Live updates: Israel attacks Iran
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
An Israeli military official said that the Israeli Air Force targeted Iranian nuclear and military sites, without identifying them. The official spoke to journalists on condition of anonymity to discuss the ongoing operation.
Air-raid sirens preventatively rang out in Israel.
The attack comes as tensions have reached new heights over Tehran’s rapidly advancing nuclear program. The Board of Governors at the International Atomic Energy Agency for the first time in 20 years on Thursday censured Iran over it not working with its inspectors. Iran immediately announced it would establish a third enrichment site in the country and swap out some centrifuges for more-advanced ones.
Israel for years has warned it will not allow Iran to build a nuclear weapon, something Tehran insists it doesn’t want — though officials there have repeatedly warned it could.
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Israel has launched preemptive strikes against Iranian nuclear sites.
This is a developing story.
This would be the IDEAL result....
Exiled crown prince calls on Iranians to overthrow Khamenei for dragging Iran into war
Reza Pahlavi, writing in Persian, stated that war, likely between Israel-US and Iran, would be "Khamenei's war and the Islamic Republic's war,"and not Iran or the the Iranian people's war.
Right again Buzz.
Last night Prime Minister Netanyahu released a statement telling the Iranian people that Israel had no problem with them and looked forward to friendly relationships with them after the Iranian regime was gone.
And of course the rest of the world is coming down hard on Israel. So what else is new? After all, those "fucking Jooz" have the chutzpah to defend themselves.
Iran refuses to limit its right to enrich uranium - as it says, for civilian purposes. Is there anyone stupid enough here to believe them?
Iran refuses to allow the IAEA access to allow it to guarantee that it will not take the uranium beyond enrichment for civilian purposes.
Israel indicates that Iran is only days away from having sufficient enriched uranium for a bomb and only weeks away for many more bombs.
Nobody gives a shit that Iran, that funds and arms its proxies Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthies to attack Israei (The Little Satan), would give them the bomb to use on Israel, OR THE USA (The Great Satan).
Bob Dylan's song, Neighborhood Bully, that was written years ago, is even more relevant today (save for the verse about no allies, because at least America has its back).
NEIGHBORHOOD BULLY by Bob Dylan
Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man
His enemies say he's on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He's the neighborhood bully.
The neighborhood bully he just lives to survive
He's criticized and condemned for being alive
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
He's the neighborhood bully.
The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
He's wandered the earth an exiled man
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
He's always on trial for just being born
He's the neighborhood bully.
Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
Old women condemned him, said he could apologize
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
He's the neighborhood bully.
Well, the chances are against it, and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a licence to kill him is given out to every maniac
He's the neighborhood bully.
Well, he got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He's the neighborhood bully.
Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
He's the neighborhood bully.
Every empire that's enslaved him is gone
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
In bed with nobody, under no one's command
He's the neighborhood bully.
Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
No contract that he signed was worth that what it was written on
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
He's the neighborhood bully.
What's anybody indebted to him for ?
Nothing, they say. He just likes to cause war
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed
He's the neighborhood bully.
What has he done to wear so many scars ?
Does he change the course of rivers ? Does he pollute the moon and stars ?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
Running out the clock, time standing still
Neighborhood bully.
Letting the Shah fall was a bad mistake
"The Institute for Science and International Security assessed earlier this week that Iran could further the enrichment process to create at least one nuclear warhead’s worth of weapons-grade uranium in as little as two to three days at its Fordow Fuel Enrichment Plant (FFEP).
Nine nuclear weapons could be made within three weeks, and in coordination with Natanz Fuel Enrichment Plant (FEP), Iran could turn around 22 nuclear warheads within a five-month period, the Institute for Science and International Security claimed."
US-Iran tensions rise ahead of sixth round of nuclear negotiations | Fox News
"Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz confirmed the attack, saying in a statement: “Following the State of Israel’s preemptive strike against Iran, a missile and drone attack against the State of Israel and its civilian population is expected in the immediate future.”
Israel launches 'preemptive' air strikes on Iran
I thought Trump was going to solve this. Bebe told him to butt out.
He did try.
His MAGA base can at least be satisfied. He sought peace and kept the US out of it
The world is on fire .
Sound familiar ?
Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.
Let us hope good prevails over evil.
This attack would never have happened if Trump were PotUS.
thats a good one
It's amazing how trump is all powerful and responsible for other countries actions and Biden was just a senile piece of shit who couldn't accomplish anything.[✘]
When he was on the campaign trail that's what he convinced his gullible followers of. Nothing bad would have ever happened around the world if only he were President. Well now he's President and of course his campaign lies are exposed, not that anyone with more than half a brain believed him anyway.
BeBe decided to handle it, the Mullahs have gone too far. They are a rouge nation, perhaps the people rise up this time and throw the bastards out.
That's my hope. Gotta be tough on the Iranian government. Not only do they have to worry about what Israel is doing or what we'll do if they hit our forces or interests, they also have to worry about what the sizable number of their own people might do to them.
Wondering how the Saudi's are taking this.
Cheering while praying not to get caught in the crossfire, plus a huge helping of....how do we profit from this is Iran can't produce oil, like any intelligent country would.
It's alright. It's not even a story. Iran is a really big country. The bombings are only taking place in a few small areas. People in the majority of Iran can walk around and not even know any bombings took place. There's no need for anyone to even notice this.
Uh ok.
It takes a special "talent" to connect this with what is happening in Los Angeles.
[✘]
[✘]
Link?
It takes a special "talent" to connect this with Trump.
I suppose time was running out. Iran was getting too close to having a nuclear weapon.
President Trump tried to reason with Iran.
Good luck to Prime Minister Netanyahu. Nobody wants another insane regime with nukes.
Yes, the American and Israeli regimes are more than enough.
Like Israel?
