In reversal, US poised to approve Abrams tanks for Ukraine | AP News

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  perrie-halpern  •  6 days ago  •  88 comments

By:   AP NEWS

In reversal, US poised to approve Abrams tanks for Ukraine | AP News
WASHINGTON (AP) — In what would be a reversal, the Biden administration is poised to approve sending M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, U.S. officials said Tuesday, as international reluctance to send tanks to the battlefront against the Russians begins to erode.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



WASHINGTON (AP) — In what would be a reversal, the Biden administration is poised to approve sending M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, U.S. officials said Tuesday, as international reluctance to send tanks to the battlefront against the Russians begins to erode. A decision to send a bit more than 30 tanks could be announced as soon as Wednesday, though it could take months for the tanks to be delivered.

U.S. officials said details are still being worked out. One official said the tanks would be bought under an upcoming Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative package, which provides longer-range funding for weapons and equipment to be purchased from commercial vendors.

The U.S. announcement is expected in coordination with an announcement by Germany that it will approve Poland's request to transfer German-made Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, according to one official. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the decision has not yet been made public.

By agreeing to send the Abrams at an as-yet unspecified time under the assistance initiative, the administration is able to meet German Chancellor Olaf Scholz's demand for an American commitment without having to send the tanks immediately.

Much of the aid sent so far in the 11-month-old war has been through a separate program drawing on Pentagon stocks to get weapons more quickly to Ukraine. But even under that program, it would take months to get tanks to Ukraine and to get Ukrainian forces trained on them. It wasn't clear Tuesday how soon the U.S. will start training Ukrainian troops on the Abrams and roughly how soon they can get to the battlefront.

Until now, the U.S. has resisted providing its own M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, citing extensive and complex maintenance and logistical challenges with the high-tech vehicles. Washington believes it would be more productive to send German Leopards since many allies have them and Ukrainian troops would need less training than on the more difficult Abrams.

Just last week, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Colin Kahl told reporters that the Abrams is a complicated, expensive, difficult to maintain and hard to train on piece of equipment. One thing Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin has been very focused on, he said, "is that we should not be providing the Ukrainians systems they can't repair, they can't sustain, and that they, over the long term, can't afford, because it's not helpful."

A U.S. official familiar with White House thinking said the administration's initial hesitancy was based on concerns about the requisite training and the sustainment of the tanks. The official added that the administration believes that such plans are now in place, but it could take time to implement them.

At the Pentagon, spokesman Brig. Gen. Pat Ryder said he had nothing to announce on any U.S. decision regarding Abrams tanks. But he said, "anytime that we've provided Ukraine with a type of system, we've provided the training and sustainment capabilities with that."

The administration's reversal comes just days after a coalition of more than 50 senior defense officials from Europe and beyond met in Germany to discuss Ukraine's war needs, and battle tanks were a prime topic.

Ukrainian leaders have been urgently requesting tanks, but Germany had resisted mounting pressure either to supply its own tanks or clear the way for other countries, such as Poland, to send the German-made tanks from their own stocks. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the deployment of Western tanks would trigger "unambiguously negative" consequences.

Defense leaders from the countries that have Leopard 2 tanks met with the Germans during the Friday conference at Ramstein Air Base in an effort to hammer out an agreement.

On Sunday, Berlin indicated it wouldn't stand in the way if other countries wanted to send the Leopard 2 tanks to Kyiv. Germany needs to agree for the tanks to be given to Ukraine, which is not a member of NATO.

U.S. and German officials have given mixed signals about whether the U.S. and German decisions are linked, and whether Berlin was hesitant to send its tanks unless the U.S. sent Abrams.

Polish Defense Minister Mariusz Baszczak said Tuesday that Poland has officially requested permission from Germany to transfer its Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine.

German officials confirmed to the dpa news agency they had received the application and said it would be assessed "with due urgency." German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Sunday that Berlin wouldn't seek to stop Poland from providing the high-tech armor to Kyiv.

German officials declined to comment on the reports of a tank deal. The news weekly Der Spiegel reported Tuesday, without citing a source, that Germany will provide Ukraine with at least one company of Leopard 2 tanks from its own army's stock. A company comprises 15 tanks.

Scholz is due to deliver an address to parliament Wednesday and field questions from lawmakers, many of whom have been pressing the government to join allies in providing the tanks to Ukraine.

Lawmakers in Congress have also been pushing the U.S. to beef up its aid to Ukraine.

Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell said Tuesday "it's time, past time" for the Biden administration and allies to send more military aid to Ukraine, and that the U.S. must provide more tanks and weapons to help Ukraine "win this war."

