Iran Seizes U.S. Sailors Amid Claims of Spying

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By:  @community, last year
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A boat of the type seized by Iran in the Persian Gulf on Tuesday. The sailors aboard are expected to be returned soon. CreditZane Ecklun/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

 

 

WASHINGTON — Two United States Navy patrol boats and their crews were seized by the Iranian authorities in the Persian Gulf on Tuesday during what a Tehran news agency alleged was “snooping.”

But the Pentagon and the State Department said that one of the boats had experienced mechanical problems while en route from Kuwait to Bahrain on a routine mission. Administration officials said that the military had lost contact with the boats before they strayed into Iranian territorial waters. They said they had received assurances from Iran that the 10 sailors would be returned soon, perhaps on Wednesday.

The semiofficial Fars news agency in Iran said that the boats had illegally traveled more than a mile into Iranian waters near Farsi Island, the site of a major Iranian naval base. It said that members of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Navy had confiscated GPS equipment, which would “prove that the American ships were ‘snooping’ around in Iranian waters.”


The waters where the boats were sailing are a frequent location for intelligence collection by the United States, Iran and many gulf countries. The American and Iranian navies encounter each other frequently there.

 

 

~LINK~

 

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Larry Hampton
link 01/13/16 12:11:08AM @larry-hampton:

The American sailors were aboard two riverine patrol boats — 38-foot, high-speed boats that are used to patrol rivers and littoral waters. One official said the two vessels, which often patrol shallow waters near Bahrain, had failed to make a scheduled rendezvous with a larger ship to refuel.

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Buzz of the Orient
link 01/13/16 02:07:32AM @buzz-of-the-orient:

So much for Obama's good friends, the Iranians.

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ArkansasHermit
link 01/13/16 03:44:11AM @arkansashermit:

So much for Obama's good friends, the Iranians.

 

Well Buzz at least the Iranians didn't kill any of our guys, (hint, USS Liberty), so they shouldn't be expecting Billions in annual aid, unlike some of our other friends in the region.

Dam it, Life sure is messy!

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Sean Treacy
link 01/13/16 06:29:06AM @s:

z at least the Iranians didn't kill any of our guys,

They've killed about 500 Americans just in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to Obama's Joint Chief of Staff. That doesn't even count the victims of Iranian sponsored terrorism, like Beirut. 

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Buzz of the Orient
link 01/13/16 07:38:49PM @buzz-of-the-orient:

Has Iran apologized and paid millions of dollars in reparations for the Americans they have murdered or sponsored their proxies to kill? I'm sick and tired of ignorant assholes who compare the Liberty incident with the terrorism carried out against America and other civilized countries and their citizens. It's history. They may as well hold up placards saying "Blame the Jews for Killing Christ".

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Jerry Verlinger
link 01/15/16 01:30:01PM @jerry-verlinger:

So much for Obama's good friends, the Iranians.

(?!)

What's that supposed to mean? 

Iran is ... was, a potential nuclear threat in the Middle East, the most volatile region on the planet. Negotiating with them in an attempt to mitigate the threat they pose, to the world, the Middle East and particularly our close ally, Israel, does not mean they have become our 'good friend'.

As far as this incident is concerned, we don't know if the actions taken by the Iranian naval commander that decided to intercept our boats and mistreat our sailors, had the full authority and knowledge of the Iranian government leaders when they took that action, any more than the American navy boat commander had any authority at all to issue an 'apology' to the Iranian government on behalf of the U.S government. 

Under the U.S.  military code of conduct, the only statement that commander had the authority to make was to give his name, rank and serial number. I don't care if he had a gun to his head, he's in the military, ..... name rank and serial number, that's it, gunpoint notwithstanding.  Did that U.S. naval commander really think his Iranian counterpart would risk his command and miiltatry career by shooting and killing an American naval officer?  

That US commander is done, he caved, he surrendered his authority and embarrassed his country. I'm sure he will lose his command and possibly be demoted. Had he stood his ground and ordered his men to ignore the Iranian commander, and remain at attention, he and his men would have been hailed as heros.   

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dennis smith
link 01/17/16 03:11:28PM @dennis-smith:

Jerry - very well stated

So much for Obama's good friends, the Iranians.

(?!)

What's that supposed to mean? 

Iran is ... was, a potential nuclear threat in the Middle East, the most volatile region on the planet. Negotiating with them in an attempt to mitigate the threat they pose, to the world, the Middle East and particularly our close ally, Israel, does not mean they have become our 'good friend'.

