Nara's Big Lie

  

Category:  Op/Ed

By:  vic-eldred  •  2 weeks ago  •  110 comments

Nara's Big Lie
“What are they going to do with the 33 million pages of documents, many of which are classified, that President Obama took to Chicago,” Mr. Trump asked in a statement.


Some may recall Donald Trump's complaint days after Mar-a-Lago was brazenly raided by the FBI. For those who don't recall: Trump complained that Barack Obama of keeping “many” classified documents after Obama left the White House in 2017. He made that complaint last August.

The National Achives immediately responded:

"The National Archives and Records Administration pushed back on former President   Donald Trump’s assertions   that his predecessor, Barack Obama, had taken   classified documents   from the White House as he faces intense scrutiny over records he possessed after federal officials raided his Florida home.

After the FBI reportedly   seized 11 sets of classified documents   from Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence in a raid on Monday, Trump decried the search as being politically motivated and insisted Obama had taken “30 million pages of documents” when he left office in 2017, a claim that NARA responded to on Friday, noting it maintains “exclusive legal and physical custody” of Obama’s records.

“NARA moved approximately 30 million pages of unclassified records to a NARA facility in the Chicago area, where they are maintained exclusively by NARA,” the agency said   in a statement  . “Additionally, NARA maintains the classified Obama Presidential records in a NARA facility in the Washington, DC, area. As required by the [Presidential Records Act], former President Obama has no control over where and how NARA stores the Presidential records of his Administration.”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/national-archives-rejects-trump-claims-obama-took-classified-records

That was in August of 2020, long before anyone would know that Joe Biden had in his possession classified documents from  the Obama administration.

That would mean that NARA lied to us.

Does anyone doubt the width & breath of the Deep Blue State?


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Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  author  Vic Eldred    2 weeks ago


Does anyone doubt that other presidents or vice presidents or Secretaries of State have taken documents?


Fortunately, NARA comes under the purview of the House Oversight Committee and we may at least put some ideologues in an uncomfortable position in front of the American people.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2  author  Vic Eldred    2 weeks ago

"This weekend, President  Biden  returned to his home in Delaware. While some view the home as a veritable crime scene, the White House insists it is merely an area of liberating “inadvertence.” You will find no chalked outline of boxes of classified documents or yellow police tape in Wilmington. You will also not find another expected element: a viable criminal defense.

After classified documents were found in various locations, the Justice Department launched an investigation that could take months. However, Biden’s private counsel, Richard Sauber, surprisingly announced that they already know what happened and it was a case of “inadvertent mishandling.”

What is striking about the “inadvertence” defense is what is not being claimed. A better defense is that the president had no role in or knowledge of the removal of the documents. It is always possible that documents are packed without the knowledge of a departing president or vice president. Yet, documents removed at the end of a term are generally archived as requested and packed by staff. There should be a chain of custody.

While premature and incomplete, ‘inadvertence’ is still a better defense than the one  offered  by Rep.  Hank Johnson  (D-Ga.) and  others  who suggested the classified documents may have been “planted.”

The president’s counsel thankfully did not opt for that conspiracy theory. Indeed, they have admitted the material was classified and held in unsecured locations. It is a curious defense, however, since it is not an actual defense for this crime. Rather, it is more of a mitigating factor to influence charging or sentencing. In this case, Biden must be hoping that prosecutors will not bring a charge absent some showing of evil intent.

The “inadvertent mishandling” is as viable a criminal defense as Bill Clinton’s claim that he smoked marijuana but “didn’t inhale.” It is designed to suggest that, while the act may violate the law, the conduct is excusable. For Biden, the argument appears to be, “Yes, I removed the documents, but I didn’t use them.”

The White House mantra has locked Biden into a non-defense defense. Since federal law bars gross mishandling of classified material, it is not enough to say you lacked evil intent."

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @2    2 weeks ago
Since federal law bars gross mishandling of classified material, it is not enough to say you lacked evil intent."

That is correct.   Biden violated the PRA and thus he should be held accountable.   The buck stops with him regarding his V.P. documents.

Biden's argument, by the way, has been that he did not know those boxes contained classified records.  That is an argument regarding intent.   He has not made excuses to deny his violation of the PRA but rather accepted the reality and had his staff look for other violations.

Intent to harm the USA is an important factor to determine because the Espionage act heavily considers intent.   If evidence suggested that Biden intentionally held those documents for the purpose of actions that would harm the USA, he could more likely face criminal charges under the Espionage act.    The PRA violation, in contrast, is not criminal.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
2.1.1  Greg Jones  replied to  TᵢG @2.1    2 weeks ago

So Trump's case did not involve either evil intent or intentionality?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  Greg Jones @2.1.1    2 weeks ago

That is yet to be determined.   Intent is a legal determination.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @2.1    2 weeks ago
Intent to harm the USA is an important factor to determine because the Espionage act heavily considers intent. 

The Espionage Act isn't involved in either case. The only reason it was used is to launch a criminal investigation. Both cases involve something far less.


The PRA violation, in contrast, is not criminal.

