'North Korea says ready to 'sink US aircraft carrier with single strike'

Latest reports are that an armada of the Vinson and its battle group of ships along with Japanese battleships are now heading for Korea. All of a sudden I feel too close for comfort.  For the last week I've been watching fighter jets flying around overhead, even a sonic boom last week. Today I took a couple of photos of them.

They sure as hell don't look like commercial flights to me.

No, that doesn't look like a passenger plane at all.

Great pictures, Buzz!  Thank you!  You are our eyes to the world!  

Here we go:

egyptindependent

'The Fat Un' is crazy enough to do it. and Trump just might provoke it.

'The Fat Un' is crazy enough to do it. and Trump just might provoke it.

I have zero doubt that they have he weapons to do it (though the retaliation would be HELL, especially if the weapons were delivered by aircraft. It would be a suicide mission). I also hav no doubt the Kim Jung Un is crazy enough to do it. And I have ZERO doubt that Trump is doing abso-fucking-lutely EVERYTHING he possibly can to to provoke a war with Un! EVERYTHING HE CAN BECAUSE A WAR WITH NORTH KOREA IS HIS BIGGEST WET DREAM RIGHT NOW!

Well, after the huge illegal kickbacks he is trying to get from finding a way to allow EXXON/Mobil to drill in Northern Russia. That is estimated to be at least a trillion dollar oil/gas field. And there is no doubt that Tillerson and Trump are going to get their well laundered share of billions of it. You don't think Putin got Trump to appoint Tillerson SofS for noting did you? I mean Trump had ever even heard Tillerson's name before he suddenly showed up and knocked Rudy right out o the door. Trump had decided it was going to be Rudy...and then "someone" suddenly recommended Tillerson and Tillerson was in, along with almost no one else hired at State to keep an eye on him or to report on anything he may be up to. He, along with Trump, is nothing more then a Russian state asset. Trump is America's first and hopefully last Russian President. Which is why he is not mine. As a loyal American and in accordance with the oath I took when I joined the USAF (and which is still in effect in my life because of my security clearances that are still in effect) I have an obligation to defend the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic and Trump and Tillerson fit both of those, along with Flynn and Kushner and more then a few others in this Russian administration in the White House.

I don't think that Kim is willing to wait for provocation, Buzz, nor would any provocation or lack of it matter.  What was the general direction that those aircraft were heading?  Also, did they have markings (Chinese or Russian)?  Since I doubt that they would head into NK to protect the Vinson from the NK air force and probably not to protect NK forces from US attack, it's quite probable that they're doing recon for their own plan to eliminate Kim.  Not the most elegant use of overwhelming force but effective.

A few days ago the Chinese were flying what would be our version of the ''warthog'' fighters along the NK border. These are mainly used it close air/ground combat with ground forces, especially tanks...

I have just discovered that there is a major air force base where I live in Chongqing, but that makes sense because it was the base for the Flying Tigers during WW2 - in fact about 9 years ago I visited the museum that was made at the home and office of the American General Stilwell.  The fact is that those planes were not flying over the past few months, but only started over the past week or so, and they appear to be practising, getting ready for actual conflict. So to answer your questions, Gene, they are Chinese, and staying in the area while practising, and they are damn busy most of the day.

Thanks guy, but it wasn't Gene.

Ooooops! I meant Rock.  Sorry.  -  Got to learn to stick to the pseudonyms.

I posted an article two days ago where the Russians are moving tanks and troops to the shared border with North Korea. (11 miles).

It's getting very tense right now. Jong Un yesterday did more of his sabre rattling with Australia.

OK so I am confused. Are the Chinese supporting N. Korea, or getting ready to take him out? Has there been any word from Beijing? 

China doesn't want NK with nuclear weapons and are very concerned of the possible first strike by the US.

They are protecting their border with NK because of the possibility of NK collapsing and China would be faced with hundreds of thousands of refugees from NK.

NK has been used over the years as a buffer zone  by both China , and the old soviet union  much like the soviets did in eastern Europe during the cold war,  the issue in NK is politics in both their main suppliers/ allies has changed over the last 60 years, and the leadership in NK is a family dynasty, passed within one family since NK was created, but unlike the English royalty or Japanese royalty , where the positions are more ceremonial , in NK the "royalty actually dictates what the government does.

i see the problem and have seen it for a few years is as long as the ruler stays within parameters and is only a minor pest , they could stay in power, but with changing world politics , that line becomes thinner and thinner , what Uns father or grandfather could get away with  back in the day has changed drastically because of world politics , and if Un becomes a threat to his allies security , i really wouldn't doubt , they could turn on him.

 Its a dangerous game and one i don't think any of the major world powers ( NK isn't one of them) desire to really play . but we have to wait and see , and in reality , the Korean conflict is only in a state of cease fire  no armistice has ever been signed so legally the war is still going on even if shots are not being fired.

and that's the best i can explain it from my simple point of view.

Mark,

China has always considered NK a buffer zone to their ''soft underbelly''...We learned that during the Korean War...They were quite clear in telling the US/UN do not enter NK or we will attack. We did and so did they.