As far as this incident is concerned, we don't know if the actions taken by the Iranian naval commander that decided to intercept our boats and mistreat our sailors, had the full authority and knowledge of the Iranian government leaders when they took that action, any more than the American navy boat commander had any authority at all to issue an 'apology' to the Iranian government on behalf of the U.S government. 

Under the U.S.  military code of conduct, the only statement that commander had the authority to make was to give his name, rank and serial number. I don't care if he had a gun to his head, he's in the military, ..... name rank and serial number, that's it, gunpoint notwithstanding.  Did that U.S. naval commander really think his Iranian counterpart would risk his command and miiltatry career by shooting and killing an American naval officer?  

That US commander is done, he caved, he surrendered his authority and embarrassed his country. I'm sure he will lose his command and possibly be demoted. Had he stood his ground and ordered his men to ignore the Iranian commander, and remain at attention, he and his men would have been hailed as heros.   


 


REPLY 

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Sean Treacy
link 01/13/16 06:20:24AM @s:

Another success for Obama! Since giving them everything they could possibly want in his big agreement Iran has:

1. Kept American hostages

2. Violated the UN Security council by test firing missiles

3. Announced the JPCOA is not legally binding on Iran.

4. Fired missiles near an American aircraft carrier. 

5. Captured American boats and sailors.

Big surprise that caving to Iran only emboldens their bad behavior. At this rate Iran will be nuking other countries before Obama even leaves office. 

 

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Kavika
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Lynne Adams
link 01/13/16 08:08:35AM @lynne-adams:

Thrilled our sailors have been released.  Wondering if those who hate "all things Obama" are thrilled as well or secretly hoped this would escalate to sate their desire for perceived Iran failure?

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jwc2blue
link 01/13/16 08:44:17AM @jwc2blue:

 Wondering if those who hate "all things Obama" are thrilled as well or secretly hoped this would escalate to sate their desire for perceived Iran failure?

Nope.

See below. It's being lied about and turned into a "major incident" by the fear-mongers.

I can't wait for someone to interview one of the sailors and they tell us how they were helped.

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Sean Treacy
link 01/13/16 09:07:25PM @s:

an't wait for someone to interview one of the sailors and they tell us how they were helped

Making a sailor appear in a hostage video and forcing a woman to wear a burqa is helping? 

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Spikegary
link 01/13/16 08:25:13AM @spikegary:

It's pretty obvious to anyone that has read any history that the Iranians cannot be trusted as honest partners in any negotiation, treaty or even discussion.  Lying to 'The Enemy' is not an issue because you don't have to be honest with infidel citizens of the great satan.  And the world has never held them to 'International Law' regarding their invading sovereign U.S. territory (the U.S. Embassy).  They got away with that and they continue to get away with whatever they want to do and the U.N. does nothing except make it's members rich off illicit oil trade.

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jwc2blue
link 01/13/16 08:46:53AM @jwc2blue:

It's pretty obvious to anyone that has read any history that

History is one thing. The reality of this is another.

There was nothing about this that justifies the massive right wing freakout, which just goes to show why they can't be trusted in a leadership position.

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Spikegary
link 01/13/16 10:44:56AM @spikegary:

Massive right wing freak out?  What in the Sam hell are you talking about?  Wipe the drool off your chin.  Nothing new that the Iranians can't be trusted. 

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jwc2blue
link 01/13/16 12:18:39PM @jwc2blue:

What in the Sam hell are you talking about?  Wipe the drool off your chin. 

http://thenewstalkers.com/community/discussion/19904#cm316145

I know you saw the Tom Cotton "evil Irann" rant, because you commented on it. The drool is on Cotton's chin, but that's left over salivation from the money Israel bribed him with.

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Spikegary
link 01/14/16 09:56:57AM @spikegary:

So, Tom Cotton = Massive Right Wing Freak Out.  Might want to think out the adjectives before throwing them around.

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Kavika
link 01/13/16 08:51:03AM @kavika:

Spike, history also tells us that the U.S. CIA and British overthrew the government of Iran in 1953 at the behest of BP Oil and installed the Shah.

