"Disappear without recourse": Trump's defiance of a court order means "any American" could be next | Salon.com
By: Russell Payne (Salon)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
President Donald Trump's administration maintains that those that it improperly sent to a prison in El Salvador are themselves responsible for seeking legal relief that could potentially return them to the United States, a position that legal experts say is destined for argument before the Supreme Court.
In the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a Maryland resident whom the Trump administration sent to a Salvadoran prison based on an "administrative error," the White House has argued that it can't make its partners in El Salvador return the man it sent them.
The argument came in response to a unanimous Supreme Court opinion last week, which required the administration to "facilitate" Abrego Garcia's return. The Trump administration responded in a filing saying that to "facilitate" his return means simply to "remove any domestic obstacles that would otherwise impede the alien's ability to return here."
Attorney General Pam Bondi expanded on the administration's position in a statement, saying that to facilitate Abgrego Garcia's return would be to provide a plane, but that it's "up to El Salvador if they want to return him. That's not up to us."
In a statement Monday, the president of El Salvador and Trump ally, Nayib Bukele, said that it was also beyond his power to return Abgrego Garcia to the United States. "I don't have the power to return him to the United States," he claimed.
The position of the administration, taken in the context of Bukele's statement, suggests that the administration expects Abgrego Garcia to "find his way back to the U.S. border on his own," according to Barbara McQuade, a former U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan. She added that she thinks the Trump administration is in violation of a court order for refusing to bring him back.
"They are taking a highly questionable interpretation of the word 'facilitate' to mean that they need only open the door if Mr. Abrego Garcia is able to get out of a terrorist prison," McQuade said. "If they can do this, they can cause any American citizen to disappear without recourse. At some point, the court will need to hold an official in contempt for violating its order."
Jeffrey Abramson, professor emeritus of government and law at the University of Texas, agreed that the administration "seems prepared to defy a federal court order and provoke a constitutional crisis."
"In an unsigned unanimous order, the Supreme Court upheld the order insofar as it directed the Trump administration to 'facilitate' the man's return, though the Court asked the judge to clarify what exactly it meant to 'effectuate' the man's return," Abramson told Salon. "But instead of cooperating, the Trump administration has dug in, refused to do anything, and walked back its earlier concession that the deportation was unlawful."
Abramson said, though, that it's "not clear what Judge Xinis can do to compel the Trump administration to comply with the order to facilitate. She may hold Trump administration officials in contempt of court, but how to give teeth to such a contempt citation is not clear."
Looming over the administration's refusal to bring Abrego Garcia back to the U.S. is Trump's apparent intent to send American citizens to the El Salvadoran prison next.
"We always have to obey the laws, but we also have homegrown criminals that push people into subways, that hit elderly ladies on the back of the head with a baseball bat when they're not looking, that are absolute monsters," Trump told reporters Monday. "I'd like to include them."
Bennett Gershman, a law professor at Pace University, told Salon that the question of what protections an American citizen might enjoy, that a noncitizen like Abgrego Garcia was denied, is probably a question of enforcement. He sees this issue going to the Supreme Court, noting that it will also be a question of whether the Trump administration decides to respect whatever order is issued.
"For example, if Trump decides to deport a citizen to the El Salvador prison, as he has suggested he could do and would do under his broad foreign affairs power, and even though the citizen is protected by the Constitution from cruel and unusual punishment under the Eighth Amendment," Gersham said, "how is that right enforced?"
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Thus lies the way to tyranny.
You need to update your information as to the reality of what's going in this case.
Even CNN's Chief Legal Reporter Blew Up This Major Lie About the Deported Illegal Alien Case
Your link has nothing to do with the central point of this article, and is merely a regurgitation of false and misleading right wing propaganda, but thanks for posting!
Garcia had "withholding of removal" status, so he was allowed to live and work in the U.S.
SCotUS unanimously ruled that his deportation was illegal.
Trump is playing semantic games to test the limits of his power; he is using this man as a political football. This is sick.
A decent human being would —especially after acknowledging the error of his administration— call for El Salvador's Bukele to return him immediately.
Trump is not a decent human being; he is an asshole. You should be criticizing this behavior instead of trying to defend it.
Sounds to me like Matt Vespa is honing his lips for one of those peachy jobs Trump likes to bestow on media personalities who shower him with praise and support.
WHat about Paula Reid? I believe she is analyst for CNN.
When did CNN become right wing propaganda?
According to CNN it seems The Supreme courts wording allowed that.
Paula Reid said that to host Jake Tapper quite clearly yesterday. “They did not order the administration to return him to the United States. They said that they need to facilitate his return. They could have said 'we order him returned,' but they didn't do that,” she said.
The order only mandates he not be deported to El Salvador. There's no way this ends with him back in the US, nor should it. If he comes back, he'll be immediately sent to Guantanamo or any third country that will take him pursuant to the order of removal.
He has zero legal right to be in the US.
I know nothing about her, as to Vespa who appears of late to be a goto, a simple review of his articles over the years reveals over the top partisanship swimming in troll stew.
And what do they do if he says, NO.
Garcia is not a nice man. He is and will always remain an illegal alien, He ties to MS-13 have been verified. MS-13 has been designated as a terrorist organization. Why do lefties clamor so loudly for this thug's return?
He's not coming back to the US and most patriotic Americans applaud his permanent removal.
If he wants to continue to be paid he’ll do whatever the fuck Trump tells him to do. Both of them are pretending the other is in the driver seat. This isn’t rocket science.
Amazing how this violent criminal has never been arrested, huh? Ever ask yourself reasonable questions? Or do you just blindly accept what this administration insists is true without actual evidence?
The actual evidence is there in the article. Ignoring and denying reality doesn't change the facts.
You have this delusion that Trump is going to do anything other than give him a ride home or maybe you can point to the part of the SCOTUS decision that tells Trump what to do. This MS -13 gangbanger is a citizen of El Salvado and you want their President to turn him over to a foreign government, so we can send him to another country.
I’ve searched your haystack for that needle, and unsurprisingly it is not there. Please point it out. One can assume that what you call evidence is going to be so incredibly weak that even you knew it was not a good idea to quote it.
According to Abrego Garcia’s petition last month, the GFIS police submitted explained that “the only reason to believe Plaintiff Abrego Garcia was a gang member was that he was wearing a Chicago Bulls hat and a hoodie; and that a confidential informant advised that he was an active member of MS-13 with the Westerns clique.” The “Western” clique of MS-13 “operates in Brentwood, Long Island, in New York, a state that Plaintiff Abrego Garcia has never lived in,” the petition read.
I am under no such delusion that Donald Trump has an iota of empathy or shame. He needs to be forced to do the right thing, every time, no exceptions, because he is a subhuman pile of garbage.
looks like there's several openings available for some new non-maga american heroes and icons ...
Very true, and that also says a lot about those who look up to him. How low of a life form must it take to look up to a subhuman pile of garbage?
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Yes, but it's not quite that simple.
They also ruled that the District Court may have exceeded its authority by the use of the term "effectuate" which the SCOTUS deemed to be unclear. The ruling says "the District Court should clarify its directive, with due regard for the deference owed the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs."
The football in question was confirmed as a member of MS13 by two different immigration courts in 2019 after being arrested with other MS13 members. Again, it's not necessarily as simple as some media outlets would have us believe.
Well yeah. But this is more complex than that.
Other than the 2019 arrest with 3 other MS13 members?
He was granted a US work permit.
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Arguably, the Court “could” say what they like. However, to retain Constitutional legitimacy, the Court generally tries not to augment the ruling in a case like this. Rather, they were evaluating the language of the District court’s order. Here, the Court affirmed the order to facilitate Garcia’s return.
