No exception for life of mother included in Idaho GOP's abortion platform language - Idaho Capital Sun

  
Via:  sandy-2021492  •  4 months ago  •  130 comments

By:   Kelcie Moseley-Morris (Idaho Capital Sun)

No exception for life of mother included in Idaho GOP's abortion platform language - Idaho Capital Sun
Idaho Republican delegates rejected an amendment that would have provided an exception for a mother who has an abortion to safe her life.

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Resolutions and platform officially adopted at Twin Falls convention


Correction: This article has been updated to reflect that the platform and resolutions as adopted by the convention delegates are now officially in effect. Only rules adopted by the delegates will need approval from the state central committee in January.

By a nearly four-to-one margin, Idaho Republicans at the state party's convention in Twin Falls rejected an amendment to the party platform on Saturday that would have provided an exception for a mother who has an abortion to save her life.

Scott Herndon, a candidate for the Idaho Senate who won the Republican primary over Sen. Jim Woodward, R-Sagle, in May and has no opponent in the general election, proposed adding language to the party platform about abortion. While language already existed in the platform classifying abortion as murder from the moment of fertilization, Herndon's language added that the party supports the criminalization of all abortions within the state's jurisdiction and said Idaho's Constitution should be amended to include a "declaration of the right to life for preborn children."

Herndon argued the exception should not be included because over the past nearly 50 years since the U.S. Supreme Court made the original Roe v. Wade ruling, exceptions made in the law eroded progress for the anti-abortion movement.

"For the last 49 years we have essentially lost the argument in the culture because we have focused on abortion as the termination of a pregnancy and not the termination of a living human being," Herdon told delegates.

He also said the oath a doctor takes to do no harm covers such situations, and if a doctor is treating a pregnant person and the unborn child, it is in line with standards of medical care to determine who can legitimately be saved. To add exceptions would be to give priority to one patient over the other, he said.

"We will never win this human rights issue, the greatest of our time, if we make allowances for the intentional killing of another human being," Herndon said.

Herndon also told the Capital Sun he is working on legislation that will include more precise language, but the party platform didn't need to be as precise with its wording since it is a position statement, not law.

The delegation did approve an amendment to Herndon's language to exclude miscarriages from criminal penalties.

Herndon's proposal also included updates to the abortion section of the platform that addressed the U.S. Supreme Court, adding, "Idaho has the sovereign authority to defy the federal judiciary should they once again propose the fiction that abortion is a federal constitutional right."

The platform also includes a new section saying the party believes parents, not the state, have a sacred duty and right to rear their children in the manner they see fit. It also said the party believes a child's gender assigned at birth to be an essential characteristic of identity and purpose.

"We call upon parents, responsible citizens, and officers of government to promote measures that respect and protect the biological gender of children," the language says. "We strongly oppose any person, entity or policy that attempts to confuse minors regarding their biological gender."

Other platform additions include support for repeal of 16th Amendment


The approved platform also includes language stating the party's primary should be open to all people who affiliated as Republicans at least one year before the primary election and support a "vast majority" of the party platform. There is also a new section of the platform stating the party supports the repeal of the 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which gives Congress the power to levy and collect income taxes.

At the same time, the platform also includes a section on judicial interpretation, stating that the party opposes any interpretation of the U.S. Constitution and Idaho Constitution that is not rooted in textualism and originalism. The platform "emphatically affirms" that judges have a duty to interpret statutory terms to mean what they conveyed to reasonable people at the time they were written.

The platform and approved resolutions are considered official now that the convention has adjourned. The state central committee will still need to approve rules that were adopted by the delegates.

Approved resolutions did not include rejection of 2020 presidential election


Delegates approved several resolutions, including one from Darr Moon stating support for legislation that would require all elections in the state of Idaho to be partisan, with the exception of judicial elections.

A resolution directing the Idaho Republican Party to dismiss a lawsuit against the Bonneville County Central Republican Committee was also approved after it failed in committee on a tie vote. By party rules, a resolution that ends in a tie vote in committee can be voted on again by the full delegation.

A resolution that would have stated the Idaho Republican Party rejected the certified election of President Joe Biden did not pass out of committee .

Our stories may be republished online or in print under Creative Commons license CC BY-NC-ND 4.0. We ask that you edit only for style or to shorten, provide proper attribution and link to our web site. Please see our republishing guidelines for use of photos and graphics.

Kelcie Moseley-Morris is an award-winning journalist who has covered many topics across Idaho since 2011. She has a bachelor's degree in journalism from the University of Idaho and a master's degree in public administration from Boise State University. Moseley-Morris started her journalism career at the Moscow-Pullman Daily News, followed by the Lewiston Tribune and the Idaho Press.


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sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1  seeder  sandy-2021492    4 months ago

No exemption to save the life of the pregnant woman.  Let's stop pretending this isn't about hating women.  These folks would rather sacrifice both lives than save one, if the one saved is female.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @1    4 months ago

thumpers know what would happen to them if the establishment clause is breached in my state.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
1.2  Split Personality  replied to  sandy-2021492 @1    4 months ago

It's Idaho, the christian white nationalist potato & huckleberry capital of the usa. 

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.1  bugsy  replied to  Split Personality @1.2    4 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
1.2.2  cjcold  replied to  Split Personality @1.2    4 months ago

The delegation did approve an amendment to Herndon's language to exclude miscarriages from criminal penalties.