"It's time, past time, for the Biden administration and our allies to get serious about helping Ukraine finish the job and retake their country."

The likely plans to send the Abrams were first reported by The Wall Street Journal.


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dennis smith
PhD Silent
1  dennis smith    6 days ago

The munitions we continue to send to Ukraine are depleting our stockpiles and according to estimates may take up to 5 + years to replenish after we stop sending them. 

China is licking their lips over this, and Taiwan will become a takeover target without the US ability to support them with weapons like we are in Ukraine.

Since Ukraine is a European country and has not been welcomed into NATO, it is time for Europe to take over the munitions burden.

 Unfortunately, the US Congress and admin run around like chicken little yelling that the sky is falling if they do that. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
1.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  dennis smith @1    6 days ago

Can we please see the valid source for "China is licking their lips over this...", but if there is none then that statement is nothing less than INTENTIONAL VICIOUS HATEMONGERING.  I think that intentional hatemongering should be a CoC offence requiring penalty points to be issued. 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
1.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1    6 days ago

So you are trying to deny that China isn't seeking to take over Taiwan by any means necessary.

Maybe you are trying to proclaim that this little display by China marking Pelosi's visit to Taiwan was just a celebration of her arrival; and not a show of absolute force?

China’s defense ministry announced Tuesday that its military would conduct “targeted” drills and missile tests around Taiwan in response to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi ’s arrival there on Tuesday, in Beijing’s latest escalation since news emerged of the speaker’s highly anticipated trip.

The “targeted military operations” are designed to “safeguard national sovereignty” in response to Pelosi’s visit, the defense ministry said Tuesday, vowing to “resolutely thwart external interference and ‘Taiwan’s independence’ separatist attempts.”

Experts raised alarms over the exercise, with some noting that the drills would overlap with Taiwan’s territorial waters. M. Taylor Fravel, director of the MIT Security Studies Program, said the drills appear to be “unprecedented,” noting that they would be “the largest number of exercises to be conducted very close to the island of Taiwan itself, and the first to take place on all sides surrounding Taiwan.

The drills could also include Chinese missiles overflying the island, Fravel said.

In another provocation , 21 Chinese aircraft entered Taiwan’s air defense zone on Tuesday, Taiwan’s defense ministry announced.

U.S. officials, however, have concluded that China’s threats against Pelosi — including a suggestion that her plane could be shot down — are nothing more than an intimidation tactic .

Xi has repeated and loudly stated that Taiwan is "a part of China". He has also threatened the use of military force against China. 

Or are you claiming Xi and the CCP aren't paying close attention to the amount of resources the US is wasting in Ukraine? That they are not smart enough to know the amount of US military hardware and resources available; and when the tipping point will come when the US will have too much devoted to Ukraine- and will not be able to defend Taiwan?

I give Xi and the CCP far more credit than you do. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
1.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1.1    6 days ago

I'm well aware that the USA is trying its best to provoke China, besides doing whatever it can to contain it.   After all, war is good business, eh?   As for what China IS going to do about Taiwan, I really don't know, but then neither does Dennis.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
1.1.3  Ronin2  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1.2    6 days ago
I'm well aware that the USA is trying its best to provoke China,

Provoke? As much as I can't stand Pelosi, since when is a member of Congress visiting any US ally and stating support for it provoking? Talk to Japan, South Korea, and all of the other countries around China about how much Xi and the CCP provoke them. Taiwan is a US ally; as much as Brandon pussyfoots around the issue.

besides doing whatever it can to contain it. 

Xi and the CCP are not our allies. Why wouldn't we try and contain them? Putin and the Russian government are not our allies; and we are going over and above to contain them. Even siding with a pro Fascist corrupt Ukraine government to do so.

After all, war is good business, eh?

China is the number two world super power right now. Since the Russians are failing so badly in Ukraine. Once they decide to start selling their military hardware and technology to the world I am sure they will take over the #2 spot from the Russia in that department as well.

As for what China IS going to do about Taiwan, I really don't know, but then neither does Dennis.

That is the difference between us. I actually believe all of Xi's military bluster and provocations. 

Xi is going to do whatever is best for himself. Taiwan has the world's largest semi and super conductor manufacturers. Xi wants that capability badly.

It is just a question of when Xi and the CCP feels they are capable of taking; w/o the US being able to respond.

You will also notice I differentiate between the Chinese people (who I have absolutely nothing against); and Xi and the CCP. I also feel the same way about the Russian people; and Putin and the Russian government.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
1.1.4  Greg Jones  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1    6 days ago

You refuse to admit the reality that the Communist Chinese government is a threat to peace and stability in that region. Why?