The Court also asked the District judge to clarify what was meant by “effectuate.” This is because the Court does not wish to violate Separation of Powers by telling the Executive how to do its job.
Semantics aside, I don’t think there is any question that the courts at every level think the US government should do what it can to return Garcia to The States ASAP.
He was arrested standing in front of Home Depot. Can you imagine that? An immigrant standing in front of Home Depot! How unusual! /S
It is inhuman to think there is any evidence of this guy doing anything illegal, other than existing in the US, and that he should consequently spent the rest of his young life in a notoriously horrible prison. That kind of “justice” is some gangsta shit.
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And what was his crime? Existing in the US? Now punishable by a slow, terrorizing death in a place so horrific you wouldn’t even want to be alive in? Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just shoot immigrants on site? Is that where this is going?
He was arrested with 3 other MS13 members. And drugs.
He was confirmed as an MS13 member in two separate immigration court hearings.
He admitted to entering the country illegally. Other than that, he has not been charged with a crime.
However... MS13 was declared a terrorist organization in El Salvador in 2015, and was declared a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the US Govt on Feb 6 of this year.
The man is a known member of what is now a terrorist group. That complicates matters.
he has not been charged with a crime.
Exactly. Did you forget what fucking country you live in?! He was given a virtual death penalty for existing in the US. Do you really want to normalize that?!
For starters, yes. He entered the country illegally, resided here illegally and was subject to a deportation order.
So put him in a foreign prison, throw away the key, and let American tax payers fund his slow death?
Oh FFS.
Apparently I live in a country being overrun by drama queens with zero interest in investing the intellectual capital required for honest discussion.
He wasn't just existing. He was in the country illegally.... Which. is. a. crime. He was also a known member of a notorious criminal gang. He was arrested during a drug bust alongside other known members of the same gang. He wasn't charged because the drugs were on the ground and police could not be certain which gang member threw them there.
Now... that said.... he was later granted a work permit... which made him a legal resident. He went 5+ years without any additional arrests, so it would be reasonable to conclude he was getting his life together.
However.... the declaration of MS13 as a terrorist organization changes things again.
WTF are we normalizing??? There is nothing normal about anything associated with this situation, aside from the batshit hysterical overreactions of emotional leftists and the angry immigrant hatred of the far right..
You're unwilling to look at all the facts and actually think this through, so you're still making no fucking sense.
We could just as easily ask "do you want to normalize bullying other countries into releasing members of terrorist groups?"
We mistakenly deported a member of a terrorist organization, and now we're asking for him back. It's not a simple situation.
This guy is an El Salvadoran citizen in prison in El Salvador. He's there because he's a member of a terrorist group that nearly destroyed that country. They've imprisoned over 75,000 people since 2022 during a massive cleanup of their country, which is finally not a complete gangland shithole for the first time in decades.
Why would they want to release somebody with terrorist affiliations?
Contrary to prevailing left wing foolishness, the POTUS does not actually have control which of their citizens other countries decide to imprison.
What is this guy's criminal record? What crimes has he been convicted of ? Or are we just going to send unconvicted persons to notorious prisons now?
Only people who have been convicted ( or in some cases formally charged) of crimes belong in prison. Your or trumps or Stephen Millers or Pam Bondis opinion of him is not enough to throw him in a dungeon. I would ask what the hell has happened to the right in this country but I already know.
That's an issue for the government of the country he's a citizen of.
Your or trumps or Stephen Millers or Pam Bondis opinion of him is not enough to throw him in a dungeon.
My opinion of him has nothing to do with it. Sure, I don't think highly of people whose wife seeks an order of protection from, or who hangs out with members of one of the the most violent gangs in the world.
I don't care if he's a member of MS-13 or not. There is a legal order to deport him. He should be deported. If the Trump DOJ doesn't want to reopen the order preventing his removal to El Salvador they should either deport him somewhere else or Guantanamo until they find a place to send him.
The people defending Trump and his underlings in this are looking like fools.
This man was NOT supposed to be deported to El Salvador, but he was. Bring him back and put him through due process. Period. Unless you want to cause continued unrest over this.
He hasn't. That doesn't matter in El Salvador.
We can't actually send people to prison in other countries. We can send them to that country, but the prison part is up to the locals.
Similarly, we can't force them to release people, especially if those people are not Americans.
Personally, I do. I think it impacts the legality of whatever happens, and I want us following the law.
There is a legal order preventing his deportation and authorizing his living and working in the United States. The Trump Administration may not agree with that order, but they don't have the right to unilaterally overturn or ignore it.
I'm not suggesting they did, BTW. I'm suggesting they simply fucked up the clerical side of this and accidentally deported somebody they should not have.
In an ideal situation, it should be easy to fix that. But this isn't ideal. He's a confirmed member of an FTO, so shit is much more complicated.
The case of course is more complex, but my statement is in fact correct and yes the fact is that simple . It is a fact that SCotUS unanimously ruled that his deportation was illegal:
Irrelevant to my point. He was illegally removed and the Trump administration is using this case as yet another test to see how far Trump can push his powers. It does not matter what the Trump administration believes or suspects about him, they admitted they made an "administrative error" and SCotUS had declared his deportation illegal. A matter easily resolved by Trump asking Bukele to return him. Obviously Trump has told Bukele to refuse to return Garcia.
Most every topic is more complex than what is handled in a post. But what I posted was 100% factually correct.
www.rawstory.com /marco-rubio-2671784847/
Marco Rubio's 'utter nonsense' ripped to pieces by right-wing legal analyst
Krystina Alarcon Carroll 2-3 minutes 4/16/2025
Krystina Alarcon Carroll
April 16, 2025 3:10PM ET
Andrew McCarthy, a legal analyst for the National Review , is criticizing Secretary of State Marco Rubio for his ‘disingenuous’ explanation for the deportation Kilmar Abrego Garcia.
The 29-year-old Maryland man was mistakenly deported to El Salvador last month. He was a topic of conversation on Monday during President Donald Trump's meeting with El Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele. Rubio, Attorney General Pam Bondi, and others were all present for the meeting and took questions from the media.
McCarthy took issue with Rubio's declarations that judges should not be making foreign policy decisions best left up to the president of the United States.
“Marco Rubio is too smart not to know that what he was saying was utter nonsense,” Columnist and lawyer Andrew C. McCarthy wrote of Rubio’s remarks. “Rubio knows enough about the laws he’s enforcing to understand that the repatriation of an alien — even an illegal alien — is not what’s supposed to happen when an immigration judge has ruled that the illegal alien may not be deported to his home country because he has a credible fear of persecution.”
This is what happened to Abrego Garcia back in 2019 when an immigration judge granted him “withholding of removal to El Salvador.” Meaning, “The illegal alien could be deported (i.e., he remained 'removable') but he could not lawfully be deported to El Salvador.”
McCarthy then stated, “Rubio went on a ridiculous rant about how the foreign policy of the United States is run by the president, not by a judge. As the former senator is surely aware, the withholding of removal remedy was enacted by Congress. (See Title 8, U.S. Code, §1231(b)(3) ).”
“It is inconceivable that the United States secretary of state is unaware that Abrego Garcia had a legal right against deportation to El Salvador that was enforceable in federal court,” McCarthy opined. “A federal court’s vindication of a person’s legal rights is not a matter of the judge trying to wrest control of foreign policy. It’s the law. I’m pretty sure Marco Rubio knows that.”
Are you in favor of suspending due process for Garcia?
You seem to be trying to justify leaving him in El Salvador. If that is NOT what you are trying to do then I again refer you to the concept of due process and how the Trump administration is violating it.
