Militant Secularism, Atheism and Rising Legal Discrimination Against Christians
As we are in Holy Week and respecting Good Friday and it’s meaning for the world and soon the triumphant celebration of Easter and its deep and awesome impact we note that we and what we believe are not tolerated or considered a part of diversity of beliefs by some in government in academics, and the mainstream media. They mock our beliefs with reason and logic and demand believers hide it under a bushel or be censored if we don’t.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Militant secularism is on the march throughout the Western world.
It began with court cases concerning what were clearly government entities in nature. The first court cases focused on things that were problematic.
It didn’t take long for these court cases to move past the clearly problematic to a frontal assault on any mention of faith in any guise in even the most quasi of public situations anywhere in the country. In a few years, it broadened to include attacks on Christian public officials, which I have experienced myself. Verbal hazing and hectoring became such a commonplace that many public Christians began to self-censor their remarks to avoid it.
The reason for this is that public life is difficult and insecure enough without adding extra problems to it. Public officials and other public figures get worn out from the constant harassment and misery of being attacked 24/7. Also, the use of slander and mockery, can, over time, destroy their reputations and make it impossible for them to do their jobs.
So, they backed down. They self-censored Jesus out of their vocabularies. It was easier to keep quiet about their faith than to take it on the chin, especially since most of the American Christian world was cocooned in a rock-a-bye world of their own and largely indifferent to what was happening.
However, public figures are not the only targets these days. More and more, the courts have become a means of harassment and oppression of Christians who are private citizens simply trying to live their faith in their private world. Thus we have bans on student-initiated prayers in school, censorship of religious viewpoints from valedictory speeches and, lately, the banning of Christian groups from college campuses.
It was and is the Martin Niemoller poem , coming to life again.
I wrote a post yesterday, Atheist Governments: Failed Experiments in Godless Goodness which referred to this situation. This post is an extension of that.
One of the more interesting examples of forced removal of Christian art from public grounds is the Soledad Cross. This cross was designed by architect Donald Campbell and is part of a memorial for war veterans.
Americans were outraged when Al Queda blasted ancient Buddhas in Afghanistan because they offended their religious sensibilities. But they do not see the parallel in the forced removal of religious art from public places in our own country at the behest of a well-organized movement of militant secularists.
You can find a list, of the cases the Freedom From Religion group in Wisconsin is involved in now on their website . I would guess that this list is relatively small compared to the numbers of threatening letters concerning Christian art, speech and actives that it churns out on what appears to be a continuous basis. The Supreme Court has ruled that historic monuments may be preserved, but there are no guidelines as to what constitutes a historic monument.
The deluge of court cases that are brought by a couple of groups and dumped on public entities, coupled with the threat of costly litigation, usually results in people backing down without a fight. This is using the courts as a club to bully and intimidate ordinary citizens into giving up their rights.
The ACLU has joined with the Freedom From Religion Foundation in some of these lawsuits. They have also filed suits of their own. They claim, like the Freedom From Religion Foundation, that they are “defending” the Constitution and the American people from the dangers of statues in parks, plaques, and commentary in graduation speeches.
Both these groups often file lawsuits that are aimed, not so much at government policy, but the individual expressions of faith by government employees. They have worked assiduously to drive religion in general and Christianity in particular from the public square. In case after case they have filed suit against city parks , state governments , and courthouses all over the country. They have forced them to remove statues , and ban celebrations that smacked in any way of a Christian viewpoint.
You would think the mere sight of the Ten Commandments on a plaque was a threat to our liberty equal to say, banning prayer in schools, even when they are student-led, censoring personal religious comments out of student speeches or requiring college faith-based student groups to put atheists in charge.
Of course, that is exactly what has been happening in more and more places around the country. Here a few examples that I found of censoring student speech and attempting to force student religious organizations to admit unbelievers as members and leaders of their groups. I found these with a simple google search that took about 10 seconds.
Censorship of Christian’s Free Speech in Schools Christian’s Valedictorian Speech Censored by Principal District Pulls Plug on Speech Attorneys Win Settlement in Cases Involving Censorship of Religious References from Valedictory Speeches Student Says Testimony About God Censored From Speech
There are a number of cases of Christian student groups being kicked off college campuses because they refuse to put non-believers in positions of leadership in their organizations, or because they require that members be people of faith. There are many of these incidents. Some of them involve numerous press releases with denials and counter charges that go back and forth. However, I doubt that there would be any back and forth if the initial discrimnatory actions by the universities in question had not been taken.
Discrimination on College Campuses University of Michigan Kicks Christian Club Off Campus Campus Crackdown: Restricting Religious Freedom Vanderbilt Christian Groups, Citing Religious Freedom, Follow Catholics Off Campus Rollins College Boots Student Religious Group Off Campus College Forces Christian Group Off Campus Christian Groups Face Hostility on Campus Universities Across Nation Kick Christian Groups Off Campus Christian Group Kicked Off Campus at Brown University
If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t have one. That’s one of the nifty little sayings pro-abortion advocates are fond of tossing around. However, in real life, they are using political clout with the president to create an abortion hegemony in which organizations, including the Church are forced to refer for abortions or be severely penalized.
The same kind of thing is at work with gay marriage. If you don’t believe in gay marriage, don’t get gay married , the slogan goes. But Christian groups on college campuses are being penalized for following their faith concerning what is rapidly becoming a gay hegemony. At the same time, Catholic adoption agencies in many states have been forced to close because they will not place children with anyone except a married man and woman.
This is militant secularism run amuck. It not only violates the religious freedom of American citizens, it deprives orphan children of loving homes and trafficked women of the help they need to get out of that life and move forward. Here are a few examples I found, again, with a quick google search.