Correct.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.4  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.3    2 weeks ago

The espionage act could be involved in either case.    It could be invoked for Biden if the legal determination of gross negligence is reached.   That, at this stage, is extremely unlikely.

For Trump, it is not so simple.   The espionage act has a number of conditions wherein intent / willfulness is a major factor.   If a case can be made that Trump acted willfully (with intent) to compromise national security then he could be indicted on criminal charges.

That was a real possibility for Trump until Biden stepped in it.   Now I see no way the DoJ is going to do anything real with either offender (Trump or Biden).   Probably an admonishment at best.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.5  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.4    2 weeks ago
The espionage act could be involved in either case.

There is only one reason for that: To criminally prosecute somebody and we all know who that was going to be.

For Trump, it is not so simple.   The espionage act has a number of conditions wherein intent / willfulness is a major factor.   If a case can be made that Trump acted willfully (with intent) to compromise national security then he could be indicted on criminal charges.

Trump immediately turned over 15 boxes and argued that he had a right to the rest. The FBI was invited in to look at them. The FBI looked and then requested that the room be padlocked and it was. Between that day and the raid (the common criminal raid) there had been zero discussions. The FBI broke the padlock they requested be installed and searched the entire premesis. We never learned much about the warrant or the basis for it and it appears to be a "general" warrant, which raises questions again about FBI malfeasance.


That was a real possibility for Trump until Biden stepped in it.   Now I see no way the DoJ is going to do anything real with either offender (Trump or Biden).   Probably an admonishment at best.

I'm sure you're right, becuse no matter what is involved in either case, it's never going to look good for Garland.  We have covered these points endlessly. How about my point about NARA?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.6  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.5    2 weeks ago
There is only one reason for that: To criminally prosecute somebody and we all know who that was going to be.

Yes, it would be a criminal prosecution.   

Trump immediately turned over 15 boxes and argued that he had a right to the rest. 

And that is the essence of his problem with intent.

How about my point about NARA?

State clearly what I am to take as 'your point' about NARA.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.7  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.6    2 weeks ago
Yes, it would be a criminal prosecution.   

And that would have been more malfeasance.


And that is the essence of his problem with intent.

We are not going there.


State clearly what I am to take as 'your point' about NARA.

Obviously, that they blatantly lied...and they did it to contradict Trump.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
2.1.8  Ender  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.7    2 weeks ago

Glad to know you know all the working details at the agency.

All that insider information coming up.....

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.9  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Ender @2.1.8    2 weeks ago

So you aren't reading the comments again?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
2.1.10  Ender  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.9    2 weeks ago

I am still waiting on what they supposedly lied about...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.11  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Ender @2.1.10    2 weeks ago

It's right in the article. It's as bold as brass.

A 1 minute read.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
2.1.12  Ender  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.11    2 weeks ago

I read that and the only place I see a lie is you saying there is.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.13  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.7    2 weeks ago
Obviously, that they blatantly lied...and they did it to contradict Trump.

I already commented on that.   

Trump claimed that Obama himself was holding 30 million pages of classified documents and NARA stated that they were holding the corpus of Obama documents claimed by Trump.

How is that a blatant lie by NARA?

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
2.1.14  bugsy  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.7    2 weeks ago

Don't fall for it, Vic. It's just going to become a circle jerk of one not accepting dissenting views and insults toward the other poster. As long as you let it, it will never stop.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.15  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @2.1.13    2 weeks ago
and NARA stated that they were holding the corpus of Obama documents claimed by Trump.

NARA said they had all of them. Then we find out that Biden held an unknown amount for about 6 years.

So they lied and you are blind to it.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.16  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  bugsy @2.1.14    2 weeks ago

I know. They have to play their games, but the truth is undeniable.

NARA has been politicized.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
2.1.17  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.15    2 weeks ago

Oh wow, out of 30 million pages, the NARA apparently could not account for approximately 0.001666666 percent of the total corpus.   

So they said they had the 30 million pages that Trump claimed, but in reality they had only about 99.83333333% of them.

You call that a blatant lie and get all bent out of shape over it.    Trump should make your head explode.

Any area of the government that does 99.8333333% of what they are supposed to do is doing an amazing job in my estimation.   I do not know what you think goes on in reality, but absolute perfection and extremely precise language at every turn is not of our world.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
2.1.18  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.15    2 weeks ago
“What are they going to do with the 33 million pages of documents, many of which are classified, that President Obama took to Chicago,” Mr. Trump asked in a statement.
A lie, fostered by Sean Hannity and repeated by DJTrump repeatedly.
Why include it with this short opinion piece?
Why repeat any of Trumps lies about classified docs and whataboutisms?
Why are you shocked when a federal agency is proven wrong.
As for that pre raid visit 2 months prior, why did Trump or his lawyers lie when
asked about the presence of more docs?
Were they lying also?
Did the FBI have a search warrant at that time?
No they did what they could and left.
I will ask you again, how did classified docs get into Trumps personal safe?
Do you have any knowledge of what's in Bidens' safe?
I absolutely know what's in mine.
 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3  author  Vic Eldred    2 weeks ago

"So *WHY* did lawyers start searching Biden properties for some of the many classified documents he's got scattered around various rooms and buildings?