Considering that spontaneous abortions are the realm of their god, that's mighty white of them.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2.3  devangelical  replied to  Split Personality @1.2    4 months ago

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.2.4  seeder  sandy-2021492  replied to  devangelical @1.2.3    4 months ago

This deserves its own seed.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.5  CB   replied to  devangelical @1.2.3    4 months ago

THE "EMPIRE" STRIKES BACK!!!

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2.6  devangelical  replied to  CB @1.2.5    4 months ago

anti-choice stupidity will haunt the fascist party for many elections to come.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.2.7  CB   replied to  devangelical @1.2.6    4 months ago

Those people had 50 years thereabouts of a SCOTUS opinion to reorganize their thinking, and at the end of the day, the first chance they get to "engineer" a so-called conservative court (I will let you be the judge of why any honorable man or woman would participate in being politically "directed" to take a seat on the bench) they lie to get on the court and then talk about let's invalidate the so-called, "liberal" court that is us, but not really!

This country is being 'played' by the GOP. The Rule of Law is being critically mocked. And all the while the GOP is becoming 'beholden' to a delusional world where MAGA is truth and law unto itself. 

It reminds me of something alright: A time in this country where the majority really believed in their hearts and in their heads that minorities and women had (past tense) no rights and opinions, a white man was required to respect.  And so, lying in public to get what you needed and want you wanted from minorities and women was a rational act unto itself!

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
1.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  sandy-2021492 @1    4 months ago

I’ve been saying it for years, the anti-abortion crowd’s actual goal is to roll back all gains in regards equality of the sexes made over the last 150 years. 

I’ve said the entire time that if they succeed on abortion they will keep going until women are effectively removed from greater society and relegated once again back to the home to do little more than be maids and brood mares. That is the Christian rights goal, pure and simple. 

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
1.4  al Jizzerror  replied to  sandy-2021492 @1    4 months ago
No exemption to save the life of the pregnant woman.

The anti-abortion assholes don't give a shit about women.  They only care about zygotes, embryos and fetuses. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.4.1  TᵢG  replied to  al Jizzerror @1.4    4 months ago

It is ultimately a religious thing for most.   Goes back to the notion of a soul.   If a religion, take the Catholic religion for example, believed that the soul arrived at sentience then the concern for earlier forms:  zygotes, morulae, blastocysts, embryos and early fetal stages would likely not exist among Catholics.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
1.4.2  Ender  replied to  TᵢG @1.4.1    4 months ago

Science be damned...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.3  CB   replied to  TᵢG @1.4.1    4 months ago

This may be about the soul, but one has to question why the soul of the girl or woman does not matter in the case of her life or childbirth.  One thing is clear and religious, when somebodies do the fine work of constructing an impenetrable 'box' around girls and women-they are furiously laboring to cut off (all) avenues of escape from the box.

It is utter and total subjugation of the sex life of girls and women. An attempt by MAGA to make girls and women cease from 'all this sex, and sex talk' that is pervasive in the country. And if girls and women threat to withhold sex. . . repeal of the Domestic Violence Act hangs like a threat in the air over their heads. All by getting SCOTUS justices to rule the act unconstitutional.

And then will come a compelling for girls and women to marry, because life outside of marriage will be harsh and brutal. Marriage will again be a 'safe zone' for a girl and a women to be 'protected' from the harm 'outside.'  It's called, 'covering.'

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.4.4  TᵢG  replied to  CB @1.4.3    4 months ago

I appreciate your point, cb, but let's back away from the point where the woman's life is typically in danger and just look at the first trimester.   There is no possibility of sentience in this stage.   And the first trimester is the most likely time when a woman would seek an abortion.   Even in the early second trimester, sentience is not really in effect.   

So if the belief was that the soul appears upon sentience, can you imagine the religious objection of the soul no longer applying in the early pregnancy?   And, if so, what then is the objection?   On what grounds would one object to abortion?

I am describing a scenario where we have biological processes taking place to grow something (like a plant grows) and that something has no soul, no nervous system, etc.   What is the reason for forcing a woman to carry this biological growth to term?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.5  CB   replied to  TᵢG @1.4.4    4 months ago

I do agree with you on the point of the soul being considered as entering before or arriving at the 'quickening.'  I really don't know if that is the main concern (I do not bother to peruse pro-life reading materials), but I can see why the Right adds it to their case. For sure, what I see the pro-life attempting to do is prioritize and exploit the fact that once an egg is fertilized if left to its own devices it would likely result in "perfect" birth and continue on in this world. That is:

Conception:Birth:Childhood:Teenhood:Adulthood:Death.

And they are right about that. I won't deny the truth of the point!

But that is not the point of abortion. Abortion, put bluntly, can be about stopping the progression of a fetus in its tracks because it is not fully anything "ready" for the world. MAGA conservatives understand what underdevelopment of a fetus is in regards to be 'prepared' to live in our world—but they won't relent. They 'deny' girls, women, professionals, and science the WIN and the 'vigor' of its argument. And with narrow-minded conviction MAGA says not only will a girl or woman not abort the 'unborn' for cause, she may have to die to give it life. Thus, pitting her life for its life!

Why 'put' it out there like 'that'?

