DeSantis' anti-woke law remains blocked in Florida colleges - POLITICO

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  kavika  •  one week ago  •  47 comments

By:   Gov. Ron DeSantis (POLITICO)

DeSantis' anti-woke law remains blocked in Florida colleges  - POLITICO
U.S. District Judge Mark Walker determined the anti-woke law is "positively dystopian."

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Florida

DeSantis' anti-woke law remains blocked in Florida colleges


U.S. District Judge Mark Walker determined the anti-woke law is "positively dystopian."

While the groups that challenged the state are claiming victory over the ruling, Gov. Ron DeSantis officials say the state will ultimately prevail once the case is heard. | Joe Raedle/Getty Images

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Florida remains unable to enforce the "Stop-WOKE" law touted by Gov. Ron DeSantis in light of a federal appeals court ruling Thursday that keeps the policies on hold for colleges and universities.

The 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied a request from the DeSantis administration and higher education officials to block an injunction that determined the law restricting how race can be taught in schools was unconstitutional, ensuring that state officials are barred from carrying out the measure for now. While the groups that challenged the state are claiming victory over the ruling, DeSantis officials say the state will ultimately prevail once the case is heard.

"Professors must be able to discuss subjects like race and gender without hesitation or fear of state reprisal," said the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, or FIRE, one group that sued over the legislation. "Any law that limits the free exchange of ideas in university classrooms should lose in both the court of law and the court of public opinion."

Breaking it down: In a two-paragraph order, a three-judge panel of the appeals court denied the state's request for a stay of the injunction from U.S. District Judge Mark Walker, who determined the anti-woke law is "positively dystopian."

Florida's Republican-led Legislature approved the legislation, FL HB 7 (22R), or the Individual Freedom Act, in 2022 to expand anti-discrimination laws to prohibit schools and companies from leveling guilt or blame to students and employees based on race or sex. Inspired by DeSantis, it takes aim at lessons over issues like "white privilege" by creating new protections for students and workers, including that a person should not be instructed to "feel guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress" due to their race, color, sex or national origin.

The law was challenged in several lawsuits, including one by FIRE and another by the ACLU, ACLU of Florida and Legal Defense Fund, both of which sued the state on behalf of students and educators. Despite the legal challenges, the DeSantis administration expects the policies to be found lawful.

"The Court did not rule on the merits of our appeal," Bryan Griffin, press secretary for DeSantis, said in a statement. "The appeal is ongoing, and we remain confident that the law is constitutional."

What's next: There is no hearing currently scheduled in the case.

POLITICO

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Kavika
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Kavika     one week ago
 In a two-paragraph order, a three-judge panel of the appeals court denied the state's request for a stay of the injunction from U.S. District Judge Mark Walker, who determined the anti-woke law is "positively dystopian."
Appellants' motions to stay injunction pending appeal are denied. The Clerk is directed to treat any motion for reconsideration of this order as a non-emergency matter," the   decision   read.
 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1  devangelical  replied to  Kavika @1    one week ago

... his actions are typical of those republicans that claim they want less government.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.1.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  devangelical @1.1    one week ago

That certainly seems to be the case.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Senior Expert
2  Gsquared    one week ago

"Positively Dystopian" describes the entire MAGA Republican agenda.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
2.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Gsquared @2    one week ago
describes the entire MAGA Republican agenda.

Sadly, that seems to be the case.

 
 
 
Veronica
PhD Guide
3  Veronica    one week ago

It is HILARIOUS how some will bitch and moan about their rights and individual freedoms UNTIL someone that doesn't think like them want the same rights & individual freedoms.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
3.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Veronica @3    one week ago

Exactly, Veronica.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
4  Trout Giggles    one week ago

I think anyone who feels like they are made to feel guilt about their race are snow flakes and need to buck up. Nobody cares your feelings...don't we hear that all the time?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Trout Giggles @4    one week ago
Nobody cares your feelings...don't we hear that all the time?

Every day on NT.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
PhD Quiet
4.2  Jack_TX  replied to  Trout Giggles @4    one week ago
Nobody cares your feelings...don't we hear that all the time?

Yes.  And to the extent that someone demands the rest of us change behavior because of their feelings, it's 100% true.

Further, any law that attempts to impose penalties for hurting someone else's feelings is ridiculous.  