A lesson learned I hope.

The grandfather was a hero in NK. He was a fighter against the Japanese during WWII. Therefore had credibility with the NK people. I don't think that the same can be said of his son and grandson. They are controlling simply by fear.

If, IMO, NK does anything to cross the line with China, China will serve their own interests and that would be to take out Un.

I was reading a book about the battle for Okinawa in World War Two. ( Great book by the way - The Ultimate Battle by Bill Sloan)   One of the points the author makes in the beginning is that the battle for Okinawa was one of the last large scale battles between land forces in human history. About 200,000 American troops fought against roughly 125,000 Japanese troops on an island roughly the size of the city of Jacksonville, Florida. 

There aren't going to be any more major land wars or battles. They are in the history books. Any major land battle involving hundreds of thousands of troops , or even much smaller numbers of troops, would quickly escalate into a nuclear exchange.  I think it is irresponsible for any country to talk about their borders as if they are expecting an invasion. 

What a nightmare!  I hope this all simmers down again, but I bet it won't, thanks to Kim Jung, who seems to be unusually belligerent.  I bet our Korean War veterans are heart sick.

So, if you are a Korean War Veteran, my heart goes out to you--

 I hope this all simmers down again, but I bet it won't

Simmering down is probably not the best thing Dowser.  If it does, all we have is the status quo, which just puts off the problem until it gets REALLY big.  Within a relatively short time Kim is going to have long range ICBM's that can be mated with nuclear warheads.  That extends the range of the attack he almost certainly will make from the countries directly around him to as far as the West coast of the United States.  You can imagine what will happen to most of the Korean peninsula if he actually hits the California coast, whether the Chinese or the South Koreans like it or not.  Since I'm pretty sure that Mr. Xi can imagine it, he is likely to take some pretty drastic action while he can still control the extent of the action.  That's probably really bad news for Kim personally but, I think that President Xi would rather have a dead NK leader than a belt of radioactive desert for a buffer zone.

That's probably really bad news for Kim personally but, I think that President Xi would rather have a dead NK leader than a belt of radioactive desert for a buffer zone.

That's how I believe it's going to end, if D.C. stays out of it long enough for it to happen. If not then we are in for one hell of a lot bloodshed and unnecessary wasted death.

"President Xi would rather have a dead NK leader than a belt of radioactive desert for a buffer zone."

that and since I am not exactly sure , but know the weather patterns don't exactly blow from west to east, the potential fall out zone from air currents could make everyone in the region , very nervous.

Russia made a statement a few days ago that a nuclear attack on NK and the fall out would reach Vladivostk in two hours. Valdivostk is a major city in eastern Russia with a population of 600,000 and a major military base for the Russians.

Do you think that Russian would stand by if fall out reach a major city in Russia...No frickin way.

The same goes for China.

I saw a tweet a few minutes ago that indicated that a Fox News show today had a panel that discussed the viability of a pre-emptive first strike on N Korea with nuclear weapons. Knowing how much Trump watches and takes advice from Fox news, that is scary. 

I saw a tweet a few minutes ago that indicated that a Fox News show today had a panel that discussed the viability of a pre-emptive first strike on N Korea with nuclear weapons.

See this is what these idiots do not understand abut nuclear weapons forces. A so-called pre-emptive nuclear strike is like the insanity of the idea of a "limited nuclear exchange". There is no such animal! Once you start firing one at another country, any country, all hell breaks lose and every missile door on every sub and silo opens up and death rains down on everyone and from every nation that has them. Fire one in a war these days and there is no stopping it. No one can stop it. It's like pulling a card out of the bottom of a house of cards and expecting it to still stand. It just does not work that way.

Do you think that Russian would stand by if fall out reach a major city in Russia...No frickin way.

The same goes for China.

I think their response would be both swift and really, really, really bad for us and the rest of the world for what it could trigger us to do back. I think that most people, even or especially politicians, have even the slightest idea of how much power we and they still have, even after we have cut back. We could easily destroy every living thing on this planet down to the last bacteria and still have many nukes left over. Launch one at someone and you make it almost impossible for there NOT to be many more fired from someone else.

Up until now I thought I was pretty safe in China, and had been making jokes about whether you Americans had prepared your fallout shelters. Now that's coming back to bite me.

If the East and the West, especially if the East includes China and the West includes our allies in Europe, have a full exchange (or close), then there will be a very few places in the world where some people can survive, but it won't be for very long and even the people who have their home made bomb shelters will end up wishing the explosions had killed them. When I was stationed at Grand Forks AFB I always took a great deal of comfort and peace in knowing that if we ever launched our missiles then that meant the Soviet ones were already on the way and in 10 minutes or less I would become vapor. I would feel nothing and there would be nothing left of me. No suffering like the survivors who would go through before they died too.

Not everyone dies quickly, Randy. Think of the survivors of Nagaxaki and Hiroshima. I assume you must have in your case meant that where you were would have suffered a direct hit.

