If Someone Has A Phd., Should They Always Be referred To As Dr. , Even In A Non-Professional Setting ?
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
An academic who slammed Qantas after a flight attendant called her Miss instead of Doctor has sparked a fierce debate over whether the airline was really at fault.
Dr Siobhan O'Dwyer, an Australian academic currently working in the UK, took to Twitter on Friday to complain about her experience of being called Miss.
"Hey Qantas, my name is Dr O'Dwyer. My ticket says Dr O'Dwyer. Do not look at my ticket, look at me, look back at my ticket, decide it's a typo and call me Miss O'Dwyer. I did not spend 8 years at university to be called Miss," she wrote.
The post has received nearly 8000 likes and sparked debate about whether Dr O'Dwyer, who has a PhD in Philosophy, or the flight attendant was in the wrong. Some have said Dr O'Dwyer was simply looking for an ego boost while others argued that to not call her doctor was a sign of disrespect. Fellow academic Dr Mel Thomson tweeted her support, writing: 'You have all of the solidarity on this issue.' "'I'm first gen to finish high school (let alone get several degrees) in my family … I'll be damned is some trolley dolly gets to decide what honorific I get called, FFS."
Many people took offence with Dr Thomson's use of the term 'trolley dolly', saying it was disrespectful to women and the flight attendant profession.
"Please don't refer to us as trolley dollies.We may not have completed a PhD however we are required by law to maintain quals (sic) that enable us to evacuate an aircraft in 90 secs, keep u alive in-flight, prevent hijacking, put out fires etc,' an airline steward using the Twitter handle Belleo tweeted. "I have always used the correct honorific. And I have always been especially careful to ensure I used it when I saw it on a woman's boarding pass as I was proud to be able to support the woman and her achievements in a male-centric world," she continued. "You've just gone and sh*t on that with your condescending comment about us."
After her tweet went viral, Dr O'Dwyer took to social media to say she had been 'copping so much flak' for the post.'This was not about my ego. It was about highlighting one of a thousand instances of sexism that women encounter every day. It’s not about the title, it’s about the fact that this wouldn’t have happened if I was a man,' she wrote.
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Sorry doc. Unless you are treating illness for a living, I'm not calling you Dr. on an airplane, or anywhere else outside of your professional environment. Get over yourself.
Sounds like the ''doctor'' has a problem that has nothing to do with the flight attendant.
Also calling the flight attendant a ''trolly dolly'' is pure elitism and a load of BS.
I'd be more inclined to refer to her as Ma'am rather than Dr, Miss or Mrs, but that's my military background coming into play.
Sounds like she is a bit full of herself. Buddy of mine has a PhD in mathematics... Not sure I have ever called him, "doctor" and I am reasonably sure he wouldn't like it much if I, or anyone else did.
Two PhDs and three honorary Doctorates are used for three things....1. For my students at the University to properly engage in professional etiquette. 2. To use in peer reviewed submissions for professional journals and presentations. And 3. for my departed mother to brag about her son "The doctor". Of course it can also be used to get a nicer hotel room or a reservation at an A list restaurant.
My daughter will be getting a PhD as will her boyfriend. He is getting it in both Psychology and Nursing. I don't think either would expect to be called Doc..
Here is a fun fact:
In England, only low level doctors (interns) are called Doctor. When you are a top level doctor you are called a Mister. So yes, you would be called Mister Blah blah, or in my cousin case Mister Gordon. Go figure.
I can't even spell PhD
BS: Bullshit
MS: more of the same
PhD: Piled higher and Deeper
LOL J/K
Lol, not really.
There is a lot of truth to what you say .....
If we are truly honest with ourselves, any of us with letter like that in our titles know it to be true.
With some more than others of course but true just the same.
Post Hole Digger.
Getting a Doctorate in Nursing just seems strange to me. What exactly would that qualify him to do that other Nurses can't ?
play Dr.
ooops, sorry Perrier
Spent 15 years as a paramedic. Some medical doctors like the full title, some like just "doc", some I used just their first names. In the academic community I've never met a PhD that insisted on being called Dr. The smarter PHDs just claim to have piled it higher and deeper.
A doctorate in nursing can lead to a career as a Nurse Practitioner. The Air Force used NPs a lot in the clinics. I also see a NP for my mental health.
Lots of things a person can do with a PhD in Nursing
Same here. Unless you plan on doing nothing but teaching, a PhD is overkill to the extreme. Not bashing it, like you, I just don't see the point.
Actually, it is the shape of things to come. You first get a masters in Nursing and then go on to get a PhD in a specific field of medicine. He actually can do everything that a doctor can do in psychology including prescribing medications as a private practice if he so chooses. He actually wants to work at the VA, since he spent some time there after being shot in the knee during a drug interdiction in the Coast Guard. He saw how badly some of the guys had PTSD and the shortage of docs to treat them and then he found out about this program, and it inspired him to do this.
