╌>

Christians go head-to-head over Sabbath

  

Category:  Religion & Ethics

Via:  heartland-american  •  8 years ago  •  219 comments

Christians go head-to-head over Sabbath

A two-hour, live-streamed debate titled “Should Christians Keep the Sabbath?” was billed by WND founder and debate moderator Joseph Farah as provocative and historic.

It didn’t disappoint.

Debaters Jim Staley and Chris Rosebrough dug deep into the issue of whether Christians should obey the fourth commandment – and if so, how?

Staley and Rosebrough traded barbs early and often in their quest to shed light on a question that has dogged Christian scholars for centuries. Staley is pastor of Passion for Truth Fellowship in St. Charles, Mo., while Rosebrough is a Christian apologist and pastor of Kongsvinger Lutheran Church in Oslo, Minn. Both men also have radio ministries.

Staley, whose teaching videos are available through the WND Superstore, had the home-field advantage as the debate took place at his church during the final hours of the traditional biblical day of rest – Saturday. He took the position that Christians today should continue to keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week, just as Jesus and His early followers did.

Rosebrough countered that the Sabbath laws were designed by God for the Israelites living under the Mosaic Covenant, and they no longer apply to believers in Jesus after he died on a cross and rose from the dead.

Staley wasted no time going on the offensive, throwing out a litany of Scripture references on the Sabbath. He cited from Genesis, Isaiah, Zachariah and Ecclesiastes in the Old Testament, and Mark, 1 John, Matthew and Romans in the New Testament.

“There are many people who say it (Sabbath) was given for Israel,” Staley said. “God, actually, from the very beginning, He never intended for all days to be the same. He put from the very beginning the sun and the moon in the sky to set so that he could have those special times and appointments and we wouldn’t miss them. So if the debate is going to be that we can choose the day (of rest) then we’re obliterating the day He put the sun and the moon and the stars in the sky.”

Read WND’s classic in-depth news report on the Sabbath controversy: ‘Deception’: Christians war over worship day

He said the Sabbath laws predated the Israelites, as they were alluded to in the Garden of Eden and in the days of Noah in the book of Genesis.

Staley sees the fourth commandment as no different than the other nine commandments in which believers are required to refrain from stealing, lying, coveting, murdering and committing adultery.

Keeping Sabbath is “all over the New Testament,” he said, citing Matthew 5:17, in which Jesus said, “I did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill the law.”

1 John 5:2 says “for this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.”

“If my children keep nine of my commandments but not one, which one am I going to remember?” Staley asked.

“In the tribulation (book of Revelation) we see God’s people defined by two things, not just that you love God but that you prove your love for God by, what? Keeping his commandments.”

Perhaps most important to Staley’s view was that Jesus “kept the Sabbath, as well as all the first Christians.”

See the full debate:

It was only after the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem that Gentile Christians began to be detached from the Jewish roots of their faith and forget the importance of the Sabbath, Staley said.

“It was man’s ideas … and anti-Semitism that changed man from his biblical roots.”

In A.D. 321 , the Roman Emperor Constantine required that all of Rome’s workshops be closed on the first day of the week, Sunday, which was the traditional day of observance to the pagan sun god.

“In that day you were no way going to go against the state, because if you did, you were going to die,” Staley said.

“We see this debate raging on through the centuries.”

The church officially banned Christians from keeping the Jewish Sabbath at the Council of Laodicea in A.D. 363, replacing it with Sunday or “The Lord’s Day.”

Jim Staley
“Why did it do that? Because Christ, they thought, was raised on a Sunday.”

He said while Jesus probably was crucified on a Thursday, and rose during the predawn hours of Sunday, “History proves, ladies and gentlemen, that the Sabbath was everywhere,” he said. “Who ended up ruling the world? Rome. And whoever rules ends up making the rules.”

He said the Bible shows the Sabbath “was for all men and for all time.”

“My opponent will have to prove the Sabbath was not given to man in the garden and in the millennium and was not given as a day of rest and blessing.”

Staley said God’s laws about the Sabbath were corrupted by “a history of pagan, polytheistic Gentiles using Greek interpretations.”

“It’s a formula for disaster from the very beginning,” he said. “If the intent of Christ was to abolish the Sabbath, why is there not a single, straight-forward instruction in the Bible?