No, like Gaza
It seems the 'merit' of having nuclear weaponry is lost on some here . . . under the theory of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) 'nobody' uses these weapons when in their possession because to do so would result in destruction of all a nation holds dear. An aside: why has North Korea and Chairman Jung fallen silent since going nuclear and Trump being returned to office?
Remind me, what part of the world begat "suicide bombers"?...
Israel is a tough one , conventional wisdom has one saying yes they are nuclear . but they have neither confirmed nor denied the issue , and there is no proof either way , just educated guesses .
they ARE most definitely nuclear capable , and do not have to test a thing so there would be no outright signature of a test . So adversaries would have to treat them as if they were and would use them .
Thanks for a well thought out and measured response....
"Suicide bombers" . . .would that have been Japan with its Kamikaze pilots during World War II? Oh, you mean the Middle East with its suicide bombers. . . it is a far cry from singular and multiple suicide bombers to get to a state population of 95 plus million people having a unified death wish, GregTx. Let's be realistic. And not just 'poke' here.
Of course MAD is just a theory involving sane people that would not be ok with mutual destruction. It does not include the crazy leaders that would have no trouble taking everyone with them if they were about to lose a war.
Kamikaze pilots didn't attack civilians.
Let's be realistic.
No, suicidal attacks are noting new nor are they exclusive to any race or religion...
Correct. Previous suicide bombers come from a number of different places, including but not limited to Sri Lanka, Turkey, Japan (not Kamikaze), Russia and the Philippines.
However that does not change the fact that Kamikaze pilots attacked military targets exclusively, and did so during a formally declared war. Not the same.
That is an 'easy' forecast for you to make without any way to validate it. Calling others "crazy leaders" is what some here 'do' to liberals on a daily basis, yet it is clear to all here that everyone of us (on this site) values our lives and future existence. Assume that since "MAD" works for nuclear equipped countries that it will work for "others." Please spare me the partisan rhetoric about people who privately offend you.
I am no fan of Iran, but I will tell you this: If the spirit is willing that nation just like other nations that 'strive' for nuclear weapons will get it. . . even if it is by accident offered to them. It is the 'nature' of things, as you surely know.
"MAD" has sustained life in nuclear equipped countries since its start. Of course, we have no idea of what/when/where any 'sane' country could nut-up-including the United States itself.
"MAD" works. Trying to 'blow out the sun' is an impossibility and so is the nuclear information/data already cataloged in the hearts and minds of the Iranians.
You know, it PISSES me off when people parse my comments to make oblique 'points' that do not respect the whole of my time invested in delivering it. It is 'human' to recognize humor or sarcasm—especially as I went on to CLARIFY that I understood Greg's intent:
But you ignored that for some bland statement suited to wasting time, apparently.
Maybe.
Maybe...like Israel!
Or...maybe . . . like Russia?
Or...like China?
Or like...the UK?
Or ...like France?
Maybe... no one wants another insane regine with nukes . . . like India?
Or maybe even...like Pakistan?
There have also been several nations that had nukes...but no longer do.
(IIRC, Ukraine used to have nuclear weapons?)
You are correct-- they have neither confirmed not denied having them. (Well, last I heard, which was a while back).
However, they definitely do have them. (GIYF).
A while back I had heardthat Sri Lanka was the first one-- but I don't think that's accurate. Here's an interesting article I came across a while back (I don't know how accurate it is):
A short history of suicide bombing
And (this may be a bit off-topic) there are two countries who probably would've but didn't-- due to Israeli meddling!
(Heh):
Under Saddam, Iraq was building a nuclear reactor. Iran attacked it, but was reluctant to totally destroy it (they were afraid that radiation ould be released) so Iran failed). Finally Israel attached in a brilliantly executed mission (Operation Opera 1981).
More recently, Israel destroyed a reactor that Syria was building. (Operation Orchard (2007). IIRC, there were no casualties except for some North kroeans on the ground (Syria said they were "tourists").
Poor democrats. They staged a big production this afternoon only to have their arch enemy Israel take all the oxygen out of the room.
Lol. I wish I had time to watch that. I must catch up tonight.
It was nothing. Padilla rushed Noem in the middle of a press conference, put on a performance, got rightfully taken down and then let go. Padilla's aid was ready with video rolling but never stepped in and identified the Senator. Odd that. ACTBlue started immediately fundraising off it and the usual puppets fell for it. It will be even more ephemeral than Booker's stunt.
The one you already know is that if the partisan identifications were reversed, the people most upset about Padilla being handcuffed would be calling for the Republican to be thrown out of congress and the sexism card would be played in force.
Padilla clearly identifies himself as a senator. Yet, they push him out of the room, around a corner and down a hallway and threw him to the floor and handcuffed him.
What was his crime? He was disrespectful to Kristi Noem? You have to be kidding.
Padilla clearly identifies himself as a senator.
After rushing the stage and causing security to get between him and his target. The idea that a republican could act like that at an AOC presser and you would call the republican a victim is preposterous. Not a single person pretending to be outraged would defend a republican senator acting in the exact same manner as Padilla. We all know it. So why bother with the performance?
If his goal was to ask a question, why didn't he wait for the Q&A? So much for the no kings talking point I guess. Rules apparently don't apply to Democrats.
hat was his crime?
He didn't commit a crime. That's why he wasn't arrested. He just acted like an asshole. The security guard thought he was a threat to Noem and acted accordingly. He's a nobody Senator and I doubt the guards have any clue who he is.
He indeed said he was. They problem is he had nothing to prove it, no security tag, and no one recognized him.
You must be watching an imaginary video. Maybe AI.
That was the ONLY thing this dipshit did right. The reaction was exactly what should have happened.
That probably pissed him off more than anything else.
