Ideological rot
The recent attack on Israel has given us all a chance to see two things that existed in front of our eyes but had long been minimalized:
1) the savagery & brutality of Hamas
2) the teaching that Palestinians were victims & Israel was an oppressor in American universities.
In the past few days we have seen protests in favor of the Palestinians at five universities:
Harvard University
"More than 30 student groups at Harvard signed a statement blaming Israel for the violence.
The students "hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence," said the statement, issued by the Harvard Palestine Solidarity Groups.
Saturday's attack "did not occur in a vacuum," the letter said. "For the last two decades, millions of Palestinians in Gaza have been forced to live in an open-air prison."
Indiana University
The Palestinian Solidarity Committee announced a peaceful counterprotest at the same time supporters of Israel were rallying on the Indiana campus in Bloomington on Monday.
The two groups waved their flags and yelled at each other for about 20 minutes while separated by a police line, according to the Indiana Daily Student newspaper.
"We just stand for peace, it's an emotional conflict," a member of the Palestinian Solidarity Committee at the university told the newspaper.
"We don't represent Hamas, and we don't condone the actions of Hamas. But we also don't condone the actions of the Israeli military. We do not want to see Palestinian children or Israeli children killed in this siege. It is a tragic event, and we hope things deescalate as soon as they can."
Arizona State University
The group Students for Justice in Palestine at Arizona State University held a meeting on Sunday.
In a post on Instagram , the group said the event in Tempe Beach Park was used to "learn about the Palestinian liberation struggle against the U.S. and Israeli war machine."
A rally is planned for Thursday outside the college's student union.
California State University Long Beach
Dozens of students from the university attended a rally in support of Palestinians on Tuesday.
They gathered on the campus quad, then marched through campus chanting "Free Palestine" and "Occupation is a crime," the Long Beach Post reported.
Multiple student clubs at the university, including the La F.U.E.R.Z.A Student Association, promoted the protest on social media.
They sparked a backlash for a flyer that featured a paraglider—Hamas employed paragliders to get some militants over the border between Gaza and southern Israel.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
The UNC Students for Justice in Palestine group has used a similar flyer to promote a protest on the campus on Thursday.
The rally will take place in front of the Wilson Library at 11 a.m., according to a post on the group's Instagram page.
Full List of US Universities Staging Pro-Palestinian Protests (msn.com)
This is why the graduates are far less educated than the Alumni. The left is also in a very embarrassing position as the anti-Semitism that has existed by so many of its supporters is now evident. We heard from the squad members and even the WH press secretary who doesn't answer questions was forced to condemn them. For the rest of us, it is time to wake up to the reality of what is being taught at American universities.
Meanwhile:
In Chicago's loop hundreds marched for the Palestinian cause:
"People here in Chicago also voiced their concerns on Wednesday about the plight of the Palestinians at a downtown rally along busy Michigan Avenue.
The Chicago Coalition for Justice in Palestine organized the march to protest what the group called "war crimes" by Israel against Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
With Palestinian flags waving high and youngsters holstering the flag low, hundreds came out to speak out against what they call the massacre and war crimes committed by the Israeli military."
Pro-Palestinian group marches in Chicago's Loop (msn.com)
In Michigan it was much the same:
Hundreds gathered in a theater in Dearborn, Michigan, on Tuesday night to share their support for the Palestinian cause and condemn the Israeli government.
Palestinian militants fighting for Hamas stormed into Israel on Saturday, killing over 1,000 people and taking dozens hostage in a multi-pronged offensive. Hamas said the attack was retribution for worsening conditions for Palestinians under Israeli occupation.
Michigan Rally Sees Hundreds of Pro-Palestinian Supporters Condemn Israel (msn.com)
It has been like turning over a rock and finding all kinds of hideous little monsters. The responses by the administrations of these colleges have been incredibly weak.
The only bright spot is that the American people got to see this up close and for rational human beings there is no moral equivalence between the terrorists and the democratic government of Israel.
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The big test for Joe Biden and the leftist media will come when Israel begins its offensive in Gaza and the casualties begin to mount. That is when everyone including the US has pressured Israel to stand down in the past. This time is much different.
What is your solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ?
The same as John Bolton's:
John Bolton , the former national security adviser to former president Donald Trump , called for "regime change" in Iran on Sunday following reports of the country's support and involvement in the Saturday Hamas terrorist attacks in Israel .
Former Trump adviser Bolton calls for Iran 'regime change' after Israel terror attack (msn.com)
As far as the Palestinians are concerned:
THEY HAD MANY CHANCES!
Why do you think it's solvable?
You think "regime change " in Iran will solve the "Israeli -Palestinian conflict" ? Thats hilarious.
The Palestinians are to be ignored. The problem in the Middle East now is that behemoth that Obama created: Iran!
To do what? Accept second class citizenship?
I'm sure Iran is a problem but its not the "Palestinian - Israeli " problem.
To have their two-state solution. They chose to eliminate the state of Israel every time.
How do you want me to say it?
I guess you haven't heard. Those days are over. Peace has been achieved between Israel and other Arab nations. It is no longer about satisfying the Palestinians.
As they say in one of Boston's hoods: "They done fucked up."
You keep saying that, why don't you actually prove it. What legal rights would they not have that other Israeli citizens do have?
Both sides sabotaged two state solutions.
If I ruled the world I would create a North Korea- South Korea type set up in Israel. Geographically separate states divided by a DMZ . Both sides could station troops at the border and there would be no intercourse between them.
Of course, at this stage of the game the Palestinians have no economic engine of their own. It would have to be created and would take probably hundreds of billions of dollars of outside investment.
Is there a two state solution proposed by Israel that gives the Palestinians any of the good land in the country? I dont recall seeing one but maybe I missed it.
www.theguardian.com /books/2021/dec/19/the-state-of-israel-vs-the-jews-review-sylvain-cypel
The State of Israel vs The Jews review: fierce indictment of a rightward lurch
Charles Kaiser 6-7 minutes 12/19/2021
S ylvain Cypel’s new book is a violent indictment of the Jewish homeland, its growing embrace of apartheid and its closeness to some of the worst autocratic and similarly ethnocentric regimes around the world, including Hungary, Brazil and the Philippines.