That said, the state is completely within its duty to govern curriculum in public schools, including universities.  If the elected representatives of the state decide that something will be excluded or included, that's up to them.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @4.2    one week ago
That said, the state is completely within its duty to govern curriculum in public schools, including universities.  If the elected representatives of the state decide that something will be excluded or included, that's up to them.

A federal judge and then the appeals court both rejected the ''stop woke law'' based on the 1st amendment. Also part of the law applied to private businesses. In three separate lawsuits, the ''stop woke law'' regarding K-12 is being challenged. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
PhD Quiet
4.2.2  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @4.2.1    one week ago

Well, if it attempts to legislate feelings, that's hardly surprising.

Lots of states have passed laws against teaching kids they're at fault for something just because they're white.  It's not unconstitutional on its own.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2.3  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @4.2.2    one week ago
Lots of states have passed laws against teaching kids they're at fault for something just because they're white.  It's not unconstitutional on its own.

I guess that teaching real history, the good, bad and the ugly is verboten when it comes to white kids. No such rule/law existed to protect minority children back in the day. But, hey it's all about feelings, sadly only one-sided feelings.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
PhD Quiet
4.2.4  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @4.2.3    one week ago
I guess that teaching real history,

"Real history" is such a ridiculous and nonsensical term.  It's used by people who simply want their version taught instead of somebody else's.  I'm always curious where people imagine we're going to find the time to teach all of their laundry lists of transgressions.   

the good, bad and the ugly is verboten when it comes to white kids. No such rule/law existed to protect minority children back in the day.

A lot of shit didn't exist "back in the day", like concussion protocols in school sports, for example.  Hardly seems a good reason not to have them now.

But, hey it's all about feelings, sadly only one-sided feelings.

I dunno.  White liberal guilt is a feeling, and they can't seem to stop beating everybody over the head with it.

And again, you can't legislate feelings.  You can, however, legislate actions.  Which is what other states have done.  

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2.6  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @4.2.4    one week ago
"Real history" is such a ridiculous and nonsensical term.  

Nice rant, would you have preferred that I used, genuine, authentic, bona fide, actual, or factual instead since they are much the same? 

It's used by people who simply want their version taught instead of somebody else's. 

It is? if you read my comment it says to teach all, the good the bad, and the ugly. That would be inclusive of all sides. 

I'm always curious where people imagine we're going to find the time to teach all of their laundry lists of transgressions.

Wonder no more, it's quite simple to discuss both sides it actually helps the kids learn. 

A lot of shit didn't exist "back in the day", like concussion protocols in school sports, for example.  Hardly seems a good reason not to have them now.

Not a good example. Back in the day could include right up to and including 2022. Actually, if you would like I can give you cases that have been adjudicated in 2022 on voting rights. Of course the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s. 80s and 90s have their fair share as well.

I dunno.  White liberal guilt is a feeling, and they can't seem to stop beating everybody over the head with it.

Just to be sure that you understand that I'm not white, 99.44% American Indian nor liberal, more of a blue dog dem with some liberal ideas mixed in and actually have voted for republicans and worked on the Brian Sandavol gubernatorial race in NV and was invited to his inauguration. Now that I've cleared that up perhaps if white conservative understanding was more apparent then you wouldn't be getting beat over the head by white liberals. 

And again, you can't legislate feelings.  You can, however, legislate actions.  Which is what other states have done. 

It would seem that the right is trying to legislate feelings, those that don't agree with theirs. 

What have other states done? Making it illegal to teach that boogyman called CRT?

Did you see a few of the news stories in the last few days? Teachers reprimanded for teaching about Rosa Parks and why she is famous or the teacher that was reprimanded for actually reading to their class from Christopher Columbus's writings about enslaving natives...Talk about having their head up their ass, but hey it's just feelings. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.2.7  JohnRussell  replied to  Jack_TX @4.2.4    one week ago

The fact is racial minorities have been "otherized" and mistreated throughout US history. The evidence is not only voluminous, there have been hundreds of books written, with footnotes, on the general topic. 

Its not at all a question of whether it happened , its a question of whether or not white parents want their kids to know such things. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
PhD Quiet
4.2.8  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @4.2.6    one week ago
Nice rant, could you have preferred that I used, genuine, authentic, bona fide, actual or factual instead since they are much the same? 