Oh yes, we already knew we were a target. At that time we knew that the area from North of the base near the Canadian border, the base and South of the base by about 60 miles had at least 20 missiles (that we were aware of) aimed at it, to destroy the base and as many silos and Launch Control Facilities as possible so all would be nearly forever useless for anything, let alone anything military. It was something we all understood (or at least all of us in the Missile Wing were made aware of it), but didn't really think about or talk about it. Like I've said in other articles I believe, we used to have a poster on the wall in our computer center that was supposedly a list of things to do in case of a nuclear attack. The first few things on the list made some sort of sense like gathering food, getting water, making sure you have medical and first aid supplies, etc., but the last one on the list said to sit down, bend over forward, put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. Sort of gallows humor. LOL.

Up until now I thought I was pretty safe in China,

Buzz,

William Manchester once wrote about a man in Australia before WWII who could see the war coming.  He didn't want any part of it, either the war or living in a country at war.  He thought carefully about where the war was likely to be and who was going to be involved.  He crossed Europe off immediately since there certainly would be war there.  North America was likely to be in it and he would be too likely to be drafted to go off and fight; same with Australia.  China and India were likely to be major theaters since the Japanese were already fighting in much of that area.  South America had too much unrest and the facilities weren't very good anyway.

He searched and searched and finally found the one place in the world where he could stay out of armies, which had reasonably good facilities, and had no apparent tactical value to anyone nor produced any strategic materials that anyone would try to capture.  In late 1939, he packed up all his worldly goods and moved to his choice; the small, out of the way, Pacific island of Guadalcanal.

Don't sweat it.  Almost certainly there won't be a nuclear war.  There might be a Chinese conventional attack on NK, with or without US and Russian help, but, once Kim is dead, the rest will be just mopping up.  Kim might think he's tough but, without him there to give the orders, his army chiefs are smarter than that.  They are well aware that, no matter how big their army, they can't stand against the Chinese Army.  As far as the artillery batteries pointed at Seoul, they would be totally useless.  They could only serve as a threat against US action.  The Chinese government couldn't care less what happened to Seoul.  Since they would be useless as a threat, why fire them off and make even more people angry.  The people running the Immun Gun (NK Army) don't share Kim's megalomania and they're not stupid.

In late 1939, he packed up all his worldly goods and moved to his choice; the small, out of the way, Pacific island of Guadalcanal.

They are well aware that, no matter how big their army, they can't stand against the Chinese Army.

And that their economy, such as it is, could not exist without China and in fact might get a lot better with Kim gone.

Do you think that Russian would stand by if fall out reach a major city in Russia...No frickin way.

The same goes for China.

What I think is that both Russia and China will go to very great lengths to see that it doesn't happen that way.  They might even contemplate a very quick regime change in NK.  If that means a shortened life for Kim, that's just too damned bad for Kim.  I think they'd rather take the small step of killing Kim immediately than wait to see what would happen if they interfered with us.  If they can do it, it's much less scary to them to cooperate with us than to oppose us.  Meanwhile, just to keep them in a cooperative mood, Trump keeps the Kim pot boiling.  The more Kim seems like a madman, the easier their decision to have him killed.  That would be a very good thing for us.  We end up with Kim gone and a friendly NK and they are the ones with dirty hands.  Also, of course, they are the ones with assets in the region who can do the job quickly.

I'm sure you're right-- I just hope something really bad doesn't happen!

I think what it is going to come down to is who will trip the nuclear trigger here , US forces , or the NK , that is who will most likely bring down the wrath of the neighboring countries . a pre emptive strike could be anything , be it nuclear or non nuclear conventional weapons , problem I see is the carrier  has a reactor and is nuclear powered , if it is sunk depending on where it goes down , it could affect other interests such as fishing which many in the area depend on , not a smart idea to sink a nuclear powered carrier in your own pantry so to speak , and Un even thinking of it shows he isn't playing with a full deck either.

I have a feeling the if Un did anything preemptive, that China would do a lot more then spank him. I have a feeling he would disappear and never be heard from again.

Xi asked today that all sides basically calm the hell down and shut the fuck up (not an exact quote ), while they are working on the problem. Good advice. I hope ALL sides take it. Especially the shutting up part because it is only making it more difficult and besides, from both sides it sounds like kindergartners yelling at each other on the playground fighting about toys in a sandbox. Both Un and Trump need to grow the fuck up.

Mark,

You seem to be pretty sure that the carrier would be sunk.  Highly unlikely to happen.  Everything in Kim's Air Force and Navy could be thrown at that carrier group and, if they were on a war alert, none of it would get closer than fifty miles.  A modern carrier group like that one has enough firepower to fight and win an entire war with a country the size of North Korea all by itself.

Xi asked today that all sides basically calm the hell down and shut the fuck up

Of course Xi wants that.  That way he's not forced to make the hard decision.  Instead things will quiet down and any effective action will be talked to death, our deaths because, no matter what promises he makes, Kim isn't going to stop trying to get ICBM nukes until he's dead.  Our objective should be to push President Xi until he's forced to make the hard decision represented by this question, "If China is forced to fight someone, as it will be, who would you rather fight; North Korea or the United States?"  Napoleon once said that "God is on the side of the heaviest artillery".  Once the choice is forced on him, I rather think that President Xi would be too.

