Biden admin moves to ban gas stoves, citing clean energy policy, switch will cost U.S. households

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  vic-eldred  •  3 weeks ago  •  205 comments

By:   Joseph Weber (Just The News)

Biden admin moves to ban gas stoves, citing clean energy policy, switch will cost U.S. households
Natural gas stoves are used in about 40% of U.S. homes.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



The Biden administration is considering a ban on gas stoves, citing concerns about the kitchen appliances emitting harmful indoor air pollutants.

The change is being proposed through the administration's Consumer Product Safety Commission, according to Bloomberg News.

"This is a hidden hazard," says agency Commissioner Richard Trumka Jr. "Any option is on the table. Products that can't be made safe can be banned."

Natural gas stoves are used in about 40% of U.S. homes.

Reports from such groups as the Institute for Policy Integrity and the American Chemical Society say the stoves emit air pollutants such as nitrogen dioxide, carbon monoxide and fine particulate matter at levels the EPA and World Health Organization have found unsafe.

The emissions have also been linked to childhood asthma and other respiratory problems.

The federal agency plans to open public comment on the issue later this winter. Meanwhile, there is a bipartisan call in Congress for an alternative to having Americans buy an electric stove, which costs about $400.

Lawmakers have asked the commission to consider requiring warning labels, range hoods and performance standards and say gas-stove emissions a "cumulative burden" on black, Latino and low-income households that disproportionately experience air pollution, Bloomberg also reports.


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Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Vic Eldred    3 weeks ago


That ought to drive up prices even further!


All for this very radical pursuit of green energy!

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
1.1  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    3 weeks ago

Color me shocked, another misleading headline from a Questionable source again.

The very first sentence of the article contradicts the headline.

Considering is hardly the same as "move to ban"

Gas is dangerous.

That is why gas heaters and gas water heaters have to be vented to the outside.

There is a near zero chance of dying from carbon monoxide in an all electric house...

During the power outages from Hurricane Sandy I loved my gas appliances, especially

my two thermostat operated fireplaces which kept the house warm and allowed me to stay at

home instead of retreating to a hotel or relatives.

Two weeks later we were cleaning windows of all the soot that had accumulated.

Checking the ceiling in the lower level, where that fireplace was on non stop for ten days,

required the ceiling to be "washed", primered, sealed and repainted as if there had been a fire.

And to some extent we were all breathing that soot.

We've all seen it on TV, poor people who have the power turned off, use their ovens & ranges for

heating sometimes to disastrous effect.

Britain famous for coal hobs, then gas & gas light, is phasing out new gas heating sources starting

in 2025,  cooking appliances will be phased out later.

While newer  ranges/ovens evolved past the pilot light phase

there are tens of millions of pilot flames out there in gas water heaters

and gas HVAC systems creating a constant stream of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.

That being said It is almost routine in major cities to read about gas leak explosions destroying

homes and in one notable catastrophe in 2019 in San Francisco which took out at least five

buildings and the San Bruno CA explosion in 2010 which destroyed 40 homes.

San Francisco banned  Gas furnaces, ranges and water heaters in new construction in 2020

giving developers until June of 2021 to complete previously permitted projects.

Most US cities where gas appliance are banned in new constructions are being fairly lenient in

grandfathering existing HVAC so the transition may take decades in the USA if not a hundred years.

Canada is being much stricter. Starting in January 2024, no oil burning or natural gas appliance

in existing homes offices or restaurants can be repaired, they must be replaced with non fossil fuel systems.

New Jersey's master plan bans gas in 2050.

Natural Gas and Fossil Fuel Bans in New Construction | United States | Cushman & Wakefield (cushmanwakefield.com)

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  Split Personality @1.1    3 weeks ago
Color me shocked, another misleading headline from a Questionable source again.

Is the source acceptable here or not? Sure is a lot of talk about sources that have been deemed acceptable.  No point to it, of course.

We've all seen it on TV, poor people who have the power turned off, use their ovens & ranges for heating sometimes to disastrous effect.

A whole lot of things can go wrong when you don't use products in the proper manner.  

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Split Personality @1.1    3 weeks ago
Color me shocked, another misleading headline from a Questionable source again.

that there are so many people in this country willing to believe this nonsense diminishes the chances of survival by our species in the not so distant future. one of the news clips I saw on youtube showed the full chronological development of this story on FOX from fox and fiends to hannity. this story was a misdirection, designed to suck all the media air out of the room, to obscure something happening elsewhere.

I'm willing to bet those feeling the most threatened and indignant about this issue already have electric ranges in their homes.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
1.1.3  cjcold  replied to  devangelical @1.1.2    3 weeks ago

Haven't used my gas range in a few years now. Stuck a two-place induction burner on the stove-top and have been very happy with it.  

A toaster oven sees to the vast majority of my limited baking needs.

For everything else there is always the microwave.

The gas central heat and air I replaced with ceramic space heaters a cast iron stove and a window mounted AC. The only appliance that still runs on gas is the hot water heater and the plan is to replace that with an electric tankless heater.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.4  Tessylo  replied to  Split Personality @1.1    2 weeks ago

Thanks for the truth and the facts SP

Things not found here otherwise.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.5  Tessylo  replied to  cjcold @1.1.3    2 weeks ago

Smart!

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
1.1.6  cjcold  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.5    2 weeks ago

My bank of solar panels and storage batteries are still going strong but the turbine and base couldn't take the high winds we have out here on the prairie.

The whole time I was installing the tower and turbine kit I was thinking to myself that "this thing is way too flimsy!" I regret trying to cut corners on price. 

 
 
 
A. Macarthur
Professor Guide
1.2  A. Macarthur  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    2 weeks ago

2023 U.S. Gas Stove Ban Hoax  refers to a  hoax  and subsequent  viral debate  about stoves that use natural gas supposedly being banned in the United States, which sparked media coverage,  memes  and widespread outrage online in early January 2023. The hoax also notably  incited false claims  that the  Biden  Administration wanted to ban such stoves from American homes. The origination of the controversy began when studies published at the end of 2022 found that gas stoves increased the risk of asthma in children, with government officials then commenting on these studies shortly after and provocative news coverage subsequently going viral. A heated debate ensued, with many on the right claiming that the government aimed to confiscate gas stoves and others on the left making fun of these fears.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  A. Macarthur @1.2    2 weeks ago

Welcome back to the open forum, my friend.

Could we all have a link to that nice narrative?

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
1.2.2  bugsy  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.1    2 weeks ago

Something tells me it is a wikipedia cut and paste. Reason why there is no link is because it is well known wiki is a far left site that is monitored, changed and censored by far left wingers.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.3  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  bugsy @1.2.2    2 weeks ago

I have that same feeling.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
2  Sean Treacy    3 weeks ago

Insanity.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Sean Treacy @2    3 weeks ago

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2.1.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1    3 weeks ago

I'm sorry I can't open that YouTube, because I can imagine what a restaurant owner would say, in fact I thought this even before I got to the article.  One of my clients ran the best little French restaurant in Toronto, and we were good friends, as I became with many of my clients.  He always told me I never need to make a reservation because even if his place was packed full he would set up a table in the kitchen for me.  He convinced me that the only way to cook the best food was on a gas stove, and we made sure that our homes had gas stoves ever since, except for our lakeside home since natural gas was not available there, but we did have a propane barbecue.  What about outdoor barbecues that use propane to fire up the coals?  How about the pollution from them?

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
2.1.2  cjcold  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2.1.1    2 weeks ago

Have been involved in world class BBQ contests for many years now.

Sometimes am a judge at the American Royal in KC.

Sometimes developing new recipes with gun totin Arkansas rednecks.

I do dearly love the tailgating parties at Arrowhead on game days!

That's where you find the best "small batch" geniuses of BBQ!

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
3  Just Jim NC TttH    3 weeks ago
say gas-stove emissions a "cumulative burden" on black, Latino and low-income households that disproportionately experience air pollution, Bloomberg also reports.

Holy shit. Is every fucking thing in the world a dis fucking proportionate burden on minorities? Race card and virtue signal alert!!!

256           256

One cost they aren't figuring in is the electrical requirements for an electric stove. They don't just plug into a 110V wall outlet FFS. Add another $400+ to that $400 supposed cost of the the stove.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3    3 weeks ago

That's right. It's also racist!

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.2  Sparty On  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3    3 weeks ago
One cost they aren't figuring in is the electrical requirements for an electric stove. They don't just plug into a 110V wall outlet FFS. Add another $400+ to that $400 supposed cost of the the stove.

Susan Rice is too stupid to understand that.    That and/or she just doesn’t care.    Doesn’t affect her or Obama negatively in any way.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
3.3  cjcold  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3    2 weeks ago

[removed]

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Guide
4  evilgenius    3 weeks ago

Oh the horrors! Not gas stoves... We have to have our gas stoves!!! How will we ever cook anything again after this idea takes 10 years to achieve fruition and companies revamp their product to be safer? Oh noes! Woe is us... 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  evilgenius @4    3 weeks ago

Oh no, no matter what the expense for the American people we must force them to go to electric stoves before the earth ends next year!

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Guide
4.1.1  evilgenius  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1    3 weeks ago
Oh no, no matter what the expense for the American people we must force them to go to electric stoves before the earth ends next year!

You think this will take a year? HAHAHA! Also current suggested proposals are new design in function and better exhaust before an outright ban. But hey you people know better, huh...

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
4.1.2  zuksam  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1    2 weeks ago

It will cause many deaths because people will keep old worn out gas stoves that should be replaced but there will be no new gas stoves available. People hate cooking on electric stoves, I have one and hate it, it's a glass top piece of shit.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.3  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  zuksam @4.1.2    2 weeks ago

Isn't the food bland when cooked on an electric stove?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.1.4  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.3    2 weeks ago

There's no difference between the two.