Direct Discrimination Against Churches and Church Ministries Illinois Catholic Charities Closes Adoption Over Rule Same-Sex Law Forces Catholic Charities to Close Adoption Program Bishops Say Rules on Gay Parents Limit Religious Freedom Discrimination Against Catholic Adoption Services Oregon Catholic Charities Loses Grant Because It Will Not Refer for Abortion Kentucky Catholic Charities Shutters Aid to Traffickers Over Refusal to Refer for Abortion
I could go on with this, but I think I’ve made my point. The increasing harassment and move toward overt legal discrimination of Christians is so widespread and has been in the news so often that I honestly believe it is public knowledge. Anyone can find all the cites they want about it in a matter of a few seconds. I’m sure that what I’ve given here are not the best examples. I didn’t aim for that. I literally just took the ones at the top of the many pages of hits I got when I googled. They are also not meant to be comprehensive.
They are indicative. They indicate what is happening and why the concerns of Christians about the rise in overt anti-Christian activity on an official as well as a social level is well-founded. They also indicate a growing problem with how ideas like “inclusion,” “tolerance” and “equality” are being codified and used to create enforcement that produces exclusion, intolerance and inequality for Christians.
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If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t have one. That’s one of the nifty little sayings pro-abortion advocates are fond of tossing around. However, in real life, they are using political clout with the president to create an abortion hegemony in which organizations, including the Church are forced to refer for abortions or be severely penalized.
The same kind of thing is at work with gay marriage. If you don’t believe in gay marriage, don’t get gay married , the slogan goes. But Christian groups on college campuses are being penalized for following their faith concerning what is rapidly becoming a gay hegemony. At the same time, Catholic adoption agencies in many states have been forced to close because they will not place children with anyone except a married man and woman.
This is militant secularism run amuck. It not only violates the religious freedom of American citizens, it deprives orphan children of loving homes and trafficked women of the help they need to get out of that life and move forward. Here are a few examples I found, again, with a quick google search.
Direct Discrimination Against Churches and Church Ministries Illinois Catholic Charities Closes Adoption Over Rule Same-Sex Law Forces Catholic Charities to Close Adoption Program Bishops Say Rules on Gay Parents Limit Religious Freedom Discrimination Against Catholic Adoption Services Oregon Catholic Charities Loses Grant Because It Will Not Refer for Abortion Kentucky Catholic Charities Shutters Aid to Traffickers Over Refusal to Refer for Abortion
I could go on with this, but I think I’ve made my point. The increasing harassment and move toward overt legal discrimination of Christians is so widespread and has been in the news so often that I honestly believe it is public knowledge. Anyone can find all the cites they want about it in a matter of a few seconds. I’m sure that what I’ve given here are not the best examples. I didn’t aim for that. I literally just took the ones at the top of the many pages of hits I got when I googled. They are also not meant to be comprehensive.
They are indicative. They indicate what is happening and why the concerns of Christians about the rise in overt anti-Christian activity on an official as well as a social level is well-founded.
I hope we all contemplate the meaning of today Good Friday and join in celebrating Easter this weekend. May God bless us all and heal our nation.
To me, it's just Friday. I go to work, do my job, come home, and manage my home and affairs, and enjoy any downtime, just like any other day.
Where is the discrimination that you are always whining and pissing and moaning about?
Could it be that the takeover of Christianity by the militants with their anti Jesus doctrines perpetuated by the Money Changers and purveyors of hate, fear and suspicion of Social Order is the expected result. Only one will benefit. Lucifer always smiles when the MAGA CHURCHES are full and the coffers are fuller than the pews.
Take over? Hardly. We are the growing part of Christianity as mainline churches compromise belief to get along with the world and their members melt away to the more literal belief versions of their denomination or melt away into the bones. This seed though isn’t about differences of beliefs among believers but the treatment of believers in general by militant secularists be they academia, media, government, courts, social media, front groups like FFRF, ACLU, SPLC.
No. And you used the term, 'we'.
On the contrary, your movement is dying. Should not push to hard or the persecution which the movement desires to inflict on others will be inflicted on it ten fold, especially when the hand of Jesus arrives to smite those who dwell in The Shadow of The Deceiver.
The "takeover" started as soon as the religion started. And don't forget that the religion was (is) spread by the sword and by the use of terrorism just like Islam was (is) spread.
As far as the rest of this article, the victim card is void. The "discrimination" that it complains about fails mention that the religion also practices (and has for centuries). Not only have they suppressed the free speech of other religions it has killed millions in order to force others to submit.
Another faux christian persecution article.
Yawn
They're a dime-a-dozen, aren't they. I wonder if anyone even notices or cares?
When we can’t even post an article about Good Friday on Good Friday it seemed a perfect topic.
There are several religious groups on NT. Post there to your heart's content.
If 'militant secularist atheists' were on the march in 2013 [when the article was written], why isn't it legal to discriminate against Christians yet?
Who said you can't post such an article? You can post anything you want as long as it falls within the CoC guidelines. after all, you're able to post your religious BS articles all the time. So what's the problem?
There’s a religion section on the front page too. The article came from a secular conservative news and opinion site that carried the Good Friday article because it is Good Friday.
You just proved my point. Anyone can post almost anything. No one said you can't. So again, what's the problem?
Yes there is. And if you post on the front page do not expect that you can write anything you wish and not be challenged. Anything on the front page can be challenged. That goes for every type of article including religious articles.
Nobody is saying you cannot publish your seeds on the front page (except for those that are against site rules). We are trying to get you to understand that challenges to claims is part of the process on a public site.
But apparently, in the mindset of some theists, any challenge automatically equates to persecution or attack.
First of all, Patheos is hardly a 'secular' site. Second of all, the article isn't about nor was it written for Good Friday in 2013.
In short, that whole sentence is a lie.
If you used reading comprehension and followed along you would have realized that I was referring to the Good Friday article from Conservative Daily News that was locked not this replacement seed.
[deleted]
See 5.1.4....It is a perfect description from the source publication as to what is happening here.
My bad Xx, did I miss the fact that one of your incessant religious victim hood posts was locked? I'll have to try harder to read your captivating content before it's gone. /s
Nothing faux about it. It is what is and the things it describes are one of the biggest reasons we made Trump our President. He and judges he appointed have begun to peel back the layers of this secular anti belief jihad against believers.
More babbling nonsense ranting.
I'm sure the 'president' has paid for many abortions.
He only pushes this garbage for his rabid base
And apparently, his base eats that garbage too.