Thank you trout. That is exactly what he is going for. I keep forgetting the term.
Spent all those years as a paramedic when I could have been a doctor just because I liked the street.
Or he may be going for a Physician's Assistant degree. Those require a PhD these days. Back when I was a young Neanderthal wandering the halls of academia I think you only needed a BS.
<del>He may want to consider the Nurse Practitioner route. It may be a bit tougher/longer than PA but it is now possible in many states for a NP to set up his/her own private practice. As far as I know PAs still have to be directly supervised by a physician.</del>
Ooops, just saw Perrie's comment above. Nevermind.
Used to call in for permission to do what I'd already done that was needed to save the patient's life.
This may have truly been an instance of a woman feeling that she is being denied the privilege of being called "Doctor" because of her sex.
I'm a dentist, and therefore professionally addressed as "Doctor". On a professional website, a group of us were discussing whether we use our titles in the office, the professional ramifications either way, and whether we expect to be addressed as "Doctor" outside the office. One male dentist told us that he and his wife, who is also a dentist, dropped their country club membership (yeah, yeah, first world problems) because the staff would always address him as "Doctor" (as they did for all male physicians and dentists who were members) and her as "Mrs." even after he corrected them. They insisted on using his professional title, and omitting hers. And honestly, I think that was a pretty lousy way to treat her - either drop the "Doctor" for everyone, or use it for everyone who's earned it, but if you only use it for the men who've earned it, and refuse to use if for the women, you're being sexist.
Incidents like that leave some women protective of their title.
I would probably call a dentist "Dr." if I had a reason to address them and wasnt on a first name basis. Dont care if it is a man or a woman.
Phd in mathematics, philosophy, economics, etc. ? No way, unless it was at their place of work.
One has earned it as much as the other, IMO. I still can't imagine calling any of my college or dental school professors anything other than "Doctor", and most of them were of the PhD variety.
For myself, I don't care if folks call me "Doctor" or "Sandy", in or out of the office. But if I were in a situation where it was made clear to me that male doctors (of any type) would be addressed as "Doctor", and female doctors (of any type) would not, well, that would piss me off. It's a deliberate insult based on sex, and I think people forget that such insults do still happen.
I don't think it's a matter of earning it. We don't live in a society where people refer to strangers as "Dr." unless they are medical doctors or dentists. That is my opinion anyway. If my next door neighbor had a phd in history and I was introducing him to another friend of mine, I would never say "I'd like you to meet my neighbor, Dr. so and so. Just not gonna happen like that.
How did you address your college professors?
Sir. or Dr.
I dont really see the relevance.
If you want to think that everyone who has a phd should be addressed as Dr. all the time you are free to that opinion, but it aint gonna happen.
Never really said that.
But anyone with whom I'm not on a first-name basis, I'll address by the title that properly applies to them. PhDs are as entitled to be called "Doctor" as physicians. In the academic world, a PhD is considered to be a more prestigious degree than an MD.
OK
But consider what someone with a PhD in biology goes through - years of research on top of classes, defense of their doctoral thesis. Med students are awarded their "doctor" before they do a residency or fellowship. They haven't finished their training yet. PhDs have achieved the terminal degree in their field, and I can tell you that a PhD in biology or chemistry probably has a better grasp of science than most medical doctors. Professional degrees are about applying the knowledge that PhDs programs provide.
So I have no problem with calling a PhD "Doctor".
The PhD is at least, if not harder, to achieve academically in most disciplines than an MD degree but medical school has its own special pressure-cooker aspect to it.
I'm aware.
I'm just pointing out that academically, one outranks the other. That's why, IMO, it's not silly to call a PhD "doctor", if one also calls medical doctors "Doctor".
Absolutely.
If they have a PhD in any field, they've earned the title "Doctor", IMO. They've demonstrated mastery of their "philosophy" at the highest level, whatever that philosophy happens to be.
I don't think it's a matter of if they've "earned" it. In America we don't generally casually refer to people by titles. If you had reason to talk to the chief of police of your town or city, would you address him personally as "Chief" , or as "Sir" ? I think the great majority of people would use "sir' which is the way we sometimes address people (men) we don't know.
We don't normally use titles to refer to people in this culture, other than medical doctors or dentists.
I'd bet you feel different if you or someone close to you had had to defend their dissertation in front of the in any of those disciplines doctoral committees. A doctoral thesis in the humanities can run to tome size (although it's not always about the size, is it
)--several hundred pages. It takes an amazing amount of discipline and research to put it together not to mention the courage to sit down in front of experts in the field and have them try to tear it (and you) apart.
If I were to address the chief of police of my town, I'd call him "Chief", as I'm not acquainted with him. I call our county sheriff by his first name, and he calls me "Doc", but I'm acquainted with his family. A lot of folks call him Sheriff Tim.