So, during a press conference a clearly identified US Senator approaches Noem saying that he had a question for her. That Senator is then forcibly wrestled out of the door and handcuffed. And you feel that is what should have happened?
God knows what you feel the proper reaction would be to a simple reporter trying to ask her a question she didn't like....
You left out the part where he just starts acting the ass pushing through the crowd making idiotic demands to have his "questions" answered. Why leave that out? Why leave out that he could have stayed where he was and PROFESSIONALLY ask questions? (You don't have to answer that. We all know the reason)
That's what they planned on. Why else would his aid be there recording before it all kicked off? Why would the other sitbags like Newsome and Bass post about it before it happened?
Was he wearing his identification or are is the fed policy to take peoples word for who they are?
A reporter would be smart enough to keep his or her ID visible and not act like an entitled jackass and be allowed to ask whatever they want when it was time to ask questions.
Do you take everyone's proclamations as Gospel?
It would have been different if it were indeed Q&A time, but it wasn't. She was still in the opening remarks. He looks significantly older than the typical "I want it now" millennial or Gen Z individual, who usually thinks the world revolves around them.
Do you imagine anyone falls for your spin? He didn't try to identify himself as a Senator until security had already stopped his aggressive approach. No one knows who he is. Just saying "I'm a Senator" doesn't give you immunity to do whatever you want. If a male Republican did this to AOC during a press conference, you'd be the first person calling for his arrest. This pretend outrage from the left is so phony and transparent. I hope you at least feel the strings in your back as the your puppet master pulls them.
This sums the reality of the situation up as well anything I've seen:
All Padilla had to do was wait for the Q&A and ask his question. Democrats think their politicians are kings above the rules that apply to everyone else.
From a CBS reporter who was in the room:
"This all happened very, very quickly," Evans describes. "It was only then, after he was being dragged out of the room that he identified himself as a U.S. senator."
Watch how people dishonestly frame that he identified himself as a Senator. It's telling.
And again the hypocrisy of a "No Kings" protest is lost on the low functioning who expect different treatment for people based on what office they hold.
We need to make some protest posters with poster boy on it.............it's for the cherdren so "No Kings" it is there Mr. Arrogant Congresscritter
And they will just keep doing it after the truth is revealed. Of course nothing will happen to them for their staged theatrics so they will just keep doing it.
Interesting. I didn't see his ID badge, and he apparently didn't show it to anyone.
A reporter would probably have been wearing ID.
Anybody can say they are a senator. That's why they issue IDs
Members of the Senate are given Senate Pins to wear on their clothes, which he also was not wearing.
His ID and pin must have accidently fallen off right before he entered the room. Luckily his aids found them right when he was on the floor and the video stopped
Do you imagine anyone falls for your spin after seeing, and hearing, the video of the incident?
He wanted to ask a question in the middle of her speech. I'm thinking most agree with me.
First. That is not a full video of what happened. Second I see an unidentified individual fighting with secret service being escorted from a room and put on the floor to contain him
From a CBS reporter who was in the room:
"This all happened very, very quickly," Evans describes. "It was only then, after he was being dragged out of the room that he identified himself as a U.S senator. “
as the witness and your video shows, he didn’t identify himself as a senator until the confrontation started
Many partisans seem to ignore the facts and just stick to their made up narrative.
It was a press conference. You know, where the press gets to ask questions. Trouble was that many of her answers were lies and he could show that.
It is the full video of the incident, not the video of Noem's press conference.
So???
I am watching that happen on this this comment thread, keeping with their narrative despite the video showing it false.
Speaking about partisan and ignoring the facts, what do you think about Noem's statement that he never identified himself?
Not in the middle of a speech
Governor Walz appointee dressing up as a cop and shooting politicians is why security doesn’t ignore random people belligerently approaching and interrupting a cabinet officials speech who claim to be a senator after confronting security.
You do not know if he identified himself upon entry (as the Senator states he was 'escorted' into the room). Furthermore, upon being "dragged out of the room" he certainly identifies himself (and no one asked for his ID to confirm, but persisted to shove and manhandle him like he was some "dude" off the street). Now then, this kind of treatment of elected officials has gone too far. Secretary Noem is full of it to continue speaking from the podium about other matters and not addressing the altercation right under her nose! It was callous treatment of a senator! I daresay none of us has ever seen a senator given this type of treatment. . . even when behaving poorly. . .or wrongly. If this is who we are 'becoming' under Trump, we're doomed.
You've done it again Sean.
You get today's Edward R Murrow award.
Do you really think that was the way for a congressman to act?
Stephen A Smith did an entire podcast on it this morning.
That's a ridiculous rationalization, even by your standards.
He attempted to push through security, and continued to push on them through the entire altercation.
He knew exactly what he was doing, knew exactly what would happen, intentionally didn't wear his ID, and had his aide film the entire thing.
It was brilliant. In one day he's gone from being someone nobody recognizes to being the most famous senator in America. This stunt will be good for at least two more terms.
That is Bull. People (including the media) were vetted before being allowed in the room. Thus, there was no change of anybody getting close enough to hurt Secretary Noem. She could have tamped down this 'escapade' by speaking up, but she did not. Just droned on in the background, until she noticed the cameras had drifted away from her to the 'incident' taking place in the right of the room.
I did not hear Stephen A. Smith's podcast "this morning" so you are 'up' on me with that one. Don't know if I will listen to it—unless you can link it. I do not know how a senator should act as he is speaking to another elected official. As in this country, each USUALLY gives the other deference. So this is quite the unique experience for all of us, in my opinion.
As for the secret service agents. . . they just lost the 'politics' of this senator when they come looking for support for their departmental cause/s. You do not put senators on the ground over 'this.'
It is not. The video started after the incedent was already in progress.
So the Secret Service and people protecting Noem did as they saw fit. You do realize Noem had absolutely nothing to do with how her protection detail responded don't you?