It all still boils down to "your preferred set of stories", so no, it doesn't matter at all.

It is? if you read my comment it says to teach all, the good the bad, and the ugly. That would be inclusive of all sides.

There is not time during any academic setting to teach "all" the good, bad, or ugly.  So we're necessarily talking about a selection of topics.  You seem to prefer a different set than you believe is currently taught in Florida schools.  That doesn't make your set any more or less "real" than anybody else's.

Wonder no more, it's quite simple to discuss both sides it actually helps the kids learn.

Both? There are only two sides?  How did we decide which two?  What happened to all the others?

Just to be sure that you understand that I'm not white, 99.44% American Indian

I knew that.  

nor liberal, more of a blue dog dem with some liberal ideas mixed in and actually have voted for republicans and worked on the Brian Sandavol gubernatorial race in NV and was invited to his inauguration.

I suspected something along those lines.  Although DeSantis seems to piss you off an inordinate amount for you to still be a centrist.

Now that I've cleared that up perhaps if white conservative understanding was more apparent then you wouldn't be getting beat over the head by white liberals. 

I actually wasn't referring to you.  

It would seem that the right is trying to legislate feelings, those that don't agree with theirs.

Absolutely.  That's the major problem with this law.  

What have other states done? Making it illegal to teach that boogyman called CRT?

I'm sorry, on the one hand, CRT defenders scream loudly and angrily that "nobody teaches CRT in K-12 schools", and on the other hand, they scream angrily and loudly when somebody tries to stop them doing it.   They're so obviously full of shit.

In Texas, the law reads like something Dr. King would have jumped up and cheered for.  You're not allowed to teach racist nonsense, including telling schoolchildren they're somehow responsible for shit that happened 150 years ago.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
PhD Quiet
4.2.9  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2.7    one week ago
The fact is racial minorities have been "otherized" and mistreated throughout US history. The evidence is not only voluminous, there have been hundreds of books written, with footnotes, on the general topic.  Its not at all a question of whether it happened , its a question of whether or not white parents want their kids to know such things. 

John, I've said (not really jokingly) that if they teach CRT as effectively as they teach everything else, nobody will learn it anyway.

I realize that given your preference, the history curriculum would not let a day go by without "denouncing" the evil deeds of white people, and we would incorporate that denouncing into math and science classes, as well.  Thankfully, more centrist, less emotional viewpoints will win out.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.2.10  JohnRussell  replied to  Jack_TX @4.2.9    one week ago

If kids are taught the truth eventually racism will go away.  If they are taught a 'centrist' viewpoint where talking about Columbus enslaving natives is not permitted because it makes white kids "feel bad" then racism will continue for a long time. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2.11  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @4.2.8    one week ago
It all still boils down to "your preferred set of stories", so no, it doesn't matter at all.

No, it doesn't boil down to ''your preferred set of stories''. I thought that I made that clear. 

There is not time during any academic setting to teach "all" the good, bad, or ugly.  So we're necessarily talking about a selection of topics.  You seem to prefer a different set than you believe is currently taught in Florida schools.  That doesn't make your set any more or less "real" than anybody else's.

I'm aware that there isn't time to teach ''all'' and it would be best to talk about a selection of topics. My set is real and if fact much more real than some of the nonsense that is being taught or the subjects that are being avoided. 

I'm sorry, on the one hand, CRT defenders scream loudly and angrily that "nobody teaches CRT in K-12 schools", and on the other hand, they scream angrily and loudly when somebody tries to stop them doing it.   They're so obviously full of shit.

Really, I wasn't aware of that, perhaps teaching it would be beneficial to all students. So perhaps they are not full of shit as you described.

In Texas, the law reads like something Dr. King would have jumped up and cheered for.  

 Are you aware of Dr. Kings position on Native Americans?

“Our nation was born in genocide when it embraced the doctrine that the original American, the Indian, was an inferior race. Even before there were large numbers of Negroes on our shore, the scar of racial hatred had already disfigured colonial society. From the sixteenth century forward, blood flowed in battles over racial supremacy. We are perhaps the only nation which tried as a matter of national policy to wipe out its indigenous population. Moreover, we elevated that tragic experience into a noble crusade. Indeed, even today we have not permitted ourselves to reject or feel remorse for this shameful episode. Our literature, our films, our drama, our folklore all exalt it. Our children are still taught to respect the violence which reduced a red-skinned people of an earlier culture into a few fragmented groups herded into impoverished reservations.”
You're not allowed to teach racist nonsense, including telling schoolchildren they're somehow responsible for shit that happened 150 years ago.

