Taiwan defense chief: Tensions with China worst in 40 years
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Taiwanese Defense Minister Chiu Kuo-cheng said on Wednesday that tensions with China are the worst they have been in 40 years.
Chiu gave this dire assessment to lawmakers while promoting a new $8.6 billion military spending package, according to Reuters . He told lawmakers that the current situation with China was "the most serious" he has seen in his more than 40-year military career, warning of the risk of "misfire" in the Taiwan Strait.
"For me as a military man, the urgency is right in front of me," Chiu said.
China has ramped up its military provocations against Taiwan this year, and recently flew more than 50 military aircrafts into the democratically governed island's airspace.
Taiwanese Foreign Minister Joseph Wu said this week that the Taiwanese government is preparing for a potential war with China .
“The defense of Taiwan is in our own hands, and we are absolutely committed to that,” Wu said while appearing on the Australian Broadcast Corporation's "China Tonight."
“I’m sure that if China is going to launch an attack against Taiwan, I think they are going to suffer tremendously as well," Wu added.
Chiu compounded these concerns on Wednesday. As Reuters reported, the defense minister warned that China already has the capability to invade Taiwan and could mount a "full-scale" invasion by 2025.
"By 2025, China will bring the cost and attrition to its lowest. It has the capacity now, but it will not start a war easily, having to take many other things into consideration," Chiu said.
President Biden on Tuesday said he had spoken with Chinese President Xi Jinping and they had agreed to abide by the Taiwan agreement . The Taiwan Relation Act, which Biden was likely referring to, is a 1979 piece of legislation that established U.S.-China relations on the condition that Taiwan's future be determined peacefully.
Is there any doubt that China will strike Taiwan within the next 3 years? Xi says he doesn't want to leave this matter to the next generation. The CCP has the most ideal "president" that they could have ever been blessed with. As a matter of fact the pandemic had a lot to do with his victory. He is the weakest president China can ever expect to find.
The time for China to act will be within this small window.
Point of reference - generation equals 20 years - 3 years is a bit shy of the generation mark.
We bombed the shyte outta Taiwan in the 40's - along with the Chinese and a couple of other allies - only because they were "held" by Japan during WWII.
The PRC and ROC began fighting 'bout who's who in 2013 and other countries identified to side with Taiwan as a singular country. However but, the PRC believe in this thing called the "one China" - which includes Taiwan and that's where the friction is - purely political at this point.
We should be arming Taiwan to the Teeth.
Since 2010 we have sold $23 billion worth of arms to Taiwan which would include the latest on 8/4/21.
I thought we should have installed Nuclear missiles there for Taiwan's use. Taiwan shouldn't be depending on anyone else for their defense.
yeah, no provocation intended with that foolish idea, right?
50 incursions into Taiwanese airspace in a very short period of time. That isn't provocation?
Biden isn't going to do anything if China decides to invade. Taiwan and China both know it.
What could the US do under any administration?
There is no consensus that the US could defeat China if we chose to become involved.
You know we have nuclear weapons right? Nuclear deterrents have worked for a very long time. China just needs to be convinced that we would use them if they invaded Taiwan.
Funny how China has ramped up the provocations now that Biden is in office. No one is convinced Biden would do anything. Abandoning US citizens in Afghanistan and letting the Taliban dictate terms on their safety and release decreased US standing across the world.
If Australia and Japan actively participate in the defense of Taiwan as well the consensus could change.
Where did I say anything about the US and nukes? I didn't so pay attention or don't bother trying to respond with stupid shit.
If the US did choose to use nukes on China what in the fuck do you think that China would do?
China was been ramping up provocations for years, time for you to pay attention instead of running on. Are you aware that the Biden administration just sold $750 million worth of weapons to Taiwan? Also, Biden sent the highest-ranking official in decades to Taiwan.
but republican administrations always do so well in asia... /s
World War II, Korea and Vietnam, all democrats!
You do realize that the US was attacked, so I don't see any political BS to correspond with WWII.
Korea was Truman and then Eisenhower.
Vietnam, Eisenhower, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. Three Republicans and two Dems.
The negative comment implied that Republicans has something to do with getting us into wars in Asia.
Korea was Truman and then Eisenhower.
Truman got us into Korea and didn't know how to get out.
Vietnam
Vietnam was the place JFK finally decided to draw a line after getting pushed all over the world by Nikita Khrushchev. It officially got underway via the The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution under LBJ in 1964.
History can be your friend!