It really doesn't. He's deportable either way.
I agree they need to follow the law though, which means he should not be deported to El Salvador as things stand right now.
is a legal order preventing his deportation and authorizing his living and working in the United State
Again, the modification of the deportation order only prevents his deportation to El Salvador, specifically. It doesn't create a legal right to stay here. He has no visa. He has no green card and he's not a citizen. Those are the legal processes that create a legal right to stay here.
'm suggesting they simply fucked up the clerical side of this and accidentally deported somebody they should not have.
I agree there was a mistake but I think its they deported him somewhere they shouldn't.
Correct.
We arent paying the El Salvador dictator to let them in the country. We are paying him to put them in prison.
Yes, that's what I've been saying. McCarthy is on top of things as usual.
The DOJ should do what it can to get him repatriated, then deport him somewhere else in order to conform with the previously entered orders. Or, they could keep him in prison here and relitigate his claim to be afraid of deportation to his own country and send him there if successful.
Then you are demanding that he be brought back and go through due process.
The only due process he's owed is the trump admin making a good faith effort at securing his removal from El Salvador before being deported somewhere else. The deportation order has been entered. He's had his due process on that issue.
.
He was granted "withholding of removal" status in 2019 by an immigration judge.
If due process finds that he violated the terms of this grant then he could be legally deported. If not, he is free to live and work in the USA.
Read John’s link, or the courts order. The withholding of removal order only prevents his removal to El Salvador. Other than that, the deportation order remains in effect. He can be deported anywhere else without any further legal process.
Look, the Trump administration sent a man who has been convicted of no other crime to a foreign prison. They knew he was being sent to prison, as all the illegal migrants we sent there have been. Does the United States send people to prison for entering the US illegally?
This is a phenomenal moral failure on the part of trump Miller Bondi, Rubio etc. and they will be held accountable one way or another.
Right. But they also ruled that what to do about it is still very unclear.
Completely relevant to any process related to getting him back.
We don't know either of those things.
Our country deports people to their country of origin who enter the country illegally all of the time, regardless of whether they have committed a crime or joined a gang. The trump admin simply needs to follow the follow the laws and fix mistakes when they are made.
Many if not most of the people we have sent to the El Salvador prison are not from El Salvador.
Yep.
Of course not.
Not at all. I'm simply saying that fixing this fuck up is not as easy as our angry liberal friends want to pretend.
The El Salvador dictator will not deny or defy Trump, he wants more money from him. If Trump said get that guy on a plane tomorrow he'd be on a plane tomorrow.
Bull shit.
Trump: Give me back the prisoner.
President Dictator who is so far down on the feed chain that he will do anything Trump says: Uhhhhhh.. Ok.
Unless of course the "coolest dictator" has his dick buried somewhere in the White House.
Trump and Company are fucking pathetic. "I can do anything, except get this guy from a prison that I am paying for sending him too."
They had ought to give up right now before the whole country puts their asses on slow boats to nowhere.
Does not change the fact this was illegal. That was the point I made.
Not relevant to my point ... you replied to my post about this being illegal and argued an entirely different point.
Sure we do. Bukele is sucking up to Trump. If Trump wanted Garcia returned, Bukele would do so. Do you really think that Bukele would defy Trump in the USA with Trump sitting next to him? Trump had already informed Bukele what he wanted him to say and just like Trump's other sycophants he did what he was told to do.
Sure it is. Trump tells Bukele to return Garcia. Done.
I don't think I've suggested otherwise.
FFS. We're having a conversation. They often include the exchange of multiple ideas. Does everything have to be an argument?
No, you're assuming. For all you know Bukele is trying to press Trump for a couple billion in aid or interference with an international court when he's tried for all his human rights violations.
Do you really think all of these discussions are going on in public?
Again, you're assuming.
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I stated a fact. You came back suggesting the situation is more complex. Well of course the case is more complex than the fact that this was deemed illegal by the SCotUS. But that does not change the fact that it was unanimously deemed illegal. The Trump administration broke the law and they are not trying to rectify the situation. They are doing the opposite.
Just stop, you know damn well what has taken place. Trump is testing his limits and part of this was to tell Bukele to not return Garcia.
Excellent. We agree.
I know you have a strong anti-Trump bias and a history of struggling to imagine alternative predicaments.
That's certainly a possibility. It's certainly not the only possibility.
What you label 'anti-Trump bias' is simply dealing with facts. In this case, it is not only a possibility that Trump instructed Bukele to publicly state he will not return him, it is near certainty.
Do you actually believe that Bukele would make a public statement sitting next to Trump that Trump did not approve of? Note how Trump made no indication that he was surprised with his response or was opposed to it.
One need only consider what we know of Trump and the facts of this case to see that Bukele stated what Trump wanted him to state: that he would not return Garcia.
We also agree that Trump is an asshole, but that agreement too does not change the fact that the deportation of Garcia was illegal.
And your proof of this is......?
Facts and bias are not mutually exclusive.
Which would simply mean they knew what was going to said publicly. It offers no indication of what went on privately.
I think we're in agreement on both of those points.
I think we differ on the complexity of extricating a member of a terrorist organization from prison in the country where he is a citizen.
I recognize the normal complexity of international extrication. However, this is a case of a small ally nation that was doing us a favor to please Trump. There is very little chance that Bukele would defy Trump to keep a single person prisoner. Makes zero sense. What does make perfect sense is the Bukele is stating what Trump told him to state … just like what his cabinet does.
Bukele obviously cares about value he can gain from the USA via Trump and would not defy Trump just to keep Garcia. To wit, Bukele is (obviously) doing exactly what Trump asked him to do.
Make an argument rather post witless platitudes demanding ‘proof’. If you think I am wrong then make an argument … add some value.
There is every chance he wants something in return, and he's hoping to leverage an embarrassing situation for his own benefit. He didn't get where he is being a nice guy.
Given the current situation, there is now a significant chance that both Bukele and El Salvador as a country could be the subject of punitive actions taken by a future US regime. Trump haters are not known for their rational thought or restraint, and have shown zero reluctance in going after anybody associated with him.
It's not hard to imagine a situation where the political tide turns and this guy is on trial for human rights abuses, with economic sanctions against El Salvador until they turn him over. In his position, I would absolutely be demanding formal and permanent immunity from anything that could possibly be held against me if some batshit angry lefty wins the WH.
LOL. Neither is your president.
Thanks for demonstrating the point, John.
Oh, and he's your president, too.
Maybe you should look a little harder, don't rely on the "Rolling Stone" to give you the facts. You act like a Chicago Bulls hat is the only reason he's considered part of MS-13 is totally ridiculous.
Kilmer Abrego Garcia Documents
Quite a guy. No wonder he is a hero to so many on the left.
Yes, we agree on this.
Good grief.
Could you give me an example of a batshit angry PotUS in recent times besides Trump?
I can only name one batshit angry PotUS in my lifetime and that is Trump. Nixon, the obvious possibility, was not angry, his big problem was paranoia. LBJ was an asshole but does not hold a candle to Trump.
Right. Pay no attention to the Tesla dealerships on fire. Certainly pay no attention to the NY Attorney General who prosecuted Trump for something she herself was doing.
No, but apparently AOC is the current Democratic frontrunner. Unlikely, to be sure, but Trump was unlikely, too.
Is what you mean by 'Trump haters'? I thought you had a much more inclusive meaning for that phrase ... something like 'anyone who regularly criticizes bad decisions by Trump'.
Yes those who violently destroy personal property in some form of misguided political protest are indeed irrational and irresponsible. Most people who regularly criticize (or silently disagree with) Trump do so responsibly.