You are correct. That was a bad video to use.
When did he identify himself? The video you like to point to shows him verbally identifying himself after the protection detail is already physically removing him. Do you think it is protection detail policy to take someone causing a disturbance at his word when he says who he is?
Why do you think he wasn't wearing ID like he should have been?
That remark is 'talking out of your head' and what do you know? There is video of this that comes from the 'cameras' in the room. Also, of course, it is feasible that a 'record' of his interaction with Secretary Noem would be recorded; 'everybody' records lesser events for their own professional and personal reasons.
Stop with the search for excuses to bad conduct (at best) all around. I saw the video, a senator was manhandled in mere seconds of opening his mouth! Surely, you would not say that a republican senator should be 'rough-housed' simply for opening his mouth. That said, since it appears that what comes around in Washington goes around. . . it could happen 'tomorrow.' Oh wait, two state lawmakers just got shot, injured, and killed. That is and potentially more of This is what disrespect of 'persons' will get us as country. And no, I do not wish any more of this kind of treatment for anybody in or out of office!
Padilla is not in the press
From anything I could see the press conference had not been opened for questions from press so what answers are you referring to?
Okay, Stephen A. Smith has a point. That is, Senator Padilla appears to have interrupted the Secretary, but that is not an INEXCUSABLE offense. What occurred when the secret service engaged a senator is not EXCUSABLE. They were out of line, as the usual protocol is to ask the Senator to remove himself (de-escalate; a professional 'courtesy'). . . not assault a senator out of the room.
Responding with your 2nd sentence.
I know that either this man knew exactly how this would go or he's a complete idiot. I choose to offer him the benefit of the doubt as a cunning politician.
All around? Really? So you're going to stop rationalizing?
No, responding with part of the second sentence. The video you like to point to shows him verbally identifying himself after the protection detail is already physically removing him. Try to be a little more honest in your responses.
Oh, yea....verbally identifying himself doesn't mean shit to a protection detail.
Why do you think he wasn't wearing ID like he should have been?
You can't know the senator's motivation and I explained why it would be separately and privately 'filmed'. But you can continue to 'agitate' this discussion if you wish, it still will need the senator to validate his motivation and no one else.
Breaking:
Unverified reports:
Iran's military chief of staff has been taken out.
Let's hope.
Good. I hope the targets were completely destroyed
Apparently alot of higher ups in the revolutionary guard and top nuclear scientists are no more.
Right wing psycho Jack Posobiec is conducting an online poll on twitter. 28,000 votes so far. 61% do not support Israel in this matter.
MAGA is upset with this attack.
The TDS is shining through...
They've been displaying it for almost a decade now.
President Trump, January: Iran can't have a nuclear weapon.
President Trump, February: Iran can't have a nuclear weapon.
President Trump, March: Iran can't have a nuclear weapon.
President Trump, April: Iran can't have a nuclear weapon.
President Trump, May: Iran can't have a nuclear weapon.
President Trump, June: Iran can't have a nuclear weapon
Trump failed to secure a peaceful solution. He is impotent as a world figure that can broker peace.
Trump gave Iran 60 days. Guess what today is?
You can try all you want, but the destruction of the Iranian military leadership and top nuclear scientists is a huge win over a country that's been an enemy for 45 years and killed thousands of americans.
So you think because another country launched attacks that every attempt should be abandoned?
Almost seems like some on the left are rooting for Iran so they can twist it to make a comment about Trump. There was no negotiating with Iran, anyone with a pulse and functioning brain knows that. Trump gave Iran a deadline and Israel made true on Trumps words.
Trump had made it clear. Iran can not have a nuke. He gave them 60 days to make a deal. They did not, they got bombed. Trump told the truth. The only folks whining about it are Trump haters and antisemites. Which is Chris?
Earlier today
oops
So you your mind, one country fighting another country is somehow Trump's fault or failure?
We should ALL know by now that absolutely everything that goes or has gone wrong in this world, between the years 2009 and today, is Trump's fault.
Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Big lesson the US should learn from this and the recent Ukraine attack on Russia is to forbid the CCP from owning any land in the US. Wonder how many drones are already in farms near US bases?
Great Point!
Easy now.
It's a very quick journey from a well intentioned idea to a congressional hearing.
"Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Chinese Communist Party?" We don't need that shit all over again.
That's the problem. This issue is so much more complicated than it was a few decades ago. Sean makes a very good point when he asks...
While what Ukraine did to Russia's bomber fleet was a crazy idea, it is demonstratably doable. At the same time, we don't want the "Red scare" witch hunts all over again while recognizing that anyone who has a real-world understanding of China would most certainly do unto us what Ukraine did to Russia if they thought it would serve them to do so.
Personally, I think every Chinese citizen is a spy for the CCP. Probably most of them are unwilling spies, but the CCP has demonstrated that those who refuse its will can do bad things to your family members back in China. Then there are the true believers, of course.
To my mind, the question becomes to what extent to we hold to our values in the face of an enemy that has none in pursuit of its goals? I do not think we should or need to throw them out the window entirely, but they should not hold us back from understanding the reality of our situation and acting accordingly. How, though? That's the problem.
Sounds very much like what we used to say about Russians when the Iron Curtain was still up.
Maybe. There is also a question about how willing we are to rationalize away those values, and then the alternative question about what we're actually saving if those values are gone.
Why should the ccp be allowed to own farmland, particularly near millitary bases? is there any foreign government you don’t believe has the right to set up camp in America ?
Personally, I think every Chinese citizen is a spy for the CCP
they are legally obligated to be. We’ve seen the results play out in in universities in particular.
Yes, it probably does. I'm sure you would agree that this doesn't make the point invalid, though. The propensity for the CCP for stealing everything they can from everyone they can makes even a non-party member Chinese student at MIT a valuable asset for the CCP, whether that student wants to be an asset or not. To my mind, it would be insanity to let a Chinese student work on sensitive government programs being conducted by MIT, for instance.
