“The Alliance Defending Freedom is a household name for many who been have followed religious liberty cases in recent years.

A multiple-time winner at the U.S. Supreme Court, the organization takes on cases such as the blatant intolerance by Colorado for the Christian faith of Masterpiece baker Jack Phillips.

It also organizes campaigns each year to affirm the free speech rights of pastors.

And it has a special division, the ADF Church Alliance,which focuses on the threats facing churches in America.

There are seven significant current threats, according to John Harding of ADF, who warns that churches need to be prepared and protected legally.

The major threats, he said, are:

1. The potential loss of a provision that treats pastors’ housing as tax-exempt. It is being challenged by the Freedom from Religion Foundation at the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.
2. The church exemption from requirements to file a Form 990 with the IRS, which can reveal private donor information. If the case is lost, churches would be forced to disclose private information to the the public. And it could open the door for further tax-exemption challenges.”

You forgot the #1 threat to Christian Churches in America today! Access to information! That's right, more kids have access to facts and science then ever before via the internet. The growing movement of logic and reason based living over outdated, vestigial superstitions is growing and the churches are getting scared as they see their coffers drying up, their meal ticket is slowing evaporating as more and more people question the logic of following superstitious rituals to appease an invisible all powerful wizard in the sky.

1.  Anybody can become a minister just by signing up online.  Should they all get tax exempt housing?

2.  In order to be tax exempt they have to file a 990 form?  Poor babies.

3.  Churches should not be allowed to use public facilities.  They have not paid any taxes to support these facilities.  They should rent the Grange hall or something.

4.  Any idiot knows that, before you buy a building, you should check the zoning to see if it's suitable to your needs.

5.  So...  Your Trump tax cut includes hidden taxes?  Write your Congressman.

6.  I know that, being Christians you would rather just not give your employees ANYTHING.  So...  Tough.

7.  According to IRS rules no non-profits are allowed to endorse any political campaign.  You want to endorse candidates and issues?  Pay taxes like everybody else.

To me these all sound like a bunch of money issues.  Save your church Heartland.  Double your tithe.

Traditional Christianity faces a clear and present danger in America from her secular progressives.  

secular progressives.  

We live in a secular nation, not a theocracy, sorry. 

That has nothing to do with the laws in this country. Read the first amendment. 

Religious freedom is, and always will be, subordinate to the US Constitution. There is nothing in the Constitution about organized religion being allowed to operate as tax exempt businesses. Thumpers are free to dictate ignorant dogma to their gullible benefactors, but to nobody else in secular America. It's high time to open their books for means testing of all churches to qualify as charities and their tax exempt status. Any participation of organized religion in politics is a violation of the establishment clause of the 1st amendment. It's time to draw the line on meddlesome religious interference in politics and punish those that cross it with fines, prison time, and loss of tax exempt status. Turning a blind eye to their violations in the past has brought America to this point in time now. They can no longer be allowed to lander money and exert political influence for those willing to pander to their unamerican and unconstitutional beliefs. Tax their properties, tax their businesses, tax their investments, and tax their collection plates. Let them deduct their charitable contributions to acceptable charities. Remove them as a charitable tax deduction on income tax forms, which is also a violation of the establishment clause, and let their membership contribute to acceptable charities directly for a deduction. Eliminate churches as a political weapon.

We live in a secular nation

 . . . founded by religious people. Half the colonies were founded for religious reasons. The rest were economic but - again - populated by religious people. The 1st Amendment exists to protect religious beliefs and practices. Writing or unfairly enforcing laws and policies for the purpose of making life difficult for religious people violates that old tradition, which is enshrined in our laws.

not a theocracy

No one is trying elect priests and give them to power to rule based on the Bible instead of the Constitution, so suggesting that we are anywhere close to a theocracy is a little silly.

You mean the part about freedom of religion and the right to free exercise there of?

. . . founded by religious people. Half the colonies were founded for religious reasons. The rest were economic but - again - populated by religious people. The 1st Amendment exists to protect religious beliefs and practices. Writing or unfairly enforcing laws and policies for the purpose of making life difficult for religious people violates that old tradition, which is enshrined in our laws.

The abuse of the rights of others because of their religious beliefs began almost immediately. Even the Christian sects were warring between themselves.

smithsonianmag

The religious rights of Christians and others end when other people become involved because those other people have the very same religious and secular rights and that includes the right to believe differently or not to believe at all. 

You mean the part about freedom of religion and the right to free exercise there of?

Religious freedom cannot violate the LAWS of a SECULAR society. Nor can they violate someone else's civil rights. Deal with it. 

Religious freedom is, and always will be, subordinate to the US Constitution.

No, Religion is protected in the Constitution.

There is nothing in the Constitution about organized religion being allowed to operate as tax exempt businesses

Yeah, there kind of is. It's in the 1st Amendment.

Two hundred years ago, the Chief Justice pointed out (in Marbury v Madison) that "the power to tax is the power to destroy." i.e., taxing someone or something exercises sovereignty over that person or thing. Doing that to the church would be an example of the state trying to exercise sovereignty over the church. 

In 1970, in Walz v. Tax Commission of City of New York , 397 U.S. 664, the Supreme Court found that taxing the churches would entangle the government with churches in a way that would violate the 1st Amendment far more than exempting them would. Here is the summary of holdings from that case:

Held:

1. The First Amendment tolerates neither governmentally established religion nor governmental interference with religion. Pp. 397 U. S. 667 -672.

2. The legislative purpose of tax exemptions is not aimed at establishing, sponsoring, or supporting religion, and New York's legislation simply spares the exercise of religion from the burden of property taxation levied on private profit institutions. Pp. 397 U. S. 672 -674.

3. The tax exemption creates only a minimal and remote involvement between church and state, far less than taxation of churches would entail, and it restricts the fiscal relationship between them, thus tending to complement and reinforce the desired separation insulating each from the other. Pp. 397 U. S. 674 -676.