What racist nonsense, Jack? BTW no one that I know is telling white kids that they are responsible for what happened 150 years ago. Now let's take that one step further, much of it didn't happen 150 years ago but in our lifetime. The ''Tribal Termination Act'', 1953 and overturned in 1973. Indian Boarding schools from 1890 to the 1980s. That is where the US government in conjunction with Christan religious groups forced Indian children into both off-reservation ''boarding schools'' and on reservation ''schools'' under penalty of law if the parents didn't allow it. What is really ugly is what transpired at those so-called schools with the religious groups being some of the worst offenders.  There are many more racist things that transpired in your lifetime, Jack.

I suspected something along those lines.  Although DeSantis seems to piss you off an inordinate amount for you to still be a centrist.

No, still a centrist but DeSantis, IMO, is an opportunist and phony. His ''stop woke'' nonsense is just that. For someone that is supposed to believe in small government his actions are far from it. If he was a Democratic governor of Florida I would feel exactly the same way about him and his policies. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
4.2.12  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2.10    one week ago
f kids are taught the truth eventually racism will go away.

Yet you want to enflame racial divisions by emphasizing  racial identity.  How will teaching kids that  race is everyone's defining characteristic make racism go away? 

 they are taught a 'centrist' viewpoint where talking about Columbus enslaving natives 

Nothing wrong with teaching that. Nor is there anything wrong with teaching kids that natives were enslaving other natives  (and eating them) when Columbus arrived.  The ideas that kids are being taught a sanitized version of Columbus is laughable, the problem is they are being taught Columbus discovered some peaceful nirvana, as you helpfully demonstrated with the example of Zinn's text using carefully edited parts of Columbus's diary.  Byt taking out the parts describing cannibalism and tribal warfare and slaver,  Zinn  misleads kids about the reality of pre-Columbian life. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.2.13  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.2.12    one week ago

Young people are already more welcoming of racial diversity than older generations, even during an era you describe as "enflaming racial divisions". I guess the youth dont see it the same way you do. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
4.2.14  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2.13    one week ago
I guess the youth dont see it the same way you do. 

Race relations are much worse than they wore 20 years ago.  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.2.15  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.2.14    one week ago

I agree. White grievers are all worked up. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.2.16  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.2.12    one week ago

Did natives being cannibals lead to racism?  I must have missed that part. 

Talking about natives being cannibals does lead to racism though. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
4.2.17  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2.16    one week ago
Talking about natives being cannibals does lead to racism though. 

That says it all right there, doesn't it.? Got to erase the uncomfortable parts....

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.2.18  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.2.17    one week ago

it does say it all. it says that whites will use it an excuse to develop white supremacy

that is pretty much the history of the past hundreds of years

 
 
 
Jack_TX
PhD Quiet
4.2.19  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2.10    one week ago
If kids are taught the truth eventually racism will go away.

I'm not sure there is a more naive statement on the internet today.

  If they are taught a 'centrist' viewpoint where talking about Columbus enslaving natives is not permitted because it makes white kids "feel bad" then racism will continue for a long time. 

You want to drown everybody else in your private ocean of white liberal guilt.  We get it.  But most people aren't interested in going there.  

Most people would definitely be interested in improving the skills and economic prospects of poor Americans, which would heavily favor minorities.  But that's hard work and takes a long time.  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.2.20  JohnRussell  replied to  Jack_TX @4.2.19    one week ago

your "white liberal guilt" schitck is old and tired. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
PhD Quiet
4.2.21  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @4.2.11    one week ago
No, it doesn't boil down to ''your preferred set of stories''. I thought that I made that clear. 

You made it clear you disagree.  That doesn't mean you're correct.

I'm aware that there isn't time to teach ''all'' and it would be best to talk about a selection of topics.

"A selection of topics" is the only option.  There is a finite amount of time available for instruction.

My set is real and if fact much more real than some of the nonsense that is being taught or the subjects that are being avoided. 

