Takeaways from the landmark sedition indictment against the Oath Keepers - CNNPolitics
By: Marshall Cohen (CNN)
This article supplements the article I seeded earlier today: https://thenewstalkers.com/trout-giggles/group_discuss/15043/oath-keepers-leader-and-10-others-charged-with-seditious-conspiracy-cnnpolitics#cm1721922
Trolling, taunting, and off topic comments may be removed at the discretion of group mods. NT members that vote up their own comments or continue to disrupt the conversation risk having all of their comments deleted. Please remember to quote the person(s) to whom you are replying to preserve continuity of this seed.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
The Justice Department on Thursday announced the first sedition charges related to the January 6 insurrection, a watershed moment in the year-long investigation.
The case resolves around the Oath Keepers, a far-right extremist group, and its leader Stewart Rhodes. Many of the defendants were already facing charges for storming the US Capitol building and deny wrongdoing. But the new indictment raises the stakes significantly and made public new details about their alleged plans for violence.
Attorney General Merrick Garland had balked at the earlier efforts to bring the seditious conspiracy charge. But in the months since, people briefed on the matter say FBI investigators and DC federal prosecutors have spent much time building the case, at least in part with the help of cooperators and the benefit of internal communications among the Oath Keepers.
Here are the key takeaways:
DOJ went there on sedition
Federal prosecutors have been slammed -- by legal experts, Democratic lawmakers, Donald Trump critics, and media pundits -- for going easy on the rioters. That criticism has now been answered in a big way with the charges of "seditious conspiracy."
Garland said in a major speech last week that prosecutors would go after the January 6 perpetrators "at any level... whether they were present that day or were otherwise criminally responsible for the assault on our democracy." Thursday's indictment puts some meat on the bones.
Sedition is difficult to prove in court, and an indictment is only the very beginning of a legal case. There are many hoops that prosecutors will need to jump through before they win convictions. But this is a critical first step.
It destroys, once and for all, the talking point from those downplaying the events of January 6 that the attack on the Capitol wasn't an insurrection because nobody has been charged with sedition.
It took a while to reach this point in the investigation. Last March, it seemed like former US Attorney Michael Sherwin, who initially led the investigation, got out ahead of his skis when he said there should be sedition cases. Months passed without anything materializing to back up his assertions. With the new indictment, Sherwin has been vindicated.
Extent of preparation for January 6
One of the most debated questions about January 6 has been over how much planning there was to invade the Capitol.
Thousands of Trump supporters breached Capitol grounds, and a couple thousand got inside the building. But was there a plan? And who knew about the plan?
It's clear from court filings that for many of the rioters, there was no organized plan. But that's not the full story. The sedition case against the Oath Keepers highlights that there were hardened groups of alleged criminals within the mob that essentially planned for war.
It could have been worse
The indictment provided yet another reminder that January 6 could have been so much worse.
Shortly after getting inside the Capitol, one group of Oath Keepers tried to make a coordinated move on the Senate chamber, seemingly as if they were executing a mission. According to the indictment, they "tried to push their way through" a line of police, but the officers "forcibly repelled their advance." (Other rioters eventually breached the Senate floor and gallery.)
Prosecutors added more details of how the Oath Keepers allegedly stockpiled weapons at a nearby hotel in Virginia, just in case they needed to deploy a "quick reaction force" into DC.
The charging documents say one defendant, Joshua James, got a message from a friend saying, "I have friends not far from DC with a lot of weapons and ammo if you get into trouble." James replied, "that might be helpful, but we have a s***load of QRF on standby with an arsenal."
Rhodes also amassed weapons and other gear on his way to Washington, DC, before January 6, prosecutors said. He allegedly bought a rifle, a magazine, and other firearms equipment, including sights, mounts, triggers, slings, and an optic plate. Rhodes was on the Capitol grounds on January 6 but hasn't been accused of entering the building, though prosecutors have said he "directed" his supporters to do so.
The plot was bigger than Jan 6
Up to this point, federal prosecutors had been accusing conspiracy defendants of aiming to block Congress' vote to certify the election.
But Thursday's case ups the ante, widening the conspiracy past January 6. The indictment says the Oath Keepers aimed for more than disruption of Congress. This group, prosecutors say, wanted to stop the transfer of presidential power from Trump to Joe Biden.
After the insurrection, they gathered to celebrate, then continued talking.
"We aren't quitting!! We are reloading!!," one of the defendants wrote in a Signal chat.
In the week after the riot, Rhodes allegedly spent more than $17,500 on weapons, equipment, and ammunition. One member, according to the filings, said Rhodes should stay "below the radar," while another brought what he called "all available weapons" to Rhodes' home in Texas.
Around Inauguration Day, January 20, Rhodes allegedly told associates to organize local militias to oppose the Biden administration. Another member allegedly said, "After this... if nothing happens...its war...Civil War 2.0."
