Stop Erasing Transgender Stories From History - SAPIENS

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  jbb  •  2 months ago  •  106 comments

By:   SAPIENS

Stop Erasing Transgender Stories From History - SAPIENS
To curb violence today, it is vitally important to remember that human sex and gender lie across a spectrum.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Remembering that human sex and gender lie across a spectrum in the past is vital to curbing violence toward gender-nonconforming people today. ByGabby Omoni Hartemann 31 Mar 2021 01_2D28HMX_compressed-1024x724.jpg

In 2019, the death of a 78-year-old man, Lourival Bezerra de Sa, made the news in Brazil. Despite the fact that the death occurred by natural causes, his body stayed over three months in police custody. The reason given by the authorities for the delay in allowing Lourival to be buried was that his documents, which identified him as a man, did not match the forensic report, which identified him as a woman because of his genitalia.

The media, appallingly, portrayed Lourival as a liar: as a woman who had masqueraded as a man. The pervasive use of Western binary notions of sex and gender by his society, forensic scientists, and the police effectively erased his identity as a transgender man.

Lourival's postmortem story sadly constitutes yet another example of the erasure of gender diversity in the narratives about past and present times. The ongoing, pervasive belief that humankind is only made up of "men" and "women" contributes to the violence directed at transgender, intersex, and gender-nonconforming people. We urgently need to put an end to this erasure.

In regions of the world influenced by Western worldviews, masculinity and femininity have been directly associated with people's genitalia and reproductive capacities. This notion purports a strictly binary division of human beings according to physical traits (sex), which in turn results in the attribution of social and cultural roles (gender).

While this division of the world's inhabitants might seem natural to many, given the dominance of modern Western worldviews, anthropological and biological research shows that neither "gender" nor "sex" can be taken for granted. The idea of apportioning two options of social roles based on the format of people's bodies cannot be projected onto all other times and cultures. In human bodies and human societies, multiple possibilities coexist in the spectrum of life experiences.

In contemporary societies where these possibilities have been forgotten or forbidden, individuals whose existences transcend sex and gender binaries have become the target of violence. Transgender and gender-nonconforming people count among the most assassinated people worldwide. In Brazil, the country where I live and work as a transgender, nonbinary archaeologist, 124 transgender people were murdered during the year 2019, and 175 in 2020.

The common perception is that something is wrong with us. There seems to be a general understanding that transgender people are a phenomenon of the 21st century, yet another awkward "rebel teenager" fashion trend. The erroneous idea that we, transgender people, "have no past," feeds the notion held by many cisgender people that we don't belong in the present.

While it is obviously important to expose and condemn transphobic violence, stories of violence, death, and pain cannot and should not be the only stories told about trans people.

As a transgender archaeologist, I often find myself overwhelmed with deep feelings of nostalgia when I learn about ancient times. Human beings have lived with fluid notions of masculinity and femininity in various cultures throughout most of human history without their existences being demonized and violated. Hijras in India, muxes in Mexico, mh in Polynesia, and winkte in Lakota territory are but a few examples of people who are traditionally recognized and respected as belonging both to the masculine and feminine dimensions of humankind.

However, most of the stories about the human past that are produced within academic fields of study, including archaeology, are heavily influenced by the Eurocentric binary. By relying on this division of society, archaeologists and other heritage professionals have silenced many people's existences in their work. They have also encountered many problems in their interpretations.


The erroneous idea that we, transgender people, "have no past," feeds the notion held by many cisgender people that we don't belong in the present.

A significant number of archaeologists have pointed to the fact that the division of humanity is rarely binary in ancient depictions of human bodies. In his study of late Bronze Age figurative art in Greece, archaeologist Benjamin Alberti demonstrated that not only was genitalia completely absent from the imagery, it was also impossible to rely on a clear and systematic association of color coding, physical attributes, or clothing conventions to attribute gender.

Archaeologist Maria Fernanda Ugalde has raised a similar issue in her analysis of over 3,000 clay figures from Ecuador, dating from as early as 3500 B.C. Other combinations of physical and clothing features than the ones fitting Western notions of sex and gender were present in those figurines: For example, breasts were depicted with male dress and a lack of breasts with female dress.

