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U.S. moves ahead with oil leases near sacred park

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  perrie-halpern  •  7 years ago  •  192 comments

U.S. moves ahead with oil leases near sacred park
Democratic members of Congress, tribal leaders and environmentalists have criticized the federal Bureau of Land Management for pushing ahead despite the recent government shutdown.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



By   Associated Press

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. — U.S. land managers will move forward in March with the sale of oil and gas leases that include land near Chaco Culture National Historical Park and other sites sacred to Native American tribes.

The sale comes as Democratic members of Congress, tribal leaders and environmentalists have criticized the federal Bureau of Land Management for pushing ahead with drilling permit reviews and preparations for energy leases despite the recent government shutdown.

With limited staff on duty over the last month, the critics complained that they were locked out of the process because the agency didn't release any information about the sale. They also questioned whether the agency would be able to adequately review the land that's up for bid and whether it would consider protests to the move.

U.S. Sen. Tom Udall told The Associated Press in an email that he's concerned about the latest attempt to lease potentially culturally significant land in New Mexico without a more comprehensive plan in place.

"It's a mistake that while critical public services were shuttered for 35 days during the government shutdown, BLM still moved forward with this opaque process," the New Mexico Democrat said.

Agency spokeswoman Cathy Garber said officials decided to push back the lease sale by a couple of weeks to accommodate a public protest period that was delayed because of the shutdown. The agency quietly confirmed on its website that it would accept comments starting Feb. 11 and that the sale was scheduled for March 28.

Depending on the outcome of the protest period, it's possible for the agency to withdraw the land in question, including nine parcels near Chaco, a world heritage site with massive stone structures, kivas and other features that archaeologists believe offered a religious or ritualistic experience.

190131-chaco-national-park-9522_5b3cf9df Petroglyphs made by Ancient Puebloan People on rocks in the Chaco Culture National Historical Park, New Mexico. Mladen Antonov / AFP/Getty Images file

In all, more than 50 parcels in New Mexico and Oklahoma will be up for bid.

"We cannot help but protest what appears to be an intentional bias in the favoring of oil and gas development over other interests," former Acoma Pueblo Gov. Kurt Riley said last week during a congressional forum.

Riley and others said the shutdown exacerbated an already tense situation over the expansion of oil and gas development in northwestern New Mexico.

In recent years, land managers have declined oil and gas exploration on land within 10 miles of the park, creating somewhat of an informal buffer. In early 2018, then-Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke halted a lease sale over cultural concerns after hundreds of people protested.

The battle over energy development around Chaco has been simmering for years. In 2015, government officials visited the region in hopes of brokering a way forward for the tribes and energy companies.

The Bureau of Land Management and the Bureau of Indian Affairs began working together on revamping the resource management plan for the San Juan Basin, which covers a larger portion of northwestern New Mexico and parts of southern Colorado.

The partnership was meant to ensure tribes would be consulted and that scientific and archaeological analysis would be done to guarantee cultural sensitivity.


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Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
1  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.    7 years ago

Disrespecting the indigenous past for oil? 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Expert
1.1  Kavika   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1    7 years ago
Disrespecting the indigenous past for oil? 

Nothing new, happens all the time...They'll start digging in Apache Leap for copper and it isn't even an American company. There are numerous examples of this across the country and there will continue to be more and more...

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1.1  devangelical  replied to  Kavika @1.1    7 years ago

I recommend arrows. Lots of them.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
1.3  Cerenkov  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1    7 years ago

No. Using our natural resources outside of the conveniently sacred park.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
1.3.1  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Cerenkov @1.3    7 years ago

It is not a conveniently sacred park. It has been established as a scared land, with irreplaceable artifacts and now that is being threatened. 

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
1.3.2  livefreeordie  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.3.1    7 years ago

But it’s NOT on the land. Nor does it say how far away it is. “Near” is a very subjective description 

is it the normal 10 miles or ???

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
1.3.3  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  livefreeordie @1.3.2    7 years ago

I would say 10 miles is the min. Would you like to go to your church and pass what is posted at here @ 6

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
1.3.4  livefreeordie  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.3.3    7 years ago

I don’t understand why you think that would be important to them

i recently became pastor of a cowboy church in Arizona (with a few non cowboys included in the membership). 

