.' For nearly a week now I have watched, and not watched, coverage which take Israel's perspective over this war on a 24/7 basis. The coverage itself is so heavy that it's smothering the rest of cable news channels which I watch. 

It was only late Thursday night in which I finally saw some Palestinian perspective on the cable airways. And, it was not official or officials. It was coverage of some Palestinian school-age children suffering through this.  And then, back to the 'blanketing' coverage of Israel's perspective.

What I would like to see the media do with its infinite resources to inform is, EDUCATE the U.S. public on how this complex set of problems came to be historically and how and who all the players are that keep it ongoing. 

(There are so many far-fetched stories (rumors) spreading about which side is right or wrong, whom's land is whom, who hit who first.)

That is, this crisis of the moment, terrible as it is, for it is so, is a symptom of a larger problem between Israel and Palestine. 

The media is lacking its own balance on account of a one-sided war perspective. It serves no one to not understand how we got to this point from the long perspective of both 'players.'

NOTE: To be clear, I do understand the horrendously sick circumstances which occurred and are occurring, but as the proverb says:

"Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom; Yea, with all thy getting get understanding."  Proverbs 4:7."

Media, take this occasion to EDUCATE the public (with world-wide resources) on the history of how these two people, in a "holy" land, got to be so violent towards one another!

It is very difficult in the aftermath of a massacre to have "equal" coverage, nor should there be. 

I will agree. However, the media could take some time to educate the public about the 'background' to this crisis. It is deep! After all, they are dedicating so much time "hurry up and wait" time to waiting for the next missile launch on our cable news screens. It's not balanced. I can sympathize with Jewish families and their losses and I do, but it does disturb my sense of fair play when I don't get to see the other side's tears and "woes" out of this. 

We need to understand why these two people can't come 'together' and share the land they dwell in common!

I just don't want anybody 'feeding' me a one-sided perspective when there are DEFINITELY two. I will resist that!

Yes, I must and I will respect the massacre. That is not a problem for me. It's the news coverage: It's slanted towards our mutual friend, Israel. The media is SUPPOSED to be better than that.  As we often say: Media give it all to us; we'll decide. We can handle it. We can make informed decisions about who/what is!

I just don't want anybody 'feeding' me a one-sided perspective when there are DEFINITELY two. I will resist that

Funny how many times I have been slammed for even suggesting there are two sides to every story.

In this case most Palestinians are caught between a rock and a hard place.  Hamas, on the other hand wants the destruction of Jews and will not be satisfied until that is done.  It really sucks that Hamas can't be addressed without sucking innocent Palestinians into the fray.  Unfortunately many innocents will die so hopefully future generations can negotiate a peaceful solution when they are no longer hostages of an evil group.

Even as I write the above MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell is doing a segment of her show on the Palestinian 'side' of the present situation. That's helpful. And, constructive, in my opinion! To understanding, the larger question of WHY?!

We know exactly why Hamas did this. To attempt to eradicate all Jews, from newborns to old people.

They don't care how many Palestinians die in the process.

The interesting thing for me is this: I don't know how many Palestinians are innocent (sure many, many, are so) when they voted in Hamas in 2006. Hama gaining total control in 2007.   abc.au

There is surely strong and positive sentiments in Palestine for Hamas. I'm sure of that. That is, I don't believe Hamas is oppressing the Palestinian population. But, acting as its 'military' force. This is only my opinion, nevertheless. Admittedly, I am not well-versed in Middle East politics, but I am a 'fast study.'

I don't believe Hamas is oppressing the Palestinian population. 

Hamas not only expected a strong Israeli reaction to this massacre, they counted on it.  The more dead Palestinians, strengthens future propaganda. It why they are asking Gazans to remasin in place.

Hamas diverts international assistance from the people of Gaza to build terror tunnels and rocket factories. 

They have tortured and killed Gazans.

amnesty

Well, it seems Hamas is a sword that is double-edged! Thank you for sharing. What a difference several years can make when positions are hued out and control is given over to others to command!

We know exactly why Hamas did this. To attempt to eradicate all Jews, from newborns to old people.