Some individuals buried with objects typically attributed to "men" or "women" have also been identified with a different biological sex. In Peru, the burial of a mummified Moche person from the first millennium was found alongside signs of royal power, such as nose ornaments and gold war clubs, that have typically been interpreted as belonging to elite male warriors. The analysis of the remains, however, surprised archaeologists, who determined that they belonged to a biologically female individual. The story of the Lady of Cao is currently told as one of a powerful woman, possibly a high priestess or even a rare female ruler. That story still fails to acknowledge the possibility that the Lady of Cao may have identified as something other than a man or a woman.

Pamela Geller, a bioarchaeologist who specializes in the analysis of ancient human remains, has pointed out that researchers' estimates of biological sex are typically tied to five categories: ambiguous, female, probable female, male, and probable male. But that ambiguity, she notes, is perceived as belonging to the researchers' certainty, and not to the individual's sex. That, she says, needs to change.

Despite the fact that archaeologists regularly come upon evidence that some people did not fit sex and gender binaries, those researchers still have a tendency to diminish their relevance, relegating them to "anomalies" or "ambiguous cases." That impression is then reproduced by the media and contributes to erasing the stories of people who embodied fluidity in their masculinity and femininity.

It is time to stop silencing these past and present existences.

Education is key to stopping the violence toward present-day transgender, intersex, and gender-nonconforming people. There needs to be a certainty for everyone—including archaeologists and the general public—that we, transgender people, are and have been part of humanity since its beginning. People need to learn from our knowledge and life experiences, and fight alongside us for our rights. Making sure we stay alive and visible will help show those who are not used to our presence that we do belong.

It is also crucial that the people telling stories about the past understand that they have a responsibility toward transgender people. These stories, whether they are told to the public in a school setting, in museums, in newspapers, or through movies, should include and highlight the existences of people who do not identify with binary genders.

Specifically, we need cisgender archaeologists to transform the way they look at the archaeological record. Before creating interpretations, they should be ready for possibilities of existences that do not fit a strict division between men and women, or between males and females. Some great work is already underway, including archaeologist Mary Weismantel's "Towards a Transgender Archaeology: A Queer Rampage Through Prehistory."

It might seem scary for cisgender archaeologists and other heritage professionals to abandon binary notions of gender and sex as categories of analysis, given the central place they have occupied in the history of anthropological science and how natural they feel in modern Western societies. But such a transformation represents one possible pathway to preserving transgender lives. Holding on to the Western gender binary causes harm, even death, both in the past and present.

Gabby Omoni Hartemann


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JBB
Professor Principal
1  seeder  JBB    2 months ago

For those who falsely claim that transexualism is a modern phenomenon.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
1.1  Greg Jones  replied to  JBB @1    2 months ago

Why has transgenderism become such a topic of interest to the left in the last few years. Why all the uproar and interest in such a small segment of society?

Why is the left actively encouraging puberty blockers and surgery on children and keep that information from their parents.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
1.1.1  seeder  JBB  replied to  Greg Jones @1.1    2 months ago

Where do you get that nonsense. There have always been transgender persons. It is not a modern phenomenon. What is fairly modern (since the 1950s) are the therapies and treatments which make it possible for transgender individuals to live longer happier and more fullfilling lives thanks to modern medicine.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
1.1.2  Split Personality  replied to  Greg Jones @1.1    2 months ago
Why has transgenderism become such a topic of interest to the left in the last few years. Why all the uproar and interest in such a small segment of society?

It doesn't seem like the left is the ideology passing laws against LGBTQ people.

Why is the left actively encouraging puberty blockers and surgery on children and keep that information from their parents.

You must be reading the wrong websites or listening to Tucker or Jones or Bannon.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
1.1.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  Split Personality @1.1.2    2 months ago

I didn't think minor children could seek medical treatment without the consent of a parent/guardian

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
1.1.4  Drakkonis  replied to  Greg Jones @1.1    2 months ago
Why has transgenderism become such a topic of interest to the left in the last few years. Why all the uproar and interest in such a small segment of society?

it is because the Left is trying to destroy concepts such as truth and fact. If you can untether people from things like that you can get them to do whatever you want. Basically, we're talking George Orwell's 1984. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.5  Tessylo  replied to  Trout Giggles @1.1.3    2 months ago

They cannot and we do not do the bullshit that Greg is always spewing

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.6  Tessylo  replied to  Drakkonis @1.1.4    2 months ago

Because folks like you and Greg make up bullshit they've pulled from their nether regions

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.2  devangelical  replied to  JBB @1    2 months ago

deleted

“A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.” - Frank Zappa

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2  Vic Eldred    2 months ago

I thought the claim was that it was now being normalized.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1  seeder  JBB  replied to  Vic Eldred @2    2 months ago

That is not true as transexualism was normalized 3,000 years ago...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  JBB @2.1    2 months ago

Not for us.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
2.1.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.1    2 months ago

So perhaps it's time to catch up.