I don’t know what you think they would find vital to them

and BTW, we don’t own any land. We rent a conference center at a large hotel

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
1.3.5  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  livefreeordie @1.3.4    7 years ago

You are being too literal. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
1.3.6  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  livefreeordie @1.3.2    7 years ago

It is and has been 10 miles.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
Junior Silent
1.3.7  livefreeordie  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.3.5    7 years ago

Then what was your point asking if I would share those photos with my church?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.8  Jack_TX  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.3.3    7 years ago
I would say 10 miles is the min.

Why?  What's special about 10 miles?

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
1.3.9  Split Personality  replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.8    7 years ago

line of sight?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.10  Jack_TX  replied to  Split Personality @1.3.9    7 years ago
line of sight?

I suppose it's as good a conjecture as any.  Do you know something concrete or is that just a reasonable guess?  

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
1.3.11  Split Personality  replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.10    7 years ago

As I posted down below, would you want an Oil rig near the Washington monument?

Oil derricks in the fields of Gettysburg?

Washington's Crossing?

I think not, but those are the sacred grounds of our culture.  I think there is definitely a double standard.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.3.12  Jack_TX  replied to  Split Personality @1.3.11    7 years ago
As I posted down below, would you want an Oil rig near the Washington monument?

Do I care if the oil pump is 6 miles from the Washington Monument instead of 10?  No. Not particularly.

Oil derricks in the fields of Gettysburg?

Are they actually allowing drilling on these sites or just a little closer than they have in the past?

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
1.3.13  Split Personality  replied to  Jack_TX @1.3.12    7 years ago

My understanding is that all previous admins kept a 10 mile buffer around National Parks.

They are of course a source of some revenue and would benefit from a lack of industrialization............

Now it seems, that the leases are being offered right up to the n boundaries, trusting that no one will drill horizontally on "our" public property.

Seems a little too trusting to me.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Silent
2  igknorantzrulz    7 years ago

FORE !

Trumpp, it's just anutter drip,

in a prostituted article, all part

ta sipple late tits', doing the breast,

the breast any kitchen 

could bever mikm out of

 
 
 
It Is ME
Masters Participates
3  It Is ME    7 years ago

Did anyone notice this part of the article ?

"U.S. land managers will move forward in March with the sale of oil and gas leases that include land "near" Chaco Culture National Historical Park and other sites sacred to Native American tribes,  !

Does this "Oil Lease" thingy INCLUDE "Land In" Chaco Culture National Historical Park and other sites sacred to Native American tribes ?

I didn't know that "Near" was a problem now. Is there a "Setback" requirement thing we don't know about ?

Just wondering !

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
4  charger 383    7 years ago

Overpopulation will put  pressure on sacred sites  

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
4.1  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  charger 383 @4    7 years ago

Indeedy. It is also doing it to our national park system. 

 
 
 
katrix
Sophomore Quiet
4.1.1  katrix  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @4.1    7 years ago

The National Park System has been controversial since it started.  It's a shame that so many people don't give a crap about preserving the natural beauty of our country before it's too late.  And the residents of the land are going to deal with yet more pollution ... in July, some fracking storage tanks exploded on the Navaho Nation and burned for 5 days.  The earthquakes that fracking causes, the pollution of the people's water wells ...  fracking sucks.

 As for the drilling and fracking, it's our land, so why are oil companies allowed to get rich from it?  I'd be interested in knowing how much they're paying for the leases, and how rich Zinke and his cronies are getting from it.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Expert
4.1.2  Ender  replied to  katrix @4.1.1    7 years ago

It amazes me that people cheer this on even though they will never see a dime of it.

Only be left with the aftermath.

 
 
 
katrix
Sophomore Quiet
4.1.3  katrix  replied to  Ender @4.1.2    7 years ago

It's very sad.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
4.1.5  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to    7 years ago

First of all, your "study" comes from the oil industry. Do you also believe the tobacco industry that cigarettes don't cause cancer?