"Rhodes and certain co-conspirators ... planned to stop the lawful transfer of presidential power by January 20, 2021, which included multiple ways to deploy force," the indictment says.
Hunting for the bigger fish
The Justice Department spent all of 2021 rounding up nearly two dozen alleged members of the Oath Keepers. They secured the cooperation of a few people charged in the original Oath Keepers conspiracy case -- the one without the sedition charges -- which was a significant breakthrough.
Now we know that prosecutors were building a bigger case, and moving up the chain, to the leader of the extremist organization. Rhodes has previously denied any wrongdoing regarding January 6. B
The big question is: Is this the end of the road? Could Rhodes have information that implicates anyone else higher up?
It has been widely reported that his organization was providing allies for Trump surrogates like Roger Stone and Ali Alexander. A major criminal case obviously ramps up the pressure on people like Rhodes to cut a deal with and become a government witness, if they have a story to tell.
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The conspiracy is real. These people are definitely bad actors.
just as stupid as they are pathetic.
And dangerous.
Yes the conspiracy is real. But the real Sedition began at Helsinki or maybe even the Oval Office when 'the man who now dwells in Mar-a-Lago' told the Russians, "I got rid of that nutbag Comey."
As far as Rhodes, he is the same category as a guard at Nazi death camps. The ones who made the death camps possible are the ones who are the conspiracy of sedition.
I would say that it began before Helsinki, although Helsinki is part of it.
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Name one damn thing Trump did for Russia, just one? I have listed several actions the Trump administration took against Putin- with backup for each. If anyone one the left is really interested I am sure they can dig up one of my older posts. I only did the list 4 or 5 times. Want to find Putin's real puppet look no further than the human fuck up machine the Democrats put in the White House.
Why the hell did Biden drop sanctions on the Nordic Stream II pipeline w/o getting anything in return from Putin? It would have been a great point of leverage on Ukraine with Russia, but Biden took it off the table w/o even being asked. Now Russia has free rein to demand concessions from NATO and the US that will damage the safety of for Soviet border states.
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Pulled out of Syria.
Yeah, no. We are still in Syria. Care to try again?
abandoned our allies the kurds...
The abandonment of the Kurds was a real low point and a Trumpian stain on America.
Took money from the military to build his wall...money that was sorely needed for construction projects
an inconvenient truth for america's new 2nd class citizens...
Not quite as low as leaving $500,000 in military equipment for the Taliban or abandoning hundreds of US Citizens in Afghanistan.
but, but, but...
Was the 'hardware' and tech disabled and smashed, Jeremy? I think I read it so. What say you?
As for time and treasure. . . some conservatives might like to make a lot of NOISE about victory being the 'thing,' or a triumphant departures with smiles, banners streaming, flags waving, and confetti. . . but the fact remains. Managing a negligent territory ("empire building") has 'broken the backs' of many nations engaging in expansionism or 'over-aiding.'
It is better the U.S. left now, while this nation still has a 'shirt on its back' and shoes will soles! Proof is in the offing: Afghanistan remains not ready to be a democracy-we were burning our money while treading. . . .
Oh what's wrong. I not follow the narrative and introduce facts?
What was left after we had to go back was. Initially? No. Many of the weapon systems were used against our service members when they went back to attempt to get out the abandoned US Citizens.
I'm not arguing about why we left. That has been discussed for a long time. It's HOW we left. A total and utter clusterfuck under the direction of Biden and his incompetent administration.
The reality is, our mission in Afghanistan was successful. Despite what the talking heads tell you, we weren't there to "rebuild a nation". That's not the job of the military. That's a concept brought on by the feckless politicians. Our mission was to prevent another terrorist attack on US Soil. We did just that.
Yes, the abandonment of the Kurds was far, far lower than leaving some equipment in Afghanistan.
To be clear, did the Trump Administration do something you are aware of (but not mentioning); like cut a contractual deal with the Taliban (that excluded the Afghan (coalition) government from its proceedings? Perhaps, those 'talking heads' you listen to mentioned something about a deal with the Taliban for the U.S. to leave setup by the Trump Administration. Going from memory here: Can you help me out with that, Jeremy?
What time period are you referring to, Jeremy? Are you saying the Taliban or ISIS (dared) attacked after the final troop withdrawal operation at the deadline agreed with the Taliban? Please be clear so I can check it out.
Pulled out of Clifford and McDougal too.
Okay I am trying to. . . to. . hold it toget—okay..I can do this. Wait. . .
Aha-- I see that once again you are attempting to Play The Whattaboudism Card!
Heh.
'Abandoning'?
That's some hyperbole right there Jeremy.
that's reality. He ABANDONED hundreds of US Citizens in Afghanistan. That is why we had to go back in August. It sure as hell wasn't for the weapon systems and equipment Biden gave the Taliban.
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
H/T Inigo Montoya
I know exactly what it means and that's exactly what Biden did.
Um Jeremy, they weren't ABANDONED, as you admit, 'we' [Biden] went back for them.
