Is a Civil War Ahead?

  

Category:  Op/Ed

Via:  john-russell  •  3 weeks ago  •  104 comments

Is a Civil War Ahead?
Unlike Russia or Turkey, the United States is blessed with a deep experience of democratic rule, no matter how flawed. The courts, the Democratic Party, local election officials in both parties, the military, the media—no matter how deeply flawed—proved in 2020 that it was possible to resist the darkest ambitions of an autocratic President. The guardrails of democracy and stability are hardly unassailable, but they are stronger than anything that Vladimir Putin or Recep Tayyip Erdoǧan has to...

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



www.newyorker.com   /news/daily-comment/is-a-civil-war-ahead

Is a Civil War Ahead?


David Remnick 7-8 minutes   1/5/2022




The edifice of American exceptionalism has always wobbled on a shoddy foundation of self-delusion, and yet most Americans have readily accepted the commonplace that the United States is the world’s oldest continuous democracy. That serene assertion has now collapsed.

On January 6, 2021, when white supremacists, militia members, and   MAGA   faithful took inspiration from the President and   stormed the Capitol   in order to overturn the results of the 2020 Presidential election, leaving legislators and the Vice-President essentially held hostage, we ceased to be a full democracy. Instead, we now inhabit a liminal status that scholars call “anocracy.” That is, for the first time in two hundred years, we are suspended between democracy and autocracy. And that sense of uncertainty radically heightens the likelihood of episodic bloodletting in America, and even the risk of civil war.

This is the compelling argument of “ How Civil Wars Start ,” a new book by Barbara F. Walter, a political scientist at the University of California San Diego. Walter served on an advisory committee to the C.I.A. called the Political Instability Task Force, which studies the roots of political violence in nations from Sri Lanka to the former Yugoslavia. Citing data compiled by the Center for Systemic Peace, which the task force uses to analyze political dynamics in foreign countries, Walter explains that the “honor” of being the oldest continuous democracy is now held by Switzerland, followed by New Zealand. In the U.S., encroaching instability and illiberal currents present a sad picture. As Walter writes, “We are no longer a peer to nations like Canada, Costa Rica, and Japan.”

In her book and in a conversation for this week’s New Yorker Radio Hour, Walter made it clear that she wanted to avoid “an exercise in fear-mongering”; she is wary of coming off as sensationalist. In fact, she takes pains to avoid overheated speculation and relays her warning about the potential for civil war in clinical terms. Yet, like those who spoke up clearly about the dangers of global warming decades ago, Walter delivers a grave message that we ignore at our peril. So much remains in flux. She is careful to say that a twenty-first-century American civil war would bear no resemblance to the consuming and symmetrical conflict that was played out on the battlefields of the eighteen-sixties. Instead she foresees, if the worst comes about, an era of scattered yet persistent acts of violence: bombings, political assassinations, destabilizing acts of asymmetric warfare carried out by extremist groups that have coalesced via social media. These are relatively small, loosely aligned collections of self-aggrandizing warriors who sometimes call themselves “accelerationists.” They have convinced themselves that the only way to hasten the toppling of an irredeemable, non-white, socialist republic is through violence and other extra-political means.

Walter makes the case that, as long as the country fails to fortify its democratic institutions, it will endure threats such as the one that opens her book: the attempt, in 2020, by a militia group in Michigan known as the Wolverine Watchmen to kidnap Governor Gretchen Whitmer. The Watchmen despised Whitmer for having instituted anti- COVID   measures in the state—restrictions that they saw not as attempts to protect the public health but as intolerable violations of their liberty. Trump’s publicly stated disdain for Whitmer could not have discouraged these maniacs. The F.B.I., fortunately, foiled the Wolverines, but, inevitably, if there are enough such plots—enough shots fired—some will find their target.

America has always suffered acts of political violence—the terrorism of the Klan; the   1921 massacre   of the Black community in Tulsa; the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. Democracy has never been a settled, fully stable condition for all Americans, and yet the Trump era is distinguished by the consuming resentment of many right-wing, rural whites who fear being “replaced” by immigrants and people of color, as well as a Republican Party leadership that bows to its most autocratic demagogue and no longer seems willing to defend democratic values and institutions. Like other scholars, Walter points out that there have been early signs of the current insurgency, including the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, in 1995, which killed a hundred and sixty-eight people. But it was the election of   Barack Obama   that most vividly underlined the rise of a multiracial democracy and was taken as a threat by many white Americans who feared losing their majority status. Walter writes that there were roughly forty-three militia groups operating in the U.S. when Obama was elected, in 2008; three years later there were more than three hundred.

Walter has studied the preconditions of civil strife all over the world. And she says that, if we strip away our self-satisfaction and July 4th mythologies and review a realistic checklist, “assessing each of the conditions that make civil war likely,” we have to conclude that the United States “has entered very dangerous territory.” She is hardly alone in that conclusion. The International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance in Stockholm recently listed the U.S. as a “backsliding” democracy.