Yes it can, you should try it sometime.
Code of conduct:
1. No direct or indirect derogatory references to other members
Morning...hmmm don't think we have much to contribute...but the way China has been rabbiting on you would swear we could take China on single handed..never seen a country so obsessed with what or not we are doing...
It will be a case of one in all in...will not be just us and Japan...New Zealand India UK Canada and other countries will go in...hope China realises that..will not be just in one front they could be fighting it could be several.
But the way things are in China at the moment they need to get their power supply sorted...seems to be a massive shortage of coal at the moment...not even Russia and Mongolia can supply their needs..and have to resort using Australian coal...now that must really burn...
:LOL. Brilliant idea, except that China has nuclear ICBMs as well, and if they can guide a rocket to land on Mars they can guide their nuclear ICBMs to land on NYC, L.A., Washington D.C., Chicago, Houston, etc. etc, so HELLO THERE, eh? Are you really wishing for the end of life on Earth?
No it didn't. It said nothing about getting us into wars in Asia.
((*^%^%#@#$))
[deleted]
Yep, just like Russia should have installed Nuclear missiles on Cuba for Cuba's use. Cuba shouldn't be depending on anyone else for its defence.
They did! Did you forget?
Always best to actually see how strong the Taiwan military is vs the CCP.
If Taiwan ever launched a nuclear attack on CCP it would cease to exist within 5 minutes.
So the answer is to do nothing and watch China take over Taiwan?
That will confirm to the whole world that the US is nothing more than a paper lion.
Wonder how many wars the next president will have to start to remove the stigma?
So with your vast military experience, what do you think we should do. Are you willing to sacrifice thousands if not tens of thousands of American troops?
Are you willing to serve and fight in that war, how about your kids or grandkids.
Talk is cheap if one has never that to face the devil.
Already stated it in 3.1.2.
We have nuclear weapons. More than enough to take out China, Russia, and anyone else that decides to join in. But countries have to be convinced that we would use them. Right now they aren't convinced Biden would do anything. Mutual assured destruction has worked for a very long time; there is no reason it will not work now- except for the fact the US has an exceedingly weak, incompetent President.
How do you propose to do that?
So you avoided my question, no surprise there.
I didn't say a damn thing about the US and nukes. I said that if Taiwan launched a nuclear attack on China they would cease to exist in 5 minutes.
Exceeding weak president, of course, that's you're opinion which are like assholes, everyone has one.
I didn't avoid your question. I stated a fact. How many countries in NATO are under our nuclear umbrella? Think Russia gives a shit about NATO? Without the US the NATO is nothing. Russia knows damn well who it is squaring off against if it attacks any NATO country. The same thing should apply to Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and any of our other allies in the area with China. Allowing them to think they will be allowed to continually increase provocations with no response will only end in disaster.
Seems China has an asshole as well. Their asshole is telling them it is OK to ramp up provocations against all of our allies. That points to weak leadership in Washington; and that means Biden.
Yes, you did, and here it is again.
As I said before China has been ramping up the provocations long before Biden.
Heard of the Cold War? Think the former Soviet Union wasn't convinced we would wipe them off the map if they tried to invade any of our allies? How did any of those Presidents convince the Russians of that?
It takes backbone; which Biden completely lacks (the only time he shows one is against US citizens.). Removing him from office would be the first step. No one is going to believe Sleepy Lyin China Joe Biden will ever do anything. Unfortunately Harris the human vanishing act is next in line. No one is going to believe she has any backbone either. So the world will have to wait for the next POTUS.
Once we get a competent leader; or at least one with a backbone and functioning brain.
1) Force the Taliban to hand over every US citizen, Green Card holder, or those that aided us. No more BS. No negotiating. We tell them US special forces are coming in to go from city to city to get our people out, period. Any attacks on them result in the Taliban being driven from power. This time no allowing them drive to Afghanistan. We blow up every last damn one of their caravans out. If Pakistan tries to shelter them we cut off all aid; and put them on notice. Either they can deal with the Taliban (and every other terrorist faction that associates with them) themselves or we will. Pakistan is not a good US ally, we shouldn't be giving them aid to begin with. We will see if money or military goods mean more to them than their terrorist friends.
2) Secure all of our damn borders. Our laws mean something. We will know of and have control over the entry and exit of every last individual crossing our borders.
3) Form an Alliance similar to NATO with Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, and any other allies in the area. Put them all under our military umbrella just like NATO countries are. Make sure China, Russia, and North Korea understand that an attack on one is an attack on all.