TTGA, I'm not all that sure , but Billy Mitchell risked court marshal proving that air power could sink a capital ship of the line , Now NK does have missles , how good they actually are in the real world of warfare remains to be seen and a carrier group has all sorts of defensive preparations , but like the titanic which was suppose to have all the modern up to date safety feature  and was supposedly unsinkable , still got sunk by a big block of ice.

 a carrier is a pretty big target , and I never discount just plain old dumb luck, so the possibility , even as remote as it could be , is still there.

China doesn't want a nuclear NK. It also doesn't want to economically damage NK, engage in regime change, or have the US sitting on its border. China will act in its own interest not ours and has repeatedly said that the best way to handle NK is by restarting the six party talks, not the Korean War.

Trying to bully Kim into giving up the pursuit of nuclear weapons is just plain stupid because it has the opposite effect of pushing him to acquire the weapons so he can't be bullied. Most of the analysis I've seen is based on an assumption that Trump is maneuvering China into helping him rather than the other way around. It's quite possible that China is ingratiating itself with Trump to slow him down and get him to listen to reason. If China is the key, then maybe Trump should try listening to what they have to say instead of telling them what to do. There's more to diplomacy than swinging a big stick. 

China doesn't want a nuclear NK. It also doesn't want to economically damage NK, engage in regime change, or have the US sitting on its border.

I'm sure that they don't, but those are the only choices they have to pick from, unless they want to start WWIII with us.

best way to handle NK is by restarting the six party talks, not the Korean War.

Not among the choices.  All the six party talks would do is delay the problem until it becomes a bigger problem in the few years that they will talk.  The talks are worthless because Kim wouldn't think of actually keeping any inconvenient promises he makes under pressure.  The time to stop him is now, while he's still small enough to stop.

Trying to bully Kim into giving up the pursuit of nuclear weapons is just plain stupid because it has the opposite effect of pushing him to acquire the weapons so he can't be bullied.

Say what???  Who said anything about bullying anybody?  He's proven himself to be a dangerous enemy.  Always remember that, if you desire peace, there is no one as peaceful as a dead enemy.

Not among the choices.  All the six party talks would do is delay the problem until it becomes a bigger problem in the few years that they will talk.  The talks are worthless because Kim wouldn't think of actually keeping any inconvenient promises he makes under pressure.  The time to stop him is now, while he's still small enough to stop.

War is not an option either so talking will end up being the only viable alternative.

Besides, the failure of the Six Party Talks was Kim Jung Un's failure to take them seriously enough. However with a figurative (or even literal) gun pointed to his head by China, he may be more inclined to come o an agreement.

Say what???  Who said anything about bullying anybody?  He's proven himself to be a dangerous enemy.

Bullying him in the sense of Trump saying ignorant things like we have an "armada"(who SAYS that anymore? I mean what war novels has he been reading?) headed his way and extremely powerful submarines (like he would know and besides YOU NEVER TELL ANY ENEMY OR ANYONE ELSE WHERE YOUR SUBS ARE! IT DEFEATS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF HAVING THEM!) just off his coast. (damn he is stupid sometimes (most of the time)) And Pence and Tillerson saying moronic things like "If China doesn't take care of him, we will!" That's what Xi meant when he called and said to Trump that he hopes everyone shows some restraint and don't make things worse. He is asking Trump to shut the fuck up and have him tell his people to shut the fuck up too because they are NOT helping by flapping their mouths like they have been. Unless of course they WANT a war? Of course Trump and Pence and Tillerson DO want a war with Korea, so there is no telling if he'll listen to commonsense. He's as big of a spoiled 5 year old as Un is and even more dangerous to the rest of the world....

He is asking Trump to shut the fuck up and have him tell his people to shut the fuck up too because they are NOT helping by flapping their mouths like they have been.

Actually they ARE helping by keeping Kim stirred up.  That will force Xi to get rid of Kim, without using a major amount of force on North Korea itself (a change in leadership to someone sane is not a major problem like a war would be).  They are essentially giving Xi a choice between removing Kim or having a war.  Being sensible, he is most likely to choose the lesser of these choices.

They are most certainly NOT helping Xi do what he really wants to do, which is to start up 6 party talks or multilateral talks or two party talks, basically anything that involves talking instead of action.  If he is able to choose that, he is well aware that the US will settle down, Kim will settle down and everybody will go back to sleep and nothing at all will happen to change the basic situation until Kim is ready, in four or five years, to land a surprise strike with his newly developed nuclear tipped ICBM's. That is what will happen because Kim is insane and will not, for any reason, abide by any deal that might be made at any talks that take place.

They are essentially giving Xi a choice between removing Kim or having a war.  Being sensible, he is most likely to choose the lesser of these choices.