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Lynne Adams
link 01/13/16 09:06:21AM @lynne-adams:

Spikegary,

I've no illusions regarding Iran, just detest the fear mongering and hatred so often associated with any event in the Middle East.  When success is viewed through hatred lenses it tends to skew the view.  Guess I'm just the eternal optimist :)

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Spikegary
link 01/13/16 10:49:27AM @spikegary:

This is not the first time the Iranians have seized U.S. Military in the last few years.  Always with what they say is justification.  I have lived in that part of the world and have a great appreciation for the Middle East Culture-the Iranians (and they are considered Persians, not Arabs by their neighbors) have proved time and time again, they are not trustworthy.  I value their honesty to be slightly above that idiot in North Korea, at least he's not running a government governed by religion.

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PJ
link 01/14/16 08:26:12AM @pj:

Very good points.  I would go further and say in my opinion NONE of the Countries in that region are trustworthy including Israel.  As someone who has spent much time in that area I'm sure you'd agree that America contributed to the instability by its involvement for a variety of reason and its been a clusterfu** ever since.  Would the Middle East have gradually reached the constant wars we see today without US and British and Russian involvement back in the 40s and 50's and so on.....who knows but probably yes.  Some forget that America was actually revered by the Middle East unlike the British but oil = money.  Need I say more..... 

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Sean Treacy
link 01/13/16 12:07:26PM @s:

It will be interesting to see how the ships were captured. They are apparently seaworthy, as the released  sailors sailed away in their own ships. Odd, if the Iranians were simply rescuing ships in distress.

 As Ben Shapiro said, When Triple A arrives to tow me, they don't slap my wife in a hijab and force me to put my hands on the back of my head"

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Sean Treacy
link 01/13/16 08:34:24PM @s:

Millitary has confirmed there was nothing mechanically wrong with the ships.

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Larry Hampton
link 01/13/16 09:22:47PM @larry-hampton:

There are a lot of questions unanswered here. 

If disabled, why did one not tow the other? Why was there no other help around? Was help called for?

Weird.

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ArkansasHermit
link 01/14/16 04:10:42AM @arkansashermit:

Millitary has confirmed there was nothing mechanically wrong with the ships.

 

Sean do you think the ships were on a spy mission?  Perhaps like our flight crew that China took & held for a couple of weeks back in 2001, (Hainan Island incident)?

Them durn Chinese, holding our boys and girls for propaganda purposes and making President Bush's State Department write out a non apology - apology before letting them go.

At least, (this time), the more moderate parts of the current Iranian Government won out and showed us that they can act better than some of the big boys on the world stage.

Just imagine how messy this could have gotten if we hadn't had the recently established lines of communication open with Iran.

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Sean Treacy
link 01/14/16 10:33:26AM @s:

ean do you think the ships were on a spy mission

My guess is they were probably straddling the international water mark to test Iranian response times or something like that.  I'm sure it's something they do pretty frequently, and they may have went in Iranian waters, either accidentally or on purpose.

hem durn Chinese, holding our boys and girls for propaganda purposes a

I don't remember the Chinese forcing the airmen to make propaganda videos admitting fault.  

I also don't remember Bush Or Colin Powell  thanking China for holding our airmen hostage and abusing them.  

The Bush State department pointedly did not apologize. They issued a statement of regret that the hot dogging   Chinese pilot who caused the collision lost his life. There's a massive difference between offering condolences and admitting fault.  

 the more moderate parts of the current Iranian Government won out and showed us that they can act better than some of the big boys on the world stage.

Publicly humiliating a naval officer to make a public confession that violates militarily standards of conduct and making an American sailor to don a burka is acceptable in your eyes?

Just imagine how messy this could have gotten if we hadn't had the recently established lines of communication open with Iran. 

We know how it would have played out because the exact same thing has happened to our allies. The difference is Iran never dared to commandeer an American ship before this week. In the past, when Iran has taken British sailors, they've done the exact same thing. They forced the British sailors to make propaganda videos, forced them to confess wrongs and recite apologies and eventually released them. Sound familiar?

Iran accomplished everything it wanted out of the incident, by acting the exact same way it has for the last 15 years and exploiting prisoners the exact same way it has in the past. Except now Iran feels free to do it to Americans. 

The difference is the British government actually got mad that their sailors were being mistreated and abused. They Brits didn't act like pledges getting their ass spanked in a fraternity house saying "Thank you sir, may I have another." The rightfully pissed off British government didn't thank Iran for forcing it's sailors to make groveling apology videos, but maybe you can show me where they did.

Besides emboldening Iranians to mistreat American sailors, how have these "new lines of communication" helped free the American hostages Iran already has? Have "these lines of communication" stopped Iran from violating UN restrictions on test firing ballistic missiles? Did they stop Iran from a firing a missile "provocatively  close" to an aircraft carrier?" Have they stopped Iran from supporting Assad in Syria or terrorist groups like Hezbollah? 