What prompted the initial and subsequent searches?"


th?id=OIP.0HbjktDjbnDpmQ_J0JDc1AHaGt&pid=Api&rs=1&c=1&qlt=95&w=127&h=115

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @3    2 weeks ago
What prompted the initial and subsequent searches?"

Is it not reported that the original discovery by Biden's attorney was accidental?   

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
3.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  TᵢG @3.1    2 weeks ago

A convenient accident. 

Willing to bet Brandon knew about the classified documents; but forgot about them; and had an "oh shit" moment when he came across a few. 

Still want to know why the DOJ, FBI, and NARA are trusting Brandon's hand picked sanitation team to search out and find all of the documents? FBI raids would be far more thorough and effective. They would search places the sanitation team would never dream of. 

Guess Jill's clothes doesn't do it for the Hoover types in the FBI.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.2  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @3.1.1    2 weeks ago
A convenient accident. 

So you reject the claim that these documents were discovered by accident?    Why?

Willing to bet Brandon knew about the classified documents; but forgot about them; and had an "oh shit" moment when he came across a few. 

Well that, like many other speculations, is possible.    I prefer to follow the evidence and (temporarily) fill in gaps (only when necessary) with what is most likely (basic commonsense).

Still want to know why the DOJ, FBI, and NARA are trusting Brandon's hand picked sanitation team to search out and find all of the documents? FBI raids would be far more thorough and effective. They would search places the sanitation team would never dream of. 

A raid would be likely if Biden had been stalling for months.    It makes no sense, right, to engage in a "raid" when Biden is fully cooperating.    NARA, et. al. gave Trump an extraordinary amount of leeway ... as evidenced by the many months of stalling that ensued; why would they do less for a sitting PotUS?   Further, do we know for a fact that no other agency is working with Biden on this?   I think getting the facts should precede making a claim.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
3.1.3  Jasper2529  replied to  Ronin2 @3.1.1    2 weeks ago
Guess Jill's clothes doesn't do it for the Hoover types in the FBI.

Or Hunter's suite.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
3.1.4  Greg Jones  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.2    2 weeks ago

The agencies knew of Trump's records, verified that they were secured, that there was no threat to national security, and that he was negotiating with authorities about their return.

 So why a very public daylight raid with armed FBI?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.5  TᵢG  replied to  Greg Jones @3.1.4    2 weeks ago

Asked and answered.   Trump was not cooperating.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
3.1.6  Thrawn 31  replied to  Ronin2 @3.1.1    2 weeks ago
A convenient accident. 

I guess. I mean, I am sure you have never put anything somewhere, completely forgotten about it, and then come across it later. 

Willing to bet Brandon knew about the classified documents; but forgot about them; and had an "oh shit" moment when he came across a few. 

And turned them in like he was supposed to. 

Still want to know why the DOJ, FBI, and NARA are trusting Brandon's hand picked sanitation team to search out and find all of the documents?

Because they do not have a reason not to? 

FBI raids would be far more thorough and effective. They would search places the sanitation team would never dream of. 

Obviously you have no idea how a search warrant is obtained or executed. 

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
3.1.7  bugsy  replied to  Thrawn 31 @3.1.6    2 weeks ago
I mean, I am sure you have never put anything somewhere, completely forgotten about it, and then come across it later. 

If Brandon did not classify those documents, then he had no business having them anywhere outside of a secure location. A closet in a Chinese funded "think tank", his garage and his library are not secure locations.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.1.8  TᵢG  replied to  bugsy @3.1.7    2 weeks ago

Even if Biden had originally classified the documents, they still are a violation of the PRA.    He would have had to declassify the documents (if he had classified them in the first place) before they could be held offsite.   And even then, the PRA generally requires that ALL documents dealing with the business of the office be properly handled within the confines of a government secure facility.   Classified or not.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
3.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  Vic Eldred @3    2 weeks ago

as turley wrote:

Biden did not use security officers or the FBI to conduct further searches. The president has a host of people who regularly handle classified material. So why use the lawyers? The answer appears the same as in the case of Hillary Clinton’s emails: control.
 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
3.2.1  Jasper2529  replied to  Sean Treacy @3.2    2 weeks ago
So why use the lawyers?

And, there's no evidence proving that Biden's private lawyers had proper security clearances to touch those boxes/folders, let alone read them.

 
 
 
George
Freshman Guide
3.2.2  George  replied to  Jasper2529 @3.2.1    2 weeks ago

Attorney client privilege comes into play, the lawyers can’t be compelled to testify against Biden. So if they know that Biden sold the information to third parties, Biden is safe from them testifying.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
3.2.3  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Jasper2529 @3.2.1    2 weeks ago

All they have to see is the signifiers of classified documents so I am sure they are just scanning.............**wink**/s

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4  TᵢG    2 weeks ago

So your theory is that because NARA was not aware of Biden's documents that they lied (knowingly made a false statement) when they reported on the Obama administration documents they actually do have in their facility and their belief that they have ALL the documents?   They were, in their statement, correctly countering Trump's false claim of 30 million pages of documents;  Obama did not have 30 million pages of documents in his possession.