“If keeping the Sabbath on the day the Bible says is bondage, why are so many people being healed and being blessed by keeping it?

“I believe the burden of proof lies with my opponent that God did not mean what He said and that what He meant as a blessing has become a curse. I suggest we go back and grab hold of the blessings that we don’t even know that we’re missing.”

Rosbrough counters

Rosebrough argued that Staley was misreading the text and missing the point of Jesus’ death and resurrection.

“The (fourth) commandment does not stand alone but is part of Torah,” he said. “This question cannot be answered solely by looking at the covenant. You cannot look just at the law. The early church fathers rightly understood this.”

To correctly interpret such Old Testament proclamations as “The children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath forever,” one must dig a little deeper, he said.

“When you pay closer attention to the text, it is not saying the Sabbath will be observed for eternity,” Rosebrough said.

The Hebrew word “olam” does not always mean eternity but “for a time,'” he argued.

“As Old Testament scholar Harold Dressler said, it is not designed for all time but was a specific institution for Israel; it is not a covenant forever,” he said.

Rosebrough cited Hebrews 7, which says: “For when there is a change in the priesthood there is necessarily a change in the law as well.”

Also, Galatians 3:19, says the purpose of the law was to highlight transgressions “until the seed to whom the promise referred had come.”

“The law was our guardian so that we might be justified by faith,” Rosebrough said. “All of these clear passages that Christians are not under the law, and the law was but a shadow of good things to come, and therefore the idea that the earth and heaven shall pass away before the law is abolished does not mean it will never pass away. It’s an idiomatic statement, similar to our statement, ‘Until hell freezes over.’

“It is not saying the law will be in effect to the end of the world, but until all is fulfilled.”

In Hebrews 8, Rosebrough said the author communicates that “not only did Christ usher in a new covenant, but he makes the old one obsolete.”

He then read Ephesians 2:14-15, which says Jesus “destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.”

For the same reason, Christians don’t have to keep a kosher diet or celebrate the new moons and Jewish festivals, nor do they have to keep Sabbath, according to Rosebrough.

“Those were all types and shadows of things to come,” he said. “The law, according to the New Testament, is the shadow. Jesus is the substance.

“Paul specifically says in Colossians not to let anyone condemn you for not keeping the Sabbath. Why? Because these are the shadows!”

The idea that Constantine is responsible for replacing the Jewish Sabbath with a pagan observation “plays well if you’re into ‘Da Vinci Code’ conspiracies but doesn’t hold water if you look at Scripture.”

He then cited Acts 2, which says that on “the first day of the week” the apostles gathered to break bread.

“There’s not a single commandment in the New Testament regarding keeping Sabbath,” Rosebrough concluded.

“Because it was clear all the ordinances of the Torah, they were all canceled, giving way to the substance of the new covenant. And we are no longer under Torah and its ordinances, and its sabbaths and its new moons and its feasts.

“By the second century, Christians were observing the first day, the Lord’s Day and not the Sabbath.”

Pointing to reality

Staley rebutted Rosebrough’s conclusions, saying that while much of the Torah uses types and shadows, those symbols also “pointed to reality.”

He again hammered away at the anti-Semitism displayed by the early church fathers. He said the first Christians were described in Acts as meeting on the “first day because they were meeting every day.”

“I can see my opponent’s strategy is to bog me down by chasing all these Scriptures,” Staley said.

“If my opponent is correct, ladies and gentlemen, we can commit adultery, we can murder, because … if he is right we don’t have a single other definition of sin in the Bible.”

Chris Rosebrough
Staley noted the millions of dollars spent on overseas missions.

“If the law is done away with, there is no reason to tell them they need Jesus. For what? To save them from something that doesn’t exist?

“He came to remove the penalty, not the law,” Staley said. “Everyone of the verses my opponent has brought up has been misunderstood.”

“We’ve got massive amounts of Scriptures of disciples telling us to keep the law of God.

“We are not to live by the flesh but of the spirit. You did not receive the spirit of bondage but the spirit of God, and those who have the spirit of God actually keep the law of God. Those who do not have the spirit of God, cannot!”

Two covenants

Rosebrough hit hard on the difference between the two covenants of God.