Iran is acting aggressively now more than ever, it just that these "lines of communication" require America to thank them for it. 

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ArkansasHermit
link 01/14/16 11:10:30AM @arkansashermit:

My guess is they were probably straddling the international water mark to test Iranian response times.  I'm sure it's something they do pretty frequently, and they may have went in Iranian waters, either accidentally or on purpose.

All reports I've read indicated our ships were in their waters Sean, have you seen different?

"Pentagon spokesman Peter Cook told The Associated Press that the Riverine boats were moving between Kuwait and Bahrain when the U.S. lost contact with them.

U.S. officials said that the incident happened near Farsi Island in the middle of the Gulf. They said some type of mechanical trouble with one of the boats caused them to drift into Iranian territorial waters near the island, and they were picked up by Iran."

 

All I'm approving of, in this particular situation, is how our current administration handled it more like our U-2 situation with the Soviets, the USS Liberty with the Israelis and the 2001 FUBAR with China instead of like another USS Maine, (Remember the Maine!), or the Gulf of Tonkin shit storm, just to gin up an unnecessary war with Iran as some in this country seem to want.

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PJ
link 01/14/16 12:11:32PM @pj:

I haven't read too much news this morning so this may be old new or no news - I thought I heard after the initial "engine trouble" explanation was offered there was also a suggestion that they ran out of gas.  That may have been walked back.

From what we currently know of the situation, I think the administration did the right thing in not being reactionary.  I'm looking forward to today's explanation. 

And finally.....why'd you have to go and bring the USS Maine :0(  Whenever I think of that incident I just see red.  I will never understand why the U.S. did NOTHING to avenge those that were murdered by Israel. 

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jwc2blue
link 01/14/16 12:22:34PM @jwc2blue:

I will never understand why the U.S. did NOTHING to avenge those that were murdered by Israel.

The short answer is; "Because it's Israel."

 

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Petey Coober
link 01/15/16 04:19:26AM @petey-coober:

The short answer is; "Because it's Israel."

The longer answer is it was an incident in a shooting war against multiple attackers .

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Larry Hampton
link 01/14/16 12:36:10PM @larry-hampton:

Arkansashermit, Pj, Jwc2blue,

...with respect and imho...

It's easy to forget that the Liberty incident happened in the middle of a very precarious military situation, and that Israel and the US have hashed this out many years ago with Israel giving a heart felt apology and, reimbursement however possible. It happened in the middle of a war; so, it's a stretch to really compare the Liberty with this incident. Nor can one compare the Liberty incident with the Chinese pilot, or the Russian U-2 situation either for the same reason. Shitty things happen in battle and must be interpreted differently for that reason alone.

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ArkansasHermit
link 01/15/16 04:07:43AM @arkansashermit:

so, it's a stretch to really compare the Liberty with this incident

Hey Larry.

From several of the responses, (and thumbs down:-), it looks like many mistook the reason I did make mention of the Liberty incident   My fault for not making myself more clear.

I was just trying to point out that it, and the other crises noted, were handled through diplomatic channels and not as red meat to be thrown toward the "Dogs of War", like the Maine and the USS Maddox incident were. 

I'll try to be clearer in the future.  (boyish grin)

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Larry Hampton
link 01/15/16 08:37:19AM @larry-hampton:

Thank you Arkansashermit for the clarification; I am to blame for misreading as well,  and I completely agree with what you are saying. Too many of our leaders see crisis situations as a political opportunities, rather than opportunities to serve America's interests.

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PJ
link 01/15/16 07:07:14AM @pj:

Thanks Larry.  I recognize that our political leaders had no issue accepting the apology from Israel for the murders of other American's family members just as I'm sure it was a great burden for Israel to give us back our own money.  The good thing for Israel is they recovered that temporary financial loss by receiving billions and billions of more dollars from us.  The families of those servicemen will never recover what they lost - generations.  I'm of the mind that Israel may not have initially realized they were bombing a US ship but even after realizing it was one of ours they continued to bomb it to get rid of the evidence rather than help our servicemen.  I'm sorry but I cannot speak rationally when it involves Israel. 

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Larry Hampton
link 01/15/16 08:40:40AM @larry-hampton:

Thank you Pj for your explanation. I understand that the subject of the Liberty is difficult for discussion regardless of which side of the argument one falls on. Be assured that though we may disagree, on my seeds all are more than welcome to fully express any opinion.

