It’s official: Our country now has its first concentration camp
This is one of the saddest columns I have ever had cause to write.
My sister, now nearing 80 years old and still working every day, running an influential Jewish media watchdog organization, converted to Judaism many decades ago. Thirty-five years ago, she decreed that "there will be no global ecological catastrophe", and hasn't wavered. She has been a firm supporter of Donald Trump.
She reminds me of that Jewish prisoner in a Nazi camp, watching Luftwaffe aircraft pass overhear, and exclaiming, "Aren't our planes magnificent?!"
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Aerial photo of Dachau Concentration camp
I grew up in the United States Army that had just won World War II and liberated Europe from Nazi rule. The history of what the Army had done during that war was all around us on posts in the United States and especially in Germany, where my father was stationed and we moved as a family in 1955, just ten years after the end of the war.
My grandfather, General Lucian K. Truscott Jr., played a major role in that war, commanding the 3 rd Infantry Division, the VI Corps, and the 5 th Army. His units liberated parts of North Africa, Sicily, most of Italy, and Eastern France after the landing at Marseilles in 1944.
During the summers when as a boy I visited Grandpa and Grandma in Washington D.C., his study in the basement was filled with his personal library and some of the artifacts of his service. There was a Nazi helmet hanging on the wall next to the Luger pistol that was taken from the German general who surrendered to him in Italy in May of 1945. All of that fascinated my brother Frank and me as boys. But what really got to us were two large photo albums that had been presented to grandpa by the 5 th Army and the 3 rd Army, which he commanded after the war when he was appointed Military Governor of Bavaria by General Eisenhower.
The 3 rd Army album contained photos of the liberation of the Dachau concentration camp near Munich. The photos were horrifying, taken by Army photographers the day the camp was liberated, showing starving inmates in striped uniforms clinging to the wire barriers around the camp as U.S. troops approached. Then came photos of ditches filled with bodies stacked atop each other, and more photos taken inside the barracks of starving inmates huddled together on three-tiered bunk beds. And more photos of the ovens, where bodies were incinerated, and photos of German guards rounded up and arrested.
Grandpa was the court martial convening authority for Bavaria. He signed the document establishing the war trials at Nuremberg, and he established the Dachau Tribunal, which was held at the camp, where Dachau camp commanders and guards were put on trial. Nearly 1,500 were found guilty; hundreds were given life sentences, and more than 200 were executed.
Displayed alongside the photo albums was a thin volume, a pamphlet really, printed on newsprint, which Grandpa had ordered to be printed in either 1945 or 1946. Its title was “Dachau Diary.” The text was taken from a diary kept by an inmate who had written down what he experienced on scraps of paper that were recovered when the camp was searched in 1945. Along with the text, there were black and white photos showing the horrors of the camp taken by Army photographers.
I never saw another copy of “Dachau Diary” other than the one in Grandpa’s study. Frank and I would sit there in horror and read the account of the inmate, translated into English, and look at the photos. Burned into our minds were the words, “concentration camp” and “Dachau.” The Germans kept detailed records of what went on there – the number of inmates, tens of thousands over the years. Four thousand Russian prisoners of war were executed by SS firing squads at a sub-camp nearby that was run by the Dachau camp commander. Tens of thousands were either killed or died from starvation and disease. The total number of those who were killed or died from inhuman conditions at Dachau is not known, but in the final year of the camp, from the winter of 1944 to the camp’s liberation in April of 1945, it is known that there were at least 15,000 inmate deaths.
What Frank and I could never understand was how the German citizens of Bavaria had gone about their lives for the ten years Dachau existed with those horrors right there among them. Some of them worked at Dachau as guards, and some worked in administrative positions. In the early years of the camp, there were even investigations by local officials of deaths at the camp. The investigations ended by 1934, but records from that early time ended up as evidence in war crimes trials against camp officials.
Citizens of Munich and other towns in the area had to have known what was going on. In the German state of Bavaria, elaborate castles had been built by King Ludwig, filled with art and artifacts and gold, with lavish gardens and man-made waterfalls. Munich had a famous orchestra, and there were theaters and libraries and universities and a history of culture and science and intellectual study.
And yet there was the Dachau concentration camp, huge, more than 20 acres in all, the site of an SS training camp for guards destined for other concentration camps in Germany and Eastern Europe. Some of those trained there had to have come from the local populace. They had to have told their families what the training was like, what they had seen at Dachau, what, in fact, they were being trained to do.
Well, I wish my brother Frank was still alive, because the questions we had about how it was possible that Dachau happened in Germany are answered by what is happening right now in Florida. Governor Ron DeSantis has built his own concentration camp, which he calls “Alligator Alcatraz,” on the land of an airport in the Everglades. Nearly 900 undocumented migrants are kept there in cages inside huge tents, 30 or more to a cage. There are only three toilets and sinks for dozens and dozens of inmates. Reports from the camp say they are being fed spoiled fruit, moldy bread, ham or cheese sandwiches and little else. Swarms of mosquitoes are everywhere. Inmates are covered in festering bites.
Florida concentration camp under construction Florida built the camp and is filling it with migrants under a program that allows local law enforcement to pick up undocumented immigrants and detain them. Reports out of the camp say that some migrants were detained after traffic stops on highways and local roads. Some came out of local jails, having been arrested for committing crimes. DeSantis says there are plans to increase the size of the camp to a capacity of 4,000 inmates. The ACLU has filed a lawsuit alleging that detainees are being “blocked” from access to attorneys, according to the Washington Post.
The Post reported that the inmates are being housed in the Florida concentration camp at “at a cost of about $411 per bed a day. By contrast, ICE said last year that detention beds cost an average of $157.20 per day.” The large tents have air conditioners, but they are said to break down frequently.
Nobody knows what the temperature is inside the tents, because no one is allowed inside the concentration camp to inspect conditions. A few Florida lawmakers from both parties, including state representatives and members of the Florida congressional delegation, were allowed into the camp last Saturday for two hours. They were not permitted to bring phones or cameras inside. Journalists were not permitted to accompany them. Citizens from the local area, including members of the Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida who live nearby on land in the Everglades, are not permitted entrance to the camp.
Guards are being hired by Critical Response Strategies, a company that has been contracted to run the camp. The pay is $29 per hour, with $39 per hour for overtime. Guards are housed in narrow trailers on the camp’s grounds. They work for 21 to 28 days straight with no time off, then they are given seven to 14 days off between their shifts. One guard who worked at the concentration camp and quit told the Washington Post that she had been put to work at the camp the same day she was hired by Critical Response Strategies, which has a $78 million contract to manage the camp. The length of the company’s contract is not known. If people are being hired and put to work as guards on the same day, it does not appear that they are given training or much of a background check.
Suffice to say, a whole lot of money is being spent to keep undocumented migrants in detention in Florida. The money comes from the Department of Homeland Security. It has been reported that DHS is using FEMA money to build and run the camp.
So, that’s how it happens. A concentration camp is hurriedly built in an out of the way location – Dachau was built in the middle of an undeveloped forest in Bavaria – and local people are hired to work there. Photographs of the conditions of the camp are not permitted. Inmates are denied access to lawyers, and they cannot be visited by family members. Even local lawmakers are denied unsupervised visits to the camp.
In short, nobody knows what is going on out there in the Everglades. Donald Trump wants more camps like the Florida concentration camp built by other states. The Big Bullshit Bill just passed and signed into law provides DHS with more than $100 billion to hire as many as 10,000 new ICE agents and who knows how many concentration camp guards.
So far, there have not been any reports of deaths at the Florida concentration camp in the Everglades. With hardened criminals being thrown into cages inside the tents with migrants who have no criminal records, which appears to be the case, it’s only a matter of time before someone is going to get killed or a riot breaks out. Kristi Noem and Donald Trump have tens of billions of dollars to spend on rounding up migrants and throwing them in concentration camps before they are loaded onto planes and sent to so-called “third party” countries, from which the migrants did not come.
Germany passed the Nuremberg Laws in 1935, which declared that Jews and other minorities were not eligible to be citizens of Nazi Germany. That enabled the German government to begin rounding up Jews, Romani people, Blacks, intellectuals, college professors, lawyers and others declared to be “enemies of the state” and begin sending them first to Dachau, and then to other concentration camps. Trump is using immigration laws and his Big Bullshit Bill.
Everything done by Trump and Stephen Miller and Kristi Noem and Tom Holman will be signed and official and legal. But they will still be putting human beings into concentration camps far from prying eyes, and they will not tell the American citizens what their tax dollars are paying for with the gigantic contracts and salaries of guards and managers and profit margins of companies like Critical Response Strategies.