The author is a prominent French newspaper editor and foreign correspondent who lived in Israel for 12 years, trained there to be a youth movement leader and even served in a paratroop brigade after being drafted.
Cypel writes with the passion of the convert: someone who believes he has been betrayed by the faith in which he was raised. His father was also a journalist, the editor of France’s Yiddish-language daily, Unzer Wort, and the main leader of labor Zionism in France for a quarter of a century. Cypel was very close to his father, but Zionism ultimately became the “unbridgeable hiatus” between them.
“It had been his whole life and it was mine no longer,” he writes.
Cypel argues that the country originally seen as an embattled David menaced by a constellation of Goliaths has evolved since the six-day war , into something “no idealist could stomach: a racist, bullying little superpower”.
His accusations carry particular power because of the nationality of his sources: nearly all are Israeli journalists, intellectuals and activists. But there is a paradox which Cypel mostly glides over: the provenance of all this criticism is also potent evidence of the continuing vitality of Israeli democracy. It would be impossible to write a book like this, relying almost entirely on the testimony of resident citizens and especially journalists, about Saudi Arabia, Egypt or even Jordan.
That’s one reason why Israel’s supporters still describe it as the only democracy in the Middle East – a description Cypel rejects.
Although the accusation of apartheid has gained much more currency in the last couple of years, it was almost 20 years ago when Cypel first heard the case for it. It came in an interview he conducted with Michael Ben-Yair , who was Israel’s attorney general in Yitzhak Rabin’s second government. Ben-Yair believed the essential tenet of Zionism had been violated.
“The object of Zionist thinking was never the domination of another people,” he said.
“We are committing crimes that fly in the face of international law and public morality. The moment a power establishes two different legal systems, one democratic and liberal, and the other repressive and cruel, that’s where apartheid starts … Where an army defends the property of the one and destroys that of the other … there is no other term to define the situation except apartheid.”
Cypel begins his prosecution by quoting an assortment of headlines from a six-month period in 2018 and 2019:
Israeli border policewoman arrested on suspicion of shooting Palestinian for fun
Israel said a Palestinian was killed in clashes. A video shows he was shot in the back
The disabled Palestinian slowly walked away. Then Israeli troops shot him in the back of the head
After shooting a Palestinian teen, Israeli troops dragged him around – and chased an ambulance away
The headlines are bolstered by horrific statistics. Yesh Din , a human rights organization, studied 1,163 complaints to police from Palestinians who said they were victims of violence by settlers. During the 12 years that were examined, the share of complaints referred for prosecution was 1.9%; 91% of the investigations were closed without charges being brought. Out of 1,163 complaints, three went to trial.
Amira Hass , a West Bank correspondent for Haaretz, wrote that by systematically shooting “young unarmed Gazans … Israel is conducting a mass psychological experiment in Gaza”. But the “guinea pigs are actually the Israelis. How far will their society go in its acquiescence? The experiment is about compliance and cruelty.”
Hass compared the process to the notorious Stanley Milgram experiments conducted at Yale in the early 1960s, when subjects were asked to press a button that sent increasingly powerful electric shocks to a person each time he or she gave the wrong answer to a question.
All of these anecdotes explain Cypel’s relentless pessimism about Israel, which he calls “a society blindly turning inward as it drifts toward disaster”.
“Israel seems to have no sense of what within it could avert that disaster, or who would do it,” he writes. “Does Jewish society have what it takes to resist the current that is carrying it? The answer has to be no.”
Cypel’s book is also replete with the voices of virtuous Israelis who remain determined to put their country on a different course. But while the “ultras” who dream of expelling every Arab “aren’t yet dominant in Israeli society”, he writes, “they are its most determined segment”.
In a long section about the Jewish diaspora, Cypel points out that Israel’s lurch to the right has produced a growing gap with the liberal traditions of American Jews in the Reform movement. No one has written more powerfully on this subject than Daniel Boyarin , a scholar of the Talmud at Berkeley who has described the piercing pain of watching the Jewish tradition “disintegrating before my eyes”.
“It has been said by many Christians that Christianity died at Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Sobidor,” Boyarin wrote. “I fear – God forbid – that my Judaism may be dying at Nablus, Dheisheh, Betein or El Khalil.”
Cypel says those words were “considered blasphemous” when they were written, in 2006.
“But more and more American Jews agree with them today.”
You already had that:
On September 12, 2005, Israel completed its unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip, as the last IDF soldiers left the coastal area after 38 years of Israeli presence.
The disengagement plan was put forward by then prime minister Ariel Sharon to "lead to a better security , political, economic and demographic situation," according to the text of the plan. Sharon hoped that the plan would reduce friction with the growing Palestinian population in the Strip.
Over 9,000 Israeli citizens living in 25 settlements were evicted from the Gaza Strip and northern Samaria in the West Bank as part of the plan, with Israel withdrawing all of its forces from Gaza and redeploying along new deployment lines.
On this day in 2005: Israel completes disengagement from the Gaza Strip - Israel News - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com)
Of course, at this stage of the game the Palestinians have no economic engine of their own. It would have to be created and would take probably hundreds of billions of dollars of outside investment.
Maybe Biden will have US taxpayers support them. As it stands:
Secretary of State Antony Blinken said the US plans included $75m in economic and development assistance in the West Bank and Gaza, $10m for peacebuilding programmes through the US Agency for International Development (USAid), and $150m in humanitarian assistance for the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (Unrwa).
The US will also resume security assistance programmes with the Palestinians.
The funding is in addition to the $15m in assistance to address the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic and food insecurity in the West Bank and Gaza that the US announced last month.
"US foreign assistance for the Palestinian people serves important US interests and values," Mr Blinken said. "It provides critical relief to those in great need, fosters economic development, and supports Israeli-Palestinian understanding, security co-ordination and stability. It also aligns with the values and interests of our allies and partners.
Biden administration to restore $235m in US aid to Palestinians - BBC News
Is there a two state solution proposed by Israel that gives the Palestinians any of the good land in the country?
Give them the good land? Listen to yourself.
Fuck the Palestinians.