It seems odd to me that it bothers anybody not directly affected, anyway.  It doesn't affect you in any way if somebody else is transgendered.  Nobody is doing involuntary surgery on you, nor injecting you with unwanted hormones.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.3  Vic Eldred  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.2    2 months ago

I don't worry about adults making such decisions, but I do think young children should have parental consent.

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
2.1.4  bbl-1  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.3    2 months ago

Being melodramatic I see.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
2.1.5  sandy-2021492  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.3    2 months ago

So why all the hysteria and refusal to read or acknowledge science in your article, Vic?

The insistence on the existence of only two "genders" (when you really mean "sex"), determined solely by X and Y chromosomes?  Multiple people were linking to articles about genetic reasons for intersex and ambiguous sex, and you chose to dogmatically ignore them. 

You DO realize that chromosomes are the carriers of genetic information, yes?  That merely the shape of the chromosome is less important than the genetic information contained within it (and within the other 22 chromosome pairs)?  That what's on our chromosomes can affect hair color and texture, eye color, height, weight, athletic ability, cancer risk, risk of addiction, susceptibility to mental illness, IQ, food likes and dislikes, and on and on...  But you seem to think that what's on those chromosomes can't affect sexual identity, other than via the shape of the sex chromosomes (vs the genetic information contained therein).  That's an extremely arbitrary line, with no basis in logic or science.

Frankly, the attitude of many in that article seemed to be "This is what I learned in high school, and it's enough and I don't want to hear any more."  We've learned a lot about genetics since then, Vic.  Hell, we've learned a lot about genetics since I was in high school, and even since I was in college.  We've mapped the genome since then.  We've found not just chromosomes, but what's ON those chromosomes, and how that information affects us, and in some cases, how that information interacts with our environments, and how those interactions affect us.

Maybe it's time to catch up.

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
2.1.6  pat wilson  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.3    2 months ago
I do think young children should have parental consent.

I agree with that. I have no problems with transgender people at all and no problems with children identifying with a gender they weren't born with. But no permanent physical changes should be done to anyone under the age of 18, hormonal or surgical. They are just not prepared to make life changing decisions like this.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.7  seeder  JBB  replied to  pat wilson @2.1.6    2 months ago

Without hormonal treatments, which are reversible, at puberty young adults develop very difficult and often irreversible secondary sexual characteristics. It requires years of therapy to reach the point that it is allowed and again, these hormonal treatments only delay puberty and naturally reverse if they are ceases before the final surgery. After which some hormonal treatments will be ongoing...

Without hormonal treatment at puberty trans boys develop breasts and trans girls get hair on their chests and faces. 

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
2.1.8  pat wilson  replied to  JBB @2.1.7    2 months ago

Hormonal treatments might be reversible but I don't think we know at this time what the long term effects may be.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
2.1.9  Sean Treacy  replied to  JBB @2.1.7    2 months ago
tments, which are reversible,

No they aren't. 

 h ormonal treatments only delay puberty and naturally reverse if they are ceases before the final surgery.

They can leave kids sterile over a whim they had has teenagers. It's insanity. 

Most children who believe that they are transgender are just going through a “phase”, the NHS has said, as it warns that doctors should not encourage them to change their names and pronouns.....NHS England has announced plans for tightening controls on the treatment of under 18s questioning their gender, including a ban on prescribing puberty blockers outside of strict clinical trials.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.10  seeder  JBB  replied to  pat wilson @2.1.8    2 months ago

It is a decision that should be made by the patient, their parents and their doctor. Trans boys and girls are at their highest risk of suicide at puberty when boys get breasts and girls develop facial and body hair. The hormonal treatments you worry about reverse automatically without continued use. The medical community has decades of experience with using these types of puberty blockers. So, yes we really do know...

Doctors do know delaying puberty a few years is not harmful.

On the other hand, a trans boy developing breasts is highest risk of killing himself. The long term effects of that are well known!