Is she an example of someone who you consider to be "batshit angry"?
No no. I mean the people who disagree with everything he does simply because he's the one doing it. We're talking about the nutjobs who disassociate with family members of friends upon learning they voted for Trump. Or they vandalize cars or other private property because they deem it to be Trump related somehow. They might have "needed" the day off work or school after Trump was elected. Or they refuse to serve Trump supporters or his staff in their businesses. Or maybe they rationalize physical violence against Trump or Trump supporters, like saying their disappointed that his would be assassin missed.
I mean people who hate him so much they lose the capacity for rational thought (assuming they ever had it to begin with).
Batshit, yes. Angry, meh....maybe. I think she does a good job at pretending to be angry in order to win votes. But she's exactly the type of person to whom I refer. Whether she is authentically or artificially angry, she would not hesitate to persecute and/or prosecute Trump allies for her own political gain. We've already seen Letitia James do so.
You know whats Batshit? People who know that Trump is not fit for or worthy of office, especially as US president, but endlessy pretend he is just another guy.
I feel confident you'll demonstrate it for us.
You didn't disappoint.
There are actually millions of completely sane possible reactions to Trump and his actions that do not involve hand-wringing or hysteria or anxiety of any kind.
You choose to have a great deal of emotional stress over these events and this man you cannot control. That is 100% your choice. As foolish a choice as it is, I would not seek to deny you the right to make it.
You then demand that everyone else express a similar level of anxiety, and attempt to judge or shame them if they fail to comply. I've told you before and I reiterate now that I refuse to participate in your foolishness. Not sorry.
You dont know what you are talking about on me, and you dont know what you are talking about on Trump. And thats all there is to it.
Well if someone disagrees with what Trump does and cannot provide a reason for the disagreement (other than he is Trump) then I can understand you affixing the label 'Trump hater'. If that is how you define 'Trump hater' then you have a much more restricted definition than others on this site who use that term.
What about those who disagree with almost everything Trump does and provide facts and sound logic to support the disagreement? Is it possible to almost never agree with Trump and not be a 'Trump hater' as you define the term?
Is she 'batshit' in your view because you disagree with her position or because you think she is mentally unstable / irrational?
AOC is clearly to my left, but I do not consider her 'batshit crazy' or angry. She seems driven and still somewhat naive, but she also strikes me as rational, principled, and in control of herself.
Funny, I see her as an individual who cares about the rule of law and cares about decency. Do you see her, as PotUS, vindictively trying to prosecute Trump (without reasonable cause)? I do not. I think that if she were PotUS she would, unlike Trump, attempt to be presidential, attempt to properly execute her duties with fidelity to the constitution, the rule of law, and basic decency. Her policies would, of course, be quite left of center.
And, just to be clear, she is not on my radar for someone I would like to see as PotUS (at least at this stage in her career).
I agree. You are highly critical of Trump but can back up your positions with facts and sound reasoning. You do not qualify as 'batshit'.
I seem to recall you recently posting your dismay over the loss of net worth caused by one individual who you cannot control. I would not presume that you are under 'emotional stress' but clearly you are very much NOT pleased with Trump.
And you can (and have) explained your reasons for your criticism of Trump.
JR (me too) disagrees with Trump far more than you do, but you can always ask why and you will get facts and reasons supporting the criticism.
Let's now add some additional information.
Senator Van Hollen met with Garcia in El Salvador. He arrived and the authorities were able to locate Garcia and provide a meeting with Garcia in civilian clothes sipping a drink with Van Hollen.
This is a senator who was given this courtesy. Now, you actually think that a phone call from Trump, the PotUS, asking for Garcia to be returned from the prison (where the USA is providing funding) would be ignored by Bukele?
There is no complexity here. The USA made a mistake and is asking for the return of a legal resident from an ally nation that the USA is paying to hold deported illegal criminals. Trump makes a phone call, Bukele accommodates.
He is not a legal resident. He has no visa, no green card and is subject to immediate deportation.
He was granted the right to legally reside in the USA and to work here.
no he wasn't and you absolutely cannot provide any evidence that he was given a legal right to stay in the US, or the deportation order was removed, because it never happened. He doesn't have a visa. He doesn't have a green card. He doesn't have asylum. He has zero and never has had any legal right to be in the US.
All he secured was a right not to be deported to El Salvador. If he was given authorization to work, for which I've seen no source, it only allows him to work until deported, which could happen at any time the US finds a third country to accept him. He has no right to any due process before deportation to any country in the world beside El Salvador.
Why do so many progressives refuse to deal with the actual facts of his case?
I stated that he was given the right by an immigration judge in 2019 to legally stay in the USA and to work in the USA by virtue of a withholding of removal.
Correct, he could not be deported to El Salvador; I did not claim he could not be deported elsewhere.
But there is more to this than that, keep reading.
Per the AP:
For legal underpinning, read this :
For years your reaction to these facts has been some version of "get over it".
I don't know what I'm going to like better, trump eventually taking a wagon ride down pennsylvania avenue, or watching his enablers scatter like roaches trying to escape the light when that happens ...
I greatly favor the wagon ride and do not care about what his supporters do.
Trump is demonstrably unfit to hold any office, much less the presidency, and the nation would be better off even with Vance. There is always the chance that Vance would return to his rational positions prior to succumbing to the Trump cult and behave in a manner typified by all other PotUS other than Trump.
You know ... presidential ... preserve, protect, and defend the CotUS. Uphold the rule of law. Treat the presidency as a solemn obligation.
Quaint notions like that.
trump will kick open the door on gov't sanctioned violence against his political enemies this summer ...
Kindly pay closer attention. I have repeatedly stated that I have zero intention of apologizing for my utter and complete unwillingness to participate in brainless, hyper-emotional, neurotic, Trump-obsessed foolishness.
I don't care at all what you do.
If you choose to let Trump control your life, that's your decision. I'm not about to grant the bastard that power over mine.
Trump doesnt control my life but I am enjoying you losing your shit.
Everyone here knows you have spent the last few years both sidesing this issue to death.
*sigh* Riiiiiiight. Sure thing.
Again, thanks for the demonstration.
Striving to see all sides of an issue is a necessary component of both wisdom and fair-mindedness. It's comical but not unexpected that you object to them.
So once again, I will not join your foolish crusade.
I'm not sure how we're confusing visiting someone in prison with getting them out of prison. Seems like those are well established as two very different ideas.
I've told you what I think.
Just because it's not visible to you it does not mean it doesn't exist.
There are no two sides to Trump. But please go on, tell us what the good side is.
He is not Biden or Harris
Again, thanks for the demonstration.
The one good thing that comes to mind immediately is that the office of POTUS is once again being carried out by the person the American people elected, and not a faceless walking Constitutional violation nobody voted for.
But we all know you can't stop at Trump, you have to squeal about his supporters, ....or frankly anybody who fails to validate your religious obsession.
Most Trump supporters are very average, hardworking Americans who simply said "no" to some of the increasingly extremist nuttery of the Democrats.
They're pretty sure we don't need to have drag shows for 5 year olds or let men win women's sports. They don't think we should favor people because of race. They don't think masculinity is toxic. They don't think it's a bad thing to actually know what govt money is being spent on. They don't think people who didn't get to go to college should have to pay off the student loans of people who did. They don't think enforcing immigration law is hate.
But they fail to meet the single criteria that determines moral fitness in your universe.... they fail to join your whining about Trump.