Demanding to have it both ways is juvenile.
We wouldn't have to go back if they weren't abandoned in the first fucking place. We also wouldn't have 13 dead servicemembers due to that incompetence.
Going back to get them means they were NOT abandoned Jeremy.
It would be great if you and yours would cite an English dictionary so that we can all agree on the meaning of a word.
We could have had more. Unless you have an accurate crystal ball, we can't know.
Emphatically. It is fault-finding,' for fault sake. If some conservatives 'win' the House this November can the 'neverending story' of Afghanistan departure under Biden hearing be far off?!
Suddenly, all the republicans will 'remember' where their questions are! Of course, all any of us will be is a little lighter in the pocket financially and more senior at the end of it.
I thought they already proved they were coordinating.
There is a lot of evidence.
And that will be have to be presented in court as proof, correct?
What evidence?
I guess you're gonna have to ask Adam Schiff for it. After all he's seen all the evidence, hasn't he? I do remember him telling us he had seen it all and that it was damning...
Yes, the evidence will be presented at the trial.
Read the seeded article.
Where did Adam Schiff discuss having seen evidence of co-ordination among the so-called Oath Keepers?
the evidence being blocked by dozens of pending court cases brought by fascists in an attempt to stall the judicial consequences past the next election they erroneously think they will win.
Could you provide that evidence? If there is, it would be real news to the world.
What trial?
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Ever watch TV news?
WTF? Did you read the article? The DOJ will present all of the evidence at the trial.
What planet are you on? Are you not aware enough to understand that there is going to be a trial based on the indictment?
OK OK I made a mistake. I thought you were talking about something else.
My apologies
OK
Adam Schiff?
What gets me is these people planned this out and actually tried to pull it off.
And we still have some conservatives that act like they were tourists.
Or like the seditionists are heroes.
Sad and unamerican.
They might be hero's to the nut cases but to Americans, they are nothing more than traitors.
Unamerican and traitors is an apt description.
While the tourists label being used by some is too much, you should include that this group was actually a small part of the overall riot. The people who broke into the Capital Building was a subset of the people who gathered on the Capital grounds, and that group was a subset of the people who attended the rally. I think for a lot of people the implication is that everybody who was at the rally is guilty of these charges and that's no more true than the assumption from others that every BLM riot over last year was held by nothing but Antifa.. when the truth is the majority of those who attended the protests did so honestly and it was a small subset of that group that caused the problems such as setting fires and breaking windows and destroying property. We should be more careful with our wording as it's way too easy to misunderstand the typed word and read more into it than what was initially meant.
As far as this group of Oath Keepers, the courts will decide where it goes from here. A charge of sedation is going to be a hard case so the prosecution will have their work cut out for them to get a conviction. Only question I have is will we see the decision by 23?
“Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits.” (1 Corinthians 15:33)
Guilt by association. If you get a ride home from some friends and they stop by a liquor store and rob it on the way, even if you don't participate you can be considered an accessory to the crime. The fact is even if half the crowd didn't participate in the attack, they certainly didn't try to protect the capital police from the other half of the violent crowd.
I've seen you quote how only a fraction of people at BLM protests were looters & arsonists (I have too), so no one should hold the whole accountable. The same goes here. For the people there for a protest - those that did not clash with Capitol Police or enter the Capitol Building and not being charged - should not be condemned as criminals in our posts. There are plenty of other things to judge them on.
Protest of what ? There was NO legitimate protest on Jan 6.
It would be like someone organizing a protest over which team won the Superbowl.
In the minds of the people who were there for the rally and protest, they had a legitimate reason. You don't get to tell other people what to think. I'm sure we could find people out there who would call all the BLM protests last summer as not having a legitimate reason either, would you agree with them or would you think the BLM protesters felt they had a legitimate reason?
Don't be obtuse, John. People are free to peacefully protest anything they wish. Just because you and I don't agree with their positions on anything doesn't make it less legitimate.
Well, John there is a "tradition" of destruction by fans after sporting events.
Because something is legal does not mean it is justified or "legitimate".
Jan 6 participants, led by Trump, tried to justify the existence of this rally of course, but they have ho case.
false equivalency. name one BLM protest that obstructed a joint session of congress performance of a constitutionally mandated peaceful transfer of power by certification of a new POTUS.
Ok, I'll ask you - protest of what? Because someone felt like they had a legitimate reason does not mean they had a legitimate reason. When Jan 6 happened, Trump had already lost 60 some court cases about the election, every single state had certified their elections, and a number of them had done hand recounts. Trump had already asked the Sec of State of Georgia to "find" 11,000 votes (probably a crime). The alleged "illegality" of the election had entirely been created in the mind of Trump and Sydney Powell and Rudy Giuliani. They are the ones that conspired against the American people.
Jan 6 was not a "legitimate" protest. It is ridiculous to say it was.