You simply don't get it, do you? What would it take to convince you that the Palestinians don't want a two state solution?
Yes John, you missed it.
The Palestinians turned down offers of at least 92% and then 97% of their demands, and I'm sure that last offer gave them the land they wanted.
Yet once again you fail to answer the question. What legal rights would Palestinian citizens not have that Jewish citizens do have?
The next time Palestine gets a good offer like they did in the past they might want to take it.
Most recently "Human Rights Watch" was condemning Israel, as usual:
Human Rights Watch in Israel and Palestine criticized the Israeli defense minister's call Monday for a "complete siege" of Gaza as a form of "collective punishment" and a "war crime.”
Omar Shakir, the director of Human Rights Watch in Israel and Palestine, called the comments by Defense Minister Yoav Gallant "abhorrent" and accused Israel of using starvation as "a weapon of war."
Omar, in a phone call with CNN on Monday, emphasized the risks to the 2.2 million Palestinians living under Israel's prolonged closure in Gaza and called for the International Criminal Court to intervene.
In a statement posted to the Human Rights Watch website , Shakir also condemned the Hamas attacks on Israeli communities. saying the "deliberate targeting of civilians, indiscriminate attacks, and taking of civilians as hostages" also "amount to war crimes under international humanitarian law"
At least 900 Israelis were killed in the Hamas attacks, according to Israeli Army radio, while Gaza authorities have reported at least 687 fatalities in the enclave.
(12) Human Rights Watch criticizes both Israel and Palestinian for unlawful violations (cnn.com)
Sorry, John, there is no moral equivalency between those two things.
Isn't the Director of "Human Rights Watch," Omar Shakir? The same guy that defended the Guantanamo detainees?
They should.
Palestinians are second class citizens in the West Bank. Do some research.
Looks like they should have made the deal when offered and they are living with the decision not to. I know being held responsible for choices you make isn't understood by some on the left but there it is anyway.
Wow, definitely not someone with an ax to grind. sigh
Again, what fucking legal rights do they not have? I'm not asking about bigotry or bias, I'm asking for actual legal rights. Can you answer that or are you just a one trick pony?
But I can't blame Israel for not trusting them at this point. That will take time and a shift of what Gaza is doing. Starting by acknowledging Israel's right to exist would be a good start. The ball is in their court and unfortunately they have shown no ability to dribble.
Thank you Sir.
[removed] [.] Second class status is not specifically or entirely related to legal status. Palestinians have the legal "right" to file complaints about mistreatment from the Israeli police, military, and settlers. Those complaints almost always go into the circular filing cabinet.
Palestinian neighborhoods have been bulldozed to make way for Israeli settlements on that land. This is perfectly legal because the Israeli government declares it so. Is it right?
It's only been going on for 5000 years. We still have a chance to nip it in the bud.
Death wishing? How mature of you.
And of course you have real proof that the government officials under official policy ignore complaints from Palestinians. You can prove that the Palestinian homes demolished were built legally with all the proper permits?
Your constant arguing here cements your position as pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli. You don't have a centrist bone in your body.
I hardly meant it literally. But if it offends you, I will change it to "get lost".
Yes, everyone who has wrote about these things over years and years are imagining things . Carry on.
So again, no proof. Just the repeating of others without even the citation as to the accuracy of what was said and that person's bias. You continue to prove that last line in 1.1.29 so well.
Maybe you should just go back to bashing Trump.
Look into the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. It is a mainstream , albeit, liberal daily newspaper that regularly discusses the West Bank and what happens there.
Look into the group Breaking The Silence
That behemoth as you call it came to life in 1979 when Obama was all of 19.
After the creation of Israel, Jordon administered the West Bank. All Palestinians there received Jordanian citizenship and the same rights as those on the East Bank. Jordan created the same number of Parliamentary seats for both areas. The populations were roughly equal then. They did this even after a Palestinian assassinated King Abdullah.
After the 1967 War, Israel took control of the West Bank. Jordan continued to recognize Jordanian citizenship and Parliamentary representation of those living there. lost control of the West Bank to Israel. Things started going south several years later when the PLO (then Black September) started fighting the Jordanian military.
Palestinians have a long history of screwing the pooch.
So stupid it is almost funny. The behemoth was pre-existing. Didn't Ronnie-ray-gun send them missiles?
Amongst all the fucked up things we have done in the name of foreign policy, [Deleted]
Iran did not become the power that it is today, on the verge of having nuclear weapons, until Barack Obama made them so. At one time they were a regional power and an ally to the US, however another democrat, Jimmy Carter, misinterpreted a revolt to be one of the Iranian people and ordered the CIA to stop paying the mullahs while never lifting a finger to help our ally the Shah of Iran.
It is now imperative that Iran be taken down before it develops a nuclear weapon.
And you complain about revisionism ... too funny.
History can be revised in two ways.
We are always learning things we didn't know; thus, it can be like an unfinished portrait. On the other hand, there is ideology, which erases or obscures the truth. It is the latter that concerns me.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn once said: If we don't know our own history, then we simply will have to endure all of the same mistakes, all of the same sacrifices, all of the same absurdities over again - times ten.
Really!?! ... and your's is the ideology that writes the real history? All ideologies spoil the view Vic ... mine, yours and even Solzhenitsyn's. Dump the hubris, it's highly unattractive.
There is no room for ideology when it comes to history.
As a human construct ideologies impregnate all of history. All of the 15,000 published histories of Abraham Lincoln are colored by them.
So, you believe that everyone has an ideology?
Comes with the Bris.
Arab citizens of Israel have the right to vote and they have representatives in parliament.
(Ironically, they would not have this right in most Arab countries-- yes if these so-called "Palestinians now iiving in Israel were to to move most {all?} Arab countries they would indeed have second class citizenship-- for starters, they would not be allowed to vote).
The Gazans are suffering.
But who, exactly, does BtS claim is occupying Gaza?
And for that matter John-- who do you think is occupying Gaza?
Exactly!
Before Obama, there was no problem with iran, or the so-called "Palestinians"
To cite but one example, from the time the Jews got their country back (1948) up until the election of Obama, there was nothing but peace in the region.
In fact there wasn't even a single terror attack on Israel until the eve of Obama's inauguration!