Here is one from the EPA: 

EPA found scientific evidence that hydraulic fracturing activities can impact drinking water resources under some circumstances. The report identifies certain conditions under which impacts from hydraulic fracturing activities can be more frequent or severe:

  • Water withdrawals for hydraulic fracturing in times or areas of low water availability, particularly in areas with limited or declining groundwater resources;
  • Spills during the handling of hydraulic fracturing fluids and chemicals or produced water that result in large volumes or high concentrations of chemicals reaching groundwater resources;
  • Injection of hydraulic fracturing fluids into wells with inadequate mechanical integrity, allowing gases or liquids to move to groundwater resources;
  • Injection of hydraulic fracturing fluids directly into groundwater resources;
  • Discharge of inadequately treated hydraulic fracturing wastewater to surface water; and
  • Disposal or storage of hydraulic fracturing wastewater in unlined pits resulting in contamination of groundwater resources.

Data gaps and uncertainties limited EPA’s ability to fully assess the potential impacts on drinking water resources locally and nationally. Because of these data gaps and uncertainties, it was not possible to fully characterize the severity of impacts, nor was it possible to calculate or estimate the national frequency of impacts on drinking water resources from activities in the hydraulic fracturing water cycle.

EPA’s report advances the scientific understanding of hydraulic fracturing’s impact on drinking water resources, and can inform decisions by federal, state, tribal, and local officials; industry; and communities to protect drinking water resources now and in the future.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
6  Split Personality    7 years ago

perhaps no one would object to putting one of these up alongside the Washington Monument?

384

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
6.1  Split Personality  replied to  Split Personality @6    7 years ago

Or draining the Constitution Gardens for this?

384

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
6.1.1  Split Personality  replied to  Split Personality @6.1    7 years ago

and of course this could never happen in America  drenching hundreds of square miles with soot and poisonous fumes.

384

 
 
 
katrix
Sophomore Quiet
6.1.3  katrix  replied to  Tessylo @6.1.2    7 years ago

Thank goodness that in Maryland, they banned fracking. 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
8  1stwarrior    7 years ago

Based on the information provided in the article, no tribal "lands" will be impacted.  Definition of tribal "lands" are lands granted per treaty rights or set aside for tribal usage by Congress/BIA.

But, nothing has been said regarding the tribal "Aboriginal" land rights, i.e. meaning lands that the tribes/nations have established aboriginal title by actual, continuous, and exclusive use and occupancy for a "long time."  Unless Congress has abrogated aboriginal title, the tribes can still file suit for violation of usage.

The Chaco Canyon Heritage Site has gone through extensive Cultural/Natural evaluations.

The property is comprised of the acreage to which the federal government had surface title in 1987 located within seven components: Chaco Canyon, formerly a National Monument (1907) and now Chaco Culture National Historical Park (1980); Aztec Ruins, a National Monument (1923, expanded in 1928, 1930, 1948, 1988); and five Chaco Culture Archaeological Protection Sites (1980). The inclusion of Chaco Canyon and Aztec Ruins in the National Park system gives them the highest possible level of protection, and assures them a high standard of interpretation and public access. The legislation designating these components requires that the preservation of cultural resources be given high priority. Each Park unit has a General Management Plan and other related documents that address resource and land management and visitor use. The National Park Service’s general policies in these areas supplement the site-specific plans. The five Chaco Culture Archaeological Protection Sites are owned and managed for conservation by the Bureau of Land Management, a sister agency in the U.S. Department of the Interior. The property is subject to a suite of federal laws protecting archaeological properties. An Interagency Management Group established by federal law represents all federal, state, tribal, and local governments managing the property’s components. This group assures consistent and coordinated management through review of management decisions, sharing of technical expertise, and assistance with necessary legislation.

A long-term goal for the property is to ensure that interventions that may occur within or adjacent to the property – including development, energy exploration, extraction, and transportation projects – Do Not have a negative impact on the property’s Outstanding Universal Value, authenticity and integrity.

Granted, some folks will probably say that the Feds have completed their NEPA evaluations, up to and including an Environmental Impact Statement (required by the law), which is why BLM is allowing the Comment Period to run until the latter part of February.  If they have, then you can betchur Bippy some really strong arguments from the Pueblos, NCAI, NARF, and other Native American resources are gonna weigh real heavy in the decision making.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Expert
8.1  Ender  replied to  1stwarrior @8    7 years ago

What some refuse to realize is the drill doesn't just impact the small area it sits on.