Nope, you're wrong. The topic of conversation was the legitimacy of the protest. In the minds of the people who let the protest on Jan 6th, they felt the reason behind was legitimate. Now the individuals (subset of the protest if you will) who broke into the Capital used the protest as a vehicle for their actions. Same as the rioters from the BLM protests who used the protests as their vehicle to damage and destroy property.
Words matter, John. You can't make up your own definitions. Those that were there to peacefully protest did "legitimately" do so. Those that clashed with LEOs and entered the Capital Building did not. THAT is the distinction. IF you don't want liberals painted in broad brush strokes, please don't do it to conservatives.
Go back and re-read 4.2.5. Just because you don't agree with their reasoning doesn't make their protest any less legitimate.
according to Merriams , there are 5 definitions for legitimate.
I have already agreed that the rally was legal (at first). I am talking about another form of legitimacy, as in justified by the facts.
see below
What "legitimate" reason was that? They violently protested an actual legitimate election. Insurrection against a duly elected government is only "legitimate" if the Insurrectionists win.
That's the end of it. There is nothing more to say about it. Everything else is irrelevant, as it pertains to those peacefully protesting.
I don't care if they were protesting avocado toast points... It just doesn't matter why.
A bit of sanity in your comment!
What we are trying to do is draw the distinction between those who were and were not engaging in criminal activity. As, I and others, were drawing a similar distinction on BLM protests.
I'm not going to argue with you anymore about it. We disagree on the meanings of the word legitimate.
But the problem in that whole thing falls as to what they appear to support and what they don't. It appears they supported the BLM Protests and will make that distinction. On the other hand it appears the do not support the Jan 6 Protest therefore they will not allow anybody to make that exact same distinction.
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If one is part of the insurrectionist mob, then one is engaged in criminal activity.
Please bare that in mind when I point it out elsewhere.
Looks like you both agree on the MEANING of legitimate. evilgenius provided the ADJECTIVE meaning and you provided the VERB meaning.
Part of the problem is that you emphasized sections of the verb meaning. You didn't emphasize ALL of the meaning. You did miss 1st piece of it:
I will.
Nope. Number 4 is not the verb meaning. Number 4 does not refer to a meaning related to "legal". fair or reasonable - see that? The Jan 6 "protest" was neither fair nor reasonable.
I'm not disagreeing that point. Not even a little bit. I'm just saying that all the people in attendance WERE NOT part of an insurrectionist mob.
Or are you trying to say...
All those who protested in Minneapolis last year after George Floyd was murdered are criminals, because a couple people started looting and burning?
DP, I agree with both points of view. Let people come forward and where possible clear his or her name and association, accordingly. Or, let him or her clear their name once asked. It could certainly be true that many lives were spared by actions, non-actions, and yes even spoken words (a calming effect) by some caught off-guard by the disastrous demonstrations. Clearly there were people there intend on wickedness and overthrow, but many as well to just small "p" protest, in my opinion. Case in point: There were people outside the capitol building asking as coordinators, and in Ashli Babbitt's case she was definitely part of a larger team effort.
Think of it in this small way: Outer ring - demonstrators, inner ring - assaulted the building and its members, center ring - conspirators bent on overthrow of governmental control. 3 rings.
Personal note: How nice of you to quote Corinthians unforced. It was a highlight moment for me.
Friend JohnRussell, if I can call you friend, protest is constitutional. Wreakage can be nuanced based on circumstances. And yes, what happened January 6, 2021 at the capitol in D.C. was wrong for all the wrong reasons. It went well beyond any legitimacy and righteous cause.
Protest is constitutional (legitimate). It is a means of letting "the people" vent (pressure valve). What one destroys in any protest is weighed and judged by degrees. For example, if one is defacing a building it can be nuanced, but if one is defacing a police officer charges are likely forthcoming as well they should.
Your argument is well articulated, evilgenius. You have on the right side of this, particularly as DoJ facts and procedures are laying out its case. (The case that is being praised for its utility.)
Are they part of the mob or not? When $#it goes down, one had better run for the hills if they do not want to be part of it.
Peaceful protest is constitutional and usually not a problem. But when things turn violent or destructive, then it crosses a line and is criminal.
Yes and no. *Remember "nuance"? And not all defacements are criminal, even so it may look to onlookers. Damages can be superficial and determined so ("No big deal") Another 'quickie" example: In the L.A. area riot, where Reginal Denny was attacked see the video.
Uncut L.A. Riot Footage - Reginald Denny Beating / Looting
NOTE: To view this video you must click on the phrase, "Watch on Youtube" because of the age restriction warning.
This was a "dark day" and it was criminal. This activity was worst by magnitude.
And Texan, please stop with this pretense (all) crime is crime without any deferences or differentiations. It's why employ legal terms like misdemeanor and felony. And of course, why we need lawyers.
Let us be big about this.
I know that. Funny you keying in on that (tid-bit), while missing the point (gist) of the subject matter and this thread. Be big about this!!!