What a stupid question.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.5  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @4.1.4    2 weeks ago

I was asking zuksam, but thanks anyway.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
4.1.6  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.3    2 weeks ago

Not necessarily bland but I have found, having cooked with both, that the gas stove offers more finite temperature control and thus more overall good results.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.1.7  Tessylo  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4.1.6    2 weeks ago

Protect your little buddies at all costs.

You know it was a really stupid question.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.1.8  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.5    2 weeks ago

That's how forums work remember V the D?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.1.9  Tessylo  replied to  zuksam @4.1.2    2 weeks ago

Then why didn't you buy a gas stove then?

 Instead of pissing and moaning and whining how you hate it?

And you just made up all that other shit.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.10  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @4.1.8    2 weeks ago

Free speech is the order of the day!

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.11  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @4.1.9    2 weeks ago

zuksam is long gone

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.12  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @4.1.9    2 weeks ago
Then why didn't you buy a gas stove then?

It's much cheaper than an electric stove.

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
4.1.13  zuksam  replied to  Tessylo @4.1.9    2 weeks ago
Then why didn't you buy a gas stove then?

I don't have gas service at my present home, if I did I would have a gas stove. I've had gas stoves in the past and they're much better at heat control. With gas you can see the flame to adjust and it's constant but each of my electric burners reacts differently to it's control knob and switches on and off to regulate heat, the only way to tell how hot it is going to get is to wait and hope. Cooking eggs over-easy on gas is easy but on my electric stove it's a crapshoot.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.1.14  Tessylo  replied to  zuksam @4.1.13    2 weeks ago

If you say so

I don't really care

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.1.15  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.12    2 weeks ago

I'm sure there are comparable prices on gas and electric stoves

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.16  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tessylo @4.1.15    2 weeks ago

Are you saying we should switch to an electric stove?

Because some here are saying the whole thing is a hoax.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
4.2  Drakkonis  replied to  evilgenius @4    3 weeks ago
Oh the horrors!

I find comments like this extremely disturbing. More and more, government agencies are being used in ways outside the mandate that created them for the purpose of turning us into cattle to be managed by idealogues who "know" what's best for us. And so many of you seem to want to be managed, as long as someone else is responsible for you. For giving you what you want. As long as the lies agree with what you want, you can't believe them fast enough. 

I think, one day in the not too distant future, everything is going to go to hell. You're going to wonder what happened. And the people you helped bring it about will tell you who's fault it is and you'll fall right in line, doing what they want, perpetuating your own subjugation. 

After all, just look at history. 

 
 
 
Snuffy
PhD Guide
4.2.1  Snuffy  replied to  Drakkonis @4.2    3 weeks ago
More and more, government agencies are being used in ways outside the mandate that created them for the purpose of turning us into cattle to be managed by idealogues who "know" what's best for us.

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

Who knew at the time it wasn't just science fiction but a blueprint for the future...

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Guide
4.2.2  evilgenius  replied to  Drakkonis @4.2    3 weeks ago
I find comments like this extremely disturbing.

Do you really? It's takes like yours that I find extremally disturbing. I guess we could do without stop signs and speed limits imposed by an imperial government, eh? Fuck that EPA, Lake Eerie on fire was a nice night light. Fuck the FDA - let big pharma poison people at will! We don't need no gobmimt... 

More and more, government agencies are being used in ways outside the mandate that created them for the purpose of turning us into cattle to be managed by idealogues who "know" what's best for us.

Sounds like this is just want regulatory agency is supposed to do. Point out where something might be harmful - study it and propose changes to make it safer. IF you read up on this they aren't outright banning gas stoves. They are also proposing design changes and/or better exhaust. IF that can't be done - and it will take several years to know - then a ban would be proposed.

And so many of you seem to want to be managed, as long as someone else is responsible for you.

I'll get back to you right after I'm done with completing self open heart surgery... I don't need professionals managing me! I don't need gobmint - I can count how much pollution is in the air and decide when its okay to go outside without a gasmask. 

As long as the lies agree with what you want, you can't believe them fast enough. 

Yeah... it's lies? It's on you to prove the lie. Can you tell if current gas ranges are harmful to children or are you relying on a talking head with no degree on anything but bullshit to tell you it's a lie? Awesome, we don't need to manage the border or crime. We're all self sufficient.

I think, one day in the not too distant future, everything is going to go to hell. You're going to wonder what happened. And the people you helped bring it about will tell you who's fault it is and you'll fall right in line, doing what they want, perpetuating your own subjugation. 

That's what they said the government told people they could only drive a certain speed and had to wear seat belts. It's been all down hill from there and we are certainly doomed. 

Hey... Your caviler attitude about gutting government regulations actually kills people when in practice. 

After all, just look at history. 
 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
4.2.3  Drakkonis  replied to  evilgenius @4.2.2    3 weeks ago

You speak as if there is an actual example where governments don't eventually turn on their own citizens. The worst of us always, always seek power and act in their own interests. Apparently, you think human nature is better than it actually is and so, are prepared to place your trust in those who govern us, even though there is undeniable evidence they are incapable of doing so. 

As for the rest of your post...

I am not against regulatory agencies in principle. The EPA was a good idea as the greediest of capitalists don't care about burning rivers. However, the EPA applies the most egregious interpretation to their "mandate" that it is simply outright oppression. Their definition of what constitutes "navigable water" is whatever they need it to be for whatever they are attempting to do. I am not in any way exaggerating when I say that if you have standing water on your property after the snow melts, they get to regulate what you can do with your land, no matter how far away it is from actual navigable water your property might be. 

Further, I'm willing to bet a lot that the first you ever heard about the "dangers" of gas stoves was this article. As far as I can tell, this issue has come out of nowhere. More importantly, even if studies have concluded gas stoves have some issues with them, they are a. nowhere near what the article attempts to portray them as, and b. that simply breathing the air in any metropolitan area is orders of magnitude worse. 

Yeah... it's lies? It's on you to prove the lie. Can you tell if current gas ranges are harmful to children or are you relying on a talking head with no degree on anything but bullshit to tell you it's a lie?

Actually, I think it's a lie because a. the Biden admin is the one making it an issue and b. this appears to be a heretofore unknown issue. It is as if they published an article that it has long been known that the color yellow causes cancer just by looking at it but, no one knew it before the article was published. I read a lot of stuff. One of my favorite subjects is science. Never heard anything remotely pointing to gas stoves. I also have a subscription to Consumer Reports and their latest issue was about gas stoves. No mention of such a danger. So, go ahead and join their bandwagon. Don't use common sense. After all, your betters know better than you, right? 

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Guide
4.2.4  evilgenius  replied to  Drakkonis @4.2.3    3 weeks ago
You speak as if there is an actual example where governments don't eventually turn on their own citizens.

Our government is made up of citizens and has procedures to remove them if they truly overstep.

The worst of us always, always seek power and act in their own interests.

The current crop of populists are showing us that quite well, but the mid-terms have shown that power waning.

However, the EPA applies the most egregious interpretation to their "mandate" that it is simply outright oppression.

Again there are systems in place to push back - elections and courts.  

I am not in any way exaggerating when I say that if you have standing water on your property after the snow melts, they get to regulate what you can do with your land, no matter how far away it is from actual navigable water your property might be. 

If your water leaks into a navigable waters it should be regulated. I actually read the rules and standing water IS NOT regulated. I live near a river and the largest body of fresh water on the planet it feeds into. 

Further, I'm willing to bet a lot that the first you ever heard about the "dangers" of gas stoves was this article.

You would lose that bet. 

More importantly, even if studies have concluded gas stoves have some issues with them, they are a. nowhere near what the article attempts to portray them as...

This is about a study. Nothing has been concluded - the rest is bullshit.

Actually, I think it's a lie because a. the Biden admin is the one making it...

Yup.. you accuse others of being lemmings and not thinking for themselves and then you come up with this obvious point. HA!

Never heard anything remotely pointing to gas stoves.

And now you have.

Don't use common sense. After all, your betters know better than you, right? 

Don't use common sense. Jump into the (gas?) fire with both feet because a government agency commissioned 4 people to look into a correlation to see IF there is an issue and your propaganda masters told you it was the worst thing to happen since the dumping mercury into Lake Superior was banned.

This is ALL that matters on this topic -

“I am not looking to ban gas stoves and the CPSC has no proceeding to do so,” Alexander Hoehn-Saric said in a statement Wednesday. He added that the four-person commission is researching emissions from the appliances and looking for ways to reduce related indoor air-quality hazards. 

A government study. Nothing more. But yeah let's go crazy and tell everyone in the country the President is going to take people's gas stoves. Let's interview restaurant owners on political partisan TV shows. Let's crank up the outrage machine to 11!

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.2.5  Sparty On  replied to  evilgenius @4.2.4    3 weeks ago
I live near a river and the largest body of fresh water on the planet it feeds into. 

You live near Lake Baikal?

Interesting .....

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Guide
4.2.6  evilgenius  replied to  Sparty On @4.2.5    3 weeks ago
You live near Lake Baikal?

Lake Superior. It is the largest freshwater lake by surface area, the 3rd largest by volume.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
4.2.7  Drakkonis  replied to  evilgenius @4.2.4    3 weeks ago

I will not bother to engage you further. I would ask you to remember this conversation ten to twenty years from now and then think about what you've said, but I don't think it would make any difference to you. You will simply continue to blame those who tried to show you reality over what you want to be true. 

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Guide
4.2.8  evilgenius  replied to  Drakkonis @4.2.7    3 weeks ago
I will not bother to engage you further.

Awesome! Feel free to put me on ignore.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
4.2.9  Drakkonis  replied to  evilgenius @4.2.8    3 weeks ago
Awesome! Feel free to put me on ignore.