4. Freedom from taxation for two centuries has not led to an established church or religion, and, on the contrary, has helped to guarantee the free exercise of all forms of religious belief. Pp. 397 U. S. 676 -680.

Nobody wants to stop you from "freedom of religion, and the right to free exercise there of". What you don't have is the right to shove your religion down anyone else's throat, nor do you have any guarantee of a free ride. If you want that move to the middle east or the Vatican.

The congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion (or prohibiting the free exercise thereof) do you forget to read the whole thing. 

Your religious beliefs have definite limits and they are at the end of your nose where the equal secular and religious rights of others begin. To put it another way, your religious rights end when other people become involved in them, especially against their will.   Your religious rights in no way supersede the secular or religious rights of other people, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.  Christians do not have more religious rights of others or group rights because of the idea that they are a social majority due to the fact there is no such concept as cumulative religious rights. 

founded by religious people.

So was Jones Town. 

In 1970, in Walz v. Tax Commission of City of New York , 397 U.S. 664, the Supreme Court found that taxing the churches would entangle the government with churches in a way that would violate the 1st Amendment far more than exempting them would.

Fine.

Why was it constitutional for President Bill Clinton in 1996 to give taxpayer money to churches and allow them to distribute federal welfare money?

Clinton's actions allowed Bush to expand on them in 2002 and give even more taxpayer money to churches and allow them to preach to the poor if they needed government assistance.

These programs continued during Obama's tenure as POTUS.  I don't know if Trump or his minions know or care about the funding.

We, as citizens and taxpayers, should have a detailed accounting of how much of our money has been poured into churches.  We should know if we are paying for pastor's homes, salaries, and even lawyers to fight our constitution's separation of church and state ( which is being violated by them taking taxpayer money).

cbsnews

President Bush is enacting by executive fiat key pieces of his divisive "faith-based initiative," including one that lets federal contractors use religious favoritism in their hiring.

Hoping to involve churches and religious organizations more deeply in government efforts to address social ills, Mr. Bush on Thursday was to sign an executive order aimed at giving those groups a leg up in the competition for federal money, administration officials said. He was announcing the changes in a speech to religious and charitable leaders in Philadelphia.

The president began pushing the issue on Capitol Hill in his second week in office but ran into a fierce debate over how religious groups could get government money without running afoul of the constitutional separation of church and state.

He was successful in the House but the Senate wouldn't even give him a watered-down version that mainly increased tax breaks for charitable giving.

Even with next year's total Republican control of Congress sure to create a more friendly environment, Mr. Bush decided to forge ahead on his own.

By far the most contentious of the changes is Mr. Bush's executive order informing federal agencies that religious organizations refusing to hire people of any faith can still win contracts. Civil rights law bars discrimination on the basis of religion, but constitutional problems arise when government money is involved.

Religious charities have long been a part of the nonprofit network that delivers many government services. But historically, these groups have had to keep their work government contracts separate from their religious activities — setting up separate entities to administer the contracts, and delivering the government services in an area free of religious practice or symbol.

That began to change under the welfare reform law of 1996, which included provisions on charitable choice, which allowed religious organizations to perform government services without keeping their faith-based activities separate. Charitable Choice covered programs like Temporary Assistance for Needy Families as well as welfare-to-work, community block grant and substance abuse programs. Mr. Bush's order will extend this to more programs.

Churches receive money from the government so they can distribute it to people in need in the same way that secular organizations do. The primary focus in those cases is the aid. The fact that religious people are doing the distribution or that it might take place on religious sites isn't considered important enough to prevent them from doing the good work they are doing.

Churches receive money from the government so they can distribute it to people in need in the same way that secular organizations do.

How does that work with other things like the Noah's Ark museum?

Noah’s Ark theme park getting $1.8 million state tax rebate after first year

 Try reading history.

And what does that really mean.  Explain your understanding of the comment

Churches receive money from the government so they can distribute it to people in need in the same way that secular organizations do. The primary focus in those cases is the aid. The fact that religious people are doing the distribution or that it might take place on religious sites isn't considered important enough to prevent them from doing the good work they are doing.

The George W. Bush concept of faith-based public initiatives needs to end. Government money should not be flowing through religious hands into the general population because it isn't distributed equally.  

The George W. Bush concept of faith-based public initiatives needs to end

It's hardly a Bush concept. The Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships was inspired by and followed in the footsteps of Bill Clinton's Charitable Choice principles. He signed those programs into law repeatedly. Bush added to the work and the Obama expanded it, but it really began began in 1996 with the passage of the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act, a welfare reform law. If you want to blame somebody, look to Bill Clinton, but I think the real lesson here is that the wisdom of government working with churches to the benefit of more needy people is clear to most people, no matter what party they belong to.

That’s because the faith based charities distribute the relief/aid much more efficiently than government and others do on their own. That efficiency allows groups and individuals the faith based are helping to get more bang for the government buck.  

That’s because the faith based charities distribute the relief/aid much more efficiently than government and others do on their own. That efficiency allows groups and individuals the faith based are helping to get more bang for the government buck.  

Do you have any proof of that claim, that doesn't come from a religious source? 

This religious nonsense needs to end. If you serve the general public then you must keep religious observance out of the program. The needy cannot be required to take part in religious observance to get aid funded by the taxpayers. 

Research also has shown that religious social service providers who receive government funds commonly and openly maintain religious content in their programming, with no government interference. In a 1993-94 survey, only 11 percent of religiously affiliated, government-funded child service agencies and 22 percent of similarly funded international aid agencies reported having to curtail religious activities. Moreover, most of the activities that were sanctioned, such as requiring attendance at religious services, are among those activities (worship, religious instruction, proselytizing) that still are prohibited both by the “charitable choice” provision of the 1996 welfare reform legislation and by the December 2002 executive order.¹⁰

Good job bumping the article up, you're definitely getting more attention now than you did with the original seed

his seeds usually have 2nd comings, and 3rd, and 4th....