Think of it this way: A girl or woman seeking an abortion is looking for an 'out' in the minds of MAGA conservatives. These conservatives are now of a mind to 'lock with heavy chains' all exits or proceeding that lead out and roundabout back to abortion. Thus, the best argument for MAGA is to argue soul or fertilization. That way there is a straight path to suggesting there is no ACCEPTABLE argument for a girl or woman to make. Finally, it is evident that 'boxing' girls and women in is what they are after, because they are removing all forms, paths, processes, devices, tools, and the ultimate indicator of 'compelling' — adding criminalization. That is, privacy, freedom, 'free' abortion once available is now being made punishable.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.6  CB   replied to  TᵢG @1.4.4    4 months ago

My friend, Tig. I am reading between the lines (as will and must girls and women). When someone is using verbiage that explicitly states laws against sell or use of the tools called contraceptives or birth control measures, girls and women understand clearly what they are being told: IF you have unprotected sex and you don't time your yourself 'right'-get pregnant and you MUST continue through to end of pregnancy. Don't seek out 'aid,' don't remove it yourself, if someone snitches that you are 'sneaking around' for ways out of a proper pregnancy we will learn of it and act against. . . 'you.'

These are not measures to just protect a soul from abortion. This is deliberately forcing girls and women into celibacy, and ultimately the goal being heterosexual marriage. Because same-sex marriage is up on the chopping block NEXT!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.4.7  TᵢG  replied to  CB @1.4.6    4 months ago

Indeed, that is why I characterize the direction as Taliban-esque.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.8  CB   replied to  TᵢG @1.4.7    4 months ago

Emphatically. I read it and agree.

Our enemy is our 'frenemy' and is amongst us. Not even pretending to care. . . .

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
1.4.9  Thrawn 31  replied to  TᵢG @1.4.1    4 months ago
It is ultimately a religious thing for most

Agreed.

 Goes back to the notion of a soul.

Disagree. It goes back to a woman's proper biblical place. The ability of women to control or not control their reproduction is central to male dominance. For the religious right, this is all about putting women back in their proper place, hence why we are already seeing challenges to the right to contraception and the ACA making insurance companies cover it. 

This has ALWAYS, 100%, been about taking women back, only a fool couldn't see it. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.4.10  TᵢG  replied to  Thrawn 31 @1.4.9    4 months ago
only a fool couldn't see it. 

I do not hold that everyone out there who argues pro-life cares EXCLUSIVELY about subjugating women and does not hold a religious notion of the soul and the sanctity of life as their main objection.   Abortion denial is ultimately about controlling a woman's choice but I do not believe that everyone who seeks this control is doing it simply to control and not because of their beliefs of soul and the sanctity of life.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.11  CB   replied to  TᵢG @1.4.10    4 months ago

It is mixed bag set of policy prescriptions with intent to execute. It is a known quality amongst people of faith that what they tend to "put their foot down" about they do so with steadfast force and engagement.

The trick is persuading the religious-driven to put their feet down and that involves various methods, shapes and forms, and sets of instructions. Pro-life has been specifically manipulating the evangelical white churches for decades, honing a message with "perfect pitch" to the ears of those members.

And yes, talk of a soul is an "ingredient" in the pro-life persuasion tool-box. Just like other forms of manipulation (such as demonizing) leading to outright hatred for science, medicine, vaccines, and in this specific case: abortion.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.4.12  TᵢG  replied to  CB @1.4.11    4 months ago

You have identified forces seeking to subjugate women based on pure misogyny and suggested that these forces are manipulating the religious by arguing abortion kills a being with a soul.

Is that correct?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.13  CB   replied to  TᵢG @1.4.12    4 months ago

No, I am not getting into the "hating" part of it. I have not considered that.  What I know, as a Christian, is Christians can support causes that they are led to believe are righteous, even when it is more a case of being self-righteous. They can do this because standing on a principle or principles (in this case misguided) is a form of self-discipline. So then, once persuaded and having made up their minds, Christians, specifically White Christian Evangelicals will exert their power of majority and influence to make what they consider right and wholesome come to be.

That is why you may have heard that some politicians (for instance George W. Bush) are said to laugh at the Evangelicals behind their backs because of their extreme positions on issues  which said politicians know can never be policy positions in practice. (At least, before now.)

Misogyny, maybe too strong a word for what these people are doing. It is more like trying to "love" people into taking a position held by the church-through making it the only option. Think of it this way. Many parents put their feet down with their children and forbid the entry of this or that thing onto their property or in their homes. To be effective, those parents purchase and place cameras inside and around the property to keep track of goings on. At that point, this is a control measure to see that their wishes are not thwarted.

That is the control the Evangelicals are putting in place around girls and women in regards to abortion. No yielding to the cries or perceived excuses shall be entertained. They see it as good girls and women. Though, we see it properly as not their (damn) call or business. :)

Finally, that is why SCOTUS specifically opined (and it is picked up as a talking point by MAGA): There is no right to privacy expressly stated in the constitution.

A peculiar thing to say in a country that prides itself on individual rights and privileges. But, now being argued as the case all the same.

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Guide
1.4.14  evilgenius  replied to  Thrawn 31 @1.4.9    4 months ago
It goes back to a woman's proper biblical place. The ability of women to control or not control their reproduction is central to male dominance. For the religious right, this is all about putting women back in their proper place, hence why we are already seeing challenges to the right to contraception and the ACA making insurance companies cover it.