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.11  seeder  JBB  replied to  Sean Treacy @2.1.9    2 months ago

So what? Some English guy wants to tighten their controls?

Many rightwingers want to interfere with people's personal decisions that should only be between patients and doctors! 

Puberty blockers are only prescribed by doctors when the risk of not prescribing them is deemed more dangerous...

By the patient, their parents and their doctors. Not By You!

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.12  seeder  JBB  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.3    2 months ago

The only way that anyone can get puberty blockers without parental consent in the United States is with a court order...

 
 
 
GregTx
Senior Participates
2.1.13  GregTx  replied to  JBB @2.1.12    2 months ago

And why would a court order that over parental consent?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.14  Vic Eldred  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.5    2 months ago
So why all the hysteria and refusal to read or acknowledge science in your article, Vic?

I stand by the science. Your side lies about it.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.15  Vic Eldred  replied to  pat wilson @2.1.6    2 months ago

Glad to hear that.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
2.1.16  sandy-2021492  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.14    2 months ago

We've all posted sources, Vic.  Nonpolitical ones.  You post only dogma, and ignore science.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.17  seeder  JBB  replied to  GregTx @2.1.13    2 months ago

Because the judge decides it is in the minors best interest.

This is only done when someone sues on the child's behalf...

Remember we're talking about at puberty and not younger...

That usually would be a patient's doctors and psychologists.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
2.1.18  Split Personality  replied to  Sean Treacy @2.1.9    2 months ago
No they aren't. 
Well there's a remarkably incomplete declaration.
Are the effects of hormone therapy reversible?
Some of the effects of hormone therapy are reversible, if you stop taking them. The degree to which they can be reversed depends on how long you have been taking testosterone. Clitoral growth, facial hair growth, voice changes and male-pattern baldness are not reversible.
transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-testosterone-hor
Of course discontinued estrogen therapy for a male doesn't make him any more sterile than the surgery itself...
They can leave kids sterile over a whim they had has teenagers.
Can you provide a link that isn't behind a paywall to support this assertion?
Only long term use can result in unwanted outcomes.
The same can be said for most drugs, alcohol use and smoking.
It's insanity.
That's just your opinion.
 
 
 
GregTx
Senior Participates
2.1.19  GregTx  replied to  JBB @2.1.17    2 months ago

Exactly, because those doctors and psychologist are in a much better position to petition for those pubescent children than their parents....

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.20  seeder  JBB  replied to  GregTx @2.1.19    2 months ago

In some cases, yes...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.21  Vic Eldred  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.16    2 months ago
You post only dogma, and ignore science.

Let us clearly differentiate between the two:

Science is when you point out that there are only 2 genders: male and female.

Dogma is when someone disingenuously conflates hormal treatments for sex altering operations, which are not reversable. 

Science is when you affirm that a man can never have a baby.

Dogma is when one graduates from Harvard Law School, yet cannot define what a woman is.


 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.22  devangelical  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.21    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.23  devangelical  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.2    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1.24  Kavika   replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.21    2 months ago
Science is when you point out that there are only 2 genders: male and female.

False.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
2.1.25  sandy-2021492  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.21    2 months ago

What you just posted is dogma ignoring science that has been posted, with links to evidence.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
2.1.26  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.2    2 months ago
So perhaps it's time to catch up.

With What ...... That  that there is NOT actually a Male and Female in all walks of life ?

It seems odd to me that it bothers anybody not directly affected, anyway.

Have you NOT "Seen" or "Listened" to the "Reports" of what one has "no choice" to comment on when it comes to weird ABBY-NORMAL norms these days ?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
2.1.27  sandy-2021492  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @2.1.26    2 months ago

Intersex is a thing, according to science.  Denying that doesn't make it disappear.

You have "no choice" to comment?  Aren't you commenting?

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
2.1.28  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.27    2 months ago
Denying that doesn't make it disappear.

I Denied it ..... Where ?

Do you deny that Male and Female has ALWAYS been how the population expanded ?

By the Way ..... according to science, that's a fact, unlike like those that just want to "Change" in front of women for kicks, and then claim it's all about the guys for them !

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
2.1.29  sandy-2021492  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @2.1.28    2 months ago

There's the shuffle we've come to expect.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
2.1.30  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.29    2 months ago
There's the shuffle we've come to expect.

That's your "Best" response ?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
2.1.31  sandy-2021492  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @2.1.30    2 months ago

Who said male and female don't exist?  Or that we don't reproduce sexually?