[deleted]

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Professor Guide
4.2.10  Drakkonis  replied to  Drakkonis @4.2.9    3 weeks ago

Gotta love censorship. Somehow, stating that I don't put people on ignore or flag their comments violates the rules of this place. I would appeal to Perrie but, at this point, I simply don't care. I've come to realize that people just don't want to hear things that oppose their own views. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.2.11  devangelical  replied to  Drakkonis @4.2.7    3 weeks ago
[deleted]
 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.2.12  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @4.2.11    3 weeks ago
golly, that might be cutting it close. aren't we running late for the 2nd coming by a quarter century already? /s

Are you?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.2.13  Texan1211  replied to  Drakkonis @4.2.10    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.2.14  Sparty On  replied to  evilgenius @4.2.6    3 weeks ago

Good that you clarified your misleading claim.   And technically it isn’t the largest body of fresh water by volume.   

That would be the Nile river I believe

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.2.15  Sparty On  replied to  Drakkonis @4.2.10    3 weeks ago

[Deleted

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.2.16  Sparty On  replied to  Sparty On @4.2.14    3 weeks ago

I meant by surface area for the Nile not volume

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.2.17  Tessylo  replied to  evilgenius @4.2.4    2 weeks ago

I've heard of many GAS EXPLOSIONS OVER THE YEARS IN PRIVATE HOMES, BUSINESSES, ETC., ETC.

Now you've heard of more examples. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.2.18  Tessylo  replied to  evilgenius @4.2.8    2 weeks ago

That's what certain posters always say when they lose the argument, like a child having a tantrum

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.2.19  Tessylo  replied to  Drakkonis @4.2.10    2 weeks ago

True, you don't like the truth and losing the argument or having your ass handed to you, as usual

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.2.20  Tessylo  replied to  Tessylo @4.2.17    2 weeks ago

That was meant for drak EG

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
4.2.21  cjcold  replied to  Snuffy @4.2.1    2 weeks ago

And the planet continues to warm and be polluted by burning fossil fuels.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
4.3  Greg Jones  replied to  evilgenius @4    3 weeks ago

Oh my, how have we survived all these decades with wood and gas stoves!

How did we ever get by without electricity!

Are people too stupid to use a bit of ventilation in their homes?

And it wouldn't just be stoves....most water heaters use natural gas because it is....

plentiful and much cheaper.

Yet another dumb Dem idea that will never come to pass.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
4.3.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Greg Jones @4.3    3 weeks ago
most water heaters use natural gas because it is.... plentiful and much cheaper.

Difference is, the water heater exhausts to the outside as opposed to the stove. But nothing is off the table with the greenies. Eventually all gas appliances will be subject. Like my gas fireplace.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
5  Jasper2529    3 weeks ago

Wait ... what's this???????

'Rules for thee': First lady roasted online for cooking on gas stove the Biden admin is looking to ban

An old photo of first lady Jill Biden cooking with a gas stove has gone viral this week as the   Biden administration   is weighing the ban of such appliances, according to a report.

"Hey @Antoni, what are you cooking tonight?" Biden wrote on Twitter in September 2020 , including the photo of herself using a gas stovetop to cook and directing the question toward Canadian chef and TV personality Antoni Porowski.

The photo surfaced just days after Bloomberg first reported that the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is considering a   ban on gas stoves   because of concerns about indoor air pollutants from the appliances.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
5.1  cjcold  replied to  Jasper2529 @5    2 weeks ago
An old photo

But hey, any way to hate the Bidens for an imaginary fault is fair game?

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
6  Jasper2529    3 weeks ago

So let me get this straight. Once again, Biden and his Marxist zealots think that they can mandate Americans to obey without question. That means all homeowners and restaurants must convert to electric stoves. Good luck with that! 

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Guide
6.1  evilgenius  replied to  Jasper2529 @6    3 weeks ago
So let me get this straight.

You don't have it straight. It's not even close to being a done deal and IF it does go into effect it would only apply to new construction and products. Buy never let logic or facts get in the way of your outrage. 

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
6.1.1  Jasper2529  replied to  evilgenius @6.1    3 weeks ago
It's not even close to being a done deal and IF it does go into effect it would only apply to new construction and products.

I never said it was a "done deal", so don't try to put your words in my mouth.

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Guide
6.1.2  evilgenius  replied to  Jasper2529 @6.1.1    3 weeks ago

Then why all the outrage for something that will likely not happen? 

“I am not looking to ban gas stoves and the  CPSC  has no proceeding to do so,” Alexander Hoehn-Saric said in a statement Wednesday. He added that the four-person commission is researching emissions from the appliances and looking for ways to reduce related indoor air-quality hazards. 

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
6.1.3  Jasper2529  replied to  evilgenius @6.1.2    3 weeks ago
Then why all the outrage for something that will likely not happen? 

I suggest you ask that question of someone who is actually outraged, because it is not I. Have a great day!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6.2  TᵢG  replied to  Jasper2529 @6    3 weeks ago
Marxist zealots

WOXHXQU7KJDUWEUPHGGVFEPR7Y.jpg?auto=webp

The Biden administration will be unable to force such a move (forced migration) from gas stoves to electric.   It will not occur.   Nothing to worry about.

And I think capitalism is safe too, so no worries about those powerful Marxist forces seeking an economic revolution to remove all capitalists from positions of power and have all domestic industry in the USA taken over and owned by the workers.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
6.2.1  Jasper2529  replied to  TᵢG @6.2    3 weeks ago

Oh, hi, TiG. Nice to see you. Thanks for stating the obvious.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6.2.2  TᵢG  replied to  Jasper2529 @6.2.1    3 weeks ago

"Marxist zealots" suggests a need to state the obvious.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
6.2.3  Jasper2529  replied to  TᵢG @6.2.2    3 weeks ago

Suit yourself.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6.2.4  TᵢG  replied to  Jasper2529 @6.2.3    3 weeks ago

I feel obligated to dispel nonsense.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
6.2.5  Jasper2529  replied to  TᵢG @6.2.4    3 weeks ago
[deleted]
 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.2.6  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @6.2.4    3 weeks ago

As do I.    

Which why I’ve pointed out how stupid this idea is.

Total stupidity kowtowing to the green weenies on the left.

Dumb, dumb, dumb ....

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6.2.7  TᵢG  replied to  Jasper2529 @6.2.5    3 weeks ago

I made no such claim.   Looks like another apology is in order.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6.2.8  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @6.2.6    3 weeks ago

This is going nowhere, no need to be concerned.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
6.2.9  Jasper2529  replied to  TᵢG @6.2.7    3 weeks ago
[deleted]
 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6.2.10  TᵢG  replied to  Jasper2529 @6.2.9    3 weeks ago

Denying your sarcastic words does not work; they are still there.   Who do you think is dumb enough to buy your denial?

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
6.2.11  Jasper2529  impassed  TᵢG @6.2.10    3 weeks ago
 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.2.12  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @6.2.8    3 weeks ago

Well then, it just illustrates Biden’s stupidity in proposing something that is going nowhere.

It’s political, partisan tripe.     Nothing more.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
6.2.13  TᵢG  replied to  Sparty On @6.2.12    3 weeks ago

I find much of the ‘work’ of partisans to be ill-conceived and ultimately a waste.

But it is rarely stupidity at play.   Mostly it is emergent nonsense from partisan motivations.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.2.14  Sparty On  replied to  TᵢG @6.2.13    3 weeks ago

Potato, potahto ..... partisan driven proposals like this are stupid and a complete waste of time..

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
6.2.15  Tessylo  replied to  TᵢG @6.2.10    2 weeks ago

See how some throw up an impasse for being told truth and facts and have lost the argument with their lies?

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
6.2.16  cjcold  replied to  TᵢG @6.2    2 weeks ago
the USA taken over and owned by the workers

Guess we'll have to fire all of the cops, firemen and paramedics then.

A more blatant exercise of socialism I have never seen.

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
6.3  pat wilson  replied to  Jasper2529 @6    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
6.5  Tessylo  replied to  Jasper2529 @6    2 weeks ago

What is a Marxist zealot Jasper?

I see you also have problems with truth and facts.

It doesn't mean that

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
7  Sparty On    3 weeks ago

Good God, Biden truly is a ninny.

All who voted for him must be so proud.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
8  Jasper2529    3 weeks ago
The federal agency plans to open public comment on the issue later this winter. Meanwhile, there is a bipartisan call in Congress for an alternative to having Americans buy an electric stove, which costs about $400.

Only $400? Really?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.1  Sparty On  replied to  Jasper2529 @8    3 weeks ago

Not to mention electric stoves are more expensive to operate and going higher as electric rates go up.    Approximately 40-60% more right now.

Biden truly is a dumbass.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
8.1.1  Jasper2529  replied to  Sparty On @8.1    3 weeks ago
Biden truly is a dumbass.

Biden and his Administration have been complete failures in every respect.

That became even more evident when the Mexican president thanked Biden for not building even a meter of new southern border wall/barriers during his presidency. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.1.2  Sparty On  replied to  Jasper2529 @8.1.1    3 weeks ago

Yep, Biden was best described by Robert Gates regarding his nearly perfect record of foreign policy failures.

Why should anything else be different?

Folks who voted for him must be so proud.

 
 
 
evilgenius
Professor Guide
8.1.3  evilgenius  replied to  Sparty On @8.1.2    3 weeks ago
Folks who voted for him must be so proud.

Was there a better option? Biden or Trump... hmmmm I'd vote for Biden again IF that's the choice presented. We should be working together to make sure it's not.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.1.4  Sparty On  replied to  evilgenius @8.1.3    3 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
8.2  Jack_TX  replied to  Jasper2529 @8    3 weeks ago
Only $400? Really?

No.  No way.  Obviously.  

And if you could find one for that, it's probably not something you'd put in your home.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.1  Split Personality  replied to  Jack_TX @8.2    3 weeks ago

Electric ranges are generally less expensive than their gas counterparts, according to the home services company HomeAdvisor. You can generally expect to pay $360 to $1,800 for an electric range, and $400 to $2,100 for a gas range, the company notes. But those costs can increase by hundreds of dollars if you're making a switch and need to install an electrical outlet or a gas hookup.