Obviously you would think that, cause when it IS VISIBLE to you, you still claim it doesn't exist. And when one doesn't see, that which is so damn obvious to others, including me, it is difficult to not see what either you truly can't and only God knows Y, or, you can and are just into spreading a great big ole LIE, only you can prevent forest fires and the truth from being known, because as the facts rolled in, you still haven't grown, as the seeds don't take, perhaps the soil is fake, and more fertilizer is required, careful with that shit, some seems expired....
About what, exactly, do you imagine I make this claim? Be specific.
Why are you confusing these two? I certainly am not confused. Making contact with Garcia as a Senator proves that Garcia is alive and easily located by the authorities. Given that, the president of the USA, to whom Bukela is clearly trying to earn favor, has the power to get Garcia on a plane back to the USA. One phone call and it is done.
I think you have imagined far more complexity in this matter than actually exists. Odd that you cannot recognize that Bukele almost certainly sees more value in doing what Trump wants (after all, releasing a single prisoner sent by mistake is easy for Bukela to do) than defying Trump and killing his chances for benefits (e.g. more money to build more prisons) and likely getting on Trump's shit list.
How much value do you think Bukele puts on keeping Garcia vs. keeping / building a strong financial relationship with the USA?
If you were Bukela and Trump asked you to return Garcia, what would you do?
People can have sincere differences about policy. The fitness for office of Trump is not a matter for discussion or debate.
Of course it is. Just the fact not everyone agrees with your assessment opens it up for discussion and debate.
What are you talking about? The office of the PotUS has always been carried out by the person the people elected except in the cases where the VP took over for the PotUS. But even then, the V.P. was technically elected by the people except for the single case where Ford (not elected by the people as a whole) took over for Nixon. Where do you find the office of PotUS carried out by a "faceless walking constitutional violation that nobody voted for"?
And short of Woodrow Wilson's final days (and possibly those of FDR), each PotUS carried out his office.
Until the midterms, the most influence the people can have on Trump is through our voices. Those who defend Trump's actions reduce the efficacy of those who are criticizing his actions. Trump supporters / defenders are thus doing a disservice to our nation.
And now they can see better the downsides of their choice. They can compare the perceived 'extremist nuttery' of the Ds with the blatantly obvious irresponsible, loose-cannon, irrational actions of Trump. Given the choices in the GOP primary and include Biden and Harris (and maybe not Vivek since he is such a wild card), the USA would almost certainly be in much better shape if one of them were elected instead of Trump.
All minor nonsense compared to Trump's single-handed damage to the world economy, international relationships, the US economy, global and domestic wealth (stocks and bonds), and untold damage to government services. And Trump is still within his first 100 days.
Neither Biden or Harris would have rocked the boat so badly in such a short period of time.
The border would still be closed, NATO would still be confidant in us and the stock market would have lazily kept on climbing.
Doing nothing, especially no harm would not have alienated 70 year allies or broke the stock market
locally cost us $trillions or globally costing twice as much.
This is CHAOS.
Clearly!! Doing nothing at all would be far better than the current situation.
doing nothing but chasing the camera lens used to be what trump did best. when he starts making decisions is usually when his economic catastrophes begin ...
Do you people ever read your own links?
But he’s only talking about the really really bad American citizens, just like how he promised to start deportations with the really really bad illegal immigrants. Meanwhile the doting husband and father of an autistic child, who has never been arrested, is sitting in said prison as a result of an accident that Trump refuses to correct - claiming his Chicago Bulls hat makes him a leader of MS13. Nobody is safe in this country anymore.
the nuremberg defense won't be valid for any LE and gov't employees that participated or let this happen, but the good news is that there might be plenty of factory jobs available when they get out of prison ...
Jesse Watters of Fox News claimed that "everyone knows" a Bulls hat is indication of MS-13 affiliation.
Then prove it in court.
My brother in law used to buy sports teams hats to wear every day ( he was going bald). He rarely had any real fan feeling for the team on the hat. He bought them for color and logo style.
Bring the guy back and give him due process, or make the situation a hundred times worse.
My daughter works as an accountant for a very well known sports branding athletic wear company. I wonder if she knows she a kingpin in this gang empire.
I do? huh
If the Trump admin actually did admit they made a mistake and it was a clerical error I agree he should be brought back.
The Trump administration admitted in a court filing that the deportation was an "administrative error".
If it was clearly shown to be a mistake but they refused to admit it, would that mean an improperly deported person should not be brought back?
maga doesn't admit mistakes, they double down ...
Read #3 again. Pretty sure I said if it was a mistake he should be brought back.
So what? Why do you want an illegal alien criminal brought back to the US.
The Trump Admin is making the case that the next left wing populist admin can start housing J6 terrorists in El Salvador prisons too. I mean if the Presidential Admins can do as they please without repercussions what's the next one going to try?
Or, perhaps we stick with the Constitution, the rule of law and the idea of due process?
it's really going to suck for people that choose trump over the constitution ...
Either the law applies to everyone, or it doesn't. In other words - play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
that's way too generous for traitors. form and pour a 10 foot tall, 50 foot long, concrete wall right at the entrance to arlington and let the military honor guard make good use of it ...
I want the law to be followed.
He has a work permit. That makes him no longer an illegal alien. Under US law, he has a legal right to be here.
He has never been charged with a crime, either here or in El Salvador. He has done nothing to violate the terms of his work permit.
So on what basis are you accusing him of being a "illegal alien criminal"?
He absolutely remains an illegal alien. He entered illegally. He was denied asylum and ordered deported. He simply could not be deported to El Salvador under the withholding order and was allowed to work if not deported elsewhere. He could always, and can still be, deported at any time to any other country without further legal process The Trump admin should either have gotten the withholding order removed before deporting him to El Salvador, or deported him to a third country that would accept him. He has no legal right to be here.
Yes he does. He was granted "withholding of removal" status in 2019 by an immigration judge.
Aww, now there you go again, using facts and logic against fear mongering and innuendo.
I think they should be shipped to Gitmo
they can swim there from a CG cutter, south of key west, after receiving a few strategic lacerations ...
Right now.
if this is the ideological hill maga wants to die on, so be it ...
... in refrigerated shipping containers.
so much for the checks and balances among 3 branches of gov't. ...
no due process = no constitution
no constitution = no laws
no laws = no maga
maga opening the disappear without recourse door may come in real handy in 2 or 4 years ...
Adam Kinzinger says it almost time to take to the streets
"Adam Kinzinger finally saying it out loud. We are on our own. It is up to us. And it’s close to time to take to the streets. https://t.co/J1OWw4juCb" / X
Trump is tip toeing toward total authoritarianism, and its in fits and starts because he is trying to gauge the public reaction. Some us tried to warn you last fall, and before that, and now it is unfolding. Adam Kinzinger is a moderate republican, not a "radical leftist", and he says its almost time to take to the streets. We fucked around and found out.
No. We didn't. They did. The ones who voted for him.
But I think they knew that all along. They want authoritarianism. It's the only way they know to bring back the old days of oppression and persecution of minorities, LGBTQ+, women, and any body that doesn't look like them, praise God like them, or thinks like them.
So much for patriotism and the ideals of the American Republic
oh yeah, the summer of maga love ...
I think most of us were brought up with the idea that America and the American system were the good guys.
And now we are going against all that. All to oppose "the other'.
those that support a POTUS that thinks he's above the constitution are in for a rude awakening this summer ...
So he's advocating insurrection? I guess the whole "insurrection is the worst thing ever" lasted two months without a Democrat in the White House. A little longer than i expected actually.
He probably doesnt want to wait four years on the hope Trump will leave peacefully.
We should have demonstrations with millions of people in the streets NOW not later and not even in a little while.
where have you been? insurrectionists are protected by trump now ...
We should have demonstrations with millions of people in the streets NOW not later and not even in a little while.