They can set up a drill site next to indigenous lands and turn the drills under their lands.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
Professor Participates
8.1.1  1stwarrior  replied to  Ender @8.1    7 years ago

Not true - the tribes have "ownership" from the middle of the earth to the back of the universe - and there have been a couple of suits where SCOTUS agreed.

 
 
 
Nowhere Man
Junior Participates
8.1.2  Nowhere Man  replied to  1stwarrior @8.1.1    7 years ago
Not true - the tribes have "ownership" from the middle of the earth to the back of the universe

Absolutely correct!

Part of the standard package of "rights" that land ownership actually is..... doesn't matter who's land it is.....

Everyone who own the rights to a parcel of land controls every aspect of title from the center of the earth to the far reaches of space above. Unless there is an established easement as there is for the airspace above a parcel. OR, a specific right is negotiated or sold off the land like mineral rights or water rights.... Then the lease holder who purchased them holds those specific rights.......

Reservation land always has the rights to the minerals on and under it unless the specific treaty establishing the reservation removed them......

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Expert
9  Kavika     7 years ago

Published February 1, 2019

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah   — Less than three business days after the end of the partial government shutdown, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) announced plans to sell more than 217,000 acres of oil and gas leases on federal public lands throughout Utah during its upcoming March 2019 lease sale. The BLM plans to auction off 156 oil and gas lease parcels, including parcels in Utah’s culturally significant Four Corners region near Bears Ears, Hovenweep and Canyons of the Ancients National Monuments, as well as the wild and remote Book Cliffs.

Utah BLM staff worked during the federal government shutdown to prepare for this lease sale. Taken together, the parcels cut a wide swath through Utah’s cultural, hunting, and wilderness legacy.

Lockhart_Basin_1-1024x745-1-600x437.jpg Oil and gas leasing and development in Lockhart Basin would dramatically alter the beauty of this spectacular wild landscape. Photo copyright Ray Bloxham/SUWA

Throughout the course of three lease sales conducted over the past 12 months, the Trump administration’s BLM has systematically leased more than 112,000 acres in southeast Utah’s Four Corners Region, blanketing one of the densest accumulations of cultural resources in the country with oil and gas leases and setting the stage for the area to be drilled and developed.  A map illustrating the BLM’s all-out assault on this fragile region is  here .

"The BLM is placing the final pieces to complete its puzzle of oil and gas leases near Bears Ears, Hovenweep and Canyons of the Ancients national monuments,"  said Landon Newell, staff attorney for the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance .  “The BLM has done so without considering the big-picture impacts to these national monuments and surrounding landscapes, including impacts to dark night skies, air quality, and the region's rich cultural heritage."

The National Park Service, the BLM’s sister agency in the Interior Department, has written the BLM on two occasions – before the  March 2018 and now the  March 2019  lease sale – urging the BLM to not lease parcels on the doorstep of Hovenweep National Monument. The BLM has not deferred any parcels in response to these concerns.

In response to the BLM’s notice of the March 2019 sale, the  All Pueblo Council of Governors  and  Pueblo of Acoma  have demanded that the BLM defer selling leases in the area until the agency conducts a thorough cultural resources review of the region.  The  Hopi Tribe  has previously written the BLM demanding the same review. The BLM has not deferred any parcels in response to these concerns, either.

"The Trump administration is following a well-worn path of ‘leasing first, and thinking later,’ the same approach taken by the George W. Bush administration’s 'drill here, drill now’ policies,"  said Stephen Bloch, legal director for the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance .  "This approach has riddled Utah’s wild and culturally significant public lands with leases, which should come as no surprise given that it’s the same Bush political appointee –  David Bernhardt  – now steering the Trump Interior Department."

In addition to the sell-off of wilderness-caliber and culturally rich lands, the BLM plans to lease nearly 100 parcels in eastern Utah’s Uinta Basin and Book Cliffs region, which the Environmental Protection Agency recently designated in "nonattainment" of national air quality standards for ozone. The Uinta Basin suffers from some of the worst air quality in the nation, largely due to the BLM’s ineffective and lax management of oil and gas leasing and development. Rather than take steps to bring the Uinta Basin into compliance with air quality standards, the BLM is rushing forward faster than ever to sell off public lands in the Basin for exploration and development. The Book Cliffs are a wild and remote region prized by hunters and guides for trophy big game.