Even with as little as we are being told, we know what is going on. They have built an American concentration camp in Florida. It is evidence of fascism, and it must stop.
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I don't use the word "Nazi" lightly. I have been to Auschwitz, and seen the unthinkable records of what went on there.
We are headed in that direction... fast.
Anyone who says otherwise is a fool, or a willful participant in the horrors to come.
Lol, you say this,
”I don't use the word "Nazi" lightly.”
and then you majorly contradict yourself by saying thus,
“We are headed in that direction... fast.”
Ummm... I think you may need to review your understanding of "contradiction".
How about Commenting on topic: What is your opinion of our nice new concentration camp?
I understand the definition of “contradiction” just fine, thanks. So anyway, what is my opinion of our nice new concentration camp? It’s mixed.
First off, this part was somewhat depressing, it’s built “on the land of an airport in the Everglades.” when i heard alligator alcatraz i was thinking they’d be literally standing, sitting, and sleeping in gator infested swampland with major cases of trench foot. That’d be a big one up on the nazis. But sadly, the illegals are being held on dry land.
But then my opinion quickly improved as i read this,
“Nearly 900 undocumented migrants are kept there in cages inside huge tents, 30 or more to a cage. There are only three toilets and sinks for dozens and dozens of inmates. Reports from the camp say they are being fed spoiled fruit, moldy bread, ham or cheese sandwiches and little else. Swarms of mosquitoes are everywhere. Inmates are covered in festering bites.”
yeah, that’s more like it! But then i remembered this article is by a guy who is very prone to exaggerate the hell out of things, but i remained hopeful.
but then my opinion worsened because of this,
”The Post reported that the inmates are being housed in the Florida concentration camp at “at a cost of about $411 per bed a day.”
That seems like an awful lot of money to spend illegals in a concentration camp. It seems we could learn a thing or two from the nazis.
finally, my opinion of our shiny new concentration camp never improved because there is no mention of mass graves, or gas ovens or gas showers. And no mention of using illegals for medical experiments. And no forced labor? And we only have one? Just one? WTH?
so yeah, my opinion is mixed.
Cruelty is the point with MAGA. Perfect example.
————————Wooooooosh———————>>>>>
You do mean from the East of the Atlantic, right?
Fart noises won’t change the evil shit you’ve written.
Don’t know what that means.
Oh? I've read quite a bit from Truscott, and haven't found any exaggeration. I don't suppose you could back up your affirmation in any way? You wouldn't be making it up, would you??
Yes. You seem to be learning fast.
That wasn’t a fart noise, that was sarcasm flying overhead, and you know it.
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Have you been to Manzanar?
There's no need to travel to Europe to visit a concentration camp. We have one in the Owen's Valley of California.
Is California home to the American fascists?
Nerm...
The fact that someone did something wrong does not make someone else doing it right.
If you believe FDR was wrong, then you probably should not be defending Alligator Alcatraz...
The fact that the US government rounded up and detained immigrants and citizens also doesn't make someone else doing it fascist or NAZI.
If you believe what Trump is doing is fascist and NAZI then why wasn't FDR fascist and NAZI? Why the selective accusations and allegations? FDR was as autocratic and dictatorial as Trump, if not more so. While never meeting in person, FDR and Hitler did communicate with each other before the war.
I'm not defending Alligator Alcatraz. What I'm defending is enforcement of immigration law and recognition that detention centers are needed to enforce immigration law. I don't know enough about Alligator Alcatraz to judge its merits as a detention center.
So gas chambers are being built? I haven't seen them. Anyone that compares alligator Alcatraz to a concentration camp is either ignorant or just lying to try to make some sick point.
Who are you going to believe?
Lucian K. Truscott or your lying eyes?
The Nazis didn't even test gassing as a means of mass murder until 1940. Mass murder began in 1942. So... they were headed in that direction for a decade before they actually started doing the killing.
The Nazi Party became the biggest in the Reichstag in 1932, but the first concentration camp - Dachau - was opened only in March 1933. America's fascists are on schedule.
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So anything short of that is fine?
And anyway, how would you know? No cameras allowed. No journalists. No review. No oversight. No transparency. You don’t even know who is in there.
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Is it? Where can we find the names, then?
10 seconds on google
How about 60 seconds to read your own links? A newspaper produced these names, not the government.
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At regular jails, attorneys don’t have this problem. Everyone incarcerated gets a phone call. Families aren’t left wondering. Why? Because it’s readily accessible public information.
Those are the names, a complete list that could have only been provided by the government.
Your faith in the government is inspiring.
Excellent Comment.
It seems, for our MAGA friends, that if anything worse can be imagined, then what is actually happening is not as bad, and if it's not as bad then it's OK, and if it's OK, then it's GOOD!
We can imagine gas chambers, because fascists have done them. So anything less than gas chambers, by this logic, is GOOD.
MAGA morality....
And yet here you are.
Now that's comedy.
Look, Bob. Pretty sure no one here would approve of the US running a Nazi style concentration camp. But all you're really saying here is that anyone who doesn't agree with you is either a fool or to blame. Not going to convince anyone here of that. Even those who voted you up know there's not really much of a comparison between the camp in Florida and what the Nazis did. Let me show you the difference.
Compare that to a prison.
While both are described as prisons, one has a different purpose than the other. For instance, if Central and South American persons, citizens or not, were being put into camps like the one in Florida because they are Central or South Americans, the facility would properly be called a concentration camp. If the criteria for being detained there is because the law of the country has been broken by those individuals who are there, then it is properly a prison. If you disagree, I wonder if you would then call every jail and prison in the US a concentration camp, as they are doing the same thing.
Someone might be tempted to suggest that the illegal immigrants held are political prisoners, but that would be as much an exaggeration as calling the Florida facility a concentration camp. They aren't being held there for their politics, but because they broke the law.
Further, I've seen no indication that anyone intends to use the detainees for forced labor, that they are being treated cruelly, tortured or intended to be exterminated. As far as I can tell, they're just being held there until their legal disposition is determined.
To my mind, these sorts of articles, such as what you seeded, do more harm than good. For those who are more emotional than rational, it only serves to make them more emotional. For those that can see what nonsense the article is will be far less likely to discuss whether that camp should even be there out of fear of pandering to irrational emotionalism.
The problem, Drak, is that the Trump Administration has shown that it doesn't care whether the people they arrest are are actually criminals. They have arrested people for their words, written or spoken. That's kinda sorta the definition of " political prisoner ".
Do you think they wouldn't arrest Stephen Colbert, if they weren't afraid of the blowback?
For example?
Probably not, I think. I think it more likely that they would attempt to sue him for something like defamation. I wouldn't be against that, if they did it to pundits or journalists on both sides of the isle who, to my mind, work not to inform people of the truth but, rather, to get people to see the truth as meaning what they want it to mean. To my mind, they should not legally be defined as journalists and pundits but, rather, political activists and should be referred to as such.
If you don't watch current events closely enough to know several cases without researching... I doubt you'd listen to me.
Not a chance.
I'm glad you said this because, I think it nicely illustrates the general problem the left and right have in speaking to each other. You say you doubt I'd listen to you after I asked you for an example of who you considered being prosecuted for their words, written or spoken. Then you replied with the above.
The problem as I see it is, rather than provide an example, you seem to want me to believe you simply based on your assurances that it is so. I won't do that and, for the ironic reason that doing that sort of thing contributed to how Germany's concentration camps came into being in the first place. That is, people just believed what they were told.
Furthermore, your presentation and interpretation of the seed argues against taking your word for it or agreeing with your point of view. No reasonable person who isn't attempting to appeal to emotion would find the article believable. Just because someone writes an article attempting to draw parallels doesn't make those parallels factual or accurate. In this case the author, Truscott, jerks at the heartstrings concerning the genuinely terrible actions of the Nazis and their concentration camps and, once the reader is in the 'proper' frame of mind, attempts to convince us that the Florida camp is the same thing or is in eminent danger of being so, but without any real evidence. Just unsubstantiated allegations and innuendo. Sorry, that just won't work for me. It seems to work for those who think with their emotions, though.
Indeed. I think we can all agree that if the conditions are poor at this "Alligator Alcatraz", then they should most definitely be improved. Why must we agree that it should be called a "concentration camp" when that clearly is not its purpose or function. It is a temporary detention center under Florida's 287(g) program for housing undocumented immigrants whose cases are being reviewed for possible deportation consistent with Federal Immigration law.