“The reason they did not keep the Sabbath is because the Mosaic covenant is no longer in effect. Can we then commit adultery? Of course not.”

He cited the Epistle of Barnabas, saying early Christians kept the Sunday Sabbath “with joyfulness which is also the day Jesus rose from the dead.”

He cited Justin Martyr’s “Dialogue with Trypho the Jew,” written about 60 years after the death of the Apostle John, as evidence that the Jewish Sabbath was no longer required to be kept by Christians.

“He is very kind to the Jew he is talking to and lays all this out,” Rosebrough said.

“This is 60 years after the death of John, and he’s saying those who don’t keep the Sabbath assuredly will inherit the things of God. Justin notes that Adam did not keep the Sabbath and Noah didn’t. It was Moses who enjoined the children of Israel to keep it.

“Early in the second century, Justin takes the time to explain to us what sounds exactly like a church service, with a call to worship, time to take the Lord’s Supper, to take up an offering for widows and orphans, and to hear the word of God,” said Rosebrough.

“All the church fathers acknowledged that the Sabbath had been done away with. And they commemorate the creation on the eighth day. And the reason is that they remember they were no longer under the old Mosaic covenant. It’s given way to the new covenant. Not some conspiracy theory.”

Staley criticized Rosebrough’s reliance on Justin Martyr to justify his position.

He then rattled off quotes from early church fathers that showed their disdain for all things Jewish, including one from Justin that said, “God imposed upon you (Jews) the Sabbath as a mark for your sins.”

St. John Chrysostom, also known as “Golden Mouth,” said the synagogue was “worse than a brothel” and “a temple of demons and a refuge of brigands and assassins of Christ, a den of iniquity.”

Staley said St. John Chrysostom hated the synagogue and hated the Jews for the same reason.

St. Augustine was not much better, he said.

“And on and on it goes where they are heavily slanted against the Jews, because they did not speak Hebrew, they did not understand the Hebrew roots. These were Greek philosophers.”

He agreed that the Jewish feasts are shadows of things to come but concluded: “The shadows are there to lead you to reality. The reason you might want to observe the feast days is that it would lead you to the foot of the cross. It’s a straw man argument my opponent has put up.”

Rosebrough was not swayed.

“How is it anti-Semitic for a church father to quote Galatians 3:19? Pointing that out to his Jewish dialogue partner does not make him anti-Semitic.”

Regarding the moral laws, Rosebrough said the question comes down to what function Torah serves.

“It’s important to know that the commandments all get rolled up in the New Testament, but none of the commandments about the Sabbath and feast days, none of those get rolled up in the New Testament. But the first Christians did not observe those yet they had extremely high morals. In fact, I would argue that the morals of the New Testament are greater than those in the Torah.

“You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love is the fulfilling of the law,” said Rosebrough.

“Christ has not called his church to lawlessness, so the idea that without the Torah we cannot be moral? No, you haven’t read your Scriptures.”

At one point in the debate, Rosebrough turned to his opponent and asked: “Am I an apostate if I don’t keep the Sabbath?”

“It is a transgression against the law. That’s different than being apostate. Torahlessness is lawlessness,” Staley answered. “There’s only one law, my friend.”

“No, actually, there is the law of Christ,” Rosebrough responded.

Rosebrough’s closing statement

“We see the Mosaic covenant has come to an end, and this is why we see Christians of the late second century no longer observed” the Hebrew Sabbath, Rosebrough concluded, t

He then cited Hebrews 4, saying, “For we who have believed entered into his rest.”

Rosebrough said the reality “that’s being pointed to was salvation through faith alone.”

“When we are in Christ we are in the true Sabbath rest. And to add works to what the Lord has already done is to put yourself outside the Sabbath that Christ has created for you. It’s a free gift, a Sabbath rest, and if you do not have it you are not truly in him.”

Staley’s closing statement

Staley said those who believe God meant for the Sabbath to remain find themselves in “a win-win situation, because there is no proof anywhere in the Bible that the day He set apart and called holy would suddenly be suspended or canceled.”

“There is no commandment saying we are not to keep it. Only assumptions and quotes from anti-Semitic church fathers,” he said.