Ongoing energy costs vary by state, but in general, gas ranges cost less to run than electric ranges. Typically, though, the ongoing cost difference isn't significant enough to be a deciding factor.

Gas vs. Electric Range: How to Choose - NerdWallet

That being said, you can spend up to $19K on either '"fuel" style.

Part of this is just nostalgia and part is the imagined status of gas.

In practice, electrics are far better scientifically than gas ranges/ovens.

High Heat

Manufacturers of gas and electric ranges have been in a race for years to maximize the output of large burners, which you use to, for example, boil a big pot of water for pasta.

Which is faster?   Electric, by a pretty big margin. Of the 72 electric smoothtop ranges currently in our ratings, nearly half earn the top rating of Excellent. Thirty-eight models earn a rating of Very Good. For gas, none earn the top rating of Excellent, although nearly 50 of the 86 models in our current ratings earn a rating of Very Good.

Gas vs. Electric Range: Which Is Better? - Consumer Reports

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
8.2.2  zuksam  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.1    2 weeks ago

My problem with my electric stove is not maximum power it's trying to find the sweet spot at low to moderate levels, gas you can just look at the flame and know where you're at but electric you have to wait and see what happens. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.3  Split Personality  replied to  zuksam @8.2.2    2 weeks ago

True.

I think fire is in our collective memories if not our DNA.

Fire means survival.

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
8.2.4  zuksam  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.3    2 weeks ago

I was considering converting to propane and I found the perfect compromise stove, the oven was electric but the top burners were gas/propane. This would be perfect for me since I already have the 220v plug and it would allow me to use portable 20-40lb propane tanks that I could fill anywhere.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.5  Split Personality  replied to  zuksam @8.2.4    2 weeks ago

Natural gas is lighter than propane and essentially straight out of the ground, is a mixture of methane, butane, nitrogen, helium and propane.

Propane is a byproduct of distilling crude oil.

It can blacken the bottom of pots and pans because it burns hotter

but it is cheaper because it has higher BTU's and generally considered better to

cook with than natural gas which has half of the BTU's.

With venting to the outside it seems like a good compromise.

If the oven has convection cooking its a grand slam.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.2.6  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.5    2 weeks ago
but it is cheaper because it has higher BTU's and generally considered better to cook with than natural gas which has half of the BTU's.

Actually, natural gas is usually cheaper than propane on a per BTU energy basis.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.7  Split Personality  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.6    2 weeks ago

I haven't purchased NG for many years, propane maybe twice a year.

Maybe this is more clear.

Cost and Efficiency

The true cost of propane vs. natural gas for your residence will depend on several factors, including if your home is outfitted for the fuels . But, for this comparison, we’ll examine propane and natural gas cost in terms of BTUs and gallons.

At the time this article was written, the average cost of natural gas cost is $6.23 per 1,000 cubic feet , which is roughly one million BTUs. The U.S. average cost for propane is $2.41 per gallon . One million BTUs of natural gas is roughly 11.20 gallons of propane. Which means for the same amount of fuel, you’ll pay $6.23 for natural gas and $26.99 for propane.

However, actual cost should also take into consideration efficiency

The more efficient the fuel is, the less you’ll use, which plays a role in overall cost. And, overall, propane is the more efficient fuel.

One cubic foot of propane equals 2,516 BTUs, while one cubic foot of natural gas equals 1,030 BTUs. That means, propane is more than twice the energy of natural gas .

While the cost per gallon is less for natural gas, you’ll use more of it to heat the same appliances. If you get two times the heat from propane, naturally, you’ll use less fuel.

In this combined round, propane wins for efficiency and overall cost.

Propane vs. Natural Gas: A Comparison For Homeowners | Santa Energy

Of course, its just the opinion of a company that sells natural gas under

regulated prices determined by a PUC versus unregulated distilled propane 

which is considered a "delivered fuel" where the profit margin is whatever the

market will bear.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.2.8  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.7    2 weeks ago

Lol .... I don’t need clarity.    I’ve been designing and installing fuel systems like this for decades.    Let me hit the highlight for you from the article you linked:

At the time this article was written, the average cost of natural gas cost is $6.23 per 1,000 cubic feet , which is roughly one million BTUs. The U.S. average cost for propane is $2.41 per gallon . One million BTUs of natural gas is roughly 11.20 gallons of propane. Which means for the same amount of fuel, you’ll pay $6.23 for natural gas and $26.99 for propane.

Pretty clear.    One paid over 4 times more for same volume (gas by total BTU) of propane over NG.    The possibility of higher efficiencies with propane fired equipment simply can’t make up that difference.   Not even close.

It’s pretty simple math but it is old math and not new math.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.9  Split Personality  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.8    2 weeks ago

Yes, I know.  But your many life experiences aren't the topic.

Natural gas prices are artificial.

Natural gas is about 40% as effective as propane.

Natural gas produces a myriad of emissions including lead.

Propane as a fuel only produces moisture and carbon dioxide.

So when the "mean greenies" prevail,

the value of propane will increase, and the unregulated pricing will become 

more competitive for flame lovers willing to switch to propane.

Propane already works well for the farming and rural communities.

12 million households already use propane.

Propane is the fuel of choice for forklifts especially those used exclusively

indoors, the price isn't a factor.

Propane is also used in air-conditioning units, refrigerators and freezers

where there is no natural gas or electricity availability.

76% of propane comes from processing natural gas, the rest from processing

crude oil.  Propane is much more popular overseas.

In 2020 American propane exports exceeded our crude oil exports for the first

time. While we make 1.8 million barrels a day 80% will be exported.

Pretty clear.  Natural gas appliance days are numbered, just like coal.

Might be decades or a hundred years but the writing is on the wall.

The pricing argument?

In a country where tap water is on average $0.004 per gallon

and bottled water is $1.22 per gallon while specialty waters like Pelligrino and

Gerolsteiner are as much as $3.00 plus per gallon, price doesn't seem to matter

to many people. 

It's a 4.5 billion dollar industry in many cases selling bottled tap water...

The US will survive.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.10  Ender  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.9    2 weeks ago

Eh. When I was a teenager I knew people that had a huge propane tank.

It took half the tank to heat the pool....jrSmiley_100_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
8.2.11  zuksam  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.7    2 weeks ago
the average cost of natural gas cost is $6.23 per 1,000 cubic feet , which is roughly one million BTUs. The U.S. average cost for propane is $2.41 per gallon . One million BTUs of natural gas is roughly 11.20 gallons of propane. Which means for the same amount of fuel, you’ll pay $6.23 for natural gas and $26.99 for propane.

Propane may contain more energy since 11.2 gallons of LP only makes 407 cubic feet of gas vapor but as the information you provided above states NG costs 6.23 for one million BTUs while LP costs 26.99 for one million BTUs. So propane costs more per BTU (a lot more).

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.12  Split Personality  replied to  zuksam @8.2.11    2 weeks ago

Going down the road as local governments are banning new natural gas hook

ups, how long will price regulation remain in place protecting the NG price?

When propane competes with electric, electric prices won't change

but propane may.  

Propane is part of the Big Oil and the prices will be decided by and large 

by falling natural gas profits at Exxon et al.

IMHO Propane has so many advantages its worth the extra $

Like I implied earlier, we think nothing of buying outrageously priced bottled

water for convenience or health reasons or prestige,

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
8.2.13  Ender  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.12    2 weeks ago
Going down the road as local governments are banning new natural gas hook ups

I thought I read some of the reasoning was worry about explosions.

we think nothing of buying outrageously priced bottled water for convenience or health reasons or prestige

I keep one of those I guess you would call water coolers. Like in an office. Have that and an extra bottle. It comes in handy after a hurricane.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.14  Split Personality  replied to  Ender @8.2.13    2 weeks ago

San Bruno CA, 2010 a pipeline exploded destroying 40 homes

San Fransisco/Brisbane 2019 another pipeline destroyed 8 homes and

businesses

Innumerable examples throughout the North East of gas related explosions

taking out single homes. 

Most major cities in California banned new hook ups.

Canada already has and is moving to prevent repairs to existing appliances by 2025

Most of the EU is similar to Canada

Even England.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.2.15  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.9    2 weeks ago

I can’t make it any simpler.    Natural gas almost always costs less per energy unit than Propane.    You have stated otherwise, which is not correct.

Just assuring that our readers here are not being misled by our dear leaders here.

Your attempts to confuse the issue with discussions about water choices is hilarious though.    Milwaukee’s Best costs less than Flensburger Pilsener ..... does that one work for you as well?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
8.2.16  Tacos!  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.15    2 weeks ago
Milwaukee’s Best

Cheap, but underrated.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.17  Split Personality  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.15    2 weeks ago

Natural gas is going to be restricted going forward.

It's already happening here city by city or county.

Worldwide, Britain, Canada and the EU have established deadlines and policies.

Electric will replace the bulk and propane will replace the rest.

When people switch to propane they won't miss natural gas at all.

Comparing a government regulated commodity to a free market one is faulty.

Propane used to be cheaper than natural gas when we produced too much and

had no markets, natural gas was $3.82 and propane was $3.08 just 8 years ago.

More than 80% of todays propane is exported. If it is diverted to domestic

use the current price should come down.

If municipalities use their current distribution systems the propane would

become price regulated and much cheaper.

The possibilities are endless.

I would have used an automobile analogy but I realize that would have been pointless also.

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
8.2.18  zuksam  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.12    2 weeks ago
how long will price regulation remain in place protecting the NG price

As long as it is sold through a public utility NG's price will be regulated just like electricity.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.2.19  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.17    2 weeks ago

[Deleted]

Natural gas will never been phased out in our lifetime.    There aren’t enough green energy resources on earth right now to replace that power with all electric in that timeframe.