Nobody.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
2.1.32  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.31    2 months ago

I didn't "say" anything about who "said what".

I asked a simple question, that you seem to be "Shuffling" around to answer.

Shuffling.... like I already expected from you anyway ?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
2.1.33  sandy-2021492  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @2.1.32    2 months ago

Shuffle, shuffle.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
2.1.34  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.33    2 months ago
Shuffle, shuffle.

No surprising response from you there. 

Deflect, Deflect.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
2.1.35  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.33    2 months ago
Shuffle, shuffle.

This "Taunt" .... STANDS !

Got it ! jrSmiley_13_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
2.1.36  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @2.1.35    2 months ago

Ticket was removed and comment was restored.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
2.1.37  Jack_TX  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.2    2 months ago
Nobody is doing involuntary surgery on you, nor injecting you with unwanted hormones.

They're not luring me into a van with candy and then trafficking me, either,  That doesn't mean we should let people do that to children.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
2.1.38  Jack_TX  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.3    2 months ago
 but I do think young children should have parental consent

No.  Absolutely not. 

Try taking your 8 year old into a bar and ordering her a whisky.  Nobody is going to acknowledge your "consent".   Everybody realized that anybody who would make such a decision on behalf of a child should be utterly disregarded.

Society has enacted rules to protect the child not only from themselves but from the stupidity/ineptitude or mental illness of those who supervise them. 

And that's just over a drink.

So how much more thoroughly should we disregard "consent" for medical treatments with permanent consequences?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
2.1.39  sandy-2021492  replied to  Jack_TX @2.1.37    2 months ago
That doesn't mean we should let people do that to children.

Do what?  What have you seen me advocating for anybody to do to children?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.40  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jack_TX @2.1.38    2 months ago
Society has enacted rules to protect the child not only from themselves but from the stupidity/ineptitude or mental illness of those who supervise them.

Clearly not when it comes to this.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.41  Tessylo  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.2    2 months ago

Some folks just refuse to evolve and accept that life is not black and white

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.42  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.14    2 months ago

You do the exact OPPOSITE of what you claim

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.43  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @2.1.42    2 months ago

For example?

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
2.1.44  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @2.1.36    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
2.1.45  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @2.1.44    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
2.1.46  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @2.1.45    2 months ago

Meta !

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
2.2  bbl-1  replied to  Vic Eldred @2    2 months ago

No.  The only thing being 'normalized' is hate for the other.  

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.1  seeder  JBB  replied to  bbl-1 @2.2    2 months ago

Yes, and if some of out normally empty public libraries are now full up with kids on Saturday mornings because this guy is reading fully appropriate kids books to children, then explain why that such a bad thing?

original

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.2  Vic Eldred  replied to  bbl-1 @2.2    2 months ago

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
2.2.3  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  bbl-1 @2.2    2 months ago
The only thing being 'normalized' is hate for the other.  

They have made "Movies" about "The Others" !

Weirdly Scary Shit ... "Why do you (others) remain in this "Place of Horrors" (As YOU claim) !

Masochism ?

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.2.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  JBB @2.2.1    2 months ago

She looks like what I imagine the Tooth Fairy looks like

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.2.5  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.2.4    2 months ago

she looks pretty good in a skirt and heels...

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.6  seeder  JBB  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.2.4    2 months ago

Do you think she will sexualizing anyone?

Laugh? Yes! Boys sporting wood? Nope...

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.2.7  Trout Giggles  replied to  JBB @2.2.6    2 months ago

She might be aiming for sexualizing the Tooth Fairy but she's missing the mark...by a long shot

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.8  seeder  JBB  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.2.7    2 months ago

No, but Dame Edna has a sparkling smile!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.2.9  Trout Giggles  replied to  JBB @2.2.8    2 months ago

Is that who that is? I've heard of her.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
3  Split Personality    2 months ago

My USN Doc was a friend, confidant and personal doctor.

He was a Naval flight officer and a Flight Surgeon on 2 Space Shuttle missions.

Despite his many successes and beautiful wives and ex-wives he was secretly very unhappy.

After 19 years active duty and despite an upcoming space mission he filed the paperwork to change his official records and banking info from Chris to Christine.

He never flew that next space mission, in fact, just about the only place you can find pictures of him in his Naval Dress Whites or Orange NASA flight suits are now in her very successful medical practices.