The backsliding was never more depressingly evident than in the weeks   after   January 6th, when Mitch McConnell, after initially criticizing   Donald Trump ’s role in the insurrection, said that he would support him if he were the Party’s nominee in 2024. Having stared into the abyss, he pursued the darkness.

Not so long ago, Walter might have been considered an alarmist. In 2018, Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt published their Trump-era study, “ How Democracies Die ,” one of many books that sought to awaken American readers to the reality that the rule of law was under assault just as it was in much of the world. But, as Levitsky told me, “Even we couldn’t have imagined January 6th.” Levitsky said that until he read Walter and other well-respected scholars on the subject, he would have thought that warnings of civil war were overwrought.

Unlike Russia or Turkey, the United States is blessed with a deep experience of democratic rule, no matter how flawed. The courts, the Democratic Party, local election officials in both parties, the military, the media—no matter how   deeply   flawed—proved in 2020 that it was possible to resist the darkest ambitions of an autocratic President. The guardrails of democracy and stability are hardly unassailable, but they are stronger than anything that Vladimir Putin or Recep Tayyip Erdoǧan has to contend with. In fact, in his attempt to be reëlected, Trump did draw the largest Republican vote ever—and he still lost by seven million votes. That, too, stands in the way of fatalism.




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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  seeder  JohnRussell    3 weeks ago

Blame it all on the replacement theory and white grievance. Some people think it isnt clear yet, but it will be. 

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
1.1  bbl-1  replied to  JohnRussell @1    3 weeks ago

White grievance?  Translation:  Poor white folks conveniently angered by rich white folks who more conveniently point the blame at those not responsible.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
1.1.1  Krishna  replied to  bbl-1 @1.1    3 weeks ago
Poor white folks

Well, let's just say that the bulk of Trump's supporters "aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer":

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
1.1.2  bbl-1  replied to  Krishna @1.1.1    3 weeks ago

Neither is their leader.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
1.1.3  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Krishna @1.1.1    3 weeks ago

But conservatives insist the folk in this video don't exist among them and there's just a handful of kooks on the fringe that believe in Qanon conspiracy theories, so this must be a 'deep fake' with green screens and CGI to fit the leftist 'strawman' mischaracterization of good, kind, intelligent right wing conservative Christians... /s

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
1.1.4  Sparty On  replied to  Krishna @1.1.1    3 weeks ago

Lol ....keep underestimating people who are simply not of like mind with you.    I love it!

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Sophomore Expert
1.1.5  al Jizzerror  replied to  Sparty On @1.1.4    3 weeks ago
keep underestimating people

So, Sparty, did Trump lose in 2020 by 7 million votes or did Trump "win by a landslide"?

Do you believe Trump's "big lie"?

Or do believe that Trump is a big liar?

Asking for a friend.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
1.1.6  Krishna  replied to  Sparty On @1.1.4    3 weeks ago

What, exactly, do you love ❤  about it?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.1.7  Texan1211  replied to  Krishna @1.1.6    3 weeks ago
What, exactly, do you love ❤  about it?

What I especially love is the befuddled looks on the faces of Democrats when they realize they don't have any solutions and that they may have been outsmarted by the very people they despise and look down upon!

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
1.1.8  Sparty On  replied to  Krishna @1.1.6    3 weeks ago

Self explanatory to most  .....

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
1.2  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @1    3 weeks ago
Blame it all on the replacement theory

I have to admit it-- I didn't even know what "replacement theory" was until see the coverage of White Supremists during the C'villy rally. (In fact i hadn't even heard the term before that).

‘Jews will not replace us’: Why white supremacists go after Jews

384

Several hundred white nationalists and white supremacists carrying torches march in a parade at the University of Virginia.

Jews and non-Jews are drawn to debates about whether Jews are white. It’s the sort of question that   captivates   academics and activists, roping in everyone from Israeli “Wonder Woman” actress   Gal Gadot   to African American literary luminary   James Baldwin .

On the one hand, Jews have been discriminated against for centuries, including by white cultures from Nazi Germany to the United States. On the other, many Jews have attained a significant measure of acceptance, and many can often “pass” as white when not wearing traditional Jewish symbols.

Implicitly at stake in this argument is whether efforts to combat racism should prioritize prejudice against Jews or whether other persecuted populations should take precedence.

Personally, I’ve found this debate beside the point, and this weekend’s disturbing events in Charlottesville perfectly illustrate why: The white supremacists have already made their decision.

When white nationalists descended upon the historic Virginia city to protest the removal of a statue of Confederate general Robert E. Lee, their “Unite the Right” rally gathered a veritable who’s who of top neo-Nazis in the United States, including Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard David Duke and alt-right leading light Richard Spencer, among others.