... and defending those participating in sedition.
Emphatically. Note my video @4.2.33. Those individuals prosecuted were Mr. Reginald Denny's attackers (the worst of the lot), not those merely onsite. That is, you prosecute those who are prosecutable and hopefully convictable.
Did you miss the part where I stated: Using the link you provided for the Merriam-Webster site, the definition evilgenius provided is listed as number 4 under the adjective definition. Which seems to also be the piece you are ignoring. Try reading the full comment before shooting your mouth off.
And that would be your opinion. An opinion not shared by everybody.
Best to get offsite once on-site shenanigans begins.
This is not to Gordy,
All the meta has been cleaned up. Any further meta/ derailments will be ticketed.
yep, they have no proof of sedition in any way.. at least none that will pass legal muster yet...
All they have commented on is speech, and speech by itself under the constitution cannot by rule be seditious.. Sedition REQURIES an overt act to establish intent... Seditious conspiracy requires an overt act by two people working in concert...
In the last 60 or so years only a few sedition or seditious conspiracy indictments have been brought, ALL of them were dismissed while being heartily laughed at...
That includes those wonderful lunatics known as "The Order"
This whole mess to designed to get people OFF Garlands back and hence Biden's back... Political salve to the malcontents..
So you think it was fair and/or reasonable. Good . It makes it makes it more clear what we are dealing with here.
Invading the Capitol constitutes an overt act.
Read the article.
If you like the so-called "Oath Keepers" you will love "The Order".
No, it's designed to get violent reactionary extremists off the American people's backs.
So you are defending those persons charged with sedition. Tell me is it because of their backgrounds or in defense of guns? Please be clear, I don't want my liberal 'tint' to blur anything you really mean to convey.
If they were unable to get "The Order" (a group that actually killed people) with Seditious Conspiracy, what make you think they are going to get Oathkeepers who haven't killed anyone? They have tried many many times over the last 6 decades to get groups on Seditious Conspiracy with all such charges being dismissed for cause... Give us a link to otherwise and I'll read it....
Not defending anything, trying to put these charges into a realistic light... Sedition alone is the MOST difficult charge to prove, harder than perjury... Then to add Conspiracy on top of it?
In mountain climbing terms that is like climbing & summiting Mt McKinley, K-2 and Anna Purna all on one day...
First, I've often pointed out how the vast majority of protests were not violent so those 93% of protests that didn't turn violent, obviously the participants should not be lumped in with the violent ones at other protests. And yes, I've said numerous times how those who took part in the violence and vandalism should be arrested and held accountable regardless of what side of the political aisle they're on.
However, in the case of the capital attack, anyone who entered the capital building is guilty of at least illegal trespassing. Those caught on film vandalizing or beating officers should of course be held accountable for their individual actions. Anyone who did not enter the capital but was there watching it happen and did nothing to help the capital police should be ashamed of themselves but no, they are not criminally liable, but they certainly do not choose their friends well which was what I primarily meant, if they frequent the same circles as the other right wing conservative extremists it wouldn't be unusual for them to be considered a part of that extremism.
Yep, that's a very difficult conviction to get. In the entire history of the US, only 12 people have ever been convicted of sedition.
Will they be able to get a conviction here? We may not know the final answer until 23 or even 24.. Won't stop all the speculation and hyper-ventilating however.
You are still blaming the whole group for the actions of part. EG and I were quite clear from the beginning that we were differentiating between those who attended the rally vs those who marched on the capital to protest vs those who engaged in criminal acts at / in the Capital. Just because they were standing on the Capital grounds to protest, did they know everybody else in the crowd? As for those who stood watching it happen, isn't that kind of like why people normally slow down when driving by an accident so that maybe they can see something? The shock of the actions can cause a lot of people to freeze up.
See @4.2.74 and now I ask again, what/who are you defending here?
Why we got to be "hyperventilating" or "hand-wringing" or "sweating"? We are just following and discussing the news—together like you do. Apparently, we LIKE news and challenging discussion as much.
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My job (Army Reserve Center) was not that far from the flash point. We had a vault full of M16's (no rounds) and were afraid we might get overrun so we had to lock our gate and post roving guards (armed). Even my colonel was given permission to carry a sidearm.
Please stop. That reads as needy and desperate. We are not elected or appointed officials tasked with coming up with legal charges that will withstand wrangling or scrutiny. So, excuse us, if we won't concern ourselves with getting it near perfect every time here.
"Seditious conspiracy." Eureka!
How is it needy and desperate? I pointed out something rather obvious, and you want to insult me.
Not a good look.
I watched it on television. It was a great sadness for me. I was horrifically ashamed of those boys and men.
It was one of those days when you feel like the next time you go out to work and about town you might be a target of someone's revenge. I was both in awe and relieved that nothing came of it pervasively across the country.
Please. Reread my comment. It states my meaning rather nicely. BTW, the charges are official. We are not expected to make official charges, nor can we.