There you go again Xx, taking 'credit' for electing Trump. We here at NT KNOW that you didn't vote for Trump. Just stop.
I’m going to make up for that mistake this year, not that it matters living in California. I didn’t vote for Hitlary then either.
Yet you'll keep trying to take 'credit' for Trump being elected until then. Until I call you out on it again and again and again.
[Deleted]
Dont blame me for your mistakes.
I didn’t blame you for my mistake. I credited you for bringing me back to my senses and to support President Trump. Thanks!
"Pro-abortion" is one of the nifty little lies pro-lifers/anti-choicers are fond of tossing around too.
And that's one of the nifty little things which shows just how delusional some of them are.
Marriage and adoption is a matter of law, not religion. So if such bigoted (against gays) religious organizations cannot or will not follow the law, they should be penalized. Just as anyone is who doesn't follow the law.
And that statement is paranoid delusion.
No, it doesn't,
If children lose the opportunity to be placed in a loving home, it's due to the religious groups denying then the opportunity by not allowing gays to adopt. So don't try to pass the blame.
What point would that be exactly?
So is the increasing whining and persecution complex of Christians it seems.
" This is militant secularism run amuck. "
what about militant religionists running amuck?
It is ridiculous is it not? One almost never sees a secularist article promoting atheism or attacking religious people, but we get treated to a steady stream of seeds attacking secularists and promoting nonsense such as 'evolution is pseudoscience'.
Yet it is the seeder of these anti-science, anti-secularism, religious declaration seeds who complains about 'militant' secularism simply because these seeds posted in a public forum are logically and factually challenged.
Fascinating, eh?
Maybe we should? Perhaps a steady stream of such articles, much like how we're inundated with BS religious articles. Kind of like fighting fire with fire, eh?
To me it would be better to focus on other ways of viewing reality. The seeds in question here are typically trying to bash the irreligious. To fight fire with fire one would need to bash religious people or simply offer seeds that whine about persecution. Not really the kind of stuff we would want to offer.
That much is obvious. And not just the seeds, but also some of the accompanying comments.
Good point. We are better than that after all.
Some seem to have lost touch with reality.
Christian persecution in our world today seems to occur at junctures where competing ideas meet.
In the Middle East, the juncture is mostly between Islam and Christianity. In India, it is mostly between Hinduism and Christianity.
Atheists often claim that if we would just do away with faith, these types of bloody conflicts would end. But the juncture of competing ideas between Atheism and Christianity has proven just as bloody and even more oppressive in every government that has been dominated by atheists and atheist philosophy. Also, the people saying this ignore that they are themselves engaging in hazing, hate speech and other forms of attacks against Christians of a type that always leads to violent persecution if it goes unchecked.
Militant secularism in the West has become just as much a competing idea with Christianity as Islam and Hinduism is in the East. Militant secularists in America and Europe are quite aggressive in their verbal attacks against Christianity and Christians. They also have managed to pass laws which interfere with the practice of Christianity and the freedom of Christian churches to function. This move toward discriminatory laws appears to be gaining momentum as each new law is passed.
The specific junctures where Christianity runs into the most aggressive attacks varies from culture to culture. In the West, the movement right now is to strip Christianity and Christians of legal protections concerning their right to practice their faith, while at the same time creating ever-broadening restrictions on any expression of Christian thinking in public life.
We have prayer bans, attempts to either deface or destroy public monuments that mention God and constant threats and demands aimed at public Christians to refrain from mentioning God in conversation, debate or speeches. By far the most draconian expression of this move to destroy Christian influence in Western society is the HHS Mandate. This is an all-out government attack on the rights of religious institutions to follow the teachings of their faith.
This kind of secularism is distinct from the healthy secular society that most people, including me, support. Healthy secularism keeps government out of faith and allows people space to believe and practice their faith in peace and harmony. Militant secularism, is the antithesis to this.
Its practitioners use the tools of unjust discrimination to further their aims, including hate speech, verbal harassment, shunning, social isolation and legal discrimination to further their goal of driving those who don’t share their ideas from the public sphere. They also show up at religious discussions and try to take over the discussion and hijack the debate, thus making it impossible to religious people to interact in a positive manner. This is especially widespread in on-line discussions such as this blog.
All this tawdry behavior is done in the name of a utopian claim that if only religion were driven from the world, evil would go away along with it. One of the many debating tricks these people use is to hold God (who they say does not exist) guilty for human depravity. Thus, if children die of starvation, they ask why a “god” would allow this. If five men rape and torture a young girl, they condemn god for allowing it, not the five men for doing it.
Underlying this logic is an extreme disrespect for human freedom. This disrespect for human freedom manifests in their attempts to use the law, shunning, slander, and verbal hijacking to silence anyone who speaks about faith. They don’t believe that other ideas should be heard, and they use every tool available to them to stop this from happening. The things they try to blame on God are results of human freedom, used to sinful aims.
The question arises, what if they win? What if they succeed in driving faith and people of faith into intellectual and actual ghettos of silence and subservience? ....
That article sums up some of the secularists here perfectly.
You equate bloody religious conflicts with challenging claims of truth on a social forum? Get a grip.
The author is as confused (willfully or not) as you seem to be on this aspect. Yes, skeptics do not believe the Christian God exists. So when we refer to God allowing brutality we are presenting to you (for all the good it does) a logical conundrum. God, per your beliefs, has set all of reality into motion and knows exactly what will happen. Thus everything that happens is ultimately a result of God's decisions. To not recognize this is to not comprehend the definition of the Christian God.
And I think that is much of the problem. In my opinion you have not thought this through. I expect you will simply leap to free will and then continue to ignore the logical explanation as to why that leap contradicts (yet again) the definition of the Christian God.
They also show up at religious discussions and try to take over the discussion and hijack the debate, thus making it impossible to religious people to interact in a positive manner. This is especially widespread in on-line discussions such as this blog.
All this tawdry behavior is done in the name of a utopian claim that if only religion were driven from the world, evil would go away along with it. One of the many debating tricks these people use is to hold God (who they say does not exist) guilty for human depravity. Thus, if children die of starvation, they ask why a “god” would allow this. If five men rape and torture a young girl, they condemn god for allowing it, not the five men for doing it.