"With BLM staff already stretched thin, it’s hard to believe that the six days the government was open since comments were submitted on this lease sale could be sufficient to address the many risks to wildlife, wilderness and archaeological resources on 217,000 acres of public lands,"  said Nada Culver, Director of The Wilderness Society’s BLM Action Center . "And the fact that all of these parcels are still in the sale raises some red flags.”

"How many times can we say this? This is another egregious example of short term profit margins being put ahead of invaluable cultural and archeological resources - with areas near Bears Ears, Hovenweep, and Canyons of the Ancient national monuments being put back on the chopping block for the third time in a year,”  said Utah Sierra Club Director Ashley Soltysiak . "Once lost, these incredible places are gone forever."

There is no need to sacrifice Utah’s remarkable wild places for oil and gas leasing and development. Utah, like most western states, has a surplus of BLM-managed lands that are under lease but not in development,with only forty-five percent of its total leased land in development.  There were approximately 2.5 million acres of federal public land in Utah leased for oil and gas development (see  here and  follow hyperlink for Table 2, Acreage in Effect) at the close of BLM’s 2017 fiscal year – the last year in which BLM has provided oil and gas statistics. At the same time, oil and gas companies had less than 1.2 million acres of those leased lands in production ( here  – follow hyperlink for Table 6, Acreage of Producing Leases).

More information regarding BLM’s March 2019 lease sale is available  here .

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
9.1  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Kavika @9    7 years ago

And the worst part is that this is for private industry that will make the money, while these national treasures are lost in the process. Amazing how things can get done in this government even during a shutdown when profit is to be had. I wonder who made these payoffs?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Expert
9.1.1  Kavika   replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @9.1    7 years ago

Private industry makes millions/billions and the public and tribes are left with the aftermath of the destruction that they caused. 

For example the ''largest toxic spill'' in US history was on the Navajo reservation and was only a few months after Three Mile Island, yet most of America has no idea of this horrendous spill and these many decades later it is still a ''Super Fund'' site. 

The deadly affects of uranium mining on the Navajo reservation are still felt today. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Expert
10  Ender    7 years ago

Some don't think of the whole impact that will be made. It is more than just a well or drilling site. There will be heavy equipment moving around, roads being built, transport trucks constantly moving, stations set up.

Not to mention the flaring and waste water, etc. All to benefit a select few while leaving destruction in its wake.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
11  Cerenkov    7 years ago

Nothing is being threatened. That land is free to be developed even if the neighbors object.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Expert
11.1  Kavika   replied to  Cerenkov @11    7 years ago
That land is free to be developed even if the neighbors object.

As stated in comment 8 above there is a procedure that must be followed.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
11.1.1  Cerenkov  replied to  Kavika @11.1    7 years ago

Why bother? The opponents will reject the science like they always do...

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
11.1.2  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Cerenkov @11.1.1    7 years ago

This is not about science. This is about some corporation making money. This is a national treasure. In fact, the real science is still going on in these fields even now. There are findings there daily. 

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
11.1.3  Cerenkov  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @11.1.2    7 years ago

Oh please. What makes these areas outside the "sacred" areas a national treasure? Also, our nation benefits from the extraction not just EVIL corporations. Finally, such protests are anti science because they discount the EISs.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
11.1.4  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Cerenkov @11.1.3    7 years ago

The major winners are the oil companies. 

And there is nothing scientific about drilling and fracking. 

Don't make this about anything else other than oil. I'm all for being self-sufficient but not at the cost of our national treasures. Once they are gone, they are gone.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Participates
12  Raven Wing     7 years ago

I have to wonder what would happen and what the outcry would be if the government gave out oil leases in and around Jamestown and other landmark European settlements and Monuments? I feel quite sure that there would be a huge outcry and demand for the government to keep hands off. After all, those would be real American sacre treasures. Right?