Well I'm sure his girlfriend appreciates that

The potential loss of a provision that treats pastors’ housing as tax-exempt. It is being challenged by the Freedom from Religion Foundation at the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

Their housing? Does this mean the church or a private home? If it's the church, it's already tax exempt...which should be taken away anyway. If it's a private home? No way it should be tax exempt. If that's the case, all anyone has to do is create a religion about....anything, and file for tax exempt status....bingo, no more taxes from homeowners. 

Oooohh, you're onto something.  Can my house be a shrine to the FSM?

All hail angel hair. And my religion doesn't even involve twelve steps.

You forgot clam sauce. Pagan.

Well, there is always garlic and butter.

All hail angel hair. And my religion doesn't even involve twelve steps.

I'll make the lasagna and minestrone for an FSM holiday, but some else has to bring the wine and bread.

I like to bake, so I'll bring the bread.

Yes but i get to bless it...to make it official...😁

I like to bake, so I'll bring the bread.

I'll make a run to the store to get the ingredients.

I have bread flour and yeast, but could you pick up extra butter?  The real deal - margarine is offensive to the FSM.

One or two pounds? Salted or unsalted?

The price of vanilla extract is crazy.  I used to buy Nielsen-Massey but when the price tripled I changed to something cheaper. Nutmeg was also insanely expensive the last time I bought some. 

I need to remember to get walnuts, almonds, hazelnuts, pecans, plus mint and almond extract. 

Two, please.  I'm baking cookies.  Salted.  I know unsalted is supposed to be better, but I don't care.  I use salted.

I have a whole bottle of vanilla extract, and most of a bottle of almond extract.  Just bought some orange extract for a cookie recipe I want to try.

Two, please.  I'm baking cookies.  Salted.  I know unsalted is supposed to be better, but I don't care.  I use salted.

I'll get that for you. I have a stash of about 10lbs in my freezer when I want to bake so I don't need to go to the store.

I have a whole bottle of vanilla extract, and most of a bottle of almond extract.  Just bought some orange extract for a cookie recipe I want to try.

I just bought a bottle of vanilla on Amazon. I wanted to bake biscotti last week and discovered that my bottle of almond extract was empty.  I'm not sure that I have orange extract. I know that I have lemon, but I only had a few drops of mint and I need about 1/4 of a tsp for chocolate mint cookies that my BF loves.

 I mixed up a double batch of sugar cookies the other day and baked 2 dozen but I made the mistake of not letting the dough come to room temperature before I baked them. They baked up as little domes instead of spreading out. They tasted fine but they looked a little weird.  They were gone in 8 hours, so he didn't mind the look.

Mmmm, chocolate mint.

My son and I used to bake and decorate sugar cookies every Christmas, and chocolate chip cookies pretty often.  Then he figure out that I was using baking to teach him fractions, and he didn't want to do it anymore.  But he actually asked to bake cookies a few weeks ago, so I jumped at the chance.

Our sugar cookies spread further than I'd like, but they get eaten all the same, too.

Our sugar cookies spread further than I'd like, but they get eaten all the same, too.

I usually roll the cookies out and cut them in 3" rounds or festive shapes but I was feeling lazy so I just scooped them out with a teaspoon and rolled them into balls. I expected them to spread out but they didn't. 

They are chocolate mint cookies with green mint icing. It was my grandmother's recipe.

Growing up my daughter's favorite cookie was oatmeal butterscotch or biscotti. 

If I can find phyllo dough locally I'll make baklava.

Just bought a hole saw kit and it has a 3" in it, in case you need a hand!

Just bought a hole saw kit and it has a 3" in it, in case you need a hand!

I hope that my cookies aren't so tough that I need to use that.

If I stack my textbooks and such in a corner of the living room can I claim my house off as a scientific church?

If that doesn't work I'll follow Sandy's idea.........

Yes you may.. Lol

Thank you. I'll begin the design work tomorrow.

Lack of interest is something the Alliance Defending Freedom can't protect them from

I think the biggest problem Christianity is facing in America is getting asses into the pews.

Actually saw somebody on my hometown Face Book page bitching that they can't get people into the churches...

Doing the lord's work was never in the interest of teavangelical filth. It's about the accumulation of wealth to buy legislators to impose their dogma on others and perpetuate their tax scam. They don't need anybody in the pews when they can buy media outlets and other profitable businesses that are tax exempt, undercut the operating expenses of legitimate businesses and then use the profits to repeat the process and stuff the pockets of their "clergy".

Your right and it's affecting almost every faith. No one goes to church or synagogue anymore. 

South Carolina  pastor  gives lengthy explanation for buying  wife  $ 200 , 000  Lamborghini

I still do and church is well filled most weekends.  

South Carolina  pastor  gives lengthy explanation for buying  wife  $ 200 , 000  Lamborghini

Maybe there is more truth in your post than you may think Kavika.

To follow anothers unique and effective recognition grabbing precedent: ALERT!!! ALERT!!! THIS IS NOT PROSELYTIZING. This is referencing scripture in support of  statement of concern. No one is being persuaded to convert to anything. Rather, within scriptural based context of principle based on scriptural dogma, The devil made me do it, there is absolutely no reason scripture can not be used as reference to support the referenced statement.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

quora

John O’Gara , I consider myself a true Christian

Answered Mar 22 2017 · Author has 696 answers and 363.1k answer views

Below are the verses you want to know about, taken from a modern translation that makes the reading a lot easier to follow and to understand.

“I write you, fathers, because you have come to know him who is from the beginning. I write you, young men, because you are strong and the word of God remains in you and you have conquered the wicked one. 15 Do not love either the world or the things in the world . If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world— the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life —does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.” 1 John 2:14–17 NWT.

What did John mean when he said “Do not love either the world or the things in the world?” John did not mean that we should not love the planet we live on but he was talking about the world of mankind that is alienated from God. That would include the practices and conduct that the “world” finds completely acceptable, but are condemned in God’s word the bible.