And exactly where did I say that? I AM saying it was LEGITMATE. Even with the definition YOU provided. Notice how you are ignoring that.
In 1981, Oscar López Rivera , a Puerto Rican nationalist and Vietnam War veteran, was convicted and sentenced to 70 years in prison for seditious conspiracy (among other offenses) for his involvement in FALN - a Puerto Rican independence group that carried out over 130 bombings in the United States. Rivera was tried for being a recruiter and bomb-making trainer.
You are aware that he was offered pardons, he was offered to have his convictions vacated? (cause there was no real evidence) He is still (or remained) convicted cause he chooses to be... But yeah he was convicted so in 60 years you have one conviction that should be overturned...
Have any more? cause one faulty conviction serves more to prove what I'm saying more than anything else... Or, is it just an "I Gotcha" moment you think you've found?
Anyone can search wiki, you think I didn't before I made my statement, well I did and several other actual legal databases which the common public doesn't have access to, westlaw being the most famous...
So I ask, you have anymore? Cause that case isn't dispositive of the question... (no where near of precedential value either)
Please answer me a question....
HOW does citing the statute change the question? or should cause a different response? The statute is irrelevant to the position of how difficult it is to gain a conviction... for that you look up relevant case law... which I already have...
Doesn't change my answer at 4.2.70..
Try again...
Yes, "he was offered pardons".
Yes, "he is still convicted ".
Then you conclude: " one faulty conviction serves more to prove what I'm saying more than anything else."
Really? You said (4.2.65):
In the last 60 or so years only a few sedition or seditious conspiracy indictments have been brought, ALL of them were dismissed while being heartily laughed at...
I posted a simple cut&pastie from Wikipedia to document a seditious conspiracy conviction:
In 1981, Oscar López Rivera , a Puerto Rican nationalist and Vietnam War veteran, was convicted and sentenced to 70 years in prison for seditious conspiracy (among other offenses) for his involvement in FALN - a Puerto Rican independence group that carried out over 130 bombings in the United States. Rivera was tried for being a recruiter and bomb-making trainer.
You can spin your fucking ass off, butt that proves your statement is BULLSHIT!
Absolutists are usually wrong...
Still show us all the other convictions, I mean if I'm really really as wrong as you claim, there should be TONS AND TONS of convictions to show how wrong I am...
A single man went to prison for a crime he didn't commit, and that means it isn't hard to prove Seditious Conspiracy to anyone....
Good prove it...
I do not have "relevant case law" before me. I am pointing out a newsy portion of the charging document. Now, you will have to ask yourself if any descriptor in the statue is relevant to what this Oath Keeper caused or took place to occur. Caution: You do not have the 'case-file' documents and data that DOJ prosecutors possess. Picking other past sedition cases as indicative of this January 6, 2021 is presumption. Moreover, cases stand or fall on their own merit/s—especially unique cases.
Therefore, one has to ask (and so I will again): What/who are you defending here?
It's next to impossible to have a conversation on a subject which is how difficult it is to get a conviction on these charges, when one doesn't understand the system the charges originate from... the subject IS how difficult it is... nothing else...
At this point if you wish to keep asking a pointless question to the subject at hand there is no point to continue towards... Not defending anything but that is what you seem to want to force the discussion into...
Sorry find someone else...
You can spin until you puke and your statement is still WRONG!
You said:
that means it isn't hard to prove Seditious Conspiracy to anyone....
I never said that, you did.
You said (4.2.65):
In the last 60 or so years only a few sedition or seditious conspiracy indictments have been brought, ALL of them were dismissed while being heartily laughed at...
It doesn't require "TONS AND TONS of convictions to show how wrong" you are.
You also said:
"Absolutists are usually wrong..."
Like when YOU said:
"ALL of them were dismissed while being heartily laughed at..."
Thanx for playing the game. You have been owned.
Please don't post that stupid shit again.
IMPASSE
Yeah, another FAILURE to support a specific statement. No worries. I'm getting used to it. It's sooooooooo Trumpian. It well may be the case that this specific case may fail in court, but what is a proper alternative--trash the capitol building in D.C. the center of western democracy FOR ALL THE WORLD TO SEE any damn time a bunch of some conservatives get EMOTIONAL over 'troubled,' pampered, enabled, and spend all his time thinking up new hurdles to this democratic model, Donald J. Trump.
I ask you where you STAND because it matters. If you feel SQUEEZED or EXPOSED perhaps reserve comment or further elaboration. Still, the ASK is valid! Why? Because making blanket 'fit square in circle hole' statements may sound right, but we are talking about real people here and above all we, people matter, at the end of it all! Moreover, everybody knows this-when it comes to something 'everybody' wants in policy-making.
America! Defend the truth in 2022!
(Damn it!)
Thank you for pointing out the obvious.