Just amazing watching people amplify any mistake or act of incompetence into some grand conspiracy.    In this case, NARA has somewhere around 30 million pages but not every last page of classified material was secured.    So if Biden had, say, 500 pages in his 20 documents, that would be 0.001666666 percent of the total corpus.   

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4.1  Ronin2  replied to  TᵢG @4    2 weeks ago

Spin, spin, spin. NARA treats Democrats different than Republicans when it comes to conformity. 

Time for them to atone.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.1  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1    2 weeks ago

What, specifically, is the spin you claim?

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4.1.2  Ronin2  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.1    2 weeks ago

You are defending NARA.

Funny they had no problem finding out Trump had documents. But when it comes to Brandon the Human Fuck Up Machine, 6 years of inactivity w/o a care in the world.

Seems that documents aren't quite as important to NARA when the holder has a D behind their name.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.3  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1.2    2 weeks ago

How am I defending NARA — by stating the facts?    That is what you call defense?

Defending NARA would involve putting up some bullshit that does not correlate with the facts.    Stating the facts is countering non-facts.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
4.1.4  Thrawn 31  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1.2    2 weeks ago
You are defending NARA.

Pretty sure TiG is just pointing out that when dealing with a large number of anything, overlooking or being unaware of a small error is not indicative of a grand conspiracy or some nefarious intent. 99.999% of the time it is simply overlooking something. 

Funny they had no problem finding out Trump had documents.

I do not know how they knew he had them, but they did and he refused to return them, so the FBI went and got them. In this case when they were discovered they were turned over to NARA. Biden's team did what they were supposed to. 

But when it comes to Brandon the Human Fuck Up Machine

And still better than your boy lol.

Seems that documents aren't quite as important to NARA when the holder has a D behind their name.

Or when you do things the way you are supposed too law enforcement doesn't have to come in with the heavy hand. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.5  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.1.4    2 weeks ago
Biden's team did what they were supposed to.

After 6 years!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.6  TᵢG  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.1.4    2 weeks ago
Pretty sure TiG is just pointing out that when dealing with a large number of anything, overlooking or being unaware of a small error is not indicative of a grand conspiracy or some nefarious intent. 99.999% of the time it is simply overlooking something

Amazing that you have to explain that to someone.   

Even more amazing is the making of a mountain range out of an ant hill.    The exaggeration at play nowadays is beyond absurd.    How can those engaging in such hyperbole think that any rational mind would be persuaded by that nonsense?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.7  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.5    2 weeks ago

Vic, do you even allow the possibility that Biden and his team actually did not know classified pages were in those storage boxes?

If they did not know, then 6 years or 60 years is irrelevant.

Maybe Biden is lying.   I do not know.   But if he is not lying, his story is perfectly logical.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
4.1.8  Thrawn 31  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.5    2 weeks ago

They found them 6 years later and did what they were supposed to do, what's your point?

I am positive if I go through any of the closets in my house I will find shit I haven't seen for the last 5 years and haven't given a single thought to in that time. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.9  TᵢG  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.1.8    2 weeks ago

Yeah, me too.   I have several boxes stored in a storage bin above our garden shed.    My old college paraphernalia and early work in my career is in there somewhere.   I have not looked for any of that stuff for decades.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
4.1.10  Thrawn 31  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.6    2 weeks ago

This would be like if at my previous job some of the departments and building managers accused me of theft because I was entering (and yes it was only me doing this for the entire campus)into our new management system, all the square footage data for every room in every building on campus for the purposes of billing, and while doing so I made a few errors.

I know for a fact I did because after I was done and actually going through the data and everything again I came across numerous rooms that I had misnumbered, accidently entered the wrong square footage or listed twice, or missed entirely. In total I made about 20,000 square ft worth of errors out of about 8 million total square feet on campus. My error rate was about .0025%.

Of course these were corrected as soon as they were discovered, but using the logic some seem to be applying here I absolutely did it intentionally with the purpose of defrauding various departments and illegally siphoning off portions of their budget. No possible way I just overlooked some small things over the course of several hundred hours of work. 

Incredible that some do not see simple human error as even a remotely plausible explanation. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.11  TᵢG  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.1.10    2 weeks ago

Partisan desires distort reason.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.1.12  devangelical  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.6    2 weeks ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.13  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thrawn 31 @4.1.8    2 weeks ago
They found them 6 years later and did what they were supposed to do, what's your point?

My point is obvious. NARA had a detailed list of what Trump took, but no idea of what Biden had. If these lawyers had said nothing, we'd probably never know about these documents.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.14  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.7    2 weeks ago
Vic, do you even allow the possibility that Biden and his team actually did not know classified pages were in those storage boxes?

I'm not arguing that point. It wasn't the point of the article.


If they did not know, then 6 years or 60 years is irrelevant.

Please don't tell me that you don't understand. NARA had no idea that they were missing!!!!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.1.15  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.14    2 weeks ago
I'm not arguing that point. I

Well good!

Please don't tell me that you don't understand. NARA had no idea that they were missing!!!!