The problem is not people of China. Living there you and your family are at risk of reprisals if you criticize their ideology and actions.

 We in the US are not under such restrictions.

 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
1.1.5  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1.3    5 days ago
"As much as I can't stand Pelosi, since when is a member of Congress visiting any US ally and stating support for it provoking?"

America upholds and says it follows the "One China Policy" which it agreed to in the joint communiques and elsewhere, while it hypocritically contravenes political protocol such as what Pelosi did.

"Talk to Japan, South Korea, and all of the other countries around China about how much Xi and the CCP provoke them."

I know there is a dispute as to certain islands with Japan, but what has the CPC done to provoke South Korea?  Believe it or not there is also an unresolved long time dispute between Canada and America over the ownership of a certain island off the east coast.  So what?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
1.1.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Greg Jones @1.1.4    5 days ago
"You refuse to admit the reality that the Communist Chinese government is a threat to peace and stability in that region."

In what way is the CPC a threat to peace and stability in its region?  All I'm aware of is the Belt and Road Initiative, and the CPC taking a major beneficial role in the local Asian organizations.  

"Living there you and your family are at risk of reprisals if you criticize their ideology and actions."

Why do I need to criticize their ideology and actions?  I'm quite happy here.  My wife and her family are quite happy here.  All the people I know are quite happy here (which is quite different than those on NT who seem to think that everyone here is oppressed).  The burgeoning middle class is growing rapidly and abject poverty has been eradicated.  EVERYBODY has a decent roof over their heads, good and adequate food on the table, free education to high school graduation for their children and proper medical care.  Effort is being made as well to MAKE SURE that nobody will slide back into abject poverty.

"We in the US are not under such restrictions."

Aren't you lucky.  So what are you doing about the unbelievable level of gun violence - anything AT ALL that would make life safer there?   What are you doing about the more than half a million homeless people, sleeping on the streets and under bridges?  How much good does it do if all you can do is criticize your government?  Vote?  LOL  Big deal - that sure has made things better, eh?

 
 
 
dennis smith
PhD Silent
1.1.7  dennis smith  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1    5 days ago

It is sometimes hard to see the forest for the trees.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
1.1.8  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  dennis smith @1.1.7    5 days ago

Yes, that is an appropriate admission, 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
1.1.9  Sparty On  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1.2    4 days ago
I'm well aware that the USA is trying its best to provoke China, besides doing whatever it can to contain it.

This is intentional and vicious hate mongering.    The US is simply trying to help protect the sovereignty of another nation.    [deleted]

Man, can’t we all just get along?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
1.1.10  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Sparty On @1.1.9    4 days ago

LOL.  I don't think what I had to say would be interpreted in the manner that you wish it would be, but then those who would make those decisions may not be doing whatever they can to stir the pot or demonize an NT member. 

"Can't we all just get along?"

Give it a try, Sparty.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
1.1.11  cjcold  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1.2    4 days ago
After all, war is good business, eh? 

China is already the #1trading partner with the U.S..

Even with all of their sabre rattling over Taiwan, China won't risk war.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
1.1.12  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  cjcold @1.1.11    3 days ago
"Even with all of their sabre rattling over Taiwan, China won't risk war."

I doubt it as well.   I'm sure China will keep up the pressure in the hope of eventual success, and the paranoia constantly stated (perhaps conveniently created) by the American administration has its purposes too, both political and economic.

Santanyana showed much wisdom in saying that to ignore history will lead to repeating it.  It would be wise to not forget what Napoleon said - to let China sleep, or else awaken a tiger. 

 
 
 
Have Opinion Will Travel
Professor Participates
1.1.13  Have Opinion Will Travel  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1.1    2 days ago
[deleted]
 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
1.1.14  Sparty On  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1.10    yesterday
Give it a try, Sparty.

Take your own advice.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
1.1.15  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Sparty On @1.1.14    yesterday

Did somebody just say something?  I thought I heard a noise.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
1.2  Greg Jones  replied to  dennis smith @1    6 days ago

The US will likely never need those tanks for the defense of our homeland. They can be put to their highest and best use by containing Russia's unprovoked aggression.

 The next best use is to lend them to Taiwan.

 

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
1.3  al Jizzerror  replied to  dennis smith @1    5 days ago
The munitions we continue to send to Ukraine are depleting our stockpiles

We have hundreds of tanks in storage according to General Barry McCaffrey.

We are also replenishing our munitions stockpiles rapidly with an eye on China.