Underlying this logic is an extreme disrespect for human freedom. This disrespect for human freedom manifests in their attempts to use the law, shunning, slander, and verbal hijacking to silence anyone who speaks about faith. They don’t believe that other ideas should be heard, and they use every tool available to them to stop this from happening. The things they try to blame on God are results of human freedom, used to sinful aims.
The question arises, what if they win? What if they succeed in driving faith and people of faith into intellectual and actual ghettos of silence and subservience? ....
The author of the quoted above is not the confused one here.
The author of that quote isn't HERE at all.
The article documents all the cases of it quite clearly.
Faux christian outrage over NOTHING, more imagined persecution.
In other words, just business as usual. Lol
Nothing imagined about it. The election of Trump and his judiciary appointments have mitigated against the bigotry of the secularists some.
All imagined, you can pray to whatever god you pray to, you can go to whatever church you attend (right now you can't because of the virus which is a good thing for all involved NOT to get sick)
Name ONE right any christian has lost.....
I'll take that a step father: Name one Christian that was arrested or prosecuted solely due to their religious beliefs.
I can think of several bakers, stenographers, calligraphers, photographers, florists, and caterers who have been persecuted by some state and local government bigots for living beliefs in the free exercise there of.
It’s ridiculous that when a liquor store or marijuana dispensary has exactly the same number of cars in their parking lot as a church does and a church is a bigger structure to allow for social distancing that in some jurisdictions are raiding churches with 10 people present. It’s the get religion bigotry of the secular progressive politicians.
So you mean some Christian people doing business were persecuted because they want to be bigots and discriminate?
Say it ain't so.
More like they violated the law. Not because of their personal beliefs or religion. And religion does not give one free reign to violate the law. Even the SCOTUS acknowledged that.
No, all you have is a persecution complex.
It's not the number of cars. It's the number of people gathered. And many businesses are closed in order to maintain social distancing or otherwise prevent the spread of disease. Why should churches be exempt from that?
Nope, it's called social distancing...a patron in said store might be in and out in under 10 minutes...the same can't be said for attending church, depending on said church how long mass will be.
NO religious bigotry...you're chasing shadows.
Actually it is nothing but anti Christian bigotry by a mayor who is a Biden supporter. Nobody but the pastor was in the church. The worshippers were in their cars adequately distant from the next one with the windows up. No possibility of transferring Wuhan virus from one car or family to another. It was a drive in church. Stopping drive in services that comply with CDC recommendations is a violation. The officers actually told the African American pastor that 1st amendment freedoms were suspended. Fortunately a religious liberty oriented rights group is challenging this hate filled bigotry against us.
Police in Greenville, Mississippi raided the parking lot of Temple Baptist Church during a drive-in prayer service and issued $500 fines to everyone in attendance – including many elderly congregants. Pastor Arthur Scott told the Todd Starnes Radio Show that he was astonished by the actions of the police department and the mayor’s office. I warned Americans this could happen in my new book, “Culture Jihad: How to Stop the Left From Killing a Nation.”
“One of the police officers said the mayor wanted to make an example of our church,” the pastor said. “I told them to get some more tickets ready because we will be preaching Sunday morning and Sunday night.” We’ve been doing it for three weeks,” he said.
But Mayor Errick Simmons and the city council that banned churches from hosting drive-in services.
The City of Greenville put in place an Executive Order that orders all church buildings closed for in person and drive in church services, until the State of Mississippi’s Shelter In Place Executive Order No. 1466 is lifted by Governor Tate Reeves. Churches are strongly encouraged to hold services via Facebook Live, Zoom, Free Conference Call, and any and all other social media, streaming, and telephonic platforms,” the order read.
Scott, who has pastored the small church for 45 years, said that most of the congregation is elderly and they don’t have access to smartphones. So church leaders decided to rig up a radio frequency where congregants could sit in their cars and listen as the pastor delivered the message from the pulpit. In other words, the church was in compliance with social distancing rules.
“The police officer said I might go to jail,” the elderly pastor said on the radio show. “If it means going to jail and if it takes that for me to keep preaching, I’ll be glad to go to jail.”
The pastor said as many as 25 cars were in the parking lot for the service and everyone was ticketed.
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Video shows police officers disrupting the service by knocking on the doors of every car. Church members were ordered to turn over their driver’s licenses. They were then issued a fine and a court summons.
“I just can’t believe it,” the pastor told me. “I tried to talk to the mayor. I’ve been here 45 years and I’ve never been to the city council. I’ve never complained. I’ve never stirred up a stink. But I told him I’m going to fight them on this.”
What’s really disturbing is that this happened in Mississippi, not New York City or San Francisco. This happened in the buckle of the Bible Belt.
The mayor and the city council should be removed from office. Any police officer who stepped foot on church property should be fired. And the governor of the state of Mississippi should personally pardon any church member convicted of violating the emergency order.
The U.S. Constitution is under assault, not from a deadly virus, but by leftist lawmakers who want to silence people of faith and shut down their church houses.
Our Founding Fathers fought a war over that kind of aggression.
A Mississippi church is suing the city of Greenville after police shut down its drive-in service this week in accordance with a city ban on the practice amid the COVID-19 pandemic.
Attorneys with the Alliance Defending Freedom filed the lawsuit Friday on behalf of the Temple Baptist Church. The filing challenges Greenville Mayor Errick Simmons' April 7 executive orderthat prohibits drive-in church services until a statewide shelter-in-place order is lifted.
The suit comes after eight uniformed Greenville police officers reportedly issued $500 tickets to congregants who refused to leave a parking lot where a drive-in service was being conducted Wednesday, the ADF said in a statement announcing the legal challenge.
ANNE GRAHAM LOTZ: CORONAVIRUS -- A GOOD FRIDAY MESSAGE AMID THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC
Continue Reading Below The group contends that church congregants stayed in their cars with their windows rolled up while listening to Pastor Arthur Scott preach from inside the empty Go Church building.