They immediately went after the Jews. At their Friday night rally at the University of Virginia, the white nationalists brandished torches and chanted anti-Semitic and Nazi slogans, including “blood and soil” (an English rendering of the Nazi “blut und boden”) and “Jews will not replace us” — all crafted to cast Jews as foreign interlopers who need to be expunged.

The attendees proudly displayed giant swastikas and wore shirts emblazoned with quotes from Adolf Hitler. One banner read, “Jews are Satan’s children.”

“The truth is,” Duke told a large crowd Saturday, “the American media, and the American political system, and the American Federal Reserve, is dominated by a tiny minority: the Jewish Zionist cause.” Addressing another group, Richard Spencer mocked Charlottesville’s Jewish mayor, Mike Signer. “Little Mayor Signer — ‘See-ner’ — how do you pronounce this little creep’s name?” Spencer asked. The crowd responded by chanting, “Jew, Jew, Jew.” In TV interviews, attendees were not shy about their anti-Semitism.

Some of the videos edited that out, but there are some where you can hear them chanting "Jews Will Not Replace Us".

 
 
 
XXJefferson51
Senior Guide
1.3  XXJefferson51  replied to  JohnRussell @1    3 weeks ago

What is it with liberals/progressives and all this talk of civil war?  

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Sophomore Expert
1.3.1  al Jizzerror  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.3    3 weeks ago
What is it with liberals/progressives and all this talk of civil war?

It is the Magats who love to talk about civil war.

Here is one of Trump's Jan. 6th terrorists wearing the Civil War shirt he had made in advance (which proves the insurrection was planned).

512

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.3.2  Texan1211  replied to  al Jizzerror @1.3.1    3 weeks ago
Here is one of Trump's Jan. 6th terrorists wearing the Civil War shirt he had made in advance (which proves the insurrection was planned).

You should let the folks on Pelosi's committee know about your evidence. I am sure they can use all the help they can get, and this might be right up their alley!

Heck, maybe before it is all over, someone somewhere at some time may even get indicted for insurrection with all that evidence.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Sophomore Expert
1.3.3  al Jizzerror  replied to  Texan1211 @1.3.2    3 weeks ago
evidence

You liked that?

Here's his buddies at the Jan 6th insurrection. 

It was planned in far enough in advance to have their Jan 6th Civil War sweatshirts made.

512

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
1.3.4  Krishna  replied to  XXJefferson51 @1.3    3 weeks ago
What is it with liberals/progressives and all this talk of civil war?

Please don't tell him!

Don't you see-- his seemingly innocent question..its a trap!

(Remember, "What happens in Langley ,,stays in Langley!)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
1.3.5  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @1.3.4    3 weeks ago
What is it with liberals/progressives and all this talk of civil war?
Please don't tell him!

Don't you see-- his seemingly innocent question..its a trap!

(Remember, "What happens in Langley ,,stays in Langley!)

Especially within the confines of the dreaded Sector 4013-9, Dept DORD*, Room no. t9941-05.

ALL FOR ONE..AND ONE FOR ALL!

(Honi soit qui mal y pense!)

___________________________________

*DORD == "The Department of Redundency Department"

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.3.6  Texan1211  replied to  al Jizzerror @1.3.3    3 weeks ago

As before, please present your outstanding evidence to Pelosi us committee.

Thank you!

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4  devangelical  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 weeks ago

meh, I'm not worried, because I know most of these loud mouthed right wing revolutionaries are relics long past their expiration dates that cannot fight a war of insurgency. I was given a .22 when I was 8 years old and I spent my summers on my grandfather's cattle ranch turning pasture vermin into compost with my cousins. in the last 12 years I've probably been to pistol ranges over 500 times with the last 2 years concentrating on regaining my ambidextrous ability that I thought I had lost 30 years ago due to a work accident. I'm ready for the unamerican trump traitors should they ever move beyond their cowardly bluster, and from what I've observed, they won't need to be led by much and they're a lot bigger than prairie dogs.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
1.4.1  Sparty On  replied to  devangelical @1.4    2 weeks ago

Pack a lunch dev, pack a lunch

 
 
 
GregTx
Sophomore Participates
1.4.2  GregTx  replied to  devangelical @1.4    2 weeks ago

Those prairie dogs ever shoot back?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4.3  devangelical  replied to  Sparty On @1.4.1    2 weeks ago

[removed]

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4.4  devangelical  replied to  GregTx @1.4.2    2 weeks ago

they never had a chance to swing up their AR's...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.4.5  Texan1211  replied to  GregTx @1.4.2    2 weeks ago
Those prairie dogs ever shoot back?

Oh, heck no!

Internet tough guys wouldn't be so dang tough if someone actually shot BACK at them!