“Chris, if you are right and I’m wrong I have nothing to lose. But if I am right, and you are wrong, you will have to answer to God as to why you listened to church fathers and not him.

“The Bible says fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

“Every one of us has two choices of who we can follow: You can choose to follow the church fathers if you’d like, but as for me and my house, we will follow the father of the church!”   https://www.google.com/amp/www.wnd.com/2014/05/christians-go-head-to-head-over-sabbath/amp/


Tags

jrDiscussion - desc
[]
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
3  charger 383    8 years ago

When I was working and had weekend off, it was mine to enjoy as I wanted

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
3.1  cjcold  replied to  charger 383 @3    8 years ago

And the constant rebuilding of the Holley 4160. Been there, done that.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4  JohnRussell    8 years ago

I started to read the seeded article in the hope of finding something worthwhile to comment on, but not having drank copious amounts of alcohol this evening,  I couldn't get there. 

I think articles about dogma should be confined to groups. It borders on proselytizing and it was a snoozefest. 

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Quiet
4.1  Skrekk  replied to  JohnRussell @4    8 years ago

I was just about to start an Andechs doppelbock dunkel before tackling HA's bible-bible.    Damn good beer and brewed by Benedictine monks.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
4.1.1  cjcold  replied to  Skrekk @4.1    8 years ago

Never heard a bad thing said about what monks can do with grape juice.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Quiet
4.1.2  Skrekk  replied to  cjcold @4.1.1    8 years ago

The first time I tried it was about 20 years ago at their monastery in Bavaria.   It's considered one of the very best beers in Germany.....and I just found out a few weeks ago that a local liquor store now carries it.    I didn't even know they made enough to export to the US.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
4.1.3  cjcold  replied to  Skrekk @4.1.2    8 years ago

Capitalism at its finest. I expect MONKSRUS.COM  to be the next hot stock.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Guide
4.5  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @4    8 years ago

I think articles about dogma should be confined to groups. It borders on proselytizing and it was a snoozefest. 

Definitely boring.

Here's a suggestion-- perhaps you should contact Perrie and request she eliminate the rule in the CoC that forces us to read entire articles that we're not interested in-- and worse yet, the part of the rule that forces us to comment on an article-- even if we're not interested in it!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.5.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Krishna @4.5    8 years ago

Good idea !

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Participates
5  Hal A. Lujah    8 years ago

I’m a fan of the sabbath.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Quiet
5.1  Skrekk  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @5    8 years ago

And didn't the Great Sky Fairy say that the sabbath was supposed to be kept on Saturday?    How arrogant of Protestants to move it to Sunday.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Quiet
5.1.4  Skrekk  replied to  XXJefferson51 @5.1.2    8 years ago
Sunday was the day observed by the vast majority of the church for 1,000 years before there was a Protestant.

Sounds pretty messed up.   Christians apparently no longer even try to keep the 4th commandment about remembering the sabbath and keeping it "holy".   Apparently there were too many leaves to rake on Saturday, the true sabbath day.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Quiet
5.1.6  Skrekk  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.5    8 years ago
(deleted) SP

Nah, we're just amused by the hypocritical Christians who want the government to enforce their sharia laws.....while they themselves constantly violate those vestiges of theocracy.   Like your pussy-grabbing and pathological lying Fuhrer for example.

 
 
 
lib50
Professor Silent
5.1.7  lib50  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.5    8 years ago
(deleted) SP

Lol, you are giving not only a pass, but accolades as well, to a man who doesn't know a commandment from his arse.  The supposed christians don't give one f**k about  the commandments unless they stand to gain something.  You can't walk back this total lack of morals and values on one hand, and care about it when you want to pretend righteousness.  We don't believe your commitment to the commandments because of the way those christians are living their lives in front of our very eyes.  We see what they value, we see who they value.

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Quiet
5.1.10  Skrekk  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.8    8 years ago
I wondered how long before (deleted) made some comparison to Hitler, and there you are, right on time!

I didn't say that your Fuhrer was comparable to Hitler but now that you mention it it seems that even the Germans see the similarity.

Off Topic {SP}

.