It’s unfortunate that this kind of public attention is also like crack to Trump. Chaos is his baseline and he loves it.
There wont be a meaningful election for 18 months and even that may not be that meaningful. If the Democrats make gains in 2026 Trump will claim the election was stolen and go back to what he was doing (wrecking the country). Only a mass movement can take the wind out of his sails at this point.
I get it. Just pointing out how this demented psycho simultaneously feeds off of mass movements. As long as he’s the center of attention the subject and severity don’t matter to him.
We are going to clog the machinery that Trump has emplaced with, law suits, with protests, and with our bodies, if necessary.
How many of citizens does he have to use his extreme rendition on before the defenders of Trump realize that he wants nothing but power and ass kissing humility?
ICE:
That's not a bad plan.
That does nothing more than make you feel better while looking a bit crazy. Nobody else gives a shit.
That does nothing more than make you feel much, much worse while looking clinically insane. It drives large numbers of people away and undermines your cause.
Let me be clear: Just because you do not give a shit does not affect the opinions of the rest of the population.
I am not willing to wait until it is too late and then say,"Gee. I should've done something before this."
I have stated on here before that if I am wrong, I will be happy. Overjoyed, even. I wish that, looking at all the available data, I did not consistently arrive at the same conclusions: Donald Trump = President = Authoritarian rule.
I don't think that my assessment of the events that have occurred is wrong. I predicted them based on past actions and character traits. So far, Trump is moving more quickly than I had anticipated, but I suppose that was just me being naive. I do not think that my assessment of the future events, based on the administration's actions thus far, are wrong, either. So you can think I am crazy. I don't really care.
In order to get the attention of the people who may say, "He's not coming for me," protests are necessary. Not violence. Peaceful protest. I don't want to tear things down: That is what Trump is doing. Every student, every teacher, every laborer, every blue collar, white collar worker out there who believes in the system that existed before Trump and Doge should participate until we make the congress find its metaphorical balls and work like Congress is supposed to.
We need to act legally in the courts. We need to Organize and Protest. Sometimes to protect something you have to put a little of you on the line, or maybe even a lot.
I think JR is right, we need mass mobilization to happen sooner, before Trump can fuck something else up to steal the spotlight of our extremely short sighted media and culture.
One last thing: Protesting makes me feel good about myself because I know that I am at least trying to stop this insane machine that Trump has loosed on our beloved country, where it was getting closer and closer to everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, enjoying the same rights and respecting the same responsibilities. We get so close sometimes and then some asshole has to step in and shred every decent thing that we have spent decades and even lifetimes to build. What a fucking shame.
Where exactly does your pseudo reality hale from, cause protests DO impact issues, and with Trump, the malleable mental midget, with the maniacal misguided miscreant mentality, a protest that puts him down and gets ample enuff media coverage, and look out. He's unstable enough to go rogue, or fragile enough to attempt to save face, cause he has shown to be a total disgrace, a disgrace to the human race, and since that's the case, perhaps we should make haste before he gets something about Mary hair gel, splattered in his
face(his happy ending) it, he is a POS that you are tasked with an endless defense game trying to explain why he's like the others, when NO, NO HE IS NOT ! The reason peepholes are reacting so over the top, as you can plainly see, is because Trump is so over the top with how low he can and continues to go.
The poor excuse for the 'man' should be in prison, not sending others there, as he manipulates the market to take his shares, and insider trades with a few he decided should be in the knew know, and to hell he should go, and not fast enough for so many. Just like when he was anti-test during Covid cause it would naturally spike up the numbers, pro-test it will spike up his unfavorable, and Trumps fragile little ego got id, and as it should, as he should be brought or put down, in his place, like Putin Place, so he can go Pee with his friends upon.
Let me be clear. If you think protests matter anymore, you are deluding yourself. It's not 1960 and you're not Rosa Parks.
And a collective temper tantrum where you all shout at the sky is the best idea for "something" you can come up with?
Let's assume you're right. I think that view is overly dramatic and assumes a level of competence Trump has never displayed, but for the sake of this conversation, let's assume you're spot on.
The next time you stop to ponder in amazement how no new people are coming to your cause, remember that your opposition is using 21st century technology to target messaging toward tens of millions of people 24/7/365 while you're just pissing off the few you made late for work so you could shout at them.
Yes.
Or.... more accurately... you need to organize and do something that might actually help your cause.
Have you ever seen a street preacher? Old dude standing on a corner shouting the Gospel at hapless pedestrians, living in complete denial about the thousands of people he's driven away.
That's how non-protesters see protesters. They are religious fanatics completely divorced from reality, who think their religion is completely different from that of some other set of religious fanatics down the street and who remain firmly convinced that they will sound less crazy if they just shout louder.
Not if you're just going to fuck it up again. (see OWS and BLM)
It makes you feel good about yourself. That's all it does. If that's the real goal, then protest away.
But cut the bullshit that you're "trying". If you were actually trying, it wouldn't be so pathetic. There would be a plan, there would be money raised, there would be strategies to use social media to speak to people in ways that resonated with them instead of made the LW echo chamber "feel good". In general, it wouldn't suck so bad.
What we have been seeing of late is the protestors are nothing more than old leftover 60s hippies that were probably more wanting to get high on weed and LSD than protest.
The why did you bother Reply?
I wonder how many rwnj lives that's saved in the last 60 years ...
We have a number of young people today who romanticize protesting. They see something they think is unjust (sometimes it actually is) and they want to "do something". The problems we run into after that are directly tied to the abject failures in our educational systems.
You get up, stand up, stand out. There is nothing romantic about it. The people have power, but only in the mass can they be seen as any kind of threat to the people in power. That is how the people have always had to change governments when the governments no longer listened. Governments can handle different aspects of resistance, they have a definite problem when the people come out in large numbers against them. It has worked often throughout the world.
Go "poo-poo" someone else. I am not young. I know what I am doing. But I am not going to tell you.
Peace. We love you and respect your rights too.
I'm sure that christo-fascists implementing religious indoctrination in public schools will fix all that ... /s
Do you, though? Stand out, that is? Or are you just the next float in the world's most tedious parade?
Seriously, Hallmark movies are more different from each other than protests.
Yes. And then they waste it protesting.
Really? I think James Obergefell might disagree with you. As would Richard Loving. And Otis McDonald. Oh, and Oliver Brown. And how about Ernesto Miranda? We could go on for some time with this.
Also, I think Trump supporters changed it by voting. And Biden supporters before them.... yeah... they also voted. I'm pretty sure that's how representative governments work in general.
Yeah. You've said already. Doing something that makes you feel better about yourself.
Tell us how well OWS worked. What did that accomplish, exactly? How about BLM? Other than destroying $2billion worth of property... none of which belonged to Derek Chauvin... what did they accomplish?
What about that CHOP/CHAZ insurrection in Seattle? Any permanent changes there? No?
How about Jan 6 in DC? Oh... it turns out Biden's victory was confirmed that same day. I guess that didn't work out, either.
How about the Charlottesville "protest" and "counter protest"? Other than a street brawl and a young woman being killed while participating in an unlawful riot, what changed, exactly? The Robert E Lee statue that was going to come down... well.... it came down just like those rioters had never been there. There is a theme there.
So do leftists. They just don't agree on the religion. Fundamentalists want kids taught the Bible. Leftists want kids taught gender fluidity. The dark irony is how deeply convinced they are that they're utterly unlike the other.
Personally, I want kids taught math. If most of us understood math, most of the really stupid ideas in our political discourse would evaporate very quickly.
Charlottesville was a white supremacist rally. The statue controversy was a ruse.
Well, like it or not, they have a right to assemble.