Congress supersizes munitions production with emergency authorities

WASHINGTON — Congress is set to allocate more than $8 billion to bolster high-priority munitions production while granting the Pentagon wartime procurement powers to help Ukraine fight Russia and refill U.S. stockpiles.

The $858 billion National Defense Authorization Act for fiscal 2023 , which the House passed 350-80 on Thursday and is expected to face a Senate vote this week, authorizes more than $2.7 billion in across-the-board munitions funding . That’s on top of $5.9 billion for the Navy to procure additional munitions and expand U.S. industrial base production capacity. Congress is still negotiating a final appropriations package to fund the munitions authorizations alongside other domestic priorities.

Furthermore, a series of emergency munitions provisions in the NDAA are intended to speed up the process by waiving multiple restrictions on Pentagon procurement authorities while allowing it to use multi-year contracts typically reserved for large programs, like Navy vessels and major aircraft.

“The unavoidable fact is that when we provide weapons to Ukraine to defend their sovereignty, we take them out of our own stockpile,” Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, said Monday on the Senate floor. “To transfer weapons to Ukraine combined with production challenges in the defense industrial base has made it challenging to quickly replenish our own stockpiles . But this legislation, when it’s passed, will help that.”

“We need to be ready not just to deal with the current challenges in Europe; we need to be ready for any challenge no matter where it arises, especially ... in Asia,” he added.

The $5.9 billion authorized for the Navy to procure 2,365 additional munitions comes as Congress seeks to bolster the U.S. fleet to compete with China in the Pacific. This is $ 1.1 billion above what the Biden administration requested for Navy munitions funding.

 
 
 
dennis smith
PhD Silent
1.3.1  dennis smith  replied to  al Jizzerror @1.3    5 days ago

Too little too late if China does what they say they are going to do regarding Taiwan.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
1.4  Thrawn 31  replied to  dennis smith @1    4 days ago

China is not as eager or ready to invade Taiwan as you seem to think. We all thought Russia was scary, til they attacked a country on their doorstep with months of preparation. 

An island invasion is SIGNIFICANTLY harder, requires a lot more troops, and of course a method of resupply that makes your stomach turn. China will see its military power in Asia destroyed in Taiwan. They may take the Island, but they will be so fucked up it wouldn't have even been worth it. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
2  Buzz of the Orient    6 days ago

Maybe it's time to ask everyone if theyve built their fallout shelter yet?  The next time a Russian nuclear sub wanders into American waters, its captain won't be Theodore Bikel or Sean Connery. . 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
2.1  Ronin2  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2    6 days ago

Given the Russian Navy seems to be run the same way the Russian Army; chances are it would sink with all hands on board off the US coast before even firing a shot.

But I will agree with you on the US repeatedly poking the Russian Bear.

If Putin is as weak and vulnerable as the so called experts like to claim he is; then he very easily could end the planet if his very limited goals in Ukraine become unobtainable. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
2.2  Greg Jones  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2    6 days ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
2.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2    6 days ago

LOL!

No, I'm not going to the trouble. I want to be taken out at the first blast.

 
 
 
Freefaller
Professor Participates
2.3.1  Freefaller  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.3    4 days ago
I want to be taken out at the first blast.

Lol I doubt any blast is much of a concern in Maine

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
2.3.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Freefaller @2.3.1    4 days ago

Exactly, I don’t want to go in the first salvo.  I want to read the comments of survivors here before deporting.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
2.3.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Freefaller @2.3.1    4 days ago

Nuclear winter would probably be good for lobster.

 
 
 
Freefaller
Professor Participates
2.3.4  Freefaller  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.3.3    4 days ago

Mmmm nuclear lobster with butter sauce.  You're probably they are bottom feeders after all

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
2.3.5  Ender  replied to  Freefaller @2.3.1    4 days ago

I kinda want to live and fight zombies.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
2.3.6  al Jizzerror  replied to  Freefaller @2.3.1    4 days ago
Lol I doubt any blast is much of a concern in Maine

I had a blast in Maine.  There is a great dispensary there with outstanding weed.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
2.3.7  al Jizzerror  replied to  Freefaller @2.3.4    4 days ago
Mmmm nuclear lobster with butter sauce.

If you add a grain of Plutonium to your lobster pot, they will shed their shells and provide a delicious last meal.

 
 
 
shona1
Junior Participates
2.3.8  shona1  replied to  al Jizzerror @2.3.7    4 days ago

Arvo al...ahh you have got to live dangerously...I just came back from a swim with a 2.5 metre great white..(he is just a little tacker)...

He is sloshing around the bay after two dead whales where I go swimming...he did chomp on a boat engine probably teething!!

Wonder what a touch of plutonium would do to him..