 
 
 
GregTx
Sophomore Participates
1.4.6  GregTx  replied to  devangelical @1.4.4    2 weeks ago

original

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.4.7  Texan1211  replied to  GregTx @1.4.6    2 weeks ago

I wonder if the little creature would have any qualms about shooting someone in the back as they ran away in terror?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.4.8  devangelical  replied to  GregTx @1.4.6    2 weeks ago

that's funny, got any pictures of a magatard with a crater where his forehead used to be?

 
 
 
GregTx
Sophomore Participates
1.4.9  GregTx  replied to  devangelical @1.4.8    2 weeks ago

No, do you?.....

original

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.4.10  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @1.4.8    2 weeks ago

OIP.GQGwJnIT143y6YhrQw0rdgHaGw?w=154&h=167&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=1.25&pid=1.7

OIP.J6djRe2FDx4wRRM1PVamDwHaHY?w=166&h=180&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=1.25&pid=1.7

OIP.3aG3Uhe_Ed38oXAIg0Q_iAHaFj?w=241&h=181&c=7&r=0&o=5&dpr=1.25&pid=1.7

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
2  bbl-1    3 weeks ago

Another American Civil War?  

I hardly think so.  Combat for Trump?  You got to be kidding.  'The Mar-a-Lago flim flam man' has flimmed his last flam.  He has court dates in his future and Americans don't like a whiner and a cry baby.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
2.1  Krishna  replied to  bbl-1 @2    3 weeks ago
The Mar-a-Lago flim flam man' has flimmed his last flam.

So does that mean he may now be considered to be totally in-flam-able?

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
3  Hal A. Lujah    3 weeks ago

I don’t know about full blown civil war, but I can envision assassination attempts and a serious uptick in cowardly domestic terrorism as a response to future Republican defeats.

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
3.1  bbl-1  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @3    3 weeks ago

That will be all 'The MAGA' has left.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
3.2  Krishna  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @3    3 weeks ago
I don’t know about full blown civil war, but I can envision assassination attempts and a serious uptick in cowardly domestic terrorism as a response to future Republican defeats.

Well, let's hope no one attempts to assassinate the ex-president. 

(Of course now that he's ex-president it actually wouldn't be all that hard to do....so let's pray he remains safe!)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
3.3  Krishna  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @3    3 weeks ago
I don’t know about full blown civil war, but I can envision assassination attempts and a serious uptick in cowardly domestic terrorism as a response to future Republican defeats.

Well, anyone remember this?

(Its satire by Trevor Moore and his comedy/satire group called "The Whitest Boys U Know")

The Whitest Kids U'Know Sketch for "I Want To Kill The President" from Season 1.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
3.3.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @3.3    3 weeks ago

I first saw that long ago when GWBush was president. The video was highly popular,,, in certain dark corners of the Internet.

Then Obama became president, abd its poularity declined significantly...

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
3.3.2  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Krishna @3.3.1    3 weeks ago

I love WKUK.  RIP Trevor.

If Trump we’re assassinated it would likely be by a former supporter infuriated by his vaccine comments. Chances are they would have some kind of Christian iconography tattooed on them as well.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.3.3  devangelical  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @3.3.2    3 weeks ago

I agree. if trump gets clipped, it will be by a disgruntled former supporter. zero loss to america.

 
 
 
Hal A. Lujah
Professor Expert
3.3.4  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  devangelical @3.3.3    3 weeks ago

It might even be Alex Jones on the trigger.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Masters Principal
4  Nerm_L    3 weeks ago

How would storming the Capitol change the outcome of the election?  The only way storming the Capitol would succeed is Congress already having the ability to overturn an election.  The whole narrative depends upon the idea that Joe Biden could not have been inaugurated without Congressional certification of the election.

As far as a civil war goes, we're already in the midst of a civil war.  Cities refusing to enforce Federal laws and refusing to cooperate with the Federal government is tacit secession.  States and cities are already challenging the authority and legitimacy of the Federal government.  That started in Democratic controlled states and has begun to snowball out of control.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Masters Guide
4.1  Drakkonis  replied to  Nerm_L @4    3 weeks ago

It seems to me that if there is a civil war it will be because the media is pushing for one. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
4.1.1  Krishna  replied to  Drakkonis @4.1    3 weeks ago

It seems to me that if there is a civil war it will be because the media is pushing for one. 

Well, actually that's not surprising in the least!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
4.1.2  Krishna  replied to  Drakkonis @4.1    3 weeks ago
It seems to me that if there is a civil war it will be because the media is pushing for one.

"The media"?

Just curious-- do you really believe that Fox news is not considered to be "media"? 

(or are you just pretending???)

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
4.1.3  bbl-1  replied to  Drakkonis @4.1    3 weeks ago

Yes.  Some of 'the media' is reporting on the possibility and some of 'the media' is pushing the probabilities.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Masters Guide
4.1.4  Drakkonis  replied to  Krishna @4.1.2    3 weeks ago
"The media"?

Yes, the media. Specifically, the news media, which I presumed would not be necessary to point out. 