I would like to think that NARA, et. al. have a formal log of every classified document, each copy, and the location of each.

If you have something to share that shows this is true that would be great because this lack of national security is troublesome.

If, on the other hand, you are merely speculating then that is of no value.    The evidence thus far unfortunately suggests that our government is incompetent regarding national security.

So instead of your snarky crap, if you have something of value to share please do.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.16  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.15    2 weeks ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.17  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1.16    2 weeks ago

[Deleted

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

The premise of this seed is particularly weak, even after having taken the source into consideration. 

The NARA statement about Obama documents specifically refers to control of them by OBAMA.

As required by the [Presidential Records Act], former President Obama has no control over where and how NARA stores the Presidential records of his Administration.”

That was said, of course, as a response to Trump's allegation that OBAMA took thousands of classified documents with him when he left office. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
5.1  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @5    2 weeks ago

So why does Obama need all these documents? Are you saying he no control over then?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Greg Jones @5.1    2 weeks ago

I assume they will eventually be used for his presidential library.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
5.2  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @5    2 weeks ago
The NARA statement about Obama documents specifically refers to control of them by OBAMA.

BULL SHIT!

Now you want people believe that Obama was the only person that couldn't take them. If it was that way, every member of any administration could go take classified documents.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
6  Jasper2529    2 weeks ago

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Jasper2529
Professor Participates
7  Jasper2529    2 weeks ago

Why did Biden's DoJ/NARA allow his private lawyers to rummage through 4 locations to "find" Top Secret/Classified documents at his Penn/Biden office and private residence but didn't allow Trump's private lawyers to even enter Mar-a-Lago during the FBI's armed raid?

Two forms of "justice" depending on political party in power.

 
 
 
bccrane
Freshman Silent
7.1  bccrane  replied to  Jasper2529 @7    2 weeks ago

Because if you read the warrant for the raid of Trump, as was suggested by someone currently commenting on this seed, the warrant states that if a classified document was found the entire contents of that container must be also taken as well as any containers in close proximity.  Trump's lawyers would've impeded that document grab and that is what it was, a document grab using classified files as the reason.  The DOJ/FBI letting Biden's lawyers handle it is to let Biden keep all his documents and allowing the classified ones only to leave. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
7.1.1  Greg Jones  replied to  bccrane @7.1    2 weeks ago

In other words, Mar-a-Lago was a partisan political stunt to harass and try to dig up dirt on Trump.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Sophomore Quiet
7.1.2  afrayedknot  replied to  Greg Jones @7.1.1    2 weeks ago

“…and try to dig up dirt on Trump.”

That’s akin to a gravedigger covering up the deceased with three times the necessary dirt, ignoring the fact he is already dead and anything else becomes but piling on.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
7.1.3  Ronin2  replied to  afrayedknot @7.1.2    2 weeks ago

It is the two tier justice system at work. 

Let us all know when the FBI conducts raids on all Brandon offices, residences, and anywhere else he frequented. Instead of letting Brandon's hand picked sanitation team deem what is classified, what is relevant to be returned, and what makes Brandon look bad and is to be disposed of.

Or, just used the TDS Democrat narrative making it's way around that Trump had the documents planted.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.4  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @7.1.3    2 weeks ago

It makes no sense (not even commonsense) for a raid to take place when someone is cooperating with officials.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
7.1.5  Ronin2  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.4    2 weeks ago

Who the fuck is cooperating?

Do you understand that he has been in possession of the documents for over 6 damn years? They have been moved multiple times to unsecured locations. Chain of custody has been broken repeatedly.

Do you actually expect anyone with a pulse and working brain (which rules out all those on the left it seems) to believe that Brandon's sanitation team is trustworthy in the slightest? Especially when only 1 of the lawyers has clearance to view the documents. 

If Trump's lawyers can't be trusted to monitor what was taken at the Mar-a-Lago raid. Then Brandon's sanitation team sure as hell can't be trusted to do the entire damn job themselves! Talk about letting the fox run the hen house! 

So when the special prosecutor goes to investigate he will be dealing with a bunch of lawyers presenting evidence in the most favorable way for their client. It will be categorized, cleaned (read anything to vital and damaging will have been disposed of), and they will lay out very detailed steps they took to make sure they found all of the documents. Omitting everywhere they were not allowed to look; and all incriminating evidence that was with the documents.

Cooperating! Only in TDS leftist la la land!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.6  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @7.1.5    2 weeks ago
Who the fuck is cooperating?

Biden and his team.   They discovered the classified docs and immediately started searching for more.   Apparently you cannot see how that differs from claiming they are declassified, claiming executive privilege, claiming they are private property, and engaging in stalling tactics.

Do you understand that he has been in possession of the documents for over 6 damn years? 

Yes, Ronin, I do understand that.   Apparently you think Biden knew that he had classified documents and held them for 6 years.   Well, it is possible that he knew;  Biden could be lying.   It is also possible that he did not know.    No way for us to actually know one way or the other.   So do you think you know Biden is lying?    Do you have persuasive evidence to back up your hypothesis?