While it's not impossible to find some Naval Records about him, NASA literally scrubbed him from the internet and their history.

Now she does manage patients who wish to transition but you are much more likely to find her doing face lifts for the rich and famous or doing pro bono cleft palate repairs at the very hospitals that 20 years ago refused her hospital privileges based on rumor, inuendo, prejudice and fear. She is now very respected and much sought after for her surgical skills and public speaking abilities, not what was on her birth certificate.

She assists local universities in training and educating medical students and faculty about transgender medicine, while serving on an advisory board to the Surgeon General.

It's not what's between your legs that makes you, you, it what's between your ears.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1  Tessylo  replied to  Split Personality @3    2 months ago

Thank you SP.  It's all about sex to some folks and this really has nothing to do with it at all.

Some folks would rather regress than evolve or live in a past that never was.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.2  Tessylo  replied to  Split Personality @3    2 months ago

Also SP

jrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gif

and

jrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpgjrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpgjrSmiley_93_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
4  Drinker of the Wry    2 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
MonsterMash
Sophomore Participates
5  MonsterMash    2 months ago

One has to be 21 to buy tobacco products, 21 to buy alcohol,16 to drive, but the majority of liberals and progressives think a pre-adolescent teen is mature enough to choose which gender they want to be. That's fucked up thinking.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
5.1  seeder  JBB  replied to  MonsterMash @5    2 months ago

Children cannot get sex changes and must have their parent's and their doctor's approval to get puberty blockers as teenagers. Little kids believe in the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. What skin off your nose is it if a girl child believes she is a boy on her inside?

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
5.2  Split Personality  replied to  MonsterMash @5    2 months ago
but the majority of liberals and progressives think a pre-adolescent teen is mature enough to choose which gender they want to be. That's fucked up thinking.

Prove it or it's not the majority of liberals who have fucked up thinking.

I know that 18 t0 26 year-olds in the service probably aren't mature enough either but that's none of my business either.

 
 
 
MonsterMash
Sophomore Participates
5.2.1  MonsterMash  replied to  Split Personality @5.2    2 months ago
Prove it or it's not the majority of liberals who have fucked up thinking.

OK, I should have said the vast majority of liberals and progressives on NT think a pre-adolescent is mature enough to choose their gender. Just reading the comments proves that. I've never seen a progressive/Liberal on NT say they weren't. 

JBB: Children cannot get sex changes and must have their parent's and their doctor's approval to get puberty blockers as teenagers.

Not true.

Landmark judgment means children can get puberty blockers - without parental consent | UK | News | Express.co.uk

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.2.2  devangelical  replied to  MonsterMash @5.2.1    2 months ago

america isn't the UK.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
5.2.3  seeder  JBB  replied to  MonsterMash @5.2.1    2 months ago

I was talking about in the United States but you are not...

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.2.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  MonsterMash @5.2.1    2 months ago
OK, I should have said the vast majority of liberals and progressives on NT think a pre-adolescent is mature enough to choose their gender.

That's a sweeping generalization. I don't care if a child thinks she's a boy but I do object to giving children under 10 puberty blockers

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.2.5  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.2.4    2 months ago

my sister didn't stop kicking boy's asses until she was in high school...

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.2.6  Trout Giggles  replied to  devangelical @5.2.5    2 months ago

I bet she got her experience kicking yours, didn't she?

 
 
 
MonsterMash
Sophomore Participates
5.2.7  MonsterMash  replied to  JBB @5.2.3    2 months ago
I was talking about in the United States but you are not.
Not just the U.K. California passed this law.

Puberty Blockers, Hormones and Surgery Without Parental Consent? State Debates Trans Sanctuary Bill | CBN News

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
5.2.8  Jack_TX  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.2.4    2 months ago
I don't care if a child thinks she's a boy but I do object to giving children under 10 puberty blockers

I really think this is how the overwhelming majority of people feel about it.