Just curious-- do you really believe that Fox news is not considered to be "media"? 

Just curious-- have you stopped beating your wife yet? 

If that question is too subtle a point for you, I'm pointing out that your question is what's called a loaded question. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
4.1.5  Krishna  replied to  Drakkonis @4.1.4    3 weeks ago

Just curious-- have you stopped beating your wife yet? 

Why no-- I'm still at it-- with both of them.

All the more intensely with time!

P.S: Your analogy is waaay off-- that not the correct analogy.

Why? Because "Have you stopped beating your wife" is a "trick question" however you answer you look bad.

HOWEVER: If you say that yes of course, you know Fox news is "the media" you don't look bad-- its a simple matter of fact, not judgement. Its not a loaded question in the least!

So it's not a loaded Q, & doesn't make you look bad.

(However the other answer-- that you believe Fox is not media-- is a bit silly.

Capice?

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Masters Guide
4.1.6  Drakkonis  replied to  Krishna @4.1.5    3 weeks ago

Try looking up "What is a loaded question." I even typed the question for you so you can copy and paste it. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1.7  devangelical  replied to  Drakkonis @4.1    3 weeks ago
It seems to me that if there is a civil war it will be because the media is pushing for one. 

I'm guessing you don't listen to that much rwnj radio, with the majority of those network/affiliates owned by religious wackos.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Masters Guide
4.1.8  Drakkonis  replied to  devangelical @4.1.7    2 weeks ago
I'm guessing you don't listen to that much rwnj radio, with the majority of those network/affiliates owned by religious wackos.

No, I don't listen to them. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.9  Texan1211  replied to  Drakkonis @4.1.8    2 weeks ago
No, I don't listen to them. 

Don't need to, apparently loads of progressive liberals do daily!

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
4.1.10  bbl-1  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.9    2 weeks ago

"Keep your friends close.  Keep your enemies closer."  Vito Corleone.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.11  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @4.1.10    2 weeks ago

Helsinki.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
4.2  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @4    3 weeks ago
How would storming the Capitol change the outcome of the election? 

Because there's a rather unusual law (still on the books) that the election results have to e officially certified on Jan 6th.-- that was the ritual led by the Vice President (in this case it was Mike Pence).  Trump and his ass-lickers were hoping that by storming the capitol they could forceably interrupt that. 

In fact, because it was a the duty of the Vice-President to lead the official tally. In addition to violently assaulted police officers, may of them were chanting ""Hang Mike Pence"-- and even erected a gallows out side!

Trump defended Jan. 6 Capitol rioters chanting ‘hang Mike Pence,’ called anger over Biden election result ‘common sense’

KEY POINTS
    • Former President Donald Trump in an interview earlier this year defended Jan. 6 Capitol rioters who chanted about hanging his vice president, Mike Pence.
    • Trump said the mob’s anger was warranted by what he called fraudulent ballots that elected President Joe Biden.
    • The interview came to light as the House committee that is investigating the riot, which disrupted a joint session of Congress, seeks testimony and evidence from former Trump officials.

384

Trump supporters near the U.S Capitol, on January 06, 2021 in Washington, DC.
Shay Horse | NurPhoto | Getty Images

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Masters Principal
4.2.1  Nerm_L  replied to  Krishna @4.2    3 weeks ago
Because there's a rather unusual law (still on the books) that the election results have to e officially certified on Jan 6th.-- that was the ritual led by the Vice President (in this case it was Mike Pence).  Trump and his ass-lickers were hoping that by storming the capitol they could forceably interrupt that.

So Congress really does have the ability to overturn an election?  Doesn't that mean a President-elect must receive the approval of Congress before being inaugurated?

It would seem that eliminating Congressional ability to interfere in elections should be a higher priority than eliminating the Electoral College.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.2  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @4.2.1    3 weeks ago

This is not interference, this is part of the constitutional process.   And if you think this is interference then you must think that Congress should not make laws either.   Congress was elected to do these kinds of things.  

Ultimately, when things go wrong, our system typically empowers the legislative branch (federal and state levels) to take corrective actions.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
4.2.3  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @4.2.1    3 weeks ago

You totally missed the point!

(Or was it intentional? I'd like to think not...)

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Masters Principal
4.2.4  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @4.2.2    3 weeks ago
This is not interference, this is part of the constitutional process.   And if you think this is interference then you must think that Congress should not make laws either.   Congress was elected to do these kinds of things.   Ultimately, when things go wrong, our system typically empowers the legislative branch (federal and state levels) to take corrective actions.

So, we're a Constitutional Republic and not a democracy?  Why doesn't the political party in power understand that?

We're being spoon fed a lot of predigested political pabulum about threats to our democracy.  And we're told that mere common people interfering with Congressional authority over elections is a threat to that democracy.  Whose democracy is it, anyway?  Is it a democracy of the people - or - is it a democracy of those in political power?