Jesus’ first century disciples and apostles stayed separate from the world of their day, and that is what John is urging Christians to do. Satan is the present god of this world, so a Christian needs to separate himself from the kind of things that God does not approve of. The world in general, has turned a deaf ear and a blind eye to the biblical teachings of morality.

“among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through” 2 Corinthians 4:4

When John writes about “the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes” he is writing about illicit desires that a Christian should avoid. The eyes are said to be a window to the world. For example: God made some women very beautiful and he expects his people to admire that beauty. However when that admiration turns to lustful desires a male Christian should turn his eyes in another direction, unless, of course, he is looking at his wife. Look what Job did to control lustful desires:

“I have made a covenant with my eyes. So how could I show improper attention to a virgin?” Job 31:1

In summary, John was giving advice on how Christians should live in a world that does not share their values. Speaking about his disciples, Jesus had this to say while praying to his heavenly father:

“I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. They are no part of the world , just as I am no part of the world .” John 17:15,16

Christians need to fight the tendency to be attracted to wrong desires and conduct. We know the world does not share our values, rather it is as this verse points out:

“We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one .” 1 John 5:19

P.S. I am not associated with the author above, but did a google on a couple scriptures which are pertinent to the thought and what i quoted popped up.

Get's across the reasoning I had in mind.

When in Rome....or where have you.

He didn't buy it.  The gullible sheeple did.

Some local jurisdictions have denied churches the use of public facilities to which other organizations readily are granted access. A case in Edisto Beach, California, has “big implications for church plants and other small churches who cannot otherwise afford to build.”

They wanted to hold a religious service in a taxpayer owned facility and the city council decided it would be a violation of the first amendment to allow the service to be held there. No different than forcing kids to pray at school. 

Some local governments claim that zoning codes override the rights of churches, blocking them from using buildings they already own. “In one ADF case, the government went so far as to threaten a church with substantial fines.”

Again...secular laws, secular nation. If the church bought these buildings without checking the zoning laws, that's their own damn fault. If the zoning laws changed AFTER they bought the buildings, (unlikely), then they should file for an amendment to exempt the buildings they purchased. 

Another article claiming that these people are victims. They already have freedom of religion, but want even more freedom? Shit in one hand, want in the other....

Another article claiming that these people are victims. They already have freedom of religion, but want even more freedom? Shit in one hand, want in the other....

They are convinced that they are being persecuted if the American people and the US Constitution will not allow them to create a fundamentalist Christian country. 

That is the bottom line of it all.  They're so damn persecuted!  They have crossed the lines and just hate being caught at it and hate being reigned in.  The truth is, they give no choice.  

I could care less what anyone believes until they use their dogma as a weapon. 

That is the bottom line of it all.  They're so damn persecuted!  They have crossed the lines and just hate being caught at it and hate being reigned in.  The truth is, they give no choice.  

I could care less what anyone believes until they use their dogma as a weapon. 

They are somehow convinced that the social majority gives them the right or power to legislate their religious nuttery as secular law. The fact that we all have equal religious rights to believe or not to believe as we choose and that the Bill of Rights exists to prevent tyranny of the popular majority is an anathema to them and their precious religious beliefs. 

Perceived persecution has always been a cornerstone of religion.

Cornerstone?  No, foundation.

Another bullshit article claiming christian victimhood......have they NEVER heard of the Constitution and the First Amendment.

It’s the constitution that gives us the freedom of religion and the right to freely exercise those beliefs. The Alliance Defending Freedom is doing a great and just work on behalf of the religious liberty 🗽 of all believers.  

It’s the constitution that gives us the freedom of religion and the right to freely exercise those beliefs. The Alliance Defending Freedom is doing a great and just work on behalf of the religious liberty 🗽 of all believers.  

Your religious rights are limited to the right to believe and the right to worship as you please. You don't have the right to involve others in your religious beliefs, especially in a public business.   You most certainly do not have the right to legislate your beliefs. as secular law

It’s the constitution that gives us the freedom of religion and the right to freely exercise those beliefs.

Please explain how someone responding to you with "Happy Holidays" is preventing you from freely exercising your beliefs? How exactly is saying that if you preach politics from the pulpit you lose your tax exempt status preventing you from practicing your faith? Are you saying you can't practice without tax exempt status? That the government must subsidize your faith even if you're really just a Christian flavored political action committee and without that tax exempt subsidy you're not able to practice your faith? Really? Is that the persecution you're so often loudly complaining about and why you feel the need to keep seeding these "Christian Extinction!" scare pieces that are basically just meant to give little Christian kids nightmares. "Beware the bad people waging their war on Christians, sleep tight and don't let the liberals or progressives bite!".

Please explain how someone responding to you with "Happy Holidays" is preventing you from freely exercising your beliefs? How exactly is saying that if you preach politics from the pulpit you lose your tax exempt status preventing you from practicing your faith? Are you saying you can't practice without tax exempt status?

I'd like to know how a church and a minister are necessary for a person to practice their faith. I don't have access to a Humanist church and I certainly don't know any humanists that live near me so are my religious rights being violated because of it? 

The more people like Heartland bring this up and the more often it gets discussed the more and more people realize just how absurd religious belief is.  The fact that we can now have people from all over the world discuss any topic in real time makes people that much more aware just how illogical ideas like religious belief and conservative political policies are. This is the beauty of the internet. 

I see your valid questions have left heartland speechless.

Reality is such a bummer, dontca know! 

The biggest threat to religious belief is old people dying off and the younger generations are not as gullible to believe in something that has no proof of existing. Intelligence and old age are the enemy of religious belief. 

The biggest threat to religious belief is old people dying off and the younger generations are not as gullible to believe in something that has no proof of existing. Intelligence and old age are the enemy of religious belief. 

Exactly. Man created 'god', man created science and science banished 'god'. The reality is that Christianity is on the decline...