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
2.3.9  al Jizzerror  replied to  shona1 @2.3.8    4 days ago
I just came back from a swim with a 2.5 metre great white..(he is just a little tacker)...

Holy shit!

This is why Jaws wasn't filmed in Australia:

512

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
2.3.10  Ender  replied to  al Jizzerror @2.3.9    4 days ago

Eh, I just worry about them land sharks. They knock on your door and try to trick you.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
2.3.11  al Jizzerror  replied to  Ender @2.3.10    4 days ago
land sharks.

Oh, don'y worry "land sharks" are just a myth.

 
 
 
Freefaller
Professor Participates
2.3.12  Freefaller  replied to  Ender @2.3.5    2 days ago
I kinda want to live and fight zombies.

Lol I with you for regular zombies but nuclearated ones are much more dangerous.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Sophomore Guide
3  Right Down the Center    6 days ago

I will say again what I have said since the start of this war.  Either give them what they need to win or give them nothing and let them lose with the minimum loss of life and infrastructure.  The piecemeal approach is good for no one.  Not Russia, not Ukraine, not Europe and not the US.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
3.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Right Down the Center @3    6 days ago

On one aspect I beg to differ with you.  It's heaven on earth for the arms industry. 

 
 
 
dennis smith
PhD Silent
3.2  dennis smith  replied to  Right Down the Center @3    5 days ago

Spot on Right Down the Center. 

Shit or get off the pot in Ukraine. There has been minimal accountability for what has been given to them by the US and they continue to ask for more. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4  Jeremy Retired in NC    6 days ago

With the high level of maintenance the M1 requires, I see most of these being broken within a few weeks.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4.1  Ronin2  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4    6 days ago

I don't envy the US soldiers that will be forced to train the Ukraine military that is used to operating Russian tanks. The learning curve is going to be ridiculous.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4.1.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1    6 days ago

The training for US Soldiers is 5 weeks.  In that they learn tank operations, armor offensive and defensive tactics, field combat strategy, and map reading.  I don't think 5 weeks will be enough to train the Ukraine military on just the use of the M1.  

The training for the mechanics of the M1 is 24 weeks.  It's almost a given this training won't be given.  Like I said, these will be broken down in a matter of weeks.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
4.1.2  JBB  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1    6 days ago

Do you envy the Russians who will be killed by the Ukrainians?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4.1.3  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JBB @4.1.2    6 days ago
Do you envy the Russians who will be killed by the Ukrainians?

WTF does that have to do with what Ronin and I are talking about?  

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
4.1.4  JBB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.1.3    6 days ago

The article is about the US sending tanks to Ukrainians to kill damned Russian invaders. What are you and Ronin discussing?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4.1.5  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JBB @4.1.4    6 days ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Sophomore Guide
4.1.6  Right Down the Center  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.1.5    6 days ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
4.1.7  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.1.1    6 days ago
The training for US Soldiers is 5 weeks. 

Yes and then he will go into a tank that has at least two experienced tankers.  Training will be very challenging.  The Leopard is far more suitable both from a training perspective and maintainability.  It also is more appropriate for dismounts hugging the the rear, it gets really hot behind the M-1.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
4.1.8  Split Personality  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.7    6 days ago

and as a diesel already operated in almost every NATO country, transportation of the Leopard to the Ukraine will be infinitely easier and quicker.

Even US tank commanders in Germany cross trained on the Leopard2 praised them.

Better optics, better audio, equally lethal as the M1, regular diesel fuel compared to the 

jet grade fuel specific to the M1 are all advantages.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1.9  Kavika   replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.7    6 days ago

Poland currently has over 300 Abrams on order from the US as well as 189 K2 MBT from S. Korea the first of which arrived in Poland in Nov/Dec 2022.

Poland has around 250 Leopard 2 tanks and it looks like they are being replaced with the Abrams and K2.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
4.1.10  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Split Personality @4.1.8    6 days ago

Yes, the Leopard 2 is great tank and more suitable for their mission for multiple reasons.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1.11  Kavika   replied to  Split Personality @4.1.8    6 days ago

I was reading some articles that said the Abrams can use any fuel, not just jet fuel. Gasoline, diesel, kerosene etc, and the Australia military is using diesel in their Abrams.