And Xi is essentially telling Trump that China will not engage in or support the destabilization of NK nor stand by while Trump does it so the most sensible option is restarting the six party talks. 

And Xi is essentially telling Trump that China will not engage in or support the destabilization of NK nor stand by while Trump does it

If that's what he told Trump, that means that he chose war.  Perhaps he figures that we don't really mean it.  After all, it's been a long time since we taught the world (at Hiroshima) what we were willing to do in order to win.

so the most sensible option is restarting the six party talks.

Which means getting nuked within the next four or five years.  Is that the sensible option you're talking about?  Because that's what will happen if Kim is not removed.

The attitude that we must be very very careful to not rock the boat and make Xi unhappy with us was called by General Patton "Taking counsel of your fears".  He believed that it was a sure fire method of losing a war.

And Xi is essentially telling Trump that China will not engage in or support the destabilization of NK nor stand by while Trump does it

If that's what he told Trump, that means that he chose war.  Perhaps he figures that we don't really mean it.  After all, it's been a long time since we taught the world (at Hiroshima) what we were willing to do in order to win.

We had a nuke and Japan didn't so we bombed them with impunity. China has nukes just like we do so they can drop them on us just like we can on them. I don't think our mutual destruction is a sensible solution to the problem. 

so the most sensible option is restarting the six party talks.

Which means getting nuked within the next four or five years.  Is that the sensible option you're talking about?  Because that's what will happen if Kim is not removed.

No but getting nuked sooner doesn't work for me either. 

The attitude that we must be very very careful to not rock the boat and make Xi unhappy with us was called by General Patton "Taking counsel of your fears".  He believed that it was a sure fire method of losing a war.

We aren't at war and this isn't World War II. There is no reason to throw caution to the wind like madmen and rush to our deaths in a nuclear exchange. 

Ttga, of course China or Russia would rather fight NK than us. But who would we rather fight, NK China or Russia. None is a good option, but attacking NK to me seems to be the lead into a major war in Asia.

Letting China take the lead on this situation is far better than any other alternative.

Trump can't ignore China and China wants a peaceful resolution through restarting the six party talks. There can be no assault on NK without the agreement of China and China will never agree to it because conflict is against China's interests.

I would tend to agree there that china would like a peaceful solution one, but I have a nagging feeling  that china is cautiously weighing the cost of that peaceful agreement and how long it might possably last, versus getting rid of a festering thorn that is screaming to be plucked out of its side, thus is politics, and politics forever are changing .

 NK already is a member of the nuclear weapons club, so them denying NK nukes is kind of late , getting NK to give up those weapons is something different , but remembering my history and the sole desire of the NK doctrine of forced reunification under the NK government of the entire land mass that makes up both  Korea's cannot be forgotten.

I was pretty much going to answer the same way Mark.  We can't fight NK without China and Russia getting involved against us.  China, however, can fight NK or have Kim killed, and all we or the Russians would do is stand back and applaud.  Those two choices, however, to fight NK or to stand out of our way while we do so, must be the only two choices that Xi is allowed to have.  Otherwise, he will choose one that involves stalling.  Further stalling cannot be allowed.

I'll refer to an earlier comment that I made..

A few days ago I read a Chinese military blog. They stated quite clearly that if NK crossed China's bottom line that would be the end of NK. It was up only a day and they the blog disappeared.

What does it mean. I am guessing that there is a ''line in the sand'' with China when it comes to NK. If they do cross that line (whatever it is) it will be the end of NK.

It would be nice to be able to authenticate the blog and what is exactly the ''bottom line'' with China.

I do hope that you're right and the story is correct.  I too would like to find out just what the bottom line is, so that we could push Kim past it.  I suspect that an attempted attack on the carrier battle group would do it.

''I suspect that an attempted attack on the carrier battle group would do it.''

Without a doubt it would Ttga.

Just found this that references the op-ed I was talking about.

freerepublic

IMO the posting of that article was deliberate as a warning to "The Fat Un", even though it was quickly retracted.  This line at the end:

"In other words, China may be just waiting for Trump to "decapitate" the North Korean regime, to pounce and immediately fill the power vacuum."

That is exactly the opinion of my American expat friend that I stated in one of my original comments (on another similar article) on this very topic.

freerepublic

Great article Kavika. Thanks.

I would tend to agree there that china would like a peaceful solution one, but I have a nagging feeling  that china is cautiously weighing the cost of that peaceful agreement and how long it might possably last, versus getting rid of a festering thorn that is screaming to be plucked out of its side, thus is politics, and politics forever are changing.

I don't think China has any more intention of removing Kim than we do of removing Netanyahu. China wants Trump to stop making the situation worse by saber rattling. Trump wont go to war against NK and, if he did, China would immediately support NK as it did in the Korean War and for the same reason. A war would result in a stalemate, after killing hundreds of thousands of people, and we'd be right where we started. 

IMO that article referred to by Kavika that was published was not for any reason but a deliberately posted article by the Chinese government to influence "The Fat Un".  The government-controlled newspaper it was published in does not publish anything the government does not want to see in it.