The whole thing was a giant ruse for both sides. They all very obviously went there looking for a street fight.
So no one should protest open activity by an organized large group of neo Nazis and white supremacists ? I dont think the 30 year old woman that was killed was looking to "street fight" anybody.
The idea that both sides were looking for a fight thus, as Trump put it, both equally culpable , is preposterous.
First, it wasn't a large group, unless you're comparing it to a family reunion. It was a couple hundred people. I've been at larger Christmas parties.
Second, correct. Stay away. What possible good do you imagine you can achieve? Serious question. What do you hope to accomplish?
Next question... how do you not realize that those assholes are looking for somebody to fight with? That's their wet dream. Why in God's name would you give them what they want?
There are exactly three reasons you should be such an event.... 1) You agree with and want to support them. 2) You are a professional journalist covering the story 3) You are an LEO assigned to the event.
When you show up to "counter protest" (one of the stupidest phrases in the English language), all you are doing is shouting very loudly "look at us.... we're even more fucking crazy than those people".
She went to a rally with a group of people armed for a street fight. She was participating in an unlawful riot when she was killed. That said, you may be right. She may have been too stupid to realize the potential consequences of putting herself in such a situation.
I don't care what Trump said about it. The facts are not favorable for the anti-Nazi protesters.
They weren't equally culpable at all. Both sides took blunt weapons to their respective rallies They were both clearly looking for violence.
The RWNJs stayed in their designated permitted location (near the statue). The LWNJs left theirs and went to pick the fight. The group that violates their permit to travel with weapons to an opposing protest is definitely more culpable.
It requires a monumental (no pun intended) level of stupidity to give Nazis a self defense excuse, but LW protesters never seem to disappoint on that front.
If they weren't childish and stupid they might have thought to book a park across town and hold an African American cultural festival or even just a block party to raise money for a replacement statue. Imagine those two stories on the nightly news back to back. That's how you show who the better people are.
In this Country the Women's Suffrage Movement and the Civil Rights Movement stand out as exemplary instances of the power of protest. The Stonewall protests, which did turn into a riot sparked global Pride movements which arguably led to the legalization of same sex marriage in many countries.
Internationally there was Bangladesh last year, Sri Lanka had protests that resulted in new leadership, the "Velvet Revolution" in Armenia... There are lots of protests that succeed in their aims. Even the BLM protests, they were not all riots just because you say they were, lead to substantive change throughout the country, even though some people don't think that black lives matter.
And on your last paragraph, which you have used versions of before in conversation with us here on NT, well I put your paragraph into ChatGPT because I did not remember events following the outline that you gave and prompted it to fact check your version.
Chat GPT said:
And now we live in the era of Trumpian dystopia, backstopped by people who have a severely distorted world view, and we who see clearly must stand up.
It's ok, we still love you and respect your rights.
breach the 1st, receive the 2nd ...
So you have to go back 60 years. And then 100 years. Or you have to go to another country. You don't see the issue here?
Tell me you can't defend your position without telling me you can't defend your position.
You're not standing up. You're playing. You're doing something that makes you feel better and has no other impact on the world.
If you're so bothered by what's happening, then do something that's meaningful instead of stupid.
Yes, I see you looking for something that is not there,i.e. a reason why you are right in your assertion that protesting is useless.
I would say that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about, but that would be rude.
I put it into chatgpt because I don't feel like beating myself up for something that is going to be disregarded. And just because I use AI does not mean that I do not check the output or that I am somehow, as you would impune, deficient in my capabilities.
Now run along to bed.
Don't worry, we still love you and respect your rights.
You've already confirmed I'm right.
Again, it's not 1960 and you're not Rosa Parks. Protests don't work anymore.
You protest for personal gratification, and you fail to list a single success in the last 50 years.
I don't care. Think for yourself.
convenient time frame ...
Don't make me laugh. I have done nothing of the sort, except maybe in your mind, but there is no helping that.
You seem to assume that I am one dimensional: operating on one level only. Therefore, you assume that I give a fuck about your opinion of what I am doing to stop the Trump Regime from absorbing all power possible. Why else would you bother to keep telling me that protest is futile?
Protest has worked in so many ways, but for some reason you do not want me to protest. Why would that be?
Why name drop without giving the specifics of the reasons why my prostestations are futile?
You claim that I "protest for personal gratification, and [I] fail to list a single success in the last 50 years," yet I have listed successes but somehow they "Don't count" because they are not located in this country.
I think that your logic is full of holes and will not be responding to any further posts because you obviously have nothing specific to add and are therefore just IMO trolling.
Remember, though, we still love you and still respect your rights, if you are human.
despite their insistence to the contrary, maga doesn't like most of the rights granted in the US constitution ...
Well pick your own, then.
He pointed out exactly 2 wins in the last 110 years, if we don't count the fact that suffragettes protested for another 50.
We literally have catastrophic global pandemics more often.
[✘]
How do you measure if protests are effective or not?
Seems to me that some major legislation consistent with the protests must be passed to have any means of arguing causation.
Without such a key event, how can one even formulate an opinion on the effectiveness of public demonstrations? As with product marketing spending $$$ to introduce a product and get it as part of mindshare, it takes a large, sustained effort just to get people to recognize the problem (and solution).
Accordingly, many protests will not have key events but arguably raise awareness and that is the first step to people paying attention and maybe forming an opinion which likely will be first reflected in the polls,
Or minor legislation. Or some measurable change other than protesters feeling better.
Still waiting on an explanation about painting "Black Lives Matter" on a street in bright yellow paint actually improves the lives of the black people in question.
That's like asking how one can formulate an opinion on the effectiveness of a basketball team that doesn't make any baskets.
"Raising awareness" is the excuse they give when they realize they've made no difference. It's feckless, pathetic, and idiotic on several levels. It presumes everybody else is as clueless as they are. (like we all somehow didn't realize big banks were screwing everybody over. Just stop.) It ignores all the people they have alienated with their foolishness. It also utterly ignores the hundreds of more effective methods of raising awareness.
I mean.... if only there was a way to communicate with millions of people instantaneously. It wouldn't have to be long messages. Maybe 280 characters or so.... Or if there was somewhere to share videos that could educate people on the topic in question. I know.... What if people could carry around some sort of handheld device that allowed them not only to take the video but share it with lots of people... that would be something.
It's not like we have a multi billion dollar industry with the sole task of mass communication.
C'mon. You are far too rational to be enabling their nonsense.
My subtle point is that there may be no way to measure the effect. At least not in the short term. It takes quite a while to secure mindshare. So I am certainly not convinced that protests are not effective. I am inclined to believe they do influence people the same way that continued advertisement influences people.
You consider people protesting the tariffs (for example) to be clueless? That their protests are necessarily dishonest? I do not see why you are so against protests and why you stoop to degrading those who protest.
I find it odd that you do not recognize the difference between standard media information (which many just tune out) and news of a series of protests. New events like a significant protest get attention and people naturally will be interested in why people are protesting. What they do after they find out depends on the person, but getting attention is a critical factor in influencing people. Most people just live their lives oblivious to politics.
If protests were a common practice in the USA (as they were in France, for example) then your point would have merit. The protests are just yet another predictable 'news'. But our protests are infrequent enough to gain attention and that is the key value.
Whether or not they work is, I believe, very difficult to ascertain. But dismissing them, as you have, seems to be unsupported.
For many 21st century protests, there is no possibility of effect because the stated goals of the protest are often not formulated until it's well underway. (see BLM and OWS)
For others, the very idea that they could possibly impact anything is moronic from the start. Does anyone anywhere think that some group of students protesting in Seattle or NY is somehow going to change the minds of Israeli leadership after Oct 7? To that point, we have American protesters chanting "from the river to the sea" without being able to name either.