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PJ
link 01/15/16 10:05:07AM @pj:

Thank you for your indulgence.  I know I sound like a child throwing a temper tantrum - I'm so close to perfect but you've uncovered my flaw (hahahaha)

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Petey Coober
link 01/15/16 05:37:54PM @petey-coober:

PJ ,

I'm sorry but I cannot speak rationally when it involves Israel.

By all means explain how you arrived at that state of mind ...

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PJ
link 01/15/16 06:17:36PM @pj:

Why hello Petey – How’s your day going? 

Petey:  Hey PJ, my day’s going pretty good.  How’s your day?

Not bad.  It was busy at work today.  One of the members on my team had an issue come up at the end of the day so I was stuck at the office longer than I had hoped.  But I’m home now and I’m on the computer chatting with you.  Everything’s looking up.   

Israel:  I don’t know how to answer your question regarding Israel.  It’s just the way I feel.   There are certain situations that I’ve come to learn about that has tarnished how I view Israel. 

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Sean Treacy
link 01/14/16 12:48:54PM @s:

rts I've read indicated our ships were in their waters Sean, have you seen different?

If our government says they were in Iranian waters, I have no reason to believe they weren't,

e another USS Maine, (Remember the Maine!), or the Gulf of Tonkin shit storm, just to gin up an unnecessary war with Iran as some in this country seem to want. 

I don't think there was ever any danger of popular outbreak of war fever over this incident, unless Iran executed the sailors in cold blood. Iran has killed thousands of Americans directly or indirectly over the last 30 years without the public demanding war, so I don't think another hostage situation would ignite it. It might however, have lead to a public outcry that America should not give hundreds of millions of dollars to a state that just took another group of American hostages. Why we are giving hundreds of millions of dollars to a state that already has American hostages is beyond me.

Iran, and those in the Middle East, still follow honor culture, as opposed to the victimization culture that America has embraced. Power is honored, not the morality of power.  Bin Laden's motivation for 9/11 was to the weakness of America. As he said, "When people see a strong horse and a weak horse,by nature, they will like the strong horse"

As David Johns-Pryce said, "The capture of ten American naval personnel was a small incident in itself, but the Iranians played it perfectly. Television showed these men with their hands above their heads in the surrender position, their shoes off, squatting to feed more like animals than human beings, their weapons playthings. Exposed as defeated creatures of no consequence, they were peremptorily released." Not to mention the added bonus of  forcing an  apology from an American sailor in a propaganda video. It feeds the perception of America as the "weak horse" and that invites more of the same. 

Rolling over and thanking Iran for humiliating our navy personnel just rewards the bad behavior because they demonstrated to the world they can humiliate America without consequence (including sanctions etc..) Do you think Iran is more or less likely to seize an opportunity to capture American military personnel in the future after this? Iran's prestige increases, ours decreases, and that's a problem in the part of the world where that matters. 

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Perrie Halpern R.A.
link 01/14/16 01:09:56PM @perrie-halpern:

Rolling over and thanking Iran for humiliating our navy personnel just rewards the bad behavior because they demonstrated to the world they can humiliate America without consequence (including sanctions etc..) Do you think Iran is more or less likely to seize an opportunity to capture American military personnel in the future after this? Iran's prestige increases, ours decreases, and that's a problem in the part of the world where that matters. 

I am not sure how this makes sense Sean. Our government has said we were in Iranian waters. Should they have denied this? Would that have made it better? And since we have admitted that we were in Iranian waters, don't you think that Iran has the right to seize our ships? I am not saying that this isn't humiliation, but it is humiliation that we have brought upon ourselves. Frankly, I don't buy the whole story about why we were there in the first place. 

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jwc2blue
link 01/14/16 01:29:37PM @jwc2blue:

Whether or not that sailor was coerced to apologize is not the point here.

In civil society, if you do something wrong purposefully or accidentally, you apologize for it.

The American right calls such common courtesy "weak," "appeasement" or worse because they believe that Americans need not apologize to anyone.

This arrogance is one of the main reasons for the negative world view of America as a society.

As for how the sailors were treated, if an ship from any country except maybe Canada or Israel strayed into our waters we would interdict and board them in pretty much the same way.

Navy's have a protocol for situations such as this, and it's based on maintaining security and safety.