4) That will get China's and Russia's attention. The President then needs to lay down the law with both of them. We had set boundaries before Biden; and they will be reinstated.
You still don't get it. There won't be a damn war, period.
It will either be nuclear or nothing. With cringe worthy Biden it will be nothing.
No really? Wouldn't have known by all of those man made islands they created that they put military bases on; and them trying enforce new zones of influence around them that violate countries rights for fishing, oil production, and cargo movement. Haven't you noticed they have ramped those provocations up under Biden? They know he is weak. Biden just keeps proving it.
Good to know that Biden won't start a nuclear war.
LOL, how stupid can your comments get. The Chinese built those islands and have been reinforcing them for years. Not one president has done a damn thing about them, including Trump.
Since you keep avoiding my question I'll take it that you wouldn't put yourself on the line or your kids or grandkids.
All talk, no action. Keep bringing up the rear, Ronin.
Yeah, confirm what's already suspected.
I doubt that Biden is stupid enough to threaten the end of life on Earth, but Milley, who would have been more in the know, was worried enough about what the previous POTUS was capable of doing.
Nuclear weapons are a deterrent for the nations that have them and the means to deliver them. A nuclear power may attack a non nuclear power if they are convinced that another nuclear power won’t try to use the threat in the defense of the non nuclear nation and if they do threaten it, test to see if nuclear power b would risk itself under MAD to defend the smaller power. A defense of Taiwan by Taiwan supported by naval and air power of not just the USA, but of the UK, Australia, Japan, other regional nations willing to make a stand for democracy and free markets.
Everyone I know and everyone I have ever known in China would laugh their asses off at that. Of course it's hard to know what it's like in China when you've never been there, eh? And it's kind of ignorant to criticize what you don't know.
I can only assume that China has reached it's peak as a society. I'll bet the average Chinese citizen has never lived better. They have most of our manufacturing jobs and control many important industries. When it comes to certain freedoms the people are oppressed. I'm sure some don't care about that as much as the standard of living. (I'm not criticizing the Chinese people, Buzz, as you know.)
It's that brutal regime!
Vic, you're hit the nail on the head about the fact that the Chinese people are happy with their lives. You have to realize that these people have never voted and don't even think about it, so it's not something that they miss, or feel deprived of, because they're happy with the life they have, and see little or no reason to be critical of their government. Americans think that because Chinese people don't have the right to vote, or to choose their leaders, that they are oppressed, but they don't consider themselves oppressed at all. There isn't going to be a revolution because the kids are limited to 3 hours of video games a week - in fact a lot of people in the west think that's probably a good idea. Some might have bitched that the government censored Chloe Zhao (the Director of Nomadland) but they're not going to do a protest march about it. The Chinese people are relatively obedient, and a main reason why they have done such a good job of containing the virus is because they are more concerned about the common good than they are about their own individual rights. I know China isn't Utopia, it has its warts, but is there a nation in the world that doesn't?
I think we agree on the Chinese people and we can also agree that there are people everywhere who would trade a lot of the "rights" that the liberal west thinks are so important for prosperity and security.
Chalking the CCP up to a few warts is where we disagree.
Did I say "a few"? I don't think I did, but yet again words are put in my mouth that I did not say.
And the people of Taiwan are part of the liberal west that has come to value their rights that are so important for individual prosperity and security. The people of Taiwan have every bit as much a right to democracy, the vote, elected representation, individual rights, economic choices, religious liberty, and freedom of association and expression as the people of Canada do.
Despite that fact there are some here who can't bring themselves to say that they wouldn't use nuclear weapons under any circumstances.
Nuclear attack? ANY attack.
No kidding, Just like the US could have nuked and wiped out China during the Korean War!
Might makes right?
A Yankee motto.
In your dreams...that would require 10s of thousands of well placed nukes delivered by air planes with limited
range.
We only had 300 nukes and our planes could only reach parts of their coasts.
Thank goodness Eisenhower knew that...
You mean Truman
Eisenhower inherited Korea from Truman on 01/20/1953
and actually took MacArthur's calls and some advice on Korea from Douglas,
but not about nukes.
Truman had already publicly stated he would consider nukes in Korea
but he also told reporters they were too indiscriminate to ever use again.
The armistice establishing the DMZ was signed in July of 1953.
Eisenhower largely supported the peace plan and visited American troops
as the President elect in November 1952.