When I belonged to the fire department, names, nicknames, and titles were all used in various meetings. Minutes always reported comments made by Chief Soandso, Captain Soandso, etc.
Maybe we're just in different areas of the country, with different customs.
Oh I think in the minutes of a meeting or something like that the title would and should be used. I was talking more about how someone with a title might be addressed in a less formal setting or conversation.
Doctor Sandy
Nope, just Sandy.
My two newest employees still call me "Doctor", and one says "ma'am" every time she talks to me. I'm trying to break her of that, but she's a Navy gal, and it was drilled into her for years.
Speaking of Dr. Dentist, I cracked a tooth the other day and had to go see my dentist.
She took one look and said, nice job Fang, you're gonna need a cap on that tooth.
And under her breath she said something to the effect of, that tooth of Fang's is gonna help me get that new MBZ.
You've always been very comfortable in your own skin, Sandy. Your confidence radiates from within and titles mean little or nothing to you. [I'm smiling as I'm typing this.] Now THAT'S the kind of dentist I want working on me. Being humble is an amazing trait and one I've admired for years. I work with amazingly bright people, people who have graduated in the top two percent of accredited law schools, and have for decades. They're virtually all at the top of the intellectual chain. And 99% percent of them are as humble as they come. My boss for close to two decades while I worked in CA is a Harvard graduate, was on the Harvard Law Review and a Rhodes Scholar. And he knew our cleaning crew by name and would stop and talk to them; he knew our parking attendants by name; and never failed to inquire all about their families. And he is still, to this very day, one of my dearest friends.
I do agree with you that if your male colleagues are addressed as 'doctor', all female colleagues should be addressed that way as well.
And all the people you work with have a juris doctorate but are not called Doctor. I've always wondered why attorneys aren't called doctors when they essentially have a PhD.
I call my dentist "Doc". He doesn;t seem to mind
Aw, yer makin' me blush!
Most dentists I know are fine with either being addressed as "Doctor" or their first name. Many of us are "Doc", too, and I don't know anybody bothered by that.
When we talk among ourselves, about the only ones we recommend insist on the "Doctor" is the newbies just out of dental school, especially if they look younger than they are. It's easy for a Doogie Howser-like dentist to get railroaded by an aggressive patient or staff member, because age confers authority.
Damn, I gotta up my game. I drive a Subaru.
Sandy, I called my great niece who has a PhD and is a professor at the University of Nebraska and asked her about using the Dr. title.
Since hers would be an unbiased opinion and being that she is my great niece and thinks her Uncle Kavika walks on water I was sure that I would get the right answer.
She said that her students call her Dr. but that she would prefer outside of the academic world that she would be addressed by her given name.
She did say that if I ever called her Great niece Doctor the next thing that I would see would be stars. We really are a loving family...
Well, as long as you've been warned
Most people call me Sandy outside of work, and I like it that way. When I joined a local fire and rescue department years ago, everyone had a nickname, so I became "Doc". I was warned that if I didn't like that one, another would be chosen for me, and may not be to my liking.
When I go to dental meetings for CE, it can be a bit disconcerting, because dentists address each other by first name, but all of their staff who attend call all the dentists "Doctor". To me, it feels a bit elitist. Also, once I've talked to a staff member about our respective pregnancies, mommy brain, maternity leave, in-law problems, etc., I feel like we've achieved first-name basis, surely. But they still insist on calling me "Doctor", and that feels weird.
Yeah, but IT's A SUBARU!!
LOL, and a damn fine auto it is.
Well that sure levels the playing field. Thanks Doc Sandy. (I just covered all my bases)...
As a martial art instructor, bouncer, bodyguard, paramedic, musician, writer, Mensa member, ....... call me cj.
And most people call me Sandy. And I'm fine with that, as I've said.
I've also related a story, told by a man, no less, about situations in which people insisted on using the man's professional title of "Doctor" outside the office, but refused to use his wife's professional title of "Doctor" in the same situations. That's sexism. If you're gonna use it, use it for all who qualify, not just the penis-equipped ones.
I'm going to guess that what happened here was that there was a box to check the passenger's preferred title - Mr., Mrs, Miss, Dr., and she checked "Dr." It might be wise to drop that question on the reservation page.
I have a cousin who earned a PhD in biology before he got into medical school, he lets us call him Doctor Doctor
Gawd, how I hate those overachievers
. They think they're soooooo great.
Okay, so, without having been there and witnessed the entire event, maybe there was sexism. It seems in our society some are viewed upon as lesser. Ot has happened a time or two with women. Same with some men, especially ones of either sex who may be disabled.
At times I work with a disabled fella. Almost Stephen Hawking disabled. He can do some physical things, but needs a good deal of computer assistance when reading, writing and any other form of communication.