When I was in the South China Sea, we picked up a boatload of Vietnamese refugees. They were loaded aboard one at a time, women and children first. As the last of them were coming aboard, a few started chopping holes into their hull with axes to scuttle their craft so that we would not send them back to sea.

They were taken aboard under fully armed Marine guard, and slept on blankets on the deck of the aft mess hall for three days. They remained under guard until we arrived in port.

Anyone who does not understand this has either never been in the military, or just doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

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Sean Treacy
link 01/15/16 10:20:14AM @s:

hould they have denied this? 

No.

 

I am not saying that this isn't humiliation,

The humiliation is allowing them to mistreat out prisoners. and then thanking them for that. Kerry thanked the Iranians after Iran released a hostage video of the navy officer breaking the Armed Forces Code of Conduct. 

Iran violated the Geneva convention for prisoners of war by taking exhibiting captives for public humiliation. Whether the convention technically applies is irrelevant, there are certain baseline standards of conduct demanded internationally. Using prisoners as propaganda  violates those standards.

 

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Sean Treacy
link 01/15/16 10:39:57AM @s:

Whether or not that sailor was coerced to apologize is not the point here.

What? The mistreatment of Americans prisoners isn't  the point? That's insane. One can imagine you standing outside Ford Theatre telling Ms. Lincoln that her husbands death isn't the point,the poor quality of the play is. 

 

 

In civil society, if you do something wrong purposefully or accidentally, you apologize for it.

That's for the government to decide. Not for an American sailor to be coerced into violate the Armed Forces Code of Conduct. 

anada or Israel strayed into our waters we would interdict and board them in pretty much the same way.

Can you point out where America has coerced foreign sailors to appear in propaganda videos? Or where foreign sailors were forced to wear christian clothing? Is that we do?

Your desperation to create a false equivalence between Iran the US is simply disgusting. You ignore mistreatment of Americans as not relevant because it doesn't fit your need to equate Iran and America. Actually, you have some compulsion to make  Iran look good.

You have no problem attacking  your fellow  Americans as "arrogant" for not apologizing, but never once criticize Iran for forcing a sailor to violate his code of conduct and otherwise exploiting American sailors .to magnify Iran's propaganda victory.  You'd think what Iran does to Lesbians would give you some pause about blindly championing their cause, but I guess not.

As long it gives you an excuse attack right wing Americans, you'd gladly support the humiliation of American sailors by a country that  would execute you for your lifestyle. 

 

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jwc2blue
link 01/15/16 03:17:37PM @jwc2blue:

but never once criticize Iran for forcing a sailor to violate his code of conduct and otherwise exploiting American sailors

I have not seen a single thing that indicates that the sailor was "forced" to apologize. And of course you will be unable to provide any proof.

But I've seen any number of attempts from numbskulls to turn a molehill into a mountain.

You would think that people like you would have learned a lesson from Benghazi about trying to politicize things like this without the facts, but apparently you aren't capable of internalizing the simplest lesson. 

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Sean Treacy
link 01/15/16 06:02:14PM @s:

ve not seen a single thing that indicates that the sailor was "forced" to apologize.

So  in your world, it's likely a Naval Officer would voluntarily violate the Military Code of Conduct by making a propaganda film for Iran?  You really hold the Navy and its officers in low regard. 

 would think that people like you would have learned a lesson from Benghazi about trying to politicize things 

Funny, coming from the girl  who wrote the dumbest thing yet : I can't wait for someone to interview one of the sailors and they tell us how they were helped." Keep rooting for Iran to justify capturing a ship in violation of international law. 

 Says the same person who smears the American Navy by claiming they do the exact same thing as Iran (violate international law by capturing a sovereign ship and abuse prisoners for propaganda reasons). Says the same person who smears an American Navy officer by accusing him of violating the milliatary code of conduct by voluntarily appearing in a propaganda film for his captors without any evidence that he volunteered to do so without duress?

I, at least, believe an officer of the Navy would  act according to his duty. Shame you assume without evidence, that someone in the Navy would not. 

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jwc2blue
link 01/17/16 10:23:56AM @jwc2blue:

Shame you assume without evidence, t

When it comes to ignorant bloviation without evidence, you have no peer. Btw, typing more doesn't make your bullshit any less ridiculous.

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Sean Treacy
link 01/17/16 11:26:54AM @s:

Well, Let's be clear what you've established about yourself in this thread. I'll keep it as simple as possible, given your reading comprehension problems and your resulting inability to understand anything more complex than "See Jane run."