Before Obama, there was no problem with iran, or the so-called "Palestinians"
To cite but one example, from the time the Jews got their country back (1948) up until the election of Obama, there was nothing but peace in the region.
Yo!:
I have a great idea!
Does anyone here want to join me in an effort to convince everyone that when Obama won-- the election was stolen?
You know-- those damn voting machines which were controlled by the Mafia in Italy and those Jewish Space Lazers!
(We might even be able to get some powerful allies-- for example, Mike "Macho-man" Lindell!)
During WWII< Nazi Germany (actually then and their ally Japan) was hugely more powerful than Hamas, And in addition they were technologically much more advanced.
In addition, a major potential ally was very aniti-war and wanted to remain neutral (until Peal Harbor)>
And the war dragged on for years. At one point before the American entry it looked like it might be impossible to stop the Axis powers. There was not a solution to thsat problem either.
Yet somehos we found a way to "solve" that problem.
So if there was a solution to that much bigger problem surely we can find a solution to the much tinier problem of defeating Hamas.
(Perhaps we could learn a lot studying how a solution was found in WWII?)
And by "Barack Obama", we mean "Pakistan".
Assuming they don't already have one.
No, we mean Barak Obama:
"The Obama administration’s vision saw an empowered Iran as a fulcrum to force action from Israel on the Palestinian question.
Thus the Iran deal, which set the mullahs on the path toward nuclear breakout and regional hegemony they are now speeding down.
Thus Obama’s support of political Islam elsewhere — be it the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt or Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Turkey — and his cession of Syria to Vladimir Putin.
Obama’s White House marketed this as “realism.”
It was no such thing but rather part of a pernicious and (as we have now seen) wantonly destructive radical idealism that blamed America and her allies, like Israel, for all global suffering. "
Barack Obama's silent on Israel war because he made it possible (nypost.com)
You do know that at one time Iran was America's close partner in the middle east?
It was another democrat who blew that up.
No. Most people don't have them.
As it should because the version promoted by your commentary is woefully incomplete and stilted, and somehow you cannot comprehend the verse which you quote because it tells you to look for more truth, not bend the truths that you do not want to hear till their contortions fit the version you want to believe.
Complete and utter bullshit.
Obama had a deal to stop the enrichment of uranium, had inspectors on the ground who were capable of determining if Iran was violating the agreement. If anyone had anything to do with Iran having a nuclear weapon it was Trump, who pulled out of the agreement. As far as I can tell, the only rationale behind leaving everyone else who was also in the agreement dangling was because the Obama administration made the agreement and to piss all of the other nations off. Oh, yeah, and something about how Trump would perform a magic trick and pull a better deal out of his ass. Well, here we are, no deal, because no better deal was available and now no deal is anywhere within reach.
Foreign policy and history definitely aren't your strengths.
Let's start with the annihilation of Hamas and then go from there. You can't negotiate with terrorists, and that is who 'represents' Palestinians.
Look into the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. It is a mainstream ,
What a load of total horseshit!
Haaretz is a far left rag that mainly has articles attacking the Israeli government and often borders on the anti-Semitic!
And how do suggest that be done?
Via negotiations?
Or having the U.S. attack and attempt to conquer Iran?
I choose the latter.
The Iran Deal which Barack Obama dared not let Congress vote on, knowing that even democrats would be against it, was a horrible deal from the very beginning. It began by giving Iran the right to enrich. It allowed Iran to construct the Arak Plutonium reactor, while IAEA inspectors were only allowed to look at certain locations. It also had a "sunset clause," which meant there was a time limit, after which, Iran could speed up their nuclear program at will and produce as much enriched uranium as they wanted. Iran also had an intercontinental ballistic missile program, which was not subject to the "deal." ICBMs only have one purpose and that is to carry a nuclear warhead.
So why would an American president want to put nuclear weapons in the hands of a radical Islamist regime?
My guess would be to counterbalance and pressure Israel into making concessions to the Palestinians. Since then, Iran has been the leading state sponsor of terrorism.
Any kind of knowledge is definitely not your strength.
They could only enrich to a certain level not usable for nuclear weapons but able to be used in nuclear reactors to produce energy. While not optimal, it was keeping the military in Iran from achieving a nuclear weapon. Trump, through balderdash and bluster, terminated the agreement, thereby worsening relations with the EU and Iran.
Other countries do exist on this earth and we do have to deal with them.
Especially when they make it up as they go along.
Of course you do!
Blatant lie.
Obama made a deal with Iran so we could, whenever we wanted, inspect to see if they were building nukes. TRUMP, ripped the deal up, now we have no way of knowing what they are doing. And all because trump didn't like Obama. Pretty fucking petty, honestly. But hey, trump has an ego to protect. What an epic fucking bottom feeder.
Wow, you believed the lies!
Amazing!
Are you forgetting that Iran repeatedly refused inspectors access?????
Or conveniently leaving that part out to make it seem as if Obama accomplished something?
Iran’s parliament on Tuesday approved a bill that would suspend U.N. inspections of its nuclear facilities and require the government to boost its uranium enrichment if European signatories to the 2015 nuclear deal do not provide relief from oil and banking sanctions.
Iran's parliament approves bill to stop nuclear inspections | AP News
Tell me some more tall tales of inspections-on-demand !!
I don't know if you saw President Biden's recent statement re: the sitauation. (I watched the whole thing,,although actually is wasn't all that long).
I was sruprised. Not by his strong support for Israel. But rather by its intensity. (None of that "there are good people on both sides" stuff).
Would anyone here who has not seen Biden's speech care to comment on it?
(Curious minds want to know).
How much longer before Biden advises Israel to “seek a ceasefire?"
And let's not forget-- in addition to Israel casualties and Arab casualties, since Gaza is so "densely populated" its inevitable that casualties will also mount amongst foreign hostages.
How would that effect support for the terrorists amongst foreigners?
Amongst people on college campuses?
Israel is giving them 24 hours to evacuate. What other nation would do that?
How would that effect support for the terrorists amongst foreigners?