Surely there is plenty to debate when it comes to who is being detained and the conditions of that detention. When lawmakers from the Federal and State legislatures toured the facilities after they had opened, there were certainly different opinions on what they saw, and those opinions were naturally divided along partisan lines. There was overselling from one camp and over-exaggeration no doubt from the other. The truth is clearly somewhere in the middle and only transparency and honest discussion will bring it to the fore.
The meme below I think illustrates the real " problem the left and right have in speaking to each other " quite well and it rings true especially in venues like this where opinions are the strongest among participants.
All we can do as individuals who prefer rational, logical and mutually beneficial / educational discourse is to conduct ourselves in a manner where this cowboy ain’t talking about us.
Dachau was legal. Auschwitz was legal.
When the state is evil, "legal" is morally meaningless.
The question about Alligator Alcatraz is not its legality. The question is its morality.
It would also be immoral to camouflage the question of the camp's morality behind a smoke screen of questions about its legality.
Are you talking about the morality of detention in general or the conditions at this facility in particular? If the former, why was the morality not questioned in the detention and deportation of undocumented immigrants during the Obama or Biden administrations? Detentions did nothing but increase during the Biden administration, and Trump has yet to match Obama's deportation levels. If you are talking about the immorality associated with alleged poor conditions at one or more of the facilities, then I agree with you that such conditions need to be addressed immediately.
A "smoke screen of questions about its legality"? Where is this smoke? The current immigration law is clear and adequate facilities are now necessary to enforce it. The extent to which it has actually been (or not been) enforced, or the policies established in many States/cities to purposefully thwart Federal enforcement, have always been the "smokescreen", or the "camouflage" if you prefer, in this matter. Had the law and border security been enforced from the beginning, and the proper path to becoming a naturalized citizen would have been followed, we would not even be having this discussion and there would be no moral questions to ponder.
What is unclear to you?
You! Hence my question about what you meant. Is this a two way discussion or should I just shut up and adopt your vague opinion without question?
Careful now, you might just prove the cowboy’s point.
I dislike false pretenses. "The question about Alligator Alcatraz is not its legality. The question is its morality." Those are perfectly clear sentences. I don't see how they could be misunderstood... but I gave you the opportunity to be more precise. You ducked.
My opinion about what? The only statement I made is that legality and morality are two different things. That's not an opinion. That's definitions.
I asked about the morality of Alligator Alcatraz. You answered about its legality. Either you misunderstood simple words, or you intentionally tried to change the subject. That's what I call a smoke-screen.
Oh, and... I really don't give a fuck about people's opinions.
No, you made a statement that the question regarding AA is not its legality but rather its morality. And I asked specifically what you meant by its "morality", VERY clearly in my response. You dodged that, and I "ducked" nothing. Please do not project your tactics on me..
Yeah, no shit... So are you just here to unload your opinions and insult those who try to discuss and understand them? If so, then you might be in the wrong place here brother.
Look, Freewill... communication is difficult. For all of us.
A long time ago, in one of those corporate seminars where one usually learns very little, the lecturer said something that has stuck with me ever since: the responsibility for understanding rests with the emitter, always. The receiver has only the words received, not what is happening in the emitter's mind. Presuming to know what the emitter is thinking is stupid, a near-certain path to action that is off-topic. (I call this "mind-reading" - it's practiced by many, here on NT, in particular by Moderators. "Mind-reading" leads to stupid mistakes.)
The emitter must try to be as simple and clear as possible. The receiver, if they do not understand, must ask questions, as simply and clearly as possible.
These rules concerning communication seem obvious, but OMG, they're almost always ignored... because we - the emitters - know what we meant!! Dammit!! It's inexcusable that the receiver not understand. In this, we are profoundly wrong.
Look at this exchange:
I clearly said "about Alligator Alcatraz". You ignored my words.
I did not mention "conditions". I said "not its legality"... "its morality".
I do not know how to be more precise.
There are several kinds of conversations here on NT. There are lots of exchanges of insults. Those don't really interest me, but hey! I'm human: sometimes an insult does get through to me, and I respond. But such conversations are pretty much worthless and pointless.
There are congratulatory circle-jerks. Even more worthless and pointless. I never get involved.
Occasionally... very occasionally... there are conversations in which both parties try to work together to get to a better understanding of the world. Those are the reason for my presence here. My contribution to such conversations is not "opinion". My "opinions" are those of one person, and that's not much. That's what I mean by "I don't give a fuck". I don't give a fuck for my own opinions, either.
I bring data. Facts. In a case like AA, the conditions of detention are IMNAAHO secondary. Significative, but secondary. The primary question is, "Should America be building these camps?" From the Comments, here, it seems we are unanimous in condemning the Nisei camps in WWII... It seems to me that we're doing the same thing here: rounding up people because of their appearance, and putting them in camps.
That was my question: is that morally correct?
Agreed
Agreed. I was not clear on what you meant so I asked what I thought was a clear question. You have now responded yet your answer is still not entirely clear. On the one hand you say you were talking specifically about the morality of AA (although not the conditions there), and then you say, "Should America be building these camps?" Which of course leads me to believe you are talking about the morality of building these facilities in general, which is what I was asking. If the issue is indeed the morality of building these detention centers in general and using them to detain undocumented immigrants under the law, then where was the uproar when other administrations were doing it and why should we only now refer to them as “concentration camps”? I think that is a fair question.
But their appearance is not the reason for their detention, their illegal immigration status is. And that is a very important fact and distinction when gauging the morality of the process.
With all due respect Bob, it appears that question is premised on an erroneous assumption that folks are being detained because of their appearance and not because of their immigration status. If they truly were being detained only based on appearance or race then I agree it would clearly be immoral. In any case, I would also agree that if the conditions of the detention are inhumane or inconsistent with the law and execution of due process, then we have a moral obligation to correct that as well.
I understand Bob, and I apologize if I was not being clear, and for my tone in my last comment. The written anonymous forum is not ideal for topics like this. If we could sit down with a beer and discuss this face to face, I think it would result in a much clearer and more productive discussion.
Thanks for bearing with me.
That seems like the nexus is of our disagreement. The detainees are overwhelmingly nie-blanke, while the Administration sends taxpayer-paid jets to South Africa to collect White would-be immigrants.
The bedrock here is racism. White Nationalism against "those people".
Any conversation about AA that doesn't include that reality is pointless.
I don't disagree with that assessment of the detainees at all. Along the southern border they are overwhelmingly from Mexico or Central/South America and other places around the world where they have found easier access across that southern border. So it stands to reason that most, not all, will be "non-white".
That does not change the fact / reality that they have crossed the border and/or remained here illegally, without proper documents, and THAT is the reason for their detention. Those here legally with proper documentation, seeking asylum via proper channels, or who have become properly naturalized citizens, are generally not being detained even though they might share the same race or ethnicity as those who are here illegally. So, clearly race or appearance is NOT the reason for their detention. How is that not abundantly clear?
My understanding is that those white folks fleeing South Africa are seeking asylum under the refugee program. Which is fine, but I agree that they should not be given any special priority or treatment over any others seeking asylum under the same program. That is a separate issue in my mind from the illegal immigration detention issue, but an important one I agree.
"Reason for" and "justification for" are two different notions.
Race is the reason for detaining nie-blanke. Illegal entry is the justification for it.
Indeed they can be. Let's unpack that argument further, shall we?
Google AI summarizes the difference between the two quite well:
So reasons are intended to explain an action, but they can sometimes be subjective, emotional, or just plain wrong. They are often not justifications for a given action.
Justifications on the other hand are explanations based on objective facts, evidence, logic, and explain why an action was appropriate, necessary, or right based on moral, ethical or legal grounds.
The action we have been discussing here for which a reason or justification is sought is the detention of undocumented immigrants. I pointed out the indisputable fact that the vast majority of undocumented immigrants in the U.S. (95%+ according to most sources) are indeed considered "non-white", which is clearly a consequence of the origin from which they came, not the alleged bigotry of those who are legal citizens or those charged with enforcement of immigration law. Again, it stands to reason that most of the detained will be "non-white".
You have contended that the reason for their detention is race, going so far as to say, "The bedrock here is racism" (a subjective and emotional view at best). While I have contended that their illegal immigration status (an objective fact or evidence) is the reason, and can under proper circumstances and conditions be the justification, for their detention and potential deportation.