Do you actually expect anyone with a pulse and working brain (which rules out all those on the left it seems) to believe that Brandon's sanitation team is trustworthy in the slightest? Especially when only 1 of the lawyers has clearance to view the documents. 

Given they turned over documents that they found (rather than hide them) I think a rational mind would consider the possibility that Biden and his team want to secure any classified documents as their top priority.   That is, I think it is reasonable to assume they want to get past this and realize that trying to play games (as Trump did) would make things worse for the nation and worse for Biden.

If Trump's lawyers can't be trusted to monitor what was taken at the Mar-a-Lago raid. Then Brandon's sanitation team sure as hell can't be trusted to do the entire damn job themselves! Talk about letting the fox run the hen house! 

Well, Trump lawyers were initially 'trusted'.   Do you not remember what took place in that long period where NARA et. al. was trying to get Trump to return all of the docs?   Do you blot certain parts of reality out of your mind and only acknowledge that which suits you?

So when the special prosecutor goes to investigate he will be dealing with a bunch of lawyers presenting evidence in the most favorable way for their client. It will be categorized, cleaned (read anything to vital and damaging will have been disposed of), and they will lay out very detailed steps they took to make sure they found all of the documents. Omitting everywhere they were not allowed to look; and all incriminating evidence that was with the documents.

Possibly.   And the other possibility that you will not even consider is that maybe these people are trying to get past this and are actively seeking to find the documents and get them into a secured facility.   If a trial ensues, etc. attorneys will of course present the best possible case for their client.   That is how reality works.

Cooperating! Only in TDS leftist la la land!

Clearly you will reject all factors that go against your bias and exaggerate those that confirm your bias.   I sense no objective reasoning from your post.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
7.1.7  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Ronin2 @7.1.5    2 weeks ago

All you are going to get are "but Trruuummmmpppppp" bullshit and excuses.  It's all we've seen from the left since this was exposed. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.8  TᵢG  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @7.1.7    2 weeks ago

Well demonstrably you are wrong (what a surprise) as evidenced by my answer @7.1.6

It is so much better to get your facts straight before making wild declarations.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
7.1.9  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.8    2 weeks ago
Well demonstrably you are wrong

Nope.  You've provided several excuses for Biden mishandling classified materials. 7.1.6 is just the most recent list of them.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.10  TᵢG  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @7.1.9    2 weeks ago

Show the excuses.    Your vague claims are equivalent to bullshit.

I am confident that you will deem any facts or logic that counters your partisan bias and exaggerations to be an 'excuse'.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
7.1.11  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.6    2 weeks ago
  Apparently you think Biden knew that he had classified documents and held them for 6 years.   Well, it is possible that he knew;  Biden could be lying.   It is also possible that he did not know.    No way for us to actually know one way or the other.   So do you think you know Biden is lying?    Do you have persuasive evidence to back up your hypothesis?

The "Two-Faced" argument is such a persuasive argument, worth an actual ponder ?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.12  TᵢG  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @7.1.11    2 weeks ago

The reality is that Biden is either lying or he is not lying.   There are two sides to this coin.

And it is also the case that none of us in the public know if Biden is lying or telling the truth in this situation.

When something is unknown it is best to NOT engage in partisan bias to fill in that which is not known.

Do you know that Biden is lying?   

My position is that I do not know if he is lying or telling the truth.   His actions, however, are acts of cooperation (not delay tactics, claims of executive privilege, etc.).

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
7.1.13  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.12    2 weeks ago
When something is unknown it is best to NOT engage in partisan bias to fill in that which is not known.

Too bad the "Media" doesn't follow YOUR "Two-Faced" rules .... or do they ?

That's where most of the country gets who is lying or not, unless your still ALLOWED to have an opinion, based on past actions by others, that is "Reported" !

Do you believe in being able to hold an "OPINION" without claiming ..... "Your demonstrously Wrong --- No Suprise- Bullshit" (As if YOU KNOW  FOR SURE ?) ..... like I see posted ?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.14  TᵢG  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @7.1.13    2 weeks ago
Too bad the "Media" doesn't follow YOUR "Two-Faced" rules .... or do they ?

What is this "two-faced" nonsense?   Biden is either lying or he is not.   That is basic logic.    If we do not know if Biden is lying, the adult, serious approach would be to recognize the unknown and not fill in the blanks with partisan bias, etc.

Do you think Biden is lying?   If so, then offer something of value to support it.

Do you believe in being able to hold an "OPINION" without claiming .

Holding an opinion is one thing.   Making a claim is another.   If someone makes a claim that is demonstrably false, they should expect to be called out on it.   Especially if the claim is  nothing more than a snarky taunting attempt.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
7.1.15  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.14    2 weeks ago
If we do not know if Biden is lying, the adult, serious approach would be to recognize the unknown and not fill in the blanks with partisan bias, etc.

Most can only go by what is "Reported" by the "Media. But I'm Sure .... YOU know MORe than is what being reported.

If someone makes a claim that is demonstrably false,they should expect to be called out on it

By "Whose" Standards ... The "opposites" standards ?

What is this "two-faced" nonsense?   Biden is either lying or he is not. 