Most people here should be much smarter than to think that. This eradication is impossible on its face, as is the eradication of Hamas. This can, however, be seen as a symbolic gesture, however ill-conceived, by Hamas et.al. against the extreme right-wing government vis-a-vis their encouragement and support of illegal expansion of Israeli settlement. It becomes more apparent when you consider the level of sophistication of the attacks and the actors from disparate groups. The tip of the spear may have been Hamas, but the shaft was international in scope and the hand that threw it is yet to be publicly identified. 

Could I be wrong in my assessment? Yes, I could. But I kept thinking about why on earth would Hamas launch an operation of this scope when they had to know that retaliation would fall quickly on them. This scenario makes the most sense to me. 

This is an interesting article about how Hamas feels about Israel. It's all in their charter.

forward

We know exactly why Hamas did this. To attempt to eradicate all Jews, from newborns to old people.

Most of us to. But for those who don't know why, I would recommend reading the Hamas Charter.(Unless they finally alerted it and took out a few parts..for example about how their mission is killing Jews).

They don't care how many Palestinians die in the process.

True. And beyond that! There's no doubt in my mind that Hamas actually wants the so-called "Palestinians" to die. The know that the more Palis who die, the more sympathy Hamas will get. 

(They're terrorists-- cold bloodied murders. All they care about is spreading their version of Islam)

Thank you, Perrie. I have read several articles on and portions of the charter. 

Here on NT we can pretty much sum up the views of the commenters with the statement that Hamas=Evil. Killing people is bad according to practically every code of morality. To enshrine killing people as a fundamental reason for existence is therefore evil. I think everyone in this small group of people can and does agree to that statement. 

So where does that leave us? We know that the Palestinians, who have no representation in this discussion group, do not all agree with Hamas, but we have no good measure of by what degree. Looking at this group as an example, we can see that opinions can and do vary. We can generalize and some of you have experience with the Jewish point of view.  So we can see a portion. 

I don't have time to finish this thought.  I will try to get back to it later. 

For nearly a week now I have watched, and not watched, coverage which take Israel's perspective over this war on a 24/7 basis

What channel were you watching?

I've spent a lot of time watching it , mostly on MSNBC. I thought they covered both sides equally-- some things that seemed very "pro-Israel", An equal amount that seemed very "pro-Palestinian".

Of course, I am much better informed about the situation than most people (he said in great humility

But seriously-- I've lived in Israel on several occasions. (When I was still in college I was politically very leftist, so I worked on an Israeli communal farm. (Kibbutz) Many years later on onene in another part of the country.

A friend of mine was producing and shooting film for a "Save the Elephants" charity using some of Israel's top models posing with Elephants in the Jerusalem so-- I was her assistant.

Then there were a few other trips. (On one I flew from Israel to Egypt and toured Egypt).

And while still in college I spent some time in Morrocco (which is mostly not really an Arab country)

They are better now. .. almost as if they 'heard' or read my complaint about them. Of course, cable outlets didn't hear my complaint, nevertheless.

And the clutching of pearls begins ….. so predictable….

clutching of pearls

Before..or after...the swine?

I want to expand on the Palestinian theme for a moment. This does not take away from Israel's theme which is equally important and I will get to as I educate/catch-up and go through both sides - seeking a larger understanding of what is so wrong with both of 'God's people' that they can't cope with each other in the land. 

Gaza: The world’s largest open-air prison

Roald Høvring|Published 26. Apr 2018

More than 50 years of occupation and 10 years of blockade have made the lives of 1.9 million Palestinians living inside the Gaza Strip unbearable. That is why they now are protesting and risking their lives.

Please note that this article was published on 26 April 2018 and is therefore more than five years old. 

Palestinian children and youth grow up in a society characterised by fear, lack of security, hopelessness and the lack of work, medical services, food, freedom of movement and other essentials. Today many refer to the Gaza Strip as the world’s largest open-air prison, where the prison guard is Israel.

nrc.no

I agree that Gaza is "an open air prison">

But Gaza is now an independent self-ruled country. (Yes, there is a totally independamct self-governing "Palestine"-- its  Gaza.>  (The BIG LIE is that is "occupied by Israel" Which is bullshit.