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1  Cerenkov  replied to  Raven Wing @12    7 years ago

Nah. We understand that you can't isolate all land that comes within miles of some historical novelty. Nice try with the false conjecture though.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Participates
12.1.1  Raven Wing   replied to  Cerenkov @12.1    7 years ago

Nah....but, nice try at trying to sound erudite about what is actually involved.  jrSmiley_90_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1.2  Cerenkov  replied to  Raven Wing @12.1.1    7 years ago

It's just another anti-science appeal to emotion from the left. I've seen it countless times in my career. It bores me now, [deleted]

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Expert
12.1.4  Kavika   replied to  Cerenkov @12.1    7 years ago
Nah. We understand that you can't isolate all land that comes within miles of some historical novelty. Nice try with the false conjecture though.

Not true. 

Just for your clarification it isn't some historical novelty. If you trying to insult that was a rather childish attempt by you.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Silent
12.1.5  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.2    7 years ago
It bores me now, as does your Luddite protests.

i protestith too much about Budlites,

less filling   is the vacancy between ears of 

corny    as tastes grate, ain't always tasty.

.

Did you ever consider THe GOP, Republicans, The Farr 'Right', n off course POTUS

are all apparently Budlites, as they attempt to wall of America, due to those advanced illegal immigrants and their technology, from taking America's jobs...

and giving them to Central and Southern Americas'

other Americans,   in other words

Think U have a case    of Luddites'          no filling, less taste

to each their own       unless   you rent  as it's the lease u could do

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Expert
12.1.6  Kavika   replied to  Kavika @12.1.4    7 years ago

Since you think that it's a novelty I suppose that the Colosseum or other world heritage sites must be a historical novelty as well.

Here are a few photos of the area..

chaco_1_16x9.jpg

chaco-culture-national-historic-park.jpe

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoS1TRmv87S5MN9DoNhrS

Chaco-Canyon-2.jpg

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1.7  Cerenkov  replied to  Tessylo @12.1.3    7 years ago

To you, clearly.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1.9  Cerenkov  replied to  Kavika @12.1.6    7 years ago

Pretty. And an oil well somewhere else will have no effect on it.

The Earth is riddled with archaeological remains. That's no reason to freeze civilization .

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1.10  Cerenkov  replied to  Kavika @12.1.4    7 years ago

Yeah, it's a novelty. The planet is riddled with the remains of extinct civilizations. 

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1.11  Cerenkov  replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.2    7 years ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Participates
12.1.12  Raven Wing   replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.10    7 years ago
The planet is riddled with the remains of extinct civilizations. 

Ahhhh....but....you see, Native Americans are NOT extinct civilizations, although you may think so.  We are alive and still a viable part of humanity, regardless of what some people might think of them.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Expert
12.1.13  Kavika   replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.9    7 years ago
The Earth is riddled with archaeological remains. That's no reason to freeze civilization .

Civilization isn't be frozen at all...Did you not read and comprehend that currently in Utah there are 2.5 million acres of federal public land with gas and oil leases on them. Of that 1.2 million acres are in production leaving 1.3 million acres that have yet to be explored and brought to production..

Doesn't look like civilization is frozen at all.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1.14  Cerenkov  replied to  Raven Wing @12.1.12    7 years ago

Lol... So the Roman Empire is not extinct because Italians still live?! How is the Aztec Empire doing? Are they in the UN?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Expert
12.1.15  Kavika   replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.10    7 years ago

Wow, the Zuni, Navajo, Pueblo and Hopi people will be really interested that they are extinct. 

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1.16  Cerenkov  replied to  Kavika @12.1.13    7 years ago

Good.  Then we agree that natural resources may be exploited for the benefit of our nation.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Silent
12.1.17  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Kavika @12.1.6    7 years ago

That's Bad Ass stuff there

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Expert
12.1.18  Kavika   replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.16    7 years ago

The natural resources in Utah are already being exploited without having to drill in this area...

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Participates
12.1.19  Raven Wing   replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.16    7 years ago
Then we agree that natural resources may be exploited for the benefit of our nation

Not in all cases. In too many cases today OUR natural resources are being exploited for the benefit of OTHER nations, with nothing but the damages left for OUR nation to deal with, and no monetary compensation form the other country with which to do so. Thus, it is OUR environments that are being damaged for only God knows how many millions of years, and OUR taxpayers who have to pay for the cleanup.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
12.1.20  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.14    7 years ago
Lol... So the Roman Empire is not extinct because Italians still live?! How is the Aztec Empire doing? Are they in the UN?