The NK regime during the Korean War was not controlled by a maniac as the regime is now. The threat of nuclear fallout over China did not exist then. China has presently been a proponent and has been abiding with the UN resolutions and sanctions against NK. I doubt that China would act the same now as it did during the Korean War.

IMO that article referred to by Kavika that was published was not for any reason but a deliberately posted article by the Chinese government to influence "The Fat Un".  The government-controlled newspaper it was published in does not publish anything the government does not want to see in it.

I doubt China needs to rely on the equivalent of a smoke signal to express concern to Kim. Any message they have for Kim can be easily conveyed through diplomatic channels. 

The NK regime during the Korean War was not controlled by a maniac as the regime is now. The threat of nuclear fallout over China did not exist then. China has presently been a proponent and has been abiding with the UN resolutions and sanctions against NK. I doubt that China would act the same now as it did during the Korean War.

China has been dragging its feet on sanctions until recently and their interest is in keeping NK stable rather than destabilizing it. As much as China may dislike Kim, they have repeatedly said that they do not want a conflict and have been just as clear now as they were in the Korean War that they don't want a US presence on their border. So I think, if pressed, China will act as it did in the Korean War and stop US interference by force if necessary. China would like things not to get to that point and has urged restarting the six party talks as opposed to reigniting the Korean War.

So I think, if pressed, China will act as it did in the Korean War and stop US interference by force if necessary.

I disagree. I think that if pressed China would find a way to move Kim Jung Un out of power, rather then confront the U.S. militarily in any manner, which under the current "leadership" would certainly mean a war on the Korean Peninsula or worse a war between China and America. I believe that Un and Trump are basically both of the same temperament and China would never risk a conflict with the U.S. that could turn nuclear very very quickly.

Their ultimate goal is no war there and confronting the U.S. would guarantee one. If the U.S. and North Korea do go to war not only would it be horrible for both sides but China would either have to engage in a shooting war with the U.S. as we moved further North like in the 1950's (but this is certainly not the 1950's!), which would definitely turn nuclear, or they would have to accept huge numbers of refugees that they don't want to take care of and accept the idea the idea of an American backed united Korea right on their Eastern border. Something they would never tolerate.

I disagree. I think that if pressed China would find a way to move Kim Jung Un out of power, rather then confront the U.S. militarily in any manner, which under the current "leadership" would certainly mean a war on the Korean Peninsula or worse a war between China and America. I believe that Un and Trump are basically both of the same temperament and China would never risk a conflict with the U.S. that could turn nuclear very very quickly.

A game of nuclear chicken works both ways and I don't want to play. I think restarting the talks makes more sense so I agree with China. 

Oh I agree with them getting talks restarted too. I just think that, if talks fail, it'll be them that stops the North and not the U.S. (I hope).

I think China has an interest in making the talks succeed. They don't want that nut to have nuclear weapons mounted on ICBMs but solving the problem through conflict is simply not in China's interest. 

Or ours. But hell, I don't want OUR nut having them either! Seriously, I am just glad we do have a Defense Secretary, a Joint Chiefs and hopefully an intelligent well thinking General down the chain who gives the final orders willing to risk his or her career by saying "No" if they are not certain.

I think this is reflective of how Trump approaches everything. In business, he routinely threatens people with lawsuits to see if they'll fold. He says that he never settles lawsuits himself but he does. This is a variation on the same theme. If a bluff or threat works, then he's good to go. If it doesn't, then he'll consider something else. He's president now, in part, because he doesn't listen to conventional wisdom but the consequences of not listening in politics and business are vastly different from the consequences of triggering a nuclear conflict. Oh well, humanity had a good run and we really couldn't expect to be around forever. 

A 3 way partnership of China, Russia and America would make sense.  And let's remember that no one was bothering Kim, but suddenly he and his government were throwing out warnings to the world.  What exactly did Australia and New Zealand do?  Nothing, but now this maniac is threatening them also.  I believe it would be in the best interest of Russia and China to do away with Kim and his government and replace it with their own, or allow a re-unification with the south-which would be rewarding in many ways for both north and south Korea.

I believe it would be in the best interest of Russia and China to do away with Kim and his government and replace it with their own, or allow a re-unification with the south-which would be rewarding in many ways for both north and south Korea.

Both Russia and China will have a problem with regime change when they have strongly opposed regime change (when we do i) as a violation of international law. And I think there's a zero chance of either Russia or China agreeing to essentially expand South Korea (a US ally) to the Russian and Chinese borders. Russia and China have said that the only viable alternative is to restart the six party talks. I think they're right. 

But South Korea is a peaceful country, and a loose cannon like Kim is a danger to everyone, including China and Russia-and making happy with South Korea (or a restored unified Korea) would be a viable trading partner for the Chinese.  Buffer zones are good for infantry type wars, but as someone 4else said, we're pretty much done with them now.  SO, the need for buffer zones is not the big deal it once was, especially as China has come into their own.