Christianity  is the most adhered to  religion in the United States , with 75% of polled American adults identifying themselves as Christian in 2015. ^{[1] [2]}  This is down from 85% in 1990, lower than 81.6% in 2001, ^[3]  and slightly lower than 78% in 2012. ^[4]  About 62% of those polled claim to be members of a church congregation. ^[5]  The United States has the  largest Christian population  in the world, with nearly 240 million Christians, although other countries have higher percentages of Christians among their populations.

en.wikipedia

Exactly. Man created 'god', man created science and science banished 'god'. The reality is that Christianity is on the decline...

Ancient man created a god that reflected and enforced their own opinions. Patriarchial, racist, sexist, violent, and ignorant of facts. 

It was also created as a system of control. "Live the way we tell you and you'll live eternally in green fields and perpetual bliss and joy....Don't live the way we tell you and you burn in a lake of fire and torment for all eternity." People 'back then' didn't know any better so they did what they were told by the church, no questions asked. When the first sparks of science came around many of those clinging to scientific facts were executed. 

Religion was also a great way to explain things they didn't understand....comets, earthquakes, meteors, plague, famine, etc.. "Must be God!!!"

Now we know the truth, and the facts and as you pointed out, younger people aren't so easily fooled by televangelists needing 300 million for a new jet. 

It was also created as a system of control. "Live the way we tell you and you'll live eternally in green fields and perpetual bliss and joy....Don't live the way we tell you and you burn in a lake of fire and torment for all eternity." People 'back then' didn't know any better so they did what they were told by the church, no questions asked. When the first sparks of science came around many of those clinging to scientific facts were executed. 

Religion was also a great way to explain things they didn't understand....comets, earthquakes, meteors, plague, famine, etc.. "Must be God!!!"

Now we know the truth, and the facts and as you pointed out, younger people aren't so easily fooled by televangelists needing 300 million for a new jet. 

Organized religion has always been about social control. It is easier and more permanent to control people with thoughts and ideas than with chains and bars that they can fight and rebel against because they can see the latter oppressors.  I have felt for a very long time that Christianity in general and the Catholic church, in particular, are the last remnants of the Roman empire. 

All true! Well said. I don't have a problem with people practicing whatever religion they want, but ORGANIZED religion is a cancer that has gone untreated for far too long. 

The Catholic Church is a carryover from that empire and is what survived the fall of it.  It took about 1,000 years for Christianity to begin to recover from that with the Protestant Reformers and the Reformation.  

and how do you propose to treat those of us wanting to affiliate with an organized religion?  What kind of cancer are we to you? 

The Catholic Church is a carryover from that empire and is what survived the fall of it.  It took about 1,000 years for Christianity to begin to recover from that with the Protestant Reformers and the Reformation.  

The Protestant church would not exist without the Catholic church. Martin Luther was a disgruntled priest. 

and how do you propose to treat those of us wanting to affiliate with an organized religion?  

By teaching logic and a mandatory year of cult deprogramming.

What kind of cancer are we to you? 

I won't answer that for fear of purple ink.

and how do you propose to treat those of us wanting to affiliate with an organized religion

You missed the point completely. ORGANIZED religion is a SCAM. Nothing wrong with worshiping whatever the heck you want, but when you have religious leaders asking for fat stacks of cash for jets and cars, it's a SCAM. 

You missed the point completely. ORGANIZED religion is a SCAM. Nothing wrong with worshiping whatever the heck you want, but when you have religious leaders asking for fat stacks of cash for jets and cars, it's a SCAM. 

 

Why does an omnipotent and omniscient come to his mortal creatures when he needs money, but when his followers need something they told my a minister/priest to pray and believe. If god is so smart and powerful then why does he always need their money?  These people invest thousands of hours and 10% of their income for a product that they can't get until they die, but when they are dead they cannot sue because they bought into an ancient scam.

Religion is the original pyramid scheme.

Channeling George Carlin?:

I've heard George's tirade about religion but that wasn't what I had in mind. 

The cons you mention consist of less than 1/10 of 1% of pastors, evangelists, and missionaries in this country. Most pastors have to take an outside job to support themselves and their families.  Most Christian churches have fewer than 100 members the way the Church was established

in nearly 40 years I’ve never taken salary or paid pastoral housing. I’ve been self sustaining like the Apostle Paul. Nor does anyone in the missionary organization I’ve been with for the past 26 years.

in nearly 40 years I’ve never taken salary or paid pastoral housing. I’ve been self sustaining like the Apostle Paul. Nor does anyone in the missionary organization I’ve been with for the past 26 years.

Cool. You may have a cookie. 

The cons you mention consist of less than 1/10 of 1% of pastors, evangelists, and missionaries in this country. Most pastors have to take an outside job to support themselves and their families.  Most Christian churches have fewer than 100 members the way the Church was established

All it takes is one bad apple Larry. Besides, according to the right...

ALL liberals are BAD.

ALL Muslims are BAD.

Well, you get the idea. 

And if the Catholic Church had been faithful to the teachings of the church during the age of Roman persecution from just after Jesus’ return to heaven to Constantine’s conversion, there would have been no need for a Protestant Reformation.   

We will decline the mandatory reprogramming come what may.  We will never give up our faith for any reason.  We will be martyrs rather than give it up or give up on the spreading of info about it to every person living anywhere on the face of the earth.  

We will decline the mandatory reprogramming come what may.

I don't think that you understand the definition of mandatory.

We will never give up our faith for any reason.  We will be martyrs rather than give it up or give up on the spreading of info about it to every person living anywhere on the face of the earth.  

If only people like you would be as determined to teach logic and facts instead of handicapping people with a bronze age myth.

And if the Catholic Church had been faithful to the teachings of the church during the age of Roman persecution from just after Jesus’ return to heaven to Constantine’s conversion, there would have been no need for a Protestant Reformation.