The new estimate by the FBI is that 2000+ people perpetrated prosecutable crimes at the Capitol on Jan. 6th. It could be as many as 2500. That's a pretty big 'subset of the people who gathered on the Capital grounds'. Technically, every person that entered the Capitol grounds committed a crime. The overwhelming majority of them will get away with it.
Though, a crime is a crime I 'valiantly' tried to get through to one of our 'regulars,' nuance and degree are features in theory and in practice for courts of law.
Happy to be of service
I'm not sure why a taunt was necessary.
While I didn't see your post prior to deletion, it seems it was taunting, as it was flagged and deleted as such.
As I said, your comment was deemed taunting. That's what I have to go by. And given your history, I'm inclined to accept that assessment at face value.
Neither do you. But that's Irrelevant really. It's the end result that matters.
And that's just an assumption. But if you feel your comment was wrongfully deleted, then you can ask Perrie or one of the other mods to review it.
My assumptions are based on your past and current posts, which continue to be deleted for various reasons. I'd say my assumptions are rather safe.
That's your interpretation. But given your history, I'd say it's not someone else with the issues.
See previous statement.
If you're unwilling to stand up for your own posts, then that indicates others assessment of your questionable comments is accurate.
You make a case for why you should be banned
With each post, you only continue to prove me correct. Clearly, I'm not the only one who sees it too.
NO!
Texan1211 should NOT be banned.
I enjoy feeding the trolls in Heated Discussions.
It can be mildly entertaining.
Your comment is actually a subset of inaccurate comment, that I can tell you.
They are a tiny, tiny dichotomy.
One the one hand I believe that whether you took the oath as an enlisted person or an officer, or both,
that the oath you swore on the Bible ( Old or new ) or the Koran doesn't disappear into thin air when you quit,
resign or retire.
Just my opinion.
These people can't let the military go, even though most of them have been reduced to caricatures of themselves,
they meet and wear a hodge podge of 5 decades of USA military uniforms and gadgets while declaring themselves publicly
not to be militia, but privately practicing with live ammo for a political Armageddon.
Not the liberal vets, mind you, just the hardened conservatives.
I'm sure they mean well and believe their own nonsense
especially if egged on by the ( at the time ) sitting POTUS
What could go wrong? /s
Rhodes is just the latest version of Tarleton.
There will always be a well meaning Tarleton with misplaced loyalties willing to die for his convictions.
That's just the way life is.
Tarleton? Who is, please.
if its the one im thinking of , its the actual officer that british character in the patriot was based on , the cavalry officer .
even i had to look him up .
i was thats the dude from the patriot with mel gibson ...., he didnt end up like in the movie though .
All of Tarleton's calvary & infantry were American Torys who believed in their cause.
As Mark indicated, he did not die at Cowpens, but escaped to England with Cornwalis and was elected to Parliament
despite his lack of popularity. He was missing fingers from the Battle at Guilliford Courthouse and used it as leverage
to sell books of his exploits and criticisms of Cornwallis.
Interesting.
When it talked about the American guerrilla warfare, it reminded me of Red Dawn.
oath keepers, proud boys, 3pers, teabags, magatards... pffft, that unamerican scum can't fight a guerilla war. my biggest fear is their brains getting splattered all over me.
Actually that is incorrect, British historical records show that only about half his troops were Tories (american loyalists) the rest were crack Irishmen sent to him by Cornwallis from out of his own personal regiments... In fact when he returned from Cowpens with only some 200 odd of his 1000 troops Cornwallis took his sword and broke it...
He was not a good field commander...
Well I suppose it's possible that after several battles, replacements were not American Loyalists, but that's not in evidence. Do you have a link?
He and Cornwallis were never going to be friends but Cornwallis's success were all largely due to Tarleton
always being the tip of the spear and always covering the rear during rare retreats.
He may have been reckless and insubordinate, but he was pretty much the best field commander in the States,
bar none.
As to the sword incident when Tarleton returned and asked to retire and be court marshalled...
In fact while Tarleton never led men in battle again, he remained in the British military achieving a rank of General.
His last hurrah was to try to get a command in the Peninsula Wars against Napolean.
Wellington was awarded the post instead.
Outside of wiki no, but I do have a source, my bookshelf...
Buchanan, John. The Road to Guilford Courthouse: The American Revolution in the Carolinas. John Wiley and Sons, New York, 1997
I'll look up the page reference for you if Wiki hasn't covered it already...
Best British tactical commander I would probably agree, (but hard to judge between him and Burgoyne) but if you consider American commanders as well, Brig. Bendict Arnold comes to mind.... And Brig. Daniel Morgan whose Cowpens battle plan is still taught in most of the military academies around the world, ranked right up there with Cannae for tactical brilliance...
I might have it but I haven't unpacked 20 boxes of books yet, lol.
Only moved here 6 years ago....
Yep, I have two myself and I moved here 24 years ago... (library/study just isn't big enough to fit another bookcase)
Brains 🧠? What brains?
It doesn't really seem that they mean well, depending on how you define that term. At best, I would call them seriously misguided.