Now ya get the concept of a "Two-Faced" response as a "Finite" argument,  like some do here on NT !

Good Job !

What should one think "Transparent, and "Not being Transparent" means,  in your world anyway ?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.16  TᵢG  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @7.1.15    2 weeks ago
Most can only go by what is "Reported" by the "Media. But I'm Sure .... YOU know better.

Okay, per the media as a whole, is Biden lying about not knowing he had classified docs?    

If you have an answer, then back it up with evidence from the media that shows whether or not he is lying.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
7.1.17  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.16    2 weeks ago
Per the media as a whole, is Biden lying about not knowing he had classified docs or not?  

Lying !

Even the likes of MSNBC has called out Joe on a few other subjects too, for LYING !

You do watch those folks on TV, right ?

If you have a "Different" answer, then back it up with evidence.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.18  TᵢG  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @7.1.17    2 weeks ago

My answer, repeating myself, is that nobody knows.

I expected you to deflect and not deliver evidence and of course you did.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.19  TᵢG  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @7.1.17    2 weeks ago
Even the likes of MSNBC has called out Joe and a few subjects, for LYING !

I did not ask you if Biden lies, I asked you whether he was lying about the classified docs.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
7.1.20  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.18    2 weeks ago
I expected you to deflect and of course you did.

That would be YOU... since you started.

I did not ask you if Biden lies, I asked you whether he was lying about the classified docs.

jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

I already posted the Word "Lying".

Did you miss that, cause you were thinking about how you were going to respond instead ?

[ deleted ]

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
7.1.21  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.10    2 weeks ago
Show the excuses.

Did you miss where I identified them?  Start with 7.1.6.  Then go to the "my comments" section and read your comments there.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
7.1.22  Split Personality  replied to  Ronin2 @7.1.5    2 weeks ago
Who the fuck is cooperating?

Biden.  Can you cite one time he has gone to court to stop the investigation?

Can you tally up all of the times Trump has gone to court or attacked the court in social media?

Do you understand that he has been in possession of the documents for over 6 damn years? They have been moved multiple times to unsecured locations. Chain of custody has been broken repeatedly.

Yes.

Do you actually expect anyone with a pulse and working brain (which rules out all those on the left it seems) to believe that Brandon's sanitation team is trustworthy in the slightest? Especially when only 1 of the lawyers has clearance to view the documents. 

Yes.

If Trump's lawyers can't be trusted to monitor what was taken at the Mar-a-Lago raid. Then Brandon's sanitation team sure as hell can't be trusted to do the entire damn job themselves! Talk about letting the fox run the hen house! 

They called NARA and turned over the first batch of docs, they called DOJ when they found a document they weren't cleared to review at the residence.

So when the special prosecutor goes to investigate he will be dealing with a bunch of lawyers presenting evidence in the most favorable way for their client. It will be categorized, cleaned (read anything to vital and damaging will have been disposed of), and they will lay out very detailed steps they took to make sure they found all of the documents.

Can you imagine any worthy lawyer doing anything less?

Can you imagine a scenario where Trump's lawyers ..........oh never mind, trump's lawyers just kept repeating the mantra that there was nothing to see here, there and everywhere.

Has the FBI been to Trump Towers? Bedminster? Scottland?  Not yet.

Omitting everywhere they were not allowed to look; and all incriminating evidence that was with the documents.

Conspiracy theory 101. Congratulations.

Cooperating! Only in TDS leftist la la land!

Conspiracy! Only in rw extremists?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.23  TᵢG  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @7.1.21    2 weeks ago

Nothing but bullshit from you.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
7.1.24  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.23    2 weeks ago

What do you expect with the BS you've presented?  

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
7.1.25  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @7.1.20    2 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
7.2  cjcold  replied to  Jasper2529 @7    2 weeks ago
Why

Because Trump and his lawyers are serial criminals and did nothing but lie and stall.

Because Biden and his lawyers are not criminals and quickly acted in good faith.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
7.2.1  Jasper2529  replied to  cjcold @7.2    2 weeks ago
Because Trump and his lawyers are serial criminals and did nothing but lie and stall.

If this were true, they'd all be indicted and in prison by now.

Because Biden and his lawyers are not criminals and quickly acted in good faith.

If this were true, left wing media and politicians wouldn't be turning their backs on them. Even Adam Schiff has spoken out against Biden.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
7.2.2  cjcold  replied to  Jasper2529 @7.2.1    2 weeks ago
If this were true, they'd all be indicted and in prison by now.

Trump is so deep now that not even a far-right wing senate can save him.

The wheels of justice grind slow but grind fine.        Sun Tzu

Even Trump knows that he's going down this time. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
7.2.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  Jasper2529 @7.2.1    2 weeks ago
If this were true, they'd all be indicted and in prison by now.

Dude, do not forget that there are 2 different justice systems. One for rich people, even cash poor rich people like Trump, and then one for everyone else. 

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
7.2.4  Jasper2529  replied to  cjcold @7.2.2    2 weeks ago

Too funny!

"If wishes were horses ..."