Your contention appears to involve at least a couple of logical fallacies, specifically it is an informal Causal Fallacy, and it involves the formal fallacy of Affirming the Consequent. It is a Causal Fallacy because it implies a direct cause and effect and it ignores other factors involved in immigration enforcement. It also oversimplifies and misrepresents the complex issue of immigration enforcement. It is a faulty or hasty generalization, aka Affirming the Consequent, as it implies that because some individuals of a particular race are detained, race is the primary reason for detention, overlooking other factors like criminal history or immigration violations.
As an aside, may I ask why you insist on using the term "nie-blanke" in a discussion of U.S. immigration policy?
On the contrary.
I use nie-blanke because we must get used to apartheid vocabulary for our new apartheid state.
Oh, my bad Bob. I thought we might be having a serious conversation here. But congratulations, you have managed to bundle several logical fallacies into a single statement this time. Google AI has done a bang up job of summarizing them:
Can we have a serious discussion Bob, or are we wasting our time here?
and here i thought all that was happening was calling people racists ( which lost its power years ago) but in just a different language ..... i did look it up when it was first used .
... requires openness to the possibility that the other party is right. It requires inquiry more than declaration. Listening and learning at least as much as declaiming and teaching.
You say you want a serious discussion, but you open with attacks.
So... I cannot answer "Can we have a serious discussion?". It's up to you.
I couldn’t agree more, but that openness must go both ways, and both parties must make an honest, rational and logical argument for what they think is “right”.
Indeed, that is why I asked you several questions to try and understand where you were coming from and what you meant about the morality of AA and detention in general. And when declarations are made they need to be rational, reasonable and well supported. Some of yours were not my friend and my pointing that out is not an attack, it is part of the discussion. The Google AI conclusion about your last declaration regarding your reason for using the term “nie-blanke” was spot on:
Such statements are clearly not conducive to serious or intellectually honest discussion.
Indeed. I have listened and learned from you despite what you may think. In our discussion I did concede several points and agreed with aspects of AA and the detention process that might be immoral and require correction. Do you feel that you learned anything from me? I tried to be rational, reasonable and accurate with my arguments, did any of them make sense to you?
Honest inquiry, and logical response / rebuttal are hardly an attack Bob. Nor is pointing out the use of logical fallacy. I have been guilty of those myself from time to time and I appreciate others here who have pointed that out for me.
No Bob, it truly is up to both of us.
OK. Let's start over. I jumped into your conversation with Drak:
Alligator Alcatraz is legal. We agree on that. The state of Florida legally created it. I believe it's immoral.
It's immoral, IMNAAHO, because its function is to support the institutional racism of the MAGA movement. Racism is immoral.
Also, IMNAAHO, that racism permeates MAGA. Under the pretext of "anti-DEI", the Trump Administration is erasing nie-blanke history in America. Pushing nie-blankes to the margins. As I see current events, this is flagrant, and bears no discussion.
If what I see as a flood on information, every day, proving MAGA's fundamental racism is not apparent to you, then we probably do not have enough common ground for any serious discussion.
No argument here.
Look I understand the concerns about some of Trump's policies and EOs that cause folks to opine that they are racist or insensitive to those who are impacted by them. I get that, and I agree with much of it, within reason. I am by no means a fan of Trump myself, and like you I have never and would never vote for him or anyone like him. But I do not think it is appropriate to insist that we are now living in an apartheid state.
While I dislike the idea of prioritizing DEI criteria over that of meritocracy in some settings, I too feel that Trump went WAY overboard on his anti-DEI agenda especially threatening to block funding for certain state programs, and threatening businesses in the same way if they maintain their own DEI policies. He has back-tracked on some of it and I think the courts will block much of his other orders as well. There is no way he is going to be able to "erase" the history of all the great American citizens of color who have helped build and strengthen this great nation as you suggested.
But my reasonable, logical side cannot agree with your statement about AA as written, because that is simply NOT the primary function of that facility. It was built for a very specific purpose and that is to serve as a temporary holding center for undocumented immigrants, particularly those designated as “criminal aliens” by the Florida Attorney General, with the overarching goal of facilitating mass deportations and alleviating pressure on existing detention infrastructure, functioning as a “one-stop shop” for processing and potential removal under current immigration law. It's primary function is no different than any other immigration detention center built for the same purpose during many of the administrations before Trump's. As I mentioned before, detentions did nothing but increase during the Biden administration, and Trump has yet to match Obama's deportation levels. This facility will render the same exact results that others like it have in the past couple decades, and it is temporary.
To the extent that the facility is run consistent with current immigration law, and the conditions are humane, and legal access is provided to ensure timely due process, it will be no more immoral than any facility like it was before under the same immigration laws. If it turns out that it is not run in such a manner then I agree we will have a moral obligation to insist that it is, and that corrections are made.
The fact that in doing its job, performing its function, AA might be seen as supporting the current administration's policies is upsetting for many and I get that, but that is NOT its primary function. And that warrants discussion IMHO.
Lastly, current immigration law has been in place for several decades now, and I think it is accurate to say that the lack of proper enforcement and border security over many years has brought us to this point where we have north of 11 million undocumented immigrants living here without authorization, some for over a decade. At the same time there are close to 40 million foreign-born immigrants who are here legally or who have become naturalized citizens living and working in this country much to our benefit. To the extent that we have encouraged or allowed the former path, we have caused the situation that exists now, and yet those who wish to better enforce the law now are being branded as bigots or racists or immoral. Do you think that is entirely fair? I do not. That is not to say that we can't do things better now that we are in this situation. I think at this point we need to simplify the law, and perhaps figure out better alternatives to detention in the process. I touched on this thought earlier but you offered no reply.
I understand this approach, but it seems to assume a congruity of law and morality that I do not believe exists in MAGAland. Alligator Alcatraz is legal. It was voted on by the Florida legislature. That's unquestionable.
My thesis is that "legal" does not mean "moral". The Dutch family who hid Anne Frank were "breaking the law". Martin Luther and his American namesake both spent much of their lives "breaking the law". Mahatma Gandhi "broke the law". Nelson Mandela spent long years in prison for "breaking the law".
If the law is evil, then invoking it cannot be "good".
Let's try another approach.
Would AA exist if the Trump Administration's racist policies did not exist?
IMNAAHO, there's a clear chain of causation:
I understand that Bob and for the most part, I agree.
Potentially yes if another administration was as serious about better enforcing the law, and securing the border to slow furthering the problem, and the State of Florida agreed to help on a temporary basis as they did in this case.
For years other administrations have built such facilities for the same purpose, why weren’t they all considered evil, immoral, and racist too? We have had many opportunities to fix this problem over many years and many administrations, chances to enforce or change the laws and improve the process, but we have punted and even enacted policies that have made it much worse and encouraged even more illegal immigration. Not just Trump, Republicans, or MAGA, all of our representatives over the last several decades have created the situation we face today.
How was the alleged “overwhelmingly “nie-blanke” detention” any less overwhelming in the past several decades? It clearly wasn’t, again simply due to the origin from whence the vast majority of undocumented immigrants came.
I understand the urge to blame it all on the racism of Trump and MAGA and not consider their attempts to better enforce the law, but these issues were created for years and have been brewing for decades. I will agree, however, that some of the Trump administration’s methods and rhetoric are very offensive, and that they could have considered other alternates to detention in the enforcement of the law and perhaps even changes to the provisions of the law itself, just like other administrations and congresses could have in the past.
Again... IMNAAHO, the topic isn't fundamentally "preserving the borders". The topic is fundamentally, stopping "those people".
Previous administrations expelled illegal immigrants, but they didn't use secret-police-style tactics. Law enforcement officers showed badges when they arrested illegal immigrants whose rights to trial were then respected. That was "protecting the borders"... legally and morally.
ICE behaves like the worst secret police, arresting people for their appearance, ripping families apart, and generally trying to instill terror in nie-blanke communities, illegal or not. People are expelled without due process. While AA is legal, those expulsions are not.
No! Warrant-less arrests, on the basis of skin color... are not "better enforcement". They are illegal as well as immoral. They are wrong.
Not if "those people" are undocumented immigrants who are here illegally in direct violation of our countries laws and right to "preserve it's borders". That is the situation, hence these discussions/topics are inextricably linked. If it were only about stopping or expelling "those people" in a racial or ethnic sense, how do you explain the fact that there are 40 million foreign-born immigrants of the same race/ethnicity who are here legally or who have become properly naturalized citizens who are not currently being sought, detained, or expelled?
To the extent that this is found to be true (both of past enforcement and of current), I don't entirely disagree. Like I said before, I am not a fan of many of Trump's methods, tactics, and rhetoric. I agree he could have approached it differently and so could those in the past who allowed the problem to expand to 11 million undocumented immigrants.