What are you referring to? The Protestant reformation was about the abuses of the church such as greed, scandals, political power struggles,and indulgences.

britannica

Such delusions of grandeur. 

We will never give up our faith for any reason.

One of the master strokes of religion was to find a way to get people to hold belief without evidence as something good ... to even aspire to higher levels of belief without evidence simply because another human being said it was true.

Faith then leads to proudly proclaiming that nothing — no contrary evidence or logic — will ever be considered.    It is an unabashed declaration of the refusal to engage in critical thinking regarding religion.

These problems outline are not only affecting Christians but all faiths. No one is persecuting Christians alone. 

No one is persecuting Christians alone.

the "victim card" and persecution complex go hand in hand with some religions, it's the constant "war" mentality of "them vs everyone else" - tries to give them a "higher" meaning and purpose.

No one is persecuting Christians alone. 

True. I think the reason they feel they are more persecuted than most is because by percentage, there are more of them. 

That, or because, being the majority, they've always had the privileges given to the majority.  They've benefitted from things like tacit agreement with a porous wall of separation between church and state (with regards to them only, of course), systemic bigotry against those of other religions, or no religion, and pandering to them by businesses to the point that a plain red Starbucks cup isn't Christmas-y enough.

to the point that a plain red Starbucks cup isn't Christmas-y enough.

Excellent post and you are 100% spot on.

hat, or because, being the majority, they've always had the privileges given to the majority. 

" When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression"

quoteinvestigator

"When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression"

I've been looking for that quote for weeks. It describes much more than just Christians in the US.

God belief IS a problem...

Actually it’s a lack of belief that is our problem.  

Actually it’s a lack of belief that is our problem.  

When you actually prove there's a god, them maybe there will be more belief.

No.  Everyone’s eternal fate is tied up in faith and belief in the best light shown to them whatever it might have been.  People will believe or not. Their choice by their free will.  No one demanding proof as a condition of belief will believe even when they see it.  

No, that is just your belief and nothing more. You have nothing to verify it nor does anyone have any reason to believe it, much less give it any serious consideration, unless they're gullible enough to simply accept any outlandish claim without proof.

[deleted] 

Christianity has been called a religion, but is in actuality about restoring mankind’s personal relationship with God as it was with Adam and Eve where YHWH (Jesus) walked and talked with them in the Garden.

Well, if it's not a religion, we can ban it. 

It is what we are supposed to be about.  What live free or die said is exactly the point of our reason to exist.  He described why we are here perfectly.  

removed for context

removed for context

It's a religion, no matter how poetic you try to make it sound. I see you couldn't help it with your usual proselytizing nonsense, eh? 

Logically you cannot mention having a personal relationship with god without it being a discussion of religion.  Religious people have always believed that they can redefine reality as they choose.

Religious people have always believed that they can redefine reality as they choose.

They believe something imaginary to be real. So I suspect reality might be somewhat "fluid" (for lack of a better term) to certain theistic minded individuals.

[deleted, already ruled on by the RA]

  It was simply an explanation of what Christianity is.  Nothing more. 

[deleted Phrases meant to denigrate] are [not allowed (e.g. ‘your ilk’).]

It was clearly and obvious to any objective observer that what he said was in no way shape or form proselytizing.  It was simply an explanation of what Christianity is.

Christianity is a religion, despite LiveFree's attempt to spin at as otherwise.

 Nothing more.  It is you and your ilk that are constantly here proselytizing for atheism and secular humanism.  

How do you proselytize for something that is not a religion? Is explaining logic and science an example of pedestalizing? 

[deleted Phrases meant to denigrate]

Was that a "Christian" thing to say?

It was clearly and obvious to any objective observer that what he said was in no way shape or form proselytizing. It was simply an explanation of what Christianity is.

When one utilizes biblical passages in an attempt to win an argument or make some kind of point, then it's proselytizing.

There is no "Edisto Beach" in California.

There is no "Edisto Beach" in California.

I saw that after I posted... LOL Good catch Pat..

There is no "Edisto Beach" in California.

Weird. It should say "South Carolina." The ADF website says Edisto Beach, South Carolina.

And a wonderful site that is.  

Small congregations and small businesses are being swallowed by the 'big box' concept. 

Religious persecution always originates from the pulpit and pews.

If religion has problems it is rooted in the 'new belief system' that the religious are more interested in convenience than the message the doctrines demand. 

There is persecution of Christians all over the world.  Ambassador Brownback and Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council have been appointed by our President to confront and address this issue globally.  

There is persecution of Christians all over the world.  Ambassador Brownback and Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council have been appointed by our President to confront and address this issue globally.  

Please list 10 examples of the supposed Christian persecution.

The comments of some on this site I only have one.

What would that example be?

A lot more than 10 here.  https://www.persecution.com

Ambassador Brownback and Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council have been appointed by our President to confront and address this issue globally.  

That is a total waste of time & they know it. 

On that I have no doubt.  

Tell it to congress and President Clinton who passed and signed the law creating the at large ambassador for religious liberty 🗽 around the world.  There are not enough good things though to say about Tony Perkins and The Family Research Council. They are helping out in the fight against those who would deny religious liberty for all all around the world, and not just those who would deny that there are persecuted Christians in the USA.  

[Deleted]

They are great Americans.  Death wishing fellow Americans at the hands of Islamic fascists is beneath contempt.  

Like the 'gorilla in heels' and 'crack whores' comments by the right wing about Michelle Obama and their daughters?

Get real.  Brownback and Perkins are Inquisitionists.  And also walk in The Shadow of The Deceiver.  ISIS is their brethren.

A lot more than 10 here. persecution

I went to that site. I'm not seeing a lot of religious persacution. 

They are helping out in the fight against those who would deny religious liberty for all all around the world, and not just those who would deny that there are persecuted Christians in the USA.  

They have absolutely no business involving themselves in the affairs of any another country, particularly favoring one religion over another.