What is the place of common people in our democracy?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.5  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @4.2.4    3 weeks ago
So, we're a Constitutional Republic and not a democracy?  Why doesn't the political party in power understand that?

We are a federated constitutional Republic based on indirect democracy.    We are both a Republic AND a Democracy.   The very meaning of the word Republic designates indirect democracy:

Republic ≡ A state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives [ aka 'indirect democracy' ], and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.
Democracy A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives .

This truly pointless ' debate ' between the right and the left has gone on for as long as I have been on social media.   It is stupid.   We are both.  People need to move on.

What is the place of common people in our democracy?

Common people elect representatives.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
4.2.6  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  TᵢG @4.2.5    3 weeks ago

I pretty much agree with everything you said , except what to call it , federated constitutional republic?

 dont know bout dat...

 If i had to choose something that actually describes the form of government , i would say a constitutional representative  republic , but thats just being nit picky really . 

My reasoning is that the constitutional part not only sets up how the government is comprised , but it also limits ( prohibits? ) to a point what the federal entity can do , the representative part is self explanatory , and uses the democratic method of voting to choose those representatives by both population and state jurisdiction as set by the constitution .

 as for republic , i have nothing more than what you already posited , because the ultimate power does rest with the people , exersized by whom they elect to represent their specific jurisdictions . now whether or not they are paying attention , is another matter .

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Masters Principal
4.2.7  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @4.2.5    3 weeks ago
This truly pointless ' debate ' between the right and the left has gone on for as long as I have been on social media.   It is stupid.   We are both.  People need to move on.

We have a President telling us our democracy is under threat and who is promising to use Presidential authority to defend our democracy.  We have a Congress telling us legislation must be enacted to protect our democracy.  Political leaders are using the narrative of a 'threat to democracy' as justification for imposing laws and specific requirements onto the country as a whole. 

That's quite a bit more than a debate.  Whose democracy will be protected by that authoritarian approach?

Common people elect representatives.

If elected representatives have authority over the election process then why would that be considered democracy?  Whose democracy are we really talking about?  Is the political narrative about the democracy of voters or is the narrative about the democracy of elected representatives?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.8  TᵢG  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @4.2.6    3 weeks ago

Actually, I should have used the more common word of 'federal' rather than 'federated'.   But same concept.

The reason for the federal part is that our nation is a federation of states; not simply a single state.

We agree on the constitutional part.   The 'representative Republic' is redundant given the meaning of the word Republic.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.9  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @4.2.7    3 weeks ago
We have a President telling us our democracy is under threat and who is promising to use Presidential authority to defend our democracy.  We have a Congress telling us legislation must be enacted to protect our democracy.  Political leaders are using the narrative of a 'threat to democracy' as justification for imposing laws and specific requirements onto the country as a whole.  That's quite a bit more than a debate.  Whose democracy will be protected by that authoritarian approach?

Are you questioning if ours is a Democracy?   If so, see the comment you replied to.   If not, I do not know what you are asking.

If elected representatives have authority over the election process then why would that be considered democracy?  Whose democracy are we really talking about?  Is the political narrative about the democracy of voters or is the narrative about the democracy of elected representatives?

Depends on the specifics of the 'authority'.   If they can freely overrule the demos votes then that violates the concept of democracy.   If they have the constitutional authority to deal with specific electoral problems then that does not ipso facto mean a violation of democracy.

The details matter.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Masters Principal
4.2.10  Nerm_L  replied to  TᵢG @4.2.9    3 weeks ago
Depends on the specifics of the 'authority'.   If they can freely overrule the demos votes then that violates the concept of democracy.   If they have the constitutional authority to deal with specific electoral problems then that does not ipso facto mean a violation of democracy. The details matter.

Vladimir Putin is an elected official.  Xi Jinping is an elected official.  Kim Jong-un is an elected official.  Ayatollah Khamanei is an elected official.

The detail that is being overlooked are the restrictions, limits, and control over who is allowed on the ballot.  What we are seeing is emergence of a more authoritarian democracy in the United States.  Elected representatives are trying to exert greater control over who is allowed on the ballot.  Election results are being declared a mandate for those who were allowed on the ballot by an undemocratic process.

So, I ask again, whose democracy is being threatened?  Whose democracy has the President promised to defend?  Whose democracy is Congress trying to protect with new laws and requirements?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
4.2.11  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @4.2.1    3 weeks ago

Nope.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.12  TᵢG  replied to  Nerm_L @4.2.10    3 weeks ago
Vladimir Putin is an elected official.  Xi Jinping is an elected official.  Kim Jong-un is an elected official.  Ayatollah Khamanei is an elected official.

So?

Elected representatives are trying to exert greater control over who is allowed on the ballot. 

Nothing new there.   Been going on since before we were born.   Our system is imperfect.