I'm trying to find more informative on this.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Participates
4.1.12  arkpdx  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.1.3    6 days ago

Personally I don't give a damn about the Russian soldiers that will be killed by those tanks. They have no business being where they are. They have the choice to either surrender or die. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Participates
4.1.13  arkpdx  replied to  Kavika @4.1.11    6 days ago

Jet engines can use any type of fuel that you can spray fine enough throu a nozzle. If you could powder coal fine enough it would work. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1.14  Kavika   replied to  Kavika @4.1.11    6 days ago

Here is a link to an excellent article on how the M1 works and yes, it can use any type of fuel.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
4.1.15  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Kavika @4.1.14    6 days ago

Tanks for the memories, Kavika.  

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
4.1.16  Split Personality  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.10    5 days ago

More modern Leopards fitted with a 50 cal require a crew member to expose himself to use the weapon.

The major edge goes to the M1series firing depleted uranium.

But since most of the cannons are compatible if not identical Rhinelaner M256

there's nothing to stop the Ukrainians from acquiring DU rounds for the Leopards,

right? 

I am sure they aren't as squeamish as the Germans when it comes to anything nuclear. 

The Russians have every reason to be worried.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
4.1.17  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Split Personality @4.1.16    5 days ago
right? 

Yes.

The Russians have every reason to be worried.

Yes.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4.1.18  Ronin2  replied to  JBB @4.1.2    5 days ago

As JRINC stated.

How many Russians will be killed before the M1 tanks break down; and have to be taken back to Poland to have the US military repair?

This is going to be ridiculously expensive for US taxpayers. While you might not care some of us do.

Why don't you ask our supposed European allies where the fuck are they with sending military hardware, munitions, logistics, or even just money to Ukraine? Germany will send Leopard tanks to Ukraine- but that will take 3 months.

.

The announcement was matched by the US. On Wednesday, President Joe Biden said that he was providing 31 M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, reversing the administration’s longstanding resistance to requests from Kyiv for the highly sophisticated but maintenance-heavy vehicles. The German army has 320 Leopard 2 tanks in its possession but does not reveal how many would be battle ready, a spokeswoman for the Ministry of Defense previously told CNN.

So 31 Abrams and how many ever Leopard 2 tanks Germany can scrape together and get battle ready. Considering the state of the German military just how many do you think they will send?

Just how much is it going to cost the US taxpayer to prop up the pro fascist corrupt Ukraine government?

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy fired at least nine top officials on Tuesday as his government battles claims of bribery and officials splurging on lavish lifestyles during the war.

Four deputy ministers and five regional governors were sacked by Ukraine's cabinet on Tuesday, according to the Telegram channel of Oleg Nemchinov, the secretary of the cabinet of ministers.

Ukraine's deputy prosecutor general, Oleksiy Symonenko, also announced his resignation on the same day, the BBC reported.

The wave of dismissals and resignations comes as some of Ukraine's top leaders were accused of buying military food at inflated prices and taking luxury holidays as their countrymen fight Russia's invasion.

In December, Symonenko went on holiday to Spain using a Mercedes owned by a prominent Ukrainian businessman, The Guardian reported.

A spokesperson for Ukraine's border guard was also maligned for partying in Paris as the war continued in eastern Ukraine, per Bloomberg.

In response, Zelenskyy on Sunday vowed to stamp out longstanding corruption within Ukraine's leadership. 

Ukraine would see "no return to the way things used to be," he said in a video address , adding that the coming week would be the "time of appropriate decisions."

"Of course, now the main focus is the issue of defense, this is the issue of foreign policy, this is the issue of war," he said. "But this does not mean that I do not see and hear what is being said in society at various levels, both at the central level and in the regions."

On Monday, Zelenskyy banned officials from traveling abroad until the end of the war, except for when performing government duties.

"If they want to rest now, they will rest outside the civil service," he said.

Another sacked official, former Deputy Defense Minister Vyacheslav Shapovalov, resigned after Ukrainian newspapers reported that he had purchased food for the military at prices inflated two or three times higher than in grocery stores.

Keep feeding the Ukrainian pig. I am sure none of are hard earned tax payer money will make it's way back into our politicians', their children's, or close friends' hands./S

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
4.1.19  JBB  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1.18    5 days ago

The costs of US assistance to Ukraine? Tens of billions!

Whipping Putin and killing Russian invaders? Priceless!

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5  Kavika     6 days ago

I believe that sending the M1 to Ukraine is for show purposes to prod the Germans into sending the Leopard and allowing other countries to send theirs. IE, Poland, Spain, Finland, Denmark, etc. and it worked. 

The two variants of the Leopard the 44 and 55 are being sent to Ukraine with the 55 in lesser numbers but a ''super Leopard'' tank. 

Jeremy the US is currently training the Ukraine army in combined arms in  Grafenwoehr, Germany.