Of course the central point of commonality is authoritarian Christianity.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
5.1.13  MrFrost  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.8    8 years ago

Off Topic {SP}

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Quiet
5.1.14  Skrekk  replied to  MrFrost @5.1.13    8 years ago

Off Topic {SP}

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
5.1.15  cjcold  replied to  XXJefferson51 @5.1.2    8 years ago

Skirting CoC {SP}

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
5.1.17  MrFrost  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.16    8 years ago

Off Topic {SP}

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
5.1.18  MrFrost  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.5    8 years ago
(deleted) SP

Off Topic {SP}

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
5.1.21  MrFrost  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.19    8 years ago
Why blame someone else for YOUR post?

Huh? That doesn't even make sense. 

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
5.1.30  cjcold  replied to  XXJefferson51 @5.1.2    8 years ago

My ancient clan believed in a flying Spaghetti monster long before your backwards heretic clan.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Guide
5.1.31  Krishna  replied to  XXJefferson51 @5.1.3    8 years ago
a hecklers veto to poison the conversation until an atheist collapsed the seed.

They used the "nuclear option"-- the dreaded "heckler's Veto"? OMG!!!

(Next thing you know they'll try to invite the Nt filibuster rule --- when a simple majority in both Houses of NT should suffice! In any event, let's not blame all  those evil Athiests. Why not keep it simple-- and just blame Hillary!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Guide
5.1.32  Krishna  replied to  XXJefferson51 @5.1.2    8 years ago
Protestants didn’t do that.  A majority of us have continued to observe after we came to be in the reformation.  Sunday was the day observed by the vast majority of the church for 1,000 years before there was a Protestan

And what about Reincarnation? Wasn't that Church doctrine until some Pope came along and said that Reincarnation wasn't kosher?

 
 
 
magnoliaave
Sophomore Silent
8  magnoliaave    8 years ago

Atheists can't help themselves.  They are like children always interrupting the grown ups. 

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
8.1  cjcold  replied to  magnoliaave @8    8 years ago

You mean the grownups who worship mythological beings? Those grownups?

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Quiet
8.1.2  Skrekk  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.1.1    8 years ago

Apparently some folks never grow out of their need for an imaginary friend.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
8.1.4  cjcold  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.1.1    8 years ago

Exactly!

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2  MrFrost  replied to  magnoliaave @8    8 years ago
They are like children always interrupting the grown ups.

Adults don't believe in Santa, or mythological beings that never ever, in any way, show themselves or provide even a shred of evidence that they exist. Only children believe in that non-sense. In other words, you have it backwards. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
8.2.2  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.2.1    8 years ago
In other words all the people around the world who worship any God their religion calls for are children

"Children" is the wrong word. "Irrational" would be better.

and only those who follow the religion of atheism which believes no god exists are mature adults?

You must be confused. Atheism isn't a religion.  And not believing in a god is not a belief in itself. Calling it a religion/belief is a contradiction in terms, not to mention willfully disingenuous. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2.5  MrFrost  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.2.1    8 years ago
Now who are the condescending arrogant ones?

The poster that said...

Atheists can't help themselves.  They are like children always interrupting the grown ups. 

??????????

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2.6  MrFrost  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.2.1    8 years ago
religion of atheism

Doesn't exist. And weirdly enough, freedom of religion, also means freedom FROM religion. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2.7  MrFrost  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.3    8 years ago

Do you get paid to use the word, "liberal"? I mean, you just spew garbage with the word liberal attached to everything. Do you think that EVERYONE that doesn't agree with YOU is a LIBERAL? Good grief, grow up. 

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
Junior Quiet
8.2.9  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.2.1    8 years ago
religion of atheism

Thinking you can drag us down to your level with the worn-out old BS isn't doing you any good and not working.  But I know that won't stop you from doing it. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
8.2.10  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.2.4    8 years ago
If you believe there is no god then you believe.  

Believe in what?   Nothing?    Why do people insist on trying to paint atheism as a belief system when all it does is make them look clueless?

You take it as an article of faith that there isn’t one despite the fact you haven’t been all over the universe looking for one to be certain there is not one.

Is that what he does?  No, HA, nobody takes it on 'faith' that there is no god.   That does not even make sense.   The closest one can come to the bizarre notion you have presented is the gnostic atheist who claims certainty that no god exists.   Very few atheists are gnostic atheists because the position of certainty is unsupportable.   (Likewise, your position of gnostic theism is unsupportable.)