It was Truman who fired MacArthur and for the record it was Truman who once said "He's trying to start WWIII, I'm trying to prevent it."
Truman also said,
Interesting POTUS, sacrificed his political career to do the right thing, prevent WWIII.
There is no way Taiwan could ever beat China militarily in a conventional or nuclear confrontation unless China screwed up very badly from the get go. Taiwan could bloody China's nose and hurt them very badly, but never win on their own. Not without help from allies in other parts of the world and regional powers on Taiwan's side.
Exactly. The ROC leader did say that they if attacked would fight to the end, meaning the defense of their freedom and democracy that would leave little or nothing of any economic value for China to occupy while causing maximum possible economic damage to China during such a war China starts while he was in Australia seeking military and intelligence support.
The CCP want's nothing more than for Taiwan to shoot down a communist aircraft because if they do then the CCP, in their eyes, would have the justification to to stage a all out assault on Taiwan and claim self defense. My opinion is that that is one reason why the CCP is doing it's level best to provoke a Taiwanese response by all these incursions and it is totally pissing off Xi that it has not worked so far!
This is partly true but both Taiwan and CCP are aware that there are always an unknown number of
American and UK Boomers in the S China Sea and Pacific
targeting the CCP and NK.
Mutually assured destruction will probably always prevail.
Taiwan has to tolerate the testing the same way we tolerate Russian games around Alaska and northern Japan.
Really? Did he tell you that? I didn't know you were communicating with him.
If you had bothered to read the entire comment you would have noticed that I was merely stating a personal opinion, not that it was a incontrovertible fact. Are you yourself in communication with him yourself that says otherwise?
I apologize. It was your opinion. And no, I really don't communicate at all with Xi Jinping.
Apology accepted.
Meta cleaned up from thread 3.1.
The real question is, is not what China is going to do or what Taiwan is going to do, it's what the US is going to do if China attacks Taiwan.
1st off if China wanted to physically take Taiwan they could start with the Taiwan islands right off the coast of China, 2 miles from mainland China, they are known as the Kinmen island and have a Taiwan population of over 125,000 people. If China decided to take them by force there is nothing Taiwan or the US could do about it.
IF China attacks Taiwan and the US intervenes what will the cost be to the US? IMO and in the opinion of many military experts, it will be severe in the number of casualties, and there is no guarantee that we would prevail.
Those that think other powers will join us need to take a long hard look at their capabilities and or their constitution (Japan). Whatever the outcome of others joining us in fighting China best remember that it will be the US that leads the way with the most military commitment thus we will suffer the most casualties.
It's quite easy to say we are going to commit to defending Taiwan but one has to ask when the first US ship is destroyed or plane shot down what will the reaction be in the US?
Those on NT that have actually been in combat might have a very different opinion than those that have never been in the military.
The Art of War by Sun Tzu has many lessons in it.
On a personal note, I hope MAD will prevail and there will be no military confrontation.
What can it do? Do you really think the US would go to war with China over Taiwan? Don't you think China knows that?
BTW I don't think China cares what the US thinks. They just grin and remind us in their own way that some rogue Chinese Colonel somewhere might just enable another strage virus.
It would seem from the comments that there are those that are willing to go to war with China over Taiwan. So what is your decision, would you go to war with China over Taiwan?
No. I don't see anyone here who advocates for going to war with China over Taiwan and I am certain that Joe Biden wouldn't.
XX and Ronin seem to make that argument in the comments.
Is that a no that you wouldn't go to war with China of Taiwan?
Correct. Nor would I go to war to save the pacifist nation of Germany, yet we've had troops there since 1945.
We have troops all over the world, over 150,000 in 100 plus countries. Who do we defend and who do we not defend?
We defend US interests. Nuclear war in defense of another country is not in US interests. It's the unspoken truth. Even back in the 60's when the US had nuclear superiority, JFK questioned the idea of going to nuclear war in defense of others.
We only hoped our enemies believe we would. I think they believed it under Reagan and Trump, but now the jig is up, so to speak. Nobody believes the facade anymore.
I heard someone say the other day that we have troops all over the world to protect their borders but our southern border? Nah.
I think there are two reasons those troops are still there: 1) to project power (something the US still does well.) and 2) To make our enemies think twice about attacking such places.
As for the southern border, Biden's handlers want to change the voters & the demographics of America. Based on how many have already been allowed in during Biden's first 9 months, I'd say we are on our way to one party rule.