It wasn't until after the Civil War that male doctors were concerned with female reproduction health at all. Up until the rise of Catholic doctors that used religion and politics to outlaw midwifes and take control, contraception and abortions were widely practiced. You are partially correct about taking women back to a romanticized gender role, but it is also about how many of them view sex as only for procreation. In their thinking any woman having sex for pleasure is wrong. A single woman having sex for pleasure should be a legally punishable crime. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
1.4.15  Sean Treacy  replied to  evilgenius @1.4.14    4 months ago

Up until the rise of Catholic doctors that used religion and politics to outlaw midwifes and take control, contraception and abortions were widely practiced.

That's crazy talk.   This seed has reached protocols of the elders of Zion levels of nuttiness.   

It's disturbing.

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Guide
1.4.16  evilgenius  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.4.15    4 months ago

What's disturbing are those that deny history.

Dr. Joseph DeLee “Progress Toward Ideal Obstetrics” (1915)

The midwife is a relic of barbarism. In civilized countries the midwife is wrong, has always been wrong … The midwife has been a drag on the progress of the science and art of obstetrics. Her existence stunts the one and degrades the other. For many centuries she perverted obstetrics from obtaining any standing at all among the science of medicine … Even after midwifery was practiced by some of the most brilliant men in the profession, such practice was held opprobrious and degraded.
 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
1.4.17  Split Personality  replied to  evilgenius @1.4.16    4 months ago

In 1900 less than 5% of American births were at actual hospitals.

Thanks in large part to Dr. DeLee along with several surges in the size of the middle

class, by 1960, 97% of all American births were in hospitals which practiced "twilight

sleep", episiotomies and forceps deliveries.  Mid wives were considered lower class,

a sign of poverty.

Slowly that changed in large part from the women's movement and by the 1980's some

midwives formed MANA, many were CNMs and the Federal Trade Commision had to

step in to prevent Insurers from retaliating against doctors who used CNMs.

Midwifery has rebounded a bit but is unlikely to recover to what it was prior to 1870.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
1.4.18  Sean Treacy  replied to  evilgenius @1.4.16    4 months ago
oseph DeLee

Oh.. So a Jewish guy wrote a book in 1915 (when abortion was illegal in just about every state) , and that somehow justifies your claim about widespread, safe abortions before "catholic doctors" put a stop to it. 

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
1.4.19  cjcold  replied to  al Jizzerror @1.4    4 months ago

But I do like those Sally Fields Flying Nun hats.

Bought one for a movie-star girlfriend back in the day.

She liked it and wore it on occasion. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.4.20  seeder  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.4.18    4 months ago
So a Jewish guy wrote a book

What, exactly, does his being Jewish have to do with anything?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.21  CB   replied to  evilgenius @1.4.14    4 months ago
In their thinking any woman having sex for pleasure is wrong. A single woman having sex for pleasure should be a legally punishable crime. 

And in that case, it is a moral failing of their thinking. Trying to objectify and rationalize why a single woman is not "given away to marriage" in her youth (she need not be defined by a boy or man) or settled into a relationship in her old age begs the question about what proper freedom and liberty is in this country. Because to begin with the aforementioned freedom and liberty means being free to decide life matters for oneself for good or ill!

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
1.4.22  Ender  replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.4.20    4 months ago

I blame them for circumcision...

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
1.4.23  Sean Treacy  replied to  sandy-2021492 @1.4.20    4 months ago

Did you read the post I was responding to and the bizarre  claim about a conspiracy of catholic doctors? And then he cited a Jewish doctor attacking midwives as evidence of made up claims about a catholic cabal.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
1.4.24  seeder  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.4.23    4 months ago

Fair enough.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
1.4.25  al Jizzerror  replied to  cjcold @1.4.19    4 months ago
But I do like those Sally Fields Flying Nun hats. Bought one for a movie-star girlfriend

Could she fly?

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
1.4.26  al Jizzerror  replied to  Ender @1.4.22    4 months ago
I blame them for circumcision...

Muslims also practice circumcision.  Some Muslim countries even practice female circumcision (AKA "female genital mutilation").  Circumcision (both male and female) is an archaic cruel religious practice that should cease.  It's child abuse.

Prevalence of female genital mutilation

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Female genital mutilation (FGM), also known as female genital cutting (FGC), is practiced in 30 countries in western, eastern, and north-eastern Africa, [1] in parts of the Middle East [2] [3] and Asia, [4] [5] and within some immigrant communities in Europe, North America and Australia. [1] [6] [7] The WHO defines the practice as "all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia , or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons." [8]

In a 2013 UNICEF report covering 29 countries in Africa and the Middle East, Egypt had the region's highest total number of women that have undergone FGM (27.2 million), while Somalia had the highest percentage ( prevalence ) of FGM (98%). [9]

 
 
 
Thomas
Sophomore Guide
1.4.27  Thomas  replied to  TᵢG @1.4.1    4 months ago

Well, I  am an outlier, I guess. 

Personally, I feel that life begins at conception.  In my view, there is really no other way to look at it. 

Now, the fertilized egg may or may not implant in the uterus.  A whole host of things can occur subsequently to cause the fertilized egg to miscarry.  

That said, as the male In the situation, I can only express my opinion. I cannot force, in either direction, the woman's decision.  That choice is for her and her alone. 