Do I consider them to be clueless and/or dishonest? They're either one or the other. They either realize they're not going to accomplish anything and they just protest because it makes them feel better (dishonest, even with themselves), or they live in some fantasy world where the leaders of Israel are ever going to give a shit about American college students, especially after Oct 7.
There are other ways to draw attention or raise awareness that are proven to be thousands of times more effective than protests.
As far as comparisons to France, I'm going to challenge the idea that it's significantly less common here anymore.
Between pro-Palestine, hands off, general anti-Trumpness, Kilmar Garcia, any one of a dozen other deportees, PETA, Texas school vouchers, Karmelo Anthony, Tesla dealerships, SCOTUS justices homes, LGBT protests outside the SCOTUS building, other protests outside the SCOTUS building, pro-ACA, anti-ACA, anti-DOGE, and dozens of other more obscure causes, I don't think it's at all realistic to claim protests are infrequent enough to gain attention.
We're back to the basketball team that doesn't score any baskets. We can add that the reason they don't score any baskets is that they take all their shots underhand from 80 feet away.
We can certainly sit here and enable that nonsense. We can say things like "it's difficult to measure this strategy in the short term" or "just give them time and eventually this will work". Or we can be realistic and call that idiocy what it is.
I'm old enough to see protests work. they're working now in the rollback of doge decisions in locales across the US. they're working in townhalls, so much so that the party of cowards is avoiding them ...
Example?
Oh FFS. Like anybody involved with DOGE or the Trump Administration gives a flying fuck about liberal protests. That's like saying the rooster caused the sun to rise.
Seems you have made up your mind. Your entire post was based on the premise that the protesters are clueless or dishonest. You flat out reject the idea that protests can affect political mindshare.
Since your claim is unfalsifiable and you seem determined to just repeat your position, this discussion is pointless.
mobius strip defense ...
You just figured that out?
You're acting as though these two things should not go together. Which is wildly ironic given that you often justify your own views based on lack of contrary evidence.
Bullshit. Don’t resort to making shit up. The word ‘often’ is a lie.
Don't deny something you brag about.
Another lie.
I'm beginning to think that it's becoming useless to post the truth on this site. It's only going to be denied or deflected from. But, after all, the internet has become a killing field of misinformation, disinformation and ourright lies so what else can anyone expect.
I think it is fair to say that criticism of Trump will likely result in dishonest 'rebuttals' rather than sound arguments.
I believe the reason is twofold. First, Trump continues to make bad decisions. Second, if one is inclined to defend Trump (or the GOP in general) then dishonesty offers more options than trying to find a way to defend him with the truth.
[ This reply is in response to your comment as a general observation and ignores the current context. I am not in any way tying this to Jack's recent comments. ]
Here's a third: "truth" does not have the same definition for MAGAs as for normal people.
"Truth", for MAGAs, is what is produced by the Ministry of Truth, and transmitted by local gruppenführern to local soldaten. The content is irrelevant to the notion of "truth" - only the source is significant.
Never anything wrong with posting what you believe is the truth. That is just your opinion. Just remember there is often a difference between "truth" and facts. Try not to conflate the two.
Let's test that. Is Trump defying the SCotUS unanimous order to facilitate the release and return of Garcia?
I agree that there is a difference between what one BELIEVES to be the truth, which is opinion, and facts, but there is no difference between truth and facts. Truth must be the opposite of falsehood or else the word is meaningless.
Problem is some folks think what they believe is truth is actually the truth. That is not the same ,IMO, as actual facts.
To me, the word truth means the primary dictionary definition of it, not an opinionated concept. To me, part a of Merriam-Webster's definition is what I consider it to mean, while perhaps to others, part b is applicable .
Jane Austen's novel Pride and Prejudice opens with this sentence. "'It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife".
That, in my opinion, falls within part b of Merriam-Webster's definition, because it is not necessarily factual.
For MAGAs,.the word "truth" has a special meaning. It is whatever the Ministry of Truth decrees, transmitted by grupenführern to soldaten, who then post it on social media sites including NT. Factuality is not a criterion.
Of course there is.
Facts can be curated to obscure, slant, and sway. They are just data.
Let me give you an example...
Now... what's the truth?
The second example contains information that would have to have been proven to be true in a court of law before it could be considered factual.
Data is an observation. For example "Heather Heyer has no brain function" is data.
A fact is data that has been verified to conform to reality. For example "Heather Heyer is dead" is a fact.
Truth is typically a higher level interpretation of multiple facts that have been highly corroborated and considered correct. Note that truth is a limit function ... it represents the infinite refinement of our interpretation. Practically speaking, truth is the highest level of objective reality that we (human beings) can achieve in a reasonable time frame. An example here is "Heather Heyer was murdered by a white supremacist".
In your example, both cases are true in that they both correctly represent reality:
What you have demonstrated is the art of expressing facts (at a level of truth even) in a way that connotes an unstated position or idea. You have illustrated (honest) spin ... spin where lying was not used.
The amount of spin from the right is down right dizzying.
That's not true. It was peaceful and legal. But hey! Smear the victim!
Heather was protesting the 'Unite The Right' rally which turned violent and was later deemed illegal.
I took exception with the 'participating' verb ... thus I qualified it.
The word 'participating' is an example of word choice that creates the spin.
Regardless, both statements are facts. But each paints a very different picture.
Truth is more than just facts.
Sure.
So the point here is that truth and facts are different things.
Check the facts. Both sets of protesters went armed with clubs, and it was officially declared an unlawful riot about 2 hours before she was killed.
FFS. At least try to pay attention. She's not even the point of the conversation.
But what if the "facts" may not be true? In your example some facts needed to be proven, and in fact could just end up being speculation.
The same can be said with truth. I think that is why "my truth" became such a popular phrase recently
You brought her in... and you smeared her. She died; you apparently see no problem. But hey!
I was reacting to this from you:
I disagree. A fact is not mere data; a fact is based on data and is verified to be objectively correct (given human limitations).
I agree that a fact can be interpreted in a way to create a false narrative. The fact remains the same, but that false narrative would not be truth.
If a fact is not true (as far as human beings can determine; we never achieve absolute certainty in reality) then it is not a fact.
Nice work!
These days there are people who will put a spin on anything and everything. Reality has become a fragile and elusive thing.
Let's review and see if you can follow along.
Buzz stated that there was no difference between truth and facts.
I gave two (2) statements of fact about Heather Heyer. Both of those statements are factually accurate based on easily verifiable evidence. Both are "facts".
Neither is a complete representation of the "truth".
OK, facts are just verified data.
The point is still that truth and facts are different things.
Then they are not "facts".
Oh. The world is not black or white! Gosh! What a brilliant observation.
Some people learn to place events on a sliding scale, from true to false. "Heather Heyer was the innocent victim of a fascist murder" is mostly true. "Heather Heyer deserved what happened to her" is mostly false. But hey!
Some people never learn.....
Well I'm glad you've finally come to that understanding.
Some people learn the difference between facts and opinions.
Maybe that can be the next lesson. Or maybe it should be "reading carefully for accuracy and understanding" or maybe "accurate representation of other people's statements".
I'm not giving up on you yet.
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I'm completely in favor of using maga legal theories against them, after they're removed from power, and then fixing those legal loopholes permanently. stamp their passports no re-entry and let the foreign prisons that hold them ransom their maga families into poverty for their release.
warrantless home invasions, no due process, and deportations of citizens will come in handy after the next civil war ...
I hear somalia is real nice, and convenient to everything maga holds dear ...