“Government is clearly overstepping its authority when it singles out churches for punishment, especially in a ridiculous fashion like this,” said ADF senior counsel Ryan Tucker, director of the ADF Center for Christian Ministries. “In Greenville, you can be in your car at a drive-in restaurant, but you can’t be in your car at a drive-in church service. That’s not only nonsensical, it’s unconstitutional, too.”
The Greenville Police Department and Simmons' office did not immediately return calls from Fox News for comment Friday.
The church has been conducting the services for the past three weeks in accordance with social distancing rules, the ADF said. Simmons' ban orders church buildings closed for in-person and drive-in services.
Mississippi Gov. Tate Reeves, a Republican, makes no such mention in his shelter-in-place order. Simmons met with local religious leaders Thursday to discuss the ban and most agreed with his executive order, the city posted on its Facebook account.
The Temple Baptist Church in Greenville, Miss., filed a legal challenge to Greenville Mayor Errick Simmons’ order banning drive-in church services amid the coronavirus pandemic. (Google Maps)
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Religious services have become somewhat of a contentious issue as governments prohibit large gatherings in an effort to slow the spread of the virus.
Kansas Gov. Laura Kelly, a Democrat, is suing top state Republican lawmakers after they voted to overturn her executive order banning large gatherings in churches.
No it is NOT.
There are MANY churches here in WNY...NOT one is breaking the quarantine rules.
Why is it okay for some supposed good christians break the RULES, or is it they will only follow their own rules.
The quarantine rules are NOT bigotry when you only have a handful of ignorant science deniers are too stupid and burying their heads in the sand.
Our Founding Fathers were NOT dealing with a deadly virus.
If people are stupid enough to gather in large groups, and they get sick, they SHOULD NOT receive care.
Unfortunately some people are too stupid to follow the rules.
You stay safe too. The only place I have to go this weekend is to CVS to pick up a prescription
We haven't heard of the spread of this disease at liquor stores or marijuana dispensaries. But we do hear about the spread at CHURCHES.
The church people were all following all the CDC social distancing rules and they all would have been legal in the parking lot of the grocery store or fast food drive through or liquor store parking lot as they were there. This is pure anti religious bigotry on the part of the city mayor that way exceeds the governors order. This the Americans defending freedom lawsuit.
Not in their parking lots all in cars with distance between them and their windows all up. They met all he federal and state guide lines for safety and social distancing.
No, it is not "religious" bigotry, it's a fucking pandemic, rules are to be followed NOT flaunted.
If that were really the case then explain why there were jumps in cases in Pennsylvania, Louisiana, North Carolina all linked to the mindless sheep going to church?
These idiots are practicing social distancing. They are part of the problem with the spread of this disease.
The difference is that there is no greater risk being in a drive in church than there is in a drive through any other place. There will be drive in Church meetings like this all over the country over the weekend. This concept is easy as fancy Christmas decorations in a neighborhood often have very short range FM broadcasters that play music to go with the light displays. There is no danger from people in their cars looking at and listening to the displays. There is no danger from sitting in my car in a parking lot listening to my radio.
You're stuck on the drive thru. It's not the drive thru that is the problem. I thought I explained that.
Greenville, Mississippi's city executive orders don't cover your state.
Lip service, the man is NOT religious and the faux christians fall for his bs hook, line and sinker
And what puts you in a position to determine who is a real christian and a "faux" christian?
That’s a good question.
Their own words and actions. Unless christianity isn't concerned with actually living and speaking their tenets. If a religion is based on certain beliefs and principles and they aren't followed it would seem to be a front, fake, not a real value system - just a show. Feel free to list all of Trump's christian characteristics that highlight his reverence. And examples of his behavior.
And how does that answer my question?
So Satan is actually a good guy who just fell short then right? Quit being such a dick to him.
I've often asked what Satan did that was so bad. Never got any logical answer either. If I remember biblical lore, Satan gave mankind knowledge. How is knowledge a bad thing?
It really is interesting when you dig down into it. My basic understanding is that Lucifer became jealous that god doted so heavily upon his newly created race of slaves that Lucifer and many of the angels became jealous. Then I guess to piss God off or something Lucifer pulled a Prometheus (the bible story is a total rip off of the Greek story by the way) and gave humans knowledge.
Apparently releasing slaves is a big "no no" to Yahweh, and so Lucifer was then cast down into a newly created hell where instead of being punished, he was made the warden or something? I mean when Ted Bundy was sent to prison they didn't send him there as the new warden, so what the fuck is going on here? Either way it seems that Lucifer's biggest crime was releasing slaves in a jealous rage, and apparently we former slaves are all supposed to hate him for it.
What about Lucifer? Shouldn't we throw him a bone too? I mean, he wasn't perfect. He loved God and served him as loyally as anyone, until he didn't live up to God's lofty ideals.
Yeah, we, including you. I mean if Trump is just a misguided fuckup then what about Lucifer? Shouldn't you show him the same sort of compassion? And what about everyone else in the world?
I know, right? After all, Satan certainly got the raw deal here. Showing compassion to the supposedly most evil individual is some Jesus level compassion right there, right? That would speak volumes about one's character right there.
So basically, Satan wanted some attention from his BFF, but was getting snubbed.
Many biblical stories are rip offs from other mythologies. Including the Jesus story.
Also note that god never condemns slavery or deems it immoral. Instead, he gives rules as to how to properly be a slave master. Slavery doesn't even make god's top 10 list of what not to do.
Yep. And then god blames his supposedly "favorite" creations for his own mistake of sending Satan to live with us and gets pissed when we screw up.
Well, the ones who take such myths seriously or give god a free pass for anything and everything certainly do.
Lol okay "Christian".
Basically we are the children in a nasty (ongoing) divorce and our shitty parents are taking all their emotions and problems out on us rather than just sitting down and talking about it amongst themselves.
Are you suggesting that we are more Christlike than Christians and possibly Jesus? I think you are right.
Yep, daddy ignored him so he started stripping.
Osiris did it first.
Oh god seems to be totally about slavery, not once in the bible does god ever condemn it. Like I said, Lucifer releasing a slave race seemed to be the final straw. Can't have those newly freed slaves (humans) running around and thinking for themselves!