Yes, and those are good questions, but there's having values and being shrewd in their exercise. Standing on one's values is a good thing, but even that can be turned into something monstrous when taken to extremes. Further, I don't think one necessarily has to throw values out the window in order to recognize that another country, China in this instance, is acting with hostility towards us. Operating secret police stations and unlicensed labs dealing with lethal pathogens are not the activities of a neutral or friendly country.
Speaking for myself, I definitely think that the CCP would prepare something like the drone strike Ukraine conducted on Russia's bombers if they felt it had both a high chance of success and a high chance of remaining undetected. I definitely think the value system of the CCP is nothing like ours and could be stated as "whatever achieves our goals." That makes them a danger, to my mind, and we can't pretend that the values that supposedly guide us also guides them.
P.S.
I think McCarthy was wrong. I think he operated by fear mongering. I don't think we should necessarily treat China as a pariah state, although I think they're mighty close to that. But I think we need a stronger response than what we've had so far. One that isn't so heavily influenced by Wall Street and corporations. The world needs to pick a side; money or people. In China, they seem to just choose power.
And, in the inverse, I wonder does every country with a say. . . tourist U.S. citizen or military base consider every "American" to be a spy. Are how about this: Every time the state of Israel sends its citizens out into the world. . .it is a 'spy mission'? Watch what you put out for consumption. Fearmongering can get innocent people killed.
After all, Israel has already demonstrated that it has spies in Iran and I heard it elaborated on just last evening that Israel even has some Iranian spies on the 'payroll'. . .so Israel's intent is clear. Israel, rightly yes or wrongly no, is spying on 'everybody' in the Middle East! The country has to in order to survive.
Your overwrought opinions and prejudiced beliefs fly in the face of fifty years of increasingly improving American relations with and growing trade with China, and the world. Paranoid much?
Sorry. Personal attacks just boor me too much to bother with anymore.
Do we imagine they are going to buy it in their name? Why would we think they're going to use Chinese people? Why would they, when they can walk through California and find ten thousand blue haired protesters who would be happy to expunge their white liberal guilt?
Do I think we should stop Chinese immigrants from buying farmland? ... no I do not. If we're going to be like communist China, what's the point in the fight?
Do you think we can stop them? What if the Norwegian Pension system wants to buy a shopping mall in Toledo? Are we going to tell them no?
Why don't you start a movement to reinstate the China Exclusion Act, and add all Chinese people to Trump's list of immigrants to be deported? Better to be safe than sorry, cause after all, as another on this site has pointed out all Chinese people are OBLIGATED to be spies for the CCP.
Was the Norwegian pension system the origin of pandemic virus that killed millions or are they trying to smuggle in biological agents?... If so then, YES
Emotionally, I don't deny that is an appealing solution, but I prefer not to go with my emotions as experience has proven them to be bad decision makers. At the same time, I don't think pretending that the CCP is going to do the right thing is a workable solution to the problem is exactly rational. The CCP wants to be the big kid on the world stage and they will do anything to achieve that goal. If greed in the West wasn't so prevalent, countries would unite against the CCP until it got its act together in an acceptable manner.
Guess I misspelled "bore".
LOL Can I please borrow your crystal ball - I really want to know the numbers of the next 649 lottery in Canada. The CCP being the big kid on the world stage is the scariest thing that can happen, right? God forbid that America isn't number one. Why worry about China - it's predicted that India is going to rule the roost. At least be equally paranoid about them.
Let us just hope that the two big world powers can work out a great trade deal.
I believe they will. But there are other issues that need to be settled as well, such as student visas.
The President is willing to allow it as long as the nation's security is protected. He mentioned that many Chinese students attend our universities, then go home and start up great businesses. He is mindful of keeping them here.
With middle class consumers that are a multiple of those in the USA where would YOU want to start a business when you already had connections there.
Do we imagine they are going to buy it in their name?
they have been,
we're going to be like communist China, what's the point in the fight?
is preventing foreign governments from buying land in next to millitary bases the issue you have with the ccp?
you think we can stop them?
we seized Iran’s assets without too much for a problem.
What if the Norwegian Pension system wants to buy a shopping mall in Toledo? Are we going to tell them no
Do you think it’s possible to distinguish between that situation and China buying 100 acres that abut an air force base?
And if you tell them they can't do that, won't they just buy it through Panamanian shell companies like regular Americans do?
The issue I have, and it's an issue applicable to many more topics than this, is the collateral consequences of any govt action. What freedoms are we going to take away from regular Americans and in exchange for what level of effectiveness at preventing the thing we're trying to stop?
For example, if we look at what it would actually take to prevent drone strikes on US military bases, not allowing the CCP to title land in their name doesn't begin to matter. The CCP aren't the only ones you'd need to stop. What about Chinese nationals? What about naturalized US citizens from China? What about LLCs or other corporate entities from high confidentiality locations like Panama... or Wyoming? What about REITs? What about left wing American "activists"? This becomes a very long list very quickly
Then, what do you do about land that is owned by an approved person or entity but leased to someone else?
That's just the tip of the iceberg.
Is this every military base? How far does this zone need to be? 10 miles? 100 miles? Do we even understand how much land we're talking about? What do we do when drone range increases, which will undoubtedly happen before you can get this bill drafted, much less out of committee.
When we start to look at what it would actually take to address that, it becomes very difficult to design a strategy that doesn't also infringe pretty dramatically upon the rights of regular Americans.
We have a similar problem designing a "deport the illegals" strategy that would be even minimally effective without being outrageously unconstitutional.