The Ukrainians have proven that they are very adaptive in using new weapons provided by the west and also in inventing some of their own in the middle of a brutal war. The Russians underestimated Ukraine as have the west to a degree. What we have seen over the past year is no matter how brutal the Russians are Ukraine has destroyed a good part of the Russian army with a mishmash of weapons and the Russians are now relying on the Wagner Group to do most of the fighting. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Principal
6  Nerm_L    6 days ago

What happened to the tanks that have already been supplied to Ukraine?  Ukraine has received more than 200 T-72 tanks from various NATO arsenals.  And Ukrainians have been capturing munitions that are compatible with the T-72 guns.  

It seems that the emphasis has been to replace manpower with technology.  Training on the technology takes manpower away from the battlefield.  And the real training doesn't begin until the equipment is in the field.  Ukraine doesn't have the luxury of blending new trainees into experienced units.

Zelensky has been demanding a gradual escalation in fighting technology.  That doesn't bode well for future conduct of the war.  Why not cut to the chase and deliver nukes?  That is what Ukrainians really want, after all.

 
 
 
dennis smith
PhD Silent
6.1  dennis smith  replied to  Nerm_L @6    5 days ago

This is between Ukraine and Russia. Had Ukraine wanted to be a member of NATO, they would have done what it takes to do so, and NATO would have directly involved and this would most likely be over. 

NATO countries instead are supplying munitions which Russia has said it sees as sees as involvement. If Russia does not realize their ambition the possibilities of nuclear options increases.   

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
6.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  dennis smith @6.1    5 days ago
This is between Ukraine and Russia.

You are leaving out the US; and whatever our European allies scrape together to send. Also China, North Korea, and Iran who are all selling weapons and munitions to Russia. This is a massive proxy war that is getting worse with each and every escalation. Putin decides to use tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine- what is the rest of the world going to do to stop him. That is if he is really as weak right now as all of the experts are claiming.

Had Ukraine wanted to be a member of NATO, they would have done what it takes to do so,

Ukraine wanted to be in NATO; but NATO balked.  Seems that they do belatedly remember some promises made to Russia about expansion; and provoking a nuclear power capable of destroying the planet isn't a good idea.

and NATO would have directly involved and this would most likely be over. 

I agree, it would be over. We would all have already found out that the Fallout series is just a computer game; and no one survives a full scale nuclear war.

NATO countries instead are supplying munitions which Russia has said it sees as sees as involvement. If Russia does not realize their ambition the possibilities of nuclear options increases.   

At least we agree on that much. Which is why upping the scale by sending tanks is so bad. Putin has scaled back his goals in Ukraine. If he cannot achieve even those limited goals he might not survive in power. If so Putin is dead; and he might just decide to take the world with him before he goes. Considering that his dream of Russia as a world super power will be over if it fails in Ukraine. The Russian military is broken; and if no one believes Putin will use nuclear weapons Russia is done. It is only a matter of time before the US decides to roll to Moscow. 

 
 
 
dennis smith
PhD Silent
6.1.2  dennis smith  replied to  Ronin2 @6.1.1    4 days ago

If Ukraine wanted to become a NATO member, they needed to commit to what the NATO membership requires. They did not.

Whether Russia uses Nukes because of failure in Ukraine or in a war with NATO is not likely to change. 

 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Principal
6.1.3  Nerm_L  replied to  dennis smith @6.1    4 days ago
This is between Ukraine and Russia. Had Ukraine wanted to be a member of NATO, they would have done what it takes to do so, and NATO would have directly involved and this would most likely be over.  NATO countries instead are supplying munitions which Russia has said it sees as sees as involvement. If Russia does not realize their ambition the possibilities of nuclear options increases.   

2,000 troops on the banks of the Dnieper would have avoided the invasion.  Biden could have sent a small number of troops to safeguard Chernobyl.  It was only necessary to show the flag.  But that would have initiated a diplomatic process between Russia and the United States (which is what all this has been about).  The Ukrainian government was in a very weak position to obtain a diplomatic solution and would not have been a significant player in arriving at a diplomatic solution.

Right now the war in Ukraine can be summarized as the Soviets are killing each other, let them.  Biden has chosen to fight a brush war that maintains a balance of power.  On that path, supplying Ukraine with nuclear weapons becomes almost inevitable.

 
 
 
dennis smith
PhD Silent
6.1.4  dennis smith  replied to  Nerm_L @6.1.3    3 days ago

Supplying Ukraine could become endless.

 
 
 
dennis smith
PhD Silent
6.1.5  dennis smith  replied to  Ronin2 @6.1.1    3 days ago

Who said anything about a FULL scale nuclear war?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.1.6  Sparty On  replied to  Nerm_L @6.1.3    3 days ago
Right now the war in Ukraine can be summarized as the Soviets are killing each other, let them. 