This is how I feel as a libertarian about this issue.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.28  CB   replied to  Thomas @1.4.27    4 months ago

Let's be clear. I agree with you. We should never deny reality. Even when it stings, hurts, or is different from our purposes. Doing so would make us guilty as charged! ;)

Is sperm alive? Is a female egg alive? If yes, then certainly what is wrought of their union is alive. What abortion 'accomplishes' is not the elimination of something dead of itself, but the taking away of a quantity unborn.  And yes, it is a sad procedure to perform and to have done on oneself. If someone is overly expressive of joy and relief at having an abortion it is a good chance the point of the act has been missed.

And yes, there are benefits to the living to wait for a more suitable time to take on the care and rearing of another person. BTW, abortion as choice is likely a unique human action. Don't quote me on that last one, nevertheless!

 
 
 
Thomas
Sophomore Guide
1.4.29  Thomas  replied to  CB @1.4.28    4 months ago

Friend, we are departing and arriving at the same places,  no matter the paths (or thoughts) taken. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.30  CB   replied to  Thomas @1.4.29    4 months ago

The hardest part of any journey of discovery is being truest to oneself followed up by being true to the expanding circle of people you touch in this life!  Peace, my brother.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4.31  devangelical  replied to  Thomas @1.4.27    4 months ago

I don't care when life officially starts. it's all about bodily autonomy, if you don't have it, you're a slave to whoever creates laws that says you can't have it. 150+ years ago we killed half a million people that tried to keep individual freedom from a fraction of the population that quite a few people on both sides didn't really care what happened to them. I don't think the folks using religious dogma to justify subjugating 51% of the voters will fare any better with that concept this time either. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
1.4.32  TᵢG  replied to  Thomas @1.4.27    4 months ago
Personally, I feel that life begins at conception.  In my view, there is really no other way to look at it. 

At conception we have the earliest stage of a human life form and it is a single cell.   Biologically it is a human life form, but morally it is not a human being.

The question of course is the sanctity of that life form in context of the life and well-being of the mother and the life and well-being of a human being that would likely be the end result of that cell continuing to grow within the woman.

Another question, more focused on moral and legal rights is personhood.   

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4.33  devangelical  replied to  TᵢG @1.4.32    4 months ago

after multiple failed attempts with personhood on the state ballot, the legislature finally changed the rules in my state to make it much more difficult and expensive for domestic terrorists hiding behind organized religion to further their theocratic goals.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.4.34  Tessylo  replied to  Thomas @1.4.27    4 months ago

Wow, personally, whatever floats your boat.

Not saying your view is flawed, but, personally, your opinion.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.4.35  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @1.4.31    4 months ago

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Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.4.36  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @1.4.35    4 months ago

296446478_5927664690578486_7568724765379104836_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s640x640&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=PjuF0L6zpgYAX-0NWiU&tn=ddyv9WRSVi2y4Anp&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT-minkY557bXUw-QD5z9GiXQEbO5tOfckWHUrY4n-kUVQ&oe=62F0C2A8

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.4.37  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @1.4.36    4 months ago

295056973_455823773315869_3192210542494935710_n.jpg?stp=cp1_dst-jpg_p180x540&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=Cb4NUotG0M8AX_LXPDI&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_obK9i0UyxRwHFoE1OiIPK3bEOve7-Hcj9ubBUvvQiZw&oe=62F08958

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.4.38  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @1.4.37    4 months ago

290332035_457984242998740_5859591151452238223_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p180x540&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=gI-z7Jh-zzQAX_5ttvq&tn=ddyv9WRSVi2y4Anp&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT-xlcmo7O1qTvrGD1uqAL3dey-zUHO_cLfNkB5wGnhmUg&oe=62F10BE1

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.4.39  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @1.4.38    4 months ago

293799017_8098890860128496_2948467094269704843_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p180x540&_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=mqCzopEDfT4AX9bmkES&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_DG0DquBgnKn191S3LfIFG6u-jisISin4mqpaxUHu7Dw&oe=62F05DCB

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.4.40  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @1.4.33    4 months ago

290329158_5181797251906264_9215051194103977973_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p180x540&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=wAYwgmQW584AX9QBmU1&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT-gKDej2r0LGFpiUlb7CZKzbvLsg9vTp014AdI-Gg3IwQ&oe=62F0D344

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4.41  devangelical  replied to  Tessylo @1.4.40    4 months ago

is there some new revised version of the bible these fucking thumpers are working off of now?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.42  CB   replied to  devangelical @1.4.41    4 months ago

No. God has not told these evangelicals to sin so that good can come of it. This is evangelicals doing this on their own. Thinking somehow God needs their help. Of course that is hubris.

 
 
 
Thomas
Sophomore Guide
1.4.43  Thomas  replied to  Tessylo @1.4.34    4 months ago

I believe that I said it was my personal opinion. And as an opinion it is applicable only to me. I don't run from it, but neither do I try to force it onto anyone else. I state my opinion. 

It is when people, for whatever reason, begin the attempt to implement their opinions upon others with the force of law instead of using the persuasiveness of language backed by the knowledge of science and the wisdom of humanity that overreach begins. It is also my considered opinion that a government such as ours which purports to be of, by, and for the people should have no compelling interest as a state as to what one chooses to do with one's personal self, as long as you are not infringing upon another's rights. Up to and until the fetus is free of the womb and/or displaying the ability to independently carry on life functions, it is a "part" of the woman and therefore, the womans to decide on it's fate. 