Personally, I think people should have to be at least 18 before gender realignment treatments are legal.  There is too great a risk of a 14 year old who is "going through a phase" getting caught up in the attention and making permanent changes they will regret very bitterly later.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.2.9  devangelical  replied to  MonsterMash @5.2.7    2 months ago

so, no legitimate news outlets to back your claims?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.2.10  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @5.2.9    2 months ago

jrSmiley_82_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.2.11  Tessylo  replied to  Jack_TX @5.2.8    2 months ago

Just making up ignorance like certain others regarding 'going through a phase'

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.2.12  Trout Giggles  replied to  Jack_TX @5.2.8    2 months ago

I agree but up thread there's some pretty strong arguments on allowing hormone therapy in the teenage years. I'm on the fence on this. I concern myself with their physical and mental health and I don't know what the hell I'm talking about most days

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.2.13  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.2.12    2 months ago

medical decisions belong to medical professionals and their patients, not to politicians.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.2.14  Trout Giggles  replied to  devangelical @5.2.13    2 months ago

I do agree with that

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.2.15  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.2.6    2 months ago
I bet she got her experience kicking yours, didn't she?

negative, a good champ knows when to retire before being humiliated.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Sophomore Quiet
5.2.16  afrayedknot  replied to  devangelical @5.2.13    2 months ago

“…medical decisions belong to medical professionals and their patients, not to politicians.”

…and certainly not to ordinary citizens with the self-righteous desire to impose their will on others. Opinions are one thing and good for the dialogue…legislating morality, on the other hand, is obscene. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
5.2.17  Split Personality  replied to  MonsterMash @5.2.1    2 months ago
OK, I should have said the vast majority of liberals and progressives on NT think a pre-adolescent is mature enough to choose their gender. Just reading the comments proves that. I've never seen a progressive/Liberal on NT say they weren't. 

I'm sure you haven't read every remark on NT or NV to make that comment or come to that conclusion.

It simply isn't true.  Like I said elsewhere, people in general aren't fully developed brain wise till somewhere around 26 years.

The few people I know who went through with reassignment were in their 40's.

18 year olds in general are usually too incomplete and full of hormones to make some decisions.

On the other hand we have no problem with a cousin who voluntarily has a double mastectomy because the odds are so great that she would die of the family curse of breast cancer.

Or a distant cousin's child who decided to amputate a deformed leg in order to get a prosthetic that would allow him to walk normally for the first time ever.

They both achieved peace through surgery while improving their lives mentally and physically.

Gender reassignment is no different.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
5.2.18  Split Personality  replied to  Jack_TX @5.2.8    2 months ago
I really think this is how the overwhelming majority of people feel about it.

the majority? Absolutely.

the actual people and family members involved, different story.

Personally, I think people should have to be at least 18 before gender realignment treatments are legal. 

It's a nice thought but really?

There is too great a risk of a 14 year old who is "going through a phase" getting caught up in the attention and making permanent changes they will regret very bitterly later.

One of the people I knew was born male and acted female every single day of his life.

No one could help him in the 60's or 70's.  He just became a very fucked up individual who died of AIDS.  Gender reassignment, had it been available and affordable would have saved his/her life, IMHO. 

People make permanent changes they regret every day without the level of public indignation that this particular "change" elicits.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
5.2.19  sandy-2021492  replied to  Split Personality @5.2.18    2 months ago

A woman I know was born with ambiguous genitalia and was assigned male at birth.  Grew up male, became an engineer (typically a career favored by men), was always building things as a child.  Not much into sports, but very into science.  Married a woman, adopted kids.

And then the health problems started.  The amount of testosterone required to support secondary sex characteristics was causing heart problems.  He (at the time) had a heart attack.  His cardiologist told him he could either stop taking the testosterone supplements (knowing that his appearance would become more feminine), or risk an early death, in his 40s.

So he transitioned to female.  She is still an engineer, and has interesting things to say about how she never had to prove she was competent before transitioning - competency was assumed.  Now, she has to prove herself all the time, even though she has literally all the knowledge and experience (actually, now has MORE experience, just due to the passing of time) that she had as a male engineer.  Her wife stayed with her, and they are now raising their family as a same-sex couple.  And she's back to biking, without worrying that she'll keel over of a heart attack.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
5.2.20  Jack_TX  replied to  Split Personality @5.2.18    2 months ago
It's a nice thought but really?

Yeah. Really.  

I worked with kids for 30 years.  They spend most of their childhoods confused about one thing or another.  It's part of growing up.  That's why we don't let them sign contracts, buy whisky, or do any other number of things we let adults do. 

We also acknowledge that very, very often the people who have and raise children are the least qualified to do so.  That's why we have thousands of pages of laws attempting to protect children from their own parents' ineptitude.

One of the people I knew was born male and acted female every single day of his life.