Most every atheist is an agnostic atheist.   An agnostic atheist is simply not convinced there is a god.  No belief system, just plain old fashioned skepticism pending persuasive evidence.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
8.2.11  arkpdx  replied to  MrFrost @8.2.6    8 years ago
freedom of religion, also means freedom FROM religion. 

No it does not. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
8.2.12  Gordy327  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.3    8 years ago

Which liberal/s are you referring to? 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2.13  MrFrost  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.8    8 years ago
Are you claiming you are not a liberal?

I am not a liberal, no. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2.14  MrFrost  replied to  arkpdx @8.2.11    8 years ago

Yea, it really does. No one can force their religion on another person, in other words, freedom FROM religion. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
8.2.18  Gordy327  replied to  arkpdx @8.2.11    8 years ago

Yes, it does.

 
 
 
Gordy327
Professor Participates
8.2.19  Gordy327  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.2.4    8 years ago

A lack of belief is not a belief. That notion is absurd. Neither do I "believe" there is no god. I simply do not accept claims for a god without evidence. Without evidence or proof, there is no reason to accept, or believe, there is a god.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Guide
8.2.20  Krishna  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.2    8 years ago
And not believing in a god is not a belief in itself. Calling

Actually it is a belief-- its a belief that God exists. As is the belief that God doesn't exist. (neither POV is a provable fact).

A belief-- as opposed to a fact. Facts can be proven, beliefs can't be. And since you can't prove God doesn't exist,...that's a belief. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Guide
8.2.21  Krishna  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.2.17    8 years ago
On the other hand no one has the right to never be exposed to religious thoughts.

But if that's the case-- does no one also have the right to be exposed to religious beliefs?

Is either right protected by the Constitution?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Guide
8.2.24  Krishna  replied to  Gordy327 @8.2.19    8 years ago
Without evidence or proof, there is no reason to accept, or believe, there is a god.

Yes-- and without evidence or proof, there's no reason to accept or believe that there is no god.

Again-- there is no prof that there is a god AND the is no proof that there isn't a god. 

Since there's no proof either way, you can believe there is a god, or believe that there isn't a god. But both are beliefs-- not provisble facts.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
8.2.25  TᵢG  replied to  Krishna @8.2.24    8 years ago
Since there's no proof either way, you can believe there is a god, or believe that there isn't a god. But both are beliefs-- not provisble facts.

A third possibility that is not a belief is simply not being convinced that there is a god.    It is like not being convinced there are Martians.   Without evidence to support the existence of Martian life there is no reason to hold that Martians exist.   Should evidence present itself then ... major league headlines ... and skeptics now following the evidence to where it lead.

Making this comment because quite a few on NT are on a 'atheism is a belief system - a religion' kick.    Like dealing with mini-Ken Hams.  :) 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2.26  MrFrost  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.2.22    8 years ago
Perrie pays me each time I say it due to the extra hits the site draws because of it.

Why am I not shocked. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
8.2.27  MrFrost  replied to  Texan1211 @8.2.15    8 years ago
Of course I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is a liberal

Could have fooled the rest of us. The right uses the word, "liberal", almost as a racial slur, given how often they use it. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
8.2.29  TᵢG  replied to  MrFrost @8.2.26    8 years ago

Not sure if you are kidding, but you should be surprised because Perrie seeks the opposite of sensationalized, label-driven content.   A bunch of childish name-calling and ridiculous general claims about parties, ideologies, etc. is tabloid crap - not thoughtful discussion / debate.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Participates
8.2.30  Raven Wing   replied to  MrFrost @8.2.27    8 years ago
The right uses the word, "liberal", almost as a racial slur, given how often they use it.

That's the intention. Along with their preferred prefixes and suffixes. 

 
 
 
Skrekk
Sophomore Quiet
8.2.32  Skrekk  replied to  arkpdx @8.2.11    8 years ago
freedom of religion, also means freedom FROM religion. 


No it does not. 

Yes it does, necessarily.   See Torcaso v Watkins if you want to understand why that is.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
8.2.33  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @8.2.31    8 years ago
We like Ken Ham.

I know, HA, .... I know.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
10  MrFrost    8 years ago

WTF SP? Why not just delete all the posts and be done with it? Ridiculous. 