And that is what is so retarded, in the words of Christopher Hitches "we are created sick, and then commanded to be well." What the fuck? Christianity is fucked up from start to finish, it makes absolutely no sense at any point.
That about sums it up. For a god that is supposedly all-knowing, wise, and forgiving (depending on which religious version one subscribes to), god sure screwed up his "creation," couldn't settle a dispute, and holds a grudge. Uh, what makes this god worthy of worship again?
Perhaps more rational and objective maybe?
Kind of like the theological version of "oh yeah? I'll show you!"
Oh don't you know that's a "fake" god or religion? Lol
Indeed. As I recall, that was even the discussion of a topic about the morality of slavery. If I recall correctly, some theists never called god out on his lack of condemnation of slavery and even made excuses for it.
God certainly did seem to want us dumb. After all, ignorance makes control over puppets easier.
I'm reminded of something Gene Roddenberry said: "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."
The same can be said for most religions. But then, if something made sense, it probably wouldn't be a religion.
The same can be said for most religions. But then, if something made sense, it probably wouldn't be a religion
Hence, atheism.
As an after thought... Osiris is a way cooler name than Jesus.
Exactly. Even though some theists laughably and ignorantly label atheism a "religion."
It does have a certain flair to it.
I’m just stunned by the sympathy for Satan shown here. God created us in His image and gave us free will. We were not in any way slaves to God. Satan was the most powerful being God created. He was not jealous of man, He was jealous of Jesus and wanted to be his equal. Satan rebelled against God in Heaven not here and was with his 1/3 of angel followers cast out of Heaven. Satan targeted us, and when Adam and Eve listened to Satan questioning Gods fairness and disobeyed God, they and we all became slaves to sin. That we celebrate today was our liberation from sin and the assurance of eternal life because He is risen! I just can’t get over the sympathy for Satan from atheists who deny God exists...
One would think sympathy and compassion is a more attune with Jesus' teachings.
That's nice. Prove it!
Thanks to Satan.
Satan predates the time of Jesus.
Yeah, supposedly cast down to Earth with the rest of us. Great plan there god! >sarc<
All Satan did was give A&E knowledge. How is knowledge a bad thing? It's god that threw a tantrum and held a grudge. Doesn't seem very "holy" for a deity to me.
I'll stick to the eggs and chocolate bunnies, thanks.
I guess that means atheists have more sympathy for others than some theists. So why don't you put all us atheists in our place by proving there's a god!
So who exactly do you think determines who is 'real'? We all judge people by their words and actions. Now not one of you answered what qualities Trump possesses that highlight his christianity. Not a one! One of you said I wasn't a christian (how do you know?) All of you dodged and weaved and NOT ONE answer. Except the old 'nobody is perfect' from Texan. Which wasn't what I asked for, perfection isn't the metric used. Trumps character is what we look for. Values. Go for it. Why do evangelicals think Trump is the second coming?
Hey, it's your fantasy, you tell me. But common sense (which doesn't really go well with religion) tells me that the one that makes that determination would be the one that is worshiped. Now, being there is no proof of that person...
Using that standard that puts many "christians" on the same level as the fourth point of contact.
And you haven't answered the question as to what puts you into the position to make the call that he ISN'T a christian.
But then again, maybe you're right. He can't be a christian in that he hasn't threatened anybody into submission, he hasn't slaughtered thousands...
Like any other faith, you can call yourself a Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc but if you do not live by that faith, are you truly a member? Maybe, but in name only.
From everything I have read, one of the major requirements for being a Christian is repentance of one's sins. Trump has stated that he is unrepentant and has never asked for forgiveness of his sins. So YOU make the call. Can one be unrepentant and call oneself a Christian?
That's true. But with so many different interpretations and versions of the bible nobody knows what the real thing looks like.
Who determines what is a sin? Surely can't use the bible. Many things that are considered sins are done on a daily basis. Some, according to the bible, are supposed to have a death sentence attached.
I presume for Christians, it's the bible.
Why not? That's where Christians get their laws and doctrine isn't it? It's sure as hell where they get the verses they use to incessantly bludgeon gay people.
Yes, and by professed Christians.
Yet Xx insisted that:
Conveniently, all of those things, done on a daily basis, that are supposed to have a death sentence attached, now have a asterisk attached, all of course except homosexuality.
It's kid of funny that the bible seems to be the source of all their information and guidance yet they refuse to follow it 100%. But then again they can't settle on a version.
For all we know what they are worshiping is probably a really good pizza receipt.
Yet another example of duplicity. You routinely cry victimization yet put forth seeds in the public forum that are begging to be challenged.
Your opening comments:
You frame this as a seed respecting Easter, etc. and then immediately cry victimization. Then you provide a seed that starts with:
Posting seeds that are thinly veiled attacks and misrepresentations of NT members while crying 'victimization' is disingenuous.
I'm noticing a recurring pattern here.
Hard to imagine what point you think you are making by posting this video.
TiG - Honestly why does he need to be making a point? I thought it was pretty cool that they could all put together something like that each remotely while observing the rules of isolation in this difficult time. I think times are tough enough without us all being at each others throats and imagining some sort of ulterior motive in everything we say or do, wouldn't you agree?
Because he replied to my comment @8. If he had seeded the video or created a new thread in this seed (not a reply) that would be different. Given this was a reply I naturally wonder what he is trying to communicate to me.
Ah. OK. didn't follow the trail I guess. Still, doesn't look to me like any kind of response/rebuttal to your specific comment, just a video indicating how something as complex as a ensemble/choir can be handled remotely given today's technology. Maybe that was all he meant to communicate. Anyhoot, will be interesting to see his reply now.
Bingo! I posted it to Johns inspirational music seed as well as this one of mine. That they were able to put that complex piece together for us during these trying times brought tears to my eyes and renewed hope. It was awesome.
Exactly, I do not see how this applies to my comment. Ergo my question.
“I do not see” I placed this post on two of my seeds. It was uplifting, awesome, beautiful, and generates hope. You don’t see that?