These things are debatable (especially the expelled without due process part, which is central to the detention part of the debate), and prone to exaggeration, as we have discussed here and on several other articles in the past few months. In some cases we will agree, in others perhaps not. I feel we have run our course on this aspect and might indeed need to agree to disagree on the remainder.
We have already covered this and I have agreed that if it were based on skin color alone, and there was no evidence that those they sought were here illegally, then of course that would be immoral and wrong. But there is evidence that in most cases ICE will have probable cause, they have been targeting those they know are here illegally, and that in most cases they have shown a badge or identified who they were, all evidenced by the fact that they have detained only those who are here illegally. There is no evidence that in general those here legally or who are properly naturalized citizens are being detained or deported. Sure there may be some anecdotal evidence of misidentification, or arrest of those who assaulted officers who were doing their job, but those incidents are certainly not the goal of the enforcement effort.
Lastly, I should apologize for my use of the term "better" in my description of the current enforcement effort. What I meant was, their attempts to more thoroughly enforce the law, compared to past efforts of enforcement that have led to the current 11 million undocumented immigrants in the first place. I should be clearer and more precise with my terminology as I certainly did not mean that Trumps tactics, methods and rhetoric are "better", as we have already covered. It is no more accurate in my mind than using the term "apartheid" to describe our current immigration laws or situation. So I apologize for that.
This has been a good conversation... but I I think we've come to the end.
We've reached the point where we understand each other's thoughts, and we've identified a fundamental point of disagreement. Unless one of us perceives additional information to shift that point, I think we should stop here.
Agreed. Thanks for the discussion Bob.
it's going to be hilarious when this prison is populated only with maga in 4 years ...
[deleted] [✘] Alligator Alcatraz is nothing like Dachau. The apt comparison would be with Manzanar and Japanese detention camps during the same war. And the US Army constructed and guarded those ten detention camps, Mr. Army guy.
The ten concentration camps built to detain Japanese immigrants and citizens were constructed in remote areas with harsh climates, too. The Japanese weren't convicted of any crimes, either. The Japanese who were detained were in the United States legally. And they were denied an American identity.
But those were Franklin Delano Roosevelt's concentration camps. Was Roosevelt a NAZI? Did Roosevelt turn the United States into fascist Germany?
A racist antisemite, but not a [NAZI][✘]
And probably a xenophobic, misogynistic fascist.
bing copilot
How many white people do you think there are imprisoned in alligator alcatraz ?
I havent seen a single video of ICE knocking on the door of a white illegal immigrant.
Sigh.....that's because it won't fit the narrative that is required to fool the ignorant left. All people south of the border are not alike, What about the people from the middle east? do democrats really think all "brown" people are the same?
20% of Hispanics self-identify as white. The DEI racial expectations would be 1 in 5. Of course, that is not based upon reality.
Russian and Ukrainian illegals have been deported.
ERROL GREEN
FREDLY FORESTAL
GARRY LEANDRE
GERSON CATUN CHEN
HARI KONERU
IMRAN RZAEV
INAL SEKOV
JEAN CHARLES
KINSKE SAINT VILUS
You can never tell for sure by a name, but these current detainees say that White people are in detention at the Florida facility.
Great derail, George. The seed doesn't mention the nationalities of the prisoners there.
Please read the seed and Comment on topic.
The seed does not mention nationalities. They are irrelevant. Rule of law is the topic. Human rights is the topic. Fascism ruling America is the topic.
Nobody derailed, the seed is about a concentration camp that only exists in some people's imagination and, "Anyone who says otherwise is a fool, or a willful participant in disseminating propaganda".
It is not happening. We are not headed there. Only over the top TDS sufferers think it is.
So...fiction. We all know fascism isn't happening outside of the minds of the gullible left.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and clogs your pool filter with down...get out your shotgun because It's a duck.
I resent like hell that this fascist owned and operated concentration camp is funded with FEMA money. Just who is pocketing the massive over-run anyway? Trump?
Nerm... Could you, just once, tell us if you approve or disapprove of something? The topic here isn't who did what three-quarters of a century ago. The topic is, who is doing what NOW. TODAY.
Do you approve, Nerm?
I approve of deporting immigrants who commit crimes. That is the law. Domestic violence and child abuse are especially egregious. Drug trafficking is far too serious to warrant leniency. Recidivism for petty crimes is valid justification for deportation.
I approve of deporting immigrants who have committed the felony crime of reentering the country after deportation. That is the law. IMO deportation would be preferable to incarceration which is a permissible criminal punishment under the law.
Detention centers are necessary for enforcing immigration law. Alligator Alcatraz is a temporary detention center similar to others found in the southwestern United States. Alligator Alcatraz is not a permanent facility like La Palma Correctional Center.
I disapprove of misleading propaganda deliberately intended to persuade people that the United States is on the same path as Germany in the 1930s. As I pointed out, the United States had its own concentration camps for detaining Japanese-American immigrants and citizens. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was not a fascist, wasn't turning the United States into NAZI Germany, but still used the military to round up and detain Japanese-Americans in detention centers for the duration of the war.
Yes? No?
You asked if I approved, I answered in the affirmative. Was my answer to your question too blunt?
We have recent examples of the consequences of detaining, deporting, encamping and disseminating millions of people who were already an unwelcomed diaspora of refugees...
Just Google, "The Holocaust"...
I have. Today's immigration enforcement inside the United States has very, very little in common with the Holocaust.
The Holocaust was the systematic genocidal extermination of the Jewish race in Europe. The Vichy French, in unoccupied France, participated in the Holocaust but they were not NAZIs. Collaborators in occupied territories of Netherlands, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Ukraine participated in the Holocaust but they were not NAZIs. In fact, the persecution and killing of Jews really started in Eastern European countries of Ukraine and Belarus before the German NAZIs began their 'final solution'. Not all those responsible for the Holocaust were NAZIs or fascists.
Immigration enforcement today in the United States is not targeting specific races or ethnicities. ICE is targeting specific individuals for deportation. Not everyone detained by ICE is deported. No one is being exterminated. There is no genocide underway. And nothing indicates there will be a genocide. ICE is currently enforcing immigration laws concerning deportation that have been in place for decades.
Comparing immigrant deportation to the Holocaust is ludicrous. The comparison is a mockery of anti-Semitism and the true history of the Holocaust.
I don’t think you understand what the holocaust was if you believe it was about deporting ten million people.
in your world, does Obama Deporting three million constitute genocide?
Are you sure, Nerm?
That seems to mean that you approve of this concentration camp. At the same time, you apparently disapprove FDR's Nisei camps. Taken together, those imply that your approval depends on who is doing the imprisoning...
It is targeting all nie-blanks. Denying that is akin to denying that the Earth is round.
What concentration camp? Alligator Alcatraz is described by both the Florida government and Federal government as a temporary facility for rapidly processing immigrants for deportation. Alligator Alcatraz is not permanent housing for incarceration.
ICE operates over 200 detention centers in a number of states. Both the Obama administration and Biden administration authorized temporary detention centers to deal with surges of illegal entries into the United States.
Alligator Alcatraz is an immigrant detention center constructed on the grounds of the Dade-Collier Training and Transition Airport (KTNT) in Ochopee, Florida. As noted by Wikipedia, KTNT was originally intended to be a large international airport on a 39 square mile tract of land. Only one runway was constructed but that runway can accommodate a Boeing 747. According to the Miami Herald report, Alligator Alcatraz is intended to include an immigration court to allow rapid processing of detainees and operate deportation flights from the airport.
Why would the Trump administration be targeting all South African Black people? Apartheid wasn't about removing the Black population from South Africa. Apartheid wasn't about exterminating the Black population.
The nie-blankes were cheap labor who couldn't vote but were required to pay taxes. Democrats have sung praises for illegal immigration using the same reasoning used by white Afrikaners to justify apartheid.
The problem being that ICE is taking low hanging fruit that is just here to pick crops and work jobs Americans won't; like they've been doing for generations. The price of watermelon and cantaloupe has gone through the roof and melon growers are losing their asses.
Just like Trump, ICE quotas are insane and are hurting the USA!
We have melon / porto every day (it's in season).
Oh, wait... we're in France and the melons are from Spain...
[✘]
When was the last time the US deported ten million refugees?
Never...
The last time a country did that it ended up in The Holocaust!
Isn't that close to what Democrats deported? Funny that you are silent about the deportations.
And we're not going to do it now.
Actually most of the Jews (& Roma) living in Europe at the time would have been better off if they were deported!