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
Junior Quiet
11  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו    8 years ago
Debaters Jim Staley and Chris Rosebrough dug deep into the issue of whether Christians should obey the fourth commandment – and if so, how?

Not just debaters but master debaters, I'm sure. laughing dude

 
 
 
CB
Professor Guide
12  CB    8 years ago

Where to start? Faith came before the Commandments and Law?

 
 
 
lennylynx
Sophomore Silent
12.1  lennylynx  replied to  CB @12    8 years ago

Yes Cal, faith comes first in Christianity, before anything else, before any possible debate about God's existence.  The first thing you must do is 'have faith.'  I love it when you godders talk about how important 'faith' is.  You are openly admitting that you have no logical reason for believing the fantastical nonsense you claim to.  Faith is not required to believe what is true.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Guide
12.1.1  CB  replied to  lennylynx @12.1    8 years ago

Name-calling is child-like. And even some children won't play at it. Let's set a good example, eh? If you do not wish to positively add to the discussion, here take your 'ball,'— I have one of my own!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  CB @12.1.1    8 years ago

Overlook the word 'godders' (you have been called worse) and lenny is simply stating what religious people state.   It all begins with faith.   Faith is the cornerstone of everything religious.   Do you not agree?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Guide
12.1.3  Krishna  replied to  lennylynx @12.1    8 years ago
You are openly admitting that you have no logical reason for believing the fantastical nonsense you claim to.

Just to play Devil's advocate here for a moment-- IMO its perfectly fine to believe its true without being able to prove it logically. 

Actually it would be accurate to say I "know" something is true but the process by which I know its true is not logic. Rather, some of what I know t be true comes from Intuition-- I can't logically prove it to anyone, but I know its true.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.1.4  TᵢG  replied to  Krishna @12.1.3    8 years ago
I can't logically prove it to anyone, but I know its true.

But that is just playing semantics.   English words typically have multiple usages - different definitions based on how they are used in a sentence and in various contexts.   

The use of 'I know' to mean 'I am convinced' is valid, but we still need to distinguish the semantic claim of truth from one of personal conviction.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.1.6  TᵢG  replied to  XXJefferson51 @12.1.5    8 years ago
So, yes, it’s all about faith.

We agree but we also see things differently.   You see faith as a positive whereas I see it as a negative.   Faith, to me, is the suppression of critical thinking.   Accepting something as true without evidence - simply because other human beings said it was true.

Religions have convinced people that faith is not only a good thing but it is something to strive for ... indeed it is THE thing to strive for.   They have taken their greatest vulnerability and turned it into the ultimate goal.  As I have noted many times, religions are the historical masters at ensnaring minds.  Religions have mastered how human beings think and the art of getting people to believe what you tell them.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Guide
12.1.7  CB  replied to  TᵢG @12.1.2    8 years ago

It is the tactless onslaught that I seek to avoid sometimes. The attitude ( 12.1  . . ." the fantastical nonsense ". . . ).  People of faith historically know we do not put forth the narrow definition of evidences rationalists seek. Jesus said this about that :

24  But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25  So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27  Then He *said to Thomas, Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28  Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29  Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

&

'A Christian Catechism says: "First, I learn to believe in God the Father, who hath made me, and all the world; secondly, in God the Son, who hath redeemed me, and all mankind; thirdly, in God the Holy Ghost [Spirit], who sanctifieth me, and all the elect people of God."'

The agnostic says, "How do you know all that? I consider I have no means of knowing these things you assert respecting God. I do not know, and can not know, that God is a Father, and that he has a Son, and I do not and can not know that such a Father made me, or that such a Son redeemed me."

But the Christian did not speak of what he knew, but of what he believed. The first word of a Christian is not, "I know," but "I believe." He professes, not a science, but a faith; and at baptism he accepts, not a theory, but a creed."

        — Henry Wace, D.D. 1888

&

Of course, there is the  addition  of the Indwelling Spirit.

All of this repetitive 'talk' by people who have made their point to the nth degree is. . .disturbing.  It is like a room of three-four year olds seeking to be a noisy distraction!  We are grown-ups, so let people speak plain!