Well put.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
6.2  cjcold  replied to  Nerm_L @6    4 days ago
Why not cut to the chase and deliver nukes?

Pretty sure that the rest of the world would rather avoid a nuclear WWIII.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
Professor Principal
6.2.1  Nerm_L  replied to  cjcold @6.2    4 days ago
Pretty sure the rest of the world would rather avoid WWIII.

Avoiding World War III would require diplomacy.  Where are the diplomats?

Winning a conventional war in Ukraine depends entirely upon Russian nuclear restraint.  Wars aren't avoided by supplying more weapons and escalating the fighting.

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
7  magicschoolbusdropout    6 days ago

A decision to send a bit more than 30 tanks could be announced as soon as Wednesday, though it could take months for the tanks to be delivered.

And how much more can the "Russians" achieve in Ukraine, during those months they aren't delivered. Same goes for the "Leopard" tank delivery Promise.

Maybe, Just maybe, this should have been thought about, as soon as this "Conflict" started ?

Let the EU and others over there send their own stuff, at their own expense. After all, the "Conflict" is occurring in their own "Backyard".

Not Ours !

"WE", the United States of America, aren't the worlds POLICE ...... RIGHT ?

[deleted]

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
7.1  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @7    6 days ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Participates
7.1.1  arkpdx  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @7.1    6 days ago

deleted

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
7.1.2  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  arkpdx @7.1.1    6 days ago

I Hear Ya !

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
7.2  al Jizzerror  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @7    5 days ago
"WE", the United States of America , aren't the worlds POLICE ...... RIGHT ?

WRONG!  America has been the defacto World Police since WWI.

I guess you're not on the team.  I am a proud member of Team America.

512

This is the theme song for Team America World Police:

This should be our National Anthem (Fuck Yeah!).

 
 
 
magicschoolbusdropout
Sophomore Principal
7.2.1  magicschoolbusdropout  replied to  al Jizzerror @7.2    4 days ago
WRONG!  America has been the defacto World Police since WWI.

Whoooosh.

My Comments underlying meaning went right over your head...... or ........ "History" eludes you on purpose .... Huh !

America is not the world's policeman.

At least it gave you a chance to post a silly picture response that gets you "Crowd" Cheering.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
7.2.2  al Jizzerror  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @7.2.1    3 days ago
My Comments underlying meaning went right over your head

That's fucking impossible (as well as oxy moron ic).

I'm vaping Litreacola (good shit) and I'm drinking Kraken black rum.

I'm so high, I don't know where the fuck I am.

BTW, like it or not, America IS, "the World police." 

512

 
 
 
dennis smith
PhD Silent
7.3  dennis smith  replied to  magicschoolbusdropout @7    3 days ago

Ukraine, Russia EU/Nato, US thought this out very well.

Now all are embroiled in a long drawn out war.. 

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
8  bbl-1    5 days ago

Where are the F-16s?

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Principal
8.1  Split Personality  replied to  bbl-1 @8    5 days ago

In the countries still waiting for their F35s.

Word is that the F16 training program is already in place 

US estimates are 6 months to train pilots 18 to train mechanics.

The Ukrainians say 6 weeks for pilots, mechanics in Ukraine learn on the job.

 
 
 
bbl-1
Professor Quiet
8.1.1  bbl-1  replied to  Split Personality @8.1    5 days ago

Three days after the Russian invasion there was a report that the Dutch sent four squadrons of F-16s to Romania.  No news after that.  A year has passed. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
8.1.2  Kavika   replied to  bbl-1 @8.1.1    5 days ago

In August of 2022, tiny North Macedonia turned over four SU 25s fighter jets to Ukraine and a number of T 72 battle tanks. 

North Macedonia is a NATO member and has a population of  two million but is stratigic located in the Balkans.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Junior Expert
9  al Jizzerror    5 days ago

Can I please have an M-1 Abrams Tank?

They are a fucking blast!

512

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
9.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  al Jizzerror @9    5 days ago

I don’t think that you can afford one or the upkeep.

 
 
 
cjcold
Professor Quiet
9.2  cjcold  replied to  al Jizzerror @9    4 days ago

Gotta love a tank that could win an arctic drifting contest.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
10  Thrawn 31    4 days ago

I get that this was a way to get the German tanks into battle, but if we are going to be seriously sending M1s in then we better be prepared to help with the maintenance. The M1 is an amazing tank, but it takes a lot of work to keep it going. 

 
 

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