1.  You reflexively support Iran over America and will parrot whatever propaganda Iran feeds you (Americans are happy they were rescued!)

2.  You now nothing about maritime law and you'd rather smear the American Navy than take a second and learn something. What a vile thing  it was for to  you claim the Navy would violate international law by capturing a sovereign ship and exploit foreign sailors for propaganda purposes.

3. You automatically assume Navy sailors are willing to violate their oaths without any pressure exerted upon them. My assumption is a Navy officer has to be coerced into violating the Military Code of Conduct. I guess we've made our biases clear, I assume American sailors are honorable, you don't. 

 

 

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jwc2blue
link 01/17/16 11:54:07AM @jwc2blue:

You make a lot of claims about me. Let's get something straight. You don't know shit. So, keep flapping your piehole, boy. You may provide entertainment to your comparably foolish friends,  but I will continue to ignore you as the meaningless noise that you are.

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Sean Treacy
link 01/15/16 12:16:05PM @s:

anada or Israel strayed into our waters we would interdict and board them in pretty much the same wa

Of course we wouldn't. 

A few months ago 5 Chinese warships entered US territorial waters off Alaska and passed through unmolested, because international law allows warships (which have sovereign immunity) to make innocent passage through national waters. Innocent passage fro warships, with or without prior notice, is a maritime right under the UN Law of the Sea.  

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Sean Treacy
link 01/15/16 11:57:21AM @s:

Perrie,

r? And since we have admitted that we were in Iranian waters, don't you think that Iran has the right to seize our ships?

Absolutely not. Piracy is not legal. American warships are entitled to sovereign immunity. Capturing a ship entitled to sovereign immunity is illegal under international law whether the ship is in national or international waters. Proper protocol is for the Iranians to interdict the ship and direct them to leave Iranian waters.  If, and only if, the Americans fail to follow direction does Iran have the right to board a sovereign ship.

Here's a presentation by Captian Pete Pedrozo (ret) a professor of international law, to the US Naval War College:

http://www.judge.navy.mi.th/PDF/KM/UNCLOS%20Navy%20Sovereign%20Immunity.pdf

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Kavika
link 01/15/16 08:31:30AM @kavika:

Has everyone forgotten about Iran Air flight 655? It was a passenger plane that we shot down. It was in their air space and our ship was in their waters. The U.S. did not apologize for 8 years, and than it was a monetary settlement. 290 died when we shot it down.

I, in no way support Iran, but the 10 sailors were released within a day, unharmed.

What do you want to do, start a shooting war with Iran? If so find another excuse, and there are plenty of them out there. But this isn't one of them.

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Lynne Adams
link 01/15/16 09:09:29AM @lynne-adams:

I, in no way support Iran, but the 10 sailors were released within a day, unharmed.

Hear, hear!  While many may not like the visual of American sailors on their knees...thank God they're not dead!  The fact remains we were in Iranian waters, detained and released. 

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jwc2blue
link 01/15/16 09:31:23AM @jwc2blue:

 While many may not like the visual of American sailors on their knees...thank God they're not dead! 

People seem to forget that if an American citizen somehow got lost on an American military base (even here in the US) or in a secure/ off-limits area of a govt. facility, or an airport or seaport, or around a reservoir, even some privately owned buildings or installations they would be treated in exactly the same way.

But hey, anything to throw stones eh? 

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Sean Treacy
link 01/15/16 10:23:23AM @s:

Yeah, the only two possible outcomes were a shooting war and thanking Iran for mistreating Americans.

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Cerenkov
link 01/15/16 12:00:18PM @cerenkov:

Typical false partisan bifurcation. 

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jwc2blue
link 01/15/16 08:39:29AM @jwc2blue:

What do you want to do, start a shooting war with Iran?

The right will politicize anything they can to whip up their base into a frothy frenzy, facts be damned.

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Cerenkov
link 01/15/16 12:01:00PM @cerenkov:

And the left secretly liked images of US troops on their knees. 

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jwc2blue
link 01/15/16 12:19:34PM @jwc2blue:

And the left secretly liked images of US troops on their knees. 

What an asinine comment.

But, consider the source.

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Larry Hampton
link 01/15/16 12:27:59PM @larry-hampton:

Easy fellas; lets keep this cordial please.

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JohnRussell
link 01/15/16 12:38:07PM @johnrussell:

Let us assume for a second that we did not have bitter partisan politics in the US, and that we did not have a political party with a bunch of serial exaggerators as it's presidential candidates. 