I agree! The problem was America turned them away! People knew, Roosevelt knew, what was happening to Jews and Gypsies and homosexuals in Germany, but the US government played dumb to the end...
This is why under international law it is illegal to turn refugees away without due process today. Is that out the door now?
Somewhere an American child and her family are hiding in an attic. They will be found and deported back to those they fled with nothing to be abused and killed.
I really hope she writes an autobiography.
Deportation Tsar Steven Millerhe intends to deport twenty million!
And Trump intends to get Mexico to pay for a wall.
AOC intends to socialize health insurance.
My pastor intends to get me to quit drinking whiskey, cussing, and smoking cigars.
Who cares? None of that is going to happen.
The Obama Administration deported about 5 million people . Without breaking the law.
The Trump Administration has stated several times that its objective is at least twice that, over ten million. They have ignored the law several times, already, and they've hardly begun.
The Trump Administration has declared that to be the objective... many times.
Are they lying?
ICE just got 100 billion dollars to do it.
Do you not care, Jack? You, personally? Your government says it wants to deport twenty million people. Do you really not care?
You're going to need to make up your mind.
EITHER Trump lies with every breath OR we should take his statements seriously. You can't have both.
That is your false dichotomy. MAGA logic!
Let's first understand that I have learned to put a great deal of distance between what American politicians SAY and my expectations of actual outcomes.
So do I care what they say? It varies. How much I care about what they say is directly related to how probable I believe the actual implementation is.
My degree is in mathematics, so I have a pretty keen sense of smell for bullshit numbers. 20 million deported is completely a bullshit number. It's a numerical impossibility. There is no chance whatsoever. He may as well have said we intend to relocate these people to Mars by the end of next week.
If we zoom out and take any sort of objective look at Trump's patterns of behavior, it becomes clear that all of this is for show (like DOGE). He and his people are pandering to their base in the initial phases of his term, just like all presidents do. His hard core base want this, so they're going to get the "shock and awe" they think they want.
The high probability outcome for this "round up the illegals" push is that they start rounding up US citizens by mistake and the SCOTUS shuts this down like cops at a frat party. I think that probably happens before the end of the year. The most significant real effect of the "Greatest Show on ICE" is that it scares off newcomers from south of the border. We've already seen that measurable data.
In the larger picture, if you start caring about much of what politicians say, you end up a very anxious and unhappy person for no reason. Just think about the endless barrage of bullshit that you could allow to consume your life. You don't need to look beyond this very forum to see that on display.
Politicians make their living telling a small set of usually fairly crazy minions the fantasies they want to hear. Why on earth would anyone put much value in that?
Keep trying. You'll figure it out eventually.
Of course I can. He lies constantly, and then acts irrationally. I doubt he or his minions have any notion of "truth".
OK. We have two possibilities for "20 million": the Trump Administration knows it's lying, or doesn't. Dishonest or incompetent. Playing just their faithful for fools, or daring ALL Americans to care.
Do you care?
Yes. So you know better than to believe what he says. At least I hope you do. That was the point.
I think they know they can't do 20 million. I think it's sales talk. Kinda like when you test drive a car and the salesman says "it's as smooth as sitting in your living room". It's not. He knows it's not. You know it's not. He knows you know it's not. You know he knows you know it's not. etc. etc.
Playing to their faithful.... who know better than to take him literally.
No.
Not really. No.
Again, caring about all the bullshit he spins is a full time job, and is utterly pointless. If I started caring about what he and his team says, I'd be in a constant state of hysteria, worked up about everything from Greenland to the Gulf of Mexico.
No. Whether to trust him hasn't been a serious question for a while.
My question is, do you care?
That's not the question. No one cares about the bullshit he spins. Many of us care that he spins it without consequence. The American government lying constantly to us American people, without consequence, ... is something we probably should care about.
So WTF are we talking about? Why do you keep asking if people care?
So you do care. Why didn't you care about it a year ago?
Get your information correct before you start posting Bob -
"The budget for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is approximately $11.3 billion for Fiscal Year 2026, according to Homeland Security (.gov). This includes funding for operations, support, and other related activities. In addition to the discretionary funding, ICE also has mandatory funding from fees, bringing the total estimated spending authority to a higher figure."
Wouldn't $11.3 Billion fall a tad short of your imaginary $100 BILLION - maybe by 'bout $88.7 Billion????[✘]
‘Why didn't you care about it a year ago? ’
It was ‘D’ifferent back then.
Whataboutism? Bothsidesism? What?
Could you please be explicit?
Those are terms liberals use when they need to deflect attention away from their rampaging hypocrisy.
I'm 59 years old. I don't remember a time when at least some members of my government weren't lying to me pretty constantly.
But if you want a very recent specific, a year ago government officials were swearing publicly that Joe Biden was the picture of health, mentally sharp as a tack and completely in charge at the WH. We all knew better, and now even the most sympathetic media people have confirmed that he was none of those things.
My Democratic friends absolutely refuse to think about the now confirmed idea that our country was being run by a totally unelected person or persons, and that probably went on for nearly 2 years.
Do you care? Did you care at the time? If you did care, I don't recall you ever mentioning it. Maybe you did and I just missed it, and if so, I applaud your lack of hypocrisy.
Bob - do you know who/what the American Immigration Council is???
Think you might need to go find actual sources who are not scapegoats for the Illegals
Bill would pour $100 billion into ICE and border enforcement
In terms of immigration, the bill stands to significantly expand the capabilities of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and Customs and Border Patrol (CBP).
ICE’s current annual budget is around $10 billion. Under the version of the bill that passed the Senate, the agency would receive an infusion of more than $100 billion through 2029: $45 billion for detention facilities, $46 billion for border wall operations in the U.S.-Mexico border and $14 billion for deportation operations.
The agency, which currently has about 6,000 deportation officers, would also receive billions of dollars more to hire an additional 10,000 new agents by 2029.
Your "dream figure" of $100B is tentatively set for up to and including 2029 at $25 Billion a year - with is a $17 Billion over present day budgeting - per year - not $100 Billion.
Learn the facts - not the histrionics
[✘]
It's a response to a direct question asked by the seeder. So if that's not on topic, I'm not sure what is.
When did the US eradicate 10 million people?
Deporting is not eradicating.
C'mon, Jack! I expect better from you.
Are you really comparing lies about the President's health - a tradition going back at least to Wilson - with this Administration's lies about... everything??
Are you really going with standard MAGA "if you did something sorta wrong, then we're authorized to do worse"??
The morality / ethicality of an act is not determined by other acts. I'm surprised that you would invoke such an argument. I expect better from you.
You should expect me to identify bullshit without regard to the politics of the person selling it.
When that lie creates a clear and massive violation of the Constitution, absolutely. We're not talking about hiding FDR's wheelchair. We're talking about a POTUS who was very obviously incapable of making the necessary decisions to execute the duties of the office.
You're making that up all on your own.
It is telling that you believe a series of obvious exaggerations and idiocies is more egregious than a coordinated lie that completely circumvents the principles of self governance.
You can either care about both of these things, care about neither, or be a raving hypocrite.
Why is it, when progressives can't come up with a justification for their position or a counterargument for the other guy's, they always resort to projection and then use it to attempt to shame people, as if that's actually going to make them change their mind or suddenly see the light or something?
Biden??
But Trump is OK?
Jack, you are s-o-o-o frustrating...
Ummm......Drak??
You're projecting.
Exactly which laws have they ignored?
C'mon...
You know I'm done with that game.
So you can't show what laws are being ignored. Your claim nothing but fiction. I REALLY wish I could say I'm surprised but it's become all too frequent.
Your pastor has goals and you have the right to resist those goals
Does he try to get you to love your neighbor? If not, then he's not worth listening to.
Absolutely.
It's my wife's goals that are proving to be the problem.
lol
Whole sermon on it yesterday. BTW, he's one of the most prominent Baptists in America.
Various quotes/points from yesterday:
A lot of that has been culture in our church for a while, but it was good to hear it officially.
He also made a comment along the lines of our church needing to become more diverse, but I don't remember the exact verbiage. (He's not wrong.) People supported that pretty enthusiastically.
Yes.
Never said that.
Not sorry.
This is about behavior, not ideology. Egregious acts are not justifiable because they match one ideology or another.
We either care about lies or we don't. We either care about defying the Constitution or we don't. We either care about riots or we don't. We either care about racism or we don't.
Only caring about something when "the other side" is doing it is simply wearing a neon "hypocrite" sign.
I think there is a lesson to be learned here by all of us.