There will be no change in the middle east. Iran will keep trying to destroy Israel and none of the Arab states want the Palestinians. Foreigners outside the middle east know the dangers of the terrorists. In the US the issue is divided between the radical left, now in power and the traditional Americans who are sympathetic to Israel.
Amongst people on college campuses?
The dumbed downed indoctrinated fools will continue to back the enemies of Israel. I heard a student of a NY university today say that she didn't believe the stories of babies being decapitated. It is really a disgrace that higher education in the US has hit such a low level.
Morning Michael...the opinion here is more or less if you go to these hot spot areas around the world you have to expect trouble... bombs, shellings, kidnapping, death and destruction...I certainly did when I went to Israel in 1985...
Here there are always government warnings on places in the Middle East, parts of Africa, Russia etc...and if you want to go there so be it.
And you always get the ones bleating the government should do something here when things go wrong...that one always amuses me...
We are 15,000 kilometres away for god sake so what exactly do you want us to do and instantly by the way they demand...I certainly didn't expect my government to come rushing to my aid if I got myself into trouble...
Yes Aussies were killed in Israel not sure if any have been taken hostage but at the end of the day it will come down to the "greater good" and we all know it...once Israel rolls there will be no stopping for who or what.
I think any rational thinking person would hold Hamas at fault for taking the hostages and starting this whole mess...
And yes while people were dancing and celebrating in the streets in Gaza with their short term gain. Obviously they seemed to think it was a good idea at the time.
Well now I hope they dance in the streets to celebrate their long term pain as reality bites . ...and what pain it will be brought on by the minority Hamas to stuff it up for the majority of people who live in Gaza...
One thing I have noticed is Iran is very quiet at the moment on the situation in Gaza... people in Gaza need to learn to bite the hand of Iran that feeds it if they ever want peace....
Morning Michael...the opinion here is more or less if you go to these hot spot areas around the world you have to expect trouble... bombs, shellings, kidnapping, death and destruction...I certainly did when I went to Israel in 1985...
G'day shona. (Just practicing my Australian accent
)
There have been so many wars, I am trying to remember which one was 1985. Was that ther one involving Lebanon?
Did you experience any wars-- or terrorism in the area when you were there?
I've been to Israel several times. The first time I went there I spent some time living on an agricultural kibbutz just west of Beersheva (sort of the beginning of the desert). IIRC it was actually about a year before a war so things were pretty quiet.
In a later trip it was after Israel and Egypt made peace, so I was able to fly to Egypt, did some tourism, flew back to Israel.
Evening Michael..yes there was a stoush on at the time with Lebanon not so much a war...it was the first time I really saw an army helicopter bristling with guns, rockets etc and flying over head..I snuck a photo as I wasn't sure if I was allowed...
At night I was sitting in the window of my hotel about 10 stories up and couldn't work out what all these lights were nearby...it was a landing area for the helicopter's bringing in the wounded...yet during the day you wouldn't know it was there...
I went to Beersheba as Australia has a very strong connection there from WW1...the charge of the light horse brigade took place and we fought and over ran the Turks...it was the last Calvary charge in history..
No I didn't see any terrorism when I was in Israel but certainly had my wits about me.. found it rather fascinating that groups of soldiers would be standing in the middle of no where and people in cars would stop ask here they were going to and give them a lift etc...then it was the way many of them got around.
I went into Egypt from Israel had a hard time from the border guards for being in Israel...only stayed there four days just wanted to see the pyramids and get out... spent three weeks in Israel and loved it..
This article pretty much sums it up.... those that don't condemn the actions of Hamas are in fact supporters of their savagery.
Terrorists Supporting Terrorists (townhall.com)
If someone says that someone who is "pro-Palestinian" is by default anti-semitic that is the same thing as saying this is a religious or racial war.
In reality it is possible to be both "pro-Palestinian" and at the same time be not at all anti-semitic.
Depends on the Palestinian. If that Palestinian shares the goals of Hamas, then they're anti-semitic, which is kind of stupid, because they're all semitic. Better to come up with something less confusing, like Jew haters or something.
Besides, the Jews have as much a claim to that land as anyone and certainly an older claim. In fact, Palestine was majority Christian when the Muslims moved in so Christians have an older claim, too. The only reason they weren't violently subjugated when the Muslims took over was that,rather than fight, they agreed to pay their non-Muslim tax. Long story short, the Muslims did to those people what they claim Jews did to them. They were second class citizens. Everything they blame Jews for, they did themselves to others. Hell, their religion was spread by war.
I was talking about Americans.
There is someone on this site who explicitly accused me of being pro Hamas, even though I have condemned them. What makes me pro Hamas in his eyes? The fact that I have posted a few things related to the way palestinians are treated in the West Bank. When I told that person to f-off, my comment was deleted and given a full COC violation , while his remains (free speech I guess).
I am not anti-semitic and have never uttered an anti-semitic sentence in my life, and never will. I admire and like the Jewish people. But if someone objects to something about the Israeli government you are automatically called anti-semitic.
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Yes, I know. I was speaking of Americans as well. Perhaps I should have clarified it better. If the Palestinian the American supports shares the goals of Hamas, then they're anti-Semitic, since Hamas' goal is the death of Jews and Israel.
The reason I said earlier "You just don't get it" in 1.1.14 is that you keep speaking in terms of what's fair for the Palestinians. What about them in all of this? What about their rights? How do you treat fairly a people whose main stated goal in life is genocide? Is Israel supposed to stop creating new settlements out of fairness for a people who don't think of it in terms of fairness but, rather, how much of Palestine they control? That is, in terms of how successful they currently are with their stated goal of ending Israel?
So, my question for you is, what's fair when dealing with a people whose main goal in waking up in the morning is to eradicate Israel by any means necessary? How do you deal fairly with people who don't accept agreements for the sake of peace but simply as something they consider will be useful tool toward their goal of genocide?
The reason you appear to so many here is that your argument could equally apply to Nazi Germany. The only difference concerning goals is that the Nazis had the power to inflict their goals on others, whereas the Palestinians don't. Otherwise, their goals and ideologies have no significant difference.
Where do you get such an idea about the average Palestinian?