Once upon a time a US vessel was captured by the North Koreans, and the crew was held for a lot longer than 16 hours. There were no accusations in 1968 that the administration was bowing and scraping to the "enemy" , and when the crew apologized most Americans did not hold it against either them or the President in office at the time. 

The "bitter" partisan politics, piled up through 8 years of right wing faux hysteria and misrepresentations of fact have led to this reaction, today, and the acceptance by some of this ridiculous reaction as "normal". 

The country needs to get it's head out of it's ass. 

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Cerenkov
link 01/15/16 12:46:02PM @cerenkov:

Are you joking? The Pueblo crew was tortured to get them to "apologize". The US mobilized multiple forces in response. We almost went to war. Your poorly chosen example proves almost the opposite. Embarrassing. 

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JohnRussell
link 01/15/16 12:58:07PM @johnrussell:

You are embarrassing. You are always embarrassing on this forum. It's sort of your calling card here. 

Was Lyndon Johnson and his administration blamed for the detainment of the Pueblo ?  Did anyone say that the US government was sucking up to the North Koreans ?  In that era, we did not have the insane political polarization that we see today. 

Iran is not an ally or friend of the US. Why wouldn't they be expected to try and use this incident for propaganda purposes ? Sane people don't give a fuck if they do. Again, they are not an ally or friend of this country. We have a "treaty " (nuclear ) like we have had previous treaties with ideological opponents in a "cold war". 

In a reality based assessment, the fact that our sailors were released very quickly (less than a day) after having gone through nothing but the "humiliation" of being shown submitting to apprehension , should be a reason for relief and thankfulness. What we get instead is the loony GOP candidates blowharding about how they would have dealt with the Iranians with a military response. 

It's crazy, but that is where we are at today. 

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JohnRussell
link 01/15/16 01:04:40PM @johnrussell:

"This is all why, when it became clear that the Iran incident had been defused quickly and diplomatically, first American TV and then the GOP presidential candidates focused rather on two entirely new scandals: that Iranian state media had photographed the US sailors kneeling while they were being detained, and that one of the sailors later called entering Iranian waters "a mistake" for which "we apologize."

This was treated as an unacceptable outrage not because it caused any actual harm to either the American sailors or to US interests — it did neither — but because it could potentially be perceived as a moment of awkward embarrassment for a few US sailors who had made a mistake. Or, worse, a show of minute deference toward the Iranians. Because the only appropriate posture toward Iran is one of constant belligerence, and because all US foreign policy is really just a means of demonstrating the president's personal toughness or lack thereof — remember that the world is just a schoolyard — this was thus a major and unforgivable violation.

This isn't just campaign silliness. It has consequences. As the Washington Post's Dan Drezner shows, "toughness" as a foreign policy strategy isn't just ridiculous. It's dangerous"

http://thenewstalkers.com/community/discussion/19965/#cm316803

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Sean Treacy
link 01/15/16 01:11:51PM @s:

that Iranian state media had photographed the US sailors kneeling while they were being detained, and that one of the sailors later called entering Iranian waters "a mistake" for which "we apologize

Go get that straw man! 

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Cerenkov
link 01/15/16 03:01:20PM @cerenkov:

You can spin all you want, John, but your analogy was asinine. And we have no easy way to prove that the media of that era was not critical of the administration. You have proved nothing except a weak grasp of history.

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1ofmany
link 01/17/16 01:47:43PM @1ofmany:

I don't particularly care for the Iranians using the incident as a (juvenile) photo op to show the American military on its knees but I can see why the ship was seized. Warships do have the right of innocent passage through another nation's territorial waters but, as I understand it, the term "passage" means moving continuously and expeditiously. These ships were not moving at all and the reason for it is unclear since the allegedly "disabled" ship later left under its own power. According to the article, the ships were stopped near a major Iranian naval base in a general location that has been used for intelligence gathering (i.e. spying). Spying is not "innocent." As near as I can tell, the US never notified Iran that its warships had crossed into Iranian territorial waters (under innocent passage or inadvertently floated in because they lost power). This is all taking place in the context of lifting sanctions, exchanging prisoners, and a bellicose Congress saber rattling against Iran as an enemy of the United States. If Israel had seized an Iranian ship under identical circumstances, nobody here would even raise an eyebrow to question Israel's actions . . . even if they put the Iranians on their knees or stretched them out on their bellies with their hands behind their heads. International law should be neutral and apply equally to all. So, if Israel would be right to do it, then Iran is too. 

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