So if our entire history curricula was centered around George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln and Dwight Eisenhower, that's "real".  All of those people were real.  The things they accomplished were real.  The effects we still enjoy today are very real.

Is it complete?  No.  But we've already established we don't have enough history class sessions to do "complete", so it's all simply a question of what we choose to include and exclude.  i.e. the preferred set of stories we want our kids to know.

Really, I wasn't aware of that, perhaps teaching it would be beneficial to all students. So perhaps they are not full of shit as you described.

They are far more full of shit than I described.  The Texas statute actually mandates instruction about:

  • The history of Native Americans
  • The writings of Ona Judge
  • Writings from Frederick Douglas
  • The Book of Negroes
  • The Fugitive Slave Acts of 1793 and 1850
  • The Indian Removal Act

Historical documents related to the civic accomplishments of marginalized populations, including (among others):

  • women's suffrage
  • the civil rights movement
  • The Snyder Act of 1924
  • Letter from a Birmingham Jail
  • The I Have A Dream Speech
  • The Emancipation Proclamation
  • the life and works of Cesar Chavez

That's now all mandatory, along with a bunch of other stuff I'm too lazy to type. That's all in the Texas "anti-CRT" law. 

You're also not allowed to teach that one race is better than another or that one person is responsible for shit other people in their race do.  Which should be obvious to reasonable human adults.    But because it's Texas and Greg Abbott, the looney left is convinced we're one step closer to the Handmaid's Tale.  

These people have lost their damned minds and are furious at anyone who refuses to join them.

Full Text of the Texas Law Restricting Classroom Talk on Racism (HB 3979) (edweek.org)

Are you aware of Dr. Kings position on Native Americans?

No, but it doesn't surprise me.  However I have learned something new today.  Thanks.

BTW no one that I know is telling white kids that they are responsible for what happened 150 years ago.

Well... sadly... it's happened in multiple districts in multiple states.  Teachers don't always behave professionally.  A quick Google search may surprise and sadden you. 

So if we agree it's wrong to teach a 10-year-old he's responsible for everybody else's problems, what's the objection to codifying that?

 The ''Tribal Termination Act'', 1953 and overturned in 1973. Indian Boarding schools from 1890 to the 1980s. That is where the US government in conjunction with Christan religious groups forced Indian children into both off-reservation ''boarding schools'' and on reservation ''schools'' under penalty of law if the parents didn't allow it. What is really ugly is what transpired at those so-called schools with the religious groups being some of the worst offenders.  There are many more racist things that transpired in your lifetime, Jack.

I'm sure there are.  I was 2 years old when redlining was outlawed.  7 years old when the Tribal Termination Act was overturned.  Jim Crow laws ended before I was born.  So yeah, that stuff happened and it shouldn't have.  I had zero to do with any of it, and a kid who is 10 years old today has even less hand in it.

Now, if you want to talk about concrete things we can do today to ensure minority Americans have the same opportunities as white Americans, I'm all ears.  But nobody wants to do that.  The wokesters lack the emotional maturity and the Trumpsters lack the intelligence.

So if we're just going to wring our hands about laws that went away half a century ago, I'm out. I have a limited number of shits to give, and I'm not wasting any on things I can't change. 

No, still a centrist but DeSantis, IMO, is an opportunist and phony. His ''stop woke'' nonsense is just that. 

Fair enough.  I'll definitely agree with "opportunist".  That immigration stunt was pure bullshit. You've seen him up close more than I have, so I'll defer to you and keep an eye out for 'phony'.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
PhD Quiet
4.2.22  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2.20    one week ago
your "white liberal guilt" schitck is old and tired. 

Not nearly as old or tired as your dedication to it.

Stop trying to ram it down everybody's throat and I'll stop calling you on it.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
PhD Quiet
4.2.23  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2.16    one week ago
Did natives being cannibals lead to racism?  I must have missed that part. 

It's an example of racism.  Unless of course they ate their own?  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.2.24  JohnRussell  replied to  Jack_TX @4.2.21    one week ago
I'm sure there are.  I was 2 years old when redlining was outlawed.  7 years old when the Tribal Termination Act was overturned.  Jim Crow laws ended before I was born.  So yeah, that stuff happened and it shouldn't have.  I had zero to do with any of it, and a kid who is 10 years old today has even less hand in it.