In the media right now we have media people and officials and politicians flapping their gums all over the place. Virtually none of them address the issue of the west bank and the role it plays in the overall issue. When Hamas is crushed Israel, and the U.S. , will pretend once again there is not an issue with the treatment of palestinians in the occupied territories. And the clock will start ticking on the next uprising.
“And the clock will start ticking on the next uprising.”
As inevitable as the sun rising in the east. We are quick to blame, reticent to acknowledge reality, and oh so slow to learn.
Palestine could have remained part of Trans- Jordan and been living well compared to what they now endure. They have consistently chosen terrorism and the resulting destruction. None of their Muslim neighbors want anything to do with them. Egypt, Lebanon, or Syria take no material steps to assist or solve the problem. Egypt hasn’t even tried to open a humanitarian corridor to Gaza. Even Liberal Israelis started turning their backs to Palestinians after the 2nd Intifada after watching suicide bombers target civilians in buses, restaurants and stores.
They have fucked them selves.
True and what will be the major Israeli takeaway, regardless of their individual politics after this Hamas attack?
I don't think you understand the West Bank and the role it plays in the overall issue. Mostly because you appear to ignore the overall issue and microscopically choose to look at one, tiny portion of it.
For you, it appears to be Israel violating terms of agreements and what you think are basic human rights. You ignore the fact that every effort, every concession Israel has made in the name of peace and cooperation has been rewarded with more violence. Every time.
So, from my perspective, your argument is that we should stop Israel from violating agreements and your view of human rights so that the Palestinians and the Jihadists they, at the least, don't discourage, can get back to peacefully planning their next violent attack on Israel.
So, what do you think would have been different about recent events in Israel had Israel pulled out of the West Bank like they did when they left Gaza? I'll tell you what I think. It would have been ten times worse at least, since Hezbollah would have been in the West Bank.
Last question. What's the point of Israel sticking to its agreements when the Palestinians aren't and doing so just puts a bigger gun to their head? I don't blame Israel for creating settlements. I understand they are probably trying to push the Palestinians out. Fine by me, at this point. Go to Jordan, which is mostly Palestinian now anyway. I'm tired of their never ending hatred.
“…True and what will be the major Israeli takeaway…”
No one knows the answer to such a ridiculously nebulous question. Why it is even asked says more about the questioner and the never ending attempts at provocation and obfuscation.
So, no thanks. But do carrion.
We saw a dramatic shift to the right among Israelis after the 2nd Intifada with targeted civilian suicide bombings. I assume that will grow and regardless of how liberal the Israeli is, he/she will now completely turn their back to the Palestinians.
Some folks try to lookout more than a week, month or a year. If that’s to hard for you, no problem.
The Jews were in Israel before Islam was ever invented. As were the Christians!
(In fact the word "Arab" derives from "Arabia"-- which is where the Arabs originated.)
Some time ago I was a tourist in Egypt. I was on a boat ride along the NIle (wonderful trip-- we made several stops along the river-- at major archaeological sites).
There were two teenage boys who ran the gift shop. I noticed they each had a tatoo of a cross on the inside of their wrists, I asked what that meant-- they said is was because they were "Copts"
(The Copts are indigenous Christians who were in Egypt long before the first Muslim appeared. They have been, and still are, a persecuted minority). At one point IIRC indigenous Christians comprised > 10% of the population.
Everytime I saw them they keep peppering me with questions as to how I could help them get out of Egypt and into America because of persecution in Egypt.
Off topic but...
In answer to the olde question "is the Pope Catholic"?
To be perfectly accurate, the correct answer is "maybe">.
Depends on which Pope you are referring too (Egyptian Copts have their own spiritual leader who they call their "Pope"-- and the Copts have their own Christian sect (I believe its some sort of "Eastern Rite").
Having read a lot of comments from Hamas apologists on line, I keep hearing how Israel has "blockaded" Gaza-- nothing can get in and out.
These supporters of Hamas are either extremely ignorant-- or deliberately trying to decieve. Why? Because all it would take is is a quick look at a map-- and they'd see that Hamas does not only have a land border with Israel, but also with Egypt.
So a total "Israeli blockade" would be meaningless if Egypt opened its border with Gaza-- but they won't.
(Guess why...???)
Wow-- now that's a challenging question (way too difficult for someone like me to answer).
Anyway-- thanks for bringing that up!
FACT: It is not a racial war. Recent developments in genetics are truly amazing-- and one thing they discovered is that Arabs and Jews are descended from the same biological mother (long ago).
FACT: It is a religious war. (Hamas beliefs are not racial but rather they are religious extremists).
Well one thing you should be greatful for-- at least the moderators on this site aren't actual terrorists (unlike some sites I know)!
I believe you hit that nail squarely on the head AFK.
This article pretty much sums it up.... those that don't condemn the actions of Hamas are in fact supporters of their savagery.
Actually that reminds me of a quote from MLK:
In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
You know, most of these guys would have been there in Charlottsville, screaming death to the white supremacists, yet support the exact same kind of people (Hamas) doing way, way worse in Gaza. These guys are at least as bad as the Nazis were and, arguably worse. At least the Nazis tried to hide what they'd done.
And there are far more of "these guys" than however many "Nazis there supposedly are.
Many white supremacists are virulently anti-semitic. Have you ever seen social media ?
This article is not about them. It is about the widespread anti-Semitism of the American left. Even Jake Tapper mentioned it on CNN Tuesday. How did the left get away with not owning it for so long?
You are the one that said there are more anti-semitics than white supremacists. They are often the same people.
Antisemitism is still prevalent throughout the world. We can argue about which extreme has more, but this article is about the rampant anti-Semitism on the left.
You just bop around to one grievance thought after another. You think President Biden is a leftist. Is he anti-Israel? I dont pay any attention to what elite universities are doing on political issues, they have no effect on anything other than right wingers blood pressures.
You talk about college campuses virtually every day on this forum, I suppose because they are fertile hunting ground for targets for your far right opinions.
All you do is talk about ideology.
Based on what we are seeing on college campuses and the demonstrations (and what a few politicians) are saying that is not the case.
His policies are as far left as one could go.
Is he anti-Israel?
Like his mentor he is anti-Netanyahu and like both Carter & Obama, pro-Palestinian. Didn't you see the first statement they put out, which they quickly took down?