My pastor is seriously one of the most prominent Baptist pastors in America. He holds a significant office within the denomination, to which he's been re-elected. He is a gold standard for mainstream Southern Baptist leadership.
Now, I realize the things he said from the pulpit yesterday morning bear zero resemblance to the expectations most people have of Southern Baptists. There are other ideas people may not expect. My wife is an ordained deacon. About half of our deacons are women. We have women who work in pastoral roles, and we give them the title.
The expectation we get about that group is based on the small, vocal, extremist minority that make themselves newsworthy through their craziness.
That's also true about most groups of people. A small group of whackjobs get on the news and people fall into the trap of thinking they're representative of tens of millions when that's just impossible.
It's easy to vilify blanketly any group you don't think you agree with. It's also lazy.
I'd love to believe that... but I see results of votes by national SB instances that tell me the opposite.
Still... it's good to know that not all SBs burn crosses...
Let's keep in mind the fact that only the crazies are newsworthy.
You will never hear about the 999 sane decisions. You'll only ever hear about the 1 that seems crazy.
I've seeded many times from slacktivist. Fred Clark was raised in fundamentalism. He regularly posts on what's going on in the evangelical world. So I actually do know a bit about what's going on there.
No movement is monolithic. So it's good to hear about your church.
But think about this: If your primary (unique) source concerning SB goings-on happens to be in a small minority of genuinely Christian SB congregations... then your perception may be biased.
Slacktivist is free...
Why do you think they're a small minority?
As I said, I do in fact follow SB goings-on, at least diffidently. My impression - a strong one - is that most SB congregations are not what I personally would qualify as "Christian", the filter being "love your neighbor NO EXCEPTIONS". Since SB congregations are independent - free to follow whatever path they wish, within pretty wide limits - it's to be expected that there's a spectrum of SBs.
So maybe my - strong - impression is wrong. That would be good.
Like... Unit 731 ?
There are only three toilets and sinks for dozens and dozens of inmates. Reports from the camp say they are being fed spoiled fruit, moldy bread, ham or cheese sandwiches and little else. Swarms of mosquitoes are everywhere. Inmates are covered in festering bites.
Totally unsupported bullshit fiction.
Your sauce is really weak, bitter, and runny lately. Not sure why you continue to feed us this idiotic rubbish
One leftist Florida lawmaker stated there were two toilets for about 30 detainees. So what?
When I was in the Navy, on aircraft carriers, there were about 6 toilets and sinks for about 80to 100 sailors, and with that head being in a main passageway, it was used by pretty much anyone walking by.
If American sailors can tolerate those conditions, the illegals can tolerate what they are getting.
More than likely, however, stories by the left are bullshit, and are only used to generate more violence against ICE
Here is a solution, wave your extradition rights and go home, then you can piss and shit wherever you want.
This blogger apparently never went out with our military on training exercises to Fort Polk Louisiana or Fort Irwin California.
It's even more obvious he never was with our military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
[✘]
Those clowns usually fall into 1 of 2 groups.
Neither one are useful by any stretch.
And don't forget # 3,-- those that claimed they had "bone spurs".
And there's #4 - "asthma"
The melodrama never seems to cease.
Of course. Riiiiiight. It's all just like Dachau.
Pay no attention to the air conditioning.
FFS.
Do you approve?
Yes?
No?
Do I approve of what, specifically?
And I/we should not expect anything less from this tripe -
1758 - U.S. established the "first" reservation in NJ.
In 1786, the U.S. then established more "reservations" to keep those "savages" where they belong.
"Savages"??? - " He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions."
Then, there's the 1850 - 1887 - period -
Oh yeah - and Bob -
US history from 1758? Oh....
Other than your gratuitous insults, I totally agree with the substance of your Comment. The abuse of Native Americans by White invaders was well documented by the turn of the 20th Century. There seems to be no doubt that Whites' methods for exterminating Native Americans were copied by the Nazis.
So... all that having been said... do you, personally, approve of Aligator Alcatraz? Simple yes or no.
"It’s Official: Our Country Now Has Its First Concentration Camp"
Your declaration - I answered by "showing" that the U. S. had "concentration camps" over 250 years ago.[✘]
I wonder , can Ellis island also be considered a concentration camp?
Pretty positive if Trump goes through with reopening it, the leftists will automatically use those words.
They do what their dear leaders tell them to
Sorry I was thinking Alcatraz but the thought process remains the same, no matter where.
I didn't write the article.
Are really insisting on US history from 1758?
Do you ever post anything that isn't mirroring something a progressive previously posted?
Something original?
Oh, wait... original...
[deleted][✘]
You're correct - the U.S. WASN'T the U.S. in 1758. They were the "Continental Dudes" back then.
But, the point (my point) is that the newbies from Euro started the Reservation/Concentration process over 150 years before Hitler was even born - which is still 250 years before your exaggerated thread/seed.
Didn't say you did.
Is that an apology to all of us?
No, it was a port of entry where personal IDs and health of third class and steerage passengers were checked, people were quarantined in at the hospital only if they were sick. Most people were threw and on to New York within to hours.
Ist and 2nd class passengers did not go through the process.
2% were denied entry and were usually returned to the home country in a matter of days.
In a few rare cases, legal detainees waited months to clear up entry issues and worked as volunteers at the hospital for food and bed.
There was no mass incarceration at Ellis Island.
There were also no immigrants bypassing the legal port of entry, swimming up the Hudson trying to sneak in at Hoboken.
They were full-on BRITISH, in the midst of a world war against France. If you're going to give (inaccurate) history lessons, you should try to at least know the basics.
Do you consider "said" to mean something so different from "declared"???
So... when 98% get in legally, none come in illegally!
Hooda thunk it!
Exactly.
I've been saying for years now we need to raise the work visa limits.
The only reason these people are illegal is because we declare it so, and the only reason we do that is because there are more votes in ongoing problems than there are solved ones.
Every POTUS since Clinton could have done that. But it's easier to get us out to the voting booth when they can claim there's a crisis.
Spot on. The entire immigration system needs to be overhauled but there is no political will to do so as each side would rather maintain the system that allows them to hammer the other side. When the prevailing believe of a politician is that the other side is the enemy, there is little chance of improvement.
Damn, Jack!
Every time I think I've got you figured... you go and say something unexpectedly intelligent...
Do you see a solution?
Uh, they were called 1st class and 2nd class passengers, you know, the desirable ones who could afford it.
They simply disembarked the ships and went straight into NYC regardless of health or what language they spoke.
The system favored the wealthy and light skinned, not the poor or darker types.
Those who knew they would not be admitted without papers or money often worked as sailors on the big passenger lines. They were the ship jumpers. Ship jumpers, did exactly that as the steamers made final approaches, many, especially Greeks, jumped in to swim or lowered ship made rafts and paddled for Jersey City, Brooklyn or Manhattan.
Damn Bob. An intelligent person would reevaluate their expectations.
Not any time soon, no.
I thought we had a chance when I saw Elon having an influence on Trump. Say what you want about him, he's good at math, and the math on immigration and birth rates in developed countries is pretty ugly. I was hoping (albeit pessimistically), that the concept of "math" might creep in to the political sphere.
Alas.
TBF, "the ones who can afford it" is a separate visa class for the vast majority of countries.
All systems have always favored the wealthy.
The fact that you equate successful people with light skin is something you might consider evaluating objectively. Have you thought about why such a correlation might exist?
Did you read that article? This was our collective history, nothing less, nothing more.
Have you ever reviewed the immigration laws which banned the Greeks, the Chinese?
The history of the Texas Rangers, the Diablo Tejano's that killed thousands of Hispnaics, Tejano's and Chinese immigrants?
But thanks for making it personal again /S
The people who protected Texans from the Comanche? Very!
National heroes. You should read up on what the comanche did to kids. Not good.
So what exactly is your point here?
Are we supposed to just spin in an endless circle of national self- flagellation over things that happened long before any of us were born?
The point we left some time ago was that Ellis Island wasn't a concentration camp. Neither is this thing they've built in Big Cypress. The whole "concentration camp" parallel is just another steaming pile of melodrama, to go along with the endless cries of "fascism", "Nazi", or any reference to Anne Frank.
Yes, we fast tracked immigration for rich people. News flash... we still do. So does nearly every other country on the planet. What's your point?
How about it Jack?
That isn't happening now, and pretending otherwise is fucking moronic melodrama.
That's a joke, right??
Reevaluating expectations is unAmerican.
The key word being "now".
You should read up on what the Texas rangers did to anyone whose path they crossed.