What hand does a 10 year old today have in any of the great things about America's past?  Are kids taught objectively about the past history of America? or are they taught to accept and revere the founding fathers, past presidents, various American heroes, our form of government, our notions of freedom, the constitution, etc etc?  Not that there is anything wrong with any of that, but 10 year olds today had no hand in any of that. But somehow it is wrong to give the other side of the story, when there is one? 

It is beyond dispute for people with half a brain that America has historically been a racist country. The documentation of this is overwhelming. But 10 year olds today will somehow be poisoned and be "lessened" in self esteem if these things are taught in school? There is no evidence of this. Its the parents and grandparents who dont like to be reminded of the past. 

file-20180130-107687-t4ua3z.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=1134&fit=crop&dpr=2R.846cc3039240cc81e3a0375f8d25e6e5?rik=HIFgn8400e2Fhg&riu=http%3a%2f%2f4.bp.blogspot.com%2f-9acYvkCIIU4%2fT9LtSDDvunI%2fAAAAAAAALH4%2flqiaM1LGNbU%2fs1600%2fschool%2bdesegregation.jpg&ehk=wKEIAncxQakcHUcAEglmOmXfUM28gdgqvIK4clpL%2b5g%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

OIP.LFlmwwZFYJGsRytWNJk0nAHaE6?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2.25  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @4.2.21    one week ago
You made it clear you disagree.  That doesn't mean you're correct.

Nor does it mean that you're correct.

"A selection of topics" is the only option.  There is a finite amount of time available for instruction''

Agreed, so those selections of topics teach all sides of it, which is something that isn't done.

So if our entire history curricula was centered around George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln and Dwight Eisenhower, that's "real".  All of those people were real.  The things they accomplished were real.  The effects we still enjoy today are very real.

Yes, they are and if we choose the above people then we should teach all sides and decisions of that person, that would be accurate history. For example, Eisenhower was the president that instituted the ''Tribal Termination Act'' which took 2.9 million acres of land and disenfranchised thousands of Indians, some tribes are fighting to this day to return the land and the recognition as sovereign nations. Or George Washington who is known as the ''village burner'' to NAs. If it wasn't for Polly Cooper and Shenandoah they may never have survived Valley Forge.  The effects of that are very real.

They are far more full of shit than I described.  The Texas statute actually mandates instruction about:
  • The history of Native Americans
  • The writings of Ona Judge
  • Writings from Frederick Douglas
  • The Book of Negroes
  • The Fugitive Slave Acts of 1793 and 1850
  • The Indian Removal Act
Historical documents related to the civic accomplishments of marginalized populations, including (among others):
  • women's suffrage
  • the civil rights movement
  • The Snyder Act of 1924
  • Letter from a Birmingham Jail
  • The I Have A Dream Speech
  • The Emancipation Proclamation
  • the life and works of Cesar Chavez
That's now all mandatory, along with a bunch of other stuff I'm too lazy to type. That's all in the Texas "anti-CRT" law. 

Is this law still in effect, it seems that the Texas legislature changed the rules. 

So if we agree it's wrong to teach a 10-year-old he's responsible for everybody else's problems, what's the objection to codifying that?

I don't see it as they are teaching the kid is responsible, and who codified it?

I'm sure there are.  I was 2 years old when redlining was outlawed.  7 years old when the Tribal Termination Act was overturned.  Jim Crow laws ended before I was born.  So yeah, that stuff happened and it shouldn't have.  I had zero to do with any of it, and a kid who is 10 years old today has even less hand in it.

And you are alive today when some of the things I mentioned re voting rights are taking place and you were not alive when Washington, Eisenhower et al were doing their ''good things'' but that is all you want to teach. Sounds like a bit of ''white washing'' history.

Now, if you want to talk about concrete things we can do today to ensure minority Americans have the same opportunities as white Americans, I'm all ears.  But nobody wants to do that.  The wokesters lack the emotional maturity and the Trumpsters lack the intelligence.

Actually, I do talk about it so that nobody wants to do it is what is referred to as ''sweeping generalization''. Native Americans have a totally different set of circumstances than other minorities in many ways and the first thing that would be extremely helpful is for the US government to actually follow their own laws that they passed regarding Indians and for the states to abide by those laws as well. We as a people spend millions of dollars and enormous amounts of time and capital fighting the ''system'' to protect what is ours by law.