I dont pay any attention to what elite universities are doing on political issues, they have no effect on anything other than right wingers blood pressures.
That is where tomorrow's politicians, judges and leaders will come from.
All you do is talk about ideology.
That is the problem as I see it. If there was no radical left, I would not be posting here or anywhere.
They're not anti-Semitic per se. They're just bleeding hearts, like they've always been. We're talking about people who get very upset over mean tweets.
They have a long history of supporting anybody they see as a victim. It's an emotional thing. In this case, the Israelis are heavily backed by the US, have top tier US weapons, are highly trained, competent, and very, very effective.
This is not going to be close and it's not going to be pretty. Expect to see increasing calls for Israel to stand down.
Yup.
"Many"?
You are correct. After watching some of the "day of rage" protests throughout the country, there are a lot of white faces calling for the eradication of Israel.
Pretty sure none of those whites are conservative.
The demonstrators were carrying torches, an occasional Confederate flag, and chanting "Blood and Soil" (a Nazi slogan) and "Jews will not replace us:.
And as Trump pointed out "There were good people on both sides".
(A friend of mine who'd lived in Charlottesville for years said it was obvious that all or most of them were not from C'ville. (C'ville is a very picturesque college town, home of The University of Virginia.) Also nearby is:
1. Monticello, Thomas Jefferson's amazing home, which is open to tourists.
2. An hour drive away in the middle of dense forest is Yogaville, the Ashram of Integral Yoga-- I lived there for 3 months
Aside from the extremists marching of course, my friend said to a large degree she blames the Police Dept. Not they did anything wrong, Its that they were overwhelmed...but they also ignored warnings and were not adequately prepared)
Please post a link proving that Pres. Biden is advocating genuine Communism-- or it didn't happen!
How about some of the whites in the video posted in (comment 3. 1. 13- are they anti-Semitic? Are they conservative?
Obviously, Biden has a wide-open border, a war against American energy and unbridled government spending which caused inflation.
Anyone not upset about that must be as far left as Biden.
Exactly John!
We might be upset at those things, if they were true, but since they're not . . . .
I'll let our readers be the judge of that comment.
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Have you ever heard of irony?
No need. Not true.
Thanks for that!
Nice to know that the Nazis weren't really bad people!
Right. In other words, the Nazis knew what they were doing was wrong and shameful, which is why they tried to hide it. Doesn't make them not bad people, just aware that what they were doing was wrong.
How can one argue out of one side of their head that colleges and universities do not allow the free expression of political thoughts and ideas while arguing out of the other side that some opinions must be censored. There would not even be an "Israeli Palestinian Problem" if everyone agreed or there were not long complicated reason for such.
There is a difference between condemnation and censorship.
The university has only put forward radical views while censoring reasonable ones.
My previous criticism of student memos of support for Hamas wasn’t that someone published them, it was the lack of logical, critical thinking that they expressed. They can say what they think and some can criticize that thinking. I’m glad they were published so we have greater transparency on their thinking skills.
And they were supporting terrorists.
Apparently many who signed some of these pro-terror things are trying to get their names removed for fear that klater on when seeking a job the people who are hiring might search the web and see that they had such extremem views!
I think one problem that often occurs, especially in these debate on Social Media, is the common tendency towards over-generalization. Especially when attacking or defending various extremist groups. Well actually often when discussing any racial, religious, ethnic or political group.
Are not graduates and alumni the same thing?
The alumnus are former graduates as opposed to the current graduates.
Did you want me to specify with the word current?
Then perhaps you meant "Student" though you are still wrong...
I meant what I said and once again I am correct.
If you've graduated, you're an alumnus (singular male) or alumna (singular female), and part of the group known as alumni (plural).
If you are a "graduate student", you have completed your bachelor's degree and are working on a master's or doctorate... known as "graduate degrees".
If you have not completed your bachelor's degree, you're just a student.
And if you are a resident of Texas you should know the border is open.
Students are by definition going to be less educated than are graduates "alums", both in book learning and experience...
Of course it is.
WTF has that got to do with the correct usage of "alumnus"?
In most cases, sure. I think that was Vic's point. He just got the terminology mixed up a bit.
Educated doesn't necessary mean that "alums" are more intelligent and rational.
No, but on the whole, adults with 30 more years of life experience are more likely to be wiser than college kids who've never paid their own bills.
Sure, if you want, but IMO current graduates are still alumni. I think that to differentiate it would be better to say 'recent graduates' and 'those who graduated a longer time ago' in order to be more accurate..
What would a person who had graduated but than no longer was? What is a "former" graduate? (Perhaps someone who had graduated but then his/her/their/them's degree was rescinded?
Or perhaps a graduate who now decides to "identify as" a nongraduate?
(Asking for a friend)
And by the same token, if you are resident of Texas you would know that while Trump promised to complete the wall along the border he did not.
And if you were a resident of Texas you would also know that Trump promised the Mexicans would pay for it and they did not. (heck-- believe it or not I have friends who actually know those facts-- and they aren't even residents of Texas!
Not for a lack of trying. As Nancy Pelosi said "Not one dime for the wall!"
And if you were a resident of Texas you would also know that Trump promised the Mexicans would pay for it and they did not. (heck-- believe it or not I have friends who actually know those facts-- and they aren't even residents of Texas!
He did better than that. He found a way to get Mexico to agree to remain in Mexico policy. Yup, as a resident of Texas I'd be voting for him, as opposed to residents of Brookline MA, who vote against Israel's interests.
A graduate who dies could also qualify to be a "former graduate".
WTF has that got to do with the correct usage of "alumnus"?
Well obviously you are not a resident of Texas because if you were you would know!
Yet, the author probably never set foot in a university classroom. One day they decry that Neo Nazis, Proud Boys and white supremacists are not allowed free expression on campuses and the next day the same cranks are outraged Muslims are allowed to express opinions. The public opinion in NYC is ten to one in support of Israel against Hamas yet Palestinians should have freedom to express their opinions.
We decry anyone who is not a left-wing extremist not being allowed free expression on campus. As I said the other day, Professor Alan Dershowitz spent almost 60 years affiliated with Harvard university, yet he is not welcome to speak there, yet just about every anti-American or Anti-Semite degenerate is more than welcome to speak.