I'm sure you understand the problems with a sample size of one.  I'm also sure you understand the problems with the assertion that gender reassignment might have saved this person's life.  

People make permanent changes they regret every day without the level of public indignation that this particular "change" elicits.

But we specifically stop kids from doing shit like that, and we specifically stop their parents from doing it to them.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
5.2.21  Split Personality  replied to  Jack_TX @5.2.20    2 months ago

I guess you didn't read my response to Monstermash.

It's a nice thought but really?

Really, 18 years is an arbitrary number that misses the mark by maybe 6 to 8 years

before a brain is mature enough. IMHO 

By then the parents should be over themselves, one way or the other.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
5.2.22  Jack_TX  replied to  Split Personality @5.2.21    one month ago
I guess you didn't read my response to Monstermash.

Missed that.  Sorry.

Really, 18 years is an arbitrary number that misses the mark by maybe 6 to 8 years before a brain is mature enough. IMHO 

I would certainly not argue that.  I just use 18 because it's the legal age for almost everything else.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.2.23  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.2.19    one month ago

I work in a field dominated by engineers and scientists. When I started working here 25 years ago, we had no female engineers. We now have 3 and one is the Chief Technical Engineer. We've had more at other points of time, but the reality is that down here in the South, women of a certain age were not encouraged to pursue STEM careers. And now that I think about it, we still don't have that many female scientists. We're still outnumbered.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.2.24  Tessylo  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.2.12    one month ago

I don't know all the ins and outs of hormone blockers, testosterone, etc., so I will not comment.  I do agree with others on the statements that it should be left up to the individual in question and their legal guardians and doctors.  If their legal guardians don't agree with the individual in question, they should have some support in their defense/decision making.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.2.25  Tessylo  replied to  Split Personality @5.2.18    one month ago

That's truly fucked up SP and some peoples' attitudes towards something that doesn't effect or affect them in any way, shape or form and they're the ones considered perverted and fucked up.  Those transgender and LGBTQ folks that is

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
5.2.26  Split Personality  replied to  Split Personality @5.2.18    one month ago

The more I read these comments, the more I see the association with abortion.

Both choices are permanent and none of the public's business.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
6  Jeremy Retired in NC    2 months ago
The reason given by the authorities for the delay in allowing Lourival to be buried was that his documents, which identified him as a man, did not match the forensic report, which identified him as a woman because of his genitalia.

It was only a matter of time before this become an issue.  Regardless of what a person identifies as, the accepted science, in this instance, contradicts all claims this was a man. 

Archaeologist Maria Fernanda Ugalde has raised a similar issue in her analysis of over 3,000 clay figures from Ecuador, dating from as early as 3500 B.C. Other combinations of physical and clothing features than the ones fitting Western notions of sex and gender were present in those figurines: For example, breasts were depicted with male dress and a lack of breasts with female dress.

That's all good looking at clay figures.  Now lets examine human skeletal remains.  If we fast forward 2000 years and Lourival is exhumed (for what ever reason) archeologists are going to examine the skeletal remains and determine Lourival is a woman.  Not because some clay figures / dolls / what ever.  But based the physical evidence and accepted science.  

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
7  Jack_TX    2 months ago
The media, appallingly, portrayed Lourival as a liar: as a woman who had masqueraded as a man

Because she was.

 
 
 
independent Liberal
Freshman Quiet
8  independent Liberal    2 months ago

The article is correct, there have always been cases of men and women with a sexual fetish that drives them to cross dress. Body dysmorphia has always been a real condition afflicting younger people and sometimes older. It was just recently our mental health community and or medical community decided to abandon actual science and shoe horn the wishes of delusional activists because they fear repercussions. The science is just not there on this issue.

That being said, I could care less if you want to wear women's panties or a dress. Whatever, you still look like the sex you were born with.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.1  Tessylo  replied to  independent Liberal @8    2 months ago

You are another denying science and decency and reality

 
 
 
independent Liberal
Freshman Quiet
8.1.1  independent Liberal  replied to  Tessylo @8.1    2 months ago

There is no science behind it, the advocates just need us to ignore science and pretend a cow is a bird and unicorns exist. Once again, have at your fetishes people, you don't need me or anyone else to share in your passion for it.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
8.1.2  Tessylo  replied to  independent Liberal @8.1.1    one month ago

[deleted] Has nothing to do with fetishes

 
 

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