When Anne Frank was discovered she was sent to a German run camp in the Netherlands (It was called "Westerbork" ). But it was merely a "transit camp" established by the Nazis to imprison the Jews (and other "undesirables") while they were waiting to be sent to the extermination camps.
She died of typhus in the concentration camp where she was permanently interned. but I can't remember which one. I want to say Ravensbruck?
Evening..it was at Bergen-Belsen.
Thank-you, Shona
I’m curious if any leftist here can give true examples of similarities between Alligator Alcatraz and actual concentration camps throughout history.
Curious to see what makes a leftist mind think like this.
Yes, you are curious.
So you can't.
Shock!!!!! I'm surprised!!!! s/
Pro tip to all the illegal jackasses currently in the US, if you don’t want to go to Alligator Alcatraz go home, you have no right to be here.
Why is the concept of a concentration camp considered something new for the America that created internment camps during WW2, and Guantanamo Bay more recently?
Its not something new for the USA.
my other thoughts and opinions about the article and the title i shall keep to myself.
Many of us are doing just that
Agreed.
Just checked-- this seed has 173 comments-- my guess is that many of those comments are from people who want to keep their thoughts and opinions to themselves.
Did you omit a sarcasm tag my friend? Certainly people don't come to venues like this to keep their opinions to themselves. Unfortunately, many have no interest in hearing or considering other opinions either. There is some truth to the following meme, and it would be refreshing if more folks could take it upon themselves to see to it that this cowboy ain't talking about them.
Really? Is that why they shared their thoughts then?
People don’t come to sites like this to keep their opinions to themselves?
Well if that be the case, then certainly you should have no trouble telling us what Katpen’s opinions are! (What are her political views)???
#Katpen
I do recall some very thoughtful comments from Katpen on various articles in the past. I haven't seen her comment in quite some time though, hope she is well.
Was she the author of one of the 173 comments on this seed that you were talking about in 9.1.3 (perhaps I missed it)? If so, how would that be an example of her keeping her thoughts or opinions to herself? If she is not represented in the 173 comments, then perhaps on this seed anyway, you are correct, she kept her thoughts and opinions to herself.
In retrospect, I should have phrased my comment differently: "Certainly most people don't come to venues like this to keep their opinions to themselves." My apologies. Still, few whose comments were among the 173 you mentioned were keeping their thoughts or opinions to themselves, hence my poor attempt at humor.
I am certainly interested in hearing other people's opinions about specific issues, and their basis for them. But interested in sussing out their political views, not so much.
Guess nobody wants to answer my question, but then it's probably what some want to keep to themselves, as a couple have already said.
That’s because there is no point to it.
I’ll speak for myself (and likely others here) in that attempting to compare a detention center of illegal aliens in Florida, until they get an immigration hearing, is simply foolish. Especially when the term “concentration camp” brings to mind the extermination/labor camps run by Germany in WW-2 or perhaps the forced detention centers of legal Chinese Muslims in China.
It’s a ridiculous comparison. The reason I believe there is no point to discussing it is because I’m about 99% sure you won’t agree.
So there it is.
Well, that's the way social; media sites on the Internet operate-- if there's even one person who disagrees with someone else the conversation is immediately stopped!
There is never, ever any disagreements in discussions on the Internet-- people aren't allowed to do that!
Do they also have any illegal Muslims in China?
How would I know?
Buzz are you referring to your question about Guaranamo Bay or the Interment camps for Japanese-American citizens during WWII?
I don’t know why people don’t want to talk about them.
I could be wrong … but possibly it’s because most (many?) people here aren’t aware of them?
???!
How would you know if there are those sorts of Muslims in China?
Well that’s a good question!
And I myself don’t know how you would know!
Different people do or do not know things for different reasons. I know a fair amount re: the Muslims in China. How do I know?
Well in my case it’s because I am an extremely curious 🧐 person!!! Always have been. But many other people might not be particularly curious but know for different reasons . . .
Since you don't know, then you shouldn't be commenting about legal or illegal Muslims in China.
There are more than 30 million Muslims in China, of whch around 11 million are Uyghurs. Most Muslims live normal lives, peaceful citizens of China. However,, among the Uyghurs there were a number of violent terrorist ones who, among other violent things, carried out a massacre of innocent civilians in a train station in Kunming, which is not where Uyghurs live. As well there are a number of Uyghurs who are fundamentalist separatists who were interfering with the peace, order and good government of Xinjiang Province. The terrorists were imprisioned, which is something any civilized country woutd do, and the separatiststs were detained in Re-education camps, taught different vocations so that they could support themselves for a better life. At this point in time it's possible that the only ones that are still imprisoned are the murdering terrorists.
The REAL Xinjiang Through a Thousand Voices
LINK -> The Real Xinjiang through a Thousand Voices - China Daily
Why not? People here comment about things they think they know, but don’t, every day. Like people here who spent some time in the US years ago, commenting like they understand what it’s like to live in the US today. Which they don’t.
That said, I’ll take Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch’s word over the CCP’s any day. China’s actions against the Uyghurs in the Xinjiang region arguably amount to ethnic cleansing of a population that has existed in China for millennia.
Any comparisons of illegal immigrant detention centers in Florida, with Uyghur situation in China is just ridiculous. Not even close to the same thing.
Then why did you do it, I didn't.
But you gave YOUR opinion, and the misinformation (or even intended DISinformation) of organizations, politicians and others that try to justify their existence by denigrating China. As a person living here, I know better.
And yes, it's true I've not been in the USA for about 18 years, but I'm in touch with my son who lives there, and I believe what he tells me. However, I guess you've never been to China......but you have an opinion about it.
And as noted, I’ll take Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch’s word over the CCP’s or yours any day.
Any day.
Can people voluntarily leave concentration camps? Can Uighurs leave the ones China puts them in at any time like those at Alligator Alcatraz can?
You know, I see little difference OF PRINCIPLE between what Israel's reaction to what Hamas did on the Oct 7th massacre, which you SUPPORT and China's reaction to the Kunming Railway Station massacre by the Uyghur terrorists (except that Israel's reaction was a lot more devestating than the detention reaction by China) which you CRITICIZE. I support both governments in what they have done because I'm not a hypocrite. Maybe those who have been criticizing China need a little REEDUCATION. Here is why China has MY support.
LINK -> Re-education camp in Xinjiang? Let's find out the truth - Chinadaily.com.cn
So, Sean, you can believe whatever you want and I'll believe whatever I want. In the meantime, I will continue to make ON TOPIC comments notwithstanding others throwing "whataboutisms" at me that are NOT on topic.
LOL. I didn't realize what you meant. I didn't iknow the prisoners had a choice to leave their families in America as they are returned to their home country without a right to return to America, tearing their families apart and leaving them to become homeless and starve.
And what do you think their chances for success would be?
Okay, tear the family from their homes, their jobs, their schools, their friends and relatives, their country of citizenship and dump them in a country that is strange to them and most likely more dangerous.
Yes, all of those are possible but, you broke the law. If you don't have an immigration law, you don't have a country. Please name the country where if you sneak in and don't get caught for a year, two, three, five, ten whatever you just become a citizen. That may sound harsh but, we have homeless citizens that receive less than someone illegal.
Years ago someone was stealing ladders off our service trucks. I recon’d our trucks in our yard one night and caught the guy. He admitted to stealing them all, 5 or 6 total. A little over 2 grand total back then. He brought his wife and young family in and begged for us to not prosecute him. I felt sorry for him and called the prosecutor to drop the charges.
I’ll never forget what he said. He said I’ll drop the charges but never ask me to prosecute anyone again for you. No matter the charges. We didn’t drop the charges and he was found guilty.
Oh how times have changed.
The US didn't have an immigration law for the first century of its existence.
I would say that doesnt matter , because they do now and have had immigration laws for some time . they are not something new .
i said it before , dont like the laws being enforced ? then change the law through the legislature .
The Alien and Sedition law, passed in 1798, gave the President broad power to deport aliens.
I assumed that you would understand that the family would have all been valid American citizens - the husband being the immigrant with the wife and children all born in the USA. Yes, they are free to go with the husband, but at the cost of what I said about their connections.
Cruelty to the weak is an essential element of fascism. MAGA is fascist.
Trump Unleashes $608M for States to Build ‘Alligator Alcatraz’-Style Illegal Imigrant Camps
But hey, whatever!
But wait, there's more!
Alligator Alcatraz Detainees Complain While Refusing to Leave
And there you have it..........Thanks for the article.
A place to hold them until they can be sent back to where they came from and belong is needed.