I t is a topic about our mutually shared faith. If others do not have something nice to say, good home-training would say just be civil and listen.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.1.8  TᵢG  replied to  CB @12.1.7    8 years ago
It is the tactless onslaught that I seek to avoid sometimes

Understood, but lenny made a fair point and was not rude.   ('Godders' is pretty mild.)   I suspect you agree with his actual point.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Guide
12.1.9  CB  replied to  TᵢG @12.1.8    8 years ago

I can not 'hear' his point for the 'noise.'  For your efforts at sharing, Christians have a Messenger to bring the Word. For Faith comes by hearing!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Guide
12.1.10  CB  replied to  TᵢG @12.1.6    8 years ago

Religion is the side-effect of needing uniformity of expression. My friend, you should know this. There is no way for many minds to constructively strive together in what the New Testament calls, one body in any form unless there are rules, and from those customs, and traditions are acquired.

Faith (in God) is our first love and it is purposes is to teach love and trust for God/Spirit. My friend, you do not 'hear' the Spirit. You do not accept the 'calling' and we are 'locked' into explaining this point over and over to you; for, no man can give you faith. It is God's gift to those who ask!

Now then, why did I say the last? Because, we all need to move the discussion forward to breaking new territory.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Guide
12.1.11  CB  replied to  CB @12.1.9    8 years ago

Romans 10:17 New King James Version

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Going up↑ the 'chain' a link: The word of God requires a "Messenger."

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.1.13  TᵢG  replied to  Kathleen @12.1.12    8 years ago
So, who are you or anyone else to tell someone that something is not true when there has not been 100% proof either way.

I think you should re-read my post because your comment makes no sense as a reply to mine.

This ...

TiG @ 12.1.4   -  The use of 'I know' to mean 'I am convinced' is valid, but we still need to distinguish the semantic claim of  truth  from one of personal  conviction .

... is talking about the distinction of absolute truth from personal truth.   It has nothing whatsoever to do with me telling someone that something is not true.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.1.15  TᵢG  replied to  Kathleen @12.1.14    8 years ago

You replied to my comment which means you were replying to the words I wrote.   

Your reply does not make any sense based on what I wrote.   It is as if you replied to an entirely different comment.   

No one really knows the truth about life after death anyway.  So we are all in the same boat. 

Agreed.   Totally unrelated to what I wrote.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.1.17  TᵢG  replied to  Kathleen @12.1.16    8 years ago

Do as you wish.   But if you misrepresent someone else do not be surprised (or offended) if they too object.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
12.1.20  TᵢG  replied to  Kathleen @12.1.19    8 years ago

Thanks.  Hope you are feeling better.

 
 
 
MrFrost
Professor Guide
13  MrFrost    8 years ago

Believe in whatever you want to believe in, doesn't bother me in the least. But remember this, your religious freedom STOPS when it violates someone else's civil rights. Ask Kim Davis, she can explain it in explicit detail. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Guide
13.1  CB  replied to  MrFrost @13    8 years ago

I agree. And, vice-versa!

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Silent
14  mocowgirl    8 years ago

I believe in a 4 day work week so everyone has time to have a life, period.  

I do not know how it is possible to allow everyone to have the same day off without emergency services suffering.  The 4 day work week could rotate days so that everyone had the same number of weeks off in the course of a year.  I have worked 4 ten hour days and liked it because I had 3 day weekends occasionally and because I had a weekday off to go the doctor, dentist, tag my vehicle or just read a book while the kids were in school and the husband was at work!

However, I would like to see the 4 day work week consist of 8 hour days with full pay and full benefits.  I believe the increase in morale and production would prove to be cost effective.  Also, our society would benefit because we wouldn't be constantly stressed over work, work, work.  We might have time to plant some roses and smell them.  LOL!

For the religious minded, maybe some flexibility is needed by the spiritual leaders to poll their flock and to meet the needs of their flock instead of demanding that their flock only meet on Sundays and Wednesday for the evangelicals, Saturdays for the Seventh Day Adventists, etc.

Flexibility should not be a problem for the Christians since they have adapted to ignoring Yahweh's directive to kill people who work on the Sabbath.  To date, Yahweh has not retaliated or reiterated that he really wants his followers to murder anyone who works on the Sabbath.

 
 

Who is online



157 visitors