 
 
 
Thomas
Sophomore Guide
1.4.44  Thomas  replied to  devangelical @1.4.31    4 months ago

Please See my response to Tessyloo @ 1.4.43

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
1.4.45  CB   replied to  Thomas @1.4.44    4 months ago

It's all good and par for the course, friend Thomas! :)

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2  Buzz of the Orient    4 months ago

Savages - dragging America back to the middle ages.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Guide
2.1  1stwarrior  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2    4 months ago

Middle Ages - “Middle Ages” describes Europe between the fall of Rome in 476 CE and the beginning of the Renaissance in the 14th century.

.

America wasn't even a "wet-dream" in the 1300's.

So, they're dragging the world back into the Euro Medieval ages, right?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.1  devangelical  replied to  1stwarrior @2.1    4 months ago

I'm sorry I wasn't the first to see the flag on your deflective comment.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  1stwarrior @2.1    4 months ago

Some on this site are competent to understand why and when a dramatization is used to underline a point.  

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
2.1.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  1stwarrior @2.1    4 months ago

When it comes to womens rights yes. Frankly a good portion of the Christian Right wants to take those rights back a few thousand more years. The anti-abortion goal has always been to reduce women back to second class citizenship or worse.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
2.1.4  cjcold  replied to  1stwarrior @2.1    4 months ago

There is a lone wolf coyote that comes to visit on occasion. 

I know and she knows that she is safe here.

Who knows? Maybe a Dances With Wolves thingy someday. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
2.2  Split Personality  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2    4 months ago

Nah, just the Idaho of 1830.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Split Personality @2.2    4 months ago

Do they still have horse watering troughs in the cities there?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.2  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.1    4 months ago

what do you think the white supremacists bathe in during the summers there?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.2.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  devangelical @2.2.2    4 months ago

Any port in a storm, eh?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.4  devangelical  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.2.3    4 months ago

why thas jusa lil ol' cowboy hot tub pardnuh...

 
 
 
Veronica
Masters Expert
3  Veronica    4 months ago

This makes me fucking sick.  Women are of no consequence to these people & we have the highest maternal death rate of the "developed countries"

In 2018, there were 17 maternal deaths for every 100,000 live births in the U.S. — a ratio more than double that of most other high-income countries (Exhibit 1). In contrast, the maternal mortality ratio was three per 100,000 or fewer in in the Netherlands, Norway, and New Zealand.

.

That is defiantly going to go WAY up as these fucking shitheads place the potential life ahead of the person already living.  How many women's deaths is acceptable to these fucking assholes?

I think it is time for MANDATORY organ registry.  YOU have to be a living donor to save a person's life.  After all lives are important regardless of what the fuck happens to you.

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
4  Hallux    4 months ago

"The delegation did approve an amendment to Herndon's language to exclude miscarriages from criminal penalties."

How benevolent of them ... 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
5  charger 383    4 months ago

men against abortion do not deserve to have sex with women

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
5.1  Gordy327  replied to  charger 383 @5    4 months ago

Men should have no say in abortion to begin with.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  charger 383 @5    4 months ago

You deserve all the sex you can get, Charger

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
5.2.1  charger 383  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.2    4 months ago

Thank You!

 
 
 
Thomas
Sophomore Guide
5.2.2  Thomas  replied to  charger 383 @5.2.1    4 months ago

That is how I would reply to that statement, also. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  charger 383 @5    4 months ago

You might see a reinstatement of women's rights if all the women would keep their legs crossed, but we'll see in November how many of them are actually handmaidens. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
5.3.1  seeder  sandy-2021492  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.3    4 months ago

Lysistrata!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.3.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.3.1    4 months ago
"Lysistrata!"

Good one, but then they'll have to occupy the Federal Reserve as well. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
5.3.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.3.1    4 months ago

Haha, yep! 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
6  Tacos!    4 months ago

Is there some kind of contest going on to award prizes to the Republicans with the coldest hearts? You have to go out of your way to be this mean.

A couple dozen countries in the world(mostly 3rd world or tiny) don’t allow abortions - even to save the life of the woman . That leaves like 170 or so that do.

Even countries that you might think would delight in having women die, still allow abortion to save a woman’s life. Iran? Saudi Arabia? North Korea? They allow it. What about the Taliban? Is abortion allowed in Afghanistan to save the life of the woman? YES! Most of the Muslim world, in fact, allows it.

Soak that in: Incredibly, the home of the Taliban - Afghanistan - has a more liberal policy on abortion than the Republicans of Idaho would choose. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
6.1  seeder  sandy-2021492  replied to  Tacos! @6    4 months ago

I wonder if Canada would accept women from Idaho as political refugees.

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
6.1.1  Hallux  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1    4 months ago

Idano ... but I would.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
6.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  sandy-2021492 @6.1    4 months ago

Canada, where abortion is NOT illegal, has already made it clear that it welcomes women needing to escape from the Dark Ages, seeking help from a civilized nation in that regard. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
6.2  Split Personality  replied to  Tacos! @6    4 months ago

So if the mother dies in childbirth, is the child arrested for murder?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
6.2.1  devangelical  replied to  Split Personality @6.2    4 months ago

... as an accomplice. no worries, it's under 18, it won't be doing any time.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
6.2.2  Tacos!  replied to  Split Personality @6.2    4 months ago

Only if it’s a girl.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
6.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  Tacos! @6    4 months ago

As I’ve said previously, at this point their policies are just wonton. They are cruel for cruelty’s sake. They seem to revel in the suffering g of others, probably the only way they can get hard. 