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Straw man. I saw nothing that said they should be censored. Rather, the issue is how atrocious their position is.
And what you are perpetrating is a lie.
Just as I decry the blood lust of so many supposed Christians now demanding the death of every man, women and child in the Gaza Strip? So, should those innocents die for proximity to the guilty?
Kill five and a half million refugees? Is that a Godly opinion?
What lie is that?
“Kill five and a half million refugees? Is that a Godly opinion?”
Old Testament ‘eye for an eye’ retribution. Hamas has no standing in carrying out their inhumane actions. They are a cancer that needs to be excised. How to do that while protecting the innocent is the question.
For to consider those innocents as but collateral damage is to forfeit any right we have in exclaiming we are just, empathetic, or somehow following gods design.
I have seen multiple Israeli spokesmen and military people say over the last week that they have no choice but to destroy gaza because of the terrorist massacres of the 7th. They dont want to kill children in Gaza, but they will because it is required in order to destroy Hamas. The unspoken human element is that of revenge. You killed our kids so we are going to kill yours. This is , of course, the story of the human race.
What professors/admins of universities vocally support neo-nazis?
Who’s demanding the death of every Palestinian?
So you believe that the US/Allies cause was not just in WWII? That justice required leaving the Nazis in charge of Europe and the Japanese in charge of most of Asia?
Innocent civilian deaths occur in every war. That's what collateral damage means. We know from past experience that Israel does more to prevent the deaths and injury to innocents but in war it is unavoidable. Or would you rather that Israel just turn the other cheek with regards to last Saturday's attack by Hamas? And why are you not also blaming Egypt who is refusing to allow an exit from Gaza by civilians?
“So you believe that the US/Allies cause was not just in WWII?”
Of course the cause was just. And it was just because innocent civilians who had suffered through the conflict were spared a death sentence, even if they had actively or tacitly supported the regime. Here’s to such humanity being exhibited even in the face of such brutality.
Where do you get your numbers from? The 2020 UN census count put the population of Gaza at just over 2 million, nowhere close to 5.5 million.
A lot innocent civilians were killed by the Allies who didn't provide warnings of where their attacks would occur.
If people equate what Israel is doing to the monsters who intentionally decapitate babies, rape, murder and publicly display the corpses of women for morale purpose, there's not really much hope for their honesty.
It's odd to me that the people who've spent years calling themselves anti-fascists s and patting themselves on the back for hating nazis are expending so much effort to keep actual Nazis from justice. Hamas is the closest thing you'll ever see to real Nazis in 2023.(and they may be worse, actual Nazis knew their crimes were wrong and tried to hide them, Hamas revels in them).
“And why are you not also blaming…
Plenty of fingers to be pointed…across multiple generations, multiple administrations, and multiple frustrations.
Plenty of time to place blame, let us at least be united in helping the hapless. Denying food, water, shelter and medical supplies should never be a political or military strategy. Just my opinion.
You know how things get made up for an agenda.................................
Nor should human shields or launching weapons from civilian back yards. Unfortunately for the Gaza civilians, their so-called government doesn't give a damn about them. The one and only stated goal of Hamas is to destroy Israel.
I feel for the innocents, but I don't know how else Israel can bring the war to Hamas.
Just to clarify, the entire population of Gaza is about 590,000.
I don't think that makes your point less valid, though.
That's Gaza City. The population of Gaza as a whole is 2.048 million.
Was GEN Grant wrong to lay Vicksburg to a siege, was Sherman wrong in his march to the sea?
Maybe Egypt will open a humanitarian corridor.
Egypt would never keep them in prison, right?
Egypt could allow a one-way push of supplies (food, medicine, fuel, tents) into Gaza. Letting Gazans out would require some stringent verification process Gazan but not Hamas). I don't know how executable that is.
Morning Drinker.. Egypt may do as apparently there are 17 Australians in Gaza and the only way they can get out is through Egypt.. certainly no other way that is for sure..not sure what on earth they are doing in there but I guess they have family etc...
So there are negotiations going on at the moment to see if Egypt can help in anyway...but I wouldn't hold my breath...
Agree, Egypt doesn’t want to accept much risk that Hamas could get into Egypt.
I stand corrected.
Much obliged.
Not only that-- but there are actually wild horses living on the Outer Banks in North Carolina-- but Jews should also have freedom to express their opinions as well.
Ask a Southerner that and you'll get a very different answer [removed]
If I wasn't feeling so lazy I would google for the facts of how many horrendous terror attacks Hamas from Gaza has wreaked of Egyptians.
(There must be a way to stop Hamas violence. Oh-- i know! Let's give them a state!)
Yes, people need food to live.
But I'm wondering-- before the recent situation-- if Gaza was "blockaded" for years-- where are all the dead bodies? (How long can people live without food? So there must be thousands-- maybe hundreds of thousand-- Gazans who died because they couldn't get food.
Or-- maybe-- they did get enuf food. Which raises an interesting question-- if they did get food-- where did they get it from,(given the fact that there was a joint Israeli/Egyptian blockade)
(Asking for a friend)
I think that the blockade of food and other supplies, just started. Food is also required for human reproduction and Gaza has one of the highest fertility rates in the world. Apparently there isn’t many other forms of recreation there.
Well, thank goodness that we didn't kill any innocents while implementing our wish to destroy Naziism in Germany!
Hamas along with all terrorist groups should be given a continent...Antarctica.
Morning monster..the Artic would be better... polar bears up there..😁
They could use a helicopter to drop contraceptives and birth control pills in. Actually, if they knew how to or wanted to use them it could help to reduce the excess population.
Or basketballs and frisbees for alternative recreation.
Where? Who? When?
I have seen and heard plenty of people, myself among them, calling for the destruction of Hamas.
Do you not understand there will never be a solution as long as terrorists speak for Palestinians?
Is lying a violation of the CoC? I forgot...
Because he defends pedophiles, that's why.
Doesn't that put him on equal footing with Hillary Clinton?
Dershowitz is also a pedophile involved with Epstein and raping underage girls