(Some would argue that they have a second independent country-- Jordan. Because the majority of Jordan's people are Palestinian, but its not a democracy-- its ruled by a non-Palestinian Hashemite King)

Where we disagree is I know that those conditions were totally caused by Hamas. Hamas is a theocratic, totalitarian group. With all the horrors they did to Israel, that is probably not as bad as what they did to their own people. 

foxnews

The origins of the Hamas-Israel conflict explained | ABC News

Yes, the Palestinians and other Arabs pissed away multiple opportunities for peace.

Let's talk in-depth for a 'minute': Why is the Jewish Nation of Israel in control of Palestinian entryways to the sea? Again, I am neither friend of foe to either Palestinians or Jews for discussion purposes, I am seeking to understand this perennial 'mess' that has spanned longer than I have been alive!

That being said, I do consider myself to be friend to both groups of people as I will engage with both peoples in the real world. Hamas - NO!

It wasn't always that way. Israel forcefully removed their own citizens, even digging up their own dead from Gaza, to give it to the Gazens, but that seems to be forgotten in the history of Gaza. Also forgotten is that they were walled off after after terror attacks started from Gaza.

Arvo CB... Israel has taken control because even when I was there in 1985 arms, explosives and other armaments were being smuggled into Gaza from other countries...

They were being hidden inside ships, fishing boats and any other floatable device...they were warned to stop doing it, but it continued so the Israelis took control...

They patrol the seas and the fisherman from Gaza can only fish in certain areas as well..go outside the designated area and they soon confronted by a patrol boat..

So nothing seems to have changed in 40 odd years..

Yes, I remember seeing these "evictions" on American television.

, I am neither friend of foe to either Palestinians or Jews for discussion purposes,

Yes-- of course. You are being totally honest and are not favoring either side. 

Let me ask you a question CB-- when your were a tourist visiting the area-- did you only stay with your topur guide and talk to people in the group-- or did you ever actaully have any significant conversation s with the locals? (Arab and Jew?)

Let's talk in-depth for a 'minute': Why is the Jewish Nation of Israel in control of Palestinian entryways to the sea?

Well, you know how those Jews are! They were too loud and obnoxious in The Hamptons (and when Jews get to the sea they tend to drink, and party-- and the food!  You could say they become real fressers!)

So they had to find another sea with an entryway they could use. They searched high and low. They tried Cape Cod, but it was too gay. Then they tried Black's Beach, but it wasn't gay enough. Finally then ended up at Gaza Beach ...it was Goldilocks!

They were being hidden inside ships, fishing boats and any other floatable device...they were warned to stop doing it, but it continued so the Israelis took control...

Somehow that seems unfair. Heck, if the "Palestinians" wanted to smuggle in explosives to kill they Jews, should they be stopped? Shouldn't they have that right ? (I think its covered by the 2nd Commandment) 

Thank you, but does this handicap the people of Palestine - as they become NOT their own masters? Can we see the harm it does when a people are "inspected" indefinitely like "produce"? It's got to be crippling at the least.

When I toured the area? I have not toured the area of the ME.  I have friends and associates here in the states. 

What means this? 

And this video is the problem with why so many people don't really understand the history of Israel and it's neighbors. It's how it's presented. 

Please explain and share more. What is errored in its ABC presentation? It's important to get this right and understanding (both in the present tense)! It's important to hear both sides' perspectives, because in its absence. . . we are going to believe something/anything. I seek to read, hear, and believe in the truth. 

Arvo Perrie... I watched it here and thought it presented a basic and factual account of the troubled lands in a restrictive tv time frame...

I doubt anyone can explain in depth to this ongoing battle as it is so complicated and intricate and everyone has their own interests in it...

Arvo Shona!

In furtherance to understanding this "troubled lands" I am posting to Perrie another interesting video. I will ask for her perspective on it when I do. Please join in (all)!

I would have to have a transcript made of it to explain why. Maybe CHAT can help.

Hello Shona,

There were errors in the explanation of the events of '48 and also the explaination of how Gaza got to where they are today, as the video I presented showed.

Dear Perrie, in furtherance of understanding, busy as I know your time here is, can you review this video for accuracy and the like:

NOTE: If time is a factor in viewing for any of us, please remember or understand that there is a "Setting" wheel/cog image/button  on all Youtube videos which can be used to speed a video up! 