Everything you said is totally correct, in my opinion. Question is what, then, do we do about it? Is it your opinion that the threat is overblown or that, to remain who we are, we can only do the best we can without letting the threat turn us into something we don't want to be? Some other option?
The point I'm trying to stress here is that simple "solutions" don't exist. They're like protests. They just make the supporters "feel better" without actually achieving anything.
I do think that threat is overblown, yeah. Wildly. Bordering on idiotically.
If you were the CCP (or anybody other nation) and you had the ability to launch 10,000 drones within US borders, you're not going after military targets. No matter how many planes you destroy in Nebraska or New Mexico, you still have to contend with 11 full carrier groups, submarines with tomahawk missiles, and our own drone force. We all know how that's going to end.
And then what's phase two of this drone attack plan? Are you going to invade? Really? The most heavily armed civilian population on the planet? The idea works in Hollywood, but nowhere else.
No, if you have that capability, you're going to take out electricity generation, gas pipelines, refineries, and water sources, and you're probably going to make it look like somebody else did it. (It will be easy enough to find some terrorist group willing to claim it all.) You're going to disrupt the US economy through civilian chaos, and then emerge as the global economic superpower.
The problem with THAT is.... the US is your #1 customer for all the shit you make in all of your factories. You kinda need your customers going to work every day to earn the money to buy your stuff.
What we need to be worried about are crazy people like Islamic extremists attacking soft targets, like the Colonial pipeline or a refinery on the Cancer Coast or a massive fresh water source. We've got to stop thinking that the next major war is going to be anything like the last one.
If China had a nefarious purpose in purchasing the land that happened to be near an American military base, does anyone think that China would be stupid enough to buy it in the name of a Chinese person or corporation that would be easily traced to the Chinese government?
Okay. I probably agree with this to some extent. While I think the CCP is an existential threat to Western values, I can't think of a simple solution. I've stated that if it were up to me, I wouldn't allow Chinese citizens into our institutions, but I recognize that this is more an emotional solution than a practical one. Nothing is that simple.
I can't agree with this. It would depend upon what kind of confrontation one hopes for. Drones attacking targets within the US is a strategic move, not a tactical one. Sure, they would have to contend in the short term with 11 carrier groups and the rest, but that is the immediate threat, not the long term threat. Taking out assets on bases, weapons production facilities and logistical centers would be planning for beyond the immediate threat they would face. Those carrier groups have to be rearmed, after all. And reducing the assets the US has to respond with will be worth doing no matter what.
No. The obvious goal of the CCP is Taiwan and its strategic value. They just need to cripple our ability to respond long term.
To my mind, that is more something Tom Clancy might write but, even then, no one would think for a second a terrorist group could be well funded enough to do such a thing without state backing. That is, even if the CCP chose the insane risk of using a proxy, no one would believe that proxy would be capable of doing something so massively expensive on its own.
Okay, but that assumes the CCP is concerned primarily with economics. They're not. If they were they would not have done half the crap they've done, such as what they did in Hong Kong, in the first place. The CCP is first and foremost concerned with power and control and economics is only a tool towards that end.
I get that. I started wondering why extremists aren't doing things like going out into the middle of nowhere and breaking rail road tracks 20 years ago. For all I know, the seasonal forest fires are started by extremists. There's a thousand ways to do that sort of disruption.
The reason I'm so concerned with the CCP is that they represent, to me, the biggest threat to humanity, secularly speaking. They are what the American Left will become if not kept in check. That is, a group of supposed intellectuals who think their ideology gives them sufficient reason to impose their will on everyone, and anyone not in line with their thinking are enemies of the people and justifies whatever is done to them. The CCP is a ravenous wolf trying to convince the world it's a sheep, but without the sheep's clothing.
May be protest do not matter or impact you, but that is "you." Others effectuate change through protest and marches. But, of course, being in the majority. . .you have never known the types of 'want' others face which merits their standing out, loud, and proud.
OK. But the Chinese are not irrational. They are going to play to their strengths, not ours. The softest targets are our civilian infrastructure elements, not our military. If we can't trust our water supply domestically, we're not going to be able to support any prolonged military action.
It assumes they understand that in order to be a military superpower you must first be an economic superpower.
Exactly. So when I think of vulnerabilities we need to address, making our military bases harder targets than they already are is pretty far down the list.
I don't see the CCP as part of that threat. I think we're doing that shit on our own. The "imprison you for praying in your own home" Scottish left, or the "imprison you for a tweet" English left would be prime examples.
Nah. They throw a tantrum and then when nothing changes they try to convince everybody it was all about "raising awareness".
Well, CB, you know what happens when you assume.
It just so happens I was born in the housing projects.
So, as I said, it's all about how you feel.
I have to laugh at the extent of the paranoia. Why, why, when China is presently well off, and its people are well off, and even the poorest are well off because abject poverty has been eradicated, in other words EVERYONE has a roof over their heads, food on the table, education for their kids, modern healthcare, wherein it has become so much a middle class consumer society, WHY would it do anything to America that would give America cause to NUKE THE HELL OUT OF CHINA??? Play the wargames in your dreams, but on a logic test you and Drakkonis fail miserably.
White privilege is a 'natural" thing-even for housing project participants. Moreover, so is conservatism and Christianity. It goes all the way back to 249 years, when this country started it really did not know how to be anything other than: white, conservative, and (predominantly) Christian.
That's debatable. They aren't irrational within a particular context. Put another way, the are not irrational within the context of their worldview, which appears to be that if sufficient force is applied, their goals can be achieved.
Which, as far as I can tell, is the absence of anything resembling a moral code. That is a strength of sorts. The willingness to do whatever it takes to accomplish objectives. I say "willingness" but that implies making a choice between difficult options, at least to western ears, but that isn't true of the CCP. It's simple math to them. What option has the greatest chance of achieving the desired goal?