But South Korea is a peaceful country, and a loose cannon like Kim is a danger to everyone, including China and Russia-and making happy with South Korea (or a restored unified Korea) would be a viable trading partner for the Chinese.

From the perspective of Russia and China, the peaceful nature of South Korea is irrelevant. We see Russia and China as geopolitical adversaries and potentially countries with whom we could, one day, be at war. They see us the same way. South Korea is an ally of the US and, as such, having South Korea extend up to their borders would be completely unacceptable. They will never agree to having a hostile country or the ally of a hostile country on their border, especially since trading doesn't require sharing a border.

Buffer zones are good for infantry type wars, but as someone 4else said, we're pretty much done with them now.  SO, the need for buffer zones is not the big deal it once was, especially as China has come into their own.

I have no idea why anybody thinks that's true. No war has ever been won from the air; it requires ground forces. We deployed 500,000 troops to protect Saudi Arabia in Desert Shield and at least 125,000 troops to topple the Iraqi government in Desert Storm. North Korea is heavily armed and defended by 700,000 active military and 4 million reservists. It's obviously vastly more difficult to fight our way through North Korea than it is to attack directly from launch points in a friendly nation located on the Chinese border. 

Spike, the idea of air power or sea power winning a war isn't realistic. The Marines have 175,000 personal the army has divisions of Infantry, armor, and artillery, additionally  there is the National Guard units.

It is always the ground troops that win the war. The Infantrymen/Marine is called the ''ultimate weapon'' for a reason.

In Vietnam we bombed and bombed, but it was the Infantryman/Marine that did the fighting to hold or gain ground.

The same can be said of Iraq, both times.

Of course air power and sea power are powerful weapons much needed, but in the end it's the grunt that goes in and ends it all.

In 1950 MacArthur could not imagine that China would enter the war against the most powerful country on earth. Fresh from winning WWII and the destruction of Japan with atomic bombs, he was confident that China would not be foolish enough to strike against the U.S.

He was wrong, very wrong.

MacArthur wanted to use atomic weapons on China.

If I remember correctly Mao's response was something like this, ''You kill a million Chinese, we have millions more''.

2500 years ago Sun Tzu, The Art of War was written. It is as relevant today as it was then.

''Know your enemy''.

And now China is a nuclear super power itself they can do the killing of a millions of people themselves too.

Yes, this isn't China of the 1950's....China is a global power, both economically and militarily.

It's best to keep that in mind.

I was just thinking of that kav, , and something else I have been pondering about the area , japan , SK, China , and that part of Russia , have all moved on and changed dramatically , NK is basically a welfare state from what I have read , reports from US military personel saying if looking from the DMZ south , its all lit up and modern , look north and its dark , no lights , some Chinese based news I have read states the same thing , the Chinese side of the border is lit up while NK side there is sporatic to no lighting. add into that it is not NK that have closed their borders to their people , with permits , but the Chinese themselves that limits how many visas they allow to NK citizens so they don't over stay .

I can very feasibly see the Chinese and the US having already come to an agreement , to remove Un and some of the more radical and troublesome generals in the cabinet of NK , allowing for both the south and the north to begin talks about a re-unificartion under and acceptable form of government to all involved , in exchange for removal of US military forces, the only real reason they are there is the threats of the north and its agression  , allowing the  koreas to become  somewhat like hong kong or Singapore and become an international way station of sorts.

 Now something like that , removes the threats of the Kim dynasty which has proven to be detrimental to everyone , save the US military funds , guarantee that they themselves will not be over ran with undesirable refugees , and once all that is done remove a very large Nuclear threat from the region  that no one except the current NK regime desires to use as a threat to all its neighbors. as well as bringing the people in Nk out of the darkness of 60-70 years ago into the modern world where they belong and deserve to be active and contributing members .

reports from US military personel saying if looking from the DMZ south , its all lit up and modern , look north and its dark , no lights , some Chinese based news I have read states the same thing , the Chinese side of the border is lit up while NK side there is sporatic to no lighting.

This is from 2014 from the National Geographic, but I doubt if it's improved any since then.

what I posted above might seem to some as a flight of fancy , but , and yes I admit it is a very LARGE but ( stop looking at mine......)  is it really outside the realm of possibility if the major power players( China , US and Russia) in the situation had finally said enough is enough and stability needs to be gotten?

 AND if such comes about , could it not also be used as a template in other trouble spots , if a consortium of sorts be formed?

I've said before, that an Army marches on their stomach-and the North has very little food.  I'm not sure they have much in the way of sustainability.....I think if China removes Kim, that that house of cards he and his family have built will come tumbling down.

I've seen that photo before Randy. Amazing isn't it. Just a black hole where North Korea is..

An interesting scenario Mark, it's possible that all three will just get fed up with NK and look at Un as a liability that needs to be removed.

Let's hope that some thing along this line takes place.