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
7.3  Thrawn 31  replied to  Jasper2529 @7    2 weeks ago

Because one was just some shit that they found and handed over, and the other was law enforcement executing a search warrant because Trump wouldn't hand them over? Very complicated I know. 

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
7.3.1  Jasper2529  replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.3    2 weeks ago
because Trump wouldn't hand them over?

I'm sure you know that Trump complied with LE when they asked him to install a padlock on that locked closet/safe PRIOR to Garland's FBI armed raid.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.3.2  TᵢG  replied to  Jasper2529 @7.3.1    2 weeks ago

Do you ignore the other fact which is that he did not cooperate in the return of remaining documents.

It is the lack of cooperation in the return of ALL documents that triggered the FBI search at Mar-a-Lago.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
7.3.3  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  TᵢG @7.3.2    2 weeks ago
It is the lack of cooperation in the return of ALL documents that triggered the FBI search at Mar-a-Lago.

I don't think that is all of it. How would they know what he returned WASN'T all of them. Someone tipped them off that there were more documents. Maybe he was told that is all there was. And maybe he wanted to keep them. Either way, he shouldn't have.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
7.3.4  Jasper2529  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @7.3.3    2 weeks ago

Thank you for answering for me, Jim. Your comment is what I would have said. It seems that some on the left always think the worst of Trump (without any proof) and that the Biden Syndicate's ass is clean.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.3.5  TᵢG  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @7.3.3    2 weeks ago
I don't think that is all of it. How would they know what he returned WASN'T all of them.

Since I am not privy to their info I can only guess.    My first guess is that we actually have records somewhere on the location of our classified documents.    (That would be nice, right?)    So if a registered document has no known location and it was viable during Trump's time in office, one might suspect Trump had it.   

Others have made statements about Trump informants ... certainly a possibility.    

But what we know for a fact is that there were indeed a substantial number of classified documents remaining at Mar-a-Lago.    So however they got their information, they were correct.

I remain concerned that even a single page of classified (especially TS/SCI) material can so easily wind up out of the secured control of the various designated agencies who are responsible for the protection of national secrets.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
7.3.6  Ender  replied to  TᵢG @7.3.5    2 weeks ago
I remain concerned that even a single page of classified (especially TS/SCI) material can so easily wind up out of the secured control of the various designated agencies who are responsible for the protection of national secrets

That is the bigger picture no one wants to talk about. Seems to be an ongoing problem with several administrations.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
7.3.7  Thrawn 31  replied to  Jasper2529 @7.3.1    2 weeks ago

He did not give them back as repeatedly requested. That triggered the search warrant. 

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
7.3.8  Thrawn 31  replied to  TᵢG @7.3.5    2 weeks ago

That is my concern as well. It definitely seems like this is a problem that permeates through various admins and levels of authority. I think we need to have a serious review of how and where classified documents are viewed, handled, and stored once the appropriate parties are finished with them. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.3.9  TᵢG  replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.3.7    2 weeks ago

I do not know how many times I have reminded certain individuals of that fact.

It never seems to stick.

It is as if confirmation bias were at play.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.3.10  JohnRussell  replied to  Jasper2529 @7.3.4    2 weeks ago
It seems that some on the left always think the worst of Trump (without any proof)

Mind numbing. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
7.3.11  Split Personality  replied to  Thrawn 31 @7.3.8    2 weeks ago

Anyone here who has had TS clearance in the past knows that 

"classified" has been abused for decades with much of the information

already available on the internet or just plain common sense and not very

special at all.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
7.3.12  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Split Personality @7.3.11    2 weeks ago

That’s very true, rampant over classification and classifications remaining for too long.

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
8  Jasper2529    2 weeks ago
Ted Cruz
@tedcruz
·
With so many classified docs strewn about Biden’s home, have they considered checking his Corvette’s glove box yet?
Ted Cruz
@tedcruz
·
Full FBI raid happens when?
 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
9  Thrawn 31    2 weeks ago
Does anyone doubt the width & breath of the Deep Blue State?

You forgot to add the part about how the Democrats are actually lizard people. 

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
9.1  cjcold  replied to  Thrawn 31 @9    2 weeks ago

Nuthin like a little fresh type O- babies blood with OJ. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
10  author  Vic Eldred    2 weeks ago

"Paying $50,000 a month in rent is just not something that normal people do."

zRwXmd3g?format=jpg&name=small

"That sounds a whole lot like a money laundering operation that needs to be investigated."....Lauren Boebert

 
 
 
Jasper2529
Professor Participates
10.1  Jasper2529  replied to  Vic Eldred @10    2 weeks ago
"Paying $50,000 a month in rent is just not something that normal people do."

Even the monthly rents in same square footage/amenities private homes in Beverly Hills, Atherton, (both CA) and Westchester Cty (NY) are far less ... usually around $10K per month. 

Smells like Biden Family Crime Syndicate money laundering to me ... not enough bleach to hide their deals!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
10.2  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @10    2 weeks ago
"Paying $50,000 a month in rent is just not something that normal people do."

Certainly not; that is absurdly over-the-top.    And especially between family members.    How would anyone think that this would not trigger an IRS audit.

Stay tuned.

 
 

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