[Deleted]

The only power source that has a chance is Nuclear.    Particularly Cold Fusion since it is waste neutral in theory.   But that is decades away at best.    Then the grid must be upgraded, generation plants need to be built which is more decades away at best with Herculean federal and congressional cooperation.

How’s cooperation been working out lately in congress and the Fed?    Right .... so now  add more years ..... 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.20  Split Personality  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.19    2 weeks ago
Natural gas will never been phased out in our lifetime.

No one ever said that it would be. 

Coal tried to replace wood. The States are laced with old canals used to bring coal to major cities.  The switch from heating by wood fireplaces to coal required new equipment, inserts, ranges and furnaces.  Coal superheated the industrial revolution and made railroads the king, killing the old canal systems.  Coal reigned for a hundred years until WWII when oil heat became safe.  New furnaces were required... Then natural gas and electric all but pushed oil out of 90% of American homes by 1980, again requiring new ranges, new furnaces etc.

Coal will be dead by 2030 in the US except for some electrical generation even in TX where natural gas is everywhere.  Only 130,000 homes still use coal for heat

Oil heating is prevalent in New England where they still build new homes with oil heat. Only 8.5 million homes still use oil and that number is in decline.

Natural gas is just beginning a long journey into specialized acceptance, like relacing coal for electrical generation. 

How long it takes doesn't matter.

What matters is taking the first step.

Most appliances are supposed last 20 years, 30 tops, so every replacement will be subject to constantly changing building codes.

Change is the only constant in life.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.2.21  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.20    2 weeks ago
No one ever said that it would be.

Parse some more.    You said:

Electric will replace the bulk and propane will replace the rest.

Your comment is clear.    Electric and propane will replace NG.     Do you want to learn more?

 

Coal tried to replace wood. The States are laced with old canals used to bring coal to major cities.  The switch from heating by wood fireplaces to coal required new equipment, inserts, ranges and furnaces.  Coal superheated the industrial revolution and made railroads the king, killing the old canal systems.  Coal reigned for a hundred years until WWII when oil heat became safe.  New furnaces were required... Then natural gas and electric all but pushed oil out of 90% of American homes by 1980, again requiring new ranges, new furnaces etc.

Coal will be dead by 2030 in the US except for some electrical generation even in TX where natural gas is everywhere.  Only 130,000 homes still use coal for heat

Such a simplistic analysis.    Coal won’t be dead by 2030 anymore than wood will.    Not that fast.    That’s just a greenie leftist wet dream.    Each energy source grew out distribution.    Most places that didn’t have access to coal used wood.    No coal distribution system to much of rural America but wood was usually readily available.

Oil heating is prevalent in New England where they still build new homes with oil heat. Only 8.5 million homes still use oil and that number is in decline.

Heating oil only because NG distribution grids capable of transporting the required energy were never developed in those areas.

Natural gas is just beginning a long journey into specialized acceptance, like relacing coal for electrical generation. 

Not even close to the same thing.    NG is readily available in much of the USA and already in high usage.    Coal wasn’t as prevalent.    Electric replaced wood in much of rural USA as the electric grid was developed through utility companies and customer owned Co-ops.     I’m a member of just such a Co-op.

How long it takes doesn't matter.

It does matter when loons on the left are pushing unrealistic time frames.

What matters is taking the first step.

First steps are good and are usually required to complete any process.

[deleted]

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.22  Split Personality  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.21    2 weeks ago

Think outside the box, don't be the box.

U.S. home heating has been going through a  transition over the last two decades. Electricity has steadily been replacing gas and biofuel/wood-powered home heating systems for new homes, and powers almost half of the heating systems in single-family homes built in 2020.

Here’s how the share of heat sources for new houses changed between 2000 and 2020:

Fuel 2000 % of Heating for New Homes 2020 % of Heating for New Homes
Gas 70% 55%
Electricity 27% 45%
Other 4% 1%
Charted: Home Heating Systems in the U.S. (visualcapitalist.com)

Fossil fuels have a finite limit.  Electricity is the only power the we can create.

The point is to bridge the gap to solar, wind, nuclear or sustainable fusion before the fossil fuels run out completely.

The process has already begun whether you choose to see it or not.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.2.23  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.22    2 weeks ago

Lol .... no outside the box thinking required.   Never said the “process” hadn’t begun.  [Deleted]

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.24  Split Personality  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.23    2 weeks ago
Natural gas will never been phased out
Never said the “process” hadn’t begun.

Which of your statements would like to stick to?

Like wood, coal and heating oil, NG has seen its high point and will be slowly replaced for home use by electric because it's cheaper to build homes for electric and not deal with NG utility permits, connection costs, green meanies and the dangers of carbon monoxide, fire and explosion.

Some people prefer candle light to LED bulbs, whatever.

There will always be clingers to the different old ways.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8.2.25  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.24    2 weeks ago
NG has seen its high point and will be slowly replaced for home use by electric because it's cheaper to build homes for electric and not deal with NG utility permits, connection costs, green meanies and the dangers of carbon monoxide, fire and explosion.

Oh, in other words the article is spot on!

Thanks.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.26  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @8.2.25    2 weeks ago

Since it's from your favorite "news source" and is undated I'm not sure if Joseph is completely up to speed on this subject or if this is just an old bash Biden article.

The Inflation Reduction Act passed in August of 2022 has a complete range of incentives, rebates and restrictions for replacing any gas appliances or installing a heat pump.

Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 - What it Means for You | Department of Energy

Furthermore if you want to learn more about the subject you can always look to California.

Benzene is a widely used industrial chemical. It’s produced synthetically, as well as by natural processes such as forest fires and volcanoes. Manufacturers use it to make dyes, plastics, fibers, resins, pesticides, detergents, lubricants and other products. It’s present in gasoline and crude oil, as well as tobacco smoke.

Exposure to benzene causes human cells to malfunction, according to the   Centers for Disease Control and Prevention   (CDC). Symptoms of poisoning from breathing the gas include tremors, irregular heartbeat, headaches, confusion, dizziness and even death.

Long-term benzene exposure can lead to even more impacts, including cancer, anemia, excessive bleeding, irregular menstrual periods and a weakened immune system, per the CDC. Even if benzene levels are low, the toxic chemical can accumulate in the body over a lifetime.

“There is really no safe threshold,” says   Philip J. Landrigan , a pediatrician and public health physician at Boston College who was not involved with the study, to the   New York Times ’ Elena Shao.

The researchers argue that their findings support policies to phase out gas appliances and replace them with electric alternatives to reduce environmental impacts. California, for instance, will  phase out the sale  of all new gas furnaces and water heaters by 2030, and roughly  50 municipalities  within the state have banned or discouraged the installation of gas stoves in new construction. The federal Inflation Reduction Act also  includes incentives for homeowners  who install electric induction cooktops.

Natural gas combustion is responsible for roughly   80 percent   of all residential and commercial carbon dioxide emissions in the United States. Though appliances that run on electricity do not completely erase emissions (as the   majority of electricity   is still generated by coal, natural gas, petroleum and other fossil fuels), advocates say they are more sustainable than those powered by gas. And   transitioning   power plants that run on fossil fuels to renewable sources, such as wind and solar, will decrease electricity's emissions.

Gas Stoves Are Leaking Toxins Into California Homes | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine

I trust the Smithsonian, do you?

Thanks for the opportunity to inform our readers. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.27  Split Personality  replied to  Jack_TX @8.2    2 weeks ago
And if you could find one for that, it's probably not something you'd put in your home.

Well the IRA of 2022 from last August does offer substantial tax credits for upgrading or

converting from gas to electricity including allowances for a larger service panel, wiring etc

Looks like they thought of everything including limits per household income.

This is the best chart I could find.  

Inflation Reduction Act for Heating and Air Conditioning (Complete Article) (alpinehomeair.com)

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
8.2.28  Jack_TX  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.27    2 weeks ago

Sure. But a $400 range is still crap.

That kinda also opens the lid on a larger problem with programs like this that offer tax incentives.  They don't matter to poor people.  A genuinely poor person doesn't have $400 to buy a new range and then wait to get it back on their tax refund.  They don't have $40-$50k to spend on an EV, they don't own a home to cover with solar panels and they don't have $3k to convert to a tankless water heater.

So we're doing this thing Democrats do where we pay affluent people to do things they can afford to do and will probably do anyway eventually just so we can "feel better" about "being green" by solving "problems" we made up in the first place.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.29  Split Personality  replied to  Jack_TX @8.2.28    2 weeks ago

Math, Jack.

The poorest among us aren't really the targets are they? Homeless, Renters?

This ten year program is aimed at the middle class who routinely renovate or replace

major appliances as they upgrade to a new home or decide to renovate the existing

home or are just tired of buying igniters every year

If a $1200 electric range gets the average family a new service panel and wiring with a

tax credit for $600 plus whatever the service panel and wiring cost  whose going to buy

a $400 piece of crap intended for the rental market?  Its a weak argument.

Yes you have to float the cost until the tax credit rolls around,

I have done it for cars, solar, insulation, heat pump and water heater so far,

watching my home get quieter and more comfortable while my electric bills 

declined by 50%.

By the way this was a bipartisan, bicameral piece of legislation that Mitch McConnell

pushed to get through the Senate, so bitching about the Democrats is really more 

bias and perception than reality.

Thanks

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
8.2.30  Jack_TX  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.29    2 weeks ago
Math, Jack.

Yes.  Exactly.  It was my major in college.

The poorest among us aren't really the targets are they? Homeless, Renters?

This ten year program is aimed at the middle class who routinely renovate or replace

major appliances as they upgrade to a new home or decide to renovate the existing

home or are just tired of buying igniters every year

If a $1200 electric range gets the average family a new service panel and wiring with a

tax credit for $600 plus whatever the service panel and wiring cost  whose going to buy

a $400 piece of crap intended for the rental market?  Its a weak argument.