So, I ask again, whose democracy is being threatened?

You are essentially trying to declare we do not have a democracy.   The fact that our system is imperfect, and has been, does not mean we do not have a democracy.

When we get to the point where demos votes do not matter then make the case that we do not have a democracy.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
4.3  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @4    3 weeks ago
How would storming the Capitol change the outcome of the election?  The only way storming the Capitol would succeed is

Nope.

See comment # 4. 2 for the actual facts! 

(The "true facts"-- not the "alternative facts"....

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
4.4  Krishna  replied to  Nerm_L @4    3 weeks ago
How would storming the Capitol change the outcome of the election?  The only way storming the Capitol would succeed is Congress already having the ability to overturn an election.  The whole narrative depends upon the idea that Joe Biden could not have been inaugurated without Congressional certification of the election. As far as a civil war goes, we're already in the midst of a civil war.  Cities refusing to enforce Federal laws and refusing to cooperate with the Federal government is tacit secession.  States and cities are already challenging the authority and legitimacy of the Federal government.  That started in Democratic controlled states and has begun to snowball out of control.

Reading your comments reminds me of the way Tucker Carlson and Ted Cruz interact,Veeery similar style of discussing things!

If that's nor to clear, here is a vivid example (Note to people here who don't watch posted videos-- this one is worth watching--trust me!)

Tucker presses Ted Cruz for using this term

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
5  Sean Treacy    3 weeks ago

Have the Democrats done anything, in your mind, to undermine Democracy in the last 30 years? Or is everything always the Republicans fault?

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
5.1  bbl-1  replied to  Sean Treacy @5    3 weeks ago

Yeah.  Keeping Social Security and Medicare solvent while trying to protect air, water, natural resources and protecting the right to vote.  

GOP does none of those except move the nations wealth into the control of an ever shrinking minority.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.1.1  Krishna  replied to  bbl-1 @5.1    3 weeks ago
GOP does none of those except move the nations wealth into the control of an ever shrinking minority.

Excellent summary of what the current GOP is doing!

(Well, there are a few exceptions, but they are a tiny minority in today's Republican Party :-(

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
5.1.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  bbl-1 @5.1    3 weeks ago
[deleted.
 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  bbl-1 @5.1    3 weeks ago
GOP does none of those except move the nations wealth into the control of an ever shrinking minority.

Would you forward the source for this invaluable information? 

I really am interested in how the GOP is doing all of that--even when they aren't in control--and how Democrats are letting them!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.1.4  Krishna  replied to  Sean Treacy @5.1.2    3 weeks ago
you forgot Putin and Helsinki.

Well, there are probably some here who aren't quite sure what a "derail by whaddaboudism" is yet..or aren't yet quite sure how to recognize one.

But the more people use that sleazy tactic...the more they will realize, over time, what 's attempting to be done.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Junior Quiet
5.1.5  Jack_TX  replied to  bbl-1 @5.1    3 weeks ago
GOP does none of those except move the nations wealth into the control of an ever shrinking minority.

They're very clever about it, too. 

Nobody would ever know they've put a gun to your head and forced you to buy shit from Amazon, post about it on Facebook, bitch about them on Twitter, and have Siri start a Google search on "how to be anti-racist" while driving your Tesla.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.6  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @5.1.5    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
5.1.7  bbl-1  replied to  Sean Treacy @5.1.2    3 weeks ago

[Deleted]

I'll wear the flag I'm about to receive with pride.  An American badge of honor against the corpulant right wing Putin boot shiners.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.8  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @5.1.5    3 weeks ago

Very well put, and hilarious to boot!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.1.9  Krishna  replied to  Jack_TX @5.1.5    3 weeks ago
They're very clever about it, too. 

True dat!

But they're very cle ver in how they do it.

A lack of any moral virtues-- but clever at conning people.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.10  Texan1211  replied to  Krishna @5.1.9    2 weeks ago
But they're very cle ver in how they do it.

Sure doesn't say much about the progressive liberals who keep falling for it!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.2  Krishna  replied to  Sean Treacy @5    3 weeks ago
Have the Democrats done anything, in your mind, to undermine Democracy in the last 30 years?

For those that may be wondering what a "derail by 'Whaddaboutism'" is-- that's a perfect example!

Please stick to the topic-- if you don't like the way the conversation is going, it would really be helpful to stick to the topic reather than try to derail...!

Such an obvious attempt really...and it doesn't add anything to the quality of NT,!

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
5.2.1  Sean Treacy  replied to  Krishna @5.2    3 weeks ago
[deleted.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.2.2  Krishna  replied to  Sean Treacy @5.2.1    3 weeks ago

Examples?

(Now I'm playing the "calling your bluff" card, LOL! jrSmiley_4_smiley_image.png )

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.3  Krishna  replied to  Sean Treacy @5    3 weeks ago
Have the Democrats done anything, in your mind, to undermine Democracy in the last 30 years? Or is everything always the Republicans fault?