The guy is a genius. He has a PhD in Chemistry, Mechanical Engineering, maybe Physics...? He gets nothing but shit from from idiots.
Give him a fuel, ask him for the stoichiometric and you've got it in a few minutes with the full equation.
I have known only 2 other people to do that in my life. My grandfather and a fella who works at Walkinshaw. Give me some reference sheets, some head scratching time and eventually I'll figure out. Yes, there are quick charts, but these guys can do it from scratch.
He physically can not do a lot of things. In the minds of stupid people, this tosses his scientific knowledge.
For many things he is the only person I can use as a sounding board and get a real response. Funny, he has said as much about me.
With this in mind, I can understand the possibility she may have seen "that look" or "that voice" one too many times.
I made my friends and family call me doctor for like an hour and then it was over.
I think if you're talking to someone in the capacity of seeking out wisdom in their specialty, it's appropriate to call them doctor. But if you're just getting on a plane, you're just another meat sack in a too-narrow seat.
I'm known in my professional life as Doktor of Mixology...A title bestowed on me by guests at one of my many house parties.
I wear that title with a great deal of pride and not just a little bit of embarrassment.
This is Tom Cruise playing me in ''Cocktail''..(I'm taller in real life)
I call people without medical degrees "Doc" all the time. Devil Doc's ..... otherwise known as Navy Corpsman.
Love me some Devil Docs!
It's a recurring theme with ego-illusionists that they be addressed by title. Take Amy Bishop, for example:
Cite .
In 2010, Amy Bishop killed three and wounded three because she was refused tenure. She is also suspected in multiple other crimes.
People with fragile egos and who insist on receiving insincere respect are ... well ... batshit crazy. I'd rather be respected simply because I respect others and for no other reason.
I had a chemistry professor in college who faked cancer. We addressed her as "Doctor" because she was listed on the faculty as a PhD. She team-lectured my freshman chemistry class.
Toward the middle of the year, she told us that she was diagnosed with liver cancer that had been in remission, and started missing some classes. Not many, but some. She even had a student drive her to the hospital for chemo (he volunteered, because he was a nice guy), because she was single and had no family in the area. The next year, she was gone, and we found out it had all been a lie. She would wander around the hospital for a while, then go meet the student, who would take her home. Once the administration got suspicious, they looked into her background a little harder. She had met every requirement for her PhD, except defending her dissertation, and then had a nervous breakdown. She had never actually received her PhD. Of course, she was fired.
Thing is, she was actually an excellent lecturer. Much better than the other instructor of that class, who did have a PhD, but who could bore us to tears and once spent half of a chemistry lecture on the difference between the words "and" and "or".
Must be something with Chem Profs.
I had one in HS that had a weird habit. He would complete his lecture portion, assign us work to finish the hour and then he HAD TO empty the waste basket. Even if it had nothing in it.
I got the wise idea to crazy glue it down to floor. He flipped out when he couldn't pick up the waste basket, other teachers came in took him away and that's the last we ever saw him. Felt bad about it afterwards but who knew?
I had a dental school professor who could not abide errors in grammar or spelling. If someone left him a Post-it note, and the note wasn't properly punctuated, he'd correct it before throwing it away. Once the dental school staff noticed this, they started leaving him notes that were purposely misspelled and missing punctuation, and they "forgot" to cross their t's and dot their i's. Then they'd watch him from the hallway outside his office door. He'd correct all the mistakes, and throw away the notes.
Ah yes, the wacky, wacky world of the human condition.
God love us all!
That same professor was hardly ever there due to some health problems, but he was obviously milking the state. He'd come back and teach for a few weeks, just long enough not to lose his job, then start to "feel bad" again, and have others take over his classes. We had him for a grand total of 2 lectures in 4 years, even though his class was required for all of us.
When he finally turned in his notice saying that he was going to retire in June, another professor asked what year, and yet another professor was surprised to learn that he hadn't retired already.
And poor Howard Wolowitz ..... only a Masters Degree and only in Engineering .....
Poor guy may never get called "Doctor."
Damn, there are so many hilarious responses to this, including those from people I normally don't agree with. What a great bunch of damn funny comments!
Mr., Mrs., Miss etc..... seems fine to me.
Heck, even the highest ranking person in this country...… ever, is called Mr. from time to time, and no one seems to have bitched about that.
Same goes for Britain's Margaret Thatcher and now Theresa May, have been called Mrs..
I've only had one person say I should refer to him as Doctor in general public. I just laughed at him and walked away. Dumbest reason ever to say "I earned it with my time in school"
so fucking what? People "earn" their job titles all the time. You don't call people off duty and going about their routine lives "Officer/Firefighter/nurse/electrician" so and so.
Oh fuck off lady. On campus you are Dr. whatevertheshit, in the rest of the world you are whatever in the fuck someone decides to call you.