Yes you have to float the cost until the tax credit rolls around,

I have done it for cars, solar, insulation, heat pump and water heater so far,

watching my home get quieter and more comfortable while my electric bills 

declined by 50%.

Exactly.  We are buying shit for affluent people who can and would pay for it themselves, and then pretending that somehow reduces inflation.  Meanwhile, we've hit the debt ceiling again.

By the way this was a bipartisan, bicameral piece of legislation that Mitch McConnell

pushed to get through the Senate, so bitching about the Democrats is really more 

bias and perception than reality.

Thanks

Riiiiight.  Which I'm sure is why he said this:

This very day, President Biden and Democrats are having a big celebration for their latest reckless spending bill, which they pretended would reduce inflation, but which nonpartisan experts say will actually make it worse. They could not look more out of touch if they tried.”  (Sen. McConnell, Remarks, 9/13/2022)
 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
8.2.31  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Jack_TX @8.2.30    2 weeks ago

I got a new heat pump and a diesel car subsidized while making 6 figures,

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.32  Split Personality  replied to  Jack_TX @8.2.30    2 weeks ago

My Bad, the IRA22, came about because Manchin flipped on McConnell in 2022.

McConnell was all in on the Infrastructure Bill this year even posing with Biden in Kentucky.

Oh those politicians./S

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Masters Quiet
8.2.33  Jack_TX  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.32    2 weeks ago
My Bad, the IRA22, came about because Manchin flipped on McConnell in 2022.

Fair enough.  With all of the massive spending we've done since the pandemic, it's easy to get them all confused.

Oh those politicians./S

I know, right?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.2.34  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.24    one week ago
Which of your statements would like to stick to?

Both.    You apparently think they contradict each other.    Which is very interesting.

Like wood, coal and heating oil, NG has seen its high point and will be slowly replaced for home use by electric because it's cheaper to build homes for electric and not deal with NG utility permits, connection costs, green meanies and the dangers of carbon monoxide, fire and explosion.

Again, this just shows how uniformed and biased your viewpoint on this topic is.     It’s not necessarily “cheaper” to build homes for all electric.     The cost difference is inconsequential in comparison to the total cost of building  home.    You still have to pay for permits.   Electrical.    You still have to pay for connection costs.    Electrical.    Etc, etc.

And long term consumption rates are greater.    The only way this can be offset is by adding a renewable energy source like a solar panel system to the home.    Which significantly raises the cost of the home over gas systems.    Oops .... not cheaper ....

Roughly the same amount of fires have electrical based causes.

So in reality electric isn’t much cheaper or safer than gas and alluding to such is just obtuse.

Some people prefer candle light to LED bulbs, whatever.

A ridiculous analogy but SOSDD.

There will always be clingers to the different old ways.

There will always be partisans and magazine readers who read an article or two and think they are experts on the topic at hand.

C’est la vie .....

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.2.35  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @8.2.31    one week ago

Don’t forget to thank US taxpayers and yourself since you are one as well.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.36  Split Personality  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.34    one week ago
Roughly the same amount of fires have electrical based causes.

Please explain how 50,000 NG related fires is the same as 45,000 fires with

electrical sources when only 48% of all structures use natural gas

while 99.99% of every home and business has electrical service.

That would seem to indicate that electricity is more than twice as safe as using fossil fuels.

There are very roughly, 6 million commercial buildings and 142 million homes in the US

If half have gas with electric and the rest have only electric

then the fire rate is 0.000675% for gas related fires 

and 0.000304% for electrical fires 

The article also suggests that the electrical fires are caused predominantly by

carelessness

The most common types of equipment to malfunction and start a fire are fans, washers and dryers, space heaters, and air-conditioning units. Most malfunctions that result in deaths are related to wiring, cords and plugs.

.

So in reality electric isn’t much cheaper or safer than gas and alluding to such is just obtuse.

Definitely safer as demonstrated.  Cheaper depends on your co-op and my solar panels. My electric bills plus my solar panel payments are 40% of what our previous budget payments were.  

There will always be partisans and magazine readers who read an article or two and think they are experts on the topic at hand.

Thanks for expertly demonstrating that point.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
8.2.37  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @8.2.36    one week ago
Please explain how 50,000 NG related fires is the same as 45,000 fires with

lol .... you’re the one trying to push electric as the much safer option.    Any thinking person can see that isn’t true.    Okay, I guess that 10% difference would agree with you.    One in ten.    WOW .... I feel much safer with my electric range.   Thx  /S

Your analysis is still technically disingenuous and unhelpful to anyone dealing with reality.    I’ve demonstrated electrical is not that much safer or cheaper if at all.

You choosing to be obtuse about that is not helpful except perhaps for stroking a narrative ego.   Believe what you want.  I’ll keep pointing out the facts as I have here.

No free BS for you.

None.

Thanks for expertly demonstrating that point.

I accept your surrender.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.2.38  Split Personality  replied to  Sparty On @8.2.37    one week ago
you’re the one trying to push electric as the much safer option.    Any thinking person can see that isn’t true.    Okay, I guess that 10% difference would agree with you.    One in ten.    WOW .... I feel much safer with my electric range.   Thx  /S

As far as the number of fires - electrical incidents are half of the natural gas incidents.

Simple math.  

All 100% electric homes produce zero carbon monoxide

and other potential gases harmful to human and pet health.

Simple science.

Cheaper depends on where you live and eventually it won't matter when there are no other choices.  It might take a hundred years but its already started. That's already been proven in spite of your recalcitrance.

 I’ve demonstrated electrical is not that much safer or cheaper if at all.

Not at all.

You choosing to be obtuse about that is not helpful except perhaps for stroking a narrative ego.

I am not the one being rude or combative.  

Believe what you want.

I don't need anyone's permission, thanks.

 I’ll keep pointing out the facts as I have here.

Whatever floats your boat.

No free BS for you. None.

Then please stop dishing it out, its getting rather old.

It should be a human safety issue but it seems to be turning into a red state issue.

20 GOP legislatures have already enacted preemptive laws banning the ban of NG appliances

Several others have tried but their Governors vetoed the bills.

Michigan & Pennsylvania have bills in committee since 2019 but now that

Michigan has the Democrat trifecta, there is zero chance of anyone asking

Whitmer to sign any such bill.  A (D) governor in PA precludes them as well.

New York City will be followed by the state banning new natural gas hookups  by 2027.

It may become a states right issue, who knows.

Oil companies know what's coming. Shell Oil bought my solar electric contract

last year, they are hedging their bets along with

BP, Eni, Exxon Chevron and Total.

All are expanding into wind, solar and bio.

The writing is on the wall...

For some reason Americans in particular fight safety issues designed to save

their own health and lives, tooth and nail, sometimes for decades.

Vaccines and seat belts come to mind, no one gives seat belts a second thought

anymore. One day it will be the same for NG.

Have a nice weekend.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
9  Jasper2529    3 weeks ago

If this eventually succeeds, I wonder what natural gas-driven systems they'll try to ban next ... 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.1  TᵢG  replied to  Jasper2529 @9    3 weeks ago

The USA will continue to use natural gas because it is cheap, plentiful, highly integrated in our infrastructure, and not as bad for the climate as petroleum and coal.

Maybe, decades in the future, when renewables like nuclear fusion are commonplace, we will see natural gas mostly fade away.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
9.1.1  cjcold  replied to  TᵢG @9.1    2 weeks ago
decades in the future

At the current rate of anthropogenic global warming, we don't have decades.

This planet is already deep into a sixth extinction event.

I fear that we've already screwed the pooch here.

Even if we stopped all GHG production yesterday, we're still fucked.

Methane stays in the atmosphere for 12 years. CO2 for 300 to a thousand years.

At 68 I won't live to see the worst of it but still feel obliged to warn folk.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
9.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  cjcold @9.1.1    2 weeks ago
At the current rate of anthropogenic global warming, we don't have decades.

I was speaking of natural gas exclusively.    It is better to use natural gas rather than petroleum products or coal.    And, of course, it is better to use clean energy rather than natural gas.

At 68 I won't live to see the worst of it but still feel obliged to warn folk.

They will not listen.   They do not want to be inconvenienced and there are many sources that will tell them that this is all a bunch of hype.   The excuses to be irresponsible are replete in the 'public information' — especially RW talk radio / websites.    And of course the absurd exaggerations / drama by talking heads like Gore do not help matters.

I was talking about this (face to face) with an individual who was denying all facts.   And to illustrate the ignorance and confirmation bias at play, he brought up the ozone layer as an example of a hoax that just disappeared.   He seemed dismayed when I informed him that the healing of the ozone layer was a result of a dramatic reduction in the use of chlorofluorocarbons.   It did not just 'fix itself', we actually acted.    I then pointed out that we do not have a mass lead-poisoning problem today because we caught and acted on lead in gasoline and stopped the lead pollution from exhaust fumes.    

We need to act to fix problems.    They do not go away because we do not 'believe they are real' and/or ignoring the problem.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
10  charger 383    3 weeks ago

If this is their goal  "Products that can't be made safe can be banned." we won't have many products left.

Ban gas stoves but electric stoves can be dangerous too 

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
10.1  Jasper2529  replied to  charger 383 @10    2 weeks ago
Ban gas stoves but electric stoves can be dangerous too 

True. Interesting article below, but this caught my eye ...

Pros and Cons of Electric Stoves

Pros of Electric Stoves: 

  • Your kitchen can stay cooler compared to using a gas stove. 
  • Glass cooktops provide easier cleaning. 
  • The flatter surface provides more stability for pots and pans. 

Cons of Electric Stoves:

  • They cook food slower. 
  • They use about three times more energy than gas.  
  • No power, no stove.

What Can Cause an Explosion?