Everything they do is an affront to the Constitution and a waste of taxpayer dollars.

Slick Willy didn't create it of his own accord. It was the word of conservatives in Congress.

en.wikipedia

Who are these persecuted Christians in the US? Denying Christians the ability to enforce religious beliefs as superior to secular law isn't an act of religious persecution.

They advocate for the religious liberty of all minority religious groups in every country on earth that has intolerance or state atheism or a dominant religion that doesn’t respect others, or their government doesn’t.  It’s not just for Christians though globally we are by far the most persecuted religion.  

They advocate for the religious liberty of all minority religious groups in every country on earth that has intolerance or state atheism or a dominant religion that doesn’t respect others, or their government doesn’t.   

Christianity is obviously the dominant religion in the US so when have they advocated for other religious views?

It’s not just for Christians though globally we are by far the most persecuted religion.  

Members of tribal religions disagree with that outrageous claim.

It’s not just for Christians though globally we are by far the most persecuted religion.

Do the Jews know about this?

Gordy,

Well, let's look at the stats:

theguardian

The 105-page report examines the prevalence of antisemitism in  Europe , the post-Soviet region, the US, Canada, Australia, South America and South Africa. It records 327 major incidents of violence, vandalism and desecration in 2017, compared with a peak of 1,118 in 2009 and a low of 78 in 1989, the year the study began. It found 30% of attacks were directed at individuals, 20% at cemeteries and memorial sites, and 17% at synagogues.

theguardian

And yet, according to some, it's christians who are the most "persecuted." It seems some do not know yhe meaning of the word "persecution." Either that, or they apply it as loosely as possible. Either way, claiming christians are persecuted is disingenuous. 

they apply it as loosely as possible.

When said "persecution" is directed at themselves, of course.

Wishing them a happy holiday instead of merry Christmas is religious persecution.  But I bet that many would object to being accused of anti-semitism for not wishing Jewish people happy Hannukah.

Slick Willy didn't create it of his own accord. It was the word of conservatives in Congress.

Passed 98-0.  This did not have any Democratic opposition.  

After reading some of the tenets about this legislation, I am puzzled why the US is selling arms to Saudi Arabia instead of sanctioning them. 

There is zero religious freedom in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia is the #1 humans rights violator on the planet.  

What was the real purpose in the US passing this legislation?  Was it to selectively use it to topple governments or bring them under the control of select world capitalists?

Family Research Council is a Hate Organization run by billionaires

theatlantic

Ultimately this might be a result of a slow decline in church attendance which might be due to a slow decline in those who actually believe what the church / religion is selling.

Per Pew research :

If the public interest in churches (and religions) declines so will benefits such as tax exemptions.

The reality is most people don't give two f#*ks about bogus claims of christian persecution. There is NO christian persecution and there is NO war on Christmas.

Merry and Happy !!!

....The left’s war on Christmas began with changing the language surrounding the holiday. The phrase “Merry Christmas” was replaced with “happy holidays”, and any references to Christmas celebrating the birth of Christ became politically incorrect. Instead, the holiday was limited to its more religion-free tropes, such as Santa Claus, Christmas trees, and gift-giving.

However, it didn’t take long for even these aspects of the holiday to become unacceptable for many on the left as well. Even when you take away all of the religious meaning and phrases, Christmas is still, at its heart, a holiday that celebrates tradition, the importance of family, and Christian values. These, of course, are all things that the modern left would rather not celebrate.

As with every other matter, though, it isn’t enough for those on the far left to simply forgo the holiday themselves and letter others celebrate how they please. Instead, the dislike for what Christmas stands for has turned into a full-on crusade against the holiday.....https://www.americanlibertyreport.com/articles/the-lefts-war-on-christmas-continues-with-candy-cane-ban/

Are my Humanist beliefs being persecuted if somebody wishes me Merry Christmas? 

Why do you believe that your religious beliefs supersede their free speech rights? 

More bs about the FAUX war on Christmas....Happy Holiday written in 1941

The phrase “Merry Christmas” was replaced with “happy holidays”,

You do realize that when you keep posting these ridiculous Christian whine-fests you just end up making people dislike your religion even more, likely even making some believers question their faith asking themselves "Am I really taking these peoples side? How the hell did that happen?"...

It takes some kind of persecution complex for one to be offended when one is wished a happy holy day.

Happy holiday as in singular.  

You're persecuted if someone doesn't wish you the right holiday?

Are Jews persecuted when they're wished a Merry Christmas?

Or does that rule only work one way?

The war on Christmas goes much deeper than replacing MERRY CHRISTMAS with a faux greeting.  

It takes some kind of persecution complex for one to be offended when one is wished a happy holy day.

"How dare you wish me just any happy holy day! You must wish me the proper happy holy day, in fact it must be a merry holy day of a specific denomination or it's an absolute insult! May you rot in the depths of the deepest hell for your obvious intended offense! Merry Christmas and good day to you sir!"...

Ever notice how now, when some Christians say Merry Christmas to you, they're almost waiting for the generic response to reinforce their victim narrative and give you that contemptuous look if you respond with Happy Holidays? It's happened a few times to me so far, most often my extremist Christian relatives in Ohio.

I have a distant cousin who keeps posting on Facebook about how offensive "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" are.  And the stupid memes she keeps sharing just reek of faux persecution because her religious privilege is being denied.  I'm tempted to wish her a happy holiday in the comments on her post, but she's old and in poor health, so I haven't.

My parents have both unfriended her.

The war on Christmas goes much deeper than replacing MERRY CHRISTMAS with a faux greeting.  

If Christmas was completely kept private, where everyone held their own religious ceremonies or had their own private feasts to celebrate their saviors birth, without any commercials, without any huge public displays, without all the gaudy lights, red and green, jolly fat man, yule log, evergreen tree, all the trappings of Christmas, could a Christian still find just as much meaning in remembering the supposed birth of their savior? Is it some un-written law that says you can't reflect on the sacrifice Christ made for your sins without listening to nearly three months of Christmas music in every mall and store, on every TV channel and radio station? Would your faith be lessened if you didn't try to force other children in a public school to make religious themed art projects or act out religious figures in some school play?