At best I would call them militant morons.
These people are 'preppers' geared up, 'pumped,' and "idling' for a revolution our government works to see never come! Like all 'organics' they are graying out and so it is with those expensive guns and storage facilities. Oh boy, and girl, those knees are 'shot' after all those field maneuvers to keep up. And eyes, don't mention worsening sight.
With all this in mind, well these folks want shit to hit the fan (already). Before like grapes left out in the sun they rot or dry up!
Though, I make a light-hearted sincere point; it is no laughing matter. (If you have wondered why generally-speaking blacks and other people of color limit their time in the mountains and forest-woods, well, it has something to do with a 'kind' of human in the mountains and woods prowling-not just bears and mountain lions.)
I can agree with that.
You are very right, CB. It is no laughing matter. They are a serious danger.
So as these so-called patriots 'age-out' they are getting antsy-at-large. Thus, they are willing to believe a "Big Lie" because it is a pretext to violent overthrow. Case in point: Majorie Taylor-Greene is actually doing her best to scratch some subset of so-called, "patriots" itchiness. Do not be mistaken or confused, that. . .woman, knows exactly what she is trying to provoke.
It reminds me of any time you see a girl or woman cheering two boys or men fighting over something innocuous otherwise, and that girl or woman sees an opportunity to yell out excitedly repeatedly: "Kill him!" "Kill him."
She knows what she is trying to stir up!
Marjorie Taylor Greene is a reactionary extremist provocateur and a bully. And a truly horrible person.
Emphatically.
That she has a megaphone and an audience, makes her worse. In addition, I would love to mention her Adam's apple, but it would be in bad taste to do so, especially here. I absolutely refuse to discuss her Adam's apple, so don't ask me to.
That she has a megaphone and an audience makes her MUCH worse.
Don't worry. We won't ask you to discuss her Adam's apple. In fact, we will never mention her Adam's apple. Her Adam's apple is not worth mentioning at all.
Good, because discussing her Adam's apple is something I simply will not do. Thank you for not asking me to discuss her Adam's apple.
You are not alone in your thinking.
My oath carried over even after I retired.
pssstttt....One doesn't place a hand on a holy book when taking the Oath of Enlistment. You just raise your right hand and state your name and then....yada yada yada
they also can omit any reference to god , most people dont know that.
Yep.
I may have not placed my hand on a bible when I took the oath, but that oath was just as important to me, book or no book.
So first we had The War on Christmas-- and no we have thr War on God!
Oh, the horror of it all! Will it never end?
its like the song that never ends ......it goes on and on my friend.
We won!
This was the song that was sung at God's funeral:
Stewart Rhodes is the leader of the Oath Keepers. He told his minions that they should prepare for a "bloody" operation.
Maybe he was planning to exercise his Second Amendment right to shoot himself in the face again.
gee, I always wondered what happened to poor little ralphie.
He needs to be properly dressed for court. Perhaps Jerry can lend him a shirt to complete the look.
The Puffy Shirt episode!
"I don't want to be the pirate!"
Lol. I heard this guy is also a graduate of Yale law school. I guess that bullet is still lodged in his cerebrum.
He was disbarred for abandoning clients after he accepted their payments (retainer fees, deposits, etc.).
He seems to have a habit of abandoning people after he receives their financial support , usually disguised as some sort of donation to his Oath Keepers cause de jour. Like Trump et al, it would seem that Stewart Rhodes depends on social media-created situations to support his lifestyle. Trump does rallies. Rhodes spanks up a new crowd-funding account.
I think the House Committee is trying to find out if their any coordination OR conversations with anyone associated with Trump supporters setup at the Willard(?) hotel (with plans to bring in outside state electors) AND these Oath Keepers (I think some Proud Boys may also get similar charges). SO far I haven't heard of anything concrete, but multiple sources have stated Oath Keepers were at the rally as "security" for political Trump supporters like Roger Stone.
Instead of asking questions about Roger Stone, why don't they subpoena his ass and ask him directly?
If they haven't already I'm sure they will. I don't know, maybe the committee is waiting for the DOJ to find that connection first. That would make Stone's questioning a little more interesting. It seems the Feds have the Oath Keepers' phones...
Roger Stone is known for avoiding that kind of legal entanglement...
When Roger Stone is involved and comes to town you will hear a great amount of hissing and 'scales' dragging across the pavement. Signifying great deception ahead!
AHA! You've identified The Beast in Revelation!
Roger Stone would just drink the fifth.
The only takeaway is that Roger Stone conspired with The Oath Keepers, The Proud Boys and The Ku Klux Klan to plan and organize Trump's January 6th Insurrection at the clearly expressed behest of then President of the United States Donald John Trump!
Looking good, CB!
The biggest takeaway? This will give the dems and the media talking points for the next few months as they try to convince people the riot was more than it was. Bad news guys. most people have moved on and less and less people are tuning in to listen to your endless propaganda.