 
 
 
zuksam
Junior Silent
10.2  zuksam  replied to  charger 383 @10    2 weeks ago
Ban gas stoves but electric stoves can be dangerous too

Even the food can be dangerous! We're all just going to have to get Meals on Wheels so everything is approved by a nutritionist and prepared by a licensed professional.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
11  Tacos!    3 weeks ago

See, this is bullshit. They have been after us for decades to use natural gas because it's better for the environment. Now, suddenly, it's this big crisis?

No. Back up off of my kitchen. I cook with flame.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
11.1  TᵢG  replied to  Tacos! @11    3 weeks ago

Natural gas is indeed better for the environment than petro products and coal.

And it is in abundance in the USA.

And it is heavily integrated into our infrastructure.

The wise approach is to seek to get off of the dirtier fossil fuels (petroleum and coal) as the priority.   A decent interim step is to use natural gas to help us reduce petroleum and coal usage.   Over time we can eventually (several decades down the road) get off of natural gas when renewables are more prevalent (especially nuclear fusion based energy).

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
11.2  Tessylo  replied to  Tacos! @11    2 weeks ago

Oh please, 'back up off my kitchen.  I cook with flame.'

jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

It's the end of the world as we know it

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
11.3  Split Personality  replied to  Tacos! @11    2 weeks ago

It's not just stoves.  It's the 142 million pilot flames in the hot water heaters and furnaces burning 24/7/365

creating carbon dioxide.  It's accumulative and contributes to the hot house effect.

In our time we have all been subject to self inflicted damage as a species from radio isotopes from nuclear tests, Hiroshima and Nagisaki, and untold hundreds of man made, permanent poisons like PCBs, DDT and CFGs all known carcinogens.

It's no different than retiring a gas lawn mower or chain saw for an electric rechargeable. 

Convection ranges are becoming the standard, and that internal fan requires electricity.  No escaping that fact. May as well be using a more efficient all electric appliance...

 
 
 
Snuffy
PhD Guide
11.3.1  Snuffy  replied to  Split Personality @11.3    2 weeks ago
Convection ranges are becoming the standard, and that internal fan requires electricity.  No escaping that fact. May as well be using a more efficient all electric appliance...

All home gas ranges that I've seen also have the 110v electric hookup also for such things as a clock, and I don't know for sure but is the igniter also connected into that electrical source?  New electric ranges are more efficient than old electric ranges, but a gas range still tests out as more energy effective than electric ranges

The clear winner in the energy efficiency battle between gas and electric is gas. It takes about three times as much energy to produce and deliver electricity to your stove. According to the California Energy Commission, a gas stove will cost you less than half as much to operate (provided that you have an electronic ignition--not a  pilot light ).

And I remember hearing yesterday that the restaurant association is against this due to costs but I didn't get any details on that.  It was a quick news story while I was driving and somehow paying attention to the road traffic just seemed more important that carefully listening to the radio.  :)

While the carbon dioxide released from a gas range or furnace is something to take into account,  how does it really differ from the CO2 generated by electric generating plants?  There are just so many moving parts to this equation that just removing gas ranges, hot water heaters & furnaces seems only a portion of the issue.  Add in the problems some states are already having with power grids and where does the electricity come from?  I believe that we are a very long way from solving this issue and it won't be fixed in our lifetimes.  

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
11.3.2  Jasper2529  replied to  Snuffy @11.3.1    2 weeks ago
And I remember hearing yesterday that the restaurant association is against this due to costs but I didn't get any details on that.

It certainly, and rightfully, is. The restaurant/hospitality industry took a colossal financial hit during Covid, and it's still suffering. Have you ever seen an electric stove/oven in a restaurant's kitchen? I haven't. They all use natural gas (except for those which have also have electric ignition starters). 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
11.3.3  Texan1211  replied to  Jasper2529 @11.3.2    2 weeks ago

every restaurant i have worked in except one had natural gas.

the exception had propane because natural gas wasn't available.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
11.3.4  Jasper2529  replied to  Texan1211 @11.3.3    2 weeks ago
the exception had propane because natural gas wasn't available.

I fully understand. Whenever I've visited family and friends in more rural areas across the country, many don't have natural gas and use propane. They even use oil ... gasp! ... for heating!

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
11.3.5  Split Personality  replied to  Snuffy @11.3.1    2 weeks ago
Add in the problems some states are already having with power grids and where does the electricity come from?

The grids are always an issue.  While wind provided a third of our energy needs in Texas the grid is still an issue, especially in West Texas where there isn't enough connection to DFW and further east to Houston resulting in many wind farms being turned off at night.

Solar is growing steadily but in many cases the grid is still a necessity.

Is there one all encompassing solution to get to net zero?  Not likely, as long as NG remains cheap and abundant it will be the preferred fuel for electric generation as coal is phased out, improving the air quality by 50% but still contributing to some sort of pollution.

Solar works but the making and recycling of current solar panels is also an issue for the ecology.

There's basically a price for everything.

Finding that minimum is the challenge.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.3.6  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @11.3.5    2 weeks ago

None of this really matters much with countries like China and India more than replacing CO2 emission reductions of the rest of the world.   And their emissions are accelerating quickly while ours have been going down for years.

Meanwhile, green weenie teeth in places like the USA continue to grind and gnash uncontrollably.

Gas bad .... electric good ...... meow!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
11.3.7  Texan1211  replied to  Jasper2529 @11.3.4    2 weeks ago

restaurants don't like propane because it is expensive and burns dirty. turns every pot black on bottom.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
11.3.8  Split Personality  replied to  Sparty On @11.3.6    2 weeks ago

China emits more greenhouse gas than the entire developed world combined, a new report has claimed.

The research by Rhodium Group says China emitted 27% of the world's greenhouse gases in 2019.

The US was the second-largest emitter at 11% while India was third with 6.6% of emissions, the think tank said.

Scientists warn that without an agreement between the US and China it will be hard to avert dangerous climate change.

China's emissions more than tripled over the previous three decades, the report from the US-based Rhodium Group added.

Report: China emissions exceed all developed nations combined - BBC News

 China is killing its own very slowly and affecting it's military's health as well.

1.24 million people in China die every year from air quality issues and the PRC is the leading mercury polluter. 

That being said, do you stop taking care of your home because your neighbor isn't

taking care of their property?

Or do you do what is right and necessary and try to influence the neighborhood?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
11.3.9  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @11.3.8    2 weeks ago

Well of course we take of our own stuff and do our best to be good neighbors as well.  

When our dogs shit in our neighbors lawn we clean it up.    If their dogs shit on our lawns we politely ask our neighbors to clean it up.    If they ignore that polite request we give them their dog shit back.

Pretty simple ......

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Participates
11.3.10  Freewill  replied to  Split Personality @11.3    2 weeks ago
It's not just stoves.  It's the 142 million pilot flames in the hot water heaters and furnaces burning 24/7/365 creating carbon dioxide.  It's accumulative and contributes to the hot house effect.

Most modern gas appliances like furnaces, water heaters and stoves have electronic ignition systems these days, since at least 2010 or even before I believe.  You can't even buy pilot light type appliances anymore at least here in CA.  My house was built in 2001 and the furnaces and water heater were all electronic ignition (or hot surface igniters), so I think the trend started even earlier in California.

Actually looks like pilot lights have been banned in California since 1978 .  Looks like similar bans across the country around the same time and into the 1980's.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
11.3.11  Split Personality  replied to  Freewill @11.3.10    2 weeks ago

Thanks that brings back a memory from the late 80's

Many moons ago I lived in California on Hamilton AFB

My son said he liked this new house because when the heat came on at night there was a neat whoosh and blue lights???

The heater & water heater were installed in a closet by the front door (to withstand a 9.0 earthquake.):)

I darkened the house the best I could and tripped the thermostat.

Blue flames raced about 6 feet across the floor towards the door & steps.

Something had cracked and the whole unit had to be replaced, but they were slated to

be replaced anyway because they were all 40 years old and the new models were

electronic ignition.

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Participates
11.3.12  Freewill  replied to  Split Personality @11.3.11    2 weeks ago

Yikes!  Glad you survived that to tell the story!  I would think that there are likely very few gas pilot light type appliances still in service across the country at this point.  At least I would hope so.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
11.4  cjcold  replied to  Tacos! @11    2 weeks ago
They have been after us for decades

I assume that "they" are scientists and "us" are ignorant rednecks.

          I cook with flame.

Have been a grill-master for many years. Tend to smoke with apple wood at Arrowhead. 

Sometimes look to the smoke-filled sky above the stadium and feel a twinge of guilt.

Should an environmental scientist be involved in such a spectacle?

But then somebody hands me a perfectly smoked piece of meat and the guilt recedes.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
11.5  Thrawn 31  replied to  Tacos! @11    2 weeks ago

Eh, you know the gas is emitting some byproduct when you burn it, it doesn't just turn into nothing. Maybe blasting into our houses isn't the best idea. We will probably switch to electric, but for now I think i'll hit the vent fan when I cook. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
11.5.1  Tacos!  replied to  Thrawn 31 @11.5    2 weeks ago

From what I read, properly burned natural gas basically produces carbon dioxide and water vapor. It can release other chemicals, but in such trace amounts that you’d never notice. Hence, the wide popularity of gas stoves over the last century or so. The food you cook (or at least the food I cook) - and the frying pan itself -  probably throws more toxic chemicals into the air than the gas you’re burning.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
12  Mark in Wyoming     2 weeks ago

512

 
 
 
Snuffy
PhD Guide
12.1  Snuffy  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @12    2 weeks ago

jrSmiley_79_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
12.2  Tacos!  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @12    2 weeks ago

How many burners do you need?!!

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
12.2.1  cjcold  replied to  Tacos! @12.2    2 weeks ago
I cook with flame.

Outdoors I have a gas/wood grilling unit with two gas burners beside the main grill.

Outdoors I have a Brinkman Bullet and a 55 gallon smoke fed barrel for smoking.