The GOP policies are based on nothing but causing harm. Not science, not sound policy ideas, not a desire to address any issues facing the country, just trying to hurt as many people as they can for their own personal enjoyment. 

Conservatism has become a cult of sadism.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
6.3.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Thrawn 31 @6.3    4 months ago

Goddamn spellcheck. Wanton, not wonton.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
7  Trout Giggles    4 months ago

So I guess if you have an ectopic pregnancy in Idaho, you're fucked.

If your mommy is pregnant and the pregnancy is killing her, you're fucked, Kiddo, because you're going to lose your mommy

Hey, Dad of 3, sorry that you're going to have to carry on taking care of 3 little ones all on your own because your wife's pregnancy killed her.

fucking bastards

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
7.1  seeder  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @7    4 months ago

At this point, I don't know how there are even female Republicans left.  It seems obvious to me that the party is blatantly adopting the stance that the lives of women and girls do not matter to them.  They'll kill a 10-year-old girl by making her carry a pregnancy that originated in rape, or a woman who has the misfortune to have an ectopic pregnancy or incomplete miscarriage.

And then they'll claim to be "pro-life".

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
7.1.1  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @7.1    4 months ago
At this point, I don't know how there are even female Republicans left.

... not standing up.

 
 
 
Thomas
Sophomore Guide
7.1.2  Thomas  replied to  sandy-2021492 @7.1    4 months ago

R-E-L-I-G-I-O-N

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8  Ender    4 months ago

Why are we letting minority rule...

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9  Kavika     4 months ago

SCOTUS must be proud of its decision.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
9.1  Split Personality  replied to  Kavika @9    4 months ago

Alito is.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
9.1.1  Kavika   replied to  Split Personality @9.1    4 months ago

Sadly I saw his comments at the ''Religious Freedom'' gathering. Yes, indeed Alito for governor of Idaho.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
9.1.2  Tessylo  replied to  Split Personality @9.1    4 months ago

And the other lying hypocrites - that traitor to women - I forget her name, Token Thomas, Whiny Little Bitch Kavanaugh

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
9.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Kavika @9    4 months ago

Fuck yeah they are. 

And I gotta say it again, I said the Dems should have nominated Bernie as opposed to Hillary. And for those who “just couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Hillary”, fuck you. Hope you are appreciating the gravity of your fuck up.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
9.3  Gordy327  replied to  Kavika @9    4 months ago

For those opposed to abortion,  this is exactly what they wanted whether they realized it or not. They must be so proud. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
9.3.1  seeder  sandy-2021492  replied to  Gordy327 @9.3    4 months ago

My sister-in-law had two ectopic pregnancies.  The first ruptured while she was at work, which is fortunate.  She works in a hospital.  They live in the sticks, and if she'd been at home, she likely would have bled out before an ambulance could get there.

She was furious about the legislator in Ohio who tried to get a bill passed forcing doctors to reimplant ectopic pregnancies.  She knows full well that it isn't possible, and that women with the same condition she survived may now or in the near future be at a real risk of dying from what will amount to legal murder.

She voted for Trump.  Shot herself right in the foot.  Or the ovary.  I really want to say "I told you so," but I love my brother and don't want to start trouble with his wife.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
9.3.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  sandy-2021492 @9.3.1    4 months ago

 really want to say "I told you so," 

Why? Ectopic pregnancies have nothing to do with abortions.  Why conflate the two?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
9.3.3  seeder  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sean Treacy @9.3.2    4 months ago

Ectopic pregnancies are treated via either a medical or surgical abortion.  I'm pretty sure you actually know this, and are just trolling.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
9.3.4  devangelical  replied to  Sean Treacy @9.3.2    4 months ago

seed that washington examiner article so it can be properly ridiculed.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
9.3.5  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @9.3.3    4 months ago

Don't ectopic pregnancies show positive on a pregnancy test?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
9.3.6  seeder  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @9.3.5    4 months ago

They do.  IIRC, they may have a lower HCG level than a normal pregnancy at the same gestational stage, but I'd have to look that up 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
9.3.7  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @9.3.6    4 months ago

I thought so

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
10  afrayedknot    4 months ago

And nary a single word from the normal protagonists…perhaps even they can understand a poorly written script. 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
10.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  afrayedknot @10    4 months ago

Because even they know this is bullshit. They have mothers, wives, and daughters they love and don't want to lose

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
10.1.1  Gordy327  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.1    4 months ago

Not only is it BS, it's Draconian level bs! 

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Freshman Quiet
10.1.2  afrayedknot  replied to  Gordy327 @10.1.1    4 months ago

“Not only is it BS, it's Draconian level bs!”

And not only draconian, it is medieval.

The Salem witch hunts have already begun. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
10.1.3  Gordy327  replied to  afrayedknot @10.1.2    4 months ago

This will make Salem seem tame by comparison. We've finally reached Taliban level nonsense. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
10.1.4  seeder  sandy-2021492  replied to  Gordy327 @10.1.3    4 months ago

I have a feeling the witches will fight back, this time.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
10.1.5  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @10.1.4    4 months ago

They are already gathering....

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
11  Kavika     4 months ago

This is a great article that destroys Alito and the RW nut cases. It's a long read but for many, I think that he will throw a whole new light on it. 

Abortion Has Always Been a Part of America—Even if Alito Won’t Admit It

The justice claims “this Nation’s history and tradition” oppose the practice. Exactly whose history is he considering?