A good point, but devoid of context, in my opinion. Civilian infrastructure is indeed the softest targets but consideration needs to be made concerning goals, combined with realistic capability.
Imagine that the CCP is about to pull the trigger on the invasion of Taiwan. Addressing what would be most important in accomplishing that goal? Poisoning water supplies or drones taking out Air Force refueling tankers at air bases within the US? Keep in mind that to be successful, the CCP would have to take Taiwan relatively quickly rather than something protracted. One could argue that the CCP could do both but we need to understand what we're talking about. Resources dedicated to a particular goal. While poisoning water supplies and taking out refueling tankers are specific, they're actually placeholders for soft and hard targets. The more ambitious the CCP is within the US the greater the chance of detection.
Thing is, even if they understand this, they have demonstrated that the don't know how to pursue it. The current trend has foreign investment leaving China. Even internally, their system seems to be on the verge of collapse. Just look at their real estate disaster. Real estate is pretty much the only way their citizens can invest and, due to corruption, citizens are forced to pay for properties that are literally top unsafe to live in. Billions of dollars spent on the creation of cities no one lives in. Infrastructure that, due to corruption, is falling apart.
I believe that this is the case precisely because economics isn't the actual goal of the CCP. Rather, they see it simply as a tool to accomplish their ideology. That is, rather than recognize international rules concerning economics, they see it as something to be manipulated towards a non-economic end.
I disagree. For what we're discussing, military bases represent the ability to respond to aggression in a timely fashion. If an enemy pulls the trigger, we can't just retaliate, we have to do so in a manner that damages their counter response to our response. That is, we have to be able to damage their abilities for future combat. You can damn well be sure that any enemy will be attempting that very thing in their initial attack if they have the resources. China might be the only country that could attempt to do so and through means that brought about this discussion. Chinese owned farms located next to military bases disgorging hordes of drones, for instance.
And as far as military bases being hard targets, all that went out the window with Ukraine demonstrating how easy it would be to attack bases thousands of miles away. Hardened targets needs to be re-evaluated.
I agree that "we're doing that shit on our own". I think the CCP is what it will end up like. Not necessarily a copy of their ideology but, functionally, about the same.
Read more carefully.
I started everything with "I think the threat is overblown" and ended it with "I don't see the CCP as a threat".
I'm sure you are desperate to convince yourself of that.
Before you tell me all about white privilege, let's establish your knowledge of it. How many days, precisely, have you spent as a white person?
You're just said conservatism and Christianity are natural. Implying that liberalism and other methods of faith are unnatural. I'm not sure that's where you intended to go with that.
The conservatives of 250 years ago were called "loyalists".
Actually, I wrote 'natural' - you IGNORED THE scare quotes in a RUSH to make a hasty and inaccurate conclusion. More to the point: There is nothing natural literally, about oppressing the rights, privileges, and liberties of non-whites simply to enlarge one's (private) community and tribe. That is the point made. . . though, you chose to ignore it for what appears to me to be a continuing disaffection for the truth.
As for being white or not being white (I am a black person) - I am definitely not! I have access to many and varied books that I can most definitely read and comprehend. White privilege is explained by other whites in books 'everywhere' if one cares to look. . . and read.
White privilege (like Christianity and conservatism) was baked into the creation of this country, and has been striving with other religions and liberals to hold them in check since. As a white person you don't have to do anything to possess its privileges, they attach themselves to you simply by being. It reminds me of the 'one' about not seeing the forest for the trees-you are IMMERSED in white privilege whether you wish it to be or not!
So, what's their reason for bullying their way all over the South China Sea. breaching other nations territorial waters and building artificial islands. What's the reason for all the predatory financial shenanigans they've practiced for years?
Sorry if I misinterpreted, Jack. I guess I was influenced by your saying this:
"The CCP aren't the only ones you'd need to stop. What about Chinese nationals? What about naturalized US citizens from China? What about LLCs or other corporate entities from high confidentiality locations like Panama...."
but realize now that it was in opposition rather than agreement. It's just that the paranoia of a couple of others has me wondering why I'm not shaking in my boots living in China married to a Chinese citizen. LOL
From what I understand their reason is that ancient maps show that those islands and the South China Sea are a part of China. Many do not agree with that argument.
Only the US Navy is allowed to rule the seas unfettered.
Makes sense. That was a hypothetical illustration to show how futile the proposed plan would be, and how much you'd have to infringe on the rights of American citizens while accomplishing very little.
Oh, let's REALLY get paranoid. How many nuclear subs are off the coasts of Cuba and Hawaii? Better get that "Golden Dome" up fast, eh?
Why is the ccp buying farmland in the USA?
For the crops, what else?
I want to thank you for my first laugh out loud of the morning. Hey, do you even think that maybe I'm a spy for the CCP, spying on the members of NT? Do you even think I'm a Communist? Well, I'm not, I'm a Canadian and until this last election when I voted for Carney I've voted Conservative for more that the last 40 years. My wife and her family are Chinese citizens, they are Buddhists, not Communists, and may I assure you they are NOT spying for the CCP. Just because one lives in China doen't make them a Communist. And just because one is Chinese no matter where they live doesn't make them a spy for the Chinese Communist Party.
BUZZ THE COMMIE SPY
Do you REALLY think that the Chinese are so fucking stupid they want to destroy their number one customer? Do you REALLY think the Chinese want to endanger the lives of the Chinese citizens who are becoming very comfortable and living a good life? Are you totally unable to comprehend that what is happening in the negotiations between China and the USA today is aimed at making life better for BOTH sides, and the world as a whole?
But okay, PARANOIA has obviously taken hold - so enjoy it, cause I'm LAUGHING.
why would China need to own land for crops? They can import cheaper from Asia, and in the event of a problem would not be able to export to China anyway. I sincerely doubt China is dumb enough to think buying land in America is an efficient way to get crops.