As for doing concrete things, we as a people have many things going on to improve our status.

So if we're just going to wring our hands about laws that went away half a century ago, I'm out. I have a limited number of shits to give, and I'm not wasting any on things I can't change. 

That surely seems to be the case. 

Fair enough.  I'll definitely agree with "opportunist".  That immigration stunt was pure bullshit. You've seen him up close more than I have, so I'll defer to you and keep an eye out for 'phony'

I've pointed out in different articles on NT his phony bs. His latest is the ''Drag Queen'' laws where DeSantis own inspector said there were no lewd acts but they are being procecuted for just that.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
4.2.26  devangelical  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.2.17    one week ago
Got to erase the uncomfortable parts....

isn't that what they do at church?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
PhD Quiet
4.2.27  Jack_TX  replied to  Kavika @4.2.25    6 days ago
Agreed, so those selections of topics teach all sides of it, which is something that isn't done

Well at least we've expanded from two sides to (ostensibly) some number more than two.  That's progress. 

Who determines those "sides"?  Who determines who gets to speak for all of those "sides"? 

Yes, they are and if we choose the above people then we should teach all sides and decisions of that person, that would be accurate history. For example, Eisenhower was the president that instituted the ''Tribal Termination Act'' which took 2.9 million acres of land and disenfranchised thousands of Indians, some tribes are fighting to this day to return the land and the recognition as sovereign nations.

To use your example here, it might be important to remember that Ike was president for 8 years.  There is an entire presidential library devoted to his life and term in office.  Yet you keep talking about teaching "all sides"  and "all decisions".  You seem to keep missing the idea that, eventually, the kids have to go to other classes.  In most states, you have about 150 hours of classroom time per subject per school year.  How much of a presidential library do you think you can cover in that time?  

That doesn't mention Lincoln.  Or Jefferson.  Or Reagan.  Or the Federalist Papers.  Or the Constitution.  (We've apparently stopped teaching the Declaration of Independence because I quoted it here a week or so ago and 5 people on this forum didn't recognize it.)  We haven't even scratched the Dust Bowl, the Great Depression, Pearl Harbor, the Monroe Doctrine, Harriet Tubman, Fat Man and Little Boy, John D Rockefeller, the gold rush of 1849, the Bay of Pigs or the Cold War.   Vietnam will just have to wait until they can watch "Platoon" or "Forrest Gump". 

Is this law still in effect, it seems that the Texas legislature changed the rules.

It is. The Senate bill in the article you seeded was altered before it passed.

I don't see it as they are teaching the kid is responsible, and who codified it?

No... we codified a rule against teaching that these kids are somehow responsible.  Because that was happening.

His latest is the ''Drag Queen'' laws where DeSantis own inspector said there were no lewd acts but they are being procecuted for just that.

Meh.  If you think it is appropriate for a 4-year-old girl to be led around a bar by a drag queen with his ass and fake tits hanging out, you and I have a wildly differing definition of "centrist".  WTF are we even talking about here?  There isn't any defense for that bullshit.  The drag show has a children's menu, FFS.  How far gone are these people?

Several liberals here on NT have convinced themselves that this issue will come back to haunt him politically.  That's exactly the opposite of reality.  "Keeping 4-year-olds out of drag shows" wins him a couple of swing states all by itself.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
PhD Quiet
4.2.28  Jack_TX  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2.24    6 days ago
But somehow it is wrong to give the other side of the story, when there is one? 

It wouldn't be. 

But we all know that's not what you want.

We all know you won't stop there, John. We all know, because we've seen your posts, that you absolutely cannot stop yourself shaming and blaming, and then embracing whatever nonsense assuages that white liberal guilt you don't like to talk about.

You have zero desire to teach "both sides".  Even the fact that you think there are only two gives you away.  There is your side, and then there is anything else.  You proclaim frequently that anybody who doesn't believe as you do is evil.  It's a religious zealotry the Spanish Inquisition would have envied. 

Do you really imagine anybody is naive enough to believe you have any interest in objectivity?  You would never be happy until the entire history curriculum is simply one continuous racist parade of anti-white condemnation.  