You like that one huh kav? I have another one I have been pondering today , lets see how feasible it sounds .

a few weeks ago trump ordered missile strikes into Syria , damage done was debatable , it supposedly caused some tension between the US and Russia if the media is to be believed after supposedly both parties were in bed with one another over the election.

 now think about the campaign rhetoric and tensions of pulling out of TPP and the trade deficit with china  and the tensions there , and the sudden thawing  after a face to face by both nations leaders.

 Now lets look at another interesting to say the least development , Both china ( according to buzzs reports) , and Russia  according to the media have both been having military activity in areas that they have not had in years , like around buzzs locale and the Russians flying along the Alaskan coastline, some would say its a reaction to trump , some might think it is practice away from an area of potential conflict so as to not raise suspicion. keeping in mind this is something neither of these countries have felt the need to do with aircraft they haven't exactly used a lot for some time now.

the biggest "enemy" that NK says they have is the US , not SK, they call them their disassociated brothers and sisters. so of course all their virtrol is focused , there ,on the US and its presence, now china and Russia , might not be all that happy with the US presence in an area very good in the past for listening and observation posts, but the days those being actually need4ed have gone the way of the dinos , with the advent of sat tech, so the only real reason for the US presence is the NK threats of invasion over the years to take the south. evidences with how many tunnels the NK have dug under the DMZ that have been found, remember the original conflict the NKs took almost ALL of the south except a small foothold around Pusan.

 and right now , NK attention is on the US , and counting on decades old alliances made by leaders that are no longer in power , and during a world situation that no longer exists or is palpatable currently . I say unpalpatable because there was a time during the domino theory period , where keeping the potential adversary busy with a brush fire conflict was adventagous , today its not nessisarily the case , the Kim dynasty is definitely a pain in the ass , but exactly whose pain in the ass it has become in todays world remains to be seen .

The scenario I posited about removal of said pain in the ass is pretty plausible and beneficial to just about everyone except the NK regime of the Kims china would benefit with a stabilization in the region as would the Russians, it would be beneficial if it moves reunification closer for the Koreans , japan as would most all of the Asian pacific region would benefit from the stabilization .

 I don't think anyone thinks there was never any back door deals being made during the cold war era , if there were not , then kennedys brush with the Cuban missiles wouldn't have been the only and most public brush with armegedon we recall. and I'm pretty sure there are those we as the public never heard about.

 and I think I have put enough dots down that folks can connect them themselves , as they say follow who benefits the most and where the money actually leads .

I am either a master conspiracy theorist , a or a brilliant stratigist , or maybe a very skeptical combination of both.....believe none of what you hear , and only half of what you see.....

I think NK, under this loon, is the equivalent of a having a vicious guard dog on the Chinese border. The dog is on too long a chain right now and a nuisance to China and the neighbors. However, NK is also a heavily armed barrier to US aggression that is minimal cost to China. The solution from China's perspective would not be to shoot the dog and make it easier for Trump to eventually threaten China (especially when his foreign policy consists almost entirely of threats). Instead, China wants to shorten the chain a bit and that's all China is likely to do no matter what we say. So China will not shoot the dog or stand by and let Trump do it. So Trump threatening to shoot the dog himself if China doesn't do it strikes me as just a stupid and counterproductive waste of time. 

thing is one , is that loon viewed as a guard dog as you state or is that loon an imbicile sitting on a keg of blasting powder, and playing with matches in the middle of a dynamite factory?

thing is one , is that loon viewed as a guard dog as you state or is that loon an imbicile sitting on a keg of blasting powder, and playing with matches in the middle of a dynamite factory?

I guess someone could ask the same question about Trump. 

"I guess someone could ask the same question about Trump. "

true for a lot of world leaders both past and present , and definitely future, but it is being asked about the leader of north korea.

 I have faith because of knowledge that trump cannot just arbitrarily launch nukes, can anyone say what safe guards in place with NK other than the spanking he could get from his neighbors and benefactors? , remember I had a career in nuclear security in the military as minor a role as I played. and do have faith in the fail-safes that have been put in place to stop such rash actions as some seem to think can happen on the p[art of the USA.

I have faith because of knowledge that trump cannot just arbitrarily launch nukes, can anyone say what safe guards in place with NK other than the spanking he could get from his neighbors and benefactors? 

Actually, although Trump couldn't launch missiles as easily as Kim, the president has sole authority to authorize a nuclear strike. All it requires is confirmation by the secretary of defense to make sure that the order is legitimate. The secretary can't veto the order. If the secretary of defense refuses to obey, then the president can immediately fire him and give the order to the deputy. Whether the strike is arbitrary or not is not an issue for the chain of command carrying out the order, although they too have to go through a verification process. The whole process is designed to be quick enough to ensure that we can respond to an incoming missle with a counter strike. So we're talking about roughly 30 minutes, the time it takes a missle to travel from Russia to a US target. 

But I don't want nuclear weapons at all. We should rid the planet of them not turn it into a nuclear club where we pass nukes out to our friends and deny them to our enemies. 

This is an interesting article regarding China and aircraft carriers.

This will be the 2nd Chinese aircraft carrier. In another article it states that China will be building four more to add to their fleet. Making a total of six.

msn