I asked how this applies to my comment since you posted it as a REPLY to my comment.
Lol, oh the lashing out of the "faithful" as they see that their bullshit is not taking hold like it used to. What they call "militant secularism" is really just people saying 'why" and "explain" and then not buying it.
There have been deniers all through history since the beginning of the faith some for some 2000 years since Jesus created His new Church and directed that its message be taken to the gentiles.
Okay, denying is easy. So how about this, fucking PROVE it. PROVE the shit in the bible. The onus isn't on me.
Good luck getting anything even resembling a logical, coherent answer. Chances are all you'll get is evasion, strawmen, or just plain ignored.
It is on you. People will believe by faith and be saved or they won’t. There’s nothing more to it than that.
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In this discussion, you have stated intolerance and bigotry for homosexuals (okay with the death penalty for following their nature).
I figured you would ignore my reply @10.1.26 since your position is indefensible.
According to you, God thinks homosexual acts deserve the death penalty.
According to you, God thinks it is okay to own another human being as property.
There is no death penalty in the new covenant for violation of Gods law. So no, no one here is interested in stoning or otherwise killing gay people. Just because God no longer has a single nation that he is the direct leader of but of a global movement of people from every nation and no longer acting directly like before the cross, doesn’t mean that he changed His mind about such choices as gay behavior being wrong.
God doesn't call gays an abomination in the NT either. That's OT. Nice to see you cherry pick the bible to suit your own narrative.
How do you know this?
Wait WHAT? You JUST said:
Now you're saying there is a 'new covenant' that changes everything.
WHICH IS IT Xx?
The New Covenant is undefined. Christians continue to debate on what the New Covenant actually means. That is, you cannot point to any authoritative source that states which of the Mosaic laws (taken to be the core of the Christian Old Covenant) continue into the New Covenant and which do not. Further, your concept of the New Covenant is entirely inconsistent with the Old and New Covenants of Judaism. Your New Covenant notion is simply a deflection that you are parroting. In short, there is no defined New Covenant in Christianity, it is simply a vague idea.
You do not know what you are talking about here. You state with certainty that homosexual acts ARE an abomination per the NC but the death penalty is no longer in the NC yet you have no authoritative support for your claim.
How then can you state with utmost certainty that God considers male homosexual acts an abomination? If God has determined that the death sentence no longer applies then God might have determined that the act is no longer an abomination. How do you know? The answer is that you flat out do not know. You are again speaking as if you know the mind of the grandest possible entity yet have no facts to support your claims.
That is the excuse I expected. The Old and New Covenant line is akin to 'the Lord works in mysterious ways'. It is a cliche religious talking point to pull out when one paints oneself into a logical corner.
More self contradiction Xx.
Leviticus 20:13
So since you insist that he meant what he said why aren't you and your fellow travelers interested in following his instructions to the letter?
Male homosexual acts are an abomination but, apparently per XX, God has changed His omniscient mind on the penalty. Is God still is okay with owning a fellow human being as property? After all, slavery was the core of the economy at the time of Jesus and not once did Jesus condemn slavery as immoral. So even the vague excuse of 'New Covenant' does not apply.
So 'mysterious' that it has to be expressed with statements outside of scripture.
It's disingenuous cherry picking and oh so fucking convenient to insist that this 'new covenant' only 'decriminalizes' the sins of heterosexuals.
The contradictions are front and center. It does not take much to see that these beliefs are man-made. But some prefer to live their lives believing the words of ancient men with all the fantastic and contradictory claims and not a shred of supporting evidence.
Alternatively, one could believe that a sentient creator exists (just a belief) and leave it at that. No reliance on unsubstantiated ancient words that are absurdly contradictory. Instead, one could choose to use modern knowledge and try to learn about the creator by exploring that which the creator created. Science offers amazing insight into our created reality. Get to know God through God's work, not from the naive minds of ancient errant men with agendas.
While reciting interpretations of scripture in an attempt to condemn those who don't live their lives or believe in exactly the same way. THEN claiming they are the ones being persecuted because their chosen animus isn't sufficiently tolerated.
The law never changed. Neither did the consequences. We all know what the wages of sin is. It just won’t be us mortal sinners carrying it out since New Testament Times to the 2nd coming.
So God wants homosexuals put to death? By that reasoning, God is still okay with slavery.
God never wanted human beings to engage in slavery, homosexuality, or any other sin. He doesn’t want us to kill anyone ourselves over any issue with the possible exception of capital punishment for a capital crime. All other unrepentant sin will be dealt by God at the final judgement thus no need for for us to do anything as we don’t live in a theocracy like Israel was when the first five books of the Old Testament were written.
Didn't you.....all those who sit at the right hand of God are privy to read his thoughts, and get the inside dope on what he thinks.
Your comment is utterly contradictory Xx.
If the law and the consequences never changed, then God's instructions in Lev. 20:13 are clear. If you refuse to follow those instructions, YOU are defying your God.
God made plenty of rules for proper enslavement and not once, ever, did God tell His people that slavery is immoral. Not in the OT, not in the NT and even to this day not a single word from God condemning as immoral the practice of owning another human being as property.
That should give you pause. But it won't.
Did you forget that the Mosaic laws often have a death penalty? Two men engaging in sex carries a death penalty. You have yet to show how God's OT rule has changed. Note also that you are arguing that God (omniscient) changed His mind. That should also give you pause. But it won't.
The Bible is, based on the evidence, the result of men pretending to speak for God. Its contradictions and other flaws show it is not the word of a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent sentient entity. To treat it divine and use it to guide one's behavior (e.g. discrimination against homosexuals, denial of evolution, etc.) is IMO misguided.
Oh of course, [slaps forehead] silly me. Lol
So what 'capital crimes' Xx, those cited by God or those legislated by man?
Because if it's the latter, WHY are you blathering about homosexuality?
It's funny when someone says god doesn't change. If that were true, there would not be a NT. God clearly gets a makeover between the OT & NT. The NT itself is a change from the OT, which some claim is the "word of god." So if God changes, then that means god is not infallible. Or maybe it means the bible itself i's just the work of ancient men with pens and not actually the word of god. Of course, some theists will ignore such logical contradictions in order to maintain their dogmatic illusions (or delusions).