I’m sorry you aren’t up to speed on the laws of the country you live in. Here’s an analysis from a suitably left wing anti trump for those summering from TDS of the Chinese national security law
I once owned property in the USA. It was for my use, and as an investment. Chinese people or companies might buy up American land as an investment as well, or maybe a place for themselves or their family to move to. How many American companies have invested in China, and China is continuing to invite more and do not fear it, but God forbid China should invest in America.
Anyway, it pays to be careful, because people are watching.
Why am i the one dintisguishing between Chinese people and the Chinese government? Do you think they are the same?
I see you didn’t challenge what the Chinese national security law entails. How could you?
I never saw it before, and it doesn't frighten me. I have been treated with respect, even friendship by government officials and the police here and I have no fear of the Chinese government. In fact I have absolutely no fear of Communism or I wouldn't want to live here. Others can be paranoid about what they imagine is the evil yellow peril if they want, but I'm living a pretty good life here, and cannot imagine the horrors that those who are so fucking paranoid think is going to happen.
Don't ask me. You're the person who posted the Intelligence law that made ALL Chinese people obligated to spy for the government.
Nor do I, however, we both grew up in rampant socialism ... which is much worse.
I have even more reason than that.
Read the entire link. Sounds like a DOGE bucket list.
And for that matter-- why is Bill Gates?
Why is Bill Gates the largest farmland owner in America?
Possibly for some similar reason Saudi Arabia is.
I guess anyone getting arms from Iran will have to look for a new supplier.
This about more than Iranian nuclear weapons. Israel no longer has to worry about reprisals from Hamas. Hezbollah has been severely weakened. Bashir al Assad is gone. The Houthi threat is remote and too vulnerable. Israel needs to strike before Iran can rebuild its terror network. Obviously Iran would fall back on nuclear weapons to maintain its status as power broker in the Middle East. But a nuclear arsenal would only allow Iran time to regrow its terror network. They're weapons that could never be used without evaporating Shia Islam from the face of the Earth.
Now the oppo-whiners are trying to blame Trump for not stopping this. Where was the peace maker? Donald Trump has turned the United States into Iran's only lifeline. Think about that. Does Tehran try to run to Moscow or Beijing? Does Tehran really try to duke it out without being able to mobilize terrorists against Israel?
Trump has played the game so that the United States is no longer on the front line in the Middle East. Israel is the center of power now. Strengthening the weak ties between Israel and Arab states brings stability to the Middle East. And Trump really has placed the United States in the role of peacemaker. It's a new day! It's a new era!
The nation of Israel is 77 years old. . . how many presidents have labored their whole terms seeking to end conflicts and wars between Palestinians and Israelites? HOW MANY? Count the presidents. . . .
Think of an octupus, it has a big controlling head and tentacles. Think of Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthies as being the tentacles. One can try to cut off the tentacles but they keep growing back, so what is the only common sense thing to do - go for the source, the head, and prevent it from having the abiity to control the tentacles or do damage itself.
I think its more like a mythical hydra , cut off one head and 2 grow back.
Let's hope that ISN'T what's going to happen.
I think there may be another reason that Iran wouldn't nuke Israel. Israel is such a teeny tiny little country that a nuke exploding there , releasing radiation, would be deadly over a large area-- and therefore end any possibility of a country of Palestine.
The 21 or so Arab countries wouldn't not be pleased with Iran!
You make an interesting oblique point: Having nuclear weapons does not inherently make any nation invulnerable or less subject to a conventional attack. (Even the exceedingly powerful U.S. is 'begging off" Iran to not conventionally attack any of our bases at this time.) Moreover Ukraine, without nuclear weapons is not afraid of its massively nuclear neighbor Russia or its mediocre threats to use tactical nukes against it. Iran, additionally, is not afraid to attack its nemesis Israel when its own intelligence should be able to confirm whether Israel in fact has or does not have nuclear weapons.
These are very interesting 'developments' in a world where the most destructive forces known to humanity. . . cancel their own potential out!
This can be "clear" circumstantial evidence that the mere presences of nuclear weapons around the world is not a predicate for deploying such materials against enemies!
You're assuming that the leadership in Iran is rational and logical. I have my doubts.
Iran has now been firing some of its more powerful ballistics missiles on Jerusalem, and so far they don't appear to be particularly guided to specific targets. I wonder how the rest of the Muslim world would react if one of Iran's missiles were to demolish the Al Aqsa mosque, falsely coveted as the third holiest site in Islam (although only two others are mentioned as being Islam's holiest sites in the Q'oran").
The Trinity test and the Hiroshima bomb didn't spread radiation very far. Iran wouldn't even need a nuclear bomb. A conventional bomb that spreads U235 would be a dirty bomb that limits spread of radiation. Dirty bombs would make Israel uninhabitable, destroying Israel. But that would eliminate the Palestinian right of return.
That's why Iran enriching uranium U235 is dangerous. Iran's nuclear program is a threat even if they don't pursue a nuclear weapon.
Would bring stability.
And that'w why Hamas' Oct. 7th attack was so unusually brutal.
They know such atrocities would cause a stronger than usual reaction from Israel-- a sever attack on Gaza.
The real goal?
The sabotage the implementation of the Abraham Accords.
(And in that sense the barbarism of Oct 7 has been sucessful... 0
The thing about the Abraham Accords is that the two-state solution wasn't an impediment. The Oct. 7th attack was supposed to refocus attention on the two-state solution. Saudi Arabia has been the holdout, ostensibly, for some sort of progress on the two-state solution. That's why Biden and Trump have been essentially groveling to Al Saud. IMO, the Abraham Accords is also why it was important for Trump to accept the gift of the 747-8 from Qatar.
It is time for the US to misplace a couple bunker busters.