And yet the Italians respect the artifacts left by the Romans, as do the Greeks and even the Egyptians. 

Only the Taliban blow up historical sites like the two great Buddhas. 

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1.21  Cerenkov  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.1.20    7 years ago

Do our Islamic friends make sure to blow up area separate from archaeological sites? Or do they destroy known artifacts? That's a pretty big difference that invalidates your analogy.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1.22  Cerenkov  replied to  Raven Wing @12.1.19    7 years ago

Sorry but that's not true. Our nation profits from any extraction of our natural resources despite the false liberal talking points.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1.23  Cerenkov  replied to  Kavika @12.1.18    7 years ago

And now even more resources can benefit our nation. Huzzah!

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Silent
12.1.24  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.10    7 years ago
Yeah, it's a novelty. The planet is riddled with the remains of extinct civilizations. 

i've never read that novel ty

The planet Will Be Far Better Off

when

WE R EXTINCT,

cause muther frackers like Trump N Cump, N those with blind 20/20 incite s of the guns, focused in upon their tiny little minds, make for an easy game, as they especially N joy those of faith, as it seems easier to prey on those that pray, N, i prey it never happens to me, U C, N my prayers have never been answered, so i never question, i just X claim my POINTS iN Every direction as once they hit, Physics demeands misdirection and deflection, as energy is a continuum, so i continum to store inertia, at my local Convenience store, for lnConvenience Sakes Alive,,, till dead   on accurate

are my inaccuracies   

but, i'm supposin u find that accurate      never accu sed of rating  

so i just B rate till i A rate, or is it erie, that i irritate ? ill let you rate or berate it

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
12.1.25  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.21    7 years ago

No it doesn't because you still don't see Italians putting oil rigs ( or any other kind of structure modern) near the coliseum.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
12.1.26  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.23    7 years ago
And now even more resources can benefit our nation. Huzzah!

This is my seed. If you have nothing better to do than to try to antagonize, leave. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Expert
12.1.27  Kavika   replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.23    7 years ago

The is a oversupply of oil and has been for quite some time. Additionally there are millions of acres that have oil and gas leases through out the US that have not been explored and brought to production...

HUZZAH.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
Professor Silent
12.1.28  Cerenkov  replied to  Kavika @12.1.15    7 years ago

Cool strawman! Are they seated at the UN? Where is their capital?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
12.1.29  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.28    7 years ago

What are you talking about?

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Silent
12.1.30  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Cerenkov @12.1.28    7 years ago
Cool strawman! Are they seated at the UN? Where is their capital?

Strawman arguements make me laugh n snort, then shoot it out like a spitball, i n joy, making them swallow, but prefer humming

birds, named Robin, who's bobbin, like allure ing as it may seem, may i ask, 

y do you wish to be mean and Demean , F U Know what i dOn't meen on Average , U No I Be leave it Is unacceptable to B little the original inhabitants of this country , cuz we all Illegal Immigrants accept for very few, exceptions.

They R UNseated at the Nations United

Their Capitol was spent on small letters    written to DC, but too short, a circuit quart,

wear U can't handle the Punishment, cause

it's the CAPITOL

I enjoy Electric chairs, and long walks on the beech...

are U courting me ? or should i Judge ? as i prefer bean jury n executioner 

of semantics , but, iv'e gotta go, sew yourin luck, N Joy

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Quiet
12.1.31  pat wilson  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @12.1.20    7 years ago
And yet the Italians respect the artifacts left by the Romans, as do the Greeks and even the Egyptians. 

And the French ! There's a small, ancient roman amphitheater on the grounds of the Matisse Museum.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Guide
12.1.32  seeder  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  pat wilson @12.1.31    7 years ago

Interesting story:

Jimmy Page of Zep fame, is in a war with his neighbor over a pool his neighbor wants to put underground. Page is worried that the excavation will ruin his Grade A historic home. London, sided with Page. We are talking about a building that is about 200 years old, not our oldest Acoma Pueblo is the oldest, a continuously inhabited community in the US.

btw: Learn more about it here:

 
 

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