 
 
 
Gsquared
Senior Expert
11.1  Gsquared  replied to  Kavika @11    4 months ago

Alito is nothing more than a reactionary ideology who will not stop until he has imposed his dystopian vision on America.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
11.2  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Kavika @11    4 months ago
  • Before 1840, abortion was widespread and largely-stigma-free for American women.
  • The first anti-abortion advocates in the United States were male physicians who sought to make abortion illegal to push out competition from midwives and female healers.
  • The idea that fetuses have rights and those rights trump those of living women and girls is a relatively new concept, historians say.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
11.2.1  Kavika   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @11.2    4 months ago

Check out the article that I posted above. It explains how the US had abortion long before there was the US or before the Europeans showed up and brought their religion beliefs with them.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
11.2.2  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Kavika @11.2.1    4 months ago

Will do!

 
 
 
Revillug
Freshman Guide
11.2.3  Revillug  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @11.2    4 months ago
The idea that fetuses have rights and those rights trump those of living women and girls is a relatively new concept, historians say.

The Catholic Church had long held that a fetus becomes animated with a soul some finite time after conception.

From wikipedia:

Following Aristotle's view, it was commonly held by some "leading Catholic thinkers" in early Church history that a human being did not come into existence as such immediately on conception, but only some weeks later. Abortion was viewed as a sin, but not as murder, until the embryo was animated by a human soul. [29] In On Virginal Conception and Original Sin 7, Anselm of Canterbury (1033–1109) said that "no human intellect accepts the view that an infant has the rational soul from the moment of conception." [15] A few decades after Anselm's death, a Catholic collection of canon law , in the Decretum Gratiani , stated that "he is not a murderer who brings about abortion before the soul is in the body." [15] Even when Church law, in line with the theory of delayed ensoulment, assigned different penalties to earlier and later abortions, abortion at any stage was considered a grave evil by some commentators. [30] Thus Thomas Aquinas , who accepted the Aristotelian theory that a human soul was infused only after 40 days for a male fetus, 90 days for a female, saw abortion of an unsouled fetus as always unethical, [31] a serious crime, [32] a grave sin , a misdeed and contrary to nature. He wrote: "This sin, although grave and to be reckoned among misdeeds and against nature [...] is something less than homicide [...] nor is such to be judged irregular unless one procures the abortion of an already formed fetus." [15] [33] [34]

These are Christian views on abortion going back quite some time. St. Thomas Aquinas' views are from the 13th century.

Are you saying that in American history abortion was normalized for much of our history but only recently we have back-pedaled to the 13th century?

 
 
 
Gsquared
Senior Expert
12  Gsquared    4 months ago

This is unimaginable, but I'm not that surprised.  The republican party just keeps sinking lower and lower.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Principal
12.1  Gordy327  replied to  Gsquared @12    4 months ago

That particular nose dive started under Trump.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
12.1.1  seeder  sandy-2021492  replied to  Gordy327 @12.1    4 months ago

It was before that.  Reagan and his "moral majority", Newt Gingrich and his "I can cheat on my cancer-stricken wife, but I'll impeach you for it" hypocrisy, and GOP support of it.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
12.1.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  sandy-2021492 @12.1.1    4 months ago
Newt Gingrich and his "I can cheat on my cancer-stricken wife, but I'll impeach you for it" hypocrisy, and GOP support of it.

Exactly, the Dems should have defended Bill based on Newt’s hypocrisy instead of beating up on that young intern.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12.1.3  Kavika   replied to  sandy-2021492 @12.1.1    4 months ago

Ah yes, the Moral Majority...hypocrites all.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Senior Expert
12.1.4  Gsquared  replied to  sandy-2021492 @12.1.1    4 months ago

That is correct.  Trump was just a later manifestation of increasing right-wing extremism.  Now, DeSantis, Abbott and numerous others are pushing things to an even greater extreme.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
12.1.5  CB   replied to  Gsquared @12.1.4    4 months ago

This is what can happen when we try to play 'footsie' with MAGA who have been flagrantly flouting the rules and daring anybody to take them to court (where they hope to have stacked the deck)! The time has come and is indeed here, where liberals have to stand up and be counted.

Why?

Because MAGA, your adversary, has the liberal lunchbox and is trying to put the whole damn 'box' into its mouth and chomp down on it!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.1.6  Tessylo  replied to  sandy-2021492 @12.1.1    4 months ago
"It was before that.  Reagan and his "moral majority", Newt Gingrich and his "I can cheat on my cancer-stricken wife, but I'll impeach you for it" hypocrisy, and GOP support of it."

I believe you are correct Sandy - but to be fair to Gordy - whatshisname forcing through these lying hypocrites helped move it along

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
13  TᵢG    4 months ago

This is just more Taliban crap in the USA.   It is sickening, the extremists get an opportunity and go ... to the extreme.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
13.1  CB   replied to  TᵢG @13    4 months ago

They will hurt me, you, and anybody else who gets in their way by any means necessary. You can see how they deny reason, compassion, and are ceaselessly pushing their 'aged-old' agenda further down liberals 'throats' each time we open up to take in a breath. They don't care that we see them lying, stealing, and oppressing ('owning') their political enemies: Takeover is the only thing!

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
13.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  TᵢG @13    4 months ago

They do exactly what they say they will do. One thing about extremists... they don't lie about what they want to do.

 
 

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