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.2.29  seeder  Kavika   replied to  Jack_TX @4.2.27    6 days ago
Well at least we've expanded from two sides to (ostensibly) some number more than two.  That's progress. 

I don't see it as progress since I didn't state any specific number.

Who determines those "sides"?  Who determines who gets to speak for all of those "sides"? 

The teacher of course. It seems that they are the best equipped for it and it's their job. I'm not using ''sides'' as a debate but as ''presenting'' both sides of the person or decision. 

To use your example here, it might be important to remember that Ike was president for 8 years.  There is an entire presidential library devoted to his life and term in office.  Yet you keep talking about teaching "all sides"  and "all decisions".  You seem to keep missing the idea that, eventually, the kids have to go to other classes.  In most states, you have about 150 hours of classroom time per subject per school year.  How much of a presidential library do you think you can cover in that time?  

I was alive for all 8 years of Eisenhower's presidency and I'm well aware that there is a presidential library for Eisenhower. I'm also aware of the time kids and teachers have in the classroom. As for teaching ''all sides'' and ''all decisions'' Do you think it's wrong or not valuable to present both sides of a decision and allow the students to digest it and debate it? That is what I thought that school was for.

That doesn't mention Lincoln.  Or Jefferson.  Or Reagan.  Or the Federalist Papers.  Or the Constitution.  (We've apparently stopped teaching the Declaration of Independence because I quoted it here a week or so ago and 5 people on this forum didn't recognize it.)  We haven't even scratched the Dust Bowl, the Great Depression, Pearl Harbor, the Monroe Doctrine, Harriet Tubman, Fat Man and Little Boy, John D Rockefeller, the gold rush of 1849, the Bay of Pigs or the Cold War.   Vietnam will just have to wait until they can watch "Platoon" or "Forrest Gump". 

There are a lot of things that are not covered in K-12 that does not mean that it isn't important or worthwhile teaching. Actually, I've given some presentations on Vietnam and also on NA history to school kids in the 12th grade and also at the college level.

It is. The Senate bill in the article you seeded was altered before it passed.

That's a good thing. 

Meh.  If you think it is appropriate for a 4-year-old girl to be led around a bar by a drag queen with his ass and fake tits hanging out, you and I have a wildly differing definition of "centrist".  WTF are we even talking about here?  There isn't any defense for that bullshit.  The drag show has a children's menu, FFS.  How far gone are these people?

I think that you should re-read my comment. In no way did I approve of 4-year-old being at a Drag Queen show. I spoke directly to the fact that there were no ''lewd'' acts as reported by the person that DeSantis sent to review the show and that they were still being prosecuted for ''lewd'' acts. That is the phony BS. If they are going to be prosecuted then do it for the right crime. 

Several liberals here on NT have convinced themselves that this issue will come back to haunt him politically.  That's exactly the opposite of reality.  "Keeping 4-year-olds out of drag shows" wins him a couple of swing states all by itself.

There are a lot of things that I believe will come back to haunt DeSantis, this is probably not one of them. 

(We've apparently stopped teaching the Declaration of Independence because I quoted it here a week or so ago and 5 people on this forum didn't recognize it.) 

I've always found this passage from the Declaration of Independence most ''interesting''.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

Waanakiwin

(Peace)

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5  devangelical    one week ago

I can hardly wait for the cheeto and guido show to open up a crate of political ugliness in florida.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
5.1  seeder  Kavika   replied to  devangelical @5    one week ago

It will be quite entertaining, time to get out the popcorn.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.1.1  devangelical  replied to  Kavika @5.1    one week ago

fascist vs fascist for control of the maga sewage in the GOP...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @5.1.1    6 days ago
fascist vs fascist for control of the maga sewage in the GOP...

A true liberal wishlist!

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
5.1.3  devangelical  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.2    6 days ago

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @5.1.3    6 days ago

Advice you should heed instead of going off the deep end and endlessly droning on about fascism and the other useless crap being spewed by armchair keyboard warriors.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
6  JBB    6 days ago

Sorry, I cannot take this anti-woke shit seriously...

How dumb is the gop thinking people are stupid?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
6.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @6    6 days ago

Dr. King spoke of staying awake during revolution and not sleeping, he didn’t realize that the term was woke, not awake.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
7  seeder  Kavika     6 days ago

The article has been up for 5 days. Time to shut it down.

 
 

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