It is one of the glaring contradictions of the Bible. The Bible defines a God who is perfect, omniscient and omnipotent. A perfect sentient entity who knows everything would always have a perfect plan with 100% foresight. Perfect plans do not change, perfect minds do not change.
What continues to fascinate me is how those who take the Bible as literal and divine react to these contradictions.
It is an ancient book written and edited by ancient men by committees based on adapted stories from oral tradition and over thousands of years. If one truly wishes to understand the mind of a creator God (if one exists) one should study the reality God ostensibly created and not merely accept as truth the words of ancient (relatively naïve) men.
It's almost juvenile in its mentality: clinging to the bible or biblical stories as "divine" or literal while rejecting the logical inconsistencies and actual reality is almost like a child clinging to their teddy bear or something. It's preferring emotional or mental comfort over rationality or reason.
As usual, you offer nothing of value. No surprise either.
You hit it right on. Our guests on the other side perfectly demonstrated exactly how right on their title and the body of the seeded article really are. While politically the election of Trump and his judicial selections have slowed the other side in the political realm, in all other areas the secular progressive left has exceeded what the article describes them doing or trying to do to us.
Mixing politics and religion is not what the Bible says.
James 1:26 - If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Matthew 22:21 - They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Well we got a big W vs. the militants the other day:
First Liberty Institute announced this week it became the second law firm to sue on behalf of a second church in Greenville, where police officers shut down "drive-in" services after Mayor Errick Simmons ordered churches closed during the COVID-19 outbreak.
Late Thursday, in a statement, First Liberty thanked Mayor Simmons for "clarifying" that drive-in church services are allowed.
The law firm represented Pastor Charles Hamilton and his congregation at King James Bible Church.
OneNewsNow reported previously that members of the second church, Temple Baptist, were ticketed $500 by police while sitting in their automobiles listening to the pastor preach via the radio.
Alliance Defending Freedom is representing Temple Baptist in a separate federal lawsuit against the mayor. The status of that lawsuit is unknown.
At King James church, Pastor Hamilton video-recorded his confrontation with police officers and stated that eight officers were present to demand he shut down the service before it began.
Jeremy Dys, an attorney at First Liberty, says the order by Mayor Simmons singled out churches and therefore law enforcement officers targeted churches, too. Dys made his comments before the mayor backtracked.
“The Constitution did not give the mayor a doctor's note to do as he wishes,” Dys told OneNewsNow. “Government officials cannot send in the police just because a car is parked on a church parking lot instead of a liquor store."
Mayor Simmons defended his April 7 executive order to the media, including The New York Times, which reported on the controversy after the U.S. Dept. of Justice came to the defense of the two churches.
The police department dropped the tickets written at Temple Baptist, the Times reported days ago.
LGBTQ Site Says Coronavirus ‘Is Punishment for Conservative Christians’
A writer for a popular LGBTQ website argued this week the novel coronavirus is God’s “punishment for conservative Christians.”
Mark Segal, a contributor for LGBTQ Nation, penned an article published Wednesday, “If HIV was God’s punishment for gays, then coronavirus is punishment for conservative Christians.”
The crux of his piece hinges on the old (though hardly widespread) argument among some that HIV was somehow God’s direct punishment for homosexuality. With that fringe perspective in mind, Segal wrote:
Trying to back up his claim, Segal suggested San Francisco — a city “fundamentalists apparently consider … the capital of the LGBTQ world,” he wrote — has fewer COVID-19 cases and deaths than major international cities that hold religious significance.
“Now let’s compare and see what God’s wrath is,” he wrote. “San Francisco has under 1,000 cases and only 12 deaths. All of the headquarters cities of the world’s major religions, religions that at one point or another have discriminated against the LGBTQ community, have more cases and more deaths than San Francisco. San Francisco is the least affected of all the cities.”
As of 9 a.m. Friday, the City by the Bay, with a population just shy of 900,000 people, had 1,019 confirmed cases of coronavirus and 17 deaths, according to the San Francisco Department of Public Health. By comparison, Salt Lake City, Utah, which has a population of around 1.2 million people, has 1,388 confirmed cases and 13 deaths.
Yes. Which I think is kind of the point. Some conservative Christians have called hurricanes, AIDS, or other disasters "god's punishment [or wrath]" because of gays. Which is equally ridiculous. This just seems to be a case of gays throwing such nonsense back at conservative Christians.
I wonder if he agrees that it is ridiculous to blame conservative Christians for COVID-19.
More probable he'll claim such accusations are persecution against Christians.
A lot of people seem to think they know the mind of God. If an omniscient, omnipotent, perfect, eternal sentient creator of everything does exist, does it seem even remotely likely that any mere human being would have clue one about such a mind?
It is typical of the militant secularists viewpoint toward believers and thus of course it is ridiculous.
First, what makes you think that a 'militant secularist' would believe in God?
Second, if one can get past the first question, why would you think that such a person would think God would attack conservative Christians who follow His word in the OT?
Even God can't prevent stupid.
It seems in certain cases, god might be the direct cause of it.
Even the Creator proved that. It takes all kinds to make up the world. If only everybody met everyone's approval we wouldn't have to get on our high horses and talk them down as we all do, all to often as a species.
True. Very true. And perhaps in some cases intentionally.
If one goes by the bible, god intentionally wanted us stupid. His grudge against humanity started because we gained knowledge. Perhaps some people try to appease god by being stupid? Or at least willfully ignorant?
I don't think that their God has anything to do with it. It is more likely just the lack of desire to think for themselves....or.....the lack of ability to think for themselves. I don't think God would want to make them that stupid on a grudge. Some are able to be that way without any help from their supernatural being.
Believing in a god and/or bible, especially if more literally, definitely requires a suspension or lack of critical and rational thought and a rejection of facts and reason. But God didn't make man stupid on a grudge. God supposedly created man to be stupid from the get go. It's only after man gained knowledge that God held a grudge. And some people worship such a petty, vindictive god? Yep, certainly a lack of reason and rationality.