What US interest and in what country. Not Germany it seems, how about Italy, Spain, UK, African countries? We are in well over 100 countries.
As Vic said. You let them in one, and two three four five six and so on are next.
Nuclear war would only extend to our own protection. I doubt Joe Biden would ever push the button even if we were attacked.
It's fairly simple.
An opinion and not one that is based in reality.
Jaysus, are we back to the Domino Theory?
Problem?
I would say so since the Dominio theory lead to the Vietnam war that cost Americans 58,220 deaths and many more since the war ended that died of Agent Orange and other causes that stemmed from the Vietnam war.
How well did the USSR do with all of her neatly stacked dominoes?
How would one arrive at the "domino theory" from what I said?
Got me?
I was hoping you could answer. I need an opinion I value.
Those are not common enough here.
What will prevail is economic policy. China is our biggest importer. Our economy drives China's new middle class. Any serious disruption to that would have profound consequences for decades.
That is true but China trade with the EU is even larger and their inter-Asia trade is also huge.
With that in mind, I do agree that economic policy/trade will prevail and if not the consequences are mind-boggling.
That's where the Obama Admin tried to reign in China's bullshit with the Pan Pacific Partnership. Everything the right wanted except Obama's name on it.
Exactly, the TPP was a winner for the US except for the dumbasses.
MAD has many weaknesses. For one thing all sides need to believe it. More importantly, the coronavirus has demonstrated that there are ways to defy it.
MAD has worked for decades why would it not work?
Biological warfare took place long before the coronavirus. The US worked on biological warfare from the end of WWII until around 1970 and I think that the measure we signed to stop has loopholes that we use.
Are you ready for a hypothetical?
Let us assume that you are president. The CIA comes to you and says that China deliberately infected the US with covid.
What would you do?
Assume that Communism had been defeated in the 40's and Hitler emerged with nuclear weapons. Tell us about your diplomacy with him?
You don't want to say. I understand.
How about we play with the cards as laid out on the table.
Are you up to that?
Here they are ; We had an agreement with Russia on nuclear weapons which controlled and put restrictions on them between the two countries. China was not a party to the agreement so their arsenal kept growing.
"China has invested heavily in new technologies, with a stated intent to complete the modernization of its forces by 2035 and to field a 'world-class military' by 2049," Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin testified in June."
They now have a 742 ship navy compared to our 460 ship Navy.
We have been suffering from a pandemic for almost 2 years that China could have prevented from being a world-wide problem.
Please tell us, under what circumstances would we ever engage in nuclear war with Communist China?
I don't play hypotheticals, Vic. Way too many variables.
Didn't the British give smallpox infected blankets to Chief Pontiac?
Didn't Andrew Jackson do something similar?
That's a rather unfair comparison.
The USN is a true blue water Navy.
China is not. A large portion of their fleet is for coastal defense.
The USN has 490 ships including reserves, not inactive ships sitting in the Philly Navy yard, Bremerton, etc.
Add 164 Coast Guard ships to the US totals.
Start adding in obvious allies like the UK with their 75 blue navy ships
and China loses the advantage of numbers rather quickly.
Regardless of the source, half of our pandemic damages are self inflicted by those that refuse vaccination.
Do you think the Chinese are that devious or that lucky?
It's a shoddy debating trick, your opponent hopes you run with it.
Yes, more is not necessarily better. The US Navy Is without a doubt one of the three historical greats.
A US nuclear sub runs into ''something'' underwater in the South China Sea...
Sponge Bob Square Pants?
Actually, I think it was Larry the lobster...
Lucky for those on board the sub, and for the rest of the world, that whatever it was didn't cause an explosion, which could possibly have been the match that would light the fire to end life on Earth. Those who play with fire do tend to get burned.
Hopefully it was just a beaked Whale.
Normally low frequency sonar makes beaked whales and humpbacks flee as quickly as possible.
Sometimes they attack .
Hard to believe any sonar would not reveal something as big as a whale or another submarine...
Back in the day it could have been a submarine net. They are not used any longer but this is interesting I'd love to find out what in the world they ran into.
Same here. I've been thinking long and hard to try and figure out what it might be that they ran into. It might even be some underwater relic of some sort that has ben down there for years an no one found it. Hopefully they can pinpoint where it happened so they can see if they can find out what is was.
There is no fire to be played with in what are by all objective legal and legitimate standards international waters of the open seas.
So you say.
Morning....probably ran into the Russians...
Hydrothermal vent chimney?
It is in the Ring of Fire zone...