What goes deep is the strangle hold Christianity has on American society, and any loosening of that grip is seen as an attack on the foundations of some Christians faith, no doubt those with weak faith who must have their religion validated by those around them or they fall into confusion and begin to question their faith. Those would be the only ones complaining that there is some "war" on their faith, those who take offense at a simple holiday greeting not being of the brand they prefer, getting angry that you didn't validate their expression of faith to you when they wished you Merry Christmas. Weak, petty, jealous little whining faux Christians.

"Happy Holiday" (sometimes performed as "Happy Holidays") is a popular song written by Irving Berlin in 1941. The song was first performed by Bing Crosby for the 1942 film Holiday Inn. While it is often regarded as a Christmas song, in the movie it is performed on New Year's Eve, and expresses a wish for the listener to enjoy "happy holidays" throughout the entire year. The titular phrase is now most commonly associated with inclusive holiday greetings for the period around Christmas and the New Year.

You are incorrect.  There is no war on Christmas, no one is being stopped from celebrating Christmas.

There were Happy Holiday and Seasons Greetings Cards in the 1950s

google

There are multiple "holidays" (pleural) celebrated around the same time. So "happy holidays" is appropriate. 

I have a distant cousin who keeps posting on Facebook about how offensive "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" are.  And the stupid memes she keeps sharing just reek of faux persecution because her religious privilege is being denied.  I'm tempted to wish her a happy holiday in the comments on her post, but she's old and in poor health, so I haven't. My parents have both unfriended her.

I have a hyper-religious uncle like that.  I don't unfriend him because its too much fun watching his own daughter and a few of my cousins publically call him out as a hypocrite. He never learns. 

He has a nativity scene in his front yard and stray cats sleep in the cradle. He hates cats.

That’s really sad. 

Yes, it is sad that her religious bigotry is driving her family away, and that she has such hate in her heart.

There is no war on Christmas

rationalwiki

Am I allowed to giggle at that comment

The good news if they're complaining, then America's light bulb has obviously turned on. Their gig is up and ending. Diminishing the cult mindset is a liberation we need to celebrate.  I cant think of a better time than the during the winter solstice  

I also can't think of another group that whines more that others don't believe their fairytales.

When I say Season's Greetings or Happy Holidays to anyone, Christian or otherwise is out of respect, not disdain. To take it any other way is not of being of a good mind or heart.  

You obviously have a nefarious agenda Heartland American.  Are you really that dogmatic you can't see you're shooting yourself in the foot and are being sadly misled? You're the turnoff. You're the reason Christinity is failing.  To believe its some imaginary war between imaginary foes God/Satan just goes to the heart of this sham.

  I actually feel sorry for you.  I took my religious facade blinders off in my early 20's.  How can we not wish better for you?  

I rebelled and stopped attending in my late 20’s as well.   The difference is that I never quite quit believing the light I’d been shown and I came back.  

For me, it wasn't rebellion, it was the light bulb finally did turn on. No empirical evidence. What there is, is evidence it's always been a ruse.   No matter how much you may wish it different because you fear flying on your own. All religions are an ancient ancestoral myth because they had no way of figuring the scary things nature generates, and found it could be used as a weapon to scare people into submission.  You've been sold out by the mere indoctrination of blind faith and the emotion of fear.. 

 It makes no difference to me what you believe until you use it as a weapon.  And you are with this kind of bullshit.  We aren't after your religion.  We are after your attempts to theocratize. Any ills you think you're feeling, you need to check yourself.    For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Quit theocratizing and we won't have to hold you accountable. You are your own war, militarizing your churches as political weapons and then expecting no one will notice.    This is why you're losing your base.  The sham is exposed and the gig is up. 

WE'VE FOUND THE HORRIBLE PERSON THAT STARTED THE ''WAR ON CHRISTMAS''....

I always knew he was a commie!

oh Wow, yes Bing was just horrible!!  Probably a Jew, but really a Muslim at heart.  Total agenda to start a war on Christmas!  

One can say happy holiday instead of 🥳 happy 😊 New Years  🎇 🎈 🎊  🎉 🍸 if they want.  It doesn’t bother me in the least. 

Gee, that's nice.

I'm gonna say what ever the hell I want to and you can't stop me

I would like to thank Alliance Defending Freedom for being the great religious liberty 🗽 organization that it is and for defending believers on all sorts of issues affecting us across the board in America on all the issues addressed in the seeded article.  Many here have limited their responses to one issue but their work on our behalf on all the issues is exemplary.   God bless Alliance Defending Freedom!  🇺🇸 

I would like to thank Alliance Defending Freedom for being the great religious liberty

So can I assume that they are a pro-choice organization?

Well thanks for bringing us another name for a political action committee guised in religion.  We'll surely keep an eye on them from here on out.  I'm sure they're defending Muslins, Jews, Buddhists too, right? 

google christian reconstructionism or more specifically project blitz if you want to learn what twisted direction this thumper political bullshit is headed. fortunately history has a tendency to repeat itself where these dominionists are concerned and every couple hundred years their hierarchy gets exterminated when they stray too far off church property. kind of messy and time consuming with all those swords last time, but next time looks to be a lot more efficient with lots of guns and worship times posted on the thumper madrasa marquees.

but next time looks to be a lot more efficient with lots of guns

The Dominionists are currently infiltrating the Air Force Academy. Get the big guns first (fighter jets and nukes) and the rest just fall like dominoes

I had a neighbor who always said "Happy Christmas and Merry New Year"

We had one of them too.  They lived two houses down from us and were immigrants from Austria.  The time period was in the late 1950s.

I've actually done that myself...not intentionally, tho

Locking due to the seeder's absence.