Perrie, I "covet" your opinion of this video. I seek to know if it is mostly right or 'horribly' wrong or "As the case may be. . . ."

Arvo..I can't see the video here..it has been blocked by the AFP??

I am not sure but that could be the Australian Federal Police..😬😬

Is there anything really drastic in it as I am not sure why it would be blocked??

Did you click on the link: "Watch Video on Youtube?"  (Link is on the video viewing screen area itself.) It's took a little figuring out for me too!

Chat is a bust for me tonight as I am 'fried' from all my activities and the shorter days. Going to crash right this very instance after "all" I have shared this evening! Good night Perrie! Good nigh, Shona! Good night world! 

(Door closes behind CB.)

Huh where there is a will there is away...got on to YouTube the AFP is a French news service not the Federal Police..

I did not agree with removing the settlers from Gaza one of the biggest mistakes Israel ever did...

Hi Shona,

It's a YouTube, so you should be able to see it. It is from the Australian Broadcasting Co, so I would think you should be able to see it. CB wrote up the transcript, so you can read it there.

an Arab State the Jewish side accepted
this hence the state of Israel was
formed but the Arab side rejected it
sparking a one-year War War as Britain
withdrew but as the years went on Israel
took more land than had been agreed by
the UN Palestinians call this the NABA
or catastrophe as hundreds of thousands
of Palestinians
fled at the end of the war Israel

So this blurs a lot of events and misses huge parts of the story.

When the partition was made, in 1947, there was a civil war with Britain. Israel was established within the lines that the UN approved. In 1948, the Arab League (Egypt, Iraq, Transjordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Syria), told the Palestinians to leave the territories (the Nakba)

Many thousands of Arabs—women, children, and old people ... left, well before battle was joined, as a result of advice and orders from local Arab commanders and officials... . Indeed, already months before the war the Arab states and the AHC had endorsed the removal of dependents from active and potential combat zones. ...

Which then started the war of 1948 with Israel and the Arab League. There is some dispute as the cause of the displacement of the Palestinian population, but there is no dispute over that the Arab League wanted Israel destroyed. At the end of the war, there was no additional lands taken, as was said. It was not until the 1967 war that more land was taken, so that is just false that Israel took land not given in 1947.

fled at the end of the war Israel
controlled all the land in blue except
for Gaza here which Egypt controlled the
West Bank which was controlled by Jordan
and the Golden Heights controlled by Syria.

Which is how things stood after '48. Now remember, that was part of the Palestinian partition so why didn't the Palestinians go back to those lands? Why did those countries hold onto those lands?

This is such a huge topic that it is hard to do it all, but this is just an example of the over oversimplification of what was said.

Thank you for sharing. It helps. I really does. It will take some time to put everything into its proper perspective for us 'lay-people' and outsiders.

In furtherance of discussion, the civilians (many thousands of them) are VOTING with their feet to leave. Any MILITARY POWER which blocks their successful path/S to freedom and life may be charged with a war crime and condemnation from the international community. Harming, maiming, injuring, or killing civilians may come with terrible consequences for those who undertake to do so without a damn good reason!

Harming, maiming, injuring, or killing civilians may come with terrible consequences for those who undertake to do so without a damn good reason!

Is that true for Hamas as well?

Is Israel lowering its standards to match Hamas? You be the judge and answer the question. If/when it starts looking, acting, and walking like a duck Israel just might be a . . . .  You get the visual?

Any MILITARY POWER which blocks their successful path/S to freedom and life may be charged with a war crime and condemnation from the international community.

Do you realize that Hamas is trying to stop Gazans from fleeing south?

"Any" encompasses Hamas too, eh?

Of course Hamas represents their government as well, just looking out for the peoples interests.

And what an interest it is, yes? What a mess!

I don't think Hamas  wears distinctive military uniforms 

No so they blend in with the civil population...much to their detriment...

It makes it easy to have human shields.

I don't think Hamas  wears distinctive military uniforms 

I don't remeber the details, but I believe it is a violation of the Geneva Convention for combatabts (soldiers) not to wear identifying uniforns..?

John Russell-- a Zionist?

(Who knew?!!)