Inside I now use 2 induction stove top electric burners for just about everything. 

Much more even heat distribution and much better/faster temperature control.

I love traditional ways but still embrace the future.

 
 
 
Mark in Wyoming
Professor Silent
12.2.2  Mark in Wyoming   replied to  Tacos! @12.2    2 weeks ago

512

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
12.2.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @12.2.2    2 weeks ago

That looks fucking amazing. 

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Participates
12.2.4  Freewill  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @12.2.2    2 weeks ago

The meat looks great!  As does the peanut brittle in the foreground...

 
 
 
Snuffy
PhD Guide
12.2.5  Snuffy  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @12.2.2    2 weeks ago

My eldest got married a few years back, I tried to talk her into this for a wedding cake...   Too damn bad she didn't go for it.

256

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
13  Jeremy Retired in NC    2 weeks ago

Pfizer Reportedly Working On Vaccine To Counteract Gas Stove Emissions

Pfizer scientists are hard at work on a new vaccine that will eliminate the deadly effects of gas stove emissions. If successful, the shot will allow for the use of a gas stove in a well-ventilated environment without masks. "If you take these shots you will no longer be at risk of breathing in fumes from an easily preventable gas leak. You won't get sick and you won't have to quarantine away from the stove," said Pfizer's Albert Bourla in a statement. "I know we said some of the same things with the COVID shots, but this time we mean it. Really."

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
14  charger 383    2 weeks ago

 Coal burning stove. no natural gas

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
14.1  Split Personality  replied to  charger 383 @14    2 weeks ago

Loved helping my great grandmother with coal and kindling for the furnace, can't recall any ill effects except the dirt and soot.

There are a number of negative health effects of coal that occur through its mining, preparation, combustion, waste storage, and transport. Negative health effects from coal use within the U.S. include: [1]

There's a reason the US transitioned away from coal to oil, gas and now electric.

Oil use is still falling as both gas and electric are cheaper and more convenient without a messy, potentiall leaking, smelly oil tank. od the 5 million homes that still have oil tanks, 85% are in the Northeast.

Out of 142 million households in 2019 only 130,000 still use coal.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
14.2  cjcold  replied to  charger 383 @14    2 weeks ago

Haven't had to use my wood/coal burner this year. It's been mild in OZ for the most part.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
15  Sparty On    2 weeks ago

Joe must have finally watched Back to the Future and is wondering why everyone isn’t using a Mr Fusion for all their home energy needs.

[deleted   Funny!]

[Uncle Joe .... deleted .....]

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
16  Jasper2529    2 weeks ago

Poor little AOC -- always touting "the science" but never showing evidence ...

The Congresswoman also explained the "science" behind her public attacks on gas stoves. 

"There is very   concerning science [all unrelated to gas stoves] about some of the emissions from gas stoves," she said, "especially around the cognitive development of young children, asthma, cancer, et cetera." 

It is a claim that has dominated the mainstream media but appears to have little actual evidence backing it up. A Consumer Product Safety Commission spokesperson told Fox News Digital that there "is a significant body of work" on the supposed danger of gas stoves,  but refused to cite any sources

She has been widely criticized by scientists, doctors, actors and her fellow members of Congress on Twitter for suggesting that gas stove use is linked to brain damage, especially after a photo of her in front of a personal gas stove went viral online. 

Texas Congressman Ronny Jackson and a number of other users shared the photo, noting the irony of Ocasio-Cortez’s attacks on gas stove use. 

".@aoc says gas stoves cause ‘reduced cognitive performance’ - yet she uses a gas stove? Is this a self diagnosis? AOC, as a medical doctor, I can tell you this: what’s wrong with your head IS NOT caused by stoves. Something WAY BIGGER is causing your decreased cognitive function!"

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
17  charger 383    2 weeks ago

What will they try to take away from us next?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
17.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  charger 383 @17    2 weeks ago

They'll give you a choice, your spouse or your car.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
17.2  cjcold  replied to  charger 383 @17    2 weeks ago

I will come over, personally, and take possession of your car. 

It's a dirty job but it has to be done!

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
17.2.1  charger 383  replied to  cjcold @17.2    2 weeks ago

Don't blame you for trying

I am single so I'll keep the Charger  and get it painted 

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
18  cjcold    2 weeks ago

Haven't had to use my wood/coal burner much this year. It's been mild in OZ for the most part.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
18.1  charger 383  replied to  cjcold @18    2 weeks ago

Cold and windy tonight so coal and wood are burning in the stove to keep oil furnace from running too much

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
18.1.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  charger 383 @18.1    2 weeks ago

Middle of a white out here, glad our infrastructure is made for this shit. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
19  Thrawn 31    2 weeks ago

Read a bit about it and yeah... one of those things I never thought of but does make sense. I mean the water heater, furnace, dryer all are required by law to have outdoor venting, and they all burn natural or are electric. Shit, even my oven has an outdoor vent now that I look at it. Why not gas stoves? Nothing burns "clean", there are always byproducts, so we will probably just switch to electric, fuck it. 

 
 
 
freepress
Freshman Silent
20  freepress    2 weeks ago

That isn't the actual policy, the report came out and no bills have moved to do any such thing. Right now even with a slim majority favoring Republicans, that kind of legislation will never get the votes. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
20.1  Split Personality  replied to  freepress @20    2 weeks ago

Can't have any fun if some of us aren't allowed to exaggerate and overreact now, can we?

jrSmiley_82_smiley_image.gif   

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
21  charger 383    one week ago

I wrote Senator Kaine about this, his response was about how he had worked to protect us from unsafe beach umbrellas.

 
 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
22  Ender    one week ago

Strange thoughts by Ender...

If we are starting to rely more on gas as an energy source, a source for electricity, wouldn't having people use it for electricity and other uses like all the appliances in the house, deplete the supply quicker...

Stop the home use and keep the supply for other demands...

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
22.1  Sparty On  replied to  Ender @22    one week ago

By all means, for numerous reasons, we need to be working towards alternative energy sources.    Fossil fuel supplies are not endless.

My only point has been it isn’t as fast, simple or as cheap as some would like us to believe.    If electrical demand goes up to power new electrical appliances, cars, etc, the grid will need to be expanded.    Black and brown outs have become more prevalent today without adding those new loads.    Adding more load to the grid without adding more capacity will just make those blackouts more prevalent. 

New power plants, upgraded transmission lines etc don’t happen overnight.   And it won’t be cheaper unless Nuclear becomes more acceptable and/or other renewables can fill the gaps more readily.    

Upgrading the power grid will be very expensive and time consuming.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
22.1.1  Ender  replied to  Sparty On @22.1    one week ago

To be honest, I have had both. Electric and gas stoves.

My old house that I loved, and I do mean old, the original part of the house was built in 1917, don't have the house anymore....

Anyway...My old house I loved had this big, huge electric stove oven from like the 1950's. If I had replaced it with a regular sized stove/oven it would have left a big gap. I cooked on that thing for a decade, an old electric 1950's oven...

There have been several apartments over my days, they were electric.

I have gas where I am now.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
22.1.2  Sparty On  replied to  Ender @22.1.1    one week ago
To be honest, I have had both. Electric and gas stoves.

Many of us have.    Including myself.    

Not many have had a gas power refrigerator I bet though.    I have.    Propane.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
22.1.3  Ender  replied to  Sparty On @22.1.2    one week ago

I can come close. My BIL has one in his camper.  Haha

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
22.1.4  Split Personality  replied to  Sparty On @22.1    one week ago

Suddenly you are Mr. Reasonable?

I wonder why?

How many fucking years did it take to build out infrastructure for gasoline powered autos?

136 years?

Now the roads will be kept and improved for ELECTRIC vehicles which will replace gas powered  vehicles  eventually.

The electricity will come from wind, solar and cold fusion until micro cold fusion starts to replace

large reactors and somewhere in the future some asswhole comes up with a totally new power

source which allows flying cars and the end of the interstate highway system.

Any thoughts on that dumbass?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
22.1.5  Ender  replied to  Split Personality @22.1.4    one week ago
I like living easy without family ties ('cause it's easy)
'Til the whip or will of freedom zapped me, right between the eyes
 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
22.1.6  Ender  replied to  Ender @22.1.5    one week ago

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
22.1.7  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @22.1.4    one week ago
Suddenly you are Mr. Reasonable?

Was I talking to you?    Nope, not in this one.    That said, your biased interpretations of my postings are the real unreasonable thing here but SOSDD considering.

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
22.1.8  Sparty On  replied to  Ender @22.1.3    one week ago

Deer camp, all power by generator, propane reefer a real luxury there

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
22.1.9  Split Personality  replied to  Sparty On @22.1.7    one week ago
Was I talking to you?    Nope, not in this one

News Flash. This is social media.  It's even the same article.

Understand this.

From your link.

Gas Fires caused $2.1Billion in damages (more total losses) in 74 million buildings.

Electrical fires only caused $1.4 Billion in damages in 148 million buildings.

Every All Electric Home has .0003% chance of a fire, 0% chance of explosion or carbon monoxide from NG and none of the health risks.

Every home heated with NG has twice the risk of a fire (.0006%)

along with the health and safety risks in addition to the electrical risks (000979%).

So, you have nothing but the same worn out insults based on your own biases.

Understood

Too bad.    If you weren’t so biased you could really learn something here.

The irony is obviously lost on you.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
22.1.11  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @22.1.9    one week ago

Lol .... all my posts here and the supporting link I included stand on their own.  [Deleted]

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
22.1.13  Sparty On  replied to  Split Personality @22.1.9    6 days ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
George
Freshman Guide
22.1.14  George  replied to  Sparty On @22.1.13    6 days ago

And this piece of truth will be hidden with a META tag. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
22.1.15  Sparty On  replied to  George @22.1.14    6 days ago

Any thinking person who has been here more than a minute can see it even with the tags.

 
 

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