What a bizarre question!

C'mon Sean-- get serious!

 
 
 
GregTx
Sophomore Participates
6  GregTx    3 weeks ago

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
6.1  Krishna  replied to  GregTx @6    3 weeks ago

President Biden speaks on the anniversary of January 6, 2021.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Sophomore Expert
6.1.1  al Jizzerror  replied to  Krishna @6.1    3 weeks ago

jrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_13_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_28_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_100_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.1.2  Sparty On  replied to  Krishna @6.1    3 weeks ago

And the Emmy goes to ......

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
6.1.3  Krishna  replied to  al Jizzerror @6.1.1    3 weeks ago

Excellent comment al Jizzerror!

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Sophomore Expert
8  al Jizzerror    3 weeks ago

The event that triggered the first Civil War was when the first shots were fired at Fort Sumter in Charleston Bay on April 12, 1861

The event that triggered the Second Civil War was when Trump sent his stooges to prevent Pence and Congress from ratifying the vote of the Electoral College on January 6th, 2021.  That was part of Trump's first coup attempt.  Trump is still firing up his stooges to attempt a second coup.  Anyone who participates in a Trump inspired coup is committing SEDITION.

512

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
9  Trout Giggles    3 weeks ago

Ever read The Handmaid's Tale? America fell when a group of so-called patriots stormed Congress in session and murdered everyone there. Doubt if that would happen today but...

Anyway, that was the beginning. Then Americans took to chucking nukes at each other. Eventually the USA was no longer

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
9.1  Sparty On  replied to  Trout Giggles @9    3 weeks ago

I have and I’ve also read novels like 1984, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451, etc, etc.

Take your pick which novel we are closer to as governments work to restrict individual freedoms almost daily in these times......

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
9.1.1  Krishna  replied to  Sparty On @9.1    3 weeks ago

Take your pick which novel we are closer to as governments work to restrict individual freedoms almost daily in these times......

Well, we still have some individual freedoms left...there are still some choices we can make to show our need for "freedom"

384 !

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
9.1.2  Sparty On  replied to  Krishna @9.1.1    3 weeks ago

Lol .... do you need a safe space to contemplate the ridiculousness of that sign .....

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
9.1.3  Krishna  replied to  Sparty On @9.1.2    3 weeks ago

Whoa...wait a minute. Please explain what you mean by implying that NT is not a "safe space"?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  Krishna @9.1.3    3 weeks ago
Please explain what you mean by implying that NT is not a "safe space"?

Sounds like he is implying that NT IS the safe space for your little cartoon pictures.

Do note your post stands as evidence.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
9.1.5  Sparty On  replied to  Krishna @9.1.3    3 weeks ago

Whoa nelly ..... I’m glad you feel safe here ...... super happy

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
9.1.6  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  Krishna @9.1.3    2 weeks ago

Maybe he should go back to his mom's basement with his Trumpy Bear and his my pillow to feel safe.

 
 
 
Paula Bartholomew
Professor Guide
10  Paula Bartholomew    3 weeks ago

If his followers want to bring a knife to a gun fight, then they will reap what they sow.  There are still thousands of body bags in storage left over from Desert Storm.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
10.1  Texan1211  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @10    2 weeks ago

Everybody's always tough on the internet.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
10.1.1  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @10.1    2 weeks ago

Badasses, absolute badasses .....

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
10.2  Sparty On  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @10    2 weeks ago

Interesting fantasy.    You might be surprised what most US military warriors think of that fantasy.    Unpleasantly surprised ...

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Principal
11  Kathleen    2 weeks ago

There are some that probably want a civil war and that is on both sides.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
11.1  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Kathleen @11    2 weeks ago

and i would say those on both sides are in the minority , no matter which side they are on .

As it pertains to this sites community , i would liken it to an old 1800s political cartoon of states or counties , represented by a bunch of old duffers playing dress up in their grand  military  dress uniforms to impress with rows of medals and egg salad on the brims of their helms , rattling their swords in the scabbards .

 ever notice the ones whom make the statements are actually too old to actually do any thing but talk ? and count on the gulibility of those younger to be the front lines ? * after thought , i include myself in that catagory , but only to the point im too old to go invade some other place if i were inclined to , which im not BTW. I am more of a you do you where you are and i will do me where i am .

i can just see some of the ones commenting now , the metamucile and walker brigade .....thinking they will direct actions from some "safe " place ......question is who is listening and will they actually do anything ...or are they viewd as blathering dementia riddled idiots ?

 
 
 
Kathleen
Professor Principal
11.1.1  Kathleen  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @11.1    2 weeks ago

Be that as it may, but I see a lot of division in the country. Not so much of a war, but the fighting between the two parties and even using a virus for their agenda that has killed so many